"Come back to me when you have found something worth my time"
What the hell is that? Who says that early on in Day 1? Well, who says that it someone who either (1) doesn't understand how the game is played or (2) someone who wants to sit back and not say anything. Who wants to be reactive and not proactive. Who doesn't want to scum-hunt, but wants other people to do it and then (presumably) comment on it. The former could be anything, the latter is more likely scum. I'm not "twisting" anything.
To clarify, it was a stupid thing to say and we can all rag on Void for saying it, but it doesn't make him scum
The fact that scum are typically really self conscious about their play makes me believe he wouldn't be bad enough to admit to actively lurking. There is WIFOM, but I agree with plum that it doesn't make him scum. If he continues to be entirely reactive and is never proactive I will reevaluate, but this early in the game I'm not seeing the push.
RE: Dag - This is my top scum read so far. He does seem self-conscious and I don't like the attitude of being apologetic and appeasing everyone. His OMGUS vote is also pretty bad. I'm good with a vote here right now.
Unvote
Vote: Dag
I would like to hear AE's reasoning for pushing a guild claim.
@Axel & AI: How does your concern regarding Void's post fit when applied to a player of Void's experience?
I'm going to confess to not being especially up to date with Void's experience. What is it? If you want to tell me he's known for sitting back on day 1 and kvetching about how there's nothing worth talking about early on - well, I'll happily reevaluate.
@Cantripmancer: Void is not experienced in the sense that Axelrod is, for instance, but he's experienced enough to understand the basic dynamics of the game. He's certainly experienced enough to realize that taking a nap and hanging up a sign that says "Do Not Disturb (Unless Someone Claims Scum)" is a huge red flag. So unless you think he's town misplaying deliberately, I'm not sure where the confusion lies.
To both of you: If Void is an experienced player, you're essentially saying that he, as scum, thought he could get away with an obv-scum ploy of :munch:ing while the town fumble around each other AND that he would be obvious enough to say so. I think it's much more likely that--as masterplum mentioned--he just made a casual, sincere comment as town.
SNL is tripping my scumdar. Not liking the AI/Axelrod push on Void, either.
Well, what bothers you - specifically.
About SNL: I'd like him to respond to my last question first.
Regarding you/AI pushing Void, it feels like you're applying an overgeneralized scumtell to an experienced player who is likely familiar with that scumtell without considering that it's a scumtell that could come from town.
To both of you: If Void is an experienced player, you're essentially saying that he, as scum, thought he could get away with an obv-scum ploy of :munch:ing while the town fumble around each other AND that he would be obvious enough to say so. I think it's much more likely that--as masterplum mentioned--he just made a casual, sincere comment as town.
This reads like some kind of mathematical theorem. Are you telling me he's experienced or not?
Regarding you/AI pushing Void, it feels like you're applying an overgeneralized scumtell to an experienced player who is likely familiar with that scumtell without considering that it's a scumtell that could come from town.
What's odd to me is that it's like, you're recognizing this is a scummy thing to do, but immediately WIFOMing it away saying "but, as an experienced player, he wouldn't do this as scum...."
Which leaves him doing it as Town as an experienced player which is...still bad? Why would an experienced Townie say something so stupid? I mean, it's all well and good to say, well, I think, of the two options, it's more likely that he said something dumb as Town than as scum, because experience. You may be right. But it's very early and I'll take the scummy comment/attitude for now and not wrap myself in knots next leveling it just yet. Void is welcome to do something to change my mind. So far, his OMGUS vote hasn't impressed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Town drop scumtells all the time because they don't care. Especially easy overgeneralized ones like reacting to votes and declaring absence and stuff like that. Heck, even screwed up claims come form town occasionally.
The biggest town meltdowns are always when stuff like that is latched upon.
There is nothing wrong with saying that Void is experienced so he probably wouldn't do something stupid. Of course it's WIFOM, but WIFOM means you have to be careful, not that you ignore it, otherwise you would never be able to lynch someone ever. Even people with cop scans you could say, but that person could be scum gambitting a scan! Better not listen to him to be safe
Mafia is not a game of ignoring WIFOM, it is a game of being able to carefully filter what WIFOM you are going to value.
I want to make one point very clear though that I think I have failed to mention:
This in no way makes Void town. In fact he very well could be scum.
But this does not tell us anything one way or another. I could say that Axelrod is scum because he has 7 letters in his name and this game hates 7's and unfortunately I would still have a ...what do we have here? 4 or 5/16 chance of being right.
Oh hey, anyone mention a guild claim? If not why not? I'll be back later to push it. Or to join in.
I'm strongly against a guild claim. I expect the mafia have at least one ability reliant on other players' guilds, and the scum have a slim chance of being caught for lying about their affiliation, though it could help us catch them if they attract suspicion themselves (but if they do, do we really need the extra info?).
This attitude of "I'll start paying attention when there's something worth talking about and right now this isn't worth my time" is not particularly Town. I'd even go so far to say it shows a legit scum-mentality.
To answer your question though it wasn't that I would need to see a scum flip (although that wouldn't hurt). It's that we'll be in a better position if today's lynch is scum and thus have more "room for error."
We already know that guilds aren't aligned with town vs. scum. So scum can claim their real guilds and be no worse off.
The only people helped by guild claims would be scum and town power, and scum has 4 times or so more roles to work with figuring out how best to use the information
You can get me to claim my guild if you want. But I'll lie.
To answer your question though it wasn't that I would need to see a scum flip (although that wouldn't hurt). It's that we'll be in a better position if today's lynch is scum and thus have more "room for error."
I don't get why you see it in a bad light. Saying room for error. Why would we be tripping over ourselves claiming guilds?
Also I've never played with Plum before but could he really be this bad as scum? If he's newb scum then I can see him flailing and fearmongering like this.
The problem with town having use from guild names as well as scum is that town doesn't know which guild players matter while scum does.
Example: Town Golgari player who can scan non Golgari players alignments is going to be helped minimally, he can eliminate a couple bad scans but odds of scanning scum don't really change.
Rakdos mafia player who can't kill other Rakdos guild mates is now in awesome shape. He now knows both who is town and also who he can and can't target.
I completely made up those roles, but you can see in any type of role how scum gain more advantage then town in claiming.
The only real upside of guild claiming is it locks scum into a guild, but if we want to do that then it is much more advantageous to just all out mass. Guild only claims are the worst of both worlds
Nothing? You think we can't find scum with good, old-fashioned behavioral analysis? We have nothing if we don't mass claim something, meaning we need to mass claim in order to catch scum?
And you don't think that Town can have similar role as well?
I do, that's where the slim chance to catch liars comes in: the town PRs that care about guilds. And even then, would we know the difference between an ability that failed because of a scum lie and a roleblock?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I want to make one point very clear though that I think I have failed to mention:
This in no way makes Void town. In fact he very well could be scum.
But this does not tell us anything one way or another. I could say that Axelrod is scum because he has 7 letters in his name and this game hates 7's and unfortunately I would still have a ...what do we have here? 4 or 5/16 chance of being right.
That really only makes sense in the realm where you can type and pull up the player list simultaneously.
I see.
unvote
You say you're not self-conscious after specifically stating "for the record" and the way you responded to scarbo/swishh? You said "For the record: one naked vote during RVS doesn't make me nervous". That's pretty much the most self-conscious statement I've ever seen, and the OMGUS vote is little better.
Also, is there a particular reason you made that last comment?
Just to be on the safe side, I looked up all of Voids posts again.
Yea, there is nothing there that I can see. He seems a tad persnickety but he is being attacked for stupid reasons so that doesn't seem to be a completely unreasonable response.
Dagaen, you are not at all yourself this game. In SW mafia, I had no issue putting you in my very probably town pile. But this game, there's all kinds of weirdness coming from you. You say you're not self-conscious, but even your last post began and ended (not counting that weird "I see" part) with comments on how YOU are affected. If I had to guess, it's because you've got an ability. That's not inherently bad or good, but I'm a lot more cautious than free-wheeling.
Vote Dagaen
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
To both of you: If Void is an experienced player, you're essentially saying that he, as scum, thought he could get away with an obv-scum ploy of :munch:ing while the town fumble around each other AND that he would be obvious enough to say so. I think it's much more likely that--as masterplum mentioned--he just made a casual, sincere comment as town.
This reads like some kind of mathematical theorem. Are you telling me he's experienced or not?
Regarding you/AI pushing Void, it feels like you're applying an overgeneralized scumtell to an experienced player who is likely familiar with that scumtell without considering that it's a scumtell that could come from town.
What's odd to me is that it's like, you're recognizing this is a scummy thing to do, but immediately WIFOMing it away saying "but, as an experienced player, he wouldn't do this as scum...."
Which leaves him doing it as Town as an experienced player which is...still bad? Why would an experienced Townie say something so stupid? I mean, it's all well and good to say, well, I think, of the two options, it's more likely that he said something dumb as Town than as scum, because experience. You may be right. But it's very early and I'll take the scummy comment/attitude for now and not wrap myself in knots next leveling it just yet. Void is welcome to do something to change my mind. So far, his OMGUS vote hasn't impressed.
Dagaen, you are not at all yourself this game. In SW mafia, I had no issue putting you in my very probably town pile. But this game, there's all kinds of weirdness coming from you. You say you're not self-conscious, but even your last post began and ended (not counting that weird "I see" part) with comments on how YOU are affected. If I had to guess, it's because you've got an ability. That's not inherently bad or good, but I'm a lot more cautious than free-wheeling.
Vote Dagaen
This wagon is pointless. If you can't figure out why, reread Dagaen's first post.
And you were completely townie in that one game. There's no reason for you to change between two games so close to each other other than factors within the game. As I said, it's likely an ability. Whether that's a "Talk to your allies and NK" ability or a "Doc a person" ability is up in the air. My cautious side says go with the first.
Why do you care so much who is voting you? What about the first few arguments made you feel like you must respond?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
You mean his VERY first post, or his first post with actual content. Because the first was an RVS silly crap, and I never base my decisions solely on those...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I don't really care WHO is voting me, I just care WHY. And somehow I feel that my input is relevant when discussion is focusing around me;) I've just counted 8 posts between #37 nad #60 with my name in it, I think that's quite much.
Oh, and since you've mentioned one day we were playing: when Generic accused me I also faced his vote immediately.
Btw, you've mentioned "talk to your allies" ability. This wouldn't affect my play if this wasn't a day-chat. How do you know scums have a day-chat?
Ok, you care why someone else is voting. What does that have to do with you beyond them voting you? It's not scum-hunting when trying to explain your own actions. You're not trying to find out why, but convince not to vote. So again, what about the first arguments made you feel like you had to respond?
Did I say day-chat or "talk to your allies during the day"? You'll have to show me where. Because I'm pretty sure I said:
It's not the MafiaChat itself that affects your action, it's that you aren't a vanilla town. Your mindset is not of the single-purpose "find mafia". When I read you, I get the sense that you want to avoid being lynched far more than is normal. Which brings us to the second question. It's definitely not a good thing when town gets lynched, but A) this early in the game, no one will lynch you, and B) town vanillas being lynched is the smallest loss the town can take, yet it provides the same amount of information as a PR lynch does. So while defending yourself is fine (and why I haven't hounded you over the responses to these questions), there is such a thing as going too far.
So the short version: You focused a lot on yourself > appeared to be more preservationist than VT should > hence, the votes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I've still got more positive vibes from Dagaen than negative. The "self-conscious" accusation may be my least favorite reason to vote someone of all reasons of all time.
And I'm not in favor of a mass guild claim at this time either. I get there are some Town roles that could probably use the info. By the same token there are almost certainly scum roles that can use it. Trying to guess which is better is just that - guessing. And scum ability to coordinate means they have the edge there as far as I can see. If someone wants to make a better argument why a mass claim helps more than hurts, I'll listen. Seems like "locking the scum into a guild claim" isn't an especially good one though, given that alignments appear to be independent of guilds.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You mean his VERY first post, or his first post with actual content. Because the first was an RVS silly crap, and I never base my decisions solely on those...
I think you are splitting hairs a bit then. Your theory is correct, but I sometimes call people obv town as town due to reads but I don't say that's why I am doing it.
You are posting with a genuine lack of guile that is impossible to fake.
How do you know it's genuine? Maybe I'm just really good at faking it? I don't like the word "obvTown" and your certainty, only scums know who is Town and who is not. It's one thing to have a good read on someone, but being so sure is a whole another case.
unvote
AsianInvasion
You don't strike me as a player of high skill so I doubt you're faking anything.
Back from weekend, will post actual content shortly. However, would like to derail the mass--guild-claim idea for something else that occurred to me. I (giving out a little information) got my first choice of guild. I am curious if others did as well. What do people think about just claiming that bit of info?
TK's push felt a little off to me, but after rereading it it does seem genuine. TK, what do you make of Dag's more recent posts?
KK's defensiveness, while a bit dramatic, doesn't feel forced and I like him for town right now.
@Dag - Do you have any other reads right now other than AI is scummy for calling you obvtown?
@Selesnya - You have any reads right now? Your posts seem to be only replying about theory stuff.
@AE - You said you were going to push the guild claim, but you have done nothing other than question people on their opinions of it. Why do you think it's such a good idea?
How he replied to the pressure. It's direct and feels honest, he doesn't seem to be sidestepping anything or making excuses. Also, the way he is questioning both people that have town reads on him as well as the people applying the pressure. It's consistent with his statement that he wants to know why people have the reads they do and not just who is voting him.
I'm still not obvtown on him like AI, but I am content enough with his reaction to pressure that I am going to look elsewhere for the time being.
Town
KoolKoal - for posting in Japanese
Dagaen - for being easy to read (I think)
scarbo - for taking a run at Axelrod based on almost nothing
masterplum - for the way he is talking during his second game, and brainstorming roles publicly
Cantripmancer - for making mistakes (this goes away if scarbo is scum)
Archmage Eternal - for not pushing as hard as he can
scum:
Hunger - for seeming to have an agenda
Void - for WIFOMingly saying he wasn't going to participate, thus trying to score townie points
Axelrod - for accepting Void's post at face value
TK - for fishing on Dagaen
To both of you: If Void is an experienced player, you're essentially saying that he, as scum, thought he could get away with an obv-scum ploy of :munch:ing while the town fumble around each other AND that he would be obvious enough to say so. I think it's much more likely that--as masterplum mentioned--he just made a casual, sincere comment as town.
This reads like some kind of mathematical theorem. Are you telling me he's experienced or not?
Regarding you/AI pushing Void, it feels like you're applying an overgeneralized scumtell to an experienced player who is likely familiar with that scumtell without considering that it's a scumtell that could come from town.
What's odd to me is that it's like, you're recognizing this is a scummy thing to do, but immediately WIFOMing it away saying "but, as an experienced player, he wouldn't do this as scum...."
Which leaves him doing it as Town as an experienced player which is...still bad? Why would an experienced Townie say something so stupid? I mean, it's all well and good to say, well, I think, of the two options, it's more likely that he said something dumb as Town than as scum, because experience. You may be right. But it's very early and I'll take the scummy comment/attitude for now and not wrap myself in knots next leveling it just yet. Void is welcome to do something to change my mind. So far, his OMGUS vote hasn't impressed.
I agree with Axelrod who agrees with me.
To respond to both of you, then: My concern comes from you taking an element that I see as null (from an experienced player) and pushing that player as scum. It feels weak, like you're trying to find a handhold where you don't believe there is one.
Dagaen, you are not at all yourself this game. In SW mafia, I had no issue putting you in my very probably town pile. But this game, there's all kinds of weirdness coming from you. You say you're not self-conscious, but even your last post began and ended (not counting that weird "I see" part) with comments on how YOU are affected. If I had to guess, it's because you've got an ability. That's not inherently bad or good, but I'm a lot more cautious than free-wheeling.
Vote Dagaen
This wagon is pointless. If you can't figure out why, reread Dagaen's first post.
I agree that the wagon's pointless, but what do you see in Dagaen's first post that convinces you?
[quote from="SelesnyaNewLife" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/546463-return-to-ravnica-day-one-search-the-city?comment=86"]
[quote from="Cantripmancer" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/546463-return-to-ravnica-day-one-search-the-city?comment=55"]What's the point of voting in RVS if you're not making a joke?
Because it's RVS. You randomly vote during the random voting section.
I...guess I'm just not used to naked RVS votes. It felt odd, like you were trying to hide in plain sight.
TK's push on Dagaen seems highly questionable to me. TK starts with calling Dagaen out as playing different from Star Wars (where he was vanilla town):
Dagaen, you are not at all yourself this game. In SW mafia, I had no issue putting you in my very probably town pile. But this game, there's all kinds of weirdness coming from you. You say you're not self-conscious, but even your last post began and ended (not counting that weird "I see" part) with comments on how YOU are affected. If I had to guess, it's because you've got an ability. That's not inherently bad or good, but I'm a lot more cautious than free-wheeling.
Vote Dagaen
So the first thing TK does is identify that there's different behavior. TK says he thinks that's because Dagaen has an ability (fishing in the process), but leaps to that ability being a scum ability and votes him.
And you were completely townie in that one game. There's no reason for you to change between two games so close to each other other than factors within the game. As I said, it's likely an ability. Whether that's a "Talk to your allies and NK" ability or a "Doc a person" ability is up in the air. My cautious side says go with the first.
Why do you care so much who is voting you? What about the first few arguments made you feel like you must respond?
And then this post he says that the only explainable reason for such a difference in play between games is because Dagaen must be different alignments, even though TK previously said that he suspected the difference was because Dagaen has an ability. I'm thinking TK needs a bit more scrutiny; I think I'll bend my efforts in that direction.
EBWODP: Oh, and I identified two guilds as my top pick, in format "A or B" and got B.
@RobRoy: What mistake do you think I made, and why does making a mistake make me town? Also, I accepted Void's post at face value; why is Axel scum for that?
Um...and the "(I think)" sorta diminishes the confidence of your read on Dagaen...
Town
KoolKoal - for posting in Japanese
Dagaen - for being easy to read (I think)
scarbo - for taking a run at Axelrod based on almost nothing
masterplum - for the way he is talking during his second game, and brainstorming roles publicly
Cantripmancer - for making mistakes (this goes away if scarbo is scum)
Archmage Eternal - for not pushing as hard as he can
scum:
Hunger - for seeming to have an agenda
Void - for WIFOMingly saying he wasn't going to participate, thus trying to score townie points
Axelrod - for accepting Void's post at face value
TK - for fishing on Dagaen
So, let's leave that vote on Axel for now.
Have an actual read on KK, or is that your real reason for finding him Town?
Why does scarbo taking a run at Axel make him town?
Why does AE not pushing as hard as he can make him town? What do you think he could be pushing harder?
What makes you think I have an agenda? What do you think that agenda is?
Why is Axel scummy for taking Void's post at face value?
Rob, I think you might be right about the void training having some value. I bet we could find something good to go off of from.
I'm super busy today and tomorrow, and then I go out of town a week from today for 4 days. I would very much like day 1 to end before I leave if we can shoot for that
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think this makes sense:
The fact that scum are typically really self conscious about their play makes me believe he wouldn't be bad enough to admit to actively lurking. There is WIFOM, but I agree with plum that it doesn't make him scum. If he continues to be entirely reactive and is never proactive I will reevaluate, but this early in the game I'm not seeing the push.
RE: Dag - This is my top scum read so far. He does seem self-conscious and I don't like the attitude of being apologetic and appeasing everyone. His OMGUS vote is also pretty bad. I'm good with a vote here right now.
Unvote
Vote: Dag
I would like to hear AE's reasoning for pushing a guild claim.
To both of you: If Void is an experienced player, you're essentially saying that he, as scum, thought he could get away with an obv-scum ploy of :munch:ing while the town fumble around each other AND that he would be obvious enough to say so. I think it's much more likely that--as masterplum mentioned--he just made a casual, sincere comment as town.
About SNL: I'd like him to respond to my last question first.
Regarding you/AI pushing Void, it feels like you're applying an overgeneralized scumtell to an experienced player who is likely familiar with that scumtell without considering that it's a scumtell that could come from town.
What was this in response to?
My internet access for the rest of the weekend will be spotty at best.
This reads like some kind of mathematical theorem. Are you telling me he's experienced or not?
What's odd to me is that it's like, you're recognizing this is a scummy thing to do, but immediately WIFOMing it away saying "but, as an experienced player, he wouldn't do this as scum...."
Which leaves him doing it as Town as an experienced player which is...still bad? Why would an experienced Townie say something so stupid? I mean, it's all well and good to say, well, I think, of the two options, it's more likely that he said something dumb as Town than as scum, because experience. You may be right. But it's very early and I'll take the scummy comment/attitude for now and not wrap myself in knots next leveling it just yet. Void is welcome to do something to change my mind. So far, his OMGUS vote hasn't impressed.
The biggest town meltdowns are always when stuff like that is latched upon.
There is nothing wrong with saying that Void is experienced so he probably wouldn't do something stupid. Of course it's WIFOM, but WIFOM means you have to be careful, not that you ignore it, otherwise you would never be able to lynch someone ever. Even people with cop scans you could say, but that person could be scum gambitting a scan! Better not listen to him to be safe
Mafia is not a game of ignoring WIFOM, it is a game of being able to carefully filter what WIFOM you are going to value.
This in no way makes Void town. In fact he very well could be scum.
But this does not tell us anything one way or another. I could say that Axelrod is scum because he has 7 letters in his name and this game hates 7's and unfortunately I would still have a ...what do we have here? 4 or 5/16 chance of being right.
Is it just me or does this little bit feel forced?
Such short comings, expand your thoughts. But first tell me what is so dumb about it?
Why do you need to see a scum flip first? Why would you need to see any flip first?
Only when it's helpful.
Yes we do. We have nothing to go on right now.
Not at all. Let's start locking players in place now. this is the easiest less intrusive way to start.
Then that's a shame. But I'm here to see it for you.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
which I did
In a second tab
At all
We already know that guilds aren't aligned with town vs. scum. So scum can claim their real guilds and be no worse off.
The only people helped by guild claims would be scum and town power, and scum has 4 times or so more roles to work with figuring out how best to use the information
You can get me to claim my guild if you want. But I'll lie.
I guarantee it.
I don't get why you see it in a bad light. Saying room for error. Why would we be tripping over ourselves claiming guilds?
Also I've never played with Plum before but could he really be this bad as scum? If he's newb scum then I can see him flailing and fearmongering like this.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Example: Town Golgari player who can scan non Golgari players alignments is going to be helped minimally, he can eliminate a couple bad scans but odds of scanning scum don't really change.
Rakdos mafia player who can't kill other Rakdos guild mates is now in awesome shape. He now knows both who is town and also who he can and can't target.
I completely made up those roles, but you can see in any type of role how scum gain more advantage then town in claiming.
The only real upside of guild claiming is it locks scum into a guild, but if we want to do that then it is much more advantageous to just all out mass. Guild only claims are the worst of both worlds
I do, that's where the slim chance to catch liars comes in: the town PRs that care about guilds. And even then, would we know the difference between an ability that failed because of a scum lie and a roleblock?
I notice you don't state an opinion. Why?
You say you're not self-conscious after specifically stating "for the record" and the way you responded to scarbo/swishh? You said "For the record: one naked vote during RVS doesn't make me nervous". That's pretty much the most self-conscious statement I've ever seen, and the OMGUS vote is little better.
Also, is there a particular reason you made that last comment?
@SNL: I believe you didn't answer my question.
But people have made dumb luck trains on scum before. I'm not saying that is out of the question.
Yea, there is nothing there that I can see. He seems a tad persnickety but he is being attacked for stupid reasons so that doesn't seem to be a completely unreasonable response.
Vote Dagaen
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I agree with Axelrod who agrees with me.
This wagon is pointless. If you can't figure out why, reread Dagaen's first post.
Why do you care so much who is voting you? What about the first few arguments made you feel like you must respond?
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Ok, you care why someone else is voting. What does that have to do with you beyond them voting you? It's not scum-hunting when trying to explain your own actions. You're not trying to find out why, but convince not to vote. So again, what about the first arguments made you feel like you had to respond?
Did I say day-chat or "talk to your allies during the day"? You'll have to show me where. Because I'm pretty sure I said:
I put no time rider or some such. Saying I mentioned a day-chat is at best a deflection, and at worst, trying to twist my words.
Naughty naughty.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
So the short version: You focused a lot on yourself > appeared to be more preservationist than VT should > hence, the votes.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
And I'm not in favor of a mass guild claim at this time either. I get there are some Town roles that could probably use the info. By the same token there are almost certainly scum roles that can use it. Trying to guess which is better is just that - guessing. And scum ability to coordinate means they have the edge there as far as I can see. If someone wants to make a better argument why a mass claim helps more than hurts, I'll listen. Seems like "locking the scum into a guild claim" isn't an especially good one though, given that alignments appear to be independent of guilds.
AsianInvasion (1): Cythare
Axelrod (2): RobRoy, Void
masterplum (1): KoolKoal
Dagaen (4): Sir Karn, Scarbo, Hunger, TK-421
Void (2): AsianInvasion, Axelrod
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch!
Please inform me if there is an error with any vote count.
Maybe you should.
"Rolename" as in "Jace, Architect of Thought" not "Bulletproof Jester Vigilante."
Dagaen is so obvtown it hurts.
You don't strike me as a player of high skill so I doubt you're faking anything.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Unvote
I'll get to actual stuff in a bit.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Unvote
TK's push felt a little off to me, but after rereading it it does seem genuine. TK, what do you make of Dag's more recent posts?
KK's defensiveness, while a bit dramatic, doesn't feel forced and I like him for town right now.
@Dag - Do you have any other reads right now other than AI is scummy for calling you obvtown?
@Selesnya - You have any reads right now? Your posts seem to be only replying about theory stuff.
@AE - You said you were going to push the guild claim, but you have done nothing other than question people on their opinions of it. Why do you think it's such a good idea?
RobRoy: Yeah, I'm fine with claiming that. I got my first choice as well.
Why exactly?
I'm still not obvtown on him like AI, but I am content enough with his reaction to pressure that I am going to look elsewhere for the time being.
I gave two choices for guild and I got one those two. I suppose I can say that much. Don't see how it hurts
What was up with the track result that went terribly last game
Town
KoolKoal - for posting in Japanese
Dagaen - for being easy to read (I think)
scarbo - for taking a run at Axelrod based on almost nothing
masterplum - for the way he is talking during his second game, and brainstorming roles publicly
Cantripmancer - for making mistakes (this goes away if scarbo is scum)
Archmage Eternal - for not pushing as hard as he can
scum:
Hunger - for seeming to have an agenda
Void - for WIFOMingly saying he wasn't going to participate, thus trying to score townie points
Axelrod - for accepting Void's post at face value
TK - for fishing on Dagaen
So, let's leave that vote on Axel for now.
Seriously? Are you saying we're *not* in that kind of realm?
To respond to both of you, then: My concern comes from you taking an element that I see as null (from an experienced player) and pushing that player as scum. It feels weak, like you're trying to find a handhold where you don't believe there is one.
I agree that the wagon's pointless, but what do you see in Dagaen's first post that convinces you?
...once TK responds, I want to come back to this.
I...guess I'm just not used to naked RVS votes. It felt odd, like you were trying to hide in plain sight.
Which was...?
====================================================
TK's push on Dagaen seems highly questionable to me. TK starts with calling Dagaen out as playing different from Star Wars (where he was vanilla town):
So the first thing TK does is identify that there's different behavior. TK says he thinks that's because Dagaen has an ability (fishing in the process), but leaps to that ability being a scum ability and votes him.
And then this post he says that the only explainable reason for such a difference in play between games is because Dagaen must be different alignments, even though TK previously said that he suspected the difference was because Dagaen has an ability. I'm thinking TK needs a bit more scrutiny; I think I'll bend my efforts in that direction.
@RobRoy: What mistake do you think I made, and why does making a mistake make me town? Also, I accepted Void's post at face value; why is Axel scum for that?
Um...and the "(I think)" sorta diminishes the confidence of your read on Dagaen...
None of those reads are terribly solid, really.
Have an actual read on KK, or is that your real reason for finding him Town?
Why does scarbo taking a run at Axel make him town?
Why does AE not pushing as hard as he can make him town? What do you think he could be pushing harder?
What makes you think I have an agenda? What do you think that agenda is?
Why is Axel scummy for taking Void's post at face value?
I'm super busy today and tomorrow, and then I go out of town a week from today for 4 days. I would very much like day 1 to end before I leave if we can shoot for that