We also havent heard from AE in forever, and while the townslip and the lynch me thing are worth some town cred, it's not so much towncred where I want to see him coast forever.
Then go back to voting ER? I have a strong townread on the Rodemy slot, others (maybe only Delilah, but whatever) feel the same way and thus if you're even on both the better vote is still probably ER.
Remember that a scum lynch D1 would be ****ing huge, so it's extremely important we get the right one today. Be picky with your lynches.
I don't think that his play makes any sense at all for someone who is the only member of their team and has to survive to win. When people are saying that he is playing too ridiculous to be town, proper adjustment is not to engage in a 1v1 he will never win then immediately start playing chicken with a bunch of townies + 1 arsonist. The best argument I have seen for him being scum is that he's not playing normally, and yet he offered up an excuse for that I am satisfied with and am pretty confident he isn't lying about, thus strong townread. Why do you think he's scum again?
@Iso, Re: Karn
My problem with Karn is that in every game except this one, I've been non-town and read him as the easiest mislynch target. He would characteristically overreact to everything and have trouble supporting his views in a coherent way. Maybe finally seeing him from the town perspective makes him look different to me, but I'm not entirely comfortable with how differently he reads to me in this game compared to KS & Astarte.
Dredge up some posts for comparison to show me what you mean.
Quote from ExpiredRascals »
@The Rodemy Thing:
I'm not comfortable with this. The more I read it, the more it looks like Iso in KS.
How so?
Quote from ExpiredRascals »
Iso's push on Rodemy looks a lot like Iso's "prey on those least likely to be able to defend themselves" strategy from his scumgame.
Garbage. I'm attacking who I think is scum; whether they're a weak player or not has nothing to do with it, particularly considering I've showed I'm not adverse to going after the big fish when I'm scum, either.
I'm trying to use my empathy skills, but I'm having a hard time processing what just happened.
1. Iso presents some kind of case against Rodemy that was light enough that I don't remember it (not to say it wasn't serious, just that I didn't pay much attention at the time).
2. Three people jump on, which is fair, because maybe the case has merit or maybe they're looking to make something happen because they're bored or arsonists.
3. Rodemy goes completely ballistic over basically nothing.
So sangry. Everyone needs to chillax a little.
Incidentally, I don't think Rodemy is scum.
vote ER
This is the kind of post that scum make. IGMEOY now, Ged.
Note: I didn't vote Rodemy because of Iso's 'case' (hell, I didn't even know Iso made one).
I feel like Rodemy is acting SO ridiculous because he knows how it has worked to give him town cred before. But it's getting old, and he definitely knows better by now - along with the fact that it feels off. It's just not the same old Derpdemy I remember from his first couple of town games. It's like, he's trying to recreate that and is going even further over the top.
Rodemy and I have discussed his meta IRL extensively.
Now, as for the Rodemy question: I have trouble being scum being so suicidal so early. I can see Rodemy freaking out about Iso pegging him early, yes, but the reaction I would expect after that would be silence and hope to lurk off the wagon as opposed to defiance against Iso, antagonizing Iso, then meltdown. Some people have brought up the possibility of Rodemy acting completely ridiculous in a gambit for towncred, but here the risk:reward is utter **** considering Rodemy loses if he gets lynched and is an arsonist. I also understand that he is known to try to get away with acting ridiculous in order to appear town, but I will note that the suicidal tendencies are riskier than anything he pulled in Apocalypse Mafia (yeah, I read that) and in an environment where Arsonists would be looking to minimize risk. I would also like to see Rodemy acting this suicidal as scum so cases can be backed up a bit better.
Rodemy also doesn't know how to handle pressure. Go see where he got lynched in Drury Lane Mafia.
Gimme two days to cool off. I'm bitter around the holidays since my wife left me 2 years ago during then.
Once you get back, if you're not an Arsonist, level with me. Address my concerns about your play and work with me through this if you're town and you actually want to win this game.
And Rodemy gives a reason for why he's been touchy for no clear reason around this time of year, meaning all "Rodemy is acting weird and thus arsonist" arguments are officially dead.
I'm not willing to discount that possibility. It sounds a lot like something he did in Apoc.
We also havent heard from AE in forever, and while the townslip and the lynch me thing are worth some town cred, it's not so much towncred where I want to see him coast forever.
Then go back to voting ER? I have a strong townread on the Rodemy slot, others (maybe only Delilah, but whatever) feel the same way and thus if you're even on both the better vote is still probably ER.
Remember that a scum lynch D1 would be ****ing huge, so it's extremely important we get the right one today. Be picky with your lynches.
I don't think that his play makes any sense at all for someone who is the only member of their team and has to survive to win. When people are saying that he is playing too ridiculous to be town, proper adjustment is not to engage in a 1v1 he will never win then immediately start playing chicken with a bunch of townies + 1 arsonist. The best argument I have seen for him being scum is that he's not playing normally, and yet he offered up an excuse for that I am satisfied with and am pretty confident he isn't lying about, thus strong townread. Why do you think he's scum again?
That's not why I think he's an Arsonist. I think he's an Arsonist because he's acting like he does when he's scum.
-
Anyway, if we're not lynching Rodemy, I have nagging Hunger feelings (maybe I should go eat! :rimshot:), so I would much rather lynch him than ER. I'll chalk that one up to Paradigm Shift.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Honestly, I just reskimmed the whole thread to try and find the case so I could remember it and then explain why I remembered not liking it, and I couldn't find any case at all. I remember there being one, but if it's small enough that I couldn't find it and it's unmemorable enough that I don't remember it after doing this same thing yesterday, I'm sufficiently unimpressed by it.
I feel like Rodemy is acting SO ridiculous because he knows how it has worked to give him town cred before.
If he's lynched and shows up Arsonist, I'd believe this. But right now I don't particularly care about old data.
Still comfortable with a vote on ER for now, still for the inconsistency pointed out by Void.
I have this case on Iso I'm building, but I can't tell whether it's him being scummy or just him being the way he is. The argument is that
1. Arsonists are just trying to lynch anyone they can.
2. Iso has been spreading around a lot of suspicion and following up wherever it sticks.
3. Therefore Iso is acting like an arsonist.
The problem is that Iso tactics as town tend to be "questions, questions everywhere, then see who has scummy answers", and I can't tell which thing he's doing this game. Does anyone else, maybe someone with more recent experience with him, have an opinion on this?
Oh, and Iso, I do feel like (assuming you're town) you've done that thing where you ask a lot of questions to see what sticks, but what has stuck is something on someone who is merely very excitable and not scummy.
I have this case on Iso I'm building, but I can't tell whether it's him being scummy or just him being the way he is. The argument is that
1. Arsonists are just trying to lynch anyone they can.
2. Iso has been spreading around a lot of suspicion and following up wherever it sticks.
3. Therefore Iso is acting like an arsonist.
The problem is that Iso tactics as town tend to be "questions, questions everywhere, then see who has scummy answers", and I can't tell which thing he's doing this game. Does anyone else, maybe someone with more recent experience with him, have an opinion on this?
So...because I'm asking questions, seeing what answers do and don't make sense, and pursuing my leads, I'm an Arsonist? The same could be said of anyone who's scumhunting. How do you intend to prove my intent, especially given my inclination to shift towards Hunger over ER or perhaps even Rodemy at this juncture?
Quote from Ged »
Oh, and Iso, I do feel like (assuming you're town) you've done that thing where you ask a lot of questions to see what sticks, but what has stuck is something on someone who is merely very excitable and not scummy.
So you're discounting my 6 years of knowledge of Rodemy as a person outside of Mafia as "Iso is just throwing **** and seeing where it sticks"? Sure, if I'm wrong, then obviously I'm misreading him. But you can't tell me this doesn't reek of his early "I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WHY AM I BEING LYNCHED" in Apocalypse and his "WELL **** I GUESS MY GAMBIT FAILED GONNA IMPLODE AND SELF-VOTE NOW" in Drury Lane.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, I find it incredibly convenient that your case of me has arisen shortly after I declared an IGMEOY, Ged. I'm gonna go dig up why your post raised red flags to me.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Hunger: I posit that townslips are not valid this game. In such a universe, what do you think of Rodemy? I'd ask about myself as well but you answered that already later in your post.
I don't think townslips have anything to do with Rod. I think his push on Kaze for claiming Iso was a play to get others to jump on Kaze and he didn't believe it himself. I think his overreaction and general play have felt town to me. As far as I can tell, everything against him is meta and has nothing to do with townslips.
In fact, a lot of what is going on in this game right now seems to be meta. I'm not comfortable with Void posting once and everyone creaming their pants for town-Void. He brought up some good points and asked some questions, but I didn't think it was THAT great of a post to warrant everyone losing it.
Not knowing the meta, none of the meta cases like this is classic scum Rod, Iso always leads to scum, this looks like scumKarn, etc. hold no water for me. I won't vote anyone because of "it's his meta, trust me" reasons. I want to see more cases on how people are actually posting and not just what they usually do. Not sure if you all are aware, but some people tend to play different game to game in different roles and setups.
Anyway, if we're not lynching Rodemy, I have nagging Hunger feelings (maybe I should go eat! :rimshot:), so I would much rather lynch him than ER. I'll chalk that one up to Paradigm Shift.
This is at least the 2nd or 3rd time you say you could see me being an Arsonist. You have yet to give any reasons why. It certainly isn't a meta case so let's hear why. Quit pussyfooting around it and waiting to see if someone agrees with you and make a case already.
___________________________________________
RE:ER (Palindrome!)The case on him that I am seeing is pretty much:
- He votes Ged because Ged's town claim felt forced and he put an RVS wagon to L-1.
Coincidentally it's on Kaze, but what ER said has nothing to do with it being Kaze. I don't really see this as supporting Kaze but more of a policy thing.
- He then says a lot of people don't fully read OP's and so Karn's case against Kaze for voting someone with a townslip isn't entirely dismissable.
Not really attacking Kaze, but pointing out a slip case maybe shouldn't be easily dismissed. This is basically the main point in Void's case because he was attacking Kaze after supporting him earlier. I don't think he was really supporting Kaze and I don't think this is really much of an attack either.
- Says Rodemy's case of Kaze claiming Iso is dumb because Iso = Arsonist is in the OP.
This is certainly kind of weird that he didn't want to dismiss slips earlier and now says this case is dumb because it would be a slip case.
- Says he is waffling on his Kaze read.
Given this I presume the previous point was isolated to Rod pushing the Iso claim slip, but is willing to consider other slips. Or maybe there is something else he doesn't like about Kaze. Either way, it's consistent with his seeing some merit in the Karn case.
I guess I'm not buying an ER lynch based on this.
___________________________________________
So here is my take on Kaze:
- Claims Iso.
- Says lolguys I'm not Iso and says Arch is scummy and votes him for avoiding the obvious RVS wagon.
- Refutes Karn's notion he slipped by saying it says town are themselves in the OP (I take this to mean he actual read the OP and retained some of the info)
- Yet in the same post he says it's in the OP, he makes the mistake of saying there are three scum. (I would think if he read the OP enough to realize players are themselves, he would have noticed it explicitly states there are two Arsonists)
- When Wheat says there might not be townslips due to all the info being the OP, Kaze says Karn's case is dumb because it is based on what Wheat said being true. When question about not believing in townslips, Kaze says he never said that and he only meant to agree with all the info in the OP part. (I don't see how you can say you agree that all the info is in the OP so the case on him, which is based on slips, is dumb, but also be saying you never said there are no slips.)
- Says he claimed specifically to skip RVS and thinks those votes were serious. Later says he meant not actual RVS, but just the first wagon of the day.
- Again says, I would hope everyone read the OP, implying he did in fact read it.
- Shows he knows what's in the OP stating Arsonists are Self, and calls Rod out for being disingenuous with slips. (Hypocritical? I mean who is the one that used the OP to his advantage and failed to know the basic premise of the game in the same post?)
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
And Rodemy gives a reason for why he's been touchy for no clear reason around this time of year, meaning all "Rodemy is acting weird and thus arsonist" arguments are officially dead.
Can we commence with lynching ER now? Or at least get a little closer to that final glorious goal?
Then go back to voting ER? I have a strong townread on the Rodemy slot, others (maybe only Delilah, but whatever) feel the same way and thus if you're even on both the better vote is still probably ER.
Remember that a scum lynch D1 would be ****ing huge, so it's extremely important we get the right one today. Be picky with your lynches.
Why do you have a strong townread on Rodemy? Moreover, why do you consider that reason enough for the whole wagon to shift elsewhere?
Honestly, I just reskimmed the whole thread to try and find the case so I could remember it and then explain why I remembered not liking it, and I couldn't find any case at all. I remember there being one, but if it's small enough that I couldn't find it and it's unmemorable enough that I don't remember it after doing this same thing yesterday, I'm sufficiently unimpressed by it.
...Did you try to actually read Rodemy yourself?
If he's lynched and shows up Arsonist, I'd believe this. But right now I don't particularly care about old data.
...But at that point it's useless, why would you even make this statement.
I have this case on Iso I'm building, but I can't tell whether it's him being scummy or just him being the way he is. The argument is that
1. Arsonists are just trying to lynch anyone they can.
2. Iso has been spreading around a lot of suspicion and following up wherever it sticks.
3. Therefore Iso is acting like an arsonist.
The problem is that Iso tactics as town tend to be "questions, questions everywhere, then see who has scummy answers", and I can't tell which thing he's doing this game. Does anyone else, maybe someone with more recent experience with him, have an opinion on this?
I feel as though your first point is flawed. Arsonists do care to an extent who's lynched; they want to lynch the other arsonist, for one, and at the same time they want to avoid anyone who is dowsed (which is no one yet, but something to keep in mind).
I have a request, Ged, please describe how scumhunting works.
Now, regarding Eco/Tan -- the question that I feel we should be asking is "who benefits?"
There are only a few possibilities:
Eco is lying, and there never was a mysterious ticking object (MTO).
Tan is lying, and there was a MTO with unknown purpose.
Neither is lying, and the MTO was planting by someone who was -not- Tan, with the intent of implicating Tan in mind.
Obviously Door #3 is a scum option, and while it doesn't "clear" Tan per se, if true, I would say that it makes Tan more likely town, at least.
So, who benefits in Doors #1 and #2?
If Eco is lying, then he's trying to implicate Tan. As previously pointed out, trading 1-for-1 scum for town at this point doesn't make sense.
If Tan is lying, then he planted the MTO -- which did nothing. No abilities failed last night, courtesy of Arnnaria, which means Eco wasn't doc protected or anything. So, whatever the MTO did, it wasn't a bomb that was meant to kill. In this case, the MTO performed an unknown duty -- maybe some kind of scouting device to determine color locks, or who knows. Given that the MTO didn't kill Eco, and given that no abilities failed, I'm inclined to give Tan the benefit of the doubt here.
So, in a Door #2 situation, I think we ignore the MTO and move on -- although maybe gauging reactions from people involved wouldn't be a bad thing.
In Door #1, we have to figure out why Eco would be lying. Does he have some kind of resurrectionist ability, where he could be granted a second chance after one death? I guess that could be a dangerous possibility, since it would allow him to 2-for-1 the town (he'd take out Tan, then go down and come back up, then while the town re-lynches him, scum would get a free NK).
At this point, however, I feel that it is more likely that we follow the Door #3 -- neither of them seem to be lying. Both read as legit confused to me, and I suspect that the MTO was planted by a third party. I suppose that said third party doesn't necessarily HAVE to be scum, but I don't know why a townie would do such a thing. If the neutral wasn't already dead, I would have said that the neutral did it to distract attention from himself....but that's ruled out as a possibility now.
So.....unless someone has some way of providing proof towards one of these scenarios that incriminates one side or the other, I would suggest that we keep a close eye on Eco, and get on with the business of finally lynching Asenion.
Vote Asenion.
what
"Blah blah blah, consider the options, Eco & Tan, lying scum???, etc. VOTE ASENION"
Just...what
In Ataghan Mafia, the above happened. Arianrhod (the artist formerly known as SilverSihhe) and I were both scum, and Arian went into this huge exposition about the Eco/Tan dichotomy (that our team created).
...and then he voted someone else.
Basically, I consider a lot of harglbalarrhgabaggh about something and then coming out of left field with a vote on someone you weren't even talking about is a scum action because it hides that you don't actually have anything to say about the person you're voting and it makes it look like you're providing content and taking a stance on a scummy player.
I've seen this happen elsewhere, too, but I can't remember the game/context.
-
Ged: What do you think of my assessment of your town and scum metas?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyway, if we're not lynching Rodemy, I have nagging Hunger feelings (maybe I should go eat! :rimshot:), so I would much rather lynch him than ER. I'll chalk that one up to Paradigm Shift.
This is at least the 2nd or 3rd time you say you could see me being an Arsonist. You have yet to give any reasons why. It certainly isn't a meta case so let's hear why. Quit pussyfooting around it and waiting to see if someone agrees with you and make a case already.
Why are you so eager to get lynched? You'll have your time in the limelight; be patient.
I could probably make a case on you from this post, alone, actually.
But that's not the point right now - right now, I'm sorting Ged, so you need to sit your ass down and wait your turn. I explained exactly why I have the read on you that I do - Paradigm Shift.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
unvote.
Vote: Hunger
This is scum.
SO DOWN
Unvote, Vote Hunger
-
@AE: No? I'm just trying to figure out if my stance or Wheat's on this is correct, because I want the incorrect one of us to be corrected.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
[So...because I'm asking questions, seeing what answers do and don't make sense, and pursuing my leads, I'm an Arsonist? The same could be said of anyone who's scumhunting. How do you intend to prove my intent, especially given my inclination to shift towards Hunger over ER or perhaps even Rodemy at this juncture?
This is the dilemma I was trying to present. Do you see how it would be easy for exactly that same thing to be very good arsonist play in this game? Ask a million questions, see who answers inconsistently, cause mislynches. In a game where the bad guys have a negligible motivation to look out for anyone but themselves, taking charge of the town would be hugely beneficial, and would be the kind of person incredibly hard to pin for the town.
But yes, I'm aware that those actions could also just be scum-hunting. That's why I was asking for second opinions.
So you're discounting my 6 years of knowledge of Rodemy as a person outside of Mafia as "Iso is just throwing **** and seeing where it sticks"? Sure, if I'm wrong, then obviously I'm misreading him. But you can't tell me this doesn't reek of his early "I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WHY AM I BEING LYNCHED" in Apocalypse and his "WELL **** I GUESS MY GAMBIT FAILED GONNA IMPLODE AND SELF-VOTE NOW" in Drury Lane.
Yes, I am discounting your knowledge of Rodemy IRL because
1. I don't see the case without taking into account your knowledge.
2. I trust my judgment more than yours because I'm me.
3. If you were scum, you could use that knowledge of him to get him to implode.
4. I haven't read those other games.
I thought it was a given that I had done so and didn't see anything case-worthy. If it was not a given, then let it be known that I did read him and didn't see anything case-worthy.
1. Arsonists are just trying to lynch anyone they can.
I feel as though your first point is flawed. Arsonists do care to an extent who's lynched; they want to lynch the other arsonist, for one, and at the same time they want to avoid anyone who is dowsed (which is no one yet, but something to keep in mind).
I disagree. Arsonists would like to see the other arsonist live long enough to light up before dying, and so if anything would like to not lynch the other arsonist too early. But given that they don't know who that person is, I'd expect them to be interested in basically any lynch that wasn't their own. 10/11 odds you don't hit the other guy is pretty good.
Good reminder about the not wanting to lynch doused people. Not relevant yet, but very correct.
I have a request, Ged, please describe how scumhunting works.
Historically for me it's been "sit back, watch people make cases, see which cases hold water and which seem forced, vote people and see what happens."
That's not the answer you're looking for, though. I think good scumhunting is taking an action, trying to put yourself in the place of the person who took that action, and asking yourself why they did what they did.
Of course, your real question is: "what is it that Ged sees in Iso's play that's different from scumhunting?" And I don't have a great answer. But I also think that that's the problem I was trying to present: in this game, good arsonist play and good scumhunting can be very similar. We need to be wary.
Now, regarding Eco/Tan -- the question that I feel we should be asking is "who benefits?"
There are only a few possibilities:
Eco is lying, and there never was a mysterious ticking object (MTO).
Tan is lying, and there was a MTO with unknown purpose.
Neither is lying, and the MTO was planting by someone who was -not- Tan, with the intent of implicating Tan in mind.
Obviously Door #3 is a scum option, and while it doesn't "clear" Tan per se, if true, I would say that it makes Tan more likely town, at least.
So, who benefits in Doors #1 and #2?
If Eco is lying, then he's trying to implicate Tan. As previously pointed out, trading 1-for-1 scum for town at this point doesn't make sense.
If Tan is lying, then he planted the MTO -- which did nothing. No abilities failed last night, courtesy of Arnnaria, which means Eco wasn't doc protected or anything. So, whatever the MTO did, it wasn't a bomb that was meant to kill. In this case, the MTO performed an unknown duty -- maybe some kind of scouting device to determine color locks, or who knows. Given that the MTO didn't kill Eco, and given that no abilities failed, I'm inclined to give Tan the benefit of the doubt here.
So, in a Door #2 situation, I think we ignore the MTO and move on -- although maybe gauging reactions from people involved wouldn't be a bad thing.
In Door #1, we have to figure out why Eco would be lying. Does he have some kind of resurrectionist ability, where he could be granted a second chance after one death? I guess that could be a dangerous possibility, since it would allow him to 2-for-1 the town (he'd take out Tan, then go down and come back up, then while the town re-lynches him, scum would get a free NK).
At this point, however, I feel that it is more likely that we follow the Door #3 -- neither of them seem to be lying. Both read as legit confused to me, and I suspect that the MTO was planted by a third party. I suppose that said third party doesn't necessarily HAVE to be scum, but I don't know why a townie would do such a thing. If the neutral wasn't already dead, I would have said that the neutral did it to distract attention from himself....but that's ruled out as a possibility now.
So.....unless someone has some way of providing proof towards one of these scenarios that incriminates one side or the other, I would suggest that we keep a close eye on Eco, and get on with the business of finally lynching Asenion.
Vote Asenion.
what
"Blah blah blah, consider the options, Eco & Tan, lying scum???, etc. VOTE ASENION"
Just...what
In Ataghan Mafia, the above happened. Arianrhod (the artist formerly known as SilverSihhe) and I were both scum, and Arian went into this huge exposition about the Eco/Tan dichotomy (that our team created).
...and then he voted someone else.
Basically, I consider a lot of harglbalarrhgabaggh about something and then coming out of left field with a vote on someone you weren't even talking about is a scum action because it hides that you don't actually have anything to say about the person you're voting and it makes it look like you're providing content and taking a stance on a scummy player.
I've seen this happen elsewhere, too, but I can't remember the game/context.
You are referencing my post 189, in which I was confused by Rodemy's actions and voted ER. Except it differs from the scenario you quoted in that there was no "one of Rodemy / Iso is scum" dichotomy. It's possible to imagine any combination of alignments there, though I think town-Rodemy scum-Iso and town-Rodemy town-Iso are by far the most likely.
My vote on ER does appear to come out of nowhere now that I look back at it, but it was something I'd been thinking about since Void's big post.
Ged: What do you think of my assessment of your town and scum metas?
I cannot remember what you stated they were, and I'm running out of time to make this post before I have to get back to holiday things. You can either restate them for me or I'll find them later and get back to you.
ENDING STATEMENTS:
1. During the reread I did for this post, I learned that I <3 Sir Karn.
2. I know this is going to look like I'm flip-flopping because I am, but I'm a big believer in putting out my thought process, so whatever. My reread of Iso made me more comfortable with his play. Specifically, he's thrown around less suspicion than I remember. I still maintain that his actions would be really good arsonist play and consistent with that win condition, and so I will keep tabs, but I'm less immediately concerned than I was before I wrote this.
I have a request, Ged, please describe how scumhunting works.
Historically for me it's been "sit back, watch people make cases, see which cases hold water and which seem forced, vote people and see what happens."
That's not the answer you're looking for, though. I think good scumhunting is taking an action, trying to put yourself in the place of the person who took that action, and asking yourself why they did what they did.
Of course, your real question is: "what is it that Ged sees in Iso's play that's different from scumhunting?" And I don't have a great answer. But I also think that that's the problem I was trying to present: in this game, good arsonist play and good scumhunting can be very similar. We need to be wary.
I believe the depth of this explanation does not fit at all with Iso's characterization of your scum play leading you to play dumb.
I don't think you're right about Iso, at least not for that reason, but I don't think you're an arsonist anymore either.
(And the reason I think you aren't on the right track with Iso is because he tends to question everyone to figure out who gives scummy answers. I think you believe that to be casting suspicion, when I believe Iso is doing it to scumhunt.)
But the one thing that doesn't satisfy me is that you're trying to cast suspicion on Iso for scumhunting, by your last sentence. While I can see where you're coming from, I can't help but feel that sentence can be used to discredit absolutely anything used against anybody.
[So...because I'm asking questions, seeing what answers do and don't make sense, and pursuing my leads, I'm an Arsonist? The same could be said of anyone who's scumhunting. How do you intend to prove my intent, especially given my inclination to shift towards Hunger over ER or perhaps even Rodemy at this juncture?
This is the dilemma I was trying to present. Do you see how it would be easy for exactly that same thing to be very good arsonist play in this game? Ask a million questions, see who answers inconsistently, cause mislynches. In a game where the bad guys have a negligible motivation to look out for anyone but themselves, taking charge of the town would be hugely beneficial, and would be the kind of person incredibly hard to pin for the town.
But yes, I'm aware that those actions could also just be scum-hunting. That's why I was asking for second opinions.
Then I guess that raises the question: Do you think I'm a good player, Ged?
Quote from Ged »
I haven't read those other games.
When you get a moment, do me a favor, and read the cited portions of those games.
Quote from Ged »
Of course, your real question is: "what is it that Ged sees in Iso's play that's different from scumhunting?" And I don't have a great answer. But I also think that that's the problem I was trying to present: in this game, good arsonist play and good scumhunting can be very similar. We need to be wary.
So your push on me is "Iso seems to be playing well, therefore I am paranoid of him"?
I get the feeling I'll be a victim of Cyanosis, wherein if I survive past the first match, then I will probably be scrutinized.
Now, regarding Eco/Tan -- the question that I feel we should be asking is "who benefits?"
There are only a few possibilities:
Eco is lying, and there never was a mysterious ticking object (MTO).
Tan is lying, and there was a MTO with unknown purpose.
Neither is lying, and the MTO was planting by someone who was -not- Tan, with the intent of implicating Tan in mind.
Obviously Door #3 is a scum option, and while it doesn't "clear" Tan per se, if true, I would say that it makes Tan more likely town, at least.
So, who benefits in Doors #1 and #2?
If Eco is lying, then he's trying to implicate Tan. As previously pointed out, trading 1-for-1 scum for town at this point doesn't make sense.
If Tan is lying, then he planted the MTO -- which did nothing. No abilities failed last night, courtesy of Arnnaria, which means Eco wasn't doc protected or anything. So, whatever the MTO did, it wasn't a bomb that was meant to kill. In this case, the MTO performed an unknown duty -- maybe some kind of scouting device to determine color locks, or who knows. Given that the MTO didn't kill Eco, and given that no abilities failed, I'm inclined to give Tan the benefit of the doubt here.
So, in a Door #2 situation, I think we ignore the MTO and move on -- although maybe gauging reactions from people involved wouldn't be a bad thing.
In Door #1, we have to figure out why Eco would be lying. Does he have some kind of resurrectionist ability, where he could be granted a second chance after one death? I guess that could be a dangerous possibility, since it would allow him to 2-for-1 the town (he'd take out Tan, then go down and come back up, then while the town re-lynches him, scum would get a free NK).
At this point, however, I feel that it is more likely that we follow the Door #3 -- neither of them seem to be lying. Both read as legit confused to me, and I suspect that the MTO was planted by a third party. I suppose that said third party doesn't necessarily HAVE to be scum, but I don't know why a townie would do such a thing. If the neutral wasn't already dead, I would have said that the neutral did it to distract attention from himself....but that's ruled out as a possibility now.
So.....unless someone has some way of providing proof towards one of these scenarios that incriminates one side or the other, I would suggest that we keep a close eye on Eco, and get on with the business of finally lynching Asenion.
Vote Asenion.
what
"Blah blah blah, consider the options, Eco & Tan, lying scum???, etc. VOTE ASENION"
Just...what
In Ataghan Mafia, the above happened. Arianrhod (the artist formerly known as SilverSihhe) and I were both scum, and Arian went into this huge exposition about the Eco/Tan dichotomy (that our team created).
...and then he voted someone else.
Basically, I consider a lot of harglbalarrhgabaggh about something and then coming out of left field with a vote on someone you weren't even talking about is a scum action because it hides that you don't actually have anything to say about the person you're voting and it makes it look like you're providing content and taking a stance on a scummy player.
I've seen this happen elsewhere, too, but I can't remember the game/context.
You are referencing my post 189, in which I was confused by Rodemy's actions and voted ER. Except it differs from the scenario you quoted in that there was no "one of Rodemy / Iso is scum" dichotomy. It's possible to imagine any combination of alignments there, though I think town-Rodemy scum-Iso and town-Rodemy town-Iso are by far the most likely.
My vote on ER does appear to come out of nowhere now that I look back at it, but it was something I'd been thinking about since Void's big post.
Okay, that's fair, RE: Void's post - however, the dichotomy issue was irrelevant to the point. What's relevant is saying a lot about something and then throwing out a left-field vote.
Ged: What do you think of my assessment of your town and scum metas?
I cannot remember what you stated they were, and I'm running out of time to make this post before I have to get back to holiday things. You can either restate them for me or I'll find them later and get back to you.
You'll probably find them around the area where I mentioned which parts of Rodemy's scum games I find his play here to be similar to. I'll wait.
Quote from Ged »
My reread of Iso made me more comfortable with his play. Specifically, he's thrown around less suspicion than I remember. I still maintain that his actions would be really good arsonist play and consistent with that win condition, and so I will keep tabs, but I'm less immediately concerned than I was before I wrote this.
Have you noticed anybody else playing similarly to myself in this game, so far?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
- Claims Iso.
- Says lolguys I'm not Iso and says Arch is scummy and votes him for avoiding the obvious RVS wagon.
- Refutes Karn's notion he slipped by saying it says town are themselves in the OP (I take this to mean he actual read the OP and retained some of the info)
- Yet in the same post he says it's in the OP, he makes the mistake of saying there are three scum. (I would think if he read the OP enough to realize players are themselves, he would have noticed it explicitly states there are two Arsonists)
- When Wheat says there might not be townslips due to all the info being the OP, Kaze says Karn's case is dumb because it is based on what Wheat said being true. When question about not believing in townslips, Kaze says he never said that and he only meant to agree with all the info in the OP part. (I don't see how you can say you agree that all the info is in the OP so the case on him, which is based on slips, is dumb, but also be saying you never said there are no slips.)
- Says he claimed specifically to skip RVS and thinks those votes were serious. Later says he meant not actual RVS, but just the first wagon of the day.
- Again says, I would hope everyone read the OP, implying he did in fact read it.
- Shows he knows what's in the OP stating Arsonists are Self, and calls Rod out for being disingenuous with slips. (Hypocritical? I mean who is the one that used the OP to his advantage and failed to know the basic premise of the game in the same post?)
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
This sounds like a fantastic case for Stupid!Kaze, Forgetful!Kaze, and probably readingcomprehensionfail!Kaze, but even you're stating here that you have no idea where I'd be going with this if I were scum. So, stop being bad.
Not sure if this is scum, though. What's up with the flashwagon, guys?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Wheat: Please walk me through why you believe Sir Karn's thought process regarding Hunger's post is correct.
Hunger is saying that Kaze is mostly townie, but votes Kaze anyway. There are two possible reasons I can see behind it:
1. He wants to have his vote on somebody, even if they aren't scum. I understand the sort of reasoning that leads to this as town (pressure voting), but not to the extent of voting someone you consider generally townie. And especially not when that player has already shown their response to pressure.
2. He's trying to deflect the incoming pressure from you. This would make sense, as his case is weak by his own admission, implying that it was all he could come up with. Town aren't concerned by that pressure, but scum are.
Karn was the one who brought that part of the post to my attention (I skim large posts) and then voted Hunger for it. I agree that Hunger is scum as a result of that post, therefore Karn is right on the money.
But the one thing that doesn't satisfy me is that you're trying to cast suspicion on Iso for scumhunting, by your last sentence. While I can see where you're coming from, I can't help but feel that sentence can be used to discredit absolutely anything used against anybody.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I'm uncomfortable with it. But I also think it's true. There's always going to be a tonal difference between the two, and I think most arsonists won't play the way I've been describing. I guess I just don't want anyone to fall into a rut of blindly trusting anyone else.
Then again, this is mafia. I probably shouldn't be worried about that.
Okay, that's fair, RE: Void's post - however, the dichotomy issue was irrelevant to the point. What's relevant is saying a lot about something and then throwing out a left-field vote.
This is fair. I'll say again that ER had already been on my mind, and I thought my posts had reflected that more than they did. The only hint of this appears to be my post 130.
Ged - Ged's scumgame involves being really self-conscious and pretending to be dumb. Neither of those elements are present in his play, and combined with the fact that he's clearly just having fun here (despite saying he received a disappointing role PM), he's town.
I think of my scumgame as more "lurk until there's a convenient wagon, then hop on" vs my traditional town game of "lurk until there's a wagon I agree with, then hop on". While the self-conscious thing isn't something intentional, I wouldn't be shocked if you were right about it. Pretending to be dumb also isn't something I do intentionally, but it wouldn't surprise me to see.
Karn was the one who brought that part of the post to my attention (I skim large posts) and then voted Hunger for it. I agree that Hunger is scum as a result of that post, therefore Karn is right on the money.
So, my statement to Hunger of "I could probably case you on this post alone" didn't pique your curiosity?
So your push on me is "Iso seems to be playing well, therefore I am paranoid of him"?
I get the feeling I'll be a victim of Cyanosis, wherein if I survive past the first match, then I will probably be scrutinized.
I mean... take it as a compliment?
Yeah I guess. I would just hate to see the endgame come down to myself and two other players and have me be the endgame mislynch simply because "Iso is still alive", y'know?
Quote from Ged »
Also, I'll reiterate that at this time I no longer wish to push the issue further, though I expect it will still be a bit before the issue dies down.
Okay, that's fair, RE: Void's post - however, the dichotomy issue was irrelevant to the point. What's relevant is saying a lot about something and then throwing out a left-field vote.
This is fair. I'll say again that ER had already been on my mind, and I thought my posts had reflected that more than they did. The only hint of this appears to be my post 130.
Ah, I thought that might've been what that was about. Sure.
Ged - Ged's scumgame involves being really self-conscious and pretending to be dumb. Neither of those elements are present in his play, and combined with the fact that he's clearly just having fun here (despite saying he received a disappointing role PM), he's town.
I think of my scumgame as more "lurk until there's a convenient wagon, then hop on" vs my traditional town game of "lurk until there's a wagon I agree with, then hop on". While the self-conscious thing isn't something intentional, I wouldn't be shocked if you were right about it. Pretending to be dumb also isn't something I do intentionally, but it wouldn't surprise me to see.
There's a pretty clear difference between Redux 2 and Cyberpunk, IMO.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, I've been thinking about this setup, and I like that most of the conversations have felt like town talking to town. I feel more at ease without the imminent threat of 1/4 of the playerbase plotting my death (1/6 now!) and without the potential of getting killed off early. It's like Vanilla Mafia 2 without the stupid!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Karn was the one who brought that part of the post to my attention (I skim large posts) and then voted Hunger for it. I agree that Hunger is scum as a result of that post, therefore Karn is right on the money.
So, my statement to Hunger of "I could probably case you on this post alone" didn't pique your curiosity?
I don't remember it. Looking back, I find your post:
This is at least the 2nd or 3rd time you say you could see me being an Arsonist. You have yet to give any reasons why. It certainly isn't a meta case so let's hear why. Quit pussyfooting around it and waiting to see if someone agrees with you and make a case already.
Why are you so eager to get lynched? You'll have your time in the limelight; be patient.
I could probably make a case on you from this post, alone, actually.
But that's not the point right now - right now, I'm sorting Ged, so you need to sit your ass down and wait your turn. I explained exactly why I have the read on you that I do - Paradigm Shift.
I'm not sure if I saw the second bit, though I know I remember reading the third. But even if I did, I know I didn't do more than look at the quote you had since I was focused on Ged, and there's nothing there which shouts to me that Hunger is scum.
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
unvote.
Vote: Hunger
This is scum.
Which quotes a part of Hunger's post which clearly shows scum mindset.
Have you noticed anybody else playing similarly to myself in this game, so far?
Not to the same extent.
But...yes, to some extent? Who, if so?
I'm trying to decide how much to pick at this… and I guess I'll just go whole hog.
I've seen a couple posts out of Kaze and Wheat that do the same thing you've been doing - throwing questions to a bunch of different people and seeing what comes back. Maybe others, too, but none immediately spring to mind. The difference is that nearly all your posts that are more than a single line long are of this kind, whereas for everyone else they're just a handful.
When it comes down to it, that's my point through this whole conversation. You make lots of posts asking questions of lots of different people. The reactions you get from this kind of post can be great, and to the best of my knowledge you do this a lot regardless of alignment. Your tactic is that you want to give scum opportunities to show themselves by having bad / revealing answers, right?
But in a game where 100% of scum don't care who gets lynched besides themselves, it'd be easy to make the same play as scum but with the goal of waiting for someone to say something you can twist. And the fact that those two things look really similar is scary.
So my answer to your question is that I haven't seen anyone else doing it on the same scale, and since for this hypothetical arsonist strategy to be effective they'd have to be doing it a lot more, they didn't worry me the same way you did.
-
In other news, lawl Hunger.
@Iso: you've mentioned Hunger off and on for a while now. Can you tell us what you were seeing in him before this most recent transgression?
Unvote; Vote: Archmage for masterfully avoiding the RVS wagon.
I'm not Iso, by the way.
And the debacle around that time. But he has had some townish posts since then...
What if Hunger just really has no idea what he's doing and Kaze is the other Arsonist as originally predicted - 'other' of course referring to Wheat as the first.
@Iso: you've mentioned Hunger off and on for a while now. Can you tell us what you were seeing in him before this most recent transgression?
That's...exactly the problem, actually. I should be able to convey what I think of someone's posts, right? But with Hunger, up until the last one, I found his posts ":eyebrow:"-worthy but couldn't expound on it better than that and just moved on. I'm sure that was in part due to skimming it in my read, but I shouldn't have had to skim it. It was a series of posts that said a bunch of nothing. There was absolutely nothing compelling about his posts but he's received far too little scrutiny for it until now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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I look forward to wrecking the arsonists together when you're back in full force.
I thought you were one of the chosen ones currently voting ER.
Remember that a scum lynch D1 would be ****ing huge, so it's extremely important we get the right one today. Be picky with your lynches.
wait
my vote's not on Rodemy
I HAD A REASON FOR THAT
i just can't remember right now
I'm going to trust pastKaze and stick with it.
2, 3? Why?
Dredge up some posts for comparison to show me what you mean.
How so?
Garbage. I'm attacking who I think is scum; whether they're a weak player or not has nothing to do with it, particularly considering I've showed I'm not adverse to going after the big fish when I'm scum, either.
This is the kind of post that scum make. IGMEOY now, Ged.
Rodemy and I have discussed his meta IRL extensively.
Rodemy also doesn't know how to handle pressure. Go see where he got lynched in Drury Lane Mafia.
Well I know I said it so read my damn posts. (I also said that it might have been 2 posts before that one. :teach:)
Once you get back, if you're not an Arsonist, level with me. Address my concerns about your play and work with me through this if you're town and you actually want to win this game.
I'm not willing to discount that possibility. It sounds a lot like something he did in Apoc.
Yeah, AE should post more.
Delilah has a scum read on Rodemy.
That's not why I think he's an Arsonist. I think he's an Arsonist because he's acting like he does when he's scum.
-
Anyway, if we're not lynching Rodemy, I have nagging Hunger feelings (maybe I should go eat! :rimshot:), so I would much rather lynch him than ER. I'll chalk that one up to Paradigm Shift.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Honestly, I just reskimmed the whole thread to try and find the case so I could remember it and then explain why I remembered not liking it, and I couldn't find any case at all. I remember there being one, but if it's small enough that I couldn't find it and it's unmemorable enough that I don't remember it after doing this same thing yesterday, I'm sufficiently unimpressed by it.
If he's lynched and shows up Arsonist, I'd believe this. But right now I don't particularly care about old data.
Still comfortable with a vote on ER for now, still for the inconsistency pointed out by Void.
I have this case on Iso I'm building, but I can't tell whether it's him being scummy or just him being the way he is. The argument is that
1. Arsonists are just trying to lynch anyone they can.
2. Iso has been spreading around a lot of suspicion and following up wherever it sticks.
3. Therefore Iso is acting like an arsonist.
The problem is that Iso tactics as town tend to be "questions, questions everywhere, then see who has scummy answers", and I can't tell which thing he's doing this game. Does anyone else, maybe someone with more recent experience with him, have an opinion on this?
Oh, and Iso, I do feel like (assuming you're town) you've done that thing where you ask a lot of questions to see what sticks, but what has stuck is something on someone who is merely very excitable and not scummy.
So...because I'm asking questions, seeing what answers do and don't make sense, and pursuing my leads, I'm an Arsonist? The same could be said of anyone who's scumhunting. How do you intend to prove my intent, especially given my inclination to shift towards Hunger over ER or perhaps even Rodemy at this juncture?
So you're discounting my 6 years of knowledge of Rodemy as a person outside of Mafia as "Iso is just throwing **** and seeing where it sticks"? Sure, if I'm wrong, then obviously I'm misreading him. But you can't tell me this doesn't reek of his early "I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WHY AM I BEING LYNCHED" in Apocalypse and his "WELL **** I GUESS MY GAMBIT FAILED GONNA IMPLODE AND SELF-VOTE NOW" in Drury Lane.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In fact, a lot of what is going on in this game right now seems to be meta. I'm not comfortable with Void posting once and everyone creaming their pants for town-Void. He brought up some good points and asked some questions, but I didn't think it was THAT great of a post to warrant everyone losing it.
Not knowing the meta, none of the meta cases like this is classic scum Rod, Iso always leads to scum, this looks like scumKarn, etc. hold no water for me. I won't vote anyone because of "it's his meta, trust me" reasons. I want to see more cases on how people are actually posting and not just what they usually do. Not sure if you all are aware, but some people tend to play different game to game in different roles and setups.
Which brings me to this:
This is at least the 2nd or 3rd time you say you could see me being an Arsonist. You have yet to give any reasons why. It certainly isn't a meta case so let's hear why. Quit pussyfooting around it and waiting to see if someone agrees with you and make a case already.
___________________________________________
RE:ER (Palindrome!)The case on him that I am seeing is pretty much:
- He votes Ged because Ged's town claim felt forced and he put an RVS wagon to L-1.
Coincidentally it's on Kaze, but what ER said has nothing to do with it being Kaze. I don't really see this as supporting Kaze but more of a policy thing.
- He then says a lot of people don't fully read OP's and so Karn's case against Kaze for voting someone with a townslip isn't entirely dismissable.
Not really attacking Kaze, but pointing out a slip case maybe shouldn't be easily dismissed. This is basically the main point in Void's case because he was attacking Kaze after supporting him earlier. I don't think he was really supporting Kaze and I don't think this is really much of an attack either.
- Says Rodemy's case of Kaze claiming Iso is dumb because Iso = Arsonist is in the OP.
This is certainly kind of weird that he didn't want to dismiss slips earlier and now says this case is dumb because it would be a slip case.
- Says he is waffling on his Kaze read.
Given this I presume the previous point was isolated to Rod pushing the Iso claim slip, but is willing to consider other slips. Or maybe there is something else he doesn't like about Kaze. Either way, it's consistent with his seeing some merit in the Karn case.
I guess I'm not buying an ER lynch based on this.
___________________________________________
So here is my take on Kaze:
- Claims Iso.
- Says lolguys I'm not Iso and says Arch is scummy and votes him for avoiding the obvious RVS wagon.
- Refutes Karn's notion he slipped by saying it says town are themselves in the OP (I take this to mean he actual read the OP and retained some of the info)
- Yet in the same post he says it's in the OP, he makes the mistake of saying there are three scum. (I would think if he read the OP enough to realize players are themselves, he would have noticed it explicitly states there are two Arsonists)
- When Wheat says there might not be townslips due to all the info being the OP, Kaze says Karn's case is dumb because it is based on what Wheat said being true. When question about not believing in townslips, Kaze says he never said that and he only meant to agree with all the info in the OP part. (I don't see how you can say you agree that all the info is in the OP so the case on him, which is based on slips, is dumb, but also be saying you never said there are no slips.)
- Says he claimed specifically to skip RVS and thinks those votes were serious. Later says he meant not actual RVS, but just the first wagon of the day.
- Again says, I would hope everyone read the OP, implying he did in fact read it.
- Shows he knows what's in the OP stating Arsonists are Self, and calls Rod out for being disingenuous with slips. (Hypocritical? I mean who is the one that used the OP to his advantage and failed to know the basic premise of the game in the same post?)
Other than his back and forth on using OP in his defense, then slipping, then referring to the OP, etc. I find most of his other posts to be fairly townish. If it was a play I'm not sure what the end goal would be here, but I don't like anything that seems forced.
I'm not awesome at D1 cases, but this is the best I have for now, so: Vote: Kaze
The weirdness extends past touchiness.
Why do you have a strong townread on Rodemy? Moreover, why do you consider that reason enough for the whole wagon to shift elsewhere?
...Did you try to actually read Rodemy yourself?
...But at that point it's useless, why would you even make this statement.
I feel as though your first point is flawed. Arsonists do care to an extent who's lynched; they want to lynch the other arsonist, for one, and at the same time they want to avoid anyone who is dowsed (which is no one yet, but something to keep in mind).
I have a request, Ged, please describe how scumhunting works.
In Ataghan Mafia, the above happened. Arianrhod (the artist formerly known as SilverSihhe) and I were both scum, and Arian went into this huge exposition about the Eco/Tan dichotomy (that our team created).
...and then he voted someone else.
Basically, I consider a lot of harglbalarrhgabaggh about something and then coming out of left field with a vote on someone you weren't even talking about is a scum action because it hides that you don't actually have anything to say about the person you're voting and it makes it look like you're providing content and taking a stance on a scummy player.
I've seen this happen elsewhere, too, but I can't remember the game/context.
-
Ged: What do you think of my assessment of your town and scum metas?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why are you so eager to get lynched? You'll have your time in the limelight; be patient.
I could probably make a case on you from this post, alone, actually.
But that's not the point right now - right now, I'm sorting Ged, so you need to sit your ass down and wait your turn. I explained exactly why I have the read on you that I do - Paradigm Shift.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
They hate us cause they ain't us.
One cannot win while the other survives.
Meaning they both win.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
We could clarify with Xyre.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
unvote.
Vote: Hunger
This is scum.
Why? You trying to coordinate? Have I missed something?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
SO DOWN
Unvote, Vote Hunger
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@AE: No? I'm just trying to figure out if my stance or Wheat's on this is correct, because I want the incorrect one of us to be corrected.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is the dilemma I was trying to present. Do you see how it would be easy for exactly that same thing to be very good arsonist play in this game? Ask a million questions, see who answers inconsistently, cause mislynches. In a game where the bad guys have a negligible motivation to look out for anyone but themselves, taking charge of the town would be hugely beneficial, and would be the kind of person incredibly hard to pin for the town.
But yes, I'm aware that those actions could also just be scum-hunting. That's why I was asking for second opinions.
Yes, I am discounting your knowledge of Rodemy IRL because
1. I don't see the case without taking into account your knowledge.
2. I trust my judgment more than yours because I'm me.
3. If you were scum, you could use that knowledge of him to get him to implode.
4. I haven't read those other games.
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I thought it was a given that I had done so and didn't see anything case-worthy. If it was not a given, then let it be known that I did read him and didn't see anything case-worthy.
I don't know, because it was what I was thinking.
I disagree. Arsonists would like to see the other arsonist live long enough to light up before dying, and so if anything would like to not lynch the other arsonist too early. But given that they don't know who that person is, I'd expect them to be interested in basically any lynch that wasn't their own. 10/11 odds you don't hit the other guy is pretty good.
Good reminder about the not wanting to lynch doused people. Not relevant yet, but very correct.
Historically for me it's been "sit back, watch people make cases, see which cases hold water and which seem forced, vote people and see what happens."
That's not the answer you're looking for, though. I think good scumhunting is taking an action, trying to put yourself in the place of the person who took that action, and asking yourself why they did what they did.
Of course, your real question is: "what is it that Ged sees in Iso's play that's different from scumhunting?" And I don't have a great answer. But I also think that that's the problem I was trying to present: in this game, good arsonist play and good scumhunting can be very similar. We need to be wary.
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You are referencing my post 189, in which I was confused by Rodemy's actions and voted ER. Except it differs from the scenario you quoted in that there was no "one of Rodemy / Iso is scum" dichotomy. It's possible to imagine any combination of alignments there, though I think town-Rodemy scum-Iso and town-Rodemy town-Iso are by far the most likely.
My vote on ER does appear to come out of nowhere now that I look back at it, but it was something I'd been thinking about since Void's big post.
I cannot remember what you stated they were, and I'm running out of time to make this post before I have to get back to holiday things. You can either restate them for me or I'll find them later and get back to you.
ENDING STATEMENTS:
1. During the reread I did for this post, I learned that I <3 Sir Karn.
2. I know this is going to look like I'm flip-flopping because I am, but I'm a big believer in putting out my thought process, so whatever. My reread of Iso made me more comfortable with his play. Specifically, he's thrown around less suspicion than I remember. I still maintain that his actions would be really good arsonist play and consistent with that win condition, and so I will keep tabs, but I'm less immediately concerned than I was before I wrote this.
Later gators.
Sir Karn has it right on the money.
I believe the depth of this explanation does not fit at all with Iso's characterization of your scum play leading you to play dumb.
I don't think you're right about Iso, at least not for that reason, but I don't think you're an arsonist anymore either.
(And the reason I think you aren't on the right track with Iso is because he tends to question everyone to figure out who gives scummy answers. I think you believe that to be casting suspicion, when I believe Iso is doing it to scumhunt.)
But the one thing that doesn't satisfy me is that you're trying to cast suspicion on Iso for scumhunting, by your last sentence. While I can see where you're coming from, I can't help but feel that sentence can be used to discredit absolutely anything used against anybody.
Then I guess that raises the question: Do you think I'm a good player, Ged?
When you get a moment, do me a favor, and read the cited portions of those games.
So your push on me is "Iso seems to be playing well, therefore I am paranoid of him"?
I get the feeling I'll be a victim of Cyanosis, wherein if I survive past the first match, then I will probably be scrutinized.
Okay, that's fair, RE: Void's post - however, the dichotomy issue was irrelevant to the point. What's relevant is saying a lot about something and then throwing out a left-field vote.
You'll probably find them around the area where I mentioned which parts of Rodemy's scum games I find his play here to be similar to. I'll wait.
Have you noticed anybody else playing similarly to myself in this game, so far?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This sounds like a fantastic case for Stupid!Kaze, Forgetful!Kaze, and probably readingcomprehensionfail!Kaze, but even you're stating here that you have no idea where I'd be going with this if I were scum. So, stop being bad.
Not sure if this is scum, though. What's up with the flashwagon, guys?
probscum
that's why
Wheat's vote pinged me but I like his townslip still. Why do you think Wheat is an Arsonist?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll put something actual together when it's not Christmas.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hunger is saying that Kaze is mostly townie, but votes Kaze anyway. There are two possible reasons I can see behind it:
1. He wants to have his vote on somebody, even if they aren't scum. I understand the sort of reasoning that leads to this as town (pressure voting), but not to the extent of voting someone you consider generally townie. And especially not when that player has already shown their response to pressure.
2. He's trying to deflect the incoming pressure from you. This would make sense, as his case is weak by his own admission, implying that it was all he could come up with. Town aren't concerned by that pressure, but scum are.
Karn was the one who brought that part of the post to my attention (I skim large posts) and then voted Hunger for it. I agree that Hunger is scum as a result of that post, therefore Karn is right on the money.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I'm uncomfortable with it. But I also think it's true. There's always going to be a tonal difference between the two, and I think most arsonists won't play the way I've been describing. I guess I just don't want anyone to fall into a rut of blindly trusting anyone else.
Then again, this is mafia. I probably shouldn't be worried about that.
I do, with the caveat that I haven't played mafia in forever, and in particular I haven't played with you in forever.
I mean... take it as a compliment?
Also, I'll reiterate that at this time I no longer wish to push the issue further, though I expect it will still be a bit before the issue dies down.
This is fair. I'll say again that ER had already been on my mind, and I thought my posts had reflected that more than they did. The only hint of this appears to be my post 130.
I think of my scumgame as more "lurk until there's a convenient wagon, then hop on" vs my traditional town game of "lurk until there's a wagon I agree with, then hop on". While the self-conscious thing isn't something intentional, I wouldn't be shocked if you were right about it. Pretending to be dumb also isn't something I do intentionally, but it wouldn't surprise me to see.
Not to the same extent.
So, my statement to Hunger of "I could probably case you on this post alone" didn't pique your curiosity?
Redux 2 was only 6 months ago! But thank you.
Yeah I guess. I would just hate to see the endgame come down to myself and two other players and have me be the endgame mislynch simply because "Iso is still alive", y'know?
Ah, I thought that might've been what that was about. Sure.
There's a pretty clear difference between Redux 2 and Cyberpunk, IMO.
But...yes, to some extent? Who, if so?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't remember it. Looking back, I find your post:
I'm not sure if I saw the second bit, though I know I remember reading the third. But even if I did, I know I didn't do more than look at the quote you had since I was focused on Ged, and there's nothing there which shouts to me that Hunger is scum.
Compare to Karn's post:
Which quotes a part of Hunger's post which clearly shows scum mindset.
I'm trying to decide how much to pick at this… and I guess I'll just go whole hog.
I've seen a couple posts out of Kaze and Wheat that do the same thing you've been doing - throwing questions to a bunch of different people and seeing what comes back. Maybe others, too, but none immediately spring to mind. The difference is that nearly all your posts that are more than a single line long are of this kind, whereas for everyone else they're just a handful.
When it comes down to it, that's my point through this whole conversation. You make lots of posts asking questions of lots of different people. The reactions you get from this kind of post can be great, and to the best of my knowledge you do this a lot regardless of alignment. Your tactic is that you want to give scum opportunities to show themselves by having bad / revealing answers, right?
But in a game where 100% of scum don't care who gets lynched besides themselves, it'd be easy to make the same play as scum but with the goal of waiting for someone to say something you can twist. And the fact that those two things look really similar is scary.
So my answer to your question is that I haven't seen anyone else doing it on the same scale, and since for this hypothetical arsonist strategy to be effective they'd have to be doing it a lot more, they didn't worry me the same way you did.
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In other news, lawl Hunger.
@Iso: you've mentioned Hunger off and on for a while now. Can you tell us what you were seeing in him before this most recent transgression?
But what about Kaze?
Hmmm. You know what. I was just rereading the first page and remembered exactly how awful this was:
And the debacle around that time. But he has had some townish posts since then...
What if Hunger just really has no idea what he's doing and Kaze is the other Arsonist as originally predicted - 'other' of course referring to Wheat as the first.
unvote.
Vote: Wheat
We'll sleep on this then talk about it tomorrow.
That dude's town. My Role PM said so.
That's...exactly the problem, actually. I should be able to convey what I think of someone's posts, right? But with Hunger, up until the last one, I found his posts ":eyebrow:"-worthy but couldn't expound on it better than that and just moved on. I'm sure that was in part due to skimming it in my read, but I shouldn't have had to skim it. It was a series of posts that said a bunch of nothing. There was absolutely nothing compelling about his posts but he's received far too little scrutiny for it until now.
wut
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@Wheat: Are you paranoid of me?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player