However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Ah, but you see, there's a difference between bussing and outting. No, if Rhand and I were legitimately buddies, I would actually have some kind of case against him instead of fumbling around with the case about voting Void for his RVS no lynch.
There is a difference, but given your other play, you'll forgive me if I don't take you at your word here that this isn't something you'd do as scum.
Mister Cythare, you could not have timed your jump on to Mister TK at a worse time. I can not stand it when such things obfuscate my reads.
I was going to make mention that I would much rather pursue iRebel in light of this awful, WIFOM-laden development, yet it seems Mister Void has beaten me to it, so I have no issue distributing further town points to him. Not that I needed any help reading Mister Void to begin with.
I get that the timing looks bad, but it is what it is. I hadn't been able to make too much time for this game until recently due to work commitments (and historically providing content during work), and his recent play reminded me of the quote that TK responded to above, so I reviewed his play this Day. As I noted, his recent posts looked manufactured, and while definitely not explicitly scummy, I also don't think they are as Town as Void is stating they are. They're null, and I noted them because they stood out, but they didn't inform my read - that came from earlier stuff that I should have picked up on earlier if I had been able to invest my time properly in the game from the start.
I'm still open to pursuing iRebel, as he's my other major suspect.
Mister Cythare, why have you seemingly only been invested in this game as of recently? How do you feel about Mister Dog at present?
Ast stated above, historically, most of my Mafia play was done during business hours, but I've been ramping up at my job to take on more projects, so I'm unable to commit that time like I had in the past. Because of that, I need to do a lot of my play from home, where it's harder to get motivated after a long day of work. This is also why I've been limiting myself to 1 active game recently.
Regarding Guardman, I haven't really been paying attention to him. I noted before that I didn't like him proclaiming you Town despite clearly not reading all your content, but he has been flying under the radar of late, which is why I've been focusing more on others.
That said, he hasn't provided anything substantive in almost 6 days aside from defending himself from Idle Muse and Rhand. He wasn't this low on content early on in the last game I was in - where he was Town - but all of my reasons of having him leaning scum are based on my own interpretation of his actions (i.e. outing you, calling you Town based on few posts). In other words, I still have him slightly leaning scum because he hasn't done anything in the past week to change my read on him in either direction.
I'm more concerned about Asenion than Guardman, though. Guardman's content has been sparse, but not nearly as much as Asenion. I would love to see that content that he promised to provide yesterday after work.
Anyway, DCIII, is it bad for there to be doubts on those who didn't have them? Let's say we're at the conclusion of this debate of whether mafia!TK would post something like this. In the mean time, we've now learned a lot about you, Void, Cythare, FIGHTING, Rhand and even me! HALF the players will have given their opinions. And that's assuming others don't join in. Since behavioral analysis is such a vital component, being able to provide such a large swath of targets is actually GOOD for the town.
By the time this is done, we could get to the point where half the town is proven Town. That makes it REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Or let's go the opposite direction. We suss out that there's actually 3 mafia within our discussion and we find them. Again, REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Ok, things aren't usually so cut and dried. Maybe there's only one or two in our discussion. We find them, and then start going through POE on the other 6.
tl;dr, painting a bull's-eye on your back can be perfectly townie because of the way it causes those around you to react.
Yeah, but TK it's all viewed through the WIFOM lense that you've now created and there are plenty of ways to press other players and draw reactions without doing that.
Let's look at the sequence of events: FIGHTING starts to pressure you and linking you with PaperBlade. PaperBlade has been the most commonly suspected player in the game, but you also had several people suspecting you. You have PaperBlade as your top suspect but your push on him has been rather tame compared to your vote on Blue prior to knowing who she was. You tell FIGHTING that you've been letting her distract you from pressuring Paper.
Then Rhand replaces in and you ask him how he feels about being your buddy and asking him if FIGHTING will believe it.
Then you conclude that you liked the way he handled the pressure, saying that you liked his aggressiveness and reasoning while saying that you don't want to judge him based on the actions of his predecessor.
The decision to approach it this way looks to be motivated from a place of trying to redeem your situation due to the pressure you were receiving. It intentionally creates WIFOM and, if Rhand was your top suspect, he was already suspected by many people in the game, so that move would be unnecessary compared to pretty much any other tact that pressured Rhand and didn't implicate yourself. There are also other things that are off, to me, like saying that you're messing with FIGHTING prior to actually getting a reaction from FIGHTING so she knows that you're messing with her prior to giving a reaction.
If this was a beneficial move for town, more people would do it other than Nai who, per Blue, was a Mason so he had someone else to know what he was up to.
Yes, I have a Town read on TK, but how does that guarantee that TK will flip Town? I do not know his alignment. Good smear on you're part there and then calling for votes on me on top of that.
I don't like that anyone has an opinion about TK because of his whole buddy thing. There was so much WIFOM that nobody should have an opinion about it.
And Void looks bad for his opinion and reasoning and defense of TK. (The others look nowhere as bad for having an opinion as Void. Rhand and DCIII's vote look like gut reactions, while Cythare's vote is the final straw in a case against TK).
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
Why I don't like this post:
1. Their is a lot of logic behind why what TK did was town-minded, despite the fact that what TK did was textbook WIFOM since it makes no sense for either scum or town to say what he did.
2. He calls TK a scum hunting pro for that move. Void is trying to put TK up as untouchable with that sentence.
3. He takes a swipe at anybody voting TK for what he did.
Basically Void takes some WIFOM which produced some negative gut reactions (gut reactions which are understandable) and tries to use it to defend TK and make it so that anyone attacking him is scummy.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that 3 votes wasn't enough.
To further address the TK posting: How long would you expect a Scum TK to last for after making that post? If TK is Scum with Rhand or Paperblade or FIGHTING then it will come out in the wash. The interaction, by itself, is weird enough that if any of those 3 flip Scum, then TK will be a likely Scum buddy and get lots of pressure for it. At this point TK is a better Vig target than he is a lynch target, but that doesn't matter since TK is Town.
Call it WIFOM if you like too, but there is more to it than just chopping it short like you are DCIII.
Again some very convoluted logic on this TK situation. He goes through an entire situation on how TK should probably be handled because of his WIFOM play, but then at the end handwaves it all away by stating that it doesn't matter since TK is town.
Void's reactions to the TK situation don't make himself look good and by association make TK not look good.
Unvote
I don't like that anyone has an opinion about TK because of his whole buddy thing. There was so much WIFOM that nobody should have an opinion about it.
And Void looks bad for his opinion and reasoning and defense of TK. (The others look nowhere as bad for having an opinion as Void. Rhand and DCIII's vote look like gut reactions, while Cythare's vote is the final straw in a case against TK).
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
Why I don't like this post:
1. Their is a lot of logic behind why what TK did was town-minded, despite the fact that what TK did was textbook WIFOM since it makes no sense for either scum or town to say what he did.
2. He calls TK a scum hunting pro for that move. Void is trying to put TK up as untouchable with that sentence.
3. He takes a swipe at anybody voting TK for what he did.
Basically Void takes some WIFOM which produced some negative gut reactions (gut reactions which are understandable) and tries to use it to defend TK and make it so that anyone attacking him is scummy.
Void - if you thought TK was genuinely doing a good job of scumhunting, why wouldn't you have let that ride a little bit longer to see who else joined the wagon?
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that 3 votes wasn't enough.
To further address the TK posting: How long would you expect a Scum TK to last for after making that post? If TK is Scum with Rhand or Paperblade or FIGHTING then it will come out in the wash. The interaction, by itself, is weird enough that if any of those 3 flip Scum, then TK will be a likely Scum buddy and get lots of pressure for it. At this point TK is a better Vig target than he is a lynch target, but that doesn't matter since TK is Town.
Call it WIFOM if you like too, but there is more to it than just chopping it short like you are DCIII.
Again some very convoluted logic on this TK situation. He goes through an entire situation on how TK should probably be handled because of his WIFOM play, but then at the end handwaves it all away by stating that it doesn't matter since TK is town.
Void's reactions to the TK situation don't make himself look good and by association make TK not look good.
Unvote
Vote Void
And you still can't read me... This push is really bad.
As stated, BY DCIII, it's not complete WIFOM and yet you are treating it like it pure WIFOM.
1) While you may not be able to see through it, I can. I have even outlined why this makes more sense from a Town mindset then it does a Scum mindset.
2) TK is a Scum hunting pro from my perspective. Does that mean that everyone has to take my word for Gospel? Oh, wait, they didn't.
3) Because the votes are bad. What TK did makes more sense from a Town perspective than a Scum perspective.
Once again, it's not complete WIFOM. I am taking what I can from what TK did to get a better read on him for Day 1. If that means defending TK, then I will. The only way I won't defend TK is when if we start getting flips that show that TK may be Scum. Until then, TK is not something we need to worry about.
Convoluted logic? Hardly.
Since you believe that TK is Scum (with me), then would agree that if Rhand, Paperblade or FIGHTING flipped Scum that TK would receive pressure for it?
Also, just because I am saying that TK is Town doesn't mean that everyone MUST listen to me. There is a chance that I am wrong and everyone knows this, but you are taking what I did and turning it into a Scum mindset because that is how you want to view it. If you were Town Guardman, then I know you would have seen the Town mindset in what I did and would have had a different approach than what you just did.
inb4 I am being self-aware and WIFOM: If I were Scum what kind of Town credit would I get for taking the stance I did? If TK flips Scum, then I am an almost guaranteed lynch shortly afterwards.
And you still can't read me... This push is really bad.
As stated, BY DCIII, it's not complete WIFOM and yet you are treating it like it pure WIFOM.
1) While you may not be able to see through it, I can. I have even outlined why this makes more sense from a Town mindset then it does a Scum mindset.
2) TK is a Scum hunting pro from my perspective. Does that mean that everyone has to take my word for Gospel? Oh, wait, they didn't.
3) Because the votes are bad. What TK did makes more sense from a Town perspective than a Scum perspective.
Once again, it's not complete WIFOM. I am taking what I can from what TK did to get a better read on him for Day 1. If that means defending TK, then I will. The only way I won't defend TK is when if we start getting flips that show that TK may be Scum. Until then, TK is not something we need to worry about.
Convoluted logic? Hardly.
Since you believe that TK is Scum (with me), then would agree that if Rhand, Paperblade or FIGHTING flipped Scum that TK would receive pressure for it?
Also, just because I am saying that TK is Town doesn't mean that everyone MUST listen to me. There is a chance that I am wrong and everyone knows this, but you are taking what I did and turning it into a Scum mindset because that is how you want to view it. If you were Town Guardman, then I know you would have seen the Town mindset in what I did and would have had a different approach than what you just did.
inb4 I am being self-aware and WIFOM: If I were Scum what kind of Town credit would I get for taking the stance I did? If TK flips Scum, then I am an almost guaranteed lynch shortly afterwards.
1. Well I am going full defiant here, but anyone who thinks otherwise is either delusional or wrong. The entire thing is 100% WIFOM. It can be nothing else with the public knowledge.
2. You put TK up on high (excuse my phrasing but for the life of me I can't spell the piece of furniture I am looking for close enough so that spell check can correct it for me). You did this. And if you are stating this then you are obviously trying to make it known you think it. The very fact you are stating you think so highly of him and that you take a swipe at those voting for him sends a message that TK is town and anybody attacking him is scummy for it. It's 2+2=4.
3. Well for one your logic is bad. Even ignoring the fact it's WIFOM, you have to take a big leap to think that TK had the foresight to do this. Nobody plans to try and make somebody look like they are buddies together. If we are being logical TK either had an epic moment of derp or thought he was being humorous.
Also Void your attack on me seems a bit off since your reason for thinking I am scum seems to be that if I was town I would know you are town, but by definition I would be much more certain you were town if I was scum and you were not, while if I am town I by definition would have no idea if you are town other than what I derive and think. So basically you attacking me for not thinking you are town doesn't make sense.
As the Rhand/paperblade and fighting flips you again assume that TK actually thought about his actions. His actions on the other hand show thinking wasn't at the forefront of his mind when he posted it. The lack of thought with his actions and the way it can't be reconcile with a town or scum mindset (Just to get this out of the way again - Void your reconciliation is wrong) is why it is 100% grade A WIFOM.
Again Void your defense of TK on the grounds of defending TK is pure WIFOM. I don't know. Nobody knows except you. He could be too valuable of a scumbuddy to let be lynched. You could be trying defend someone you know is town and has some questionable votes on them to gain towny credit, especially when they flip. All I know is your defense of TK smells like fish and when there is fish there is fire.
Down to brass tacks:
@DC3 (re:139): Reads to come soon. I have to get back in the game and ask some questions before I commit to anything.
@FIGHTING: Did you reread iRebel?
@TK-421: Do you think FIGHTING is not town?
@Rhand: (Re:#199) I really like the way you managed to:
1. Not give a t/s list per FIGHTING's request
2. Imply that scum want your t/s list
3. Say you would give a t/s list if there were more support.
Who would ask you for your list after you've basically said, "If you ask me for this list then you are scum"?
@Void: Why are you buddying up with TK so hard?
This player list looks like a blast and I'm sure the flavor will be great, but I just can't play Basics. I have 0 motivation and I can't get into the game. You need a better player.
/replace
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
As the team raced to their ship, screams could be from inside as the panic crept into those left inside.
"Get in your seats and buckle up!" TK-421 shouted to the rest of the crew. "And you might want to hold on to something, when that puppy blows we might get a little turbulence!"
"Do we have a child size seat in here?" Void asked from the back of the ship. "I can't find one anywhere."
"Why do you need one? There isn't even anyone that small on here." Blue Electric was clearly confused.
"Oh, I grabbed Robo-puppy on the way out. He's too cute to leave in there!" Void was buckling Robo-puppy in to his seat.
"Robo-puppy will self destruct in T-1 minute."
"..."
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH."
_______________________
TK-421 (3): Rhand, DCIII, Cythare
iRebel (2): Void, Blue Electric
Rhand (1): FIGHTING
Guardman (1): Idle Muse
Void (1): Guardman
Not Voting: iRebel, TK-421, Rezombied, Shockwave07
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
However, considering that Paper seems to be an easy lynch, why would I not go for it? Because he's my buddy? Hardly, I'm always glad to lynch my buddies. So much so that it seems to get me day-killed on Day 1 every time. My own meta suggests that Blue is actually my buddy, and not paper, if I am mafia. I am not however.
Ah, but you see, there's a difference between bussing and outting. No, if Rhand and I were legitimately buddies, I would actually have some kind of case against him instead of fumbling around with the case about voting Void for his RVS no lynch.
There is a difference, but given your other play, you'll forgive me if I don't take you at your word here that this isn't something you'd do as scum.
Good. I wouldn't ask you to take my word on what I would and wouldn't do as mafia. But I stand by what I said about the difference.
Anyway, DCIII, is it bad for there to be doubts on those who didn't have them? Let's say we're at the conclusion of this debate of whether mafia!TK would post something like this. In the mean time, we've now learned a lot about you, Void, Cythare, FIGHTING, Rhand and even me! HALF the players will have given their opinions. And that's assuming others don't join in. Since behavioral analysis is such a vital component, being able to provide such a large swath of targets is actually GOOD for the town.
By the time this is done, we could get to the point where half the town is proven Town. That makes it REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Or let's go the opposite direction. We suss out that there's actually 3 mafia within our discussion and we find them. Again, REALLY hard for the mafia to win. Ok, things aren't usually so cut and dried. Maybe there's only one or two in our discussion. We find them, and then start going through POE on the other 6.
tl;dr, painting a bull's-eye on your back can be perfectly townie because of the way it causes those around you to react.
Yeah, but TK it's all viewed through the WIFOM lense that you've now created and there are plenty of ways to press other players and draw reactions without doing that.
Let's look at the sequence of events: FIGHTING starts to pressure you and linking you with PaperBlade. PaperBlade has been the most commonly suspected player in the game, but you also had several people suspecting you. You have PaperBlade as your top suspect but your push on him has been rather tame compared to your vote on Blue prior to knowing who she was. You tell FIGHTING that you've been letting her distract you from pressuring Paper.
Then Rhand replaces in and you ask him how he feels about being your buddy and asking him if FIGHTING will believe it.
Then you conclude that you liked the way he handled the pressure, saying that you liked his aggressiveness and reasoning while saying that you don't want to judge him based on the actions of his predecessor.
The decision to approach it this way looks to be motivated from a place of trying to redeem your situation due to the pressure you were receiving. It intentionally creates WIFOM and, if Rhand was your top suspect, he was already suspected by many people in the game, so that move would be unnecessary compared to pretty much any other tact that pressured Rhand and didn't implicate yourself. There are also other things that are off, to me, like saying that you're messing with FIGHTING prior to actually getting a reaction from FIGHTING so she knows that you're messing with her prior to giving a reaction.
If this was a beneficial move for town, more people would do it other than Nai who, per Blue, was a Mason so he had someone else to know what he was up to.
I want to start with the messing with FIGHTING. First, I'm not looking for reactions from FIGHTING. You're trying to read too much into me being a jerk
Now, as for being WIFOM-laden. It starts out that way, yes. My reading of Rhand from anyone else's perspective is full of WIFOM, but since I was reading from my own perspective, it's fine. Now for the other arguments, they are not dependent on my arguments. I'm sure you can create reads from how Guardman and Void interact about what I've done. WIFOM may have started it, but it's not included in other's arguments.
@FIGHTING: Given the way that TK-421 has been dancing around voting Paper/Rhand and his recent stuff, I'd prefer to lynch him over Paper. I could see a scenario where scum!TK-421 is trying to capitalize on town!Paper's bad play, and then upon a town!Paper flip is able to survive scrutiny for "not being as sure about it as others", gaining a mislynch for his team. I don't think lynching Paper toDay is the right call, since scum!TK could be approaching Paper from this angle regardless of Paper's alignment.
TLDR: Lynch TK-421 toDay, then reassess Paper/Rhand toMorrow. iRebel is still a suspect to me, but TK's play reeks.
Unvote Vote: TK-421
I didn't think of it that way, but I like it. I'm still more interested in Rhand right now though.
What TK did makes little sense from a Scum perspective. It would be rather ballsy for him try and gambit a read on a possible Town member that way when the player may not even be a Town PR... let alone Town. But doing that kind of behavior with a Scum buddy make no sense. It garters little to no Town cred.
In other words: TK is a Scum hunting pro with that move.
These three votes will be very telling later in the game.
More votes on iRebel though. He is still more likely to be Scum than anyone else here thus far.
TK is not a pro. He's just bad. He's also bad at trolling, as if he has heard about it and thinks it would be cool to try, but doesn't actually know how it's done.
My point here is that TK is the type who thinks he is smarter than he is and will run gambit plays to try and accomplish something, but fail.
He does this as either alignment, and as I pointed out earlier he is aware enough of this that I don't see it as a tell. Therefore, we have to look at the stuff that actually is important.
I don't like giving early town reads because they help scum enormously when deciding who needs to die at night.
I will comply if there is more support for this, but I don't like your "I am the boss" attitude.
I am the boss.
Oh and, as I always say, your reads no more important than anybody else's, so just post them. This attitude of "I don't want to help scum" sounds nice but really doesn't mean anything since 1) it's just your reads, not everybody's; and 2) if the scum are really interested in finding out where the town stands they can just look at the vote counts.
... I feel like I go through this every single game.
@rezombied: no. Ask me again on Day 3 when I start rereading. Or make a case so I can just read that. My brain holds only one piece of information at a time, and right now that is getting Rhand to give me a TS list.
@guardman: I'm pretty sure void is town. I haven't gotten any of the usual scumvoid vibes this game.
I'll give my T/S because my favorite she-male asked for it
Town
Void: very clearly in his town!meta. Scum!Void is a lot less straightforward and more apologetic.
Cythare: I have very recently finished a game where I was scum with Cythare. His behavior here is different. He's hunting instead of lurking and barning.
Asenion / Shockwave: Asenion replacing out because he can't get his head in the game proves the thoughts I had on him: he's town and doesn't find something mechanical or flavorish to grab onto.
Leaning town:
Idle Muse: The fight between Muse and Guardman looks like non-aligned players fighting. I have a scum read on Guardman, making Idle Muse lean town.
DCIII: I keep swinging back and forth between townread and scumread with DCII. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because he seems to hunt scum. I'm definately not interested in his lynch until we have bodies to analyse interactions.
null:
Rezombied: is he in this game? He didn't leave an impact on me whatsoever. His catchup post is a bit weird. (I'll respond to it in a seperate post)
Blue: no read yet because Iso.
iRebel: I've played with iRebel as scum and iRebel as town and he doesn't feel like any of those. His town play is usually more analytic. He's V/LA a lot, which might be the cause.
leaning scum:
Fighting: Hate the attitude, which might color my view. His bull-headed push for my lynch is weird. Especially his answer to Cythare in his last post seems like "yes you found scum and we could lynch it, but here, vote someone else!"
Scum:
Guardman: I hate his attack on Void. I dislike how he outed Iso, showing he is not reading the game. In #116, he comes up with a big reasoning for that while saying Muse is overthinking it. This shows dishonesty. His attack on Muse was more a smearcampaign than a scumhunt.
TK-421: I dislike his first "I missed RVS but I will ignore that" post. Especially because he didn't unvote after making his 'RVS' vote." #52 is an opportunistic vote. #53 is a smear. #57 is useless questioning. #84 reads to me as 'my buddy Guardman did something scummy, but luckily a member from town finds it ok so I don't have to bus him for it' (which is ofc. total bull if Guardman flips town). #93 is a lie (he did say he finds low post counts suspicious in #84). From #114 on, he starts explaining that he is bussing buddies and tries to implicate my predecessor. From then on, his posts seem to be meant to throw us in some kind of chaos.
@Guardman:
I'm not sure how you thought I was saying "If you are Town you would I am Town".
The point I was getting across is that if you were Town Guardman that you would see the Town motivation in what I did. But you solely focused on the Scum motivation and twisted what you saw to fit your view.
Down to brass tacks:
@DC3 (re:139): Reads to come soon. I have to get back in the game and ask some questions before I commit to anything.
@FIGHTING: Did you reread iRebel?
@TK-421: Do you think FIGHTING is not town?
@Rhand: (Re:#199) I really like the way you managed to:
1. Not give a t/s list per FIGHTING's request
2. Imply that scum want your t/s list
3. Say you would give a t/s list if there were more support.
Who would ask you for your list after you've basically said, "If you ask me for this list then you are scum"?
@Void: Why are you buddying up with TK so hard?
iRebel hasn't posted in quite a while.
Please explain why you need these exact questions answered before you can provide reads. These are my issues:
* Why would FIGHTING's read of iRebel influence yours?
* Why ask both me and Void a leading question? That implies your mind is already made up on the answer; otherwise you would ask those questions more openly.
To answer the @Rhand: If you get PR's to post their T/S'es and you guess correctly who the PR's are, you can pretty much guess their target at Night. It helps choosing who should perform the kill (i.e. who will not be tracked or jailed) and who should not be target for the kill (i.e. who will be doc'ed or watched).
Votecounts, as FIGHTING suggests, are not sufficient for that analysis: they help with deciding who needs to perform the kill, but not with deciding who is not a good NK target.
That does not imply that people asking for T/S lists are scum. T/S lists do have benefits for town as well, especially when you get a scum to post one.
So if more people than just Fighting suspect me enough to want my T/S, I do comply. Which seems to be the case, so I posted it.
@Guardman:
I'm not sure how you thought I was saying "If you are Town you would I am Town".
The point I was getting across is that if you were Town Guardman that you would see the Town motivation in what I did. But you solely focused on the Scum motivation and twisted what you saw to fit your view.
More to come later if I have the time.
But I don't see any town motivation in what you did.
Also you keep saying if I was town Guardman I would see this, but this predisposes:
1. You have a good grasp on my thought patterns as town versus my thought patterns as scum.
2. Understand how my mind works.
On one probably the only person I know who understands my thought patterns town versus scum is kpaca. On two I don't even know how my mind works (I just follow what it tells me).
So I highly doubt you know what I should be thinking on your actions when I am town.
[QUOTE=Void;/comments/12599957]But I don't see any town motivation in what you did.
And this is where you screwed up, Guardman.
How is it possible to screw up what I see?
What I see is red is red.
Void your attacking me is creeping dangerously close to OMGUS levels. You are spending more time attacking me over not seeing your town mindset (and therefore I am scum because of it) then even attempting to continue the dialogue on why I am calling you scum.
I'll give my T/S because my favorite she-male asked for it
Town
Void: very clearly in his town!meta. Scum!Void is a lot less straightforward and more apologetic.
Cythare: I have very recently finished a game where I was scum with Cythare. His behavior here is different. He's hunting instead of lurking and barning.
Asenion / Shockwave: Asenion replacing out because he can't get his head in the game proves the thoughts I had on him: he's town and doesn't find something mechanical or flavorish to grab onto.
Leaning town:
Idle Muse: The fight between Muse and Guardman looks like non-aligned players fighting. I have a scum read on Guardman, making Idle Muse lean town.
DCIII: I keep swinging back and forth between townread and scumread with DCII. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because he seems to hunt scum. I'm definately not interested in his lynch until we have bodies to analyse interactions.
null:
Rezombied: is he in this game? He didn't leave an impact on me whatsoever. His catchup post is a bit weird. (I'll respond to it in a seperate post)
Blue: no read yet because Iso.
iRebel: I've played with iRebel as scum and iRebel as town and he doesn't feel like any of those. His town play is usually more analytic. He's V/LA a lot, which might be the cause.
leaning scum:
Fighting: Hate the attitude, which might color my view. His bull-headed push for my lynch is weird. Especially his answer to Cythare in his last post seems like "yes you found scum and we could lynch it, but here, vote someone else!"
Scum:
Guardman: I hate his attack on Void. I dislike how he outed Iso, showing he is not reading the game. In #116, he comes up with a big reasoning for that while saying Muse is overthinking it. This shows dishonesty. His attack on Muse was more a smearcampaign than a scumhunt.
TK-421: I dislike his first "I missed RVS but I will ignore that" post. Especially because he didn't unvote after making his 'RVS' vote." #52 is an opportunistic vote. #53 is a smear. #57 is useless questioning. #84 reads to me as 'my buddy Guardman did something scummy, but luckily a member from town finds it ok so I don't have to bus him for it' (which is ofc. total bull if Guardman flips town). #93 is a lie (he did say he finds low post counts suspicious in #84). From #114 on, he starts explaining that he is bussing buddies and tries to implicate my predecessor. From then on, his posts seem to be meant to throw us in some kind of chaos.
The reason I ask for T/S lists from people when they replace in, especially people who are under pressure, is that it gives you excellent content to analyze in a standardized format. If they refuse, that's fine too, since you get to look at why they refused (or bully them until they comply, as happened here).
Once they post it, you get to look at their reasoning and placements. My impression of this list is favorable. He's not just sheeping the popular opinion (and, more telling, he both disagrees with me on some reads and put me as leaning scum, so he isn't letting the intimidation factor color his reads), isn't afraid to put null reads (but also doesn't have a lot of them), and has good reasoning and evidence for pretty much everything.
tl;dr, this is a townie's T/S list.
With that said, unvote vote TK.
This reminds me that I forgot to do this: Shockwave, you're next for posting a T/S list.
Please explain why you need these exact questions answered before you can provide reads. These are my issues:
* Why would FIGHTING's read of iRebel influence yours?
* Why ask both me and Void a leading question? That implies your mind is already made up on the answer; otherwise you would ask those questions more openly.
-I'm able to read better when I'm participating in the conversation. Reading through and guessing intents based on responses to the questions posed by others isn't that easy for me.
-It wouldn't necessarily. But FIGHTING said she was going to and didn't. I wanted to be sure I hadn't missed it.
-I asked the questions the way I did to inspire introspection. I agree with how they are stated.
@Void - not a smear, it's trying to figure out your mindset when you made that post and not being to reconcile it as town.
You're confident that TK is town, you've said that several times... so introducing that he'd be a better vig target than a lynch doesn't make sense.
If you personally are sold that he's town, why are you even suggesting that a vig would be a better idea? I understand that you say you're convinced and not everyone else is which is why you say that we don't know anything about his alignment - but we don't know anything about anyone's alignment by that standard. You think he's town - so why are you appealing to the idea of him being a better vig target than lynch at all? Why not just push your town read on him, say that he's a bad lynch and leave the vig aspect out of it altogether if you're that convinced? Furthermore, why would a vig on a null read be better than a lynch on a null read? The player is dead either way.
It doesn't jive to me. It reads like the mindset of someone who is trying to manufacture things that sound convincing to make the point stronger rather than just relying on the town read on the player.
Your full defense of TK in general is bad, in my opinion. I disagree that it's a more beneficial play for town than scum for reasons I've already stated, but it also doesn't make sense that if you think his play was such a good tact for scum hunting that you intervened when you did rather than letting it play out more. You also jumped in for him prior to him giving a full defense of himself. As town, I would think you'd want TK to explain in more detail his thought process even if you thought you already knew what it was.
@Guardman - I'm not sure why you're saying that the TK situation is entire WIFOM, because it isn't. He didn't derp and wasn't trying to be humorous - he said as much that he modeled his play after another player he saw do the same thing... and now he's saying that he did it for the town benefit of eliciting reads but that his other comments were simply to mess with FIGHTING because that's fun to do. So he's attempting to elicit reads through the WIFOM he's created but he's also simply messing with FIGHTING at the same time. It doesn't read as authentic to me and I see much more scum motivation in that action than town and do not buy that it's benign or null.
@Rhand - You have TK at the very bottom of your read list and Void at the very top despite Void saying that TK was being an expert scum hunter and reading him as town. You obviously disagree with Void's assessment since you're voting for TK. What are your views on Void's stance on TK and how does that fit with your town read on him?
@Guardman - I'm not sure why you're saying that the TK situation is entire WIFOM, because it isn't. He didn't derp and wasn't trying to be humorous - he said as much that he modeled his play after another player he saw do the same thing... and now he's saying that he did it for the town benefit of eliciting reads but that his other comments were simply to mess with FIGHTING because that's fun to do. So he's attempting to elicit reads through the WIFOM he's created but he's also simply messing with FIGHTING at the same time. It doesn't read as authentic to me and I see much more scum motivation in that action than town and do not buy that it's benign or null.
While what you are saying is correct about the TK situation after the fact, when people were voting and Void defending TK none of this was said. When these reactions were made everything was 100% WIFOM. I think we can look back at it better now based on what TK is saying, but that doesn't change the fact that there was nothing to look at when he did it.
While what you are saying is correct about the TK situation after the fact, when people were voting and Void defending TK none of this was said. When these reactions were made everything was 100% WIFOM. I think we can look back at it better now based on what TK is saying, but that doesn't change the fact that there was nothing to look at when he did it.[/font][/COLOR]
Not true. Post #184. He didn't elaborate as much as he did later but he indicates that he was trying to get a read on Rhand and that he likes how Rhand responded.
It was clear at that point that he had done it intentionally and wasn't joking.
Plus, declaring it a joke afterward would have been very hard to believe given the pressure he was facing and even as a joke it's still a knowing decision to cast yourself in that light without being immediately transparent that you aren't being serious.
Either way, it's a conscious decision from a player under pressure to make a statement that creates WIFOM.
While what you are saying is correct about the TK situation after the fact, when people were voting and Void defending TK none of this was said. When these reactions were made everything was 100% WIFOM. I think we can look back at it better now based on what TK is saying, but that doesn't change the fact that there was nothing to look at when he did it.[/font][/COLOR]
Not true. Post #184. He didn't elaborate as much as he did later but he indicates that he was trying to get a read on Rhand and that he likes how Rhand responded.
It was clear at that point that he had done it intentionally and wasn't joking.
I disagree, to me it's still WIFOM because that still doesn't make sense from a town or a scum perspective. And their is not enough of any thing there to change that fact. When these things were made his actions make no sense for any alignment, therefore there is nothing to be analyzed/concluded from that as their is nothing town nor scum about it, hence the WIFOM.
I still feel that there is a lot of WIFOM with regards to TK and his "buddy" attempt. But there is at least more to process about thought process than something that makes no sense no matter how you look at it.[/font][/COLOR]
It doesn't make any sense that a scum TK, feeling pressure from FIGHTING about being Paper/Rhand's scum buddy and also taking flak for having him as his top suspect without voting him might claim that Rhand is his scumbuddy and say that he liked Rhand's response to his play?
Firstly it creates the whole, "If TK were actually scum, would he do that?" WIFOM that Void has used as an argument for his actions being townie.
If he's scum and Rhand is town and he flips first, it implicates Rhand. If Rhand flips first, it makes TK look better because he reached the verdict that his responses were good so he's clearing a town player that was under scrutiny.
If they're scum together - which is what Fighting was alleging, it creates WIFOM around whether or not TK would really implicate both if they were both scum. If TK were to flip first, it will look like he was just trying to implicate Rhand. If Rhand flips first, TK can still say that he was using it as a ploy to get a read on Rhand. Also, if both are scum buddies, a play like this creates distractions with the reactions to him so if the two were being suspected already, this puts scrutiny on everyone else's reactions to his play which would be a good thing if he and his teammate were both under duress.
If there was already a loud case that he was Rhand's scumbuddy, which there was, and he was already starting to be suspected regularly, which he was, then making a play like this to confuse the situation and introduce WIFOM does make sense.
Agreed that it doesn't make sense as town. Rhand was already under scrutiny and there were plenty of ways to go about questioning him and other players without TK implicating himself.
It makes much more sense that he would try this as scum than town to me.
@DCIII Re:Void and TK
I think Void is just wrong in his read. That doesn't make him scum.
Sidenote: Looking for connections between players on Day 1 before we have bodies to work with is dangerous. The first lynch should be decided on one player's behavior and interactions analysed after the flip, not before.
This game inspired me to watch Futurama from season one again.
My new favorite quote:
(Bender to Leila) 'I wouldn't be talking about taste if I were wearing a light green tanktop'
Next scene: Leila wears a white tanktop.
uh, so to answer your question directly I do think TK is scummier, but I wanted to make sure Rhand did what I asked before I moved on.
Ok, I guess?
On getting T/S lists from people who replace in: I'd prefer to get a better sense of the people that haven't really supplied as much of late but haven't replaced out - like rezombied and Idle Muse. Both have promised to include some content after catching up soon, but this game is moving somewhat slowly, so hopefully their content will come soon, not SoonTM.
---------------------
@Guardman: What is your actual stance on TK-421 right now? All I see you discussing about him is that his "Rhand's my buddy" events are WIFOM, but outside of this, what is your opinion of him overall?
Alright, this is just a cursory read. Currently read through the finish of page eight, this list is very likely to have at least a few changes once I have finished catching up. These wall posts are slowing me down.
But anyways starting with my reads:
Town
FIGHTING: I must admit, I like the early pressure you put on Blue Electric to keep her accountable for her vote on Paperblade. And while clearly your main focus you were not blind to other questions to press.
DCIII: While I may not always agree with the conclusions, the lines of questioning posed by him felt like those of a town mindset. Note early question asking Blue Electric about why the jump from Void to Paperblade if both were voting the same thing. I would think scum would be of the mind to let an issue like that fester instead of going straight after it.
Lean Town
Blue Electric: I must admit two things stuck out at first about Blue. One was the line of questioning the Lynch arguement. While developments did help flesh out why, it really didn't sit well with me that the whole arguement was hanging on the fact that Paperblade was a gimmick. I wish someone had asked how strongly she felt about possibly knowing who the gimmick was. The other thing was the possible hand wave of the Void/Paperblade vote switch.
The reason I feel strong that Blue is possible town however is that I feel that wasn't her main intention to tunnel Paper, but to get a ton of reactions based on the arguement. Now we have a ton of motivation based info because of this. Only reason why Blue is not auto-town at this point is a) lingering vote based sentiments, and b) clear Mafia vet.
Void: Show early signs of looking for other scum options early in the Blue/Paper Lynch Voet arguement. Lines of questioning imply looking for connections in a few cases. Not a lot of independent scum hunting though, outside of iRebel.
Idle Muse: Slow start, but not bad reasoning behind his posts, especially post Blue out. I may not agree with his view on what position the out leaves us, but the reaction seems appropriate for someone with as town.
Rezombied: Early posts follow along pushing other people's questions and reveal low experience. First real personal thoughts come in post #43 with noting confusion with Blue Electric's vote reasoning. My thoughts say this is probably town that doesn't quite get what's going on. Presses questions after Suspecting Blue for clarification.
Null
Paperblade (before Rhand replacing in): I don't see Paper as scum based on what was posted, but content is poor mostly agreeing with other cases. Could have used more personal hunting, but hard to tell. Might have been intimidated by combo of wall post carpet bombs and scum-tell beat stick. Will continue reading for signal from Paper or Rhand post replace.
Guardman: That Blue out. Couldn't have come at a more inoppertune time. That action clearly muddied some reads when it happened. Oddly enough though, I think it can play into our favor, watching who had hedged bets on Blue only to never return to them post out. Other that that moment, no clear motivations.
iRebel: Hard for me to get a read on. Because of low experience the back off post Blue outing could be either taken as scum not wanting to take out an experienced town!blue or simple new player not wanting to anger Blue now knowing real identity. I mean <redacted> is kind of the Nicol Bolas of mafia, not someone you ever want to face alone. Want this case to develope another day.
Cythare: Early posts are evasive in nature, but soon implies knowledge of Blue's identity. Pressures iRebel after what she feels is an evasive post. Could see slight antagonism (maybe playful in nature, maybe not) towards my slots previous controller.
Scum
TK-421: Comes off odd. Early discrediting to Void without clear intentions to persue him, the vote on Blue only to back of after outing, claims to understand players on site, yet uses self meta to implicate possible motivations of Blue. A lot of things don't add up.
Note: this is not final. Just what I would go off of if this was just to page eight... Which it isn't. But it isn't. Will probably take most of the rest of this day to finish up reads on all players, maybe even into tomorrow.
If Shockwave ever flips scum, we should lynch miss Blue.
The 'must admit' in both the read on Fighting and the read on Blue bother me:
He must admit that Fighting correctly attacks Blue AND he must admit that Blue was being scummy.
Nothing to pursue right now though: it is a possible connection and becomes important only when we have a flip of one of the two.
@Guardman: What is your actual stance on TK-421 right now? All I see you discussing about him is that his "Rhand's my buddy" events are WIFOM, but outside of this, what is your opinion of him overall?
I am getting caught up on reading tonight — depending on when I finish I might get to post tonight (I have to turn in earlier than usual tonight). If not, it'll come tomorrow morning at the latest.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
There is a difference, but given your other play, you'll forgive me if I don't take you at your word here that this isn't something you'd do as scum.
I get that the timing looks bad, but it is what it is. I hadn't been able to make too much time for this game until recently due to work commitments (and historically providing content during work), and his recent play reminded me of the quote that TK responded to above, so I reviewed his play this Day. As I noted, his recent posts looked manufactured, and while definitely not explicitly scummy, I also don't think they are as Town as Void is stating they are. They're null, and I noted them because they stood out, but they didn't inform my read - that came from earlier stuff that I should have picked up on earlier if I had been able to invest my time properly in the game from the start.
I'm still open to pursuing iRebel, as he's my other major suspect.
Ast stated above, historically, most of my Mafia play was done during business hours, but I've been ramping up at my job to take on more projects, so I'm unable to commit that time like I had in the past. Because of that, I need to do a lot of my play from home, where it's harder to get motivated after a long day of work. This is also why I've been limiting myself to 1 active game recently.
Regarding Guardman, I haven't really been paying attention to him. I noted before that I didn't like him proclaiming you Town despite clearly not reading all your content, but he has been flying under the radar of late, which is why I've been focusing more on others.
That said, he hasn't provided anything substantive in almost 6 days aside from defending himself from Idle Muse and Rhand. He wasn't this low on content early on in the last game I was in - where he was Town - but all of my reasons of having him leaning scum are based on my own interpretation of his actions (i.e. outing you, calling you Town based on few posts). In other words, I still have him slightly leaning scum because he hasn't done anything in the past week to change my read on him in either direction.
I'm more concerned about Asenion than Guardman, though. Guardman's content has been sparse, but not nearly as much as Asenion. I would love to see that content that he promised to provide yesterday after work.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Yeah, but TK it's all viewed through the WIFOM lense that you've now created and there are plenty of ways to press other players and draw reactions without doing that.
Let's look at the sequence of events: FIGHTING starts to pressure you and linking you with PaperBlade. PaperBlade has been the most commonly suspected player in the game, but you also had several people suspecting you. You have PaperBlade as your top suspect but your push on him has been rather tame compared to your vote on Blue prior to knowing who she was. You tell FIGHTING that you've been letting her distract you from pressuring Paper.
Then Rhand replaces in and you ask him how he feels about being your buddy and asking him if FIGHTING will believe it.
Then you conclude that you liked the way he handled the pressure, saying that you liked his aggressiveness and reasoning while saying that you don't want to judge him based on the actions of his predecessor.
The decision to approach it this way looks to be motivated from a place of trying to redeem your situation due to the pressure you were receiving. It intentionally creates WIFOM and, if Rhand was your top suspect, he was already suspected by many people in the game, so that move would be unnecessary compared to pretty much any other tact that pressured Rhand and didn't implicate yourself. There are also other things that are off, to me, like saying that you're messing with FIGHTING prior to actually getting a reaction from FIGHTING so she knows that you're messing with her prior to giving a reaction.
If this was a beneficial move for town, more people would do it other than Nai who, per Blue, was a Mason so he had someone else to know what he was up to.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Yes, I have a Town read on TK, but how does that guarantee that TK will flip Town? I do not know his alignment. Good smear on you're part there and then calling for votes on me on top of that.
I don't like that anyone has an opinion about TK because of his whole buddy thing. There was so much WIFOM that nobody should have an opinion about it.
And Void looks bad for his opinion and reasoning and defense of TK. (The others look nowhere as bad for having an opinion as Void. Rhand and DCIII's vote look like gut reactions, while Cythare's vote is the final straw in a case against TK).
Why I don't like this post:
1. Their is a lot of logic behind why what TK did was town-minded, despite the fact that what TK did was textbook WIFOM since it makes no sense for either scum or town to say what he did.
2. He calls TK a scum hunting pro for that move. Void is trying to put TK up as untouchable with that sentence.
3. He takes a swipe at anybody voting TK for what he did.
Basically Void takes some WIFOM which produced some negative gut reactions (gut reactions which are understandable) and tries to use it to defend TK and make it so that anyone attacking him is scummy.
Again some very convoluted logic on this TK situation. He goes through an entire situation on how TK should probably be handled because of his WIFOM play, but then at the end handwaves it all away by stating that it doesn't matter since TK is town.
Void's reactions to the TK situation don't make himself look good and by association make TK not look good.
Unvote
Vote Void
And you still can't read me... This push is really bad.
As stated, BY DCIII, it's not complete WIFOM and yet you are treating it like it pure WIFOM.
1) While you may not be able to see through it, I can. I have even outlined why this makes more sense from a Town mindset then it does a Scum mindset.
2) TK is a Scum hunting pro from my perspective. Does that mean that everyone has to take my word for Gospel? Oh, wait, they didn't.
3) Because the votes are bad. What TK did makes more sense from a Town perspective than a Scum perspective.
Once again, it's not complete WIFOM. I am taking what I can from what TK did to get a better read on him for Day 1. If that means defending TK, then I will. The only way I won't defend TK is when if we start getting flips that show that TK may be Scum. Until then, TK is not something we need to worry about.
Convoluted logic? Hardly.
Since you believe that TK is Scum (with me), then would agree that if Rhand, Paperblade or FIGHTING flipped Scum that TK would receive pressure for it?
Also, just because I am saying that TK is Town doesn't mean that everyone MUST listen to me. There is a chance that I am wrong and everyone knows this, but you are taking what I did and turning it into a Scum mindset because that is how you want to view it. If you were Town Guardman, then I know you would have seen the Town mindset in what I did and would have had a different approach than what you just did.
inb4 I am being self-aware and WIFOM: If I were Scum what kind of Town credit would I get for taking the stance I did? If TK flips Scum, then I am an almost guaranteed lynch shortly afterwards.
1. Well I am going full defiant here, but anyone who thinks otherwise is either delusional or wrong. The entire thing is 100% WIFOM. It can be nothing else with the public knowledge.
2. You put TK up on high (excuse my phrasing but for the life of me I can't spell the piece of furniture I am looking for close enough so that spell check can correct it for me). You did this. And if you are stating this then you are obviously trying to make it known you think it. The very fact you are stating you think so highly of him and that you take a swipe at those voting for him sends a message that TK is town and anybody attacking him is scummy for it. It's 2+2=4.
3. Well for one your logic is bad. Even ignoring the fact it's WIFOM, you have to take a big leap to think that TK had the foresight to do this. Nobody plans to try and make somebody look like they are buddies together. If we are being logical TK either had an epic moment of derp or thought he was being humorous.
Also Void your attack on me seems a bit off since your reason for thinking I am scum seems to be that if I was town I would know you are town, but by definition I would be much more certain you were town if I was scum and you were not, while if I am town I by definition would have no idea if you are town other than what I derive and think. So basically you attacking me for not thinking you are town doesn't make sense.
As the Rhand/paperblade and fighting flips you again assume that TK actually thought about his actions. His actions on the other hand show thinking wasn't at the forefront of his mind when he posted it. The lack of thought with his actions and the way it can't be reconcile with a town or scum mindset (Just to get this out of the way again - Void your reconciliation is wrong) is why it is 100% grade A WIFOM.
Again Void your defense of TK on the grounds of defending TK is pure WIFOM. I don't know. Nobody knows except you. He could be too valuable of a scumbuddy to let be lynched. You could be trying defend someone you know is town and has some questionable votes on them to gain towny credit, especially when they flip. All I know is your defense of TK smells like fish and when there is fish there is fire.
Down to brass tacks:
@DC3 (re:139): Reads to come soon. I have to get back in the game and ask some questions before I commit to anything.
@FIGHTING: Did you reread iRebel?
@TK-421: Do you think FIGHTING is not town?
@Rhand: (Re:#199) I really like the way you managed to:
1. Not give a t/s list per FIGHTING's request
2. Imply that scum want your t/s list
3. Say you would give a t/s list if there were more support.
Who would ask you for your list after you've basically said, "If you ask me for this list then you are scum"?
@Void: Why are you buddying up with TK so hard?
iRebel hasn't posted in quite a while.
/replace
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Searching for a replacement for Asenionand Vote count coming up.Shockwave07 replaces Asenion effective immediately. Please give him a warm welcome.
iRebel has been prodded.
"Get in your seats and buckle up!" TK-421 shouted to the rest of the crew. "And you might want to hold on to something, when that puppy blows we might get a little turbulence!"
"Do we have a child size seat in here?" Void asked from the back of the ship. "I can't find one anywhere."
"Why do you need one? There isn't even anyone that small on here." Blue Electric was clearly confused.
"Oh, I grabbed Robo-puppy on the way out. He's too cute to leave in there!" Void was buckling Robo-puppy in to his seat.
"Robo-puppy will self destruct in T-1 minute."
"..."
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH."
_______________________
TK-421 (3): Rhand, DCIII, Cythare
iRebel (2): Void, Blue Electric
Rhand (1): FIGHTING
Guardman (1): Idle Muse
Void (1): Guardman
Not Voting: iRebel, TK-421, Rezombied, Shockwave07
If you notice any errors please let me know.
Noted and updated.
Don't worry I plan on doing my part none the less. Will get a read going.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Good. I wouldn't ask you to take my word on what I would and wouldn't do as mafia. But I stand by what I said about the difference.
I want to start with the messing with FIGHTING. First, I'm not looking for reactions from FIGHTING. You're trying to read too much into me being a jerk
Now, as for being WIFOM-laden. It starts out that way, yes. My reading of Rhand from anyone else's perspective is full of WIFOM, but since I was reading from my own perspective, it's fine. Now for the other arguments, they are not dependent on my arguments. I'm sure you can create reads from how Guardman and Void interact about what I've done. WIFOM may have started it, but it's not included in other's arguments.
Why? Because I'm trolling FIGHTING? No, FIGHTING's got a town lean to me. But who can resist such fun
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I didn't think of it that way, but I like it. I'm still more interested in Rhand right now though.
TK is not a pro. He's just bad. He's also bad at trolling, as if he has heard about it and thinks it would be cool to try, but doesn't actually know how it's done.
My point here is that TK is the type who thinks he is smarter than he is and will run gambit plays to try and accomplish something, but fail.
He does this as either alignment, and as I pointed out earlier he is aware enough of this that I don't see it as a tell. Therefore, we have to look at the stuff that actually is important.
I am the boss.
Oh and, as I always say, your reads no more important than anybody else's, so just post them. This attitude of "I don't want to help scum" sounds nice but really doesn't mean anything since 1) it's just your reads, not everybody's; and 2) if the scum are really interested in finding out where the town stands they can just look at the vote counts.
... I feel like I go through this every single game.
@rezombied: no. Ask me again on Day 3 when I start rereading. Or make a case so I can just read that. My brain holds only one piece of information at a time, and right now that is getting Rhand to give me a TS list.
@guardman: I'm pretty sure void is town. I haven't gotten any of the usual scumvoid vibes this game.
hi shockwave and rhand
Town
Void: very clearly in his town!meta. Scum!Void is a lot less straightforward and more apologetic.
Cythare: I have very recently finished a game where I was scum with Cythare. His behavior here is different. He's hunting instead of lurking and barning.
Asenion / Shockwave: Asenion replacing out because he can't get his head in the game proves the thoughts I had on him: he's town and doesn't find something mechanical or flavorish to grab onto.
Leaning town:
Idle Muse: The fight between Muse and Guardman looks like non-aligned players fighting. I have a scum read on Guardman, making Idle Muse lean town.
DCIII: I keep swinging back and forth between townread and scumread with DCII. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because he seems to hunt scum. I'm definately not interested in his lynch until we have bodies to analyse interactions.
null:
Rezombied: is he in this game? He didn't leave an impact on me whatsoever. His catchup post is a bit weird. (I'll respond to it in a seperate post)
Blue: no read yet because Iso.
iRebel: I've played with iRebel as scum and iRebel as town and he doesn't feel like any of those. His town play is usually more analytic. He's V/LA a lot, which might be the cause.
leaning scum:
Fighting: Hate the attitude, which might color my view. His bull-headed push for my lynch is weird. Especially his answer to Cythare in his last post seems like "yes you found scum and we could lynch it, but here, vote someone else!"
Scum:
Guardman: I hate his attack on Void. I dislike how he outed Iso, showing he is not reading the game. In #116, he comes up with a big reasoning for that while saying Muse is overthinking it. This shows dishonesty. His attack on Muse was more a smearcampaign than a scumhunt.
TK-421: I dislike his first "I missed RVS but I will ignore that" post. Especially because he didn't unvote after making his 'RVS' vote." #52 is an opportunistic vote. #53 is a smear. #57 is useless questioning. #84 reads to me as 'my buddy Guardman did something scummy, but luckily a member from town finds it ok so I don't have to bus him for it' (which is ofc. total bull if Guardman flips town). #93 is a lie (he did say he finds low post counts suspicious in #84). From #114 on, he starts explaining that he is bussing buddies and tries to implicate my predecessor. From then on, his posts seem to be meant to throw us in some kind of chaos.
I'm not sure how you thought I was saying "If you are Town you would I am Town".
The point I was getting across is that if you were Town Guardman that you would see the Town motivation in what I did. But you solely focused on the Scum motivation and twisted what you saw to fit your view.
More to come later if I have the time.
Please explain why you need these exact questions answered before you can provide reads. These are my issues:
* Why would FIGHTING's read of iRebel influence yours?
* Why ask both me and Void a leading question? That implies your mind is already made up on the answer; otherwise you would ask those questions more openly.
To answer the @Rhand: If you get PR's to post their T/S'es and you guess correctly who the PR's are, you can pretty much guess their target at Night. It helps choosing who should perform the kill (i.e. who will not be tracked or jailed) and who should not be target for the kill (i.e. who will be doc'ed or watched).
Votecounts, as FIGHTING suggests, are not sufficient for that analysis: they help with deciding who needs to perform the kill, but not with deciding who is not a good NK target.
That does not imply that people asking for T/S lists are scum. T/S lists do have benefits for town as well, especially when you get a scum to post one.
So if more people than just Fighting suspect me enough to want my T/S, I do comply. Which seems to be the case, so I posted it.
But I don't see any town motivation in what you did.
Also you keep saying if I was town Guardman I would see this, but this predisposes:
1. You have a good grasp on my thought patterns as town versus my thought patterns as scum.
2. Understand how my mind works.
On one probably the only person I know who understands my thought patterns town versus scum is kpaca. On two I don't even know how my mind works (I just follow what it tells me).
So I highly doubt you know what I should be thinking on your actions when I am town.
Rhand is correct. It's a loaded question, but I will still answer.
[sarcasm]It's because I am his Scum buddy.[/sarcasm]
Seriously, though, I believe I read TK fairly well.
And this is where you screwed up, Guardman.
I hate quoting with a phone...
How is it possible to screw up what I see?
What I see is red is red.
Void your attacking me is creeping dangerously close to OMGUS levels. You are spending more time attacking me over not seeing your town mindset (and therefore I am scum because of it) then even attempting to continue the dialogue on why I am calling you scum.
"You like it, but..."? By "interested", do you mean that you still see him as scummier, or what? Your language here is vague.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The reason I ask for T/S lists from people when they replace in, especially people who are under pressure, is that it gives you excellent content to analyze in a standardized format. If they refuse, that's fine too, since you get to look at why they refused (or bully them until they comply, as happened here).
Once they post it, you get to look at their reasoning and placements. My impression of this list is favorable. He's not just sheeping the popular opinion (and, more telling, he both disagrees with me on some reads and put me as leaning scum, so he isn't letting the intimidation factor color his reads), isn't afraid to put null reads (but also doesn't have a lot of them), and has good reasoning and evidence for pretty much everything.
tl;dr, this is a townie's T/S list.
With that said,
unvote vote TK.
This reminds me that I forgot to do this: Shockwave, you're next for posting a T/S list.
-I'm able to read better when I'm participating in the conversation. Reading through and guessing intents based on responses to the questions posed by others isn't that easy for me.
-It wouldn't necessarily. But FIGHTING said she was going to and didn't. I wanted to be sure I hadn't missed it.
-I asked the questions the way I did to inspire introspection. I agree with how they are stated.
You're confident that TK is town, you've said that several times... so introducing that he'd be a better vig target than a lynch doesn't make sense.
If you personally are sold that he's town, why are you even suggesting that a vig would be a better idea? I understand that you say you're convinced and not everyone else is which is why you say that we don't know anything about his alignment - but we don't know anything about anyone's alignment by that standard. You think he's town - so why are you appealing to the idea of him being a better vig target than lynch at all? Why not just push your town read on him, say that he's a bad lynch and leave the vig aspect out of it altogether if you're that convinced? Furthermore, why would a vig on a null read be better than a lynch on a null read? The player is dead either way.
It doesn't jive to me. It reads like the mindset of someone who is trying to manufacture things that sound convincing to make the point stronger rather than just relying on the town read on the player.
Your full defense of TK in general is bad, in my opinion. I disagree that it's a more beneficial play for town than scum for reasons I've already stated, but it also doesn't make sense that if you think his play was such a good tact for scum hunting that you intervened when you did rather than letting it play out more. You also jumped in for him prior to him giving a full defense of himself. As town, I would think you'd want TK to explain in more detail his thought process even if you thought you already knew what it was.
_________________________________________________________________
@Guardman - I'm not sure why you're saying that the TK situation is entire WIFOM, because it isn't. He didn't derp and wasn't trying to be humorous - he said as much that he modeled his play after another player he saw do the same thing... and now he's saying that he did it for the town benefit of eliciting reads but that his other comments were simply to mess with FIGHTING because that's fun to do. So he's attempting to elicit reads through the WIFOM he's created but he's also simply messing with FIGHTING at the same time. It doesn't read as authentic to me and I see much more scum motivation in that action than town and do not buy that it's benign or null.
_________________________________________________________________
@Rhand - You have TK at the very bottom of your read list and Void at the very top despite Void saying that TK was being an expert scum hunter and reading him as town. You obviously disagree with Void's assessment since you're voting for TK. What are your views on Void's stance on TK and how does that fit with your town read on him?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
While what you are saying is correct about the TK situation after the fact, when people were voting and Void defending TK none of this was said. When these reactions were made everything was 100% WIFOM. I think we can look back at it better now based on what TK is saying, but that doesn't change the fact that there was nothing to look at when he did it.
Not true. Post #184. He didn't elaborate as much as he did later but he indicates that he was trying to get a read on Rhand and that he likes how Rhand responded.
It was clear at that point that he had done it intentionally and wasn't joking.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Either way, it's a conscious decision from a player under pressure to make a statement that creates WIFOM.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I disagree, to me it's still WIFOM because that still doesn't make sense from a town or a scum perspective. And their is not enough of any thing there to change that fact. When these things were made his actions make no sense for any alignment, therefore there is nothing to be analyzed/concluded from that as their is nothing town nor scum about it, hence the WIFOM.
I still feel that there is a lot of WIFOM with regards to TK and his "buddy" attempt. But there is at least more to process about thought process than something that makes no sense no matter how you look at it.[/font][/COLOR]
Firstly it creates the whole, "If TK were actually scum, would he do that?" WIFOM that Void has used as an argument for his actions being townie.
If he's scum and Rhand is town and he flips first, it implicates Rhand. If Rhand flips first, it makes TK look better because he reached the verdict that his responses were good so he's clearing a town player that was under scrutiny.
If they're scum together - which is what Fighting was alleging, it creates WIFOM around whether or not TK would really implicate both if they were both scum. If TK were to flip first, it will look like he was just trying to implicate Rhand. If Rhand flips first, TK can still say that he was using it as a ploy to get a read on Rhand. Also, if both are scum buddies, a play like this creates distractions with the reactions to him so if the two were being suspected already, this puts scrutiny on everyone else's reactions to his play which would be a good thing if he and his teammate were both under duress.
If there was already a loud case that he was Rhand's scumbuddy, which there was, and he was already starting to be suspected regularly, which he was, then making a play like this to confuse the situation and introduce WIFOM does make sense.
Agreed that it doesn't make sense as town. Rhand was already under scrutiny and there were plenty of ways to go about questioning him and other players without TK implicating himself.
It makes much more sense that he would try this as scum than town to me.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I think Void is just wrong in his read. That doesn't make him scum.
Sidenote: Looking for connections between players on Day 1 before we have bodies to work with is dangerous. The first lynch should be decided on one player's behavior and interactions analysed after the flip, not before.
My new favorite quote:
(Bender to Leila) 'I wouldn't be talking about taste if I were wearing a light green tanktop'
Next scene: Leila wears a white tanktop.
Ok, I guess?
On getting T/S lists from people who replace in: I'd prefer to get a better sense of the people that haven't really supplied as much of late but haven't replaced out - like rezombied and Idle Muse. Both have promised to include some content after catching up soon, but this game is moving somewhat slowly, so hopefully their content will come soon, not SoonTM.
---------------------
@Guardman: What is your actual stance on TK-421 right now? All I see you discussing about him is that his "Rhand's my buddy" events are WIFOM, but outside of this, what is your opinion of him overall?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
What's the town motivation behind trolling FIGHTING?
[CENTER]:banghead:The Walls!:banghead:[/CENTER]
[CENTER]:banghead:They don't end!:banghead:/CENTER]
...okay now that that is out of my system...
Alright, this is just a cursory read. Currently read through the finish of page eight, this list is very likely to have at least a few changes once I have finished catching up. These wall posts are slowing me down.
But anyways starting with my reads:
Town
FIGHTING: I must admit, I like the early pressure you put on Blue Electric to keep her accountable for her vote on Paperblade. And while clearly your main focus you were not blind to other questions to press.
DCIII: While I may not always agree with the conclusions, the lines of questioning posed by him felt like those of a town mindset. Note early question asking Blue Electric about why the jump from Void to Paperblade if both were voting the same thing. I would think scum would be of the mind to let an issue like that fester instead of going straight after it.
Lean Town
Blue Electric: I must admit two things stuck out at first about Blue. One was the line of questioning the Lynch arguement. While developments did help flesh out why, it really didn't sit well with me that the whole arguement was hanging on the fact that Paperblade was a gimmick. I wish someone had asked how strongly she felt about possibly knowing who the gimmick was. The other thing was the possible hand wave of the Void/Paperblade vote switch.
The reason I feel strong that Blue is possible town however is that I feel that wasn't her main intention to tunnel Paper, but to get a ton of reactions based on the arguement. Now we have a ton of motivation based info because of this. Only reason why Blue is not auto-town at this point is a) lingering vote based sentiments, and b) clear Mafia vet.
Void: Show early signs of looking for other scum options early in the Blue/Paper Lynch Voet arguement. Lines of questioning imply looking for connections in a few cases. Not a lot of independent scum hunting though, outside of iRebel.
Idle Muse: Slow start, but not bad reasoning behind his posts, especially post Blue out. I may not agree with his view on what position the out leaves us, but the reaction seems appropriate for someone with as town.
Rezombied: Early posts follow along pushing other people's questions and reveal low experience. First real personal thoughts come in post #43 with noting confusion with Blue Electric's vote reasoning. My thoughts say this is probably town that doesn't quite get what's going on. Presses questions after Suspecting Blue for clarification.
Null
Paperblade (before Rhand replacing in): I don't see Paper as scum based on what was posted, but content is poor mostly agreeing with other cases. Could have used more personal hunting, but hard to tell. Might have been intimidated by combo of wall post carpet bombs and scum-tell beat stick. Will continue reading for signal from Paper or Rhand post replace.
Guardman: That Blue out. Couldn't have come at a more inoppertune time. That action clearly muddied some reads when it happened. Oddly enough though, I think it can play into our favor, watching who had hedged bets on Blue only to never return to them post out. Other that that moment, no clear motivations.
iRebel: Hard for me to get a read on. Because of low experience the back off post Blue outing could be either taken as scum not wanting to take out an experienced town!blue or simple new player not wanting to anger Blue now knowing real identity. I mean <redacted> is kind of the Nicol Bolas of mafia, not someone you ever want to face alone. Want this case to develope another day.
Cythare: Early posts are evasive in nature, but soon implies knowledge of Blue's identity. Pressures iRebel after what she feels is an evasive post. Could see slight antagonism (maybe playful in nature, maybe not) towards my slots previous controller.
Scum
TK-421: Comes off odd. Early discrediting to Void without clear intentions to persue him, the vote on Blue only to back of after outing, claims to understand players on site, yet uses self meta to implicate possible motivations of Blue. A lot of things don't add up.
Note: this is not final. Just what I would go off of if this was just to page eight... Which it isn't. But it isn't. Will probably take most of the rest of this day to finish up reads on all players, maybe even into tomorrow.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
The 'must admit' in both the read on Fighting and the read on Blue bother me:
He must admit that Fighting correctly attacks Blue AND he must admit that Blue was being scummy.
Nothing to pursue right now though: it is a possible connection and becomes important only when we have a flip of one of the two.
For always finding a reason to vote me.
Unvote, I need to stay objective, but I needed to get that out of my system.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Other games. (Slowing to a crawl, self state, ect., ect.) Dog wanting me to take it outside every half hour...
I'll just drop it, but I shouldn't let it affect the game. Sorry.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Overall I am not a fan.
He is still feeling the effects of Shockwave being dismantled and replaced with the very boring Superman The Ride at Six Flags Great America.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats