MTG Salvation

Quote from BlackVise

I believed his admission, but I wasn't convinced it meant he was town at first, which is exactly why I continued to press him. I don't see what the issue here is.

The issue is yo saying "Wheat had pretty much confirmed himself as town" vs. "but I wasn't convinced" – giving lip service to what the rest of us saw while acknowledging that you didn't. Cake & eat it too.


@G_M – BV is scum, that's about all I'm sure of atm. I don't like kaburi's "scum!ria is attempting to mislead the town into another mislynch" blanket, it's a great way to dismiss my participation without supporting the accusation with evidence or analysis of my back & forth with BV. I also think I see where Teia is coming from with regards to you, & I'd like a chance to look at what you were doing in MM6 compared to here, since I was busy flipping out at Carsten & arguing with Teia to pay any attention to you there.

Ok, well when someone has points I can address other than "you are scummy" let me know

so you think Void intentionally made a bad bus case on Teia to kick off Day 2?

Quote from BlackVise

Quote from Gerrard"s Mom

BV - I summed up my thoughts on ria, have you formulated any more of a case on him? Also, have you been scum in any game other than the last MM?

RE: ria - He's been trying too hard to misconstrue everything I say as scummy, and I'm not happy about his claim (I'll explain that below).

RE: Past scum games - No, the last MM was my only scum game to date.

In response to you, ria - Wheat had near enough confirmed himself as town. The consensus seemed to be that he was town, that has no relation to my suspicion of him at the time. You're really reaching here.

I think we're looking at a Teia/ria scum team. Teia's attempt to dispute GM's claim on the basis of the random nature (something which is completely supported both by Mafia gameplay and by the Pokémon flavor) was absolutely baseless and weak. She's done little actual scum hunting and her whole case on me today was down to her misinterpreting my move.

Yesterday she listed ria as confirmed town in her vote analysis (779) and suggests a scum team of Void/KK/BV, then in 803 mysteriously changes her scum team to GM/ria. That's quite a big change and very suddenly.

To top it off, her claim and ria's are both linked. She's apparently vanilla and ria can apparently prove it - they're both totally reliant on the other, which to me is just too convenient.

Wait, what?

I can't see the whole Void/Teia interaction as being Void bussing his buddy only for it to backfire on him because of his screwup regarding his claim, and I don't buy that he made an intentionally bad case to score her points. That does not compute; it's beyond wifom and into Aliens Guy conspiracy land.

Hell, if we're going that route, I may as well say you're intentionally making a bad case on Teia right now so that scum!GM can bus you and score town points.

Quote from BlackVise

Yesterday she listed ria as confirmed town in her vote analysis (779) and suggests a scum team of Void/KK/BV, then in 803 mysteriously changes her scum team to GM/ria. That's quite a big change and very suddenly.

Already explained that. I figured that KK flipping town would mean +scum for ria, but that was more a gut thing than anything else. I admit, it was hasty, and wasn't really borne out over time, so my bad there. I am, however, confident in my scum reads of you and GM, especially after today's events so far.

To top it off, her claim and ria's are both linked. She's apparently vanilla and ria can apparently prove it - they're both totally reliant on the other, which to me is just too convenient.

ria's claim relies on me not being able to target anyone. My claim doesn't rely on anything of ria's. How does a VT claim rely on a perma-tracker, exactly?

v/la until Sunday, Sept 15

The extended family is getting together at my grandmother's lake house Saturday and going fishing; no internet and spotty cell coverage at best.

Quote from kaburi

v/la until Sunday, Sept 15

Ok

Deadline is still 11:59 on the 16th!

Activity is... kinda bad right now. Surely we can manage more than two posts a day?

At least we still have an available extension if we need it, right?

I'll second that request, per the extension rules.

/birthday weekend

*chinscratch*

Due to the multiple V/LAs, I'm willing to grant an extension.

However, unless actively dramatically picks up, don't expect a second.

Extension A has been used. The deadline is extended by 5 days.

The deadline is now 11:59PM on September 21st

I'm going to look at BV's other scum game tomorrow and see if anything similar is going on.

that wasn't super conclusive, but these are the scum behaviors BV exhibited:
-cheap shot at Tom for OOG thing
-excessive barning
-handwaving cases against himself

I think the voting is the biggest similarity, with his attempts this game to keep a wagon on KK after RVS, then following Jay and Wheat onto Iso, then abruptly switching to Wheat along with Void and staying there. I noticed a lot of wishy-washy attitude towards town in MM7, where he would refuse to commit to a strong vote on town that were under suspicion since he knew it would look bad later. This could be what happened with the hansanator mislynch.

Got to go to dinner, but I saw enough that was consistent with my scum read of BV that I am willing to vote him now.

I'll also note that I won't really be able to participate on Saturday, so I'll be voting by Friday.

BV, please respond to Moms/kaburi/Teia's posts above.

So the good news is I didn't miss anything while I was V/LA.

But the bad news is nobody is posting.



Deadline is not far from now!

Too many unanswered questions, too many scummy behaviors. 859 clinched it for me with BV, and I'm ready to vote BV right now.

In fact, vote: BV.

I'm waiting for BV to respond to points raised against him, or for someone to argue for a different lynch. I've reread this game and MM7 today while everyone else is idling out. Teia has thrown me some grief but not backed it up with anything that I can reasonably respond to. This is exactly how the town has lost pretty much every other MM game, it gets to endgame and nobody on the town cares enough to really think over the options and make the right choice.

Quote from Gerrard"s Mom

Teia has thrown me some grief but not backed it up with anything that I can reasonably respond to.

How about elaborating on that kaburi case that I argued seemed largely fabricated?

Quote from BlackVise

It's entirely possible and plausible - distancing is certainly a thing, especially if you can be relatively sure that that distancing won't result in either you or your scum buddy being lynched.

So you're saying that Void intentionally threw himself under the bus with godawful arguments and a terrible fakeclaim in order to distance himself from me. How is that more likely than Void simply picking me as a target and ****ing up horribly?

A VT claim doesn't rely on a perma-tracker, and I did somewhat poorly word that, so I apologize. My point was that both your claims greatly benefit each other, and the closest either of you have to proving your claim is what the other is saying - i.e. ria's claim is somewhat dependent on you saying you've done nothing each Night, and yours can only be 'proved' by him saying you've done nothing.

I don't give a Rattata's ass about ria's claim "proving" mine. You're trying too hard to draw a link where none exists. Claim that scum!ria picked a likely VT to base a fakeclaim on if that's what pleases you, but what's tripping my scumdar is the attempt to force a scum read on me with highly specious reasoning.

I'm down to lynch BV whenever people are ready. kaburi already threw a vote on him, which I'd normally be annoyed with, but given activity levels, it's probably for the best. Ideally this shouldn't be for another few days, though, so we can maximize available content for day five.

To your last point, BV, fair, I looked back. MM7 you were scum and I was town, MM6 I was scum and you were town, MM5 I guess we were both town. Your mislynch was the endgame win for scum in MM5, and I believe you were the second-to-last mislynch in MM6 (before the town implosion). Lastly, we have MM7 where you were kind of a persistent scum candidate but (likely because of the meta from the previous 2 games) never got lynched, when you were actually scum.
I agree that your "mildly scummy" meta would be a bad argument by itself to lynch you here, which is why I was searching for specific tells in that game that you might have repeated here, and I thought the poorly explained wagon-hopping and attempt to push an implausible case towards in game fit the bill.

I'm willing to look at other options for today's lynch if anyone has them, but we only have a couple of days left to look at stuff.

Preview edit: I'll try to articulate my points on kaburi soon then, Teia.

Where's the discussion of how BV's role hoses the two information roles?

vote:BlackVise

Well ok then I guess we can save some work

Vote BlackVise

hi thats

a lynch

scene when i am
....... sobr

Drunk on a weekday. I think I figured out who the last scum is. . .

Day 4 Final Vote

BlackVise (3): kaburi, rianalnn, Gerrard's Mom

---

The day came to a close, and Noland came back onto the Factory floor.

"Have you made your choice?"

The Pokémon scuttled about reluctant to choose another victim, but eventually pushed BlackVise to the front of the group.

"Very well, let's see what we've got to work with," Noland said as he once again grabbed a Pokéball from one of the many crates lying around. He tossed the ball, releasing a particularly regal Arcanine.

"Arcanine, use Fire Blast!" As usual, the Pokémon indulged him, and BlackVise was swiftly burnt to a crisp.

"I hope you all were right," said Noland, "since this really was your last chance."

He flipped open the Pokédex and scanned BlackVise's knocked out form.
"Oh... oh no."

Noland stepped back, fearful for his safety. The Pokémon had failed, and the evildoers had triumphed.

Suddenly, Gerrard's Mom, Garchomp reared up to his full height and let out a roar. He let out a great burst of energy and took down Teia Rabishu, Sceptile with a single blow. Not to be outdone, rianalnn, Tyranitar bellowed and rushed at kaburi, Mismagius, dropping the Ghost with a well-aimed Stone Edge.

Noland turned and began to run, but was blocked by Gerrard's Mom's Sandstorm attack. He was trapped, with nowhere to run.

"What do you want with me? You're just Pokémon! What could you possibly be doing?"

"Haven't you learned by now, Noland," said mysterious voice, "that when it comes to things like this there's always more than meets the eye?"

"What—who said that?" Noland turned back and squinted through the swirling sand, scanning for owner of the voice. "Show yourself!"

Gradually the sandstorm subsided, and a diminutive figure became visible. Flanked by the imposing Garchomp and Tyranitar, however, even Noland could not deny the gravitas of the moment.

"Don't you recognize me, Noland?" said the child, for it was indeed a child standing before him (or at least, a young adult), "think hard, old man!"

"Th... Thorton? Isn't this sort of deus ex machina unfair?" Noland was affronted by the fact that this secondary character was not mentioned even once so far during the game. "What do you want with the Factory?"

"Well, of course, my aim from the beginning was always to take control of it," said Thorton, "I couldn't stand by and do nothing while that a buffoon like yourself was in possession of this establishment."

"A buffoon!" Noland, now angered, darted forward to grab a Pokéball from the crates, but was stymied by Tyranitar's Earthquake, which raised the ground and knocked the Pokéballs out of his reach.

"Give it up, old man," said Thorton, "The Battle Factory is under new management. Now get out of my facility before I force you out."

"This isn't the last you've seen of me, kid," said Noland, "You may have won this battle, but watch your back."

The illustrious former Factory Head Noland stormed out of the Factory floor for the final time, leaving it in the hands of the usurper Thorton.

---

Thorton and his agents have seized control of the Battle Factory.

The Battle Factory Mafia has ended with a Scum win.

Thanks everybody for playing! Full setup and spec chat links in the next post.

Setup commentary
Mod Mafia games, for those who don't know, have traditionally been basics (though a few nonbasic elements have shown up in the past, such as a neutral JOAT). After MM7, there was much interest in ramping up the complexity a bit, so I rose to the occasion and delivered this.

While the goal was to add complexity, at the same time I had to serve the needs of the (on the whole) fairly inexperienced Mod group, and as such the game is not very difficult. The roles are, generally, easy to understand, even if their use isn't immediately obvious.

For balance, I started with traditional "protective, investigative, offensive" Basic PR paradigm, which led to the 1-shot cop, bodyguard, and 1-shot vig. The other PRs were added in to taste. The double voter was a very powerful secondary offensive role (though one that had to work to use its power) as it doubles as a confirmable townie role (extremely useful in POE). It's unfortunate that the game went as it did and this role ended up lynched D1. Both Scolipede (BlackVise) and Mismagius (kaburi) were designed to counter the stronger-than-normal scum team. Scolipede is not terribly useful in most situations, but if it catches Tyranitar's ability in particular it actually can completely expose a scum member. Mismagius has more obvious applications, and as the legitimate town roles were 1-shot or keyed off of the Abilities rather than the Moves it had more of an upside than a downside.

As has (so far) been a theme with me, the game was low power and high analysis. In addition, the scum roles were easily able to be claimed as believable town roles. Jailer is somewhat cliche by now as being a scum role, and as we saw Gerrard's Mom did not claim his true role. Rianalnn's role was able to be truthfully claimed as a tracker, and with the exception of Scolipede there would be no way to know the difference. However, as there were two of each investigative, protective, and offensive roles, the town would need to figure out who could be trusted and (ideally) sort it out through behavior analysis.

The setup is a dramatically stripped down version of an old setup I made, which may resurface later (in case you couldn't tell, there's room for a sequel here), taking everything down to its barest elements.

There are some tidbits about the setup that may be of interest. First, the sprites are all from Pokémon Conquest, a spin-off game, which limited my choice of Pokémon. Second, the Pokémon I chose represent all 17 types among them, something I doubt would be noticed but that made me happy (and could very well have come up if there had been a mass claim and attentive players). Third, all of the Moves/Abilities are (as was noted) things that can actually exist in the games. Sometimes I picked obscure or unusual things, but everything was possible. There was some knowledge of the source material required to fully enjoy the game, which tripped Void up somewhat when he was claiming.

Credit for the formatting goes to CrustaceanCrusader, who works magic with [float] tags.

Chat Links
Spectator Chat
Scum Chat

MVPs
I don't like LVP awards, and there was no strong consensus for MVP for either side. If you would like to nominate people, please go ahead.

Can we give hans town LVP anyway? Because seriously.

Still, got 2/3 right, and that's better than I figured I'd get. If only I'd kept up the GM push instead of switching to BV like that, but hey, hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Also I think this is a perfect illustration of why you never, ever throw out a vote in Lylo before everyone's damn good and ready. BV might have been relatively locked in, but there was still a chance for the scum to slip up or focus to shift to one of them.

Worst part is that in my next game, people are going to point at this one feverishly as "zomg if Teia doesn't adhere to this meta then she's scum" or something.

This game set it in stone for me – I hate being scum, to the point that I'm just not going to play anymore.

KK facehumping me about participation got my townie ire up, though. I just don't do Day 1 with any gusto. Apologies for losing my cool, though.

Teia, I feel ya. You're a smart cookie, & I'd like to think had I been town, I would have given you the credit you deserve as a new player learning how to be a townie.

Quote from Teia Rabishu

Also I think this is a perfect illustration of why you never, ever throw out a vote in Lylo before everyone's damn good and ready. BV might have been relatively locked in, but there was still a chance for the scum to slip up or focus to shift to one of them.

Yeah, that's my bad. I think the lesson from this is never let town!kaburi get to the endgame, because I get impatient.

Overall this was a fun game--loved the flavor and the setup! Awesome job, Megs!

I take some solace in the fact that I didn't completely waste my move; this is the first time I've ever had a possible night action in a game (I was bulletproof in MM7 for those of you playing along at home).

I feel like I learned a lot from this game. Maybe next time I'll actually have useful contributions.

Finally, I owe everyone an apology for letting my RL issues bleed into the game too much; although, ragey-depressive was at least in character for Mismagius.

Quote from Teia Rabishu

Can we give hans town LVP anyway? Because seriously.

Still, got 2/3 right, and that's better than I figured I'd get. If only I'd kept up the GM push instead of switching to BV like that, but hey, hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Also I think this is a perfect illustration of why you never, ever throw out a vote in Lylo before everyone's damn good and ready. BV might have been relatively locked in, but there was still a chance for the scum to slip up or focus to shift to one of them.

Worst part is that in my next game, people are going to point at this one feverishly as "zomg if Teia doesn't adhere to this meta then she's scum" or something.

1. Oh yeah. Still unsure what that was about. Hans is probably not getting into my games in the future.
2. I think your town game has definitely improved significantly. I'm sure you're aware of my "foolproof teia meta tell" if you read the CCM flamingo chat... I don't think it applies anymore?
3. Yes, though I can definitely appreciate frustration at this stage of the game.
4. Don't make me retract point #2.

Quote from BlackVise

Well, I'm totally going to gloat about how I was right about ria at least.

Also, Teia, out of everyone I'm sure I deserve town LVP.

Oh, and Meg - thanks for running such an interesting and flavorful game! I enjoyed it.

Well hans deserves LVP if anybody does.
:thumbsup:, thanks. I had fun with it, glad you did too!

Quote from kaburi

Quote from Teia Rabishu

Also I think this is a perfect illustration of why you never, ever throw out a vote in Lylo before everyone's damn good and ready. BV might have been relatively locked in, but there was still a chance for the scum to slip up or focus to shift to one of them.

Yeah, that's my bad. I think the lesson from this is never let town!kaburi get to the endgame, because I get impatient.

Overall this was a fun game--loved the flavor and the setup! Awesome job, Megs!

I take some solace in the fact that I didn't completely waste my move; this is the first time I've ever had a possible night action in a game (I was bulletproof in MM7 for those of you playing along at home).

I feel like I learned a lot from this game. Maybe next time I'll actually have useful contributions.

Finally, I owe everyone an apology for letting my RL issues bleed into the game too much; although, ragey-depressive was at least in character for Mismagius.

Patience is hard to have when a game is stalling out like we were here. See also: MM5.

to you too!

I think your contributions were fine this game, though they were still fairly clearly a new player's contributions. Play more, learn more, get better. That's what we always say.

Congrats, scum!

I was right that it was either KK-BV or ria-GM, so at least there's that.

BTW if someone makes too many mistakes they aren't scum. That's what I realized this game.

Scum will keep themselves from making too many mistakes, see.

Oh, and thanks to our nonmod participants! While mods do enjoy a game of mafia, there just aren't that many of us them around to fill a game.

Also, zero replacements!


edit: I came up with a better title.

edit 2: The Night actions were generally uninteresting, but the N1 actions had one funny moment. Iso, the cop, targeted Gerrard's Mom and would have gotten a scum result. However, BV did actually snatch that ability and learned... that Iso was town! It would have been funny (and fixed Wheat's read) if Wheat hadn't taken matters into his own hands that Night as well...

Meet the new modfia, same as the old modfia. Always with the dragging disappointment of an endgame

Quote from Teia Rabishu

Worst part is that in my next game, people are going to point at this one feverishly as "zomg if Teia doesn't adhere to this meta then she's scum" or something.

I doubt it, after this game I'm going to be much more careful of how I read you.

Quote from ria »

KK facehumping me about participation got my townie ire up, though. I just don't do Day 1 with any gusto. Apologies for losing my cool, though.

You're not the first person I've gotten on the nerves of, and you won't be the last if I can't change my attitude to something that doesn't beg to get mislynched. No hard feelings from me, and I'm sorry for getting you worked up too.

Quote from Meg »

Oh, and thanks to our nonmod participants!

You're welcome

---

Nobody noticed that, in addition to whatever tying Wheat was talking about, GM re-tied himself to ria with his lynch of me (wish I'd noticed this in the few hours I had before Meg ended the day, it could have really helped). GM lynched me "accidentally" right after I decided I need to reread ria to make sure my scum read was justified but before I had finished the reread (or started for that matter, stupid school). So the only thing lynching me at that moment accomplished was ending the day with as little heat on ria as possible.

Teia at least looked for this, but I think she was unsuccessful because she'd already decided ria was town, though I'll never understand why she still believed this after my flip.

Unlike me, mom tries harder as scum.

And yeah, KK, I'm not sure what it is that makes you so easy to mislynch but... like, it's kind of ridiculous at this point.

It's to your credit (or perhaps my detriment?) that I don't know what it is exactly and opt instead to just shoot you when that scenario arrives.

My guess at this point is that its my aggressive, and sometimes over-aggressive attitude making people view me in a negative light, and then subconsciously making the bridge between disliking my posts and finding them scummy.

And the times you've been scum while I've been town were all clan flamingo mafia games, where people are used to me and I'm more often read as town correctly. Plus everyone else in the clan is so inexperienced, it makes sense I get nked in that scenario.

Quote from KoolKoal

Teia at least looked for this, but I think she was unsuccessful because she'd already decided ria was town, though I'll never understand why she still believed this after my flip.

Too much weight put on the claim "checking out," really, combined with not taking a step back and realizing that I was pushing BV too hard until it was too late and there was too much momentum on him (at which point I decided **** it, ride it out). Not exactly the greatest of reasoning, but it's a lesson to learn.

Being aggressive always works for me.

I need honest feedback. What can I do going forward to improve my play? I still feel like I don't pull my weight.

Quote from kaburi

I need honest feedback. What can I do going forward to improve my play? I still feel like I don't pull my weight.

Besides, of course, "don't lose your temper and don't get impatient."

Quote from KoolKoal

My guess at this point is that its my aggressive, and sometimes over-aggressive attitude making people view me in a negative light, and then subconsciously making the bridge between disliking my posts and finding them scummy.

And the times you've been scum while I've been town were all clan flamingo mafia games, where people are used to me and I'm more often read as town correctly. Plus everyone else in the clan is so inexperienced, it makes sense I get nked in that scenario.

Once you buddied up to my horrible case on Teia you were going to look bad once I flipped. Let's not forget this one, now.

Quote from kaburi

Quote from kaburi

I need honest feedback. What can I do going forward to improve my play? I still feel like I don't pull my weight.

Besides, of course, "don't lose your temper and don't get impatient."

The biggest part of the game is constantly reading everything. Whenever someone reveals a Role, ability, alignment or anything game related it is a good idea to go back and check and see if what is being claimed is true.

In WWE Mafia, Voxxicus, Town Jailer, ran a gambit that outed a Scum member claiming Jailer. The gambit ended with Voxxicus claiming Bulletproof. Later on in that game, IIRC, fadeblue and Taredas (maybe one or two more) didn't believe Voxxicus' claim of Bulletproof because of how he handled the gambit. The Scum team eventually Role Cops/Tracks Voxxicus and finds out that the is a Jailer. fadeblue and Tardeas (other maybe) all agreed that the Jailer claim made more sense.

Also, just reading completed games and remembering how Scum were caught or how Scum interacted to win is good as well. The more you remember the more you will improve your game. Best of luck in your next game, kaburi!

Quote from Void

Once you buddied up to my horrible case on Teia you were going to look bad once I flipped. Let's not forget this one, now.

Well yeah, but that was just this game and I'm talking about a problem from multiple games :p.

Quote from KoolKoal

Quote from Void

Once you buddied up to my horrible case on Teia you were going to look bad once I flipped. Let's not forget this one, now.

Well yeah, but that was just this game and I'm talking about a problem from multiple games :p.

Give me specifics from the games you are talking about and the game titles. Maybe I could find something that will help you out.

It simply could be your aggressiveness that is getting you in trouble.

What were your thoughts when you latched onto my case?

For what it's worth, I didn't actually realize I was hammering KK at that point, that wasn't a lie.
Not sure what else to say, as pretty much always happens in MM the scum just rode it out to LYLO and then preyed upon the laziness and inexperience of the town to seal the deal.
Jay's play was fantastic for a first-timer, which was unfortunate given that he was a fairly important role. The vig shot was pretty crippling to the town, would have been nice if Wheat could have waited but coming under pressure early on put him in a bad situation.
I wonder if I could have gotten by without bussing Void, but I had to call the bad case when I saw it. I didn't quite get the chance to nix that plan in scum chat, iirc Void mentioned something about going after her.

Unfortunately, the best example is Mod Mafia 7, which I can't show you, or even see anymore, where I got lynched for defending a bad member of the town.

My thoughts when I agreed with your case are pretty much in the thread, I try to be an open book as town. It might have worked out differently if I had thought to give all the reasons I was on your side immediately, but perhaps not.

So, before reading spec chat, Im guessing that Iso read GM as scum due to the awkward "whoa nath attack" post?

Edit: Derp, just got to the point where he explained it. Too bad he was off'd N1.

Wow...

So for the longest time I thought that LnGrrrR's avatar was a dude wearing a cape standing on a rock resting a sword over his shoulder.

Only just now do I see that it's..... Spyro the Dragon.

:|

I've never even seen his avatar since I'm always focused on trying to spell his name right.

@TMCT, appreciated! You could just call me Grrrr

@Meg, this same topic was brought up in Club Flamingo as well. It seems like mistaking my avatar is a common thing.

Sadly "grrrrrr" already means something in my mental dictionary, so that's out.

Darn. It's a shame the town lost; nonetheless, I thought that the mafia played a pretty strong game at the beginning--I haven't really followed this game for a while--and I think they deserved the win.