EBWODP since it's not clear: By "not lose a townie overnight" I mean we have information we'd normally have by day 3 (i.e. knowledge that Void is scum) without actually being on day 3 and thus having lost a townie to the nightkill.
Void - Confirmed Scum
22 and 25 - Defends KoolKoal from Wheat_Grinder
160 - His Mega-Post. Votes for Wheat_Grinder, calls out Iso, Wheat, Teia. Asks seriously whether Hans or GM should go first.
181 - A Teia Spotlight (Attempt to cast suspicion by implying evasion), a declaration that KK is town, supports KK point on the Hans train, then does minor ‘questioning’ of Iso, Wheat and Iso.
197 - One of many Teia spotlights
225 - Void and KoolKoal, buddies4life (Soft questions, soft answers)
355 - Pre-Hans Hammer, he puts forth that Wheat is our scummiest player, responds to BM and Ria, talks about Teia’s meta
401 - A huge ‘case’ against Teia, votes Teia
407 - Huge argument with Teia
410 - Agrees with KoolKoal’s Arguments, Talks up Teia as a Scumspect
417 - Votes for GM, finds Teia and GM ‘Scummy’, supports KK’s arguments
422-423 - Weak Defense against GM’s case
428-429 - Void is ‘convinced’ that is Teia or GM flip scum, the other will too.
433 - A major ‘case’ for Teia and GM to be scum.
The rest of his posts were simply his steps to implosion and eventual confession. My current reads based on a re-read of Void:
Town:
Wheat_Grinder
Leaning Town:
GM, Teia
Neutral
Everyone not listed
Leaning Scum
KoolKoal
Scum:
Void
@KoolKoal - It's claimin' time!
@Everyone else, I'll be re-scrutinizing KK's posts in light of the new developments soon (hopefully today), but I think we're looking at Void/KK/? Scumteam.
181 - A Teia Spotlight (Attempt to cast suspicion by implying evasion), a declaration that KK is town, supports KK point on the Hans train, then does minor ‘questioning’ of Iso, Wheat and Iso.
Jay and kaburi: I'm not claiming until toMorrow. The reason for this is that the only way it hurts me if I'm scum is if I'm going to make a bad false-claim like Void did, but as I'm one of the people who called him on the false-claim, I'm obviously aware of how to claim successfully already. But if I'm town, my claim gives the scum team free information to make their night kill decision with.
RobRoy, a MiseTings veteran, references it in February. Gandan doesn't ken, so RobRoy explains where the term comes from & how it applies to these games. Serendipitously, we see Void posting immediately before RR explains the term, then a few minutes afterwards. I'm skimming this game right now & to be fair, Void's posting looks a lot like this game. Megs calls him out for repeatedly doing things like the BV/Moms. Sticking this here for when I run out of things to do.
where I acknowledge that Void's posting there matches what you were saying, & I save that link so I can keep reading into his games so I'm not working with a sample size of 2.
Ah, I missed that as I thought it was all about medium-sized examples and unrelated.
Consider the conflict of interest in *you* putting this forward – 'player A (you) would almost never begin a bus wagon on player C (Void or Wheat)'. Somehow this self-serving rubbish is supposed to convince me Teia's behaviour is scummy.
Tell me more about how I asked you to tell me why my argument was WIFOM and you face-hump that its WIFOM instead of going into why (maybe with examples of when it makes sense for a townie to join a wagon began by their biggest scumspect?). I didn't answer because your post was so bad, and there were more important things happening when I logged on again.
As for that other post I haven't responded to: Please explain to me how this answers my accusation in any way: you make a case on me that consists of repeating what other people have said after I've accused you of not making a case on me when it mattered, active-lurking in fact, and joining my wagon in a scummy way before making a case.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Am I the only one who thinks there is still no point in having KK claim since we know we are lynching Void? What are we trying to do, force him to confirm his role?
Exactly. Is it any surprise KK is in hurry to go to night?
Yes, asking Teia to go into more depth on what she wants to talk about is pushing to hurry to night :rolleyes:.
I'm pushing to start the conversations, which actually gives us more time to talk. Plus I'm remembering our latest club flamingo game, where someone was confirmed scum and then people said "alright free discussion time!" then proceeded to do nothing for 3 days or so until someone hammered.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Am I the only one who thinks there is still no point in having KK claim since we know we are lynching Void? What are we trying to do, force him to confirm his role?
Am I the only one who thinks there is still no point in having KK claim since we know we are lynching Void? What are we trying to do, force him to confirm his role?
I think we should, yes. I am certain that toMorrow lynching KK is what I am going to do, so let's have a claim now that we can test.
Jay and kaburi: I'm not claiming until toMorrow. The reason for this is that the only way it hurts me if I'm scum is if I'm going to make a bad false-claim like Void did, but as I'm one of the people who called him on the false-claim, I'm obviously aware of how to claim successfully already. But if I'm town, my claim gives the scum team free information to make their night kill decision with.
Reasonable.
Does anyone else with more experience have anything to say about this?
Void confessing has caused us a couple problems. First, it's unlikely that we will get any real momentum behind another lynch toDay because of it, so no one will really have any motivation to do so.
Second, re-reading Void's breakdown today has caused me to realize that it's entirely possible that he was a sacrificial lamb. I'll be mulling that one over, too.
Third, 'Last' Scum Team member? As in we'd already found the second one in KK? Too obvious a slip. As is the 'him'.
In either case, I'm thinking the third team member (if KK is indeed scum, which most of us suspect), is going to be someone more quiet than the others, like Ria (but not necessarily Ria).
Am I the only one who thinks there is still no point in having KK claim since we know we are lynching Void? What are we trying to do, force him to confirm his role?
I think we should, yes. I am certain that toMorrow lynching KK is what I am going to do, so let's have a claim now that we can test.
Am I the only one who thinks there is still no point in having KK claim since we know we are lynching Void? What are we trying to do, force him to confirm his role?
I think we should, yes. I am certain that toMorrow lynching KK is what I am going to do, so let's have a claim now that we can test.
Jay and kaburi: I'm not claiming until toMorrow. The reason for this is that the only way it hurts me if I'm scum is if I'm going to make a bad false-claim like Void did, but as I'm one of the people who called him on the false-claim, I'm obviously aware of how to claim successfully already. But if I'm town, my claim gives the scum team free information to make their night kill decision with.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
The way I see it is that if you don't claim toDay and are town, scum have less info, fine. But they also know you didn't want to claim and thus will NK you for having a role that wants to stay secret. And that's great; it benefits the town because we know to look elsewhere. If you are scum, then it benefits scum.
If you do claim toDay, we get to see that your claim is tested because you are locked to that claim. If town, that can help clear you (or have scum NK you, but with the opportunity for an information role (if we still have one since Iso was the Cop) to possibly find the real scum). If scum, it'll become even more obvious.
So I think it's ultimately better for you to claim toDay.
You disagree with my explanation for why I shouldn't claim?
I don't mind that you're pushing for it before the logic is explained to you, since you're new, but why do you still push now?
You know, if you really want to get me on tilt, keep talking down to me because I'm not a veteran of the mafia forum. I'm really getting sick of the attitudes around here.:flame:
I'll be glad tell you my reason, but you'll just continue to say I don't ever have original thoughts because my reasoning is the same as wheat's. Now that we have one confirmed scum, I want to see a claim out of you so we have something testable.
The way you're being so stubborn about this, combined with 544 (which I already commented on in 551), sounds to me like you're trying to say you don't want to out yourself as a PR. Back in 551, I said I didn't care if you claimed or not. Since then, based on your behavior, I've changed my mind. I think you're acting super scummy, and I do want that claim so we can see if it pans out.
EWP: GODDAMMIT, nathed while posting AGAIN.:facepalm:
Whatever, I think I'm outvoted on this, but I fail to see how you can force KK to claim today, unless you just want to straight up lynch him and leave the confirmed scum alive. I think Jay's post is the first time I have ever seen confirmed living scum described as a problem for the town.
The way I see it is that if you don't claim toDay and are town, scum have less info, fine. But they also know you didn't want to claim and thus will NK you for having a role that wants to stay secret. And that's great; it benefits the town because we know to look elsewhere. If you are scum, then it benefits scum.
If you do claim toDay, we get to see that your claim is tested because you are locked to that claim. If town, that can help clear you (or have scum NK you, but with the opportunity for an information role (if we still have one since Iso was the Cop) to possibly find the real scum). If scum, it'll become even more obvious.
So I think it's ultimately better for you to claim toDay.
I'm going to have to agree here. You are the most likely candidate for a Lynch tomorrow. If you die toNight because of what you reveal, you'll have saved us a mislynch tomorrow.
I think Jay's post is the first time I have ever seen confirmed living scum described as a problem for the town.
An obvious scum reveal is. I mean, it's clearly good that we have a real target, but at the same time it presents some challenges, and a more experienced player making a simple mistake like that confuses me.
Do stupid mistakes frequently reveal experienced players?
You disagree with my explanation for why I shouldn't claim?
I don't mind that you're pushing for it before the logic is explained to you, since you're new, but why do you still push now?
You know, if you really want to get me on tilt, keep talking down to me because I'm not a veteran of the mafia forum. I'm really getting sick of the attitudes around here.:flame:
I wasn't talking down to you. I was really asking if my explanation wasn't good enough for you and why.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
GM
You want me to name my last scum member, huh? Good luck finding him. You never will.
There's really no way to make a good read of this, so I'm just going to treat it as null rather than engaging in the WIFOM of "what's the confirmed scum mean here?"
GM
You want me to name my last scum member, huh? Good luck finding him. You never will.
There's really no way to make a good read of this, so I'm just going to treat it as null rather than engaging in the WIFOM of "what's the confirmed scum mean here?"
GM
You want me to name my last scum member, huh? Good luck finding him. You never will.
There's really no way to make a good read of this, so I'm just going to treat it as null rather than engaging in the WIFOM of "what's the confirmed scum mean here?"
Common buddy! You can do it!
Put down the cane, Horns***gle, we won't do your dirty work.
GM
You want me to name my last scum member, huh? Good luck finding him. You never will.
There's really no way to make a good read of this, so I'm just going to treat it as null rather than engaging in the WIFOM of "what's the confirmed scum mean here?"
Common buddy! You can do it!
Put down the cane, Horns***gle, we won't do your dirty work.
Going in the Sig once this game is done.
Thank for that, Wheaties! I'm still laughing hard.
Not what I said. Forgive me for taking note of what I had just read. I wasn't trying to shatter your meta call with a sample size of 1.
Rightfully, I correct you. I was investigating your claim. I did not dismiss your claim after reading 1 game; this is supported by the fact that I kept looking into Void's prior games.
"with a sample size of 1." I continued to read Void's games.
If anyone else thinks this me "clearly" saying I'm not investigating KK's meta read, raise your hand.
I underline the difference between saying 'I wasn't trying to shatter your meta call' & 'I wasn't trying to shatter your meta call with 1 game'. Now you say
Here you clearly say you weren't going after my meta read of Void,
I didn't change anything. I quoted you directly.
You don't say "you clearly said you hadn't proved me wrong"
You _do_ say "you clearly say you weren't going after my meta read".
The bottom line is you were WRONG. Void IS scum. What motivation does a townie have to continue harping on a point that has been shown to be a fallacy?
Ah, I missed that as I thought it was all about medium-sized examples and unrelated.
This again demonstrates that you're not actually reading my posts. How can you claim anything about my contributions toDay if you aren't reading my posts? & so you nod at this post now, but it doesn't factor into what you're trying to sling at me because it contradicts what you're claiming.
This exchange is you blowing static into the thread trying to waste my time with garbage argumentation rather than utilize this time to read back over the thread & generate some actual analysis that has some bearing on the game. Unfortunately for you, my all-day class was cancelled & I have no commitments for the next 3 hours.
The bottom line is you were WRONG. Void IS scum. What motivation does a townie have to continue harping on a point that has been shown to be a fallacy?
...
This exchange is you blowing static into the thread trying to waste my time with garbage argumentation rather than utilize this time to read back over the thread & generate some actual analysis that has some bearing on the game. Unfortunately for you, my all-day class was cancelled & I have no commitments for the next 3 hours.
You were the person who brought this up again and continue to call me scum for it, and calling me scum for ignoring it, but now I'm scummy for talking about it?
How can you claim anything about my contributions toDay if you aren't reading my posts?
So because I missed the fact that you switched from one type of research to another mid-paragraph without making a note of it in the paragraph, I'm paying so little attention that my reads are all nulled?
And you never responded to where I called you out for poor argumentation:
Tell me more about how I asked you to tell me why my argument was WIFOM and you face-hump that its WIFOM instead of going into why (maybe with examples of when it makes sense for a townie to join a wagon began by their biggest scumspect?). I didn't answer because your post was so bad, and there were more important things happening when I logged on again.
As for that other post I haven't responded to: Please explain to me how this answers my accusation in any way: you make a case on me that consists of repeating what other people have said after I've accused you of not making a case on me when it mattered, active-lurking in fact, and joining my wagon in a scummy way before making a case.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I asked you to tell me why my argument was WIFOM and you face-hump that its WIFOM instead of going into why
I singled out you saying "Scum almost never" because it is a perfect example of a poisoned glass. I then further explain why, in this instance, it's particularly poisonous – you have a demonstrable investment in players drinking that wine;
'player A (you) would almost never begin a bus wagon on player C (Void or Wheat)'. Somehow this self-serving rubbish is supposed to convince me Teia's behaviour is scummy.
& you still fail to close the discussion – this whole exchange began because I asked you
Are you seriously suggesting that because player A calls player C scum, player B can't express suspicion of both player A & player C?
Somehow, rather than you supporting the position you put forward in the thread (why Teia is scummy for considering you are scum, looking at Wheat & considering he is scum – 'because WIFOM' not being an acceptable answer) now we have this;
(maybe with examples of when it makes sense for a townie to join a wagon began by their biggest scumspect?)
You want me to defend Teia's position, rather than you support yours. Ok, I'll bite.
Townies don't have perfect information, & if they don't keep an open mind about who is scum, they get torn apart. Lazy townies will look at the surface of these interactions & happily set aside anything that looks too hard. Maligning someone because they're demonstrating critical thinking takes some balls, hence my initial incredulous reply.
This isn't specifically an example of "Townie B jumps on scumread-A's wagon on scumread-C, but it supports what happens if townies don't remain flexible: Townie B sees player A acting scummy, & sees player C acting scummy, then dismisses that scummy behaviour because "scum would almost never", that Townie loses the game because Iso *did* shoot his scumbuddy despite that fact I had spectacularly failed to convince the other Townies that killjoy's atrociously scummy behaviour far outweighed any setup speculation argument. This incident being so fresh in my game history is why I am not eager to dismiss things because "scum would almost never".
I didn't answer because your post was so bad, and there were more important things happening when I logged on again.
My post was so bad. That's it. You're berating me for not showing my math & this is what you offer. Is this "Do As I Say, Not As I Do", or "It's Not Scummy When I Do It"?
As for that other post I haven't responded to: Please explain to me how this answers my accusation in any way: you make a case on me that consists of repeating what other people have said after I've accused you of not making a case on me when it mattered, active-lurking in fact, and joining my wagon in a scummy way before making a case.
Am I supposed to believe you actually read my post, & aren't just handwaving "repeating what other people have said"?
You call me out for not contributing, so I set out my notes for the middle of the day as succinctly as I can, & you tell me it's too late, so you don't have to respond.
You cry active lurking without supporting it (& if you say Day 1 again, I will reply Every Game Rin Has Played Ever, Do Your Homework).
You say I joined your wagon in a scummy way, again, not supporting it with any evidence.
My post was so bad. That's it. You're berating me for not showing my math & this is what you offer. Is this "Do As I Say, Not As I Do", or "It's Not Scummy When I Do It"?
I gave the reasons I thought your post was bad. Claiming I gave no reasons is a blatant lie.
You call me out for not contributing, so I set out my notes for the middle of the day as succinctly as I can, & you tell me it's too late, so you don't have to respond.
It is too late. You didn't express any interest in my wagon or hint at your opinions on me until the most opportune moment. Posting what you claim were your notes from will not fix that, you know we have no proof you took those notes in advance, you just look scummy for your choice to share nothing with the thread until after you'd made your opportunistic move.
I already did support it in an earlier post. I explicitly ask for your opinion on the me/Teia argument and you pass until later, but later doesn't come until you've had an opportunity to wagon hop and I (and GM) call you on it.
You say I joined your wagon in a scummy way, again, not supporting it with any evidence.
I also said why it was scummy, but you're pretending I didn't. You followed Wheat onto voting me the instant Void claimed with almost no reasoning after lurking on how you felt about me all Day.
And you never responded to where I called you out for poor argumentation:
Hence Part 1, bad-at-reading guy. I love this. I never respond. In the half-hour it takes me to respond to it, I never respond.
What is loaded language?
What is "I have no commitments for the next 3 hours"?
Keep reaching, KK.
Meanwhile, I am going back over the rest of the thread.
How dare I miss that you put a title on your post when you are the only player to even use that feature I've ever played with :rolleyes:. And I never called you scummy for not answering, just told you to address it, but you're happy to add whatever negative tone you can spin.
You can continue to attack me in such a scummy way all you want, I'll flip soon enough and people will be on to you.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
rrrrr hans continues to blank the thread & make people's read on him useless
& I think I know what he was going for with his mass claim & fake claim, & it's completely unsporting. Firing a PM to the mod, apologies if the game is borked.
Just looked into Deitriptychos & I think I misunderstood what was being said in this post, as Void was also scum that game.
KK, is this post you saying you agree with Void (ie; what Void has put in the thread), or that you agree with Iso's call that Void is scum?
I was agreeing with Iso that Void looked like his scum meta. Deitriptychos was a game I was playing in that Iso caught scum Void with Void's first post, Iso told us Void's scum meta, and was proved right by the flip, so its where I originally got the Void meta idea of lurky+passive vs. overly aggressive (though obviously the town half of the meta needs some looking into).
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
BV backtracks on his scum read of KK, chalking KK's "initial behaviour down to meta". BV also has Void listed as a null tell, somehow boxing wallposting-Void in with light-on Moms & prodded Arcadic for content level. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10513375&postcount=315
Teia analyzes Wheat's activity. Notably she doesn't include being 1-shot or his Pressure ability as reasons why the scum wouldn't NK Wheat. I don't think Teia is capable of playing dumb, & would expect scum Teia to lay out all the details compulsively. I took this to be a legitimate oversight. +t http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10536606&postcount=387
kaburi's weird NOT CALLING VOID SCUM post. What I didn't notice before was this: "I'm still not getting a scum read on Teia, and I'm not comfortable lynching her just yet." How often do you feel comfortable lynching someone you don't have a scum read on? +s http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10552541&postcount=411
KK posts his points against Teia. The timing here, where KK posts at Teia twice, then an hour passes, then this post, gives me a sense that KK has gone back to scrape the thread for points, not taken them from notes he already had. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10564135&postcount=446
KK says he always reads BV as scummy & wanted to be sure he had a strong case before voting; this caveat only comes out after Teia & I have pointed out BV fence sitting again & meanwhile KK has been feeling out the thread for a BV wagon since yesterDay http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10572913&postcount=502
Void flailing commences; I am immediately reminded of Pokémon Mafia the on Magic Lampoon forums (R.I.P. yo).
"Growl" was an unexplained move shared by several players including scum-aligned FunkyMonkeyMan; when FMM was forced to claim after a few Days, he posted the mafia version of Growl which revealed that if 5 players used it on the same target that player would be roleblocked, along with the text "other people have a version of Growl but do not get this explanation". Commence Grakthis facehumping FMM by macro spamflooding that quote while FMM flailed to explain why he never told the town what Growl did. We were just babies back then
2. BlackVise – Probably scum. Continues to be light-on & wishy-washy. I hate post 205.
3. Gerrard's Mom – Town for initiating the Void wagon.
6. Jay13x* – Town, posts like 120 are glaring town enthusiasm.
7. kaburi – Leaning scum. Post 411 is bad news.
8. KoolKoal – Brass-balled scum.
10. Teia Rabishu – Town. Void's push toDay seals the deal for me.
11. Void* – "other people have a version of Growl but do not get this explanation"
12. Wheat_Grinder – Town. Dig post 215 where he cuts to the chase & puts himself in the town's hands.
I want to go back over the wagons once more, but my eyes are bleeding so I'm calling it a night
Yeah, I didn't seriously mean to suggest we were going to lynch KK over Void, if that wasn't clear.
I'm ready to move on whenever, didn't really need any extra convincing that KK's barn of a bad case and subsequent flopping about to get off of it have put him in a bad position. I think we have a pretty good idea of everyone's reads, we can take whatever info we get from the Night and investigate our leads tomorrow.
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Asking a question he obviously hasn't put any effort towards answering for himself?
He's been pretty obvious the rest of the Day, why stop now?
22 and 25 - Defends KoolKoal from Wheat_Grinder
160 - His Mega-Post. Votes for Wheat_Grinder, calls out Iso, Wheat, Teia. Asks seriously whether Hans or GM should go first.
181 - A Teia Spotlight (Attempt to cast suspicion by implying evasion), a declaration that KK is town, supports KK point on the Hans train, then does minor ‘questioning’ of Iso, Wheat and Iso.
197 - One of many Teia spotlights
225 - Void and KoolKoal, buddies4life (Soft questions, soft answers)
355 - Pre-Hans Hammer, he puts forth that Wheat is our scummiest player, responds to BM and Ria, talks about Teia’s meta
401 - A huge ‘case’ against Teia, votes Teia
407 - Huge argument with Teia
410 - Agrees with KoolKoal’s Arguments, Talks up Teia as a Scumspect
417 - Votes for GM, finds Teia and GM ‘Scummy’, supports KK’s arguments
422-423 - Weak Defense against GM’s case
428-429 - Void is ‘convinced’ that is Teia or GM flip scum, the other will too.
433 - A major ‘case’ for Teia and GM to be scum.
The rest of his posts were simply his steps to implosion and eventual confession. My current reads based on a re-read of Void:
Town:
Wheat_Grinder
Leaning Town:
GM, Teia
Neutral
Everyone not listed
Leaning Scum
KoolKoal
Scum:
Void
@KoolKoal - It's claimin' time!
@Everyone else, I'll be re-scrutinizing KK's posts in light of the new developments soon (hopefully today), but I think we're looking at Void/KK/? Scumteam.
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Iso, Wheat and Kaburi, I meant.
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You're changing what I said. I said you you clearly said you hadn't proved me wrong, not that you aren't investigating.
Yet you say right here that you have proved it null:
Ah, I missed that as I thought it was all about medium-sized examples and unrelated.
No, you were being unclear, and still are. Why did you say you'd proved my read null, but that you didn't prove my read null?
Tell me more about how I asked you to tell me why my argument was WIFOM and you face-hump that its WIFOM instead of going into why (maybe with examples of when it makes sense for a townie to join a wagon began by their biggest scumspect?). I didn't answer because your post was so bad, and there were more important things happening when I logged on again.
As for that other post I haven't responded to: Please explain to me how this answers my accusation in any way: you make a case on me that consists of repeating what other people have said after I've accused you of not making a case on me when it mattered, active-lurking in fact, and joining my wagon in a scummy way before making a case.
I'm pushing to start the conversations, which actually gives us more time to talk. Plus I'm remembering our latest club flamingo game, where someone was confirmed scum and then people said "alright free discussion time!" then proceeded to do nothing for 3 days or so until someone hammered.
I lol'd hard!
GM
You want me to name my last scum member, huh? Good luck finding him. You never will.
No, KK agrees with you too.:rolleyes:
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I think we should, yes. I am certain that toMorrow lynching KK is what I am going to do, so let's have a claim now that we can test.
Last scum member...as in we've caught the second scum member?
KK definitely confirmed for scum.
Does anyone else with more experience have anything to say about this?
Void confessing has caused us a couple problems. First, it's unlikely that we will get any real momentum behind another lynch toDay because of it, so no one will really have any motivation to do so.
Second, re-reading Void's breakdown today has caused me to realize that it's entirely possible that he was a sacrificial lamb. I'll be mulling that one over, too.
Third, 'Last' Scum Team member? As in we'd already found the second one in KK? Too obvious a slip. As is the 'him'.
In either case, I'm thinking the third team member (if KK is indeed scum, which most of us suspect), is going to be someone more quiet than the others, like Ria (but not necessarily Ria).
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I really need to get better at reading what I'm writing before I post to avoid having to triple post in clarifications.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I don't mind that you're pushing for it before the logic is explained to you, since you're new, but why do you still push now?
I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but it made me laugh.
Pffftfff. Like you're any better.
Accepting WIFOM from confirmed scum at face-value is about as bad as it gets from an experienced player :p.
Ah, got it.
Accepting WIFOM from confirmed scum at face-value is about as bad as it gets from an experienced player :p.[/QUOTE]
If you say so.
Quote fail
Except I think I know how Void think-
oh god i'm doing it again stop me.
Anyway it was slightly tongue in cheek but I do really believe you're scum and am trying to figure out Void's goal with the WIFOM where I can.
And I do really believe you should claim toDay. If not, you had damn well better be able to prove it toMorrow or I'm not even going to consider it.
The way I see it is that if you don't claim toDay and are town, scum have less info, fine. But they also know you didn't want to claim and thus will NK you for having a role that wants to stay secret. And that's great; it benefits the town because we know to look elsewhere. If you are scum, then it benefits scum.
If you do claim toDay, we get to see that your claim is tested because you are locked to that claim. If town, that can help clear you (or have scum NK you, but with the opportunity for an information role (if we still have one since Iso was the Cop) to possibly find the real scum). If scum, it'll become even more obvious.
So I think it's ultimately better for you to claim toDay.
You know, if you really want to get me on tilt, keep talking down to me because I'm not a veteran of the mafia forum. I'm really getting sick of the attitudes around here.:flame:
I'll be glad tell you my reason, but you'll just continue to say I don't ever have original thoughts because my reasoning is the same as wheat's. Now that we have one confirmed scum, I want to see a claim out of you so we have something testable.
The way you're being so stubborn about this, combined with 544 (which I already commented on in 551), sounds to me like you're trying to say you don't want to out yourself as a PR. Back in 551, I said I didn't care if you claimed or not. Since then, based on your behavior, I've changed my mind. I think you're acting super scummy, and I do want that claim so we can see if it pans out.
EWP: GODDAMMIT, nathed while posting AGAIN.:facepalm:
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
I'm going to have to agree here. You are the most likely candidate for a Lynch tomorrow. If you die toNight because of what you reveal, you'll have saved us a mislynch tomorrow.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
An obvious scum reveal is. I mean, it's clearly good that we have a real target, but at the same time it presents some challenges, and a more experienced player making a simple mistake like that confuses me.
Do stupid mistakes frequently reveal experienced players?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Not always, but it does happen.
APPARENTLY NOT FOR ISO.
Which looked marvelously like scum knowing his buddy was screwed, thus the switch to backpedaling, distancing, and busing.
There's really no way to make a good read of this, so I'm just going to treat it as null rather than engaging in the WIFOM of "what's the confirmed scum mean here?"
Common buddy! You can do it!
Put down the cane, Horns***gle, we won't do your dirty work.
Thank for that, Wheaties! I'm still laughing hard.
Here I say the first game I look into of Void's (the one I am most familiar with, having been in it myself) does not agree with what you claim.Your response is to conflate that comment on 1 game into a comment on all meta.
Rightfully, I correct you. I was investigating your claim. I did not dismiss your claim after reading 1 game; this is supported by the fact that I kept looking into Void's prior games.
You cut off the important qualifier to support that I wasn't "going after" (which in my mind is another way of saying investigating) your claim.
I underline the difference between saying 'I wasn't trying to shatter your meta call' & 'I wasn't trying to shatter your meta call with 1 game'. Now you sayNope.I didn't change anything. I quoted you directly.
You don't say "you clearly said you hadn't proved me wrong"
You _do_ say "you clearly say you weren't going after my meta read".
The bottom line is you were WRONG. Void IS scum. What motivation does a townie have to continue harping on a point that has been shown to be a fallacy?
This again demonstrates that you're not actually reading my posts. How can you claim anything about my contributions toDay if you aren't reading my posts? & so you nod at this post now, but it doesn't factor into what you're trying to sling at me because it contradicts what you're claiming.
This exchange is you blowing static into the thread trying to waste my time with garbage argumentation rather than utilize this time to read back over the thread & generate some actual analysis that has some bearing on the game. Unfortunately for you, my all-day class was cancelled & I have no commitments for the next 3 hours.
So because I missed the fact that you switched from one type of research to another mid-paragraph without making a note of it in the paragraph, I'm paying so little attention that my reads are all nulled?
And you never responded to where I called you out for poor argumentation:
Townies don't have perfect information, & if they don't keep an open mind about who is scum, they get torn apart. Lazy townies will look at the surface of these interactions & happily set aside anything that looks too hard. Maligning someone because they're demonstrating critical thinking takes some balls, hence my initial incredulous reply.
This isn't specifically an example of "Townie B jumps on scumread-A's wagon on scumread-C, but it supports what happens if townies don't remain flexible: Townie B sees player A acting scummy, & sees player C acting scummy, then dismisses that scummy behaviour because "scum would almost never", that Townie loses the game because Iso *did* shoot his scumbuddy despite that fact I had spectacularly failed to convince the other Townies that killjoy's atrociously scummy behaviour far outweighed any setup speculation argument. This incident being so fresh in my game history is why I am not eager to dismiss things because "scum would almost never".
My post was so bad. That's it. You're berating me for not showing my math & this is what you offer. Is this "Do As I Say, Not As I Do", or "It's Not Scummy When I Do It"?
Am I supposed to believe you actually read my post, & aren't just handwaving "repeating what other people have said"?
You call me out for not contributing, so I set out my notes for the middle of the day as succinctly as I can, & you tell me it's too late, so you don't have to respond.
You cry active lurking without supporting it (& if you say Day 1 again, I will reply Every Game Rin Has Played Ever, Do Your Homework).
You say I joined your wagon in a scummy way, again, not supporting it with any evidence.
What is loaded language?
What is "I have no commitments for the next 3 hours"?
Keep reaching, KK.
Meanwhile, I am going back over the rest of the thread.
Alright, I can see by your explanation that my point was WIFOM.
I gave the reasons I thought your post was bad. Claiming I gave no reasons is a blatant lie.
It is too late. You didn't express any interest in my wagon or hint at your opinions on me until the most opportune moment. Posting what you claim were your notes from will not fix that, you know we have no proof you took those notes in advance, you just look scummy for your choice to share nothing with the thread until after you'd made your opportunistic move.
I already did support it in an earlier post. I explicitly ask for your opinion on the me/Teia argument and you pass until later, but later doesn't come until you've had an opportunity to wagon hop and I (and GM) call you on it.
I also said why it was scummy, but you're pretending I didn't. You followed Wheat onto voting me the instant Void claimed with almost no reasoning after lurking on how you felt about me all Day.
How dare I miss that you put a title on your post when you are the only player to even use that feature I've ever played with :rolleyes:. And I never called you scummy for not answering, just told you to address it, but you're happy to add whatever negative tone you can spin.
You can continue to attack me in such a scummy way all you want, I'll flip soon enough and people will be on to you.
The images in your role PMs have been deleted. I will be giving you new images to replace them
either tonight ortomorrow.My apologies for the oversight,
—meg
Up to post 215. Will continue & boil it down as I can.
Arcadic's second vote, on BV
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471221&postcount=15
KK declares RVS over based on Arcadic's vote (on hans)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471633&postcount=18
Void pressures Wheat (who is pressuring KK) +t to Wheat
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471793&postcount=22
KK waffles about why Arcadic would drop a serious vote, calls vote on BV bad, but cannot explain why Arcadic would drop the hans vs. RVS vote for a BV slip vote
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471863&postcount=27
KK barns Arcadic's vote on hans
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471885&postcount=28
KK apologizes for confusing hans w/ Jay, facehumps.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471963&postcount=30
Wheat breaks it down. +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10471972&postcount=31
KK waffles on usefulness of RVS tells
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10472172&postcount=36
KK squirms under Iso
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10472448&postcount=47
Void supports Iso's vote on GM without actually saying anything +t GM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10472780&postcount=53
kaburi pulls his random vote +t kaburi
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10472875&postcount=56
KK says he's reading Teia & Void as town, bases his town Void read on a single game
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10473659&postcount=71
Jay flavours up, tries to see Arcadic's town mindset +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10476533&postcount=95
Jay goes from translucent town to transparent town
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10484860&postcount=120
rrrrr hans continues to blank the thread & make people's read on him useless
& I think I know what he was going for with his mass claim & fake claim, & it's completely unsporting. Firing a PM to the mod, apologies if the game is borked.
Teia coaches hans on how to be effective when the scum play is to let him continue to play his "town game" (hans' words) +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10486066&postcount=132
GM is still pretending he's town in MM6 . . . you won dude, you can stop faking now
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10486757&postcount=140
Teia notes Iso's scummy behaviour but maintains her vote on hans. Scum Teia could have justified pushing Iso towards claim range rather than continue to work the amorphous blob +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10489853&postcount=156
Void starts off with a strong push on KK but quickly shifts to supporting KK's arguments, until the end when he puts a little distance in.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10490232&postcount=160
BV fleshes out his scum read on KK at Void's request. Void ignores this, & declares KK town in his next post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10490546&postcount=167
kaburi posts reads on everyone despite being V/LA +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10498217&postcount=196
BV refutes Iso's points but then ends saying his case falls apart because he likes Iso's push on Wheat, while leaving the door open to flop back on Iso if Wheat is town. +s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10500730&postcount=205
Wheat claims & states his intent. I didn't like him cutting the wagon short then, but in retrospect & given his follow-through, this shines as a pro-town action to me.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10502458&postcount=215
KK, is this post you saying you agree with Void (ie; what Void has put in the thread), or that you agree with Iso's call that Void is scum?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10502726&postcount=218
hans jokes about hacking the game through role speculation +probation
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10505274&postcount=238
BV calls KK's push on him OMGUS. This reads like some of the weakest scumbuddy distancing ever. +s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10507391&postcount=269
kaburi says he wants Wheat to hammer hans, calling Wheat the "next most dubious player". The progression from "IGMEOY" to 'why is he claiming?' to here is sus. +s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10510116&postcount=277
Wheat drops some analysis on Iso, feels like a sincere last request post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10510549&postcount=280
Moms comes back on with a good breakdown of the thread, although his read on Jay hinges on having missed the post where Jay explains himself.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10512851&postcount=311
BV backtracks on his scum read of KK, chalking KK's "initial behaviour down to meta". BV also has Void listed as a null tell, somehow boxing wallposting-Void in with light-on Moms & prodded Arcadic for content level.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10513375&postcount=315
Jay's 'loose lips sink ships' analysis here is great.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10514209&postcount=323
Moms asks Arcadic why he thinks Jay is vanilla. I don't like it, why is Moms trying to cut down trees? +s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10514386&postcount=326
BV explains what he meant with KK's meta, comparing it to Day 1 of MM7. I guess BV didn't recall that when he initially pushed on KK? MM7 strikes me as a good game to read over.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10516545&postcount=338
Day 2
Wheat's guilt here reads genuine
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10536253&postcount=379
Teia analyzes Wheat's activity. Notably she doesn't include being 1-shot or his Pressure ability as reasons why the scum wouldn't NK Wheat. I don't think Teia is capable of playing dumb, & would expect scum Teia to lay out all the details compulsively. I took this to be a legitimate oversight. +t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10536606&postcount=387
BV explains how he'd hoped to catch Wheat out on reads, but fails to press Wheat about his read on KK, which is qualified as 'If hans=scum / KK=town'
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10541150&postcount=395
KK's classic ":thumbsup Void" post. The arguments in that post get torn to pieces, & rightfully so.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10546526&postcount=402
kaburi says he is going to review & have a hard look at BV, but doesn't report back until I ask him to a few days later
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10537036&postcount=389
kaburi's weird NOT CALLING VOID SCUM post. What I didn't notice before was this: "I'm still not getting a scum read on Teia, and I'm not comfortable lynching her just yet." How often do you feel comfortable lynching someone you don't have a scum read on? +s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10552541&postcount=411
KK's lukewarm nod to setting forth a proper case on BV
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10554481&postcount=413
Moms starts the wagon on Void & brings up KK's behaviour towards Void as a reason they might be scumbuddies. +t & if KK flips scum, ++t
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10555290&postcount=416
Void hillariously misreads Moms' prior post & OMGUS
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10555455&postcount=417
KK pounces on Moms too. It is painful to read the way Void & KK are coordinating at the start of this Day.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10555635&postcount=418
Moms tears up Void's case
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10560515&postcount=434
Teia tears up Void's case. You can see TownTeia's paranoia peek through when she's talking about Jay.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10560626&postcount=436
KK sidesteps getting entangled in the reaming of Void's evidence by saying he "more likes that [Void] found some evidence". Then he tells Moms he will put his own words on Teia in a new post
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10562394&postcount=439
KK posts his points against Teia. The timing here, where KK posts at Teia twice, then an hour passes, then this post, gives me a sense that KK has gone back to scrape the thread for points, not taken them from notes he already had.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10564135&postcount=446
BV fence-sits on Wheat
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10569347&postcount=480
KK says he always reads BV as scummy & wanted to be sure he had a strong case before voting; this caveat only comes out after Teia & I have pointed out BV fence sitting again & meanwhile KK has been feeling out the thread for a BV wagon since yesterDay
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10572913&postcount=502
BV thumbs-ups KK for catching Void failing to claim an ability/clearly not looking at a PM, but Jay & I are the ones who noticed Void's claim missing it in the first place
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10582795&postcount=598
Void flailing commences; I am immediately reminded of Pokémon Mafia the on Magic Lampoon forums (R.I.P. yo).
"Growl" was an unexplained move shared by several players including scum-aligned FunkyMonkeyMan; when FMM was forced to claim after a few Days, he posted the mafia version of Growl which revealed that if 5 players used it on the same target that player would be roleblocked, along with the text "other people have a version of Growl but do not get this explanation". Commence Grakthis facehumping FMM by macro spamflooding that quote while FMM flailed to explain why he never told the town what Growl did. We were just babies back then
Moms makes an excellent point, & we are not letting Void slide today so don't even go there
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10586629&postcount=656
Roundup time;
2. BlackVise – Probably scum. Continues to be light-on & wishy-washy. I hate post 205.
3. Gerrard's Mom – Town for initiating the Void wagon.
6. Jay13x* – Town, posts like 120 are glaring town enthusiasm.
7. kaburi – Leaning scum. Post 411 is bad news.
8. KoolKoal – Brass-balled scum.
10. Teia Rabishu – Town. Void's push toDay seals the deal for me.
11. Void* – "other people have a version of Growl but do not get this explanation"
12. Wheat_Grinder – Town. Dig post 215 where he cuts to the chase & puts himself in the town's hands.
I want to go back over the wagons once more, but my eyes are bleeding so I'm calling it a night
I'm ready to move on whenever, didn't really need any extra convincing that KK's barn of a bad case and subsequent flopping about to get off of it have put him in a bad position. I think we have a pretty good idea of everyone's reads, we can take whatever info we get from the Night and investigate our leads tomorrow.