That had everything to do with you and Iso and little to do with Vierni. In fact, at the time Vierni voted you (and later voted Iso), I would have said Cyan was 'leading the Iso wagon' as much as you were. Results-oriented thinking is one thing, but after-the-fact events aren't helpful towards resolving Vierni's mindset at the time, which is what you seem to be asking about... or the actual sincerity of your point, which is what I'm trying to divine.
I don't think this part is either a rebuttal or a question.
I will note I don't need the after-the-effects stuff for what I was doing, I was pointing out that the after-the-effects stuff ended up being to a large extent exactly what I said they would be. At that point, from my angle, the only question is the individual mindset of the decisions certain players made in that time frame and what they thought their actions were doing. I feel like you're not debating that, but rather debating my opinion that certain things would come to pass, and don't care that I appear to have been right about them...to which I respond; bwuh?
Let's put it this way - you can possibly call 3 votes a major wagon in a mini. 2 votes, especially off RVS? That can barely be called a wagon at all. So you characterizing Vierni's vote on you as 'subtly pushing one major wagon over another' is flawed at best, and outright disingenuous at worst.
It is neither of those things.
It is a difference of opinion about what is large.
You say 2 votes at that stage isn't large, I say it is.
If I called it a kumquat strength wagon would we even be having this debate, and if so for what purpose?
The other element of that, of course, was that from how lengthy your spiel on that characterization was, it implied you put a good deal of thought into that - which you blatantly getting the numbers wrong on a not-terribly difficult count seemed to contradict. If you say you have a medical condition, then fine. I can't gainsay your word on that, obviously. But your point is weaker, and by far.
It does not make it weaker that I said 3 instead of 2 if my original point had strength. That's like me doing research on some food and deciding the Big mac is unhealthy because it has 805 calories. And then you say, hold up, it only has 705,a nd I go, ah, yes, I got that wrong - but my point holds. And you reply, no, your point is destroyed because you got a number wrong, never mind that either number is basically fine within the framework of your debate.
It's rather pedantic and doesn't make sense. What if I'd typed 4, would that make it even weaker? Or be the same as 3? What if I'd typed 12? What if I'd just said 'larger'?
The number being incorrect does not invalidate the logic of the case - invalidate the logic or back up why me saying the wrong number magically weakens the whole case because you now think I was a little less research intensive than you originally thought - because I'm pretty sure how much effort I extrovert *isn't* what you're supposed to use as the measuring rod for the quality of my case.
...then riddle me this. If you can apparently pursue different people at the same time in this manner, then what exactly is the difference between this and what Vierni essentially did by shifting her vote from DYH, to you, to Iso? Because if you're applying double standards there, then there's most definitely something insincere about your attack.
Considering I'm not actually attacking Vierni, but questioning her about it...I don't actually spot the theory hypocrisy you're obviouslly salivating over.
You do realize I do happen to think KoL is scummy right now, right?
Are you voting her?
Have you presented a case and got some people voting her with you so that the wagon has any headway at all?
Feel free to let me know, I mix up the number 2 and 3 so I am absolutely untrustworthy in all I say, but I'm pretty sure that means you've got nothing going and so you're not getting my vote - what confuses you on this?
Except that I think that is a different post number than I quoted it as, making it a dismissible point.
Oh, wait, I'm just being sarcastic again - carry on!
I wouldn't be averse to an Iso claim at this point.
Is that actual hammer intent?
Over on MS we like to say that so there's no question what we mean.
Plus it gives Thor more names to play with later in the game, joy!
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
So you liked his vote on Vi, despite not having any idea what the reason for it is? Are you just going to claim scum soon?
I liked the destination, not necessarily his reasons for going there. I've also played with him enough times to give a certain weight to his votes, no matter what reasoning he gives them.
Also, MS is awesome for the warning about new posts feature.
I'm not sold on the smilie army as comparable exchange yet.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
So you liked his vote on Vi, despite not having any idea what the reason for it is? Are you just going to claim scum soon?
I liked the destination, not necessarily his reasons for going there. I've also played with him enough times to give a certain weight to his votes, no matter what reasoning he gives them.
Also, MS is awesome for the warning about new posts feature.
I'm not sold on the smilie army as comparable exchange yet.
Your breakdown of my post is also pretty awful. I don't think it makes you scum but you should probably read what you post before you post it.
That's not my style. The impression I get from your posts from skimming is how I get my reads and it lets me not get caught up in technical bull****
So basically, you don't analyze anything? How effective a method do you find that to be?
Quote from Aggressive_Fate »
and this reaction is even worse. Unwilling to call me scum because of my as-advertised-aggressive nature, it just keeps adding up
I'm not willing to call you scum because a townie can make a garbage push, too. I didn't see your post as coming from a scum mindset, though, and as such, I have no reason to call you scum. How is that scummy? Or are you going to be like Thor and twist the facts to fit the theory?
ISO tell me how you REALLY feel about Vi instead of just having a casual chat with him like you've known him since pre-game
I've made my opinion of Vierni quite clear. I suggest you actually read my posts instead of skimming them, as you've already clearly demonstrated you don't retain enough of them from skimming.
I don't want to go to a cross-site invitational and start flaming people I don't know. But dammit I'm tempted.
I'm with you on that one.
Quote from Vierni »
Quote from "Iso 126" »
Then has it possibly occurred to you there's probably a reason why Cyan is the only MTGSer voting on my wagon? Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Are you seriously, seriously the best M:tGS can offer?
Am I not THE person who has been worried about whether I'm being led by an unfamiliarity with site meta since the moment I voted you?
Have I not been the one engaging in discussions in good faith over how site meta can be used to better reads on unfamiliar players?
Have I not already unvoted you? Surely you could not have missed this.
I'm relatively certain none of that is actually relevant to what I said.
Quote from Vierni »
And for God's sake, how the hell do you scumhunt? For the site that put out Azrael's relatively famous guide to scumhunting via motivations, it seems like the active M:tGS players here are propping their votes up for procedural reasons. We left the walls-of-explanatory-everything-and-voting-for-the-person-who-committed-the-most-objective-flaws phase in 2009 because it didn't work. So when you tell me to "produce effort", I tell you to read the bloody thread and either see what I see or say that I'm wrong because Cyouni wouldn't post something like ___ as scum or something.
We scumhunt by analyzing content and vote rationale - something that I have yet to see from about 90% of the MafiaScum posts here. Bandwagoning =/= scumhunting, contrary to what you may believe. I've been generating loads of content (even considering that most of it is reactionary). You can't ask me to tell you why your push is bad when you're not even willing to explain why it's good so that I can deconstruct your argument. That's not how it works.
Quote from Vierni »
Quote from "Iso 127" »
Also, Vierni, you did not answer my request. Please explain how my vote was different from Cyouni's.
Off the top of my head, I don't remember a difference. That's entirely irrelevant. I thought I saw something Townish in what you posted at some point (I don't even care to look back at what) and I decided to back off and work from the angle that you're Town. I'm not going to sit here and make a case on someone I don't want to pursue. It would make things ~complete~, but it would also be counterproductive (i.e. a waste of everyone's time). Does this sufficiently answer your query?
I'm not asking you to make a case on me. I'm asking you to make a case on Cyouni. It's hardly irrelevant if you're voting Cyouni for something that someone else also did and you think that Cyouni is scum for that specific action, but not the other person.
Quote from Vierni »
So I'm going to ask again. What do you think of Cyouni? If you don't have a definite answer, show what you're working with.
I like his questions. I remain unimpressed by his content but I'm sure he'll eventually produce something worthwhile.
Quote from Vierni »
In re: Goofball - Indeed Kami of Lunacy. Posting bizarrely is more or less par for the course for her. If you want to vote her for it, make her dance; I don't care.
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending.
So...basically when you responded to me and acted like what I had been saying had no merit and you had all these reasons to shoot it down...you were just...y'know...lying for comedic effect?
Lying about...what?
Quote from Thor665 »
I could easily blast the rest of your post
I highly doubt that, but frankly, I'm glad. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, except the brick wall is more pleasant a conversationalist because I can bash my face against it to tune out the inanity.
Quote from Thor665 »
I don't think you're that brilliant at being scum and that's why you get no pressure Day 1 - I think you're able to get away with this gak here for some reason.
And I think you're a godawful scumhunter, so we can both agree to disagree.
If I were going to unvote him somehow, it would only be to vote Nacho, whom is managing to sound more like scum with every post. His last post is a great example. He has already somehow 'lost confidence' in a wagon that he was the 5th vote on anyway, and made zero meaningful contribution to. He didn't even analyze or assess the wagon in any relevant way, he just threw down the 5th vote, and is now clearly looking for a way to get away from it(gg guilty conscience).
Wouldn't the bolded be an indicator that I'm town?
@Iso....the bolded reads like a huge overstatement. I haven't liked KoL's votes either, but said player is currently V/LA and frankly hasn't posted enough of anything that you can at all say she's 'tripping all over herself'.
kpaca once referred to Nai's scum meta as "peeing all over himself". I feel like the same term can be applied here, to Kami.
Quote from desCoures »
You also seem to be more nitpicking than responding in your latest posts. I don't get, for instance, why you needed to ask why Thor asked DYH that question about you.
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
And Iso's 'trying a new playstyle' argument doesn't sound sincere. Mostly because, from what I can tell, he is only trying it for this series of 3 games? Call me skeptical that someone would abandon the playstyle that they love for only a few games. Also, his tone/demeanor, all of the 'I wouldn't do this as scum' stuff just sounds soooo much like Cyberpunk. You can read up on him there, I got him lynched on like Day...1? 2 maybe. It was early enough that you can get the jist of it w/o re-reading the entire game.
Then don't believe it. In the meantime, can you continue scumhunting?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I liked your Vi vote. I lost confidence in an ISO vote a little while ago.
Why?
The thought process of your townread on Cyan seems genuine and reminds me of a player I know extremely well back on MS. She's an extraordinary scumhunter but occasionally gets heat for a not-aggressive-enough playstyle, so I'm backing off a little bit and letting you work.
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
Why are you answering questions for someone else?
I have no problems answering questions that are fairly obvious and won't be alignment indicative.
And Iso's 'trying a new playstyle' argument doesn't sound sincere. Mostly because, from what I can tell, he is only trying it for this series of 3 games? Call me skeptical that someone would abandon the playstyle that they love for only a few games. Also, his tone/demeanor, all of the 'I wouldn't do this as scum' stuff just sounds soooo much like Cyberpunk. You can read up on him there, I got him lynched on like Day...1? 2 maybe. It was early enough that you can get the jist of it w/o re-reading the entire game.
Then don't believe it. In the meantime, can you continue scumhunting?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Many times.
Doesn't mean I just generically sheep him and hope because he has a rep - dude pulls scum as often as the next guy last I checked the maths of percentages.
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending.
So...basically when you responded to me and acted like what I had been saying had no merit and you had all these reasons to shoot it down...you were just...y'know...lying for comedic effect?
Lying about...what?
Well, you opened up the conversation thread with dismissing some of my questions and asking if you needed to explain your thoughts like to a child.
I then said, yes, please explain them to me.
You then said, P'shaw - just wanted to be condescending!
Which, to my mind, is basically admitting that you had nothing originally and are trying to joke your way out of it.
DO you understand the deep and highly complicated thing I am saying now?
I highly doubt that, but frankly, I'm glad. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, except the brick wall is more pleasant a conversationalist because I can bash my face against it to tune out the inanity.
They also lack beards.
And...that is basically the extent of his rebuttal - insults!
I mean, i love a good insult as much as the next guy (unless it's Fate, then it's less) but I do sprinkle in actual scumhunting and reasoning too.
It's shorthand for 'this slot is town'
Iso didn't include it - I figure he's trying to tell us something.
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending.
So...basically when you responded to me and acted like what I had been saying had no merit and you had all these reasons to shoot it down...you were just...y'know...lying for comedic effect?
Lying about...what?
Well, you opened up the conversation thread with dismissing some of my questions and asking if you needed to explain your thoughts like to a child.
I highly doubt that, but frankly, I'm glad. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, except the brick wall is more pleasant a conversationalist because I can bash my face against it to tune out the inanity.
They also lack beards.
And...that is basically the extent of his rebuttal - insults!
I mean, i love a good insult as much as the next guy (unless it's Fate, then it's less) but I do sprinkle in actual scumhunting and reasoning too.
It's shorthand for 'this slot is town'
Iso didn't include it - I figure he's trying to tell us something.
Didn't include what, scumhunting and reasoning? If that's what you're saying, then I'm relatively certain this confirms that you aren't actually reading my posts.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, maybe you did. I thought "please continue" was rhetorical. I don't even remember what we're arguing about at this point, so let me go back and find it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
He's currently looking into the person you're voting, isn't he?
I'm actually voting for you right now. Regardless, that wouldn't matter. If I think someone's scum, then viewing all of their posts through a "this person is scum" lens won't make me any more correct - it will only lead to me self-validating my own read, regardless of whether I'm right or not.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
Many times.
Doesn't mean I just generically sheep him and hope because he has a rep - dude pulls scum as often as the next guy last I checked the maths of percentages.
I never just sheep someone. My point with asking you if you were familiar with Fate or not is that he usually doesn't explain his reads and he usually pulls out his best play when people trust him to a certain extent. His reasoning usually doesn't fully develop until he pushes people a bit (since he is a reactional scumhunter), meaning that there's no reason to give a smurf about his initial reasoning most of the time.
He's currently looking into the person you're voting, isn't he?
I'm actually voting for you right now. Regardless, that wouldn't matter. If I think someone's scum, then viewing all of their posts through a "this person is scum" lens won't make me any more correct - it will only lead to me self-validating my own read, regardless of whether I'm right or not.
you're voting me and he's looking into me and it's kinda based on you being town, as you yourself noted
He's currently looking into the person you're voting, isn't he?
I'm actually voting for you right now. Regardless, that wouldn't matter. If I think someone's scum, then viewing all of their posts through a "this person is scum" lens won't make me any more correct - it will only lead to me self-validating my own read, regardless of whether I'm right or not.
you're voting me and he's looking into me and it's kinda based on you being town, as you yourself noted
Um...no? I'm pretty sure that was in response to his stance on Vierni.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If this is supposed to be in reference to how your reads appear to ebb and flow with the tides, then I fully understand the concept of 'shifting reads'. The thing is, a number of your shifting reads don't seem to have any reason to be shifting.
Being 'tempted to drag out' a tell is dubious.
I don't care about the matters of 2, 3, or 4 votes.
Nacho does not tend to post as much as scum and has yet to post very much.
Kami / Vi are pretty much being Kami / Vi and both make fine sense as town.
Re:Vierni -
You voted Vierni in #36, and said Vierni was 'less scummy, but still sketchy' in #54. By #62, however, Vierni is suddenly fairly high up in your town roster, with only #57 being posted by the person in question in between. And I'm seeing absolutely nothing in #57 that makes Vierni look at all better, so what changed?
DYH is probably town.
@DYH:
Please clarify "I would find this odd except I doubt there are only two scum and KoL just failed to list her scum buddy."
Then here in post #95 DYH is now 'probably town', with only one post in between that could possibly have changed your opinion. What about this one post did so?
Kami mixing up cyouni / cyan is a possible tell / link; last time she said that in a game with me she was 'mixing up' Llamarble (her buddy) and Llamafluff (town).
Descoures posting so far is pretty eminently fakeable and pursues lines scum would go for; strong bid for DYH's spot on the scumteam.
Now this is interesting. Explain what about my posts is 'lines scum would go for', hmm? Or are you just trying to discredit the one person who's actively questioning you?
.
One example of a "line scum would go for" is the old 'X changed his / her mind without anything happening in between' poke.
Scum (myself in the past included) love that one because it's a scummy sounding fact not requiring any empathy-ey analysis.
As for me, I reread and came to a new conclusion. I do that a lot.
If I were going to unvote him [ISO] somehow, it would only be to vote Nacho, whom is managing to sound more like scum with every post. His last post is a great example. He has already somehow 'lost confidence' in a wagon that he was the 5th vote on anyway, and made zero meaningful contribution to. He didn't even analyze or assess the wagon in any relevant way, he just threw down the 5th vote, and is now clearly looking for a way to get away from it(gg guilty conscience).
In this post, Cyan is looking into me and assuming the possibility of you town unless "running away from a wagon with a guilty conscience" somehow means we're scumbuddies.
'Beware of listmakers,'
'you like that A voted B but think both are town,'
"that wagon did not have the precise number of votes you claim it did,"
"explain these reads,"
"Thor's logic is weak and for some bizarre reason this intrinsically makes him scummy"
ALL of these fit into the pattern of relatively inassailable / orbital / not-engaged-but-want-to-look-like-it-safely posting I described.
Well this wasn't as bad to wake up to as I thought it could be.
Quote from Iso 154 »
We scumhunt by analyzing content and vote rationale - something that I have yet to see from about 90% of the MafiaScum posts here. Bandwagoning =/= scumhunting, contrary to what you may believe. I've been generating loads of content (even considering that most of it is reactionary). You can't ask me to tell you why your push is bad when you're not even willing to explain why it's good so that I can deconstruct your argument. That's not how it works.
This would seem to get at the heart of the issue.
Walls of words don't necessarily qualify as "content" and vote rationale, while nice, isn't the only way to get around. What's more interesting is getting people to vote, hold themselves accountable to their vote, and see if their votes come at scumvenient times. As far as you generating "loads of content", quite a bit of it looks uninteresting FMPOV. Anyone can stand up and lecture; fewer can lynch scum. There are things you've said that actually make it look like you're Town (to me, the outsider), and I'm willing to bet you couldn't pick any of them out. And that may be no fault to either of us. But ultimately I care about results, and not the everlasting walls of sophistry necessary to elaborately convince logical automatons that what I'm doing is okay.
I think this mostly goes for all of the mafiascum crowd tbh.
W.r.t. Cyouni - Consider that scum do Townish things and Town does scummy things. I consider/ed both of you scummy but then thought for unrelated reasons that you were Town. This does not by some transitive property make Cyouni equally Town. Does this make sense?
---
In the event that it doesn't, whichever and I don't care.
Let's <("<) ^(º.º)^ (>")> try a paradigm shift.
Since I think we've established that many people are interested in voting for the strange and feral interlopers from the other side and it really looks like there are false positives to go around, why not split up and investigate the people we're respectively familiar with? Surely if someone is scum (or Town), the people who are much more familiar with them would be able to find them more readily. Obviously a lynching majority won't be attained in this way, but these are more what cloud birds call "guidelines".
---
Nacho, serious talk time.
I've got all these jilted-lover feelings over you following HxHxM but you actually don't look like scum. So why are you voting me?
I still don't see that scenario as being the giant focal point you seem to think it was for reasons I've already covered.
Obviously, otherwise you'd be sheeping.
You have failed to have those reasons be so wonderful as to actually sell me that my reasoning is bad though - indeed you don't even really have any logic for it other than 'I disagree' so I'm certainly not sold.
Your subsequent response to desCoures comes across as :words:.
Brilliant rebuttal of my points.
It's amazing that I have not bowed to the reasoned wisdom of your arguments, really. Quite shocking, all around.
I am bemused that I am accussed of lacking logic.
Reasons are given.
I rebut those reasons with specific counter arguments.
And the reply is 'baaaaw, you lack logic...because!'
So yeah, I'm with dC on it feeling fabricated. That Iso is the biggest wagon has nothing to do with Vi unvoting him and voting you somehow projecting leadership onto you. I mean, I don't even- this isn't Chaos Theory, here.
Yes, it's Mafia. And here I sit in a leadership position with the largest wagon and you're hung up on me asking someone why they voted the way they did and then taking a meta game theory debate, disagreeing with it, and acting like it's a scumtell because you disagree with it.
Yes, I think Iso is very intelligent. He's also very self-absorbed; he likes the spotlight, whether he's scum or town. So I think his 'trying to make a good impression' comment is genuine. He's received plenty of feedback recently on how he can rub people the wrong way and I believe he wanted to change that for this game. That has no bearing on his alignment, but considering you're the driving force behind his wagon, I'm leaning town.
Wow.
Catch-22 isn't just for aviators, now it can be a basis of scumhunting theory.
Thor is bad for lacking logic though.
OK, so you're dismissive of cases on you as town. So why exactly are we bantering back and forth about my vote on you, then? Why didn't you just ignore me?
Oh, are 'ignore' and 'dismissive' synonyms then?
I hadn't realized.
You are aware I'm being *painfully* dismissive of you right now, right?
Nacho can run hot and cold as either alignment.
I don't actually think his vote is bad.
Voxx's analysis is itching my paranoia switch, but I'm not sure if that couldn't just be explained away by general dismissiveness. I'm dismissive of cases on me as town, it's how I react to them. Nacho does it semi-similar as I recall, he likes to avoid discussing things about him (which is usually my basis for lynching him).
I don't think it's a valid call at this point.
That's where I was going with the quote.
And yes, I realize you're being "painfully dismissive" which is quickly becoming part of my basis for wanting to lynch you.
You're like the schoolyard bully who tried to come up in here and push everyone around. You got shoved back and now your only recourse is to sling petty insults and make what you think are witty/clever sarcastic "comebacks" (hint: they're not). Color me unimpressed. I quoted this whole dreadnaught of snark so people could see just how little content there actually is to your stuff, and how much of it is bluster.
And back to the crux of my entire starting point, why didn't you ignore Vi's initial vote?
Why in the universe should I? I'm trying to scumhunt here.
I mean, I guess if you think it's pro-town to ignore a random given handful of votes that's your business. But I'm pretty sure that will hinder scumhunting.
What am I missing here, this seems so patently silly as a stance on its face that you can't possibly mean what I think you're meaning.
You *don't* think we should not pay attention to how people vote and why, right?
And if you don't believe that, what's the issue with what I did again? Spell it out, I feel like I must be missing your point. How was me questioning its flow scummy...and if it wasn't scummy why should I have ignored the vote?
Halp!
It was a random vote in the Random Vote Stage, and your initial reaction to it was to get defensive about 'talking being a scum tell'. While you might have intended it to be "in jest" it certainly didn't come across that way with the follow-up question where your bandwagonning crusade began. I stated this pretty clearly early on in the game when you accused me of - and I quote - "a pretty aggressive projection of attitude".
Since I think we've established that many people are interested in voting for the strange and feral interlopers from the other side and it really looks like there are false positives to go around, why not split up and investigate the people we're respectively familiar with? Surely if someone is scum (or Town), the people who are much more familiar with them would be able to find them more readily. Obviously a lynching majority won't be attained in this way, but these are more what cloud birds call "guidelines".
I like this idea.
I'm hopeful it will find the 'Scummers coming to the same conclusion I have about Thor. This is becoming painfully similar to day 1 of Survival Horror where I was all over AsianInvasion as scum (and he was) and no one would listen.
I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Would you like me to walk you through it like you're 2 so that there's no way you can misunderstand what I'm saying?
Yes, i would love that and am amazed you didn't do so immediately if you thought it was a misrep and also lean town on me. Please continue.
Didn't include what, scumhunting and reasoning? If that's what you're saying, then I'm relatively certain this confirms that you aren't actually reading my posts.
I certainly read the one I was responding to - and it certainly lacked both.
Oh wait, I DID EXPLAIN IT IN THE VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH.
Cool, Thor not reading confirmed.
Except you didn't.
You basically just said 'dislike' is some magical term that has nothing to do with scum or town reads.
Which is what I said you had indicated (and I'd also indicated I thought it was bollocks)
And then you'd said I was misrepping you.
Even though, y'know, I'd said exactly what your explanation was.
Meaning it was all bluster when you called it a misrep.
Meaning it was a lie.
Which is still different from 'ignoring'
Which is what you then claimed was going on.
You need to address something to dismiss it.
You specifically do not address something when you ignore it.
I don't feel this is a deeply surprising use of the words - which part do you feel I'm being weird about?
You're like the schoolyard bully who tried to come up in here and push everyone around. You got shoved back and now your only recourse is to sling petty insults and make what you think are witty/clever sarcastic "comebacks" (hint: they're not). Color me unimpressed. I quoted this whole dreadnaught of snark so people could see just how little content there actually is to your stuff, and how much of it is bluster.
There is quite a lot of sarcasm in there - we started this conversation admitting there is a lot of sarcasm in what I say, indeed, part of your current case is built off things I said wherein I openly claimed this.
That said, there is a lot of content in there as well - just because an opinion is expressed strongly doesn't make it bad.
That said, here, I'll do a translation for you;
Dearest friend. I feel as though you are mistaking the words 'ignore' and 'dismiss' Indeed, you have taken me commenting upon the word dismissal and presented it alongside me also accusing someone using the word ignore. However, my ally in scumhunting who might be scum, allow me to clarify that the two words mean different things, indeed, this is why the Queen's English has two different words, and not only one, because they have different meanings. Could you kindly and please express where you think I have used them interchangeably? Whilst you are at it, perhaps explaining your definitions of each word might allow us to get to the boggle of how you're combining them. I apologize deeply about using two words that you have combined into one, and feel it is the root of our current pleasant disagreement.
Oh, if only Thor would be nice in his posts, that would make him more town.
Brilliant!
It was a random vote in the Random Vote Stage, and your initial reaction to it was to get defensive about 'talking being a scum tell'. While you might have intended it to be "in jest" it certainly didn't come across that way with the follow-up question where your bandwagonning crusade began. I stated this pretty clearly early on in the game when you accused me of - and I quote - "a pretty aggressive projection of attitude".
I did react negatively to someone presenting talking as a scumtell - I feel that's a scumtell that deserves a negative reaction. I didn't mean it as a jest except insomuch as I mean all my commentary to be read with a whimsical smile. So, please, take my response seriously, I meant it as such.
I did think you had an aggressive projection of attitude. That's why I said that too.
I fail to see how any of that shows why I should not have reacted to actions and scumhunted them, nor do I think it shows that doing so is anti-town or pro-scum. Which is what I asked you about.
Your initial commentary was that I 'shouldn't have reacted' and I want to know why it is pro-town to not react to things and not to question them? I know you guys believe that for some reason, but it seems to make no sense. The basis of scumhunting is reacting to and questioning things...at what stage of the day am I allowed to start scumhunting in your mind? Can't we just pretend it happens right away and move on from there?
I'm hopeful it will find the 'Scummers coming to the same conclusion I have about Thor. This is becoming painfully similar to day 1 of Survival Horror where I was all over AsianInvasion as scum (and he was) and no one would listen.
"I was correct in a scumread once.
People didn't listen.
Therefore all future scumreads I have are correct and people should listen"
Are there any actual parallels to this game from that game other than;
1. It was a game of mafia
2. You were in it
3. You had a scumread
Because if not, I'm pretty sure this is silly.
What am I missing?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Nacho: You can certainly feel guilty/bad about placing a bus vote on a buddy, especially in a case where A) the vote doesn't make you look any better(such as is the case here) and/or B)the wagon loses steam shortly thereafter, which seems to be happening, to some extent.
Unrelatedly, I really don't get why anyone is voting for Vierne. His? Posts seem town enough to me.
Since I think we've established that many people are interested in voting for the strange and feral interlopers from the other side and it really looks like there are false positives to go around, why not split up and investigate the people we're respectively familiar with? Surely if someone is scum (or Town), the people who are much more familiar with them would be able to find them more readily. Obviously a lynching majority won't be attained in this way, but these are more what cloud birds call "guidelines".
This seems reasonable, until one considers the possibility that all the scum are on one side or the other.
Still, it seems better than what's going on now. It's an endless back-and-forth.
...wait, what? You made the second point yourself, in one of your previous posts. How have you forgotten that already?
I wasn't specifically referring to the vote on Thor, it was more of a general point. More along the lines of "how do you have 'control' of a wagon? Does everyone's votes follow yours around?"
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Nacho, serious talk time.
I've got all these jilted-lover feelings over you following HxHxM but you actually don't look like scum. So why are you voting me?
I'm sorting out people I'm familiar with at the moment, and your posting hasn't really had its unique Vi-flavor until recently; your posts were pretty much snark and ISO read which was all good and well because I was pretty much in the same boat but you didn't seem like you actually cared on picking up on anything mid push. Cy push wasn't amazing, but then you got town somewhere around #133 and have nailed it into obvtown at this point.
You're like the schoolyard bully who tried to come up in here and push everyone around. You got shoved back and now your only recourse is to sling petty insults and make what you think are witty/clever sarcastic "comebacks" (hint: they're not). Color me unimpressed. I quoted this whole dreadnaught of snark so people could see just how little content there actually is to your stuff, and how much of it is bluster.
This is generally Thor's MO as either alignment if he's playing a good game. I don't think it's fair to deny that he's put in a ton of content into the game thus far; sure, his wallfights devolve into fluff (on both sides, usually) but the content is still there and not THAT difficult to dig for.
Odds are good I'll still be able to post some, but I won't be around much.
In game related fashion, I'm pretty sure desCoures and Cyan are town from the MTGS contingent, so if there's scum in our cluster of six, it's in the Iso/DYH/Cyouni grouping.
Random is random, so it's entirely possible one 'faction' could contain the entire scum team, admittedly - assuming that it'll be a 2-1 split one way or the other is faulty logic.
Also, there seemed to be some confusion over a claim request. The way we've done things historically over here is treat L-2 as 'claim range' - if someone is pushed to L-2, we require them to claim, analyse the claim and subsequent behavior, and proceed from there, either backing off the lynch or pushing it through.
We should also still be lynching Nacho, because he's scum.
Thor is probably town, albeit with a slightly exasperating playstyle.
Llamarble lacks self-awareness and is probably town.
Nacho/DYH/KoL would be an off-the-cuff scum team guess if there's a gun to my head. Cyouni or Vi are possible replacements (but likely not both, given interactions).
We should also still be lynching Nacho, because he's scum.
I really am dismissive when people call me scum :(.
Voxxicus, your case will be much better when you update it based on my latest posting because it won't be so useless. Why do you think DYH is scum?
that's a fair vote Nacho, I don't feel like I've really been able to get into this game.
Most of the MS crew stand out as town, with DGb being inscrtutable and you having too much swag to read d1.
The only things that have stuck out to me are ISO's "madscum" reaction to his wagon while also feigning casualness behind his "claim" and also Vi's snarky interaction with him (which is pretty par for the course regardless of what Vi is).
I honestly don't think I have a single read on any other mtgs players, all the "cy" names that I don't recognize have blurred together so far.
You're like the schoolyard bully who tried to come up in here and push everyone around. You got shoved back and now your only recourse is to sling petty insults and make what you think are witty/clever sarcastic "comebacks" (hint: they're not). Color me unimpressed. I quoted this whole dreadnaught of snark so people could see just how little content there actually is to your stuff, and how much of it is bluster.
This is generally Thor's MO as either alignment if he's playing a good game. I don't think it's fair to deny that he's put in a ton of content into the game thus far; sure, his wallfights devolve into fluff (on both sides, usually) but the content is still there and not THAT difficult to dig for.
I'm not surprised to hear that, I figured out today who he reminds me of; he's Grakthis. MTGSers and MiseTingers will know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a compliment and an insult all at once.
I'm done interacting with him directly for now because he's rude, obnoxious, and basically ruining my enjoyment of this game. It's not him I need to convince that he's scum, anyway.
I'm hopeful it will find the 'Scummers coming to the same conclusion I have about Thor. This is becoming painfully similar to day 1 of Survival Horror where I was all over AsianInvasion as scum (and he was) and no one would listen.
I have only been able to stay current in this thread by not reading anything Thor has posted, so etc.
Quote from Cyouni 182 »
This seems reasonable, until one considers the possibility that all the scum are on one side or the other.
Quote from Voxxicus 186 »
Random is random, so it's entirely possible one 'faction' could contain the entire scum team, admittedly - assuming that it'll be a 2-1 split one way or the other is faulty logic.
Do you know anything about combinatorics? Do you have a guess for what the probability is?
Even so, it's a possibility for PoE purposes.
Quote from Voxxicus 186 »
Also, there seemed to be some confusion over a claim request. The way we've done things historically over here is treat L-2 as 'claim range' - if someone is pushed to L-2, we require them to claim, analyse the claim and subsequent behavior, and proceed from there, either backing off the lynch or pushing it through.
I'm pretty sure we're not going to be doing that - "we" being our side.
---
And I still don't know about you people but Cyouni looks like a great choice for scum.
Quote from Nacho 185 »
your posting hasn't really had its unique Vi-flavor until recently
Never even saw it because I posted at the same time and this forum is terrible and doesn't have a handy head's up that new posts have been made while you're typing.
Eh...Cyan, Voxx, desCourtes, and Vi...it's not strong on any of them, really, but let's toss them on the list just to give you something to work with. I feel even the MS gang is playing this cautious probably because everyone has their panties in a bunch because we're representing and being scored and whatnot.
Also, there seemed to be some confusion over a claim request. The way we've done things historically over here is treat L-2 as 'claim range' - if someone is pushed to L-2, we require them to claim, analyse the claim and subsequent behavior, and proceed from there, either backing off the lynch or pushing it through.
We do it at L-1 with hammer intent, to prove the wagon actually has the strength to go through if no claim is forthcoming.
Do you ever get the claim and then say 'let's lynch' and then fail to get the needed votes? Seems like it could happen on a contested claim, or is the claim-ee supposed to sense that and tell people to sod off?
We should also still be lynching Nacho, because he's scum.
Eh, not sure I buy that. I've seen some really horrible town play from him, especially early game. I trust him more than most of the players here to be halfway decent and would rather poke elsewhere, especially if this is just for reactions.
I figured out today who he reminds me of; he's Grakthis. MTGSers and MiseTingers will know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a compliment and an insult all at once.
I get that a lot.
I'm also emotionally able to handle people insulting me without having to run away and hide from debate. It's a talent.
I'm done interacting with him directly for now because he's rude, obnoxious, and basically ruining my enjoyment of this game. It's not him I need to convince that he's scum, anyway.
A good start would be presenting 'any scum case at all'
I mean, you make this broad pronouncement of noble intent and then...sorta sit there.
Hint: no one is paying attention to the case you haven't presented.
If you're town this is laughably sad.
If you're scum this is sadly laughable.
You may wish to adjust fire accordingly.
Bussing Iso would be a nice start.
Just tossing that out there.
Come on, honestly. Is this really normal behavior for Nacho? His posts are soooo scummy. His behavior thus far has been horrendous. His vote on Iso was bad, his 'indication' toward Vi getting voted was bad(especially given how quickly he recanted it). Now he's voting AF, based on..no actual points, just some logic that is so faulty that I would rather believe it is dishonest.
But at the same time..I still don't want to let Iso off of the hook. Cyouni isn't inspiring any confidence in me either.
Do you ever get the claim and then say 'let's lynch' and then fail to get the needed votes? Seems like it could happen on a contested claim, or is the claim-ee supposed to sense that and tell people to sod off?
This has never happened in the countless(over 100 I think) games I have played on here.
Unrelatedly, I like Thor's demeanor. And separately, I have a town read on him, as well as on Vierne.
Humor me for a second, Thor, because A) I have no desire to go back through your bevy of offensive posts, and B) it'd be nice to have a concise recap:
What prompted you to vote Iso?
What exactly is your case on Iso?
A - so sorry that my words cut like ice to your soul.
B - well, also because you apparently can't read the game.
1. The prompt? I'm not sure this is really what you're asking, but what prompted me to vote him was that I saw I could make him the biggest wagon in the game and wanted to scumhunt him. I also had the option to do so to you, so I figured it was a nice time to make a strong choice betwixt and between and see how others would react.
2. As currently stands the case has a couple of points. The core issue is how he ignored my push on him even though he claimed awareness that I was seeking a reaction from him - in other words he flat out admitted he made it hard to scumhunt him, and then claimed that should be taken as a town tell even though even other MtG players seem to grok that this is a null tell at best, and a playstyle tell in all honesty. But the lack of desire to participate in legit RVS while at the same time interacting in a meaningless way via the name discussion meant he wanted to avoid scumhunting and more specifically to avoid being scumhunted.
Then toss in the playstyle shift someone called him on (DesCouteres I think) and the way he would call me on "misreps" and then be unable to show the misreps (and yet continue to bluster suggesting he had) sprinkle in a bit of bargain pleading with me (willing to maybe townread Thor...might help if he town reads me, hint, hint...oh, he hasn't? Then I totally scum read Thor, he misreps!) and a lot of ad hom type attacks (his recent interplays with me where he tosses out his "uncountable" showings of beating me and has clearly given up scumhunting me even though he's not actually clearly calling for my lynch...which means he would think I'm town, but he's taking time to badmouth me because...y'know, that's what you do with town reads)
Mostly that is all just minor stuff though, for me the core is the reaction in RVS - it was staged and phony and is scummy/ The other stuff just makes me feel more sure I'm right.
Make sense, or was it simply rusty nails driven into your eyeballs?
In a related note - I'm still (still) waiting for you to justify why I should have ignored Vi's commentary on me. You seem to suggest it's scummy that I didn't, yet have failed to express what the town thought process would be to ignore it even though I explained a (seemingly obvious, in my opinion) reason that town should not.
Come on, honestly. Is this really normal behavior for Nacho?
Oh the games I could probably dredge up.
I have honestly said to him on numerous occasions 'If you flip town, i will be *so* disappointed in you' and then he invariably flips town.
And yet I still think he's a good player. I dunno, I suppose I would best describe him as a fits and starts player - I think he's good but gets really bad and lazya fair bit too. Let's see if I can go nab an example...
There, look at his Ah-mah-zing play there. Limited shot cop derping around at its finest. That said, he did do solid scumhunting during lengthy stretches. I feel that game sums up what to expect from him pretty well. I think he looks about the same as scum, natch, but just sort of generic fightiness on Day 1 hardly sells me on him as scum.
Do you ever get the claim and then say 'let's lynch' and then fail to get the needed votes? Seems like it could happen on a contested claim, or is the claim-ee supposed to sense that and tell people to sod off?
This has never happened in the countless(over 100 I think) games I have played on here.
Unrelatedly, I like Thor's demeanor. And separately, I have a town read on him, as well as on Vierne.
I pretty much regard you Thor and Vierni as the ALLIANCE OF JUSTICE at this point.
I thought I'd qualified by now too but I guess people have silly doubts.
Voxx has been matching some scum patterns but could flip either way.
I like how Thor basically just rehashed a bunch of points that I sufficiently rebutted and called it a "case". I could have sworn reading was a requirement to play Mafia - guess not!
-
llama, why are doubts on your alignment silly at this point?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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I don't think this part is either a rebuttal or a question.
I will note I don't need the after-the-effects stuff for what I was doing, I was pointing out that the after-the-effects stuff ended up being to a large extent exactly what I said they would be. At that point, from my angle, the only question is the individual mindset of the decisions certain players made in that time frame and what they thought their actions were doing. I feel like you're not debating that, but rather debating my opinion that certain things would come to pass, and don't care that I appear to have been right about them...to which I respond; bwuh?
It is neither of those things.
It is a difference of opinion about what is large.
You say 2 votes at that stage isn't large, I say it is.
If I called it a kumquat strength wagon would we even be having this debate, and if so for what purpose?
I do not understand this line of inquiry.
It does not make it weaker that I said 3 instead of 2 if my original point had strength. That's like me doing research on some food and deciding the Big mac is unhealthy because it has 805 calories. And then you say, hold up, it only has 705,a nd I go, ah, yes, I got that wrong - but my point holds. And you reply, no, your point is destroyed because you got a number wrong, never mind that either number is basically fine within the framework of your debate.
It's rather pedantic and doesn't make sense. What if I'd typed 4, would that make it even weaker? Or be the same as 3? What if I'd typed 12? What if I'd just said 'larger'?
The number being incorrect does not invalidate the logic of the case - invalidate the logic or back up why me saying the wrong number magically weakens the whole case because you now think I was a little less research intensive than you originally thought - because I'm pretty sure how much effort I extrovert *isn't* what you're supposed to use as the measuring rod for the quality of my case.
Considering I'm not actually attacking Vierni, but questioning her about it...I don't actually spot the theory hypocrisy you're obviouslly salivating over.
Want to try again and draw a legit parallel?
Are you voting her?
Have you presented a case and got some people voting her with you so that the wagon has any headway at all?
Feel free to let me know, I mix up the number 2 and 3 so I am absolutely untrustworthy in all I say, but I'm pretty sure that means you've got nothing going and so you're not getting my vote - what confuses you on this?
Except that I think that is a different post number than I quoted it as, making it a dismissible point.
Oh, wait, I'm just being sarcastic again - carry on!
Is that actual hammer intent?
Over on MS we like to say that so there's no question what we mean.
Plus it gives Thor more names to play with later in the game, joy!
Also, MS is awesome for the warning about new posts feature.
I'm not sold on the smilie army as comparable exchange yet.
Have you played with Fate before?
So basically, you don't analyze anything? How effective a method do you find that to be?
I'm not willing to call you scum because a townie can make a garbage push, too. I didn't see your post as coming from a scum mindset, though, and as such, I have no reason to call you scum. How is that scummy? Or are you going to be like Thor and twist the facts to fit the theory?
Would you prefer I vote you? I can do that, too.
what
I've made my opinion of Vierni quite clear. I suggest you actually read my posts instead of skimming them, as you've already clearly demonstrated you don't retain enough of them from skimming.
I'm pretty sure I've already addressed this.
"The exact same thing" as what?
I'm with you on that one.
I'm relatively certain none of that is actually relevant to what I said.
We scumhunt by analyzing content and vote rationale - something that I have yet to see from about 90% of the MafiaScum posts here. Bandwagoning =/= scumhunting, contrary to what you may believe. I've been generating loads of content (even considering that most of it is reactionary). You can't ask me to tell you why your push is bad when you're not even willing to explain why it's good so that I can deconstruct your argument. That's not how it works.
I'm not asking you to make a case on me. I'm asking you to make a case on Cyouni. It's hardly irrelevant if you're voting Cyouni for something that someone else also did and you think that Cyouni is scum for that specific action, but not the other person.
I like his questions. I remain unimpressed by his content but I'm sure he'll eventually produce something worthwhile.
Why did you feel the need to state the bolded?
Lying about...what?
I highly doubt that, but frankly, I'm glad. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, except the brick wall is more pleasant a conversationalist because I can bash my face against it to tune out the inanity.
And I think you're a godawful scumhunter, so we can both agree to disagree.
Why?
I've played on MS before, y'know. I know what it means.
Wouldn't the bolded be an indicator that I'm town?
kpaca once referred to Nai's scum meta as "peeing all over himself". I feel like the same term can be applied here, to Kami.
Is that a question or a statement?
Why are you answering questions for someone else?
Then don't believe it. In the meantime, can you continue scumhunting?
Also, it was Day 1.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The thought process of your townread on Cyan seems genuine and reminds me of a player I know extremely well back on MS. She's an extraordinary scumhunter but occasionally gets heat for a not-aggressive-enough playstyle, so I'm backing off a little bit and letting you work.
I have no problems answering questions that are fairly obvious and won't be alignment indicative.
I don't think he's stopped. Do you?
Please don't. Even if it's an obvious answer, scum can still hiccup and give an answer contradicting a previous one.
I do. He's hung up on me and isn't getting anything else done. Especially when I'm not going to be the lynch toDay.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
He's currently looking into the person you're voting, isn't he?
THOR, I plan to leave in a moment but I would appreciate your will not lynch list.
Many times.
Doesn't mean I just generically sheep him and hope because he has a rep - dude pulls scum as often as the next guy last I checked the maths of percentages.
Well, you opened up the conversation thread with dismissing some of my questions and asking if you needed to explain your thoughts like to a child.
I then said, yes, please explain them to me.
You then said, P'shaw - just wanted to be condescending!
Which, to my mind, is basically admitting that you had nothing originally and are trying to joke your way out of it.
DO you understand the deep and highly complicated thing I am saying now?
They also lack beards.
And...that is basically the extent of his rebuttal - insults!
I mean, i love a good insult as much as the next guy (unless it's Fate, then it's less) but I do sprinkle in actual scumhunting and reasoning too.
It's shorthand for 'this slot is town'
Iso didn't include it - I figure he's trying to tell us something.
No, you didn't, actually.
Didn't include what, scumhunting and reasoning? If that's what you're saying, then I'm relatively certain this confirms that you aren't actually reading my posts.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Cool, Thor not reading confirmed.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm actually voting for you right now. Regardless, that wouldn't matter. If I think someone's scum, then viewing all of their posts through a "this person is scum" lens won't make me any more correct - it will only lead to me self-validating my own read, regardless of whether I'm right or not.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Vi is scum all by himself
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
I never just sheep someone. My point with asking you if you were familiar with Fate or not is that he usually doesn't explain his reads and he usually pulls out his best play when people trust him to a certain extent. His reasoning usually doesn't fully develop until he pushes people a bit (since he is a reactional scumhunter), meaning that there's no reason to give a smurf about his initial reasoning most of the time.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
you're voting me and he's looking into me and it's kinda based on you being town, as you yourself noted
Sleep is overrated.
Um...no? I'm pretty sure that was in response to his stance on Vierni.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
One example of a "line scum would go for" is the old 'X changed his / her mind without anything happening in between' poke.
Scum (myself in the past included) love that one because it's a scummy sounding fact not requiring any empathy-ey analysis.
As for me, I reread and came to a new conclusion. I do that a lot.
In this post, Cyan is looking into me and assuming the possibility of you town unless "running away from a wagon with a guilty conscience" somehow means we're scumbuddies.
'you like that A voted B but think both are town,'
"that wagon did not have the precise number of votes you claim it did,"
"explain these reads,"
"Thor's logic is weak and for some bizarre reason this intrinsically makes him scummy"
ALL of these fit into the pattern of relatively inassailable / orbital / not-engaged-but-want-to-look-like-it-safely posting I described.
This would seem to get at the heart of the issue.
Walls of words don't necessarily qualify as "content" and vote rationale, while nice, isn't the only way to get around. What's more interesting is getting people to vote, hold themselves accountable to their vote, and see if their votes come at scumvenient times. As far as you generating "loads of content", quite a bit of it looks uninteresting FMPOV. Anyone can stand up and lecture; fewer can lynch scum. There are things you've said that actually make it look like you're Town (to me, the outsider), and I'm willing to bet you couldn't pick any of them out. And that may be no fault to either of us. But ultimately I care about results, and not the everlasting walls of sophistry necessary to elaborately convince logical automatons that what I'm doing is okay.
I think this mostly goes for all of the mafiascum crowd tbh.
W.r.t. Cyouni - Consider that scum do Townish things and Town does scummy things. I consider/ed both of you scummy but then thought for unrelated reasons that you were Town. This does not by some transitive property make Cyouni equally Town. Does this make sense?
---
In the event that it doesn't, whichever and I don't care.
Let's <("<) ^(º.º)^ (>")> try a paradigm shift.
Since I think we've established that many people are interested in voting for the strange and feral interlopers from the other side and it really looks like there are false positives to go around, why not split up and investigate the people we're respectively familiar with? Surely if someone is scum (or Town), the people who are much more familiar with them would be able to find them more readily. Obviously a lynching majority won't be attained in this way, but these are more what cloud birds call "guidelines".
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Nacho, serious talk time.
I've got all these jilted-lover feelings over you following HxHxM but you actually don't look like scum. So why are you voting me?
Context. You said this:
That's where I was going with the quote.
And yes, I realize you're being "painfully dismissive" which is quickly becoming part of my basis for wanting to lynch you.
You're like the schoolyard bully who tried to come up in here and push everyone around. You got shoved back and now your only recourse is to sling petty insults and make what you think are witty/clever sarcastic "comebacks" (hint: they're not). Color me unimpressed. I quoted this whole dreadnaught of snark so people could see just how little content there actually is to your stuff, and how much of it is bluster.
It was a random vote in the Random Vote Stage, and your initial reaction to it was to get defensive about 'talking being a scum tell'. While you might have intended it to be "in jest" it certainly didn't come across that way with the follow-up question where your bandwagonning crusade began. I stated this pretty clearly early on in the game when you accused me of - and I quote - "a pretty aggressive projection of attitude".
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I like this idea.
I'm hopeful it will find the 'Scummers coming to the same conclusion I have about Thor. This is becoming painfully similar to day 1 of Survival Horror where I was all over AsianInvasion as scum (and he was) and no one would listen.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Yes, I did.
I certainly read the one I was responding to - and it certainly lacked both.
Except you didn't.
You basically just said 'dislike' is some magical term that has nothing to do with scum or town reads.
Which is what I said you had indicated (and I'd also indicated I thought it was bollocks)
And then you'd said I was misrepping you.
Even though, y'know, I'd said exactly what your explanation was.
Meaning it was all bluster when you called it a misrep.
Meaning it was a lie.
Which is still different from 'ignoring'
Which is what you then claimed was going on.
You need to address something to dismiss it.
You specifically do not address something when you ignore it.
I don't feel this is a deeply surprising use of the words - which part do you feel I'm being weird about?
Why does this not surprise me...oh, wait, yeah, because people always decide a playstyle equates to an alignment tell. Brilliant work, sir!
There is quite a lot of sarcasm in there - we started this conversation admitting there is a lot of sarcasm in what I say, indeed, part of your current case is built off things I said wherein I openly claimed this.
That said, there is a lot of content in there as well - just because an opinion is expressed strongly doesn't make it bad.
That said, here, I'll do a translation for you;
Dearest friend. I feel as though you are mistaking the words 'ignore' and 'dismiss' Indeed, you have taken me commenting upon the word dismissal and presented it alongside me also accusing someone using the word ignore. However, my ally in scumhunting who might be scum, allow me to clarify that the two words mean different things, indeed, this is why the Queen's English has two different words, and not only one, because they have different meanings. Could you kindly and please express where you think I have used them interchangeably? Whilst you are at it, perhaps explaining your definitions of each word might allow us to get to the boggle of how you're combining them. I apologize deeply about using two words that you have combined into one, and feel it is the root of our current pleasant disagreement.
Oh, if only Thor would be nice in his posts, that would make him more town.
Brilliant!
I did react negatively to someone presenting talking as a scumtell - I feel that's a scumtell that deserves a negative reaction. I didn't mean it as a jest except insomuch as I mean all my commentary to be read with a whimsical smile. So, please, take my response seriously, I meant it as such.
I did think you had an aggressive projection of attitude. That's why I said that too.
I fail to see how any of that shows why I should not have reacted to actions and scumhunted them, nor do I think it shows that doing so is anti-town or pro-scum. Which is what I asked you about.
Your initial commentary was that I 'shouldn't have reacted' and I want to know why it is pro-town to not react to things and not to question them? I know you guys believe that for some reason, but it seems to make no sense. The basis of scumhunting is reacting to and questioning things...at what stage of the day am I allowed to start scumhunting in your mind? Can't we just pretend it happens right away and move on from there?
"I was correct in a scumread once.
People didn't listen.
Therefore all future scumreads I have are correct and people should listen"
Are there any actual parallels to this game from that game other than;
1. It was a game of mafia
2. You were in it
3. You had a scumread
Because if not, I'm pretty sure this is silly.
What am I missing?
Will have some access I imagine, so it probably leans more limited than total blackout. That said, expect intermittent.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And yet, apparently no factual errors or misreps.
Funny that.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Unrelatedly, I really don't get why anyone is voting for Vierne. His? Posts seem town enough to me.
They are very countable, and I've shown them all wrong.
Still, it seems better than what's going on now. It's an endless back-and-forth.
I noticed.
The exact same thing, ie. "I can't believe you think my scum game is this bad".
I don't believe I ever heard a reason for this.
I wasn't specifically referring to the vote on Thor, it was more of a general point. More along the lines of "how do you have 'control' of a wagon? Does everyone's votes follow yours around?"
@Cyouni: Fair enough - though I'm pretty sure I have made similar comments as town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm sorting out people I'm familiar with at the moment, and your posting hasn't really had its unique Vi-flavor until recently; your posts were pretty much snark and ISO read which was all good and well because I was pretty much in the same boat but you didn't seem like you actually cared on picking up on anything mid push. Cy push wasn't amazing, but then you got town somewhere around #133 and have nailed it into obvtown at this point.
This is generally Thor's MO as either alignment if he's playing a good game. I don't think it's fair to deny that he's put in a ton of content into the game thus far; sure, his wallfights devolve into fluff (on both sides, usually) but the content is still there and not THAT difficult to dig for.
Odds are good I'll still be able to post some, but I won't be around much.
In game related fashion, I'm pretty sure desCoures and Cyan are town from the MTGS contingent, so if there's scum in our cluster of six, it's in the Iso/DYH/Cyouni grouping.
Random is random, so it's entirely possible one 'faction' could contain the entire scum team, admittedly - assuming that it'll be a 2-1 split one way or the other is faulty logic.
Also, there seemed to be some confusion over a claim request. The way we've done things historically over here is treat L-2 as 'claim range' - if someone is pushed to L-2, we require them to claim, analyse the claim and subsequent behavior, and proceed from there, either backing off the lynch or pushing it through.
We should also still be lynching Nacho, because he's scum.
Thor is probably town, albeit with a slightly exasperating playstyle.
Llamarble lacks self-awareness and is probably town.
Nacho/DYH/KoL would be an off-the-cuff scum team guess if there's a gun to my head. Cyouni or Vi are possible replacements (but likely not both, given interactions).
Vote: Aggressive Fate
please make me regret this vote as soon as I make it
I really am dismissive when people call me scum :(.
Voxxicus, your case will be much better when you update it based on my latest posting because it won't be so useless. Why do you think DYH is scum?
Most of the MS crew stand out as town, with DGb being inscrtutable and you having too much swag to read d1.
The only things that have stuck out to me are ISO's "madscum" reaction to his wagon while also feigning casualness behind his "claim" and also Vi's snarky interaction with him (which is pretty par for the course regardless of what Vi is).
I honestly don't think I have a single read on any other mtgs players, all the "cy" names that I don't recognize have blurred together so far.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
I'm not surprised to hear that, I figured out today who he reminds me of; he's Grakthis. MTGSers and MiseTingers will know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a compliment and an insult all at once.
I'm done interacting with him directly for now because he's rude, obnoxious, and basically ruining my enjoyment of this game. It's not him I need to convince that he's scum, anyway.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Do you know anything about combinatorics? Do you have a guess for what the probability is?
Even so, it's a possibility for PoE purposes.
I'm pretty sure we're not going to be doing that - "we" being our side.
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And I still don't know about you people but Cyouni looks like a great choice for scum.
You mad?
Never even saw it because I posted at the same time and this forum is terrible and doesn't have a handy head's up that new posts have been made while you're typing.
Eh...Cyan, Voxx, desCourtes, and Vi...it's not strong on any of them, really, but let's toss them on the list just to give you something to work with. I feel even the MS gang is playing this cautious probably because everyone has their panties in a bunch because we're representing and being scored and whatnot.
We do it at L-1 with hammer intent, to prove the wagon actually has the strength to go through if no claim is forthcoming.
Do you ever get the claim and then say 'let's lynch' and then fail to get the needed votes? Seems like it could happen on a contested claim, or is the claim-ee supposed to sense that and tell people to sod off?
Eh, not sure I buy that. I've seen some really horrible town play from him, especially early game. I trust him more than most of the players here to be halfway decent and would rather poke elsewhere, especially if this is just for reactions.
Conversely, I find everyone else's style exasperating - it's a burden.
I go well with chocolate though.
I dunno, he actually feels cautious to me from his usual self.
I get that a lot.
I'm also emotionally able to handle people insulting me without having to run away and hide from debate. It's a talent.
A good start would be presenting 'any scum case at all'
I mean, you make this broad pronouncement of noble intent and then...sorta sit there.
Hint: no one is paying attention to the case you haven't presented.
If you're town this is laughably sad.
If you're scum this is sadly laughable.
You may wish to adjust fire accordingly.
Bussing Iso would be a nice start.
Just tossing that out there.
But at the same time..I still don't want to let Iso off of the hook. Cyouni isn't inspiring any confidence in me either.
This has never happened in the countless(over 100 I think) games I have played on here.
Unrelatedly, I like Thor's demeanor. And separately, I have a town read on him, as well as on Vierne.
What prompted you to vote Iso?
What exactly is your case on Iso?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
A - so sorry that my words cut like ice to your soul.
B - well, also because you apparently can't read the game.
1. The prompt? I'm not sure this is really what you're asking, but what prompted me to vote him was that I saw I could make him the biggest wagon in the game and wanted to scumhunt him. I also had the option to do so to you, so I figured it was a nice time to make a strong choice betwixt and between and see how others would react.
2. As currently stands the case has a couple of points. The core issue is how he ignored my push on him even though he claimed awareness that I was seeking a reaction from him - in other words he flat out admitted he made it hard to scumhunt him, and then claimed that should be taken as a town tell even though even other MtG players seem to grok that this is a null tell at best, and a playstyle tell in all honesty. But the lack of desire to participate in legit RVS while at the same time interacting in a meaningless way via the name discussion meant he wanted to avoid scumhunting and more specifically to avoid being scumhunted.
Then toss in the playstyle shift someone called him on (DesCouteres I think) and the way he would call me on "misreps" and then be unable to show the misreps (and yet continue to bluster suggesting he had) sprinkle in a bit of bargain pleading with me (willing to maybe townread Thor...might help if he town reads me, hint, hint...oh, he hasn't? Then I totally scum read Thor, he misreps!) and a lot of ad hom type attacks (his recent interplays with me where he tosses out his "uncountable" showings of beating me and has clearly given up scumhunting me even though he's not actually clearly calling for my lynch...which means he would think I'm town, but he's taking time to badmouth me because...y'know, that's what you do with town reads)
Mostly that is all just minor stuff though, for me the core is the reaction in RVS - it was staged and phony and is scummy/ The other stuff just makes me feel more sure I'm right.
Make sense, or was it simply rusty nails driven into your eyeballs?
In a related note - I'm still (still) waiting for you to justify why I should have ignored Vi's commentary on me. You seem to suggest it's scummy that I didn't, yet have failed to express what the town thought process would be to ignore it even though I explained a (seemingly obvious, in my opinion) reason that town should not.
Oh the games I could probably dredge up.
I have honestly said to him on numerous occasions 'If you flip town, i will be *so* disappointed in you' and then he invariably flips town.
And yet I still think he's a good player. I dunno, I suppose I would best describe him as a fits and starts player - I think he's good but gets really bad and lazya fair bit too. Let's see if I can go nab an example...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=23180
There, look at his Ah-mah-zing play there. Limited shot cop derping around at its finest. That said, he did do solid scumhunting during lengthy stretches. I feel that game sums up what to expect from him pretty well. I think he looks about the same as scum, natch, but just sort of generic fightiness on Day 1 hardly sells me on him as scum.
Fascinating - I almost look forward to getting a wagon run on me.
I grow on people.
Like a fungus.
I pretty much regard you Thor and Vierni as the ALLIANCE OF JUSTICE at this point.
I thought I'd qualified by now too but I guess people have silly doubts.
Voxx has been matching some scum patterns but could flip either way.
-
llama, why are doubts on your alignment silly at this point?
What scum patterns has Voxx been matching?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player