Claiming VT is why you wouldn't be lynched? What? Vanilla is a claim that should ALWAYS get lynched. It's a completely safe claim for a scum to make, and has a built in excuse for never getting NKed.
Also, the idea that you randomly happen to be llamarble's wife via flavor is a complete load of crap, and earlier you said that this 'probably means that llamarble is scum', which now you haven't touched on at all.
tl;dr completely awful false-claim, please get lynched.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Basically, the reason I didn't want to claim because it narrows down the pool of potential PRs. At any rate, we've had 4 claims, it is Day 1, and we have very few players who are obvious town at this point. This game is a disaster and I am pessimistic about the outcome. You guys need to take a look at who's been leading and re-read the game.
I won't fight the lynch on me because the case is absolute garbage (read: WIFOM & refuted) and Cyan especially needs to re-examine his thoughts on the game - which he can do once I flip town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What does your role PM flavor possibly having to do with someone possibly counterclaiming some completely other person?
@Iso: I feel like I maybe know what could be going on here, and if it is, stop wasting our time and just do what needs to be done. And there is literally only one thing I can think of that makes sense of any of us that doesn't involve you being scum.
I endorse the idea of lynching Iso.
Also, whoever whined at me that soft PR claims were supposed to make me not want to lynch him - haha!
Also, let's randomly toss out the 'I am a VT who believes he has fluff info in my role PM that implicates a scum player' and toss that around for a while, and then explain why we're not lynching the lying fakeclaim scum.
1) Claiming VT is why you wouldn't be lynched?
2) What?
3) Vanilla is a claim that should ALWAYS get lynched.
4) It's a completely safe claim for a scum to make,
5) and has a built in excuse for never getting NKed.
1) Actually, wouldn't you expect scum to actually claim something given that softclaim?
2) You heard me.
3) That's rather suboptimal.
4) As is Doctor.
5) Presumably only when surrounded by lots of claimed and softclaimed power roles.
There may be half-decent reasons to lynch Iso but these ain't them.
It's great to know that any scum can just claim Vanilla Town on MS and no one will ever look at them again. To me, THAT is 'sub-optimal'. And Doctor is nowhere near as 'safe' of a claim as Vanilla. It is a risky claim, because on our site, there is almost always a town Doc. So when you false-claim Doc as scum, you are usually just trying to draw a counterclaim from the real one so that your team can NK him. And said real Doc should ALWAYS counterclaim, because getting a 1 for 1 trade is completely acceptable for the town.
And, most importantly, Iso is from this site. He knows fully well that Vanilla is not a claim (around here) that keeps one from getting lynched.
I feel like I've put some pieces together, and I'm waiting to see what Iso has to say back to me. But for now, I'm not unvoting.
And is this how things usually go for you guys? One day until a deadline and everyone is just spouting out claims out of nowhere? Because this is completely miserable.
Also, if there are 'half-decent reasons to lynch Iso' other than the ones I mentioned, how about you tell us what they are?
"...and somewhere in the back of her pretty head there was a fixed notion that she couldn't be happy without being rich. I don't think Jean ever would have married unless the man had money -- real money."
And is this how things usually go for you guys? One day until a deadline and everyone is just spouting out claims out of nowhere? Because this is completely miserable.
Then maybe everyone shouldn't have proclaimed Cyouni town when he claimed VT and we could have just lynched him and been done with it.
This game is being ragged, but part of it is that we're still learning each other's metas and styles (like, a near always present Doc - that seems really weird to me)
And then we're also being surprisingly divisive about it at times. i know I am to blame equally in some of that, albeit a lot of my poking is meant in jest and I've only been legit snarky on a few points, but I at least agree that today is ending poorly for town - but I don't think that is either the fault of the 6 MSers not the 6 MtGsers as a solo site blame. It is clearly the melding of our two styles andthe uncertainty everyone is feeling dealing with it (and, frankly, probably some pressure for wanting to 'represent' the home site properly)
I think it would be beneficial if we at least stopped trying to act like any given style was superior as opposed to just different. I think it's creating unneeded heat and also wasting time.
I'll even promise to stop making fun of the ISO feature here if we can manage this.
Okay, so we have had two MtGsers claim VT (one after a PR softy) which, according to you the meta is to lean towads lynching them (though I swear the Cyourni unvotes was lead by MtGsers specifically because of this...which seems to suggest it would be a scumvantage move, yeah?)
Two MSers have claimed specific PRs - one of which, according to the MsTGers is a 'basically always include' in their games. On MS I am of the mind that some people fellate PRs to a large degree - that said, I don't think that's true for *this* crowd of MSers, and don't think either of the claimants would tend to pull that as a hope to survive move.
I don't grok Iso claiming a Poisoner and Doc being an inelegant pairing - as part of the *point* of a Poisoner is that it avoids Docs - there's actually, to my mind, less reason to include it and not a straight Vig unless there is a Doc.
I have issue with Iso's push on Llama also because, quite frankly, Llama's role is sort of able to self confirm - albeit with a bit of a wait, but I have to say that says to me he is, at worst, an SK. I am content to let him live, personally, because I also don't think he looks scummy (and also because Iso looked *really* sketchy in everything he did to try to get him lynched - seriously, anyone want to tell me different on that one? Bueller? Yeah, didn't think so.)
I am content to have DGB as a Doc in this pseudo auto-confirm Doc deal because that pretty much sorts her for me. If she's still alive in a few days we can revisit the paranoia, but I'd oppose her lynch and now don't need to consider what she's doing anymore, which is a win all around.
I'm fine lynching either of the claimed VTs - I don't particularly want anymore claims, and I also think both of them actually look scummy, Iso by a substantial margin more.
@MsTG crowd - want to sell me on this VT claim = town thing? Because I'll admit it sounds silly, but if all of your scum always claim a PR and multiple of you are willing to say that I suppose we can run someone else up.
That said, if a MS player claims a PR, I don't want your meta to apply to them, because I know if I was scum I would happily claim VT as scum, and I suspect any of them would.
I will admit I do not expect to be sold on this meta.
Hint: with how snarled we all are by the different metas, I would like to go out on a limb and suggest a no lynch is about the most pro-scum thing we could do right now.
1) Actually, wouldn't you expect scum to actually claim something given that softclaim?
2) You heard me.
3) That's rather suboptimal.
4) As is Doctor.
5) Presumably only when surrounded by lots of claimed and softclaimed power roles.
There may be half-decent reasons to lynch Iso but these ain't them.
Vi, look, we know two things to be relatively true at this stage;
1. The setup was designed *here*
2. The players here expect a Doc in the game to such a degree they consider it a town tell and there's a scum strategy of claiming Doc to manage a 1/1 trade off.
Also, at least from my perspective, the extent of the DGB = Scumz case is pretty much apparently based off her making no fething sense at all. Which I am pretty sure is normal for her, and if you want to notice someone making no sense at all go check out Iso, and note that he has the benefit of doing it in a scummy way at the same time.
As noted - please feel free to justify how he did what he did to Llama considering his current claim.
You can't without calling him scum.
That's a pretty just lynch.
Odds are, considering my points 1+2 above you cannot get the 6 MtGSers to vote DGB, at least 2-3 of them have already flat out stated so.
I will add my voice to the 'not voting DGB' crowd.
DGB will not self vote.
That means you need to be able to sway *4* MtGSers to get a DGB lynch.
Even if you come up with the most brilliant argument in the world and can do so, I'm pretty sure you won't be able to pull that together within the time frame allotted.
Why not lynch Iso and let's see what happens to DGB, since apparently in MtGSer minds she's an Innocent Child right now, and frankly even if she wasn't a Doc is a pretty solid scum kill regardless, so likely tomorrow neither of us need to even sweat considering her play anymore - sounds like a nice package deal to me, yeah?
If you actually think Iso is town, then probably a vote for me or Cyourni is about your only chance for a lynch, and you ought to be moving on to that.
But thumping on the DGB wagon right at this stage is a combination of foolishness and anti-town play, and I don't think you'd be the sort to sideline yourself on "principal" as town when, I presume, you have at least a secondary scumread or two.
@Nacho - sorta the same deal to you as well, this is terrible from you and annoying to me, can't we at least manage to get near L-1 with, oh, say 6-12 hours to sort of offer final thoughts before we go?
@desCoures - Iso is scum, and Cyourni is working off a questionable logic cycle for me, but I feel we've talked the same wavelength this game. Please look at your wagonmates and their reasons for voting Llama right now - specifically pay attention to what Iso did.
You really still think that's a just lynch?
If you do you really need to sell it properly, sweetly, (hopefully succintly) and certainly quickly - because it looks vile, and I'm pretty sure Llama is what he says he is. He's even sitting around specifically asking for feedback on his kill ideas, which strikes me as fairly town minded. Yes, his reads have been slow and not as clear as one might hope...I will admit that actually strikes me as a towntell. I know my reads are always 'clearer' when I'm scum. And, seriously, his crime is he doesn't seem to have a clear goal of who to lynch? I mean...meh, usually scum are pretty content to push or join a wagon, yeah?
He didn't even hop on Iso, a clear way to save himself, till Iso literally did a rather scummy thing and tried to make it a 1 v 1 with Llama - which reads at least townish as a reaction.
Am I missing something here?
Because Iso is screaming for rope in my perception - do you disagree with that?
I would like for everyone to let Iso answer the question that I posed to him a couple of posts ago before he is lynched. I think that I have worked something out, and he is just being too coy, but I want to hear it from him.
Point of order - while doctors are common here, they're not guaranteed. However, I have a town read on KoL anyway, so I'm not concerned.
Re: Poisoner claim
This claim, on the other hand, I have a wealth of problems with. The first is the way llamarble made the claim - he just threw out a claim of 'Poisoner' together with a list of people he'd allegedly want to 'vig' (which includes me again suddenly), without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
I already would be raising an eyebrow at a full vig in a mini, for reasons of swinginess, although I suppose it being a poisoner would preclude the game ending at the start of day 3. This 'vig' happens to require one additional day to confirm his ability - which means the earliest we have confirmation of his ability being used is day 3. That doesn't make me comfortable with that claim at all.
@Thor
I do still think Iso is scummy, and would be willing to vote him. I don't think Iso voting for llamarble at the point he did is a point for llamarble being town, however. At that point I can see bussing being his reaction.
Also, llamarble 'asking for input on his kill ideas' is a mischaracterization. He specifically asked Cyan only, who he's been barning pretty relentlessly the whole day anyway. Other people responded, but that's not what he asked.
As for llamarble not hopping on Iso... I do happen to think they're scumbuddies, you know.
------
I'll check back in about 6-8 hours. If you need me to hammer, I can do so then.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I should clarify one thing. If we let llamarble live, then his target tonight should not be anyone but one of the claimed vanillas, or Fate. As it is I already don't like that option, as I half-suspect letting him live is giving the scum team free reign to use their toughguy kill - since I doubt he'd be falseclaiming that far.
By the way, Thor, does the fact that the mod has essentially said 'the scum may have provided falseclaims' change anything about your opinion of llamarble's claim?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
It's great to know that any scum can just claim Vanilla Town on MS and no one will ever look at them again. To me, THAT is 'sub-optimal'.
Do you always deal in absolutes?
Quote from Cyan 862 »
And is this how things usually go for you guys? One day until a deadline and everyone is just spouting out claims out of nowhere? Because this is completely miserable.
Only in the really bad games. Also, it's not just the mafiascum side.
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What Thor's saying by and large makes sense. I don't particularly expect Iso to flip scum, but I think No Lynch would just cause a wagon on Iso all Day Tomorrow.
For posterity I don't believe Llamarble's claim is a town claim. In part because of the way he emphasized that he had a "blue" alignment just like me smacked of over-compensation.
Cyan is scum. Fate is scum. Thor is scum. Vi is scum. Yes there's an extra name. One of them is the scum's mascot.
I also suspect that the reason why the wagon turned on me was because I was barking the right tree(s); no one could offer a reason, a quote, anything to explain why I was scummy.
I was barking the right trees for the wrong reasons as usual, but I bet I was dead on and the scum had to discredit me hard and turn the tables against me.
Look for that tomorrow. Don't ignore it like they always do on MS. I always nail half the scum team on Day 1, I get NK'd, then no one ever looks at my suspects.
without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
From an MS perspective, this seems quite normal. If he had limited shots his role would be '2 Shot Poisoner' or 'Limited Poisoner'.
Also, being aggrieved that the Poisoner didn't clarify when his target died is, to my mind, like being annoyed that a Vig didn't clarify when his target died, or a Cop didn't clarify when he received his investigation. The role dictates this information, and the only reason to claim it is if it is non-standard.
I feel like this is either a stretch on your part, or a meeting of meta differences - from a MS player that looked like a very normal claim.
I already would be raising an eyebrow at a full vig in a mini, for reasons of swinginess, although I suppose it being a poisoner would preclude the game ending at the start of day 3.
Well, he could be an SK and there might be only 2 mafia. That would be a pretty normal setup.
Or it might be 2 powerful mafia, and he's a town poisoner.
Or something else, maybe town is PR heavy.
We don't have enough information for much setup spec at this point, which is actually a decent argument for leaving him alive at this stage.
This 'vig' happens to require one additional day to confirm his ability - which means the earliest we have confirmation of his ability being used is day 3. That doesn't make me comfortable with that claim at all.
But the only way that becomes an issue is if he cannot generate an additional kill, and at that point we have Day 3 pretty much no matter what and could discuss the lynching of him then.
How often have you seen someone without a kill ability claim a killing role on Day 1? I'm pretty sure he has a killing ability, the only question is his alignment to my mind.
I do still think Iso is scummy, and would be willing to vote him. I don't think Iso voting for llamarble at the point he did is a point for llamarble being town, however. At that point I can see bussing being his reaction.
I will admit that the level of what he did doesn't feel like a bus to me - he claimed to be a VT with role relevant fluff info as a way to push on Llama - and did that *prior* to voting him. Like, he got that info and then didn't act on it, he just threw it out and waited for the reaction. That doesn't look like a bus because if he was scum who knew Llama would flip scum, he should have backed up his claim with immediate action knowing the flip would help vindicate his weird claim.
I will agree that his claim is a bit 'meh' insomuch as it has some scum logic by being a "PR" that has perfect justification to never be killed by scum - but that is about the beginning and the end of the bus setup that I see.
Also, llamarble 'asking for input on his kill ideas' is a mischaracterization. He specifically asked Cyan only, who he's been barning pretty relentlessly the whole day anyway. Other people responded, but that's not what he asked.
Looking back at it that may be true - I took the two lines as separate thoughts, but they may be connected and both directed at Cyan. I would note that I felt he responded to the people saying 'not desCoures' though - which feels sort of good to me. Eh, I may be projecting. Since Llama isn't the lynch today and we'll get a 'poison' in play, let's see what happens and who he claims death on and take it from there tomorrow, there probably isn't a value to airing too many theoreticals about it at this stage of the game.
By the way, Thor, does the fact that the mod has essentially said 'the scum may have provided falseclaims' change anything about your opinion of llamarble's claim?
I'm not sure why it should - as I said in my last post 'Day 1, have you ever seen anyone without a kill power claim a kill power?' I honestly, in over 4 years of the game, cannot recall ever seeing that happen. I realize now that I've said it out loud it will be tossed in my face by one of you guys here and used against me, but for now I feel it's a pretty solid point.
Let's consider this though; if this is a fake claim then either he is an SK (and a poisoner) which means it is a kind of weak fakeclaim as pretty much all the mod provided him was, what, 'here's a fake name to use instead of Killy McHates-town, the SK'
Whoop-de-doo.
Or
He is a mafia poisoner, and they probably get to use his ability by not NKing and then he can poison...which is a potential possibility, and actually something I've seen before. At that point the fakeclaim would make reasonable sense.
Or, y'know, he could just be a town poisoner.
I guess my stance is, the claim is hardly so brilliant I think he needed Mod help one way or the other to come up with it, so whether or not I think scum got fakeclaims actually doesn't matter to my point of view on this.
I think it would matter to Cyan's point of view, as his case on Iso is currently predicated on this issue. But for me it's a matter of the rest of the play. In the same way you think DGB looks inherently townish in her play, I think Llama looks, at least, not pro-scum in anything he has done, so at that point am of a mind to believe the PR claim more because it fits within my framework for him. Being a Vig without strong scumreads could also help explain that near constant grumping from him that he was aware he had no strong scumreads - and the fact that he asked for targets after claim also fits within a mental viewpoint consistent with that. Basically the claim and actions seem to make sense together, and I don't see any obvious untruths worked into it - so am fine not lynching him.
checking in to let you all know that I'm online and checking in on this game periodically.
i dig the aggressive fate flashwagon, but i'm available to lynch iso town if i'm forced to do such a horrible thing.
without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
And what good would revealing this information do?
I gave sufficient info for alignment judging.
Any more precise mechanics will only help scum deal with me.
Re:Doctors - Around there, I guess? My sample size is a bit skewed, though, since I usually play in Specialties and Specialty-level games only. In my experience, even when doctors are absent, some kind of protective role or Jack-of-all-trades is present.
Re:Poisoners - If that's the case at MS, then fine. Poisoner around here, though, is rare enough that I would expect more details to be provided with such a claim. And I think I did state that I believe he does have a kill of some sort, just that I think it's a toughguy kill.
Also, over at MS, is a Poisoner really considered a 'more important' role than Doctor, like llamarble initially threw at KoL?
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Deadline is closing. I wouldn't mind lynching Fate, but that's probably not going to happen.
Unvote: llamarble
Vote: Iso
That should be L-1.
llamarble at this point really doesn't have any excuse to be targeting anyone but Fate, who appears to be the second choice for enough people. If he hits anyone else, he needs to be lynched tomorrow.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
And what good would revealing this information do?
I gave sufficient info for alignment judging.
Any more precise mechanics will only help scum deal with me.
Given there's still more than enough reasonable doubt as to your alignment, 'any more precise mechanics' will also help town deal with you.
Private Mod Note
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
What does your role PM flavor possibly having to do with someone possibly counterclaiming some completely other person?
I'm sorry you're not picking up on the dynamics of the setup and what people have been claiming, so let me walk you through it.
My flavor leads me to believe that llama is scum. llama claimed Town Poisoner. That is inelegant with a standard Doctor (which we now know Kami has claimed - no mention of Poison) because it takes away a lot of the skill required to play both roles. The Doctor would be unable to protect against the Poisoner, meaning that either the Poisoner has to be town or they are lying, OR that the Doctor is lying. Given Vierni's soft-CC of Kami, I'm leaning towards lynching her, because I could quite possibly reading too much into my flavor, but I'd really like Vi to just out and say it if that's the case so that my flip (provided I am the lynch) does not get potential townllama strung up (which is, of course, contingent upon Kami being scum).
Quote from Cyan »
@Iso: I feel like I maybe know what could be going on here, and if it is, stop wasting our time and just do what needs to be done. And there is literally only one thing I can think of that makes sense of any of us that doesn't involve you being scum.
See above. If you're suggesting that I'm trying to indirectly counterclaim, that's not the case. I'm VT. I'm Mrs. Fallon. I've claimed my flavor and the implications thereof. Take it as you will.
I endorse the idea of lynching Iso.
Also, whoever whined at me that soft PR claims were supposed to make me not want to lynch him - haha!
Also, let's randomly toss out the 'I am a VT who believes he has fluff info in my role PM that implicates a scum player' and toss that around for a while, and then explain why we're not lynching the lying fakeclaim scum.
Hint: with how snarled we all are by the different metas, I would like to go out on a limb and suggest a no lynch is about the most pro-scum thing we could do right now.
I think this is the second post you've made all game that I've agreed with.
This claim, on the other hand, I have a wealth of problems with. The first is the way llamarble made the claim - he just threw out a claim of 'Poisoner' together with a list of people he'd allegedly want to 'vig' (which includes me again suddenly), without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
I already would be raising an eyebrow at a full vig in a mini, for reasons of swinginess, although I suppose it being a poisoner would preclude the game ending at the start of day 3. This 'vig' happens to require one additional day to confirm his ability - which means the earliest we have confirmation of his ability being used is day 3. That doesn't make me comfortable with that claim at all.
Full Vigs in 12-player setups have happened before. Just look at Agatha Christie Mafia. Doc + Watcher + Vig.
Also, I think you're severely tunneled into your reads at this point and need to examine the game more objectively - much like my advice to Cyan.
What Thor's saying by and large makes sense. I don't particularly expect Iso to flip scum, but I think No Lynch would just cause a wagon on Iso all Day Tomorrow.
This. I'll bite the bullet for the sake of having a lynch wagon to analyze but only if there are no better options on the table - and believe me, there are plenty right now.
I regret not hopping on the Cyouni wagon when there was a chance to lynch him because this Day has become awful.
@Vi: Why are you voting for somebody after you essentially counterclaimed somebody else?
without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
And what good would revealing this information do?
I gave sufficient info for alignment judging.
Any more precise mechanics will only help scum deal with me.
Disagree. Setup balance can be determined after a massclaim if we have your full role info (presuming it won't be revealed on a flip).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Even on MS some people dispute this, but vigs are THE most powerful common town role.
They're the strongest in theory and data from mini normals showed that inclusion of a vig substantially increases town winrate compared to inclusion of a cop.
Poisoner is somewhat weaker, but not heinously so.
Doctors are mostly useful just because they don't get lynched because they're the doctor.
Scum are usually given tools to prevent the sort of unkillable cop/vig actioning every night scenario where the doc really does something.
If they stop a scum kill, awesome, but the odds of that happening in a given game are meh.
Whee mafia theory lesson of the day.
As for more mechanics knowledge helping town, sure, in due time.
It's not like I'm going to withold when my target dies after they've died.
llamarble at this point really doesn't have any excuse to be targeting anyone but Fate, who appears to be the second choice for enough people. If he hits anyone else, he needs to be lynched tomorrow.
Wait; you're Mrs. Fallon???
Allow me to point out the following passage from the opening scene flavor:
Jimmy Halloran kisses his wife goodbye as he heads off to work, his son in native American costume tugging at his jacket.
"Uh, goodbye Mrs. Halloran."
"Goodbye, Mr. Halloran."
Wait; you're Mrs. Fallon???
Allow me to point out the following passage from the opening scene flavor:
Jimmy Halloran kisses his wife goodbye as he heads off to work, his son in native American costume tugging at his jacket.
"Uh, goodbye Mrs. Halloran."
"Goodbye, Mr. Halloran."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Re:Poisoners - If that's the case at MS, then fine. Poisoner around here, though, is rare enough that I would expect more details to be provided with such a claim. And I think I did state that I believe he does have a kill of some sort, just that I think it's a toughguy kill.
Also, over at MS, is a Poisoner really considered a 'more important' role than Doctor, like llamarble initially threw at KoL?
NOOOOOOO des Coures
They are both lying
I have the biggest post count on MS, lord only knows how many games this adds up to, especially given that I get killed N1 all the time, and I've only seen a Poisoner ONCE and may I be struck by lightning if that wasn't some third party BS role.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am stably mental, but not mentally stable.
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Also, the idea that you randomly happen to be llamarble's wife via flavor is a complete load of crap, and earlier you said that this 'probably means that llamarble is scum', which now you haven't touched on at all.
tl;dr completely awful false-claim, please get lynched.
@Cyan: The flavor about llama is pretty sinister in my PM. You are wrong about me, need to accept that, and move on.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like..why are we having this conversation? You are being ridiculous. If this was any other site, I would honestly think that you are a Jester.
I won't fight the lynch on me because the case is absolute garbage (read: WIFOM & refuted) and Cyan especially needs to re-examine his thoughts on the game - which he can do once I flip town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Seriously, what the hell are you doing this game? You need to focus. I could be wrong about llama - but that's only if Vi is CCing Kami.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: I feel like I maybe know what could be going on here, and if it is, stop wasting our time and just do what needs to be done. And there is literally only one thing I can think of that makes sense of any of us that doesn't involve you being scum.
Also, whoever whined at me that soft PR claims were supposed to make me not want to lynch him - haha!
Also, let's randomly toss out the 'I am a VT who believes he has fluff info in my role PM that implicates a scum player' and toss that around for a while, and then explain why we're not lynching the lying fakeclaim scum.
2) You heard me.
3) That's rather suboptimal.
4) As is Doctor.
5) Presumably only when surrounded by lots of claimed and softclaimed power roles.
There may be half-decent reasons to lynch Iso but these ain't them.
And, most importantly, Iso is from this site. He knows fully well that Vanilla is not a claim (around here) that keeps one from getting lynched.
I feel like I've put some pieces together, and I'm waiting to see what Iso has to say back to me. But for now, I'm not unvoting.
And is this how things usually go for you guys? One day until a deadline and everyone is just spouting out claims out of nowhere? Because this is completely miserable.
Also, if there are 'half-decent reasons to lynch Iso' other than the ones I mentioned, how about you tell us what they are?
Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 7
Iso - 5 - Thor665, Aggressive_Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, Llamarble - (L-2)
Llamarble - 3 - desCoures, Iso, Cyouni - (L-4)
Thor665 - 2 - DYH, Kami of Lunacy - (L-5)
Aggressive_Fate - 1 - Nachomamma8 - (L-6)
Kami of Lunacy - 1 - Vierni - (L-6)
Players not voting: None
Let me know if there are any mistakes in the count.
Deadline in roughly 25 hours.
Then maybe everyone shouldn't have proclaimed Cyouni town when he claimed VT and we could have just lynched him and been done with it.
This game is being ragged, but part of it is that we're still learning each other's metas and styles (like, a near always present Doc - that seems really weird to me)
And then we're also being surprisingly divisive about it at times. i know I am to blame equally in some of that, albeit a lot of my poking is meant in jest and I've only been legit snarky on a few points, but I at least agree that today is ending poorly for town - but I don't think that is either the fault of the 6 MSers not the 6 MtGsers as a solo site blame. It is clearly the melding of our two styles andthe uncertainty everyone is feeling dealing with it (and, frankly, probably some pressure for wanting to 'represent' the home site properly)
I think it would be beneficial if we at least stopped trying to act like any given style was superior as opposed to just different. I think it's creating unneeded heat and also wasting time.
I'll even promise to stop making fun of the ISO feature here if we can manage this.
Okay, so we have had two MtGsers claim VT (one after a PR softy) which, according to you the meta is to lean towads lynching them (though I swear the Cyourni unvotes was lead by MtGsers specifically because of this...which seems to suggest it would be a scumvantage move, yeah?)
Two MSers have claimed specific PRs - one of which, according to the MsTGers is a 'basically always include' in their games. On MS I am of the mind that some people fellate PRs to a large degree - that said, I don't think that's true for *this* crowd of MSers, and don't think either of the claimants would tend to pull that as a hope to survive move.
I don't grok Iso claiming a Poisoner and Doc being an inelegant pairing - as part of the *point* of a Poisoner is that it avoids Docs - there's actually, to my mind, less reason to include it and not a straight Vig unless there is a Doc.
I have issue with Iso's push on Llama also because, quite frankly, Llama's role is sort of able to self confirm - albeit with a bit of a wait, but I have to say that says to me he is, at worst, an SK. I am content to let him live, personally, because I also don't think he looks scummy (and also because Iso looked *really* sketchy in everything he did to try to get him lynched - seriously, anyone want to tell me different on that one? Bueller? Yeah, didn't think so.)
I am content to have DGB as a Doc in this pseudo auto-confirm Doc deal because that pretty much sorts her for me. If she's still alive in a few days we can revisit the paranoia, but I'd oppose her lynch and now don't need to consider what she's doing anymore, which is a win all around.
I'm fine lynching either of the claimed VTs - I don't particularly want anymore claims, and I also think both of them actually look scummy, Iso by a substantial margin more.
@MsTG crowd - want to sell me on this VT claim = town thing? Because I'll admit it sounds silly, but if all of your scum always claim a PR and multiple of you are willing to say that I suppose we can run someone else up.
That said, if a MS player claims a PR, I don't want your meta to apply to them, because I know if I was scum I would happily claim VT as scum, and I suspect any of them would.
I will admit I do not expect to be sold on this meta.
@Vi
By the by, look at deadline, assess the gamestate, and recognize you are sidelining.
So...y'know, justify the sideline or help advance us somewhere.
Vi is prob scum anyway.
Iso's behavior is not believable because he expects us to believe that we were not going to lynch him with a VT claim.
And a no lynch is the absolute worst possible course of action right now.
Vi, look, we know two things to be relatively true at this stage;
1. The setup was designed *here*
2. The players here expect a Doc in the game to such a degree they consider it a town tell and there's a scum strategy of claiming Doc to manage a 1/1 trade off.
Also, at least from my perspective, the extent of the DGB = Scumz case is pretty much apparently based off her making no fething sense at all. Which I am pretty sure is normal for her, and if you want to notice someone making no sense at all go check out Iso, and note that he has the benefit of doing it in a scummy way at the same time.
As noted - please feel free to justify how he did what he did to Llama considering his current claim.
You can't without calling him scum.
That's a pretty just lynch.
Odds are, considering my points 1+2 above you cannot get the 6 MtGSers to vote DGB, at least 2-3 of them have already flat out stated so.
I will add my voice to the 'not voting DGB' crowd.
DGB will not self vote.
That means you need to be able to sway *4* MtGSers to get a DGB lynch.
Even if you come up with the most brilliant argument in the world and can do so, I'm pretty sure you won't be able to pull that together within the time frame allotted.
Why not lynch Iso and let's see what happens to DGB, since apparently in MtGSer minds she's an Innocent Child right now, and frankly even if she wasn't a Doc is a pretty solid scum kill regardless, so likely tomorrow neither of us need to even sweat considering her play anymore - sounds like a nice package deal to me, yeah?
If you actually think Iso is town, then probably a vote for me or Cyourni is about your only chance for a lynch, and you ought to be moving on to that.
But thumping on the DGB wagon right at this stage is a combination of foolishness and anti-town play, and I don't think you'd be the sort to sideline yourself on "principal" as town when, I presume, you have at least a secondary scumread or two.
@Nacho - sorta the same deal to you as well, this is terrible from you and annoying to me, can't we at least manage to get near L-1 with, oh, say 6-12 hours to sort of offer final thoughts before we go?
@desCoures - Iso is scum, and Cyourni is working off a questionable logic cycle for me, but I feel we've talked the same wavelength this game. Please look at your wagonmates and their reasons for voting Llama right now - specifically pay attention to what Iso did.
You really still think that's a just lynch?
If you do you really need to sell it properly, sweetly, (hopefully succintly) and certainly quickly - because it looks vile, and I'm pretty sure Llama is what he says he is. He's even sitting around specifically asking for feedback on his kill ideas, which strikes me as fairly town minded. Yes, his reads have been slow and not as clear as one might hope...I will admit that actually strikes me as a towntell. I know my reads are always 'clearer' when I'm scum. And, seriously, his crime is he doesn't seem to have a clear goal of who to lynch? I mean...meh, usually scum are pretty content to push or join a wagon, yeah?
He didn't even hop on Iso, a clear way to save himself, till Iso literally did a rather scummy thing and tried to make it a 1 v 1 with Llama - which reads at least townish as a reaction.
Am I missing something here?
Because Iso is screaming for rope in my perception - do you disagree with that?
Re: Doctor claim
Point of order - while doctors are common here, they're not guaranteed. However, I have a town read on KoL anyway, so I'm not concerned.
Re: Poisoner claim
This claim, on the other hand, I have a wealth of problems with. The first is the way llamarble made the claim - he just threw out a claim of 'Poisoner' together with a list of people he'd allegedly want to 'vig' (which includes me again suddenly), without providing any details whatsoever as to how many shots he has, when the people he hits dies, or basically anything at all.
I already would be raising an eyebrow at a full vig in a mini, for reasons of swinginess, although I suppose it being a poisoner would preclude the game ending at the start of day 3. This 'vig' happens to require one additional day to confirm his ability - which means the earliest we have confirmation of his ability being used is day 3. That doesn't make me comfortable with that claim at all.
@Thor
I do still think Iso is scummy, and would be willing to vote him. I don't think Iso voting for llamarble at the point he did is a point for llamarble being town, however. At that point I can see bussing being his reaction.
Also, llamarble 'asking for input on his kill ideas' is a mischaracterization. He specifically asked Cyan only, who he's been barning pretty relentlessly the whole day anyway. Other people responded, but that's not what he asked.
As for llamarble not hopping on Iso... I do happen to think they're scumbuddies, you know.
------
I'll check back in about 6-8 hours. If you need me to hammer, I can do so then.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I should clarify one thing. If we let llamarble live, then his target tonight should not be anyone but one of the claimed vanillas, or Fate. As it is I already don't like that option, as I half-suspect letting him live is giving the scum team free reign to use their toughguy kill - since I doubt he'd be falseclaiming that far.
By the way, Thor, does the fact that the mod has essentially said 'the scum may have provided falseclaims' change anything about your opinion of llamarble's claim?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Only in the really bad games. Also, it's not just the mafiascum side.
----
What Thor's saying by and large makes sense. I don't particularly expect Iso to flip scum, but I think No Lynch would just cause a wagon on Iso all Day Tomorrow.
Unvote: Kami of Lunacy
Vote: Iso (L-1)
@Llamarble: Please nuke Fate Tonight.
----
Iso - 6 - Thor665, Aggressive_Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, llamarble, Vierni - (L-1)
llamarble - 3 - desCoures, Iso, Cyouni - (L-4)
Thor665 - 2 - DYH, Kami of Lunacy - (L-5)
Aggressive_Fate - 1 - Nachomamma8 - (L-6)
Oh get lost, you've never made any effort, you just called me a 'policy lynch' like the good little scum you are.
Vote: Vierni
If there is a watcher, watch over me tonight.
Cyan is scum. Fate is scum. Thor is scum. Vi is scum. Yes there's an extra name. One of them is the scum's mascot.
I was barking the right trees for the wrong reasons as usual, but I bet I was dead on and the scum had to discredit me hard and turn the tables against me.
Look for that tomorrow. Don't ignore it like they always do on MS. I always nail half the scum team on Day 1, I get NK'd, then no one ever looks at my suspects.
Or we could flash-wagon you and lynch scum today. Vi you should self-vote.
How common is common? Are we talking 75%? More? Less?
From an MS perspective, this seems quite normal. If he had limited shots his role would be '2 Shot Poisoner' or 'Limited Poisoner'.
Also, being aggrieved that the Poisoner didn't clarify when his target died is, to my mind, like being annoyed that a Vig didn't clarify when his target died, or a Cop didn't clarify when he received his investigation. The role dictates this information, and the only reason to claim it is if it is non-standard.
I feel like this is either a stretch on your part, or a meeting of meta differences - from a MS player that looked like a very normal claim.
Well, he could be an SK and there might be only 2 mafia. That would be a pretty normal setup.
Or it might be 2 powerful mafia, and he's a town poisoner.
Or something else, maybe town is PR heavy.
We don't have enough information for much setup spec at this point, which is actually a decent argument for leaving him alive at this stage.
But the only way that becomes an issue is if he cannot generate an additional kill, and at that point we have Day 3 pretty much no matter what and could discuss the lynching of him then.
How often have you seen someone without a kill ability claim a killing role on Day 1? I'm pretty sure he has a killing ability, the only question is his alignment to my mind.
I will admit that the level of what he did doesn't feel like a bus to me - he claimed to be a VT with role relevant fluff info as a way to push on Llama - and did that *prior* to voting him. Like, he got that info and then didn't act on it, he just threw it out and waited for the reaction. That doesn't look like a bus because if he was scum who knew Llama would flip scum, he should have backed up his claim with immediate action knowing the flip would help vindicate his weird claim.
I will agree that his claim is a bit 'meh' insomuch as it has some scum logic by being a "PR" that has perfect justification to never be killed by scum - but that is about the beginning and the end of the bus setup that I see.
Looking back at it that may be true - I took the two lines as separate thoughts, but they may be connected and both directed at Cyan. I would note that I felt he responded to the people saying 'not desCoures' though - which feels sort of good to me. Eh, I may be projecting. Since Llama isn't the lynch today and we'll get a 'poison' in play, let's see what happens and who he claims death on and take it from there tomorrow, there probably isn't a value to airing too many theoreticals about it at this stage of the game.
I'm not sure why it should - as I said in my last post 'Day 1, have you ever seen anyone without a kill power claim a kill power?' I honestly, in over 4 years of the game, cannot recall ever seeing that happen. I realize now that I've said it out loud it will be tossed in my face by one of you guys here and used against me, but for now I feel it's a pretty solid point.
Let's consider this though; if this is a fake claim then either he is an SK (and a poisoner) which means it is a kind of weak fakeclaim as pretty much all the mod provided him was, what, 'here's a fake name to use instead of Killy McHates-town, the SK'
Whoop-de-doo.
Or
He is a mafia poisoner, and they probably get to use his ability by not NKing and then he can poison...which is a potential possibility, and actually something I've seen before. At that point the fakeclaim would make reasonable sense.
Or, y'know, he could just be a town poisoner.
I guess my stance is, the claim is hardly so brilliant I think he needed Mod help one way or the other to come up with it, so whether or not I think scum got fakeclaims actually doesn't matter to my point of view on this.
I think it would matter to Cyan's point of view, as his case on Iso is currently predicated on this issue. But for me it's a matter of the rest of the play. In the same way you think DGB looks inherently townish in her play, I think Llama looks, at least, not pro-scum in anything he has done, so at that point am of a mind to believe the PR claim more because it fits within my framework for him. Being a Vig without strong scumreads could also help explain that near constant grumping from him that he was aware he had no strong scumreads - and the fact that he asked for targets after claim also fits within a mental viewpoint consistent with that. Basically the claim and actions seem to make sense together, and I don't see any obvious untruths worked into it - so am fine not lynching him.
Make sense?
No.
NO NO NO NO NO
Oh no
It does not.
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Aggressive_Fate
i dig the aggressive fate flashwagon, but i'm available to lynch iso town if i'm forced to do such a horrible thing.
That actually doesn't make it an unusual claim - it makes it a claim you do not believe.
So what I'm saying is
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Aggressive_Fate
I don't think I'd be so derp as to claim a kill as an SK, but I've never gotten that role so >_>
And what good would revealing this information do?
I gave sufficient info for alignment judging.
Any more precise mechanics will only help scum deal with me.
Re:Doctors - Around there, I guess? My sample size is a bit skewed, though, since I usually play in Specialties and Specialty-level games only. In my experience, even when doctors are absent, some kind of protective role or Jack-of-all-trades is present.
Re:Poisoners - If that's the case at MS, then fine. Poisoner around here, though, is rare enough that I would expect more details to be provided with such a claim. And I think I did state that I believe he does have a kill of some sort, just that I think it's a toughguy kill.
Also, over at MS, is a Poisoner really considered a 'more important' role than Doctor, like llamarble initially threw at KoL?
-------------
Deadline is closing. I wouldn't mind lynching Fate, but that's probably not going to happen.
Unvote: llamarble
Vote: Iso
That should be L-1.
llamarble at this point really doesn't have any excuse to be targeting anyone but Fate, who appears to be the second choice for enough people. If he hits anyone else, he needs to be lynched tomorrow.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Given there's still more than enough reasonable doubt as to your alignment, 'any more precise mechanics' will also help town deal with you.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I'm sorry you're not picking up on the dynamics of the setup and what people have been claiming, so let me walk you through it.
My flavor leads me to believe that llama is scum. llama claimed Town Poisoner. That is inelegant with a standard Doctor (which we now know Kami has claimed - no mention of Poison) because it takes away a lot of the skill required to play both roles. The Doctor would be unable to protect against the Poisoner, meaning that either the Poisoner has to be town or they are lying, OR that the Doctor is lying. Given Vierni's soft-CC of Kami, I'm leaning towards lynching her, because I could quite possibly reading too much into my flavor, but I'd really like Vi to just out and say it if that's the case so that my flip (provided I am the lynch) does not get potential townllama strung up (which is, of course, contingent upon Kami being scum).
See above. If you're suggesting that I'm trying to indirectly counterclaim, that's not the case. I'm VT. I'm Mrs. Fallon. I've claimed my flavor and the implications thereof. Take it as you will.
because die
It does when you're me.
I'm curious why you didn't try to lynch Cyouni, in this case. Not deflecting - just wondering why the double standard.
I think this is the second post you've made all game that I've agreed with.
Damn right.
Full Vigs in 12-player setups have happened before. Just look at Agatha Christie Mafia. Doc + Watcher + Vig.
Also, I think you're severely tunneled into your reads at this point and need to examine the game more objectively - much like my advice to Cyan.
This. I'll bite the bullet for the sake of having a lynch wagon to analyze but only if there are no better options on the table - and believe me, there are plenty right now.
I regret not hopping on the Cyouni wagon when there was a chance to lynch him because this Day has become awful.
@Vi: Why are you voting for somebody after you essentially counterclaimed somebody else?
Aaand what changed your mind on me this time? .-.
Disagree. Setup balance can be determined after a massclaim if we have your full role info (presuming it won't be revealed on a flip).
Redirectors are a thing. Are you taking my potential flip into consideration at all?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
They're the strongest in theory and data from mini normals showed that inclusion of a vig substantially increases town winrate compared to inclusion of a cop.
Poisoner is somewhat weaker, but not heinously so.
Doctors are mostly useful just because they don't get lynched because they're the doctor.
Scum are usually given tools to prevent the sort of unkillable cop/vig actioning every night scenario where the doc really does something.
If they stop a scum kill, awesome, but the odds of that happening in a given game are meh.
Whee mafia theory lesson of the day.
As for more mechanics knowledge helping town, sure, in due time.
It's not like I'm going to withold when my target dies after they've died.
Then what was up with the vote on him when he set up the 1v1 you?
Meh, I don't think we have an agreed upon chart of PRs ranking them in levels of importance.
That said, I know I personally think Vig is one of the best town roles and that Doc is one of the most useless - so I agree with him.
I am down with that.
You claimed VT bro. WTF is this.
Wait; you're Mrs. Fallon???
Allow me to point out the following passage from the opening scene flavor:
Why do you think you are my wife?
Halloran, whatever
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
NOOOOOOO des Coures
They are both lying
I have the biggest post count on MS, lord only knows how many games this adds up to, especially given that I get killed N1 all the time, and I've only seen a Poisoner ONCE and may I be struck by lightning if that wasn't some third party BS role.