@FB: After AI died, you had no choice but to shoot RR. You were committed to that because you couldn't restore a burnout, and didn't have the luxury of sacrificing yourself to get rid of Megiddo. Plus it wouldn't make sense for a scum-Megiddo to lie about you not restoring him, after giving a town investigation result.
@AI: I'm surprised that you didn't claim something other than Armored. Your role being 'Cyan's role but better' was a really glaring spot for you to be in.
In Guardman's defense, he was going to get lynched if he claimed Vanilla, so, might as well try to claim something else that A)might get by but B)isn't going to get another townie dead by counterclaiming.
Seppel has no such excuse. He was being Seppel, and finally got called to task for it. Maybe he'll learn something.
As for meta arguments. Meta prevented mislynches on Zionite and AE, at the very least, and was largely responsible for Axel getting lynched. Zero mislynches were based on meta. Meta is a completely fine tool. Very, very few players on here 'play to their meta'. Most people don't even try, presumably because they're not sure they can do it? I don't know. But meta is a completely valid tool.
The mislynch that I feel really bad about is EtR. I really wasn't suspicious of him before the mass-claim, and I got too hung up on 'your claimed actions don't make sense to me(and they still don't). I should have looked deeper at it and realized that, even though they didn't make sense as town, they didn't really make sense as scum either. Of course, he couldn't verify it, so there is that.
I've lost the piece of paper I wrote the actions on, but mostly everything was claimed. The only thing that wasn't were Axel's targets for tainting, and that didn't end up being relevant because A) the town burned out before he did, and B) Megs used that burnout inspection on the only tainted target.
@Cyan: I still could have sacrificed myself for RR, I think (get him mislynched first, then me)
Meta didn't prevent Zionite's lynch; Axel being the better lynch did. You were the only one fully convinced by Zionite's meta. Without Axel I'm pretty sure Zionite could've been mislynched.
Meta should only be used as a supporting tool. There were so many bad meta arguments on D1 and D2 that if the town had really followed them, I think we would've won easily.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that one of the reasons I chose to keep myself alive instead of sacrificing was that I had no idea whether Axel would be putting in the endgame effort, given how much he had been lurking (along with his work situation).
Meta didn't prevent Zionite's lynch; Axel being the better lynch did. You were the only one fully convinced by Zionite's meta. Without Axel I'm pretty sure Zionite could've been mislynched.
Meta should only be used as a supporting tool. There were so many bad meta arguments on D1 and D2 that if the town had really followed them, I think we would've won easily.
You mean..the part that was correct, and kept the town RB from getting mislynched?
He was quoting his own meta, dude.
That he had demonstrated an intrinsic understanding of his past metagame ended any possible validity of a meta argument to support not lynching him.
If he knows his meta as well as HE HIMSELF SAID ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, he can easily manipulate his playstyle to use that. I know I would have, if I were Zionite and scum. This is why meta should not have been emphasised so heavily in his case.
You mean..the part that was correct, and kept the town RB from getting mislynched?
He was quoting his own meta, dude.
That he had demonstrated an intrinsic understanding of his past metagame ended any possible validity of a meta argument to support not lynching him.
If he knows his meta as well as HE HIMSELF SAID ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, he can easily manipulate his playstyle to use that. I know I would have, if I were Zionite and scum. This is why meta should not have been emphasised so heavily in his case.
I'll admit I played a terrible game, but this is one thing I think I did well. Cyan already knew I was town from my meta; I just tried to show what he may be referring to. I think that the whole "self-meta isn't applicable" thing isn't as solid as it seems. Yes, in a world where everyone plays optimally and in their own self interest, it makes perfect sense that self-meta is invalid. But the simple fact is that most players aren't bothering to change their meta based on self-reflection unless they're playing a gimmick, and even then they're dodging the meta arguments completely instead of changing their playstyle. Every time I've tried to change my playstyle "because meta", I've gotten lynched. So I've just accepted that I play the way I play and stopped trying to change it.
That said, I should really listen to my team more; concentrate on my town reads rather than tunneling on my scum reads. That would make me a more useful player overall.
Thanks for the game DYH; excellently crafted and hosted.
A couple of notes after reading the Spectator Chat:
@DRey: If it were at all possible, I have less respect than ever for your capability at playing this game. You replaced in, acted like a giant tool, were wrong about everything that I can remember, and then called my play into question when it was easy for you to do so because you could see the whole setup. If I am ever in another game that you sign up for, I will immediately remove myself.
For all that you want to get on my case, the only lynch that I feel was poor was EtR. Seppel and Guardman got what they deserved. And if I weren't around at the end of the game, Zionite clearly would have gotten mislynched, and I don't think that the town would have pulled it out from there.
@DYH: Previous Amistaria games made it clear that you actively work against any kind of setup analysis, which pretty clearly includes flavor analysis. Megiddo's role is a prime example of this. You had to be trying to spite people that would want to analyze the setup when you decided that his rolename should be 'Cop', among a field of rolenames that otherwise went out of their way to obscure what the role did, and were not traditional mafia rolenames. I have a very hard time believing that this was purely because 'that was his job'. Maybe your desire to stifle setup analysis just runs really deep. :P(I think that referring to it is setup 'gaming' is really ****ty, incidentally..every setup is inevitably going to be analyzed unless it's Open/all Vanilla).
Also, to put it plainly(sorry Zionite), Zionite is a good enough player to be aware of his own meta. He is not a good enough player to able to PLAY to his own meta. There is a huge difference. And honestly like..have you seen Zionite be scum? Go read MTGS Mafia Redux Part 2. He is pretty bad at being scum.
For me, meta being used on other players has become about mindset, not actions. "Did they think this way in the past in a scum game?" I used to be able to instantly pick up meta tells from players (such as Arcadic), but I've played almost 100 Mafia games now and a lot of it has blended together. Though this game taught me about lurkers!
Also, again to me for picking up that fadeblue was the only non-Servant-claimed active role without a Burnout.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
sorry for bad play + replacing out. I told DYH but RL suddenly required that I reshuffle priorities around, and while I could still manage modding a game, the obligation of playing in two was just not something I could have on my plate.
I'll be back in it some time down the road but I am taking a break for now.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
God. Day 1 really was a colossal failure on my behalf.
I'm sorry I rustled your jimmies, AI. Maybe we'll play together again in the future.
All-in-all, I think the lurking is what inevitably resulted in the scum team's demise. They had mislynch options in PRP, Zionite, and potentially AE, and didn't capitalize. The AI bus was the worst move they could have made, and then some.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@FB: Before was the game right before this. It would be one thing if the game were years ago, but people don't magically change playstyle/capability from one game to the next. See also: PRP in Presidential Mafia vs. this one.
So basically, "This guy was bad at scum before, he will never get better"
Kind of correct. I can't get exponentially better within a short time frame; I'd only be able to improve slightly every game I'm scum. But the exact opposite has happened; I've gotten worse as scum over time. My early scum games went really well but some of the later ones I've gotten smoked, mostly due to bad play. Me being scum here would be making a lot of assumptions about how much attention I've been putting on this game in particular and counter-metaing myself with every post, but so much evidence from previous games proved to be contrary.
God. Day 1 really was a colossal failure on my behalf.
I'm sorry I rustled your jimmies, AI. Maybe we'll play together again in the future.
Yeah, it was. Some of my reaction was faked, obviously, but I was legitimately mad that you got away with that nonsense. We've basically set the precedence that "Iso can do whatever he wants and get away with it" which is obviously extremely dangerous.
1. I love false claiming when I don't have a good reason to tell the truth. Controlled Chaos and all that. Actually now that I think about it I probably lie more as town than scum.
2. I could claim vanilla and get lynched. Or I could either not get lynched or make an anti-town neutral slip up.
3. This is the first time I can honestly say I think my mislynch was bad. Usually when I strung up for being me it has actual reasons behind it, but the major points against me like refusing to claim until Iso did and for "overthinking" aren't scummy. It should've been pretty obvious that my wagon wasn't up to snuff when you had several people disagreeing why I was "scum" in the first place.
I agree that the AI bus was bad. I didn't want to lynch AI, but I didn't think he would actually get lynched that day since the town was so bad =/ Again, I accept responsibility.
What I actually wanted was for AI to bus me, but since we couldn't communicate, that was impossible.
Thanks for the game DYH. This one was pretty hard to read towards the end. I kept thinking that the lynches were going to get steered away at the last moment on the last two days.
I'm pretty sure I had Axel pegged when he tried to push me for pushing AI, but other than that my reads weren't too solid until I was at like, L-2. And even then I was wrong about DRey. I was absolutely convinced that with the limited killing power we had seen that DRey and I couldn't both be town. :S
God. Day 1 really was a colossal failure on my behalf.
I'm sorry I rustled your jimmies, AI. Maybe we'll play together again in the future.
Yeah, it was. Some of my reaction was faked, obviously, but I was legitimately mad that you got away with that nonsense.
For what it's worth, you make a very convincing outraged townie. Which is the only reason why I was reluctant to lynch you.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
We've basically set the precedence that "Iso can do whatever he wants and get away with it" which is obviously extremely dangerous.
Obviously I'm fine with it. And hey, it worked out in the long run [for the town]. Plus I'm not intentionally making bad gambits and horrible falseclaims anymore - I've actually weaned a lot off of the lying (at least as town) recently.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, I was awful so I shan't be critical of anyone else. I will simply gripe about my role. So.
WHAT THE **** WAS UP WITH A ******* FLAVOR COP IN THIS GAME. WHAT THE **** IS MY "IMMUNITY" SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THAT?
I was FREAKING OUT when that got claimed and everyone was forced to "flavor" claim their ******* roles. WHAT THE **** can I say? I get that he's not going to get "negative vibes" or whatever the heck he gets from scum from me, but WHAT WILL HE GET? I had no freaking idea. All I can guess is that he gets some kind of "hint" about my character, and, like, it seemed my defining characteristic was seeking revenge for my mother or something. I was guessing he was going to see an image of a woman...or something? So, I just tried to make up something that could explain why he would be seeing a woman. And I was actually reasonably happy with what I made up. AND THEN TAR COME OUT AND SAYS THIS IS TOO SUSPICIOUSLY LIKE HIS OWN ROLE FLAVOR WHICH KPACA LIED ABOUT. WHAT THE ****.
It's bad enough that my "immunity" doesn't actually make me immune to a "flavor" Cop, but then, even when I "tainted" someone correctly, it didn't even stop the actual inspect ability. It was completely awful.
@FB: After AI died, you had no choice but to shoot RR. You were committed to that because you couldn't restore a burnout, and didn't have the luxury of sacrificing yourself to get rid of Megiddo. Plus it wouldn't make sense for a scum-Megiddo to lie about you not restoring him, after giving a town investigation result.
Well, at that point I think the only real chance was to let Meg be and hope that you (and others) continued to seek his death. Given how gung-ho you were to see him hang, this wasn't beyond the realm of possibility.
Sure, maybe you completely reverse yourself when Fade does not "restore" his burnout the next day, but, as you may have noticed, killing RR didn't exactly help Fade anyway.
All-in-all, I think the lurking is what inevitably resulted in the scum team's demise. They had mislynch options in PRP, Zionite, and potentially AE, and didn't capitalize. The AI bus was the worst move they could have made, and then some.
I won't argue that if I was able to put more effort in I would have looked better. At least as good as PRP or AE. But from where I was sitting AI was a complete goner that day. I don't realistically think we could have got someone else.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I were scum, I would have killed Zionite and as fade would have said "derf I tried to out-WIFOM the scum because I thought they would kill RobRoy oh well".
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. I love false claiming when I don't have a good reason to tell the truth. Controlled Chaos and all that. Actually now that I think about it I probably lie more as town than scum.
2. I could claim vanilla and get lynched. Or I could either not get lynched or make an anti-town neutral slip up.
3. This is the first time I can honestly say I think my mislynch was bad. Usually when I strung up for being me it has actual reasons behind it, but the major points against me like refusing to claim until Iso did and for "overthinking" aren't scummy. It should've been pretty obvious that my wagon wasn't up to snuff when you had several people disagreeing why I was "scum" in the first place.
I respect your right to make gambits. I do. It's just that your false claim absolutely got you mislynched.
Let me rephrase.
STOP FAILING AT FALSE CLAIMING YOUR ROLE AS TOWN. GAWD.
@Cyan: I certainly didn't mean to imply that "setup gaming" = bad thing; I do it as well. My point was that I've never really gone out of my way to discourage flavor-gaming, rather that I like to keep things interesting so a mass-claim can't break the setup.
@Axel: In hindsight, I should have provided you, specifically, with a false claim - much as I did for your mother's character in the original Amistarian. He was going to see an innocent version of yourself; a sorceress, but with no ill intentions.
PRP had a good read but was unable to convince anyone that he was right. So he ultimately had very little to do with my lynch.
/barn
Not wanting to be that guy, Pope had little to no relevance to your lynch, I even loled when he said "I managed to get AI lynched and now I'm going to get Zion lynched", pretty amusing.
At first I thought that this was a flaw in the setup, but I really should have known better.
How claiming yet another protective role when me, Cyan, Seppel had already claimed is a flaw in the setup? Do you think a everyTownieIsProtectiveRole would be a nice setup? Had you not claimed Armored for no reason, the end could've been completely different since no one wanted to lynch you but your teamates.;)
As for meta arguments. Meta prevented mislynches on Zionite and AE, at the very least, and was largely responsible for Axel getting lynched.
I don't think meta prevented a Zion mislynch, you did by correctly reading him, and not only because of meta, everything about him screamed town imho, his actions, his posts, the intention, being a servant and meta pointed at him being town.
AE was confirmed because the 4 servants confirmed town block and Axel was just POE imho, before the day of his lynch he never was in any real danger.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that one of the reasons I chose to keep myself alive instead of sacrificing was that I had no idea whether Axel would be putting in the endgame effort, given how much he had been lurking (along with his work situation).
I don't know why you wanted so much to die since you played well and you are hard to read. You weren't in any real danger of being lynched until POE dictated it was only you or the Pope.
I'll admit I played a terrible game, but this is one thing I think I did well. Cyan already knew I was town from my meta; I just tried to show what he may be referring to. I think that the whole "self-meta isn't applicable" thing isn't as solid as it seems. Yes, in a world where everyone plays optimally and in their own self interest, it makes perfect sense that self-meta is invalid. But the simple fact is that most players aren't bothering to change their meta based on self-reflection unless they're playing a gimmick, and even then they're dodging the meta arguments completely instead of changing their playstyle. Every time I've tried to change my playstyle "because meta", I've gotten lynched. So I've just accepted that I play the way I play and stopped trying to change it.
That said, I should really listen to my team more; concentrate on my town reads rather than tunneling on my scum reads. That would make me a more useful player overall.
I think you are being very hard on yourself, if you reread the game with full knowledge you will notice you were largely correct about everything, yes you tunneled on Pope but after you burned out on him you overcame that quite nicely.
You were right about Eron(you almost saved him), Meg(you saved him imho), Pope(eventually), Cyan, me. I think you were pivotal to this win and I think you are the town MVP.
@DRey: If it were at all possible, I have less respect than ever for your capability at playing this game.
You really should stop saying such things, it does not achieve anything but create bad feelings everywhere. I never disrespected you before so please do the same to me.
You replaced in, acted like a giant tool, were wrong about everything that I can remember,
I don't remember being a fool, I was correct about the 4 servants being town, about Meg (I died bodyguarding him), about Eron. The only think I was wrong was Seppel, but I think he deserved it.
and then called my play into question when it was easy for you to do so because you could see the whole setup.
Far from the truth, if you reread the game you will probably notice this was probably your worst game ever. Note that I'm not saying you are a bad player, you aren't, but this showing was quite awful. You were wrong about everything dude. At least you were right about Zion, but I still do not understand how you could push Meg's lynch. I mean, he was scummy I agree but he was the only claimed investigative role AND was just one shot. There was no way the town had no investigative power. Also I don't know why you weren't pushing AI like a mofo after me and Eron flipped and you knew you were armored.
For all that you want to get on my case, the only lynch that I feel was poor was EtR. Seppel and Guardman got what they deserved. And if I weren't around at the end of the game, Zionite clearly would have gotten mislynched, and I don't think that the town would have pulled it out from there.
I 100% agree here, but if you got your own way Meg would've been lynched and Tar Nked and the town would not recover from there also.
I agree that the AI bus was bad. I didn't want to lynch AI, but I didn't think he would actually get lynched that day since the town was so bad =/ Again, I accept responsibility.
That was quite strange, the whole town onto Zion and you and Axel onto AI, had you both jumped any other wagon the lynch would probably not be AI but your credit would plummet. The truth is the situation was quite dire, you guys had little moving space because there were so many confirmed townies at that point it's not even funny.
What I actually wanted was for AI to bus me, but since we couldn't communicate, that was impossible.
There was no way for AI or anyone to bus you, your role was pro-town and confirmable, you only turned viable for a lynch after you failed to prove yourself, had AI tried to bus you with crap reason he probably would end up lynched even earlier.
And even then I was wrong about DRey. I was absolutely convinced that with the limited killing power we had seen that DRey and I couldn't both be town. :S
I want an explanation for that because to me your reason was "DRey claimed bodyguard as scum before so he's scum now", with such kind of reasoning, I will never be able to be town role anymore since I've claimed all kind of roles as scum already.
And if if you think a meager bodyguard and your semi-protective Joat is way too much protective power in a 16 player game you need to improve your setup gaming skills.
If I were scum, I would have killed Zionite and as fade would have said "derf I tried to out-WIFOM the scum because I thought they would kill RobRoy oh well".
I thought the very same thing in the spec chat. But an even better plan probably was to claim roleblock and NK Tar who was the biggest threat at that point.
I respect your right to make gambits. I do. It's just that your false claim absolutely got you mislynched.
Let me rephrase.
STOP FAILING AT FALSE CLAIMING YOUR ROLE AS TOWN. GAWD.
/barn
Had Gman not falseclaimed he could've survived, but by falseclaiming that outrageous stuff he just ensured his lynch. Not saying surviving as VT would be good, it would not since VT claims should be lynched 99% of the times anyway.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
1. I love false claiming when I don't have a good reason to tell the truth. Controlled Chaos and all that. Actually now that I think about it I probably lie more as town than scum.
2. I could claim vanilla and get lynched. Or I could either not get lynched or make an anti-town neutral slip up.
3. This is the first time I can honestly say I think my mislynch was bad. Usually when I strung up for being me it has actual reasons behind it, but the major points against me like refusing to claim until Iso did and for "overthinking" aren't scummy. It should've been pretty obvious that my wagon wasn't up to snuff when you had several people disagreeing why I was "scum" in the first place.
I respect your right to make gambits. I do. It's just that your false claim absolutely got you mislynched.
Let me rephrase.
STOP FAILING AT FALSE CLAIMING YOUR ROLE AS TOWN. GAWD.
I was lynched either way at that point. Vanilla town wouldn't have done anything. My claim at the very least could draw out an anti-town neutral without me having to really worry too much about a counter claim. And if I got out of being lynched then that's a plus.
@DRey: If my team had known that I was the missing Servant, they would've known that I should absolutely NOT be the last scum to survive. I figured my death would've helped the team more than my living, especially since people were more willing to write AI off as town than me, and I think PRP would've been a relatively easy mislynch to go 1-for-1.
But then it looked possible to actually survive until endgame, and I made the mistake of going for it.
I agree w/ FB on that, his team not knowing he was the Servant is a huge liability to overcome, especially when they chose him to submit the NK. It's a cool flavor dynamic(he's trapped in the Servant's quarters), but I would have tied it into one of the other scum(he has a telepathic bond with one of the magic users as long as they haven't used their burnout or something).
Okay, now that I'm at home I can write up some more detailed thoughts on the game and how it played out:
My team not knowing I was a Servant
I'm kind of unhappy with this, though my choice to stay hidden probably makes it not have a significant impact anyway. I had assumed that they at least knew - if you're going to follow through on flavor as a reason to tell the Servants how many there are, then it should also follow from flavor that the three Mafia would at least know that their co-conspirator (the one they entrusted with killing the king!) lives in the Servant Quarters.
Obviously, the roles were written up under the assumption that the mafia Servant would become publicly known anyway, but after receiving my question about hiding, I think DYH should have clarified to the scum that I was a Servant, especially since he did clarify other aspects of my role in the Mafia chat (that I had no abilities, knew their identities and character names but not their abilities, etc.) Withholding that information feels to me like he personally wanted the strategy to backfire (which it would probably would anyway even if he had told them)
My assumption that they knew mistakenly led me to interpret Axel's #551 ("Seems like there isn't an immediate need for any more Servants to say anything right now.") as a signal that the team was okay with me hiding and were going to be accounting for it in their strategy.
Protective roles
That is a LOT of protection for the town, with no visible compensation other than TMCT's burnout.
- Armored is essentially an unkillable townie. The mafia Servant design makes the Servant the natural assigned killer, and giving the servant a physical kill method means that the scum can't kill the Armored player. This is made particularly painful by the fact that the Servant can't communicate to his team *why* the kill failed (or even that he really did attempt to kill the assigned target), so the scum are left in the dark about that protection. (And the Armored guy isn't even susceptible to the town's vig)
- Bodyguards can almost be counted as equivalent to a doc, but the Retaliation burnout makes this more potent. This functions against both physical and magical kills, and like the Armored, the design weighs heavier against the Servant killing (burning out leaves the physical protection remaining).
- Illusionist can be thought of as half a doc, and this also function against both physical and magical kills.
- The Cleric also has a one-shot protection (from both physical and magical).
The number of protection roles makes it very likely that the scum will miss one of their kills at some point in the game. (I'm not sure if they were supposed to infer that from their access to a tough-guy kill or not.) This is not necessarily a bad thing, but given that the Servant will generally be doing the killing, it leaves them completely in the dark about what is going on. One possible solution would be to allow the Servant to be able to communicate a limited message to the rest of the team, maybe once at the end of night or perhaps once during the whole game (though this only solves the problem of information, not the problem of lots of protection to get through).
Axel's role
I agree with Axel that his role is very misleading with regard to the town's investigative capabilities. This is not necessarily wrong, but it definitely should be counted a minus for the scum team when balancing the game.
Townies falseclaiming
I really hope this game serves as an example of why townies shouldn't falseclaim. Guardman may have been lynched anyway even if he claimed vanilla, but making an obviously false claim makes it easier for scum to get away with joining the wagon since it's entirely justified at that point. Seppel's was even worse, which was so bad that he got 8 townies to vote him in a wagon that lasted less than 24 hours.
Meta
There were some seriously bad meta arguments going on in the early game. Iso read Meg as scum on meta; EtR was labeled as scum on meta; Cyan, Zionite, and Iso treated AI as town on meta; a few people called Axelrod as town on meta (despite his lurking); for the first time, I managed to get Cyan to misread me as town on meta; etc.
Between the D1 spam and the awful meta arguments (especially when people just say "have you read game X?" with no explanation), I briefly considered just replacing out on D2. The first two days of this game were probably my least favorite to reread out of all the games of my career. Seriously, if that kind of play is normal, I really think this site will have trouble attracting and retaining new players. (I know at least I'm going to be more choosy about who I play with from now on.)
As for Zionite specifically, I don't know him well enough to know whether he's a player with a very fixed playstyle. (Certainly not to the same extent as Cyan, for example.) Perhaps the late-game meta argument is valid for Zionite, but I can guarantee it's not valid for a lot of players.
Me killing RR
I also considered killing Zionite instead, but under the scenario where I would kill Zionite and then claim I used my ability on Meg to see if I could get him mislynched before going down (because why would scum lie about using his ability on Meg when he could've just lied about using it on Zionite?).
Obviously I should've just gone with the Iso kill and tried for the 1-for-1 with RR. If that went through, Axel would just need to get PRP lynched after me in order to get the win. In hindsight, this at least looks like it could've worked, as opposed to the RR route which we already saw play out.
I already alluded earlier to some of my reasons, but here's pretty much the list of all the things I miscalculated (these also partly apply to the decision to bus AI as well):
- Overestimated how easy it would be to get a Zionite lynch
- Underestimated how much the town was giving AE a pass
- Underestimated how much the town was willing to lynch Meg (since that still makes no sense to me)
- Overestimated the value of AI's lynch
- Underestimated how much effort Axel was putting into the game (and thus overestimating how necessary I was for the endgame)
- Underestimated how active Iso would be
I generally consider myself good at reading the flow of a game, so missing on all these counts qualifies this for the worst scum game of my career.
Other comments
RE: AI being pissed about his bus. I completely sympathize with that. I would be pissed if I were him too, especially when it was unnecessary and we didn't even pull it off right. (Sorry, AI, I'm not usually this bad as scum.)
RE: Not coming forward as a Servant. I already explained that in previous posts. That was my first big mistake in this game. If I had carefully read my PM and noticed that it specifically mentioned 5 servants, I may have changed gears when Iso dropped the hint about being in a group. Instead I plowed forward against Iso and it left me in a bad spot.
RE: Me being quiet. Part of this was indeed lurking (as I tend to do more as scum), part was due to being more invested in WWE (especially after all the aforementioned spam, meta arguments, and getting burned out on the D1 Iso fight), part was due to work schedule and time zone difference (it's also harder to appear active when you can only post during quiet times of the thread).
RE: My claim. As mentioned before, I was originally planning to get myself lynched (via an intentional "slip-up" that would out me as the 5th servant) before AI or Axel. When it came time to claim, I didn't expect to survive to endgame, so I didn't account for that. What I wanted was something that would at least be able to last 2 more days, and I settled on the Alchemist claim because it felt like something that could plausibly be in the game (I wasn't even aware of similarities to a role from a previous Amistarian game). AI recently mentioned the "Don't lie as mafia" philosophy in the spec chat, but if you know my game history you know I used to frequently claim vanilla as scum, and I felt that wasn't a very strong strategy so I went for something different this time. (I think in fact that this is the first time I have ever made a completely false claim as scum.)
Agreed with Axel's comment about the pain of replacements turning useless townies into analysts who are threats. Obviously there's no way to fix this, but sometimes you just want to vent when you've been selecting your kills to leave the useless guys around and that goes completely to waste.
Anyway, I'm sure there's more I've been wanting to say the entire game, but I think that's almost all of it.
Also the only thing that started my wagon was me declaring that I was going to be more firm in my reads (after having just lost a game to second-guessing myself). Cyan took that and ran with it.
Also, Cyan, what was up with your votehopping? You jumped more than I think I've ever jumped.
Also Fadeblue and AI should've been lynched much faster than they were but really I gave up fighting my mislynch because nobody was going to reread what I said.
HOWEVER I AM GLAD THE TOWN FOUND THE DOOR AT THE END OF THE GAME
@AI: I'm surprised that you didn't claim something other than Armored. Your role being 'Cyan's role but better' was a really glaring spot for you to be in.
In Guardman's defense, he was going to get lynched if he claimed Vanilla, so, might as well try to claim something else that A)might get by but B)isn't going to get another townie dead by counterclaiming.
Seppel has no such excuse. He was being Seppel, and finally got called to task for it. Maybe he'll learn something.
As for meta arguments. Meta prevented mislynches on Zionite and AE, at the very least, and was largely responsible for Axel getting lynched. Zero mislynches were based on meta. Meta is a completely fine tool. Very, very few players on here 'play to their meta'. Most people don't even try, presumably because they're not sure they can do it? I don't know. But meta is a completely valid tool.
The mislynch that I feel really bad about is EtR. I really wasn't suspicious of him before the mass-claim, and I got too hung up on 'your claimed actions don't make sense to me(and they still don't). I should have looked deeper at it and realized that, even though they didn't make sense as town, they didn't really make sense as scum either. Of course, he couldn't verify it, so there is that.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Meta didn't prevent Zionite's lynch; Axel being the better lynch did. You were the only one fully convinced by Zionite's meta. Without Axel I'm pretty sure Zionite could've been mislynched.
Meta should only be used as a supporting tool. There were so many bad meta arguments on D1 and D2 that if the town had really followed them, I think we would've won easily.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that one of the reasons I chose to keep myself alive instead of sacrificing was that I had no idea whether Axel would be putting in the endgame effort, given how much he had been lurking (along with his work situation).
You mean..the part that was correct, and kept the town RB from getting mislynched?
That he had demonstrated an intrinsic understanding of his past metagame ended any possible validity of a meta argument to support not lynching him.
If he knows his meta as well as HE HIMSELF SAID ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, he can easily manipulate his playstyle to use that. I know I would have, if I were Zionite and scum. This is why meta should not have been emphasised so heavily in his case.
I'll admit I played a terrible game, but this is one thing I think I did well. Cyan already knew I was town from my meta; I just tried to show what he may be referring to. I think that the whole "self-meta isn't applicable" thing isn't as solid as it seems. Yes, in a world where everyone plays optimally and in their own self interest, it makes perfect sense that self-meta is invalid. But the simple fact is that most players aren't bothering to change their meta based on self-reflection unless they're playing a gimmick, and even then they're dodging the meta arguments completely instead of changing their playstyle. Every time I've tried to change my playstyle "because meta", I've gotten lynched. So I've just accepted that I play the way I play and stopped trying to change it.
That said, I should really listen to my team more; concentrate on my town reads rather than tunneling on my scum reads. That would make me a more useful player overall.
Thanks for the game DYH; excellently crafted and hosted.
@DRey: If it were at all possible, I have less respect than ever for your capability at playing this game. You replaced in, acted like a giant tool, were wrong about everything that I can remember, and then called my play into question when it was easy for you to do so because you could see the whole setup. If I am ever in another game that you sign up for, I will immediately remove myself.
For all that you want to get on my case, the only lynch that I feel was poor was EtR. Seppel and Guardman got what they deserved. And if I weren't around at the end of the game, Zionite clearly would have gotten mislynched, and I don't think that the town would have pulled it out from there.
@DYH: Previous Amistaria games made it clear that you actively work against any kind of setup analysis, which pretty clearly includes flavor analysis. Megiddo's role is a prime example of this. You had to be trying to spite people that would want to analyze the setup when you decided that his rolename should be 'Cop', among a field of rolenames that otherwise went out of their way to obscure what the role did, and were not traditional mafia rolenames. I have a very hard time believing that this was purely because 'that was his job'. Maybe your desire to stifle setup analysis just runs really deep. :P(I think that referring to it is setup 'gaming' is really ****ty, incidentally..every setup is inevitably going to be analyzed unless it's Open/all Vanilla).
Also, to put it plainly(sorry Zionite), Zionite is a good enough player to be aware of his own meta. He is not a good enough player to able to PLAY to his own meta. There is a huge difference. And honestly like..have you seen Zionite be scum? Go read MTGS Mafia Redux Part 2. He is pretty bad at being scum.
Also, again to me for picking up that fadeblue was the only non-Servant-claimed active role without a Burnout.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll be back in it some time down the road but I am taking a break for now.
I'm sorry I rustled your jimmies, AI. Maybe we'll play together again in the future.
All-in-all, I think the lurking is what inevitably resulted in the scum team's demise. They had mislynch options in PRP, Zionite, and potentially AE, and didn't capitalize. The AI bus was the worst move they could have made, and then some.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Kind of correct. I can't get exponentially better within a short time frame; I'd only be able to improve slightly every game I'm scum. But the exact opposite has happened; I've gotten worse as scum over time. My early scum games went really well but some of the later ones I've gotten smoked, mostly due to bad play. Me being scum here would be making a lot of assumptions about how much attention I've been putting on this game in particular and counter-metaing myself with every post, but so much evidence from previous games proved to be contrary.
Yeah, it was. Some of my reaction was faked, obviously, but I was legitimately mad that you got away with that nonsense. We've basically set the precedence that "Iso can do whatever he wants and get away with it" which is obviously extremely dangerous.
THANK YOU. It's almost as if they hadn't even talked about it beforeha-oh yeah actually that's exactly what happened.
1. I love false claiming when I don't have a good reason to tell the truth. Controlled Chaos and all that. Actually now that I think about it I probably lie more as town than scum.
2. I could claim vanilla and get lynched. Or I could either not get lynched or make an anti-town neutral slip up.
3. This is the first time I can honestly say I think my mislynch was bad. Usually when I strung up for being me it has actual reasons behind it, but the major points against me like refusing to claim until Iso did and for "overthinking" aren't scummy. It should've been pretty obvious that my wagon wasn't up to snuff when you had several people disagreeing why I was "scum" in the first place.
What I actually wanted was for AI to bus me, but since we couldn't communicate, that was impossible.
I'm pretty sure I had Axel pegged when he tried to push me for pushing AI, but other than that my reads weren't too solid until I was at like, L-2. And even then I was wrong about DRey. I was absolutely convinced that with the limited killing power we had seen that DRey and I couldn't both be town. :S
For what it's worth, you make a very convincing outraged townie. Which is the only reason why I was reluctant to lynch you.
Obviously I'm fine with it. And hey, it worked out in the long run [for the town]. Plus I'm not intentionally making bad gambits and horrible falseclaims anymore - I've actually weaned a lot off of the lying (at least as town) recently.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
WHAT THE **** WAS UP WITH A ******* FLAVOR COP IN THIS GAME. WHAT THE **** IS MY "IMMUNITY" SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THAT?
I was FREAKING OUT when that got claimed and everyone was forced to "flavor" claim their ******* roles. WHAT THE **** can I say? I get that he's not going to get "negative vibes" or whatever the heck he gets from scum from me, but WHAT WILL HE GET? I had no freaking idea. All I can guess is that he gets some kind of "hint" about my character, and, like, it seemed my defining characteristic was seeking revenge for my mother or something. I was guessing he was going to see an image of a woman...or something? So, I just tried to make up something that could explain why he would be seeing a woman. And I was actually reasonably happy with what I made up. AND THEN TAR COME OUT AND SAYS THIS IS TOO SUSPICIOUSLY LIKE HIS OWN ROLE FLAVOR WHICH KPACA LIED ABOUT. WHAT THE ****.
It's bad enough that my "immunity" doesn't actually make me immune to a "flavor" Cop, but then, even when I "tainted" someone correctly, it didn't even stop the actual inspect ability. It was completely awful.
Well, at that point I think the only real chance was to let Meg be and hope that you (and others) continued to seek his death. Given how gung-ho you were to see him hang, this wasn't beyond the realm of possibility.
Sure, maybe you completely reverse yourself when Fade does not "restore" his burnout the next day, but, as you may have noticed, killing RR didn't exactly help Fade anyway.
I won't argue that if I was able to put more effort in I would have looked better. At least as good as PRP or AE. But from where I was sitting AI was a complete goner that day. I don't realistically think we could have got someone else.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Let me rephrase.
STOP FAILING AT FALSE CLAIMING YOUR ROLE AS TOWN. GAWD.
@Axel: In hindsight, I should have provided you, specifically, with a false claim - much as I did for your mother's character in the original Amistarian. He was going to see an innocent version of yourself; a sorceress, but with no ill intentions.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Not wanting to be that guy, Pope had little to no relevance to your lynch, I even loled when he said "I managed to get AI lynched and now I'm going to get Zion lynched", pretty amusing.
How claiming yet another protective role when me, Cyan, Seppel had already claimed is a flaw in the setup? Do you think a everyTownieIsProtectiveRole would be a nice setup? Had you not claimed Armored for no reason, the end could've been completely different since no one wanted to lynch you but your teamates.;)
/barn
I don't think meta prevented a Zion mislynch, you did by correctly reading him, and not only because of meta, everything about him screamed town imho, his actions, his posts, the intention, being a servant and meta pointed at him being town.
AE was confirmed because the 4 servants confirmed town block and Axel was just POE imho, before the day of his lynch he never was in any real danger.
I don't know why you wanted so much to die since you played well and you are hard to read. You weren't in any real danger of being lynched until POE dictated it was only you or the Pope.
I think you are being very hard on yourself, if you reread the game with full knowledge you will notice you were largely correct about everything, yes you tunneled on Pope but after you burned out on him you overcame that quite nicely.
You were right about Eron(you almost saved him), Meg(you saved him imho), Pope(eventually), Cyan, me. I think you were pivotal to this win and I think you are the town MVP.
You really should stop saying such things, it does not achieve anything but create bad feelings everywhere. I never disrespected you before so please do the same to me.
I don't remember being a fool, I was correct about the 4 servants being town, about Meg (I died bodyguarding him), about Eron. The only think I was wrong was Seppel, but I think he deserved it.
Far from the truth, if you reread the game you will probably notice this was probably your worst game ever. Note that I'm not saying you are a bad player, you aren't, but this showing was quite awful. You were wrong about everything dude. At least you were right about Zion, but I still do not understand how you could push Meg's lynch. I mean, he was scummy I agree but he was the only claimed investigative role AND was just one shot. There was no way the town had no investigative power. Also I don't know why you weren't pushing AI like a mofo after me and Eron flipped and you knew you were armored.
I 100% agree here, but if you got your own way Meg would've been lynched and Tar Nked and the town would not recover from there also.
That was quite strange, the whole town onto Zion and you and Axel onto AI, had you both jumped any other wagon the lynch would probably not be AI but your credit would plummet. The truth is the situation was quite dire, you guys had little moving space because there were so many confirmed townies at that point it's not even funny.
There was no way for AI or anyone to bus you, your role was pro-town and confirmable, you only turned viable for a lynch after you failed to prove yourself, had AI tried to bus you with crap reason he probably would end up lynched even earlier.
I want an explanation for that because to me your reason was "DRey claimed bodyguard as scum before so he's scum now", with such kind of reasoning, I will never be able to be town role anymore since I've claimed all kind of roles as scum already.
And if if you think a meager bodyguard and your semi-protective Joat is way too much protective power in a 16 player game you need to improve your setup gaming skills.
I thought the very same thing in the spec chat. But an even better plan probably was to claim roleblock and NK Tar who was the biggest threat at that point.
/barn
Had Gman not falseclaimed he could've survived, but by falseclaiming that outrageous stuff he just ensured his lynch. Not saying surviving as VT would be good, it would not since VT claims should be lynched 99% of the times anyway.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I was lynched either way at that point. Vanilla town wouldn't have done anything. My claim at the very least could draw out an anti-town neutral without me having to really worry too much about a counter claim. And if I got out of being lynched then that's a plus.
But then it looked possible to actually survive until endgame, and I made the mistake of going for it.
My team not knowing I was a Servant
I'm kind of unhappy with this, though my choice to stay hidden probably makes it not have a significant impact anyway. I had assumed that they at least knew - if you're going to follow through on flavor as a reason to tell the Servants how many there are, then it should also follow from flavor that the three Mafia would at least know that their co-conspirator (the one they entrusted with killing the king!) lives in the Servant Quarters.
Obviously, the roles were written up under the assumption that the mafia Servant would become publicly known anyway, but after receiving my question about hiding, I think DYH should have clarified to the scum that I was a Servant, especially since he did clarify other aspects of my role in the Mafia chat (that I had no abilities, knew their identities and character names but not their abilities, etc.) Withholding that information feels to me like he personally wanted the strategy to backfire (which it would probably would anyway even if he had told them)
My assumption that they knew mistakenly led me to interpret Axel's #551 ("Seems like there isn't an immediate need for any more Servants to say anything right now.") as a signal that the team was okay with me hiding and were going to be accounting for it in their strategy.
Protective roles
That is a LOT of protection for the town, with no visible compensation other than TMCT's burnout.
- Armored is essentially an unkillable townie. The mafia Servant design makes the Servant the natural assigned killer, and giving the servant a physical kill method means that the scum can't kill the Armored player. This is made particularly painful by the fact that the Servant can't communicate to his team *why* the kill failed (or even that he really did attempt to kill the assigned target), so the scum are left in the dark about that protection. (And the Armored guy isn't even susceptible to the town's vig)
- Bodyguards can almost be counted as equivalent to a doc, but the Retaliation burnout makes this more potent. This functions against both physical and magical kills, and like the Armored, the design weighs heavier against the Servant killing (burning out leaves the physical protection remaining).
- Illusionist can be thought of as half a doc, and this also function against both physical and magical kills.
- The Cleric also has a one-shot protection (from both physical and magical).
The number of protection roles makes it very likely that the scum will miss one of their kills at some point in the game. (I'm not sure if they were supposed to infer that from their access to a tough-guy kill or not.) This is not necessarily a bad thing, but given that the Servant will generally be doing the killing, it leaves them completely in the dark about what is going on. One possible solution would be to allow the Servant to be able to communicate a limited message to the rest of the team, maybe once at the end of night or perhaps once during the whole game (though this only solves the problem of information, not the problem of lots of protection to get through).
Axel's role
I agree with Axel that his role is very misleading with regard to the town's investigative capabilities. This is not necessarily wrong, but it definitely should be counted a minus for the scum team when balancing the game.
Townies falseclaiming
I really hope this game serves as an example of why townies shouldn't falseclaim. Guardman may have been lynched anyway even if he claimed vanilla, but making an obviously false claim makes it easier for scum to get away with joining the wagon since it's entirely justified at that point. Seppel's was even worse, which was so bad that he got 8 townies to vote him in a wagon that lasted less than 24 hours.
Meta
There were some seriously bad meta arguments going on in the early game. Iso read Meg as scum on meta; EtR was labeled as scum on meta; Cyan, Zionite, and Iso treated AI as town on meta; a few people called Axelrod as town on meta (despite his lurking); for the first time, I managed to get Cyan to misread me as town on meta; etc.
Between the D1 spam and the awful meta arguments (especially when people just say "have you read game X?" with no explanation), I briefly considered just replacing out on D2. The first two days of this game were probably my least favorite to reread out of all the games of my career. Seriously, if that kind of play is normal, I really think this site will have trouble attracting and retaining new players. (I know at least I'm going to be more choosy about who I play with from now on.)
As for Zionite specifically, I don't know him well enough to know whether he's a player with a very fixed playstyle. (Certainly not to the same extent as Cyan, for example.) Perhaps the late-game meta argument is valid for Zionite, but I can guarantee it's not valid for a lot of players.
Me killing RR
I also considered killing Zionite instead, but under the scenario where I would kill Zionite and then claim I used my ability on Meg to see if I could get him mislynched before going down (because why would scum lie about using his ability on Meg when he could've just lied about using it on Zionite?).
Obviously I should've just gone with the Iso kill and tried for the 1-for-1 with RR. If that went through, Axel would just need to get PRP lynched after me in order to get the win. In hindsight, this at least looks like it could've worked, as opposed to the RR route which we already saw play out.
I already alluded earlier to some of my reasons, but here's pretty much the list of all the things I miscalculated (these also partly apply to the decision to bus AI as well):
- Overestimated how easy it would be to get a Zionite lynch
- Underestimated how much the town was giving AE a pass
- Underestimated how much the town was willing to lynch Meg (since that still makes no sense to me)
- Overestimated the value of AI's lynch
- Underestimated how much effort Axel was putting into the game (and thus overestimating how necessary I was for the endgame)
- Underestimated how active Iso would be
I generally consider myself good at reading the flow of a game, so missing on all these counts qualifies this for the worst scum game of my career.
Other comments
RE: AI being pissed about his bus. I completely sympathize with that. I would be pissed if I were him too, especially when it was unnecessary and we didn't even pull it off right. (Sorry, AI, I'm not usually this bad as scum.)
RE: Not coming forward as a Servant. I already explained that in previous posts. That was my first big mistake in this game. If I had carefully read my PM and noticed that it specifically mentioned 5 servants, I may have changed gears when Iso dropped the hint about being in a group. Instead I plowed forward against Iso and it left me in a bad spot.
RE: Me being quiet. Part of this was indeed lurking (as I tend to do more as scum), part was due to being more invested in WWE (especially after all the aforementioned spam, meta arguments, and getting burned out on the D1 Iso fight), part was due to work schedule and time zone difference (it's also harder to appear active when you can only post during quiet times of the thread).
RE: My claim. As mentioned before, I was originally planning to get myself lynched (via an intentional "slip-up" that would out me as the 5th servant) before AI or Axel. When it came time to claim, I didn't expect to survive to endgame, so I didn't account for that. What I wanted was something that would at least be able to last 2 more days, and I settled on the Alchemist claim because it felt like something that could plausibly be in the game (I wasn't even aware of similarities to a role from a previous Amistarian game). AI recently mentioned the "Don't lie as mafia" philosophy in the spec chat, but if you know my game history you know I used to frequently claim vanilla as scum, and I felt that wasn't a very strong strategy so I went for something different this time. (I think in fact that this is the first time I have ever made a completely false claim as scum.)
Agreed with Axel's comment about the pain of replacements turning useless townies into analysts who are threats. Obviously there's no way to fix this, but sometimes you just want to vent when you've been selecting your kills to leave the useless guys around and that goes completely to waste.
Anyway, I'm sure there's more I've been wanting to say the entire game, but I think that's almost all of it.
Also the only thing that started my wagon was me declaring that I was going to be more firm in my reads (after having just lost a game to second-guessing myself). Cyan took that and ran with it.
Also, Cyan, what was up with your votehopping? You jumped more than I think I've ever jumped.
Also Fadeblue and AI should've been lynched much faster than they were but really I gave up fighting my mislynch because nobody was going to reread what I said.
HOWEVER I AM GLAD THE TOWN FOUND THE DOOR AT THE END OF THE GAME