Generic, I'm not going to lie, your posts are all over the place. You seem to get hung up on things that I don't think are scummy. I just don't feel that behavior is necessarily scummy, and I think there are better people to investigate out there. (If you had continued the huge wall of texts, I would've thought you and/or Karn were scum trying to distract from scumhunting, but you both have stopped.)
1) Your first answer doesn't answer my first question. You previously had said that you provided your extra content because others weren't satisfied with your initial comments. Now you're glossing over that and saying that people reacted because of your extra content. While this is true (I find that scum tend to introduce an alternate argument more often than town to cover their bases in case they need to jump ship), it's unrelated to the question I actually asked here.
Please provide evidence where I said that, because as far as im aware that’s not true. Prove me wrong by all means, otherwise you are lying.
The question that I posed was referencing the exact text quoted right before the question.
So your response to my post was to point to the post where you base your entire case, then two posts where i am having to clarify the same points BECAUSE there was a big deal made of me giving a fuller answer than just leaving it at the suspicious elements (basically the arguement is i should have twisted the scenario to make them look bad rather than acknowledge redeeming subsequent posts?) and then provide a post to vitek that in no way clears him. If anything i put more suspicion his way
The bolded part is what I was referring to because your syntax there is horribly misleading. I thought you were saying that you felt the need to provide more information because your previous posts were insufficient, which is a completely reasonable way to parse that text (although wrong, as I now see).
I've read what you wrote. I just don't feel like going into a post wall war with you like Sir Karn did. In Eeveelution Mafia, I did the same thing with The Most Curious Thing D1. He attacked me and we got into a huge back and forth for a while, and it ended with everyone, including him, thinking I was town (I was mafia). My towniness wasn't questioned again until the last day (except in passing by DRey as something he was worried about). And I don't find the content particularly compelling either. If anyone else wants/needs specifics, let me know.
So because you chose to only post lots of content to look town rather than defend yourself I must be doing the same? Thankfullycythare im not you.
Not saying you must be doing the same, but I'm saying that's the sense I'm getting. You are including a lot of OMGUSing and mudslinging with your text, and rather than concisely stating your points, you're stream of consciousnessing it, which comes across to me as puffing your chest, not unlike I had done. I referenced that previous game for context. I am aware that you are not me, but that doesn't mean you're not doing something similar.
"Full analysis" to you = "hedging your bets" to me. In my previous experience, town players don't provide both sides of an argument. They provide pressure and questions and others provide the other side of the argument. Sometimes, the first player realizes he or she is incorrect and changes their mind. Scum on the other hand, feign pressure and questions, and often build in an alternative argument already (since they know the line of questioning is inaccurate unless they're bussing), and then, a while later, when questioned, they can point back and say "see, but I was also considering this other option".
TL;DR: Yes. I would rather see someone spin a "skewed image" (READ: committed argument), because the rest is either something someone can dig up in their defense or is speculation. Providing outs to someone when you're just starting analysis isn't helpful. I view it in a similar vein to answering questions that are directed at someone else. They can read it and latch onto that and then you don't get the reaction that you otherwise would have.
So you have just stated here that you consider someone town if they only give a one sided analysis of someone.
Ilove how im the scummy one based on logic like this. Everyone thinks that way then I take it, if so good luck finding scum tells.
You're the one that presented a binary list of choices. I can understand not having complete confidence in your early reads, but there's a difference between a lack of confidence and providing counterarguments to yourself.
In multiple previous games, "fair minded" analysis has come from scum. It's a legitimate concern. It's not about an easy lynch, it's about fence-sitting.
Yet conveniently you miss out that I was also pointing to a case against vitek at the time and voting for Tom. So fence sitting is basically bull****.
I didn't miss it, but it's tangential to this issue.
OH, well I guess I was wrong then! If you say you aren’t scum, then it must be true…
It doesn't make it true because I said it, but that was in response to the end of one of your posts talking about when I'm "proven scum".
@LnGrrrR
There weren't that many posts to review, given this was before the walls of text. I saw what Sir Karn posted, went back to read them, and did indeed change my mind.
There's nothing town about Generic's play. Plus if he flips scum we'll get some good info about other players. (Cythare and Sir Karn, for instance, will likely be town.) Unvote; Vote: Generic
This is the third member of the karn/cythare scum team.
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@ Generic: playing the 'o woe is me' card isn't going to get you any sympathy. There are far more constructive posts you could be making than making counter-posts to every single detail of every single attack played against you.
Speaking of which, You really like to put words in people's mouths or twist posts to read a certain way in your favor. I really don't like that.
There's nothing town about Generic's play. Plus if he flips scum we'll get some good info about other players. (Cythare and Sir Karn, for instance, will likely be town.) Unvote; Vote: Generic
This is the third member of the karn/cythare scum team.
As annoying as Generic is and I wouldn't mind seeing him lynched anyway, if he is town then this could actually make a lot of sense, though I'd still be shaky on Cythare. It's an easy attack and all three of them are voting for him. I'm going to have to re-read Cythare yet again from LnGrrrR's case because I'm still shaking my head, but I'm willing to give it another go.
If Generic is scum then at least one of these is also scum for driving the aforementioned Vengabus.
I'm more geared toward that second theory though.
So Condoms if Generic flips scum who do you think is the primary bus driver here?
Cows produce milk. Humans produce milk also. In fact mammals in general produce milk. Milk milk milk.
...Okay fine, I'll get back to re-reading...
yah nah. Finding it hard to agree with LnGrrrR's stance here. Cythare said that there were a couple of valid points (sure) but it's mostly just... useless mudslinging and constant twisting and complaining.
Cos of I give that I will have to be very fast out the blocks in night phase, depending on whether you allow action to go through even if you are about to get night killed here.
Single shot vig, something to do with aggressive reaction to unwanted attention... Ironic given RL bleeding through to this game. I have rereading some of my posts and while I stand by the CONTENT I realise I have put a little too much emotion behind it. Very angry.
Well it's a learning curve for next time since I'm at L-2.
Please shoot Karn tonight.
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I still don't think Generic is playing in pro-town way. Frirst his way of accusing people without engaging in cause. Then he got really dismissive about it. Meanwhile there was his vote for Tom, post after buddying with him and being accused of it. Most of his defense is just words, without any real defense. Plus he is OMGUSing left and right.
I too disagree about Karn vs. Generic being town-town battle.
Unvote,Vote Generic
Btw. my remark about SirKarn being too wet for my liking that was attributed to someone else (Cythare?) before by Generic was just comment on his interesting avatar. I think that the attempt to use it as part of Cythare's u-turn on Generic and SirKarn is quite a big grasping for straws.
Two people I am feeling best about are SirKarn and Teh Jey.
Few other persons who piqued my interest is LnGrrR, for things mentioned before (disinterest and today attempt to shift attention to another wagon) and Klevenklop for his placing Condoms as second most scummy player after acknowledging other peoples mention that he plays like this all the time.
Ugh, I caught up now with role claim. Unvote. I am not too convinced by Generic's claim, still think he is probably scum and doesn't like the way how it was presented, but we could perhaps confirm it somehow, right?
Hmm, on the other side, I don't believe him, so best way to confirm it would be through lynch. Vote Generic.
This just looks weird. Why the double unvote/vote?
I still don't think Generic is playing in pro-town way. Frirst his way of accusing people without engaging in cause. Then he got really dismissive about it. Meanwhile there was his vote for Tom, post after buddying with him and being accused of it. Most of his defense is just words, without any real defense. Plus he is OMGUSing left and right.
I too disagree about Karn vs. Generic being town-town battle.
Unvote,Vote Generic
Btw. my remark about SirKarn being too wet for my liking that was attributed to someone else (Cythare?) before by Generic was just comment on his interesting avatar. I think that the attempt to use it as part of Cythare's u-turn on Generic and SirKarn is quite a big grasping for straws.
Two people I am feeling best about are SirKarn and Teh Jey.
Few other persons who piqued my interest is LnGrrR, for things mentioned before (disinterest and today attempt to shift attention to another wagon) and Klevenklop for his placing Condoms as second most scummy player after acknowledging other peoples mention that he plays like this all the time.
Ugh, I caught up now with role claim. Unvote. I am not too convinced by Generic's claim, still think he is probably scum and doesn't like the way how it was presented, but we could perhaps confirm it somehow, right?
Hmm, on the other side, I don't believe him, so best way to confirm it would be through lynch. Vote Generic.
This just looks weird. Why the double unvote/vote?
Its not any less compelling than the reasons to lynch generic.
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Its not any less compelling than the reasons to lynch generic.
I think lynching Generic first would shine a better light on things than Cythare. I agree that both cases are like 'wtf' but I highly doubt Generic would be saying half the things he's spewed about now if he wasn't scum trying to pull off an angry town mindset. It doesn't line up.
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
Cases have been built, questions have been asked, and posts have been analyzed. Lynch is the next logical step.
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
Cases have been built, questions have been asked, and posts have been analyzed. Lynch is the next logical step.
Why are you trying to cram the lynch down our throat when only like five IRL days have passed?
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
Cases have been built, questions have been asked, and posts have been analyzed. Lynch is the next logical step.
Why are you trying to cram the lynch down our throat when only like five IRL days have passed?
...Well that escalated quickly? I was hoping for feedback and I got some, and then this response seems unnecessary.
Also I totally wrecked that final and now I'm going to celebrate with some good ol' Banjo Kazooie on this nifty little N64 I brought up from home <3 =D
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
Cases have been built, questions have been asked, and posts have been analyzed. Lynch is the next logical step.
Why are you trying to cram the lynch down our throat when only like five IRL days have passed?
If you don't like my food, don't eat it. I won't force it down your throat. I'm just confident in my vote. I was responding to Teh JeY since he was acting like cases/questions/analyzing haven't happened, when they all have.
Can't you see that Generic is the top lynch right now?
You're going to have to provide more analysis than your trademark one liners. I know that you overvalue content that can be grabbed from your cryptic posts, but stuff like this makes me realize why we didn't lynch Audinho in The Office.
Let's start. I'm a n00b and I don't understand why you think swishh is the third member of your hypothetical scum team. Can you please explain why?
...Well that escalated quickly? I was hoping for feedback and I got some, and then this response seems unnecessary.
Also I totally wrecked that final and now I'm going to celebrate with some good ol' Banjo Kazooie on this nifty little N64 I brought up from home <3 =D
Why do you think my question is "unnecessary"?
Also, I request an unvote from one of you who is voting Generic. Leaving him at L-1 seems like a potentially dangerous play since someone could *cough, cough* accidentally hammer him.
I think TeH is scummy because he didn't unvote when Generic claimed one shot vig. His/her posts don't exactly inspire me as well.
@Vitek: Why don't you believe it? It's easily provable.
I have been bitten by this just recently in one of my off site games (where scum claimed doc and rode to endgame with me never suspecting him) but in this case, the claim is provable. It's possible that the scum have a roleblocker, though.
Reading back, it feels awkward that Generic had a big fight with Sir Karn. If I was vig, I would have just skipped the quote war and just shoot Sir Karn N1.
For TeH, I don't like the "I should've been more specific, I feel like there were lame cases and now we're moving onto a lynch from bleh material."
If he was town, then I think he would actually make cases rather than bemoan them. Also, why does he think that the case on Generic is from "bleh material"? That would signify an unvote from me. In fact, if I think that a case is based off of shaky material, I wouldn't even vote that person.
Tom and Cythare can vouch for this, but I have a thing with my name. My name is JeY. "Teh" Is not a name. "Teh" Does not have a capital 'h'. My username is "Teh JeY" because "The JeY" just sounds boring. Do not call me 'Teh'. Do not shorten my name to 'TJ' because my name isn't 'TJ', that's my friend's name. My name is JeY.
Please be the slightest bit respectful and actually -read- the name at the head of my posts before using it. Thank you. Once is an honest mistake, that's fair. By the 5th time I have to make this explanation of course I'm going to sound angry. I consider misrepresenting my name to be blatant disrespect even if you didn't intend it, this is your warning.
The capital 'y' is negligible, all lowercase is acceptable (teh jey), but otherwise just call me JeY. "Vote: JeY" counts (I'm pretty sure, it did last time).
It's funny you say that. Your vote is on Generic, who is L-1. If you're not satisfied, then unvote and start making some cases.
I made a case that I was fine with even preferred a Generic lynch regardless at this point, even if I am disappointed that we're moving to a lynch so early (or what seems like early). Maybe I didn't say that explicitly before but I am now.
Also, I request an unvote from one of you who is voting Generic. Leaving him at L-1 seems like a potentially dangerous play since someone could *cough, cough* accidentally hammer him.
I think TeH is scummy because he didn't unvote when Generic claimed one shot vig. His/her posts don't exactly inspire me as well.
"trying to cram the lynch down our throat" is a loaded phrase, when Sir Karn wasn't even being the least bit aggressive about his response to me as you make it out to be with that phrasing.
Speaking of bad phrasing, I'm the perfect example. I thought I made it pretty clear that I was content with seeing a Generic lynch as it would tell us a decent bit more, but apparently I didn't (for the second time however I am now). Even with 'bleh' material I'm -really- okay with lynching Generic. That's why I haven't unvoted and jumped back into the pond for another round of 'sink the sailboat'.
Also with Vitek unvoting I don't feel any urge to remove my vote any time soon with him no longer being L-1.
Ribbit.
Also I'm not making cases because I'm still bad at this game and have no clue where to go next, but now I've caused a case against me! Goody. My case is still against Generic - the way that his voice feels through his posts speaks angry scum more than frustrated town.
There's nothing town about Generic's play. Plus if he flips scum we'll get some good info about other players. (Cythare and Sir Karn, for instance, will likely be town.) Unvote; Vote: Generic
This is the third member of the karn/cythare scum team.
So if you've got the scum team down pat, and later say you dislike the reasoning behind the Generic case, why do you want him to claim?
Reading back, it feels awkward that Generic had a big fight with Sir Karn. If I was vig, I would have just skipped the quote war and just shoot Sir Karn N1.
This. It all seems odd. However his claim is provable, so unvote
-----------
Vote: Swishh
He's actively lurking. We are a couple hundred posts in and all he's done is give a couple shaky opinions and a vote. Swishh normally posts a lot in his town games.
Tom and Cythare can vouch for this, but I have a thing with my name. My name is JeY. "Teh" Is not a name. "Teh" Does not have a capital 'h'. My username is "Teh JeY" because "The JeY" just sounds boring. Do not call me 'Teh'. Do not shorten my name to 'TJ' because my name isn't 'TJ', that's my friend's name. My name is JeY.
Please be the slightest bit respectful and actually -read- the name at the head of my posts before using it. Thank you. Once is an honest mistake, that's fair. By the 5th time I have to make this explanation of course I'm going to sound angry. I consider misrepresenting my name to be blatant disrespect even if you didn't intend it, this is your warning.
The capital 'y' is negligible, all lowercase is acceptable (teh jey), but otherwise just call me JeY. "Vote: JeY" counts (I'm pretty sure, it did last time).
[And I'm a girl, regarding pronouns.]
Fair enough, JeY.
What do you think about Generic's vig claim?
@Cythare: Hm. I thought your wall-of-text was responding to LnGrrrR, but as it turns out it's not.
Thank you.
Reading back, it feels awkward that Generic had a big fight with Sir Karn. If I was vig, I would have just skipped the quote war and just shoot Sir Karn N1.
Its a fair comment, but i have two of them i am certain is town, and by sitting back and letting sir karn lie and twist my words im left in a position similar to now where im lynched before i get to use my ability at all, so of course im going to defend myself even if i end up back in this position day 2.
Why would you worry about being lynched if you are a PR? Once you claim people would start to unvote you, as we are doing now. It's provable.
All you've accomplished by defending yourself with so many text walls is make people reluctant to play the game (and incriminate yourself further). If you believe karn is lying or misreping you, why not just say that in a sentence or two here and there?
Because now i know i will need to use it tonight or im either dead night 1 or dead day 2.
Also you never would have been lynched before the claim. It's policy to wait at L-2 for the claim and then either proceed or unvote. But I'm pretty sure you knew that.
Shooting ASAP is almost always best IMO because then we have more confirmed alignments to analyze D2. Keep in mind that any suggestions people make for your shot could be suggestions coming from mafia.
Ok, so I did a quick reread, and I think I'm ok with this.
VOTE CYTHARE
She felt a lot scummier to me earlier than she does now, but Generic has been all over the place so it could be a reason why her defense is sounding better.[/quote]
First off, don't like the "I think I'm okay with this" language, but that's just a minor note. I'm also sounding better because I have horrible early D1 play. It's a recurring problem regardless of alignment.
Post 61: States she was skeptical on Klevenklop but never actually posted to that effect, and her parenthetical comment is a way to say "She's probably noob BUT she might not be because of this one corner case...". Feels waffly to me. Also, I think she misreps Vitek. It was "soon into RVS", but that doesn't mean Vitek thought EVERY post was RVS at the time. Vitek is mainly describing why he thinks Generic jumped too hard on both of them.
That wasn't the take away message (regarding Klevenklop). I was stating that I assumed that Klevenklop was being truthful about being new, but brought up a corner case that didn't pan out well for anecdotal reasons. If we assume Klevenklop is new, then it's reasonable to assume she didn't know about RVS.
I see what you're saying re:Vitek, though. He said it was "soon into RVS", which read as dismissive to me (this is also the first thing that made him look scummy to me). However, I think I'm just having reading comprehension issues, because what I saw before isn't what I'm seeing now. Because of this, Vitek is no longer on my scum team. Thanks for clearing this up! Now I feel like an idiot.
Post 79: Says she noted the response to Kleven by Proph was questionable, but I didn't see that post anywhere. Says she likes Generic's points and calls them "valid". Again says Vitek said "it was just RVS" when he didn't (in my eyes).
Post 83: Again says she can see Generic's PoV.
The "note" was related to post 61, in my response to Vitek, because in my misunderstanding of him, I thought he was trying to dismiss Proph's response, which I noted should not be disregarded. I've already accepted that I misread Vitek's note.
Post 90: Just seven posts later, she pretty much /barns Sir Karn with the explanation that she "Hadn't picked up on the fence sitting". Then she says, "I did notice the forced nature of his responses, as well as the quick followup that Vitek noted", yes she never mentioned it in any of her posts, and said that she still saw Generic's POV well after Vitek's post. Then she mentions that she reread, which feels awkward to me. I would think the first comment would be "After seeing Sir Karn's votes, I reread..." etc etc and not just throw it at the back of her comment. Could just be how I would do it though.
I have already addressed this point with others, but since it's the sticking point, I'll do it again. I had not picked up on the fence sitting before, because I had only picked up on the one side of his arguments at the time. I did a quick reread of Generic's posts afterwards, and did see what Sir Karn had pointed out, so I changed my vote. And you're right, I didn't document all of my notes in the thread.
I didn't think about how I was writing the comment. That's just my train of thought.
Post 114: Brings up that her first actual vote was on Generic, but as far as I can see Generic never answered her questions, and she hasn't followed up by asking Generic to answer them.
(Note: Generic has the same thoughts that I have on post 116.)
What does him not answering my questions have to do with my vote being real? I didn't follow up with the questions at that point because I was out for the night. I happened to check at a couple points when I drunkenly lashed out about being called a n00b, but when I came back the next day, I got sidetracked by the wall of text war. I care less about my questions remaining unanswered (which lost relevance by the next day) at this point, given everything else that went on between Sir Karn and Generic.
Post 127: Still feels that Vitek and Proph are scum, even though Vitek answered her question. Tries to say she used Generic for reference, and that "some of the things you were saying made sense", but doesn't share what those things are.
My Vitek = scum was based on the incorrect premise from before. And you're right, I didn't share what they were. I didn't feel it was necessary at the time.
Post 156: Cythare says that Generic's early content was convincing and that she thought his argument had merit. Gets defensive, saying "Does that mean when I reread it, I'm not allowed to change my mind." Then says Generic has too much counter-explanation in posts 44 and 47. Has some good counter-arguments to Generic. This quote is interesting: "Loose comment wasn't mine, so your argument here is a swing and a miss. I noted that comment before I went back based on Sir Karn's note. So what? Your entire argument here is based on misattribution of a quote. And I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia. If scum only used false arguments, they would stick out like a sore thumb. Just because I like part of your logic doesn't mean I think you're town."
I'm curious what you mean by "interesting" here. I've always heard it said that "interesting" is a scummy word, because it points something out in a noncommittal way. What about it is interesting, and how is it interesting to you?
What it comes down to for me is: Do you believe that Cythare went from thinking Generic made sense, to that he's scum, in the space of 10 posts or so? My gut tells me no.
Given the amount of content there was to review, is it really that hard to believe that I could change my mind when rereading, especially considering how many other things I've misread this game already?
I'm curious what you mean by "interesting" here. I've always heard it said that "interesting" is a scummy word, because it points something out in a noncommittal way. What about it is interesting, and how is it interesting to you?
Which is referring to me saying, [This quote is interesting: "Loose comment wasn't mine, so your argument here is a swing and a miss. I noted that comment before I went back based on Sir Karn's note. So what? Your entire argument here is based on misattribution of a quote. And I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia. If scum only used false arguments, they would stick out like a sore thumb. Just because I like part of your logic doesn't mean I think you're town."]
I think the "I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia." it sounds scummy to me. You didn't say, "I have no problem rereading an argument and changing my mind" or something to that effect, which is what I would expect a townie to say. I could understand if we were in D2/D3, and someone caught a slip, posted it, and the town went "A-ha! He must be scum!" That would be a valid reason for flipping a position. I just don't think the "fence-sitting" is that much of an "A-ha" catch, but you latched onto it anyway as an excuse to jump on Generic's wagon and/or bus him.
Given the amount of content there was to review, is it really that hard to believe that I could change my mind when rereading, especially considering how many other things I've misread this game already?
Not a fan of the "built-in" excuse either. This, along with your "I have bad play early D1" seems to try and excuse any scummy actions. Again, if you did change your mind, as townie I'd at least expect to see some sort of analysis posted during/about your reread, rather than a semi-naked /barn.
I'm curious what you mean by "interesting" here. I've always heard it said that "interesting" is a scummy word, because it points something out in a noncommittal way. What about it is interesting, and how is it interesting to you?
Which is referring to me saying, [This quote is interesting: "Loose comment wasn't mine, so your argument here is a swing and a miss. I noted that comment before I went back based on Sir Karn's note. So what? Your entire argument here is based on misattribution of a quote. And I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia. If scum only used false arguments, they would stick out like a sore thumb. Just because I like part of your logic doesn't mean I think you're town."]
I think the "I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia." it sounds scummy to me. You didn't say, "I have no problem rereading an argument and changing my mind" or something to that effect, which is what I would expect a townie to say. I could understand if we were in D2/D3, and someone caught a slip, posted it, and the town went "A-ha! He must be scum!" That would be a valid reason for flipping a position. I just don't think the "fence-sitting" is that much of an "A-ha" catch, but you latched onto it anyway as an excuse to jump on Generic's wagon and/or bus him.
Given the amount of content there was to review, is it really that hard to believe that I could change my mind when rereading, especially considering how many other things I've misread this game already?
Not a fan of the "built-in" excuse either. This, along with your "I have bad play early D1" seems to try and excuse any scummy actions. Again, if you did change your mind, as townie I'd at least expect to see some sort of analysis posted during/about your reread, rather than a semi-naked /barn.
Fair enough. I stand by my statement "I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia", though. The difference between that and your wording of how you would expect it to be written is that I changed my mind on Generic, but I still think that some of the stuff he said is relevant. That's the point I was trying to make there. Just saying "I have no problem rereading an argument and changing my mind" makes it seem like I've decided to totally disregard his previous posts, which I had already agreed with. And, as I've already said, I still think there is worthwhile insight/information there. I just don't think it's coming from a town perspective.
@Cythare: Hm. I thought your wall-of-text was responding to LnGrrrR, but as it turns out it's not.
Can you please respond to his case?
Was going to post my thoughts regardless, once I got out of work (which is now! yay!)
The vig claim is dangerous in my opinion. Yes, if he's town and we have a guaranteed scum he can shoot it's an amazing thing but that's best case scenario. Let's go over -all- scenarios.
1: Generic is scum. Regardless if he's actually a vig, this will only result in Town dying, then we probably lynch him the next day. -1 town, -1 scum.
2: Generic is town. We can have him shoot someone we believe is scum, but there are still odds that he hits town (even if less likely with educated opinions). Then we probably lynch him the next day, -2 town, or possibly -1 town -1 scum. This ignores the best case scenario I already presented.
3: Generic is town or scum and we don't lynch him the next day: He could still possibly shoot other town but it would be a one and done, and this is really bad if he's still scum (especially scum with a more re-usable PR). Plus he could still be shot by scum so another -2 Town or -1 town -1 scum.
4: Lynch Generic tonight: -1 town OR -1 scum, would give insight on some other players. Well, I guess that's not fair to say, Generic's flip would give insight regardless but this way would just be the least risky insight.
All of these cases point in favor of town dying needlessly. If we just lynch Generic and he happens to be town, there's no potential misfire (I'm aware we also lose the chance to shoot potential scum but keyword potential) and multiple town don't die. If he's scum, well that just worked out completely in our favor, didn't it?
Lynching Generic would of course be a gamble in itself but we probably don't need to gamble further by giving him a night.
[Also Generic's posts have been merely distractions from pursuing anything decent early, though they seem to be getting better now]
{Aside, going my other job soon + working on take-home final, going to be on not tonight and then less until Thursday evening}
I think I covered what could happen but if anyone has any possible outcomes I missed feel free to chime in. I don't count negligible differences, these are the main squeezes.
1: Generic is scum. Regardless if he's actually a vig, this will only result in Town dying, then we probably lynch him the next day. -1 town, -1 scum.
2: Generic is town. We can have him shoot someone we believe is scum, but there are still odds that he hits town (even if less likely with educated opinions). Then we probably lynch him the next day, -2 town, or possibly -1 town -1 scum. This ignores the best case scenario I already presented.
3: Generic is town or scum and we don't lynch him the next day: He could still possibly shoot other town but it would be a one and done, and this is really bad if he's still scum (especially scum with a more re-usable PR). Plus he could still be shot by scum so another -2 Town or -1 town -1 scum.
4: Lynch Generic tonight: -1 town OR -1 scum, would give insight on some other players. Well, I guess that's not fair to say, Generic's flip would give insight regardless but this way would just be the least risky insight.
All of these cases point in favor of town dying needlessly. If we just lynch Generic and he happens to be town, there's no potential misfire (I'm aware we also lose the chance to shoot potential scum but keyword potential) and multiple town don't die. If he's scum, well that just worked out completely in our favor, didn't it?
Lynching Generic would of course be a gamble in itself but we probably don't need to gamble further by giving him a night.
[Also Generic's posts have been merely distractions from pursuing anything decent early, though they seem to be getting better now]
{Aside, going my other job soon + working on take-home final, going to be on not tonight and then less until Thursday evening}
I don't think the math is quite right on this. For option 4, you're still going to be -1 town once Day 2 hits anyways. (It's not like Mafia is going to not kill anyone.) So if we mislynch, we're still down -2 town.
To the players with more experience; I'm assuming that we definitely want Generic to shoot tonight, correct? Is there any benefit to him saving the shot?
Also, please let me know if the following assumptions are safe to make:
1) Only a townie would be a vig. (ie. There's no mafia vigs)
2) If Generic shoots, then he's "confirmed" townie.
How does the order go for night actions? Does vigilante go first? Because if the mafia goes first, then they could target Generic's target, waste his shot, and get Generic mislynched since we'd have no way of knowing if his target was shot by Generic or by mafia.
There are likely holes in my logic... if so, please fill them in.
I left the nightkill out of the equation I think. Of course one town is going to die by mafia hands tonight, that's practically guaranteed unless there's a doc who makes a godlike judgment call on protection or a bulletproof. With the nightkill in the equation, add an extra "-1 town" to each option. You see that it just cancels out, hence having not mentioned it.
Mafia didn't have a 'vig' but the last game I was in, there was a mafioso with an unstoppable which can be used in addition to the night kill, so 2 nightkills at mafia hands was entirely possible.
If Mafia and a vig target the same guy, he just dies and there's no way to confirm it really, it's all 'simultaneous' in a sense. WELL, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY. I could be wrong.
You did leave out the possibility that you lynch someone else and they flip scum, and I get the chance to make that 2 scum to 1 town by the mafia leaving you in a commanding position on day /, and if they target me then you also get rid of me from the running on day 2.
But that again is dependent on me being successful in the night which isnt a guarantee.
That was my 'best case scenario' actually, since the alignment of the other lynch candidate is pushing this focused case out of focus. The other person we lynch is a moot point regarding your vig claim, which I centered my post on.
And now to take a quick nap before my very last shift of the semester~
Shooting ASAP is almost always best IMO because then we have more confirmed alignments to analyze D2. Keep in mind that any suggestions people make for your shot could be suggestions coming from mafia.
I disagree.
A good rule for vig shots is don't shoot if the town would get more information from a wagon.
That means, only shoot someone if they're so scummy that not one player doesn't want them dead, or only shoot someone who was already wagoned up.
The huge thing I'm worried about is that scum!Generic can simply claim that he was roleblocked.
The huge thing I'm worried about is that scum!Generic can simply claim that he was roleblocked.
So it seems like we have to choose from a bunch of bad options.
We could ask him to shoot X person, but if Mafia roleblocks or shoots that person he comes out looking scummy and we likely end up mislynching him D2. Slight upside in that it frees up any doc/cop actions assuming they don't die.
We could tell him to save the shot, and see if mafia shoots him. If so, we lose a vig opportunity; if he lives, then either he's mafia or the mafia is trying to generate a mislynch. (YAY wifom!)
We could have him "flip a coin" on whether he's going to shoot X person or not, and make the Mafia possibly waste an action on him.
We could lynch him today, definitely losing out on a vigshot, and maybe mislynching.
All those options suck in their own unique way. If I had to choose I'd go with the "flip a coin"... If he's really town, he can tell us whether or not he shot, who he targeted and we can go from there.
I saw the flipping coin thing and thought about dice, but adding targets means more potential town shots I think. I don't think we should potentially shoot town to prove your town when you probably would get shot by Mafia at some point. We could lynch you and just get it over with but with a nightkill on top of that, it would be a heavy loss. The vig shot however potentially hitting scum is also a big risk.
It's all about risk I think, at this point, especially if we're involving coins and dice. So... How about we make this clear. What is our risk capacity then (how much are we willing to risk)?
If the mafiate know a possible doc is protecting Generic, they will shoot someone else anyway, so outright stating protection is a bad idea (if there's a doc).
Also as always if Generic is scum this is just a thousand kinds of baaah baaah baaah bad (wait I'm not AlphaInsidious) to leave him alive by any means.
I don't want to work on my take home finalsnfkjdbgjhdzfnkjds
Your frustration about walls is understandable. Personally, the difference boils down to the number of walls of text generated. I have not only provided walls of text - several of my posts have been smaller, although I also have not posted as often as you have. The activation energy required to sift through walls is higher, but sometimes it is needed, and it's really a matter of personal preference/perception as to when it becomes too much.
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I have to agree with Prophylaxis regarding the vig shot. I'm generally wary of letting a vig "prove himself" by shooting someone D1 unless there's a clear consensus. Tom says that "we'll have more confirmed alignments to analyze D2" this way, but we also run a decent risk of having several more confirmed dead townies than would be ideal.
If you want me to prove myself, give me three targets and I will throw a five between them. Mafia can't screw me and you will know by two kills. MAke it 50/50 and you open the door for them to get it right (unless both choices are mafia of course) leaving me open to mislynch day 2.
That makes more sense, actually. Good call.
Assuming we have a watcher/tracker/cop (don't claim obviously), they can watch Generic to see if he takes any actions tonight, then vindicate him or not (preferably without outright claiming).
As far as targets, my only decent scum read right now is Cythare, and she's felt even less scummy as time goes on.
Sir Karn has gotten awfully quiet since you claimed. I'd like to see what he thinks of it. He HAS posted since Generic claimed, but completely ignored it, which I find slightly scummy. (I expected some sort of reaction.)
Tom and Proph I'm willing to put as firmly "town" in my book at the moment.
I saw the flipping coin thing and thought about dice, but adding targets means more potential town shots I think. I don't think we should potentially shoot town to prove your town when you probably would get shot by Mafia at some point. We could lynch you and just get it over with but with a nightkill on top of that, it would be a heavy loss. The vig shot however potentially hitting scum is also a big risk.
We are potentially hitting town if we mislynch as well. all we can do is make our best guesses on who's scum.
It's all about risk I think, at this point, especially if we're involving coins and dice. So... How about we make this clear. What is our risk capacity then (how much are we willing to risk)?
If the mafiate know a possible doc is protecting Generic, they will shoot someone else anyway, so outright stating protection is a bad idea (if there's a doc).
I don't think anyone is going to protect Generic; that doesn't make sense to me. If he draws fire from the mafia, great. If he doesn't, he hopefully shoots mafia. If he hits town instead, at least we know that he's probably town (due to being a vig), and we see how his target voted and go from there.
Also as always if Generic is scum this is just a thousand kinds of baaah baaah baaah bad (wait I'm not AlphaInsidious) to leave him alive by any means.
That's a big if. First, there's been no counterclaim yet, so that's a point in his favor. Two, as I mentioned above, we can have someone watch him (I'm taking a chance that there's some sort of watcher/cop/tracker/whatever on our side) and see if he shoots.
Overall, I think town gets a lot more information out of leaving Generic alive than we would lynching him.
Overall plan (subject to change, of course :D)
We determine who we think are the three scummiest players, all democratic like (besides Generic obviously).
Generic randomly determines one of the three to shoot.
The tracker/watcher/cop watches Generic.
Doc (because, let's face it, if we don't have at least one Doc in a game about House, the mod is doing something VERY wrong) protects anyone other than Generic and those three individuals. (The negative aspect is that the mafia will know that those three individuals aren't being protected, and will get a "free kill", but otherwise the doc would screw up the plan.)
Ok, so that's my plan. Love it or leave it, what do you guys think?
We determine who we think are the three scummiest players, all democratic like (besides Generic obviously).
Generic randomly determines one of the three to shoot.
The tracker/watcher/cop watches Generic.
Doc (because, let's face it, if we don't have at least one Doc in a game about House, the mod is doing something VERY wrong) protects anyone other than Generic and those three individuals. (The negative aspect is that the mafia will know that those three individuals aren't being protected, and will get a "free kill", but otherwise the doc would screw up the plan.)
Ok, so that's my plan. Love it or leave it, what do you guys think?
The only part about this that I don't like is that it hinges on drawing out another town PR to corroborate Generic's story. Granted, it is the most effective way to keep him honest and confirm his target, but it still doesn't change the fact that if Generic is town, he won't know the alignment of his target for sure.
I'm not saying a possible watcher shouldn't watch Generic, but I don't think we should be including it as part of the plan. I also don't like the placement of that smiley. It's awkward.
We determine who we think are the three scummiest players, all democratic like (besides Generic obviously).
Generic randomly determines one of the three to shoot.
The tracker/watcher/cop watches Generic.
Doc (because, let's face it, if we don't have at least one Doc in a game about House, the mod is doing something VERY wrong) protects anyone other than Generic and those three individuals. (The negative aspect is that the mafia will know that those three individuals aren't being protected, and will get a "free kill", but otherwise the doc would screw up the plan.)
Ok, so that's my plan. Love it or leave it, what do you guys think?
The only part about this that I don't like is that it hinges on drawing out another town PR to corroborate Generic's story. Granted, it is the most effective way to keep him honest and confirm his target, but it still doesn't change the fact that if Generic is town, he won't know the alignment of his target for sure.
I'm not saying a possible watcher shouldn't watch Generic, but I don't think we should be including it as part of the plan. I also don't like the placement of that smiley. It's awkward.
You think the smiley is awkward? Ok, I guess. I just put it there to indicate that I certainly don't think that my plan is good from the jump, and I hope that more experienced players would contribute their ideas.
As far as drawing out another town PR, not necessarily. If two people die tonight (mafia NK and Gen vig shot), then we can assume he's townie, and thereby not out a power role. If for some reason only one person dies, we can hear what Generic has to say, who he targeted, etc etc and go from there. The PR would only have to out themselves if 1) they KNEW Generic was town and 2) Generic was definitely on his way to being lynched.
Why don't you think Generic should be watched tonight? Would you have them watch someone else instead?
Sir Karn has gotten awfully quiet since you claimed. I'd like to see what he thinks of it. He HAS posted since Generic claimed, but completely ignored it, which I find slightly scummy. (I expected some sort of reaction.)
I thought my reaction was clear in the fact that I have not unvoted.
I don't believe Generic's claim. And even to those who do: Would you like to take your chances rolling dice between three people on a Vig shot; or would you rather just lynch the one who has already been L-1 and still has the highest vote count, meaning he's the one that the most people in this game think is scum.
The only part about this that I don't like is that it hinges on drawing out another town PR to corroborate Generic's story. Granted, it is the most effective way to keep him honest and confirm his target, but it still doesn't change the fact that if Generic is town, he won't know the alignment of his target for sure.
I'm not saying a possible watcher shouldn't watch Generic, but I don't think we should be including it as part of the plan. I also don't like the placement of that smiley. It's awkward.
You think the smiley is awkward? Ok, I guess. I just put it there to indicate that I certainly don't think that my plan is good from the jump, and I hope that more experienced players would contribute their ideas.
As far as drawing out another town PR, not necessarily. If two people die tonight (mafia NK and Gen vig shot), then we can assume he's townie, and thereby not out a power role. If for some reason only one person dies, we can hear what Generic has to say, who he targeted, etc etc and go from there. The PR would only have to out themselves if 1) they KNEW Generic was town and 2) Generic was definitely on his way to being lynched.
Why don't you think Generic should be watched tonight? Would you have them watch someone else instead?
The same point would have been made without it, and it was also the choice of smiley that seemed weird.
Anyways, I'm not saying Generic shouldn't be watched (which I already said, you're twisting that), I'm just saying that it didn't seem like a particularly notable addition to the plan, especially since you didn't include any additional information about what is done the next day regarding the watcher/tracker. It just looked like a way of trying to nonchalantly include a potential power role and then have him/her share his findings next day (and being outed).
Your follow-up is what I would have expected to be included in the initial proposal. Also, how would the watcher know that Generic is town? Watching usually doesn't reveal alignment, and the only way he'd know would be if he watched Generic vig scum (which we would also all be able to see the next Day anyways).
The only scenario that I can really see the watcher being relevant is if Generic is scum and he performs the NK, then claims that he was "roleblocked" to explain why only one person died. The watcher will see that he took an action. Every other scenario with the watcher still includes the opinion of the watcher, not facts.
The only part about this that I don't like is that it hinges on drawing out another town PR to corroborate Generic's story. Granted, it is the most effective way to keep him honest and confirm his target, but it still doesn't change the fact that if Generic is town, he won't know the alignment of his target for sure.
I'm not saying a possible watcher shouldn't watch Generic, but I don't think we should be including it as part of the plan. I also don't like the placement of that smiley. It's awkward.
You think the smiley is awkward? Ok, I guess. I just put it there to indicate that I certainly don't think that my plan is good from the jump, and I hope that more experienced players would contribute their ideas.
As far as drawing out another town PR, not necessarily. If two people die tonight (mafia NK and Gen vig shot), then we can assume he's townie, and thereby not out a power role. If for some reason only one person dies, we can hear what Generic has to say, who he targeted, etc etc and go from there. The PR would only have to out themselves if 1) they KNEW Generic was town and 2) Generic was definitely on his way to being lynched.
Why don't you think Generic should be watched tonight? Would you have them watch someone else instead?
The same point would have been made without it, and it was also the choice of smiley that seemed weird.
Anyways, I'm not saying Generic shouldn't be watched (which I already said, you're twisting that), I'm just saying that it didn't seem like a particularly notable addition to the plan, especially since you didn't include any additional information about what is done the next day regarding the watcher/tracker. It just looked like a way of trying to nonchalantly include a potential power role and then have him/her share his findings next day (and being outed).
Your follow-up is what I would have expected to be included in the initial proposal. Also, how would the watcher know that Generic is town? Watching usually doesn't reveal alignment, and the only way he'd know would be if he watched Generic vig scum (which we would also all be able to see the next Day anyways).
The only scenario that I can really see the watcher being relevant is if Generic is scum and he performs the NK, then claims that he was "roleblocked" to explain why only one person died. The watcher will see that he took an action. Every other scenario with the watcher still includes the opinion of the watcher, not facts.
Sorry about the misrep... double negatives are a pain. The reason I said to watch Generic was so that we could see if he took an action. Assuming he is watched (and by this, I mean we can see if he took an action, I apologize if I'm not using the right terminology).
Augh, ok, gonna try to go over the scenarios. Of course, there's no obvious sure way of getting scum instead of town, but here's the choices I can see.
1) Generic is scum A) He performs the NK: Watcher sees it and tries to lynch him without claiming, and failing all else calls him out. B) He takes no action: Again, same as above. Watcher sees it and tries to lynch him without claiming, and failing all else calls him out.
2) Generic is town. A) He shoots someone in addition to a NK: Watcher sees, shouldn't have to out since Generic since he's semi-confirmed townie B) He shoots the person that the Mafia is shooting: Watcher sees, tries to lynch, may generate a mislynch C) He takes no action: Watcher sees, tries to lynch, outs if necessary D) He is roleblocked: Watcher sees no action, tries to lynch, may generate a mislynch (this is assuming that watcher doesn't see the roleblock towards Generic)
Am I missing anything? (I know that we could possibly have false claims from others on Generic, but that makes things really messy.)
I don't necessarily see a problem with watching Generic. He looks like the best person to watch as of now. Of course, if the watcher feels someone else is more scummy, then he could choose that, but then I think we'd get less info.
You need a tracker surely, not a watcher.
A watcher watches what happens to me. A tracker sees what I do.
Yes, a tracker then. Thanks for clearing that up. If we don't have a tracker, then nevermind.
Just reread the "common Mafia roles" so I can stop making an arse of myself. If we do have a watcher, I'm not sure who should be watched... maybe one of the three chosen?
I also don't know if a cop should target you or not. Your actions will likely out you one way or another, but maybe the cop should target you for additional security? Not sure on the best strategy.
Just reread the "common Mafia roles" so I can stop making an arse of myself. If we do have a watcher, I'm not sure who should be watched... maybe one of the three chosen?
I also don't know if a cop should target you or not. Your actions will likely out you one way or another, but maybe the cop should target you for additional security? Not sure on the best strategy.
If we have a cop, I think his/her talents would be better suited elsewhere. As you state, Generic's actions would likely result in him outing himself (although not necessarily). I'm also hesitant to keep talking about possibilities of what each potential PR should do. We don't know what power roles there are, and on the off-chance we discuss one that is in the game, we're also allowing the scum team to see these plans. I would like to think that PRs can responsibly figure out the best plan of action (although this is not always the case), and even if they can't, there's added value in scum not knowing what their most likely plan is in the event they exist.
And I wanted to point out I respected cythares post to me earlier about walls if text. I'm still not seeing much in the way of ideas of his own, currently he seems to just prefer to throw obstacles at ideas of others, but much like with Tom and Teh Jey, I give props to a fair point. And I have tried to reduce the big posts and not do so many in a row.
As for sir karn, desperate for the quick end I see. You are safe tonight if the rest don't put you in the three I'm choosing between, so panicking over getting me lynched as fast as you can push it is pointless.
Whoops, meant to respond to this half to, but forgot. I'm not trying to just "throw obstacles at ideas of others". I'm trying to provide constructive criticism to help flesh out good ideas and deter less useful ones.
Re:lynch speed: We have plenty of time. I still haven't been convinced to change my vote, but have no problem with some additional discussion beforehand. And where does Sir Karn look panicked about speed lynching you?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Generic
The question that I posed was referencing the exact text quoted right before the question.
The bolded part is what I was referring to because your syntax there is horribly misleading. I thought you were saying that you felt the need to provide more information because your previous posts were insufficient, which is a completely reasonable way to parse that text (although wrong, as I now see).
Not saying you must be doing the same, but I'm saying that's the sense I'm getting. You are including a lot of OMGUSing and mudslinging with your text, and rather than concisely stating your points, you're stream of consciousnessing it, which comes across to me as puffing your chest, not unlike I had done. I referenced that previous game for context. I am aware that you are not me, but that doesn't mean you're not doing something similar.
You're the one that presented a binary list of choices. I can understand not having complete confidence in your early reads, but there's a difference between a lack of confidence and providing counterarguments to yourself.
I didn't miss it, but it's tangential to this issue.
It doesn't make it true because I said it, but that was in response to the end of one of your posts talking about when I'm "proven scum".
@LnGrrrR
There weren't that many posts to review, given this was before the walls of text. I saw what Sir Karn posted, went back to read them, and did indeed change my mind.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
You need to put forth a better claim.
This is the third member of the karn/cythare scum team.
Speaking of which, You really like to put words in people's mouths or twist posts to read a certain way in your favor. I really don't like that.
As annoying as Generic is and I wouldn't mind seeing him lynched anyway, if he is town then this could actually make a lot of sense, though I'd still be shaky on Cythare. It's an easy attack and all three of them are voting for him. I'm going to have to re-read Cythare yet again from LnGrrrR's case because I'm still shaking my head, but I'm willing to give it another go.
If Generic is scum then at least one of these is also scum for driving the aforementioned Vengabus.
I'm more geared toward that second theory though.
So Condoms if Generic flips scum who do you think is the primary bus driver here?
Cows produce milk. Humans produce milk also. In fact mammals in general produce milk. Milk milk milk.
...Okay fine, I'll get back to re-reading...
yah nah. Finding it hard to agree with LnGrrrR's stance here. Cythare said that there were a couple of valid points (sure) but it's mostly just... useless mudslinging and constant twisting and complaining.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Please shoot Karn tonight.
Compelling argument.
This just looks weird. Why the double unvote/vote?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Its not any less compelling than the reasons to lynch generic.
I think lynching Generic first would shine a better light on things than Cythare. I agree that both cases are like 'wtf' but I highly doubt Generic would be saying half the things he's spewed about now if he wasn't scum trying to pull off an angry town mindset. It doesn't line up.
I also think it's sad that in order to uncover more we're betting on a lynch rather than building any cases, asking questions or analyzing. Seems like a low point in a mafia day.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
How do you think things will look for you if Generic flips scum?
Cases have been built, questions have been asked, and posts have been analyzed. Lynch is the next logical step.
Why are you trying to cram the lynch down our throat when only like five IRL days have passed?
...Well that escalated quickly? I was hoping for feedback and I got some, and then this response seems unnecessary.
Also I totally wrecked that final and now I'm going to celebrate with some good ol' Banjo Kazooie on this nifty little N64 I brought up from home <3 =D
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Because
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
If you don't like my food, don't eat it. I won't force it down your throat. I'm just confident in my vote. I was responding to Teh JeY since he was acting like cases/questions/analyzing haven't happened, when they all have.
and
not enough cases*
I should've been more specific, I feel like there were lame cases and now we're moving onto a lynch from bleh material.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
It's funny you say that. Your vote is on Generic, who is L-1. If you're not satisfied, then unvote and start making some cases.
Ugh.
Can't you see that Generic is the top lynch right now?
You're going to have to provide more analysis than your trademark one liners. I know that you overvalue content that can be grabbed from your cryptic posts, but stuff like this makes me realize why we didn't lynch Audinho in The Office.
Let's start. I'm a n00b and I don't understand why you think swishh is the third member of your hypothetical scum team. Can you please explain why?
Why do you think my question is "unnecessary"?
Also, I request an unvote from one of you who is voting Generic. Leaving him at L-1 seems like a potentially dangerous play since someone could *cough, cough* accidentally hammer him.
I think TeH is scummy because he didn't unvote when Generic claimed one shot vig. His/her posts don't exactly inspire me as well.
@Vitek: Why don't you believe it? It's easily provable.
I have been bitten by this just recently in one of my off site games (where scum claimed doc and rode to endgame with me never suspecting him) but in this case, the claim is provable. It's possible that the scum have a roleblocker, though.
Reading back, it feels awkward that Generic had a big fight with Sir Karn. If I was vig, I would have just skipped the quote war and just shoot Sir Karn N1.
For TeH, I don't like the "I should've been more specific, I feel like there were lame cases and now we're moving onto a lynch from bleh material."
If he was town, then I think he would actually make cases rather than bemoan them. Also, why does he think that the case on Generic is from "bleh material"? That would signify an unvote from me. In fact, if I think that a case is based off of shaky material, I wouldn't even vote that person.
Also LnGrrrR, Cythare is a he.
unvote, vote TeH JeY
Tom and Cythare can vouch for this, but I have a thing with my name. My name is JeY. "Teh" Is not a name. "Teh" Does not have a capital 'h'. My username is "Teh JeY" because "The JeY" just sounds boring. Do not call me 'Teh'. Do not shorten my name to 'TJ' because my name isn't 'TJ', that's my friend's name. My name is JeY.
Please be the slightest bit respectful and actually -read- the name at the head of my posts before using it. Thank you. Once is an honest mistake, that's fair. By the 5th time I have to make this explanation of course I'm going to sound angry. I consider misrepresenting my name to be blatant disrespect even if you didn't intend it, this is your warning.
The capital 'y' is negligible, all lowercase is acceptable (teh jey), but otherwise just call me JeY. "Vote: JeY" counts (I'm pretty sure, it did last time).
[And I'm a girl, regarding pronouns.]
Now that that's out of the way...
I made a case that I was fine with even preferred a Generic lynch regardless at this point, even if I am disappointed that we're moving to a lynch so early (or what seems like early). Maybe I didn't say that explicitly before but I am now.
"trying to cram the lynch down our throat" is a loaded phrase, when Sir Karn wasn't even being the least bit aggressive about his response to me as you make it out to be with that phrasing.
Speaking of bad phrasing, I'm the perfect example. I thought I made it pretty clear that I was content with seeing a Generic lynch as it would tell us a decent bit more, but apparently I didn't (for the second time however I am now). Even with 'bleh' material I'm -really- okay with lynching Generic. That's why I haven't unvoted and jumped back into the pond for another round of 'sink the sailboat'.
Also with Vitek unvoting I don't feel any urge to remove my vote any time soon with him no longer being L-1.
Ribbit.
Also I'm not making cases because I'm still bad at this game and have no clue where to go next, but now I've caused a case against me! Goody. My case is still against Generic - the way that his voice feels through his posts speaks angry scum more than frustrated town.
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So if you've got the scum team down pat, and later say you dislike the reasoning behind the Generic case, why do you want him to claim?
This. It all seems odd. However his claim is provable, so unvote
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Vote: Swishh
He's actively lurking. We are a couple hundred posts in and all he's done is give a couple shaky opinions and a vote. Swishh normally posts a lot in his town games.
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I need to reread.
Fair enough, JeY.
What do you think about Generic's vig claim?
@Cythare: Hm. I thought your wall-of-text was responding to LnGrrrR, but as it turns out it's not.
Can you please respond to his case?
Why would you worry about being lynched if you are a PR? Once you claim people would start to unvote you, as we are doing now. It's provable.
All you've accomplished by defending yourself with so many text walls is make people reluctant to play the game (and incriminate yourself further). If you believe karn is lying or misreping you, why not just say that in a sentence or two here and there?
Why wouldn't you use it N1 in any circumstance??
Also you never would have been lynched before the claim. It's policy to wait at L-2 for the claim and then either proceed or unvote. But I'm pretty sure you knew that.
Yeah, that was finishing up some responses to Generic, not LnGrrrR. Here you go. Also, I'll be spoilering my walls from now on:
She felt a lot scummier to me earlier than she does now, but Generic has been all over the place so it could be a reason why her defense is sounding better.[/quote]
First off, don't like the "I think I'm okay with this" language, but that's just a minor note. I'm also sounding better because I have horrible early D1 play. It's a recurring problem regardless of alignment.
That wasn't the take away message (regarding Klevenklop). I was stating that I assumed that Klevenklop was being truthful about being new, but brought up a corner case that didn't pan out well for anecdotal reasons. If we assume Klevenklop is new, then it's reasonable to assume she didn't know about RVS.
I see what you're saying re:Vitek, though. He said it was "soon into RVS", which read as dismissive to me (this is also the first thing that made him look scummy to me). However, I think I'm just having reading comprehension issues, because what I saw before isn't what I'm seeing now. Because of this, Vitek is no longer on my scum team. Thanks for clearing this up! Now I feel like an idiot.
The "note" was related to post 61, in my response to Vitek, because in my misunderstanding of him, I thought he was trying to dismiss Proph's response, which I noted should not be disregarded. I've already accepted that I misread Vitek's note.
I have already addressed this point with others, but since it's the sticking point, I'll do it again. I had not picked up on the fence sitting before, because I had only picked up on the one side of his arguments at the time. I did a quick reread of Generic's posts afterwards, and did see what Sir Karn had pointed out, so I changed my vote. And you're right, I didn't document all of my notes in the thread.
I didn't think about how I was writing the comment. That's just my train of thought.
What does him not answering my questions have to do with my vote being real? I didn't follow up with the questions at that point because I was out for the night. I happened to check at a couple points when I drunkenly lashed out about being called a n00b, but when I came back the next day, I got sidetracked by the wall of text war. I care less about my questions remaining unanswered (which lost relevance by the next day) at this point, given everything else that went on between Sir Karn and Generic.
My Vitek = scum was based on the incorrect premise from before. And you're right, I didn't share what they were. I didn't feel it was necessary at the time.
I'm curious what you mean by "interesting" here. I've always heard it said that "interesting" is a scummy word, because it points something out in a noncommittal way. What about it is interesting, and how is it interesting to you?
Given the amount of content there was to review, is it really that hard to believe that I could change my mind when rereading, especially considering how many other things I've misread this game already?
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Which is referring to me saying, [This quote is interesting: "Loose comment wasn't mine, so your argument here is a swing and a miss. I noted that comment before I went back based on Sir Karn's note. So what? Your entire argument here is based on misattribution of a quote. And I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia. If scum only used false arguments, they would stick out like a sore thumb. Just because I like part of your logic doesn't mean I think you're town."]
I think the "I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia." it sounds scummy to me. You didn't say, "I have no problem rereading an argument and changing my mind" or something to that effect, which is what I would expect a townie to say. I could understand if we were in D2/D3, and someone caught a slip, posted it, and the town went "A-ha! He must be scum!" That would be a valid reason for flipping a position. I just don't think the "fence-sitting" is that much of an "A-ha" catch, but you latched onto it anyway as an excuse to jump on Generic's wagon and/or bus him.
Not a fan of the "built-in" excuse either. This, along with your "I have bad play early D1" seems to try and excuse any scummy actions. Again, if you did change your mind, as townie I'd at least expect to see some sort of analysis posted during/about your reread, rather than a semi-naked /barn.
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Fair enough. I stand by my statement "I have no problem agreeing with one person's opinion on one player and then deciding they're also Mafia", though. The difference between that and your wording of how you would expect it to be written is that I changed my mind on Generic, but I still think that some of the stuff he said is relevant. That's the point I was trying to make there. Just saying "I have no problem rereading an argument and changing my mind" makes it seem like I've decided to totally disregard his previous posts, which I had already agreed with. And, as I've already said, I still think there is worthwhile insight/information there. I just don't think it's coming from a town perspective.
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Was going to post my thoughts regardless, once I got out of work (which is now! yay!)
The vig claim is dangerous in my opinion. Yes, if he's town and we have a guaranteed scum he can shoot it's an amazing thing but that's best case scenario. Let's go over -all- scenarios.
1: Generic is scum. Regardless if he's actually a vig, this will only result in Town dying, then we probably lynch him the next day. -1 town, -1 scum.
2: Generic is town. We can have him shoot someone we believe is scum, but there are still odds that he hits town (even if less likely with educated opinions). Then we probably lynch him the next day, -2 town, or possibly -1 town -1 scum. This ignores the best case scenario I already presented.
3: Generic is town or scum and we don't lynch him the next day: He could still possibly shoot other town but it would be a one and done, and this is really bad if he's still scum (especially scum with a more re-usable PR). Plus he could still be shot by scum so another -2 Town or -1 town -1 scum.
4: Lynch Generic tonight: -1 town OR -1 scum, would give insight on some other players. Well, I guess that's not fair to say, Generic's flip would give insight regardless but this way would just be the least risky insight.
All of these cases point in favor of town dying needlessly. If we just lynch Generic and he happens to be town, there's no potential misfire (I'm aware we also lose the chance to shoot potential scum but keyword potential) and multiple town don't die. If he's scum, well that just worked out completely in our favor, didn't it?
Lynching Generic would of course be a gamble in itself but we probably don't need to gamble further by giving him a night.
[Also Generic's posts have been merely distractions from pursuing anything decent early, though they seem to be getting better now]
{Aside, going my other job soon + working on take-home final, going to be on not tonight and then less until Thursday evening}
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I don't think the math is quite right on this. For option 4, you're still going to be -1 town once Day 2 hits anyways. (It's not like Mafia is going to not kill anyone.) So if we mislynch, we're still down -2 town.
To the players with more experience; I'm assuming that we definitely want Generic to shoot tonight, correct? Is there any benefit to him saving the shot?
Also, please let me know if the following assumptions are safe to make:
1) Only a townie would be a vig. (ie. There's no mafia vigs)
2) If Generic shoots, then he's "confirmed" townie.
How does the order go for night actions? Does vigilante go first? Because if the mafia goes first, then they could target Generic's target, waste his shot, and get Generic mislynched since we'd have no way of knowing if his target was shot by Generic or by mafia.
There are likely holes in my logic... if so, please fill them in.
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Mafia didn't have a 'vig' but the last game I was in, there was a mafioso with an unstoppable which can be used in addition to the night kill, so 2 nightkills at mafia hands was entirely possible.
If Mafia and a vig target the same guy, he just dies and there's no way to confirm it really, it's all 'simultaneous' in a sense. WELL, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY. I could be wrong.
That was my 'best case scenario' actually, since the alignment of the other lynch candidate is pushing this focused case out of focus. The other person we lynch is a moot point regarding your vig claim, which I centered my post on.
And now to take a quick nap before my very last shift of the semester~
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I disagree.
A good rule for vig shots is don't shoot if the town would get more information from a wagon.
That means, only shoot someone if they're so scummy that not one player doesn't want them dead, or only shoot someone who was already wagoned up.
The huge thing I'm worried about is that scum!Generic can simply claim that he was roleblocked.
So it seems like we have to choose from a bunch of bad options.
We could ask him to shoot X person, but if Mafia roleblocks or shoots that person he comes out looking scummy and we likely end up mislynching him D2. Slight upside in that it frees up any doc/cop actions assuming they don't die.
We could tell him to save the shot, and see if mafia shoots him. If so, we lose a vig opportunity; if he lives, then either he's mafia or the mafia is trying to generate a mislynch. (YAY wifom!)
We could have him "flip a coin" on whether he's going to shoot X person or not, and make the Mafia possibly waste an action on him.
We could lynch him today, definitely losing out on a vigshot, and maybe mislynching.
All those options suck in their own unique way. If I had to choose I'd go with the "flip a coin"... If he's really town, he can tell us whether or not he shot, who he targeted and we can go from there.
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It's all about risk I think, at this point, especially if we're involving coins and dice. So... How about we make this clear. What is our risk capacity then (how much are we willing to risk)?
If the mafiate know a possible doc is protecting Generic, they will shoot someone else anyway, so outright stating protection is a bad idea (if there's a doc).
Also as always if Generic is scum this is just a thousand kinds of baaah baaah baaah bad (wait I'm not AlphaInsidious) to leave him alive by any means.
I don't want to work on my take home finalsnfkjdbgjhdzfnkjds
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Your frustration about walls is understandable. Personally, the difference boils down to the number of walls of text generated. I have not only provided walls of text - several of my posts have been smaller, although I also have not posted as often as you have. The activation energy required to sift through walls is higher, but sometimes it is needed, and it's really a matter of personal preference/perception as to when it becomes too much.
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I have to agree with Prophylaxis regarding the vig shot. I'm generally wary of letting a vig "prove himself" by shooting someone D1 unless there's a clear consensus. Tom says that "we'll have more confirmed alignments to analyze D2" this way, but we also run a decent risk of having several more confirmed dead townies than would be ideal.
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That makes more sense, actually. Good call.
Assuming we have a watcher/tracker/cop (don't claim obviously), they can watch Generic to see if he takes any actions tonight, then vindicate him or not (preferably without outright claiming).
As far as targets, my only decent scum read right now is Cythare, and she's felt even less scummy as time goes on.
Sir Karn has gotten awfully quiet since you claimed. I'd like to see what he thinks of it. He HAS posted since Generic claimed, but completely ignored it, which I find slightly scummy. (I expected some sort of reaction.)
Tom and Proph I'm willing to put as firmly "town" in my book at the moment.
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We are potentially hitting town if we mislynch as well. all we can do is make our best guesses on who's scum.
I don't think anyone is going to protect Generic; that doesn't make sense to me. If he draws fire from the mafia, great. If he doesn't, he hopefully shoots mafia. If he hits town instead, at least we know that he's probably town (due to being a vig), and we see how his target voted and go from there.
That's a big if. First, there's been no counterclaim yet, so that's a point in his favor. Two, as I mentioned above, we can have someone watch him (I'm taking a chance that there's some sort of watcher/cop/tracker/whatever on our side) and see if he shoots.
Overall, I think town gets a lot more information out of leaving Generic alive than we would lynching him.
Overall plan (subject to change, of course :D)
We determine who we think are the three scummiest players, all democratic like (besides Generic obviously).
Generic randomly determines one of the three to shoot.
The tracker/watcher/cop watches Generic.
Doc (because, let's face it, if we don't have at least one Doc in a game about House, the mod is doing something VERY wrong) protects anyone other than Generic and those three individuals. (The negative aspect is that the mafia will know that those three individuals aren't being protected, and will get a "free kill", but otherwise the doc would screw up the plan.)
Ok, so that's my plan. Love it or leave it, what do you guys think?
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The only part about this that I don't like is that it hinges on drawing out another town PR to corroborate Generic's story. Granted, it is the most effective way to keep him honest and confirm his target, but it still doesn't change the fact that if Generic is town, he won't know the alignment of his target for sure.
I'm not saying a possible watcher shouldn't watch Generic, but I don't think we should be including it as part of the plan. I also don't like the placement of that smiley. It's awkward.
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You think the smiley is awkward? Ok, I guess. I just put it there to indicate that I certainly don't think that my plan is good from the jump, and I hope that more experienced players would contribute their ideas.
As far as drawing out another town PR, not necessarily. If two people die tonight (mafia NK and Gen vig shot), then we can assume he's townie, and thereby not out a power role. If for some reason only one person dies, we can hear what Generic has to say, who he targeted, etc etc and go from there. The PR would only have to out themselves if 1) they KNEW Generic was town and 2) Generic was definitely on his way to being lynched.
Why don't you think Generic should be watched tonight? Would you have them watch someone else instead?
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I thought my reaction was clear in the fact that I have not unvoted.
I don't believe Generic's claim. And even to those who do: Would you like to take your chances rolling dice between three people on a Vig shot; or would you rather just lynch the one who has already been L-1 and still has the highest vote count, meaning he's the one that the most people in this game think is scum.
The same point would have been made without it, and it was also the choice of smiley that seemed weird.
Anyways, I'm not saying Generic shouldn't be watched (which I already said, you're twisting that), I'm just saying that it didn't seem like a particularly notable addition to the plan, especially since you didn't include any additional information about what is done the next day regarding the watcher/tracker. It just looked like a way of trying to nonchalantly include a potential power role and then have him/her share his findings next day (and being outed).
Your follow-up is what I would have expected to be included in the initial proposal. Also, how would the watcher know that Generic is town? Watching usually doesn't reveal alignment, and the only way he'd know would be if he watched Generic vig scum (which we would also all be able to see the next Day anyways).
The only scenario that I can really see the watcher being relevant is if Generic is scum and he performs the NK, then claims that he was "roleblocked" to explain why only one person died. The watcher will see that he took an action. Every other scenario with the watcher still includes the opinion of the watcher, not facts.
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Sorry about the misrep... double negatives are a pain. The reason I said to watch Generic was so that we could see if he took an action. Assuming he is watched (and by this, I mean we can see if he took an action, I apologize if I'm not using the right terminology).
Augh, ok, gonna try to go over the scenarios. Of course, there's no obvious sure way of getting scum instead of town, but here's the choices I can see.
1) Generic is scum
A) He performs the NK: Watcher sees it and tries to lynch him without claiming, and failing all else calls him out.
B) He takes no action: Again, same as above. Watcher sees it and tries to lynch him without claiming, and failing all else calls him out.
2) Generic is town.
A) He shoots someone in addition to a NK: Watcher sees, shouldn't have to out since Generic since he's semi-confirmed townie
B) He shoots the person that the Mafia is shooting: Watcher sees, tries to lynch, may generate a mislynch
C) He takes no action: Watcher sees, tries to lynch, outs if necessary
D) He is roleblocked: Watcher sees no action, tries to lynch, may generate a mislynch (this is assuming that watcher doesn't see the roleblock towards Generic)
Am I missing anything? (I know that we could possibly have false claims from others on Generic, but that makes things really messy.)
I don't necessarily see a problem with watching Generic. He looks like the best person to watch as of now. Of course, if the watcher feels someone else is more scummy, then he could choose that, but then I think we'd get less info.
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Yes, a tracker then. Thanks for clearing that up. If we don't have a tracker, then nevermind.
Just reread the "common Mafia roles" so I can stop making an arse of myself. If we do have a watcher, I'm not sure who should be watched... maybe one of the three chosen?
I also don't know if a cop should target you or not. Your actions will likely out you one way or another, but maybe the cop should target you for additional security? Not sure on the best strategy.
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You're right - I was thinking of a stalker, which has also been used in a Basic here before, not a watcher.
If we have a cop, I think his/her talents would be better suited elsewhere. As you state, Generic's actions would likely result in him outing himself (although not necessarily). I'm also hesitant to keep talking about possibilities of what each potential PR should do. We don't know what power roles there are, and on the off-chance we discuss one that is in the game, we're also allowing the scum team to see these plans. I would like to think that PRs can responsibly figure out the best plan of action (although this is not always the case), and even if they can't, there's added value in scum not knowing what their most likely plan is in the event they exist.
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Whoops, meant to respond to this half to, but forgot. I'm not trying to just "throw obstacles at ideas of others". I'm trying to provide constructive criticism to help flesh out good ideas and deter less useful ones.
Re:lynch speed: We have plenty of time. I still haven't been convinced to change my vote, but have no problem with some additional discussion beforehand. And where does Sir Karn look panicked about speed lynching you?
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A reminder to please place all votes at the start of a line.
Votecount #3:
Cythare (3): Condoms, Generic, LnGrrrR
Generic (4): Sir Karn, Cythare, Teh JeY, Swishh
LnGrrrR (1): Klevenklop
Teh JeY (1): Prophylaxis
Swishh (1): Tom
Not Voting (2): Killjoy, Vitek
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!