DRey: I'd say you shouldn't post the wincon... and if you do, make ABSOLUTELY SURE you clear it with Xyre first. I don't trust that wincon push one bit, doubly so with Voxx and KCC being the ones pushing for it - Voxx has that horribly noncommittal post from earlier, and KCC... well, look below.
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Asen: Why on earth would you assume that DRey *hasn't* fullclaimed? I know what that role is, I'm hoping the scum haven't figured out what it does yet.
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Okay, with DRey's claim and recent posts I've seen enough and run enough reading on other games to be reasonably sure. KCC is scum.
We're barely a hundred posts into the game, relax.
And you should have most of my current scum reads by now. -The only one I haven't mentioned yet is Che, but that's because I'm still trying to figure out if I think his posts are scummy, or if it's just something about the posting style that is bothering me.
How did I miss this earlier? It's the catch of the day!
Take a good look, people. "I'm still trying to figure out if I think his posts are scummy." Not "if he's scum". Not even "if his posts are scummy" (which by itself would be IIoA, since scummy posts don't always come from scum).
But KCC says that she's trying to figure out if she *thinks* his posts are scummy. Why would KCC-town phrase it that way? I'm not seeing it.
If KCC is scum, however, the motivation is obvious (and this would then be a slip): KCC is keeping her options open and giving herself an opening to fabricate a case later if needed.
Also, note the response to my "standing off to the side, that's not a town place to stand" comment at the beginning of the quote. KCC doesn't explain how her actions make sense from town or how my comment is wrong. Instead, she brushes away the attack (and in a way that I'm accustomed to seeing from scum who don't want a confrontation).
"Changed" isn't the right word, exactly, because I'm just as uncomfortable with his hypothetical proposal now as I was then. The only difference is, now, I have a little more info -namely, how he responded to the pressure. And it's just not worth pursuing.
"Still uncomfortable with his hypothetical proposal" followed by "not worth pursuing"? I don't think that's genuine. You don't say whether or not you think
As for Nis, I actually like the way he is handling his pressure and responding here. I still don't like his "hypothetical" at all, and will be keeping a very close eye on him, but I'm happy to move past that issue.
Note that KCC likes the way Nis responds to pressure (which would indicate Nistown), but then goes on to say that she'll be "keeping a close eye on him" and is "happy to move past that issue". That's not how I'd expect a townie who genuinely liked Nis's response to phrase that (especially the happy to move past part); note that KCC isn't going "yes, I can see that logic coming from town" but rather "time to move on". She's keeping open an option to attack Nis later on this issue - classic scum rhetoric/behavior.
I couldn't disagree with this more. And I'm more suspicious of Nis now for having glossed over everything in AG's post to simply paint it all in a negative light, when even the slightest bit of analysis shows townie reasoning and mindset behind that post.
"More suspicious of Nis now" - again, indirect wording.
Also note that KCC isn't explaining how Nis's mindset is *inconsistent*, just that it could come from scum. Coming from KCC, I'm pretty sure that's a MAJOR scumtell - she's *not actually scumhunting*. Explanation/representative KCC town post.
This is so, so wrong. AG brought up a safety measure for Tar that hadn't been discussed. He pointed out an issue in DRey's post that hadn't been mentioned. -The post had content, and good content, you are just choosing to gloss over it.
Again, KCC fails to explain how Nis's actions come from inconsistent motivation. (By my read, Nis is scumhunting - I'm leaning towards him being *wrong* on AG, but that doesn't make him scum.)
Yes, I'm well aware that you are pushing to lynch the low hanging fruit. You don't need to explain that to me.
Note the dismissive tone here. If KCC is town, why dismiss Nis here? Nis is trying to explain his motivations and the error in KCC's argument... and KCC, a player who focuses on motivation when scumhunting, just brushes him off? That... doesn't make any sense.
Well, unless KCC is scum and trying to misrep Nis to make him look worse. Then it makes perfect sense. Hmm.
I think you are a strong contender for the strawman awards this year. And you absolutely know better than this.
But, I'll humor you and explain this out like it's your first game of mafia, since that's apparently what you want. Towntells refer to things that indicate a player's alignment as town (these can vary from something as small as having an opinion or viewpoint on a situation that is unlikely to be effectively mimicked by scum, to something as conclusive as showing knowledge of the town wincon that the scum wouldn't have). On the other hand, a good townie posts useful content, scumhunts effectively, and advances the gamestate.
Bad players can easily commit towntells (like claiming at L-6, which is equal parts towntell and terrible play). And just because someone posts something that indicates there alignment, it doesn't magically make them a good townie. Here, AG is being a bad townie. He isn't posting much, and when he does post, it tends to be light. Despite that, some of what he has posted shows clear town mindset behind it. That doesn't make his posts good.
But, more importantly, you obviously know all of this. So, again, why are you playing stupid?
Stooping to insults/discrediting? That's not town-KCC.
Slowrolling is stalling. But you weren't even doing that, you were just dragging your feet. And the "town powerrole" possibility wasn't worth discussing there. -There is no way to know that without the claim, and once you do claim, if it clears you, then that's that anyway.
And not a single thing you listed there is a reason why I voted you. I know your playstyle, and my vote has nothing to do with that.
Again, your response to an attack is to go completely dismissive... and this attack is particularly well-founded, to boot. Why is a player who focuses on motivation and mindset as town ignoring potential town motivations for not wanting to claim?
I think it's because you're scum trying to disguise your lack of real scumhunting with defending players you think are town (a null tell, doubly so from you) and attacking players you think are weak.
Secondly, the Nis case is completely about motivation, even if I haven't explicitly spelled it out here. -I analyzed the AG post, and both Asenion and Nis responded. Asenion looked through the reasoning presented, acknowledged some of what I pointed out as being a good point, and responded to the rest in a way that shows he was considering the issues. Based on this, Asenion is more likely town than not. Nis, however, just waved his hand at it and said, "No, AG's post has no content or anything worth looking at." What town motivation exists for that? Is he tunnelvisioned? -I'm not seeing that after only two AG posts -Nis isn't Cyan.
And what's worse is Nis acting like he doesn't understand some basic mafia concepts like interaction analysis. There's no town motivation for acting stupid to push a case. The scum motive is obvious though, as is all of this, which is why I haven't bothered diving into it all explicitly.
If I'm skipping through too much for you though, I'm sorry. -I just finished with Cyberspace, where we had an amazing group of players, so I may be a bit spoiled with being able to jump over the minutiae. -I'll try to slow it down a bit and walk through things more.
Also, you may want to read a bit of Days 3 & 4 of that game if you don't think I tend to get a bit of an attitude with scum who respond in this particular way to questioning. Because I do, because it drives me crazy.
Yeah, I wish I had seen the earlier parts of Cyberspace. It looked like a great game.
@Taredas: I've only played Cyberspace with KCC, but her play this game seems consistent with her town play that game. I feel like my opposing cases is bad for the town at this point though, so if you think you can build a wagon go ahead and I won't say anything against it.
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Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
'Her play is consistent with her town game, but I won't say anything against the wagon if it forms'.
I have a light town read on Asenion because of the almost complete lack of self-awareness he's displayed this game. There's no sense of self-preservation - just an almost blatant scummy behavior that I have trouble reconciling with scum, as contradictory as it may seem.
But that post makes me cringe a bit.
I think it's more likely that our scum are lurking out the day and hoping that we panic due to the incoming deadline and either no lynch or rush a bad lynch through.
I'd just like DRey to answer my request so I can explain the /why/ behind it, and what it means to me. I had a bit of a eureka moment earlier, and I think he can clarify it.
I can stay alive if I need to, but frankly staying alive isn't really my objective. My objective is to figure out who the scum is and get the lynched.
I agree that the majority of the scum are probably lurking. Hence why my vote is on one right now.
Given daytalk and how ******* passive this town has been lately I'm running off the opposite assumption: I think that most of our scum are active (as in at least four and possibly *all* of DRey, Che, AG, FO, and kpaca are town, with the last three being most likely to be scum)... and the only active player I have a firm town read on is desCoures*, who is a strong analyst but not good at driving the game forward.
That means that our scum are likely to be some combination of (KCC/Voxx, Cyouni, Nis, you - listed from most to least likely scum). It also means lynching scum is going to be HELL, considering that dC isn't pushing (same goes for you if you're town)
Yeah, I wish I had seen the earlier parts of Cyberspace. It looked like a great game.
@Taredas: I've only played Cyberspace with KCC, but her play this game seems consistent with her town play that game. I feel like my opposing cases is bad for the town at this point though, so if you think you can build a wagon go ahead and I won't say anything against it.
Went back and iso'ed KCC in Cyberspace. It's more reminiscent of her play here than some of her other town games (Innistrad, Cirque, Chosen), but after my reading I still think she's playing closest to StarCraft (where she was scum, and note that SC is most likely to be representative of her modern scum play given that her other scum games are either old or multiscum).
Also, if you've got a better wagon - START PUSHING IT. I can excuse one or two players not doing anything D1. I'm not about to forgive HALF THE ******* GAME doing so. Especially not the player who's done this at least TWICE this game.
Question: Who, other than Forgotten One, do you think is likely to be scum?
'Her play is consistent with her town game, but I won't say anything against the wagon if it forms'.
I have a light town read on Asenion because of the almost complete lack of self-awareness he's displayed this game. There's no sense of self-preservation - just an almost blatant scummy behavior that I have trouble reconciling with scum, as contradictory as it may seem.
But that post makes me cringe a bit.
I think it's more likely that our scum are lurking out the day and hoping that we panic due to the incoming deadline and either no lynch or rush a bad lynch through.
I'd just like DRey to answer my request so I can explain the /why/ behind it, and what it means to me. I had a bit of a eureka moment earlier, and I think he can clarify it.
Not sold, especially from you. I have questions for you back in post 220 concerning your post 215, I want them answered.
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All right. I'm getting fed up with this. I can't do **** if my cases are going to disappear into the ether because everyone is either inactive or goes "meh". I mean, D1 is my weakest day, but at least I'm *trying* to do something. Is anyone going to join/rebut me or find scum somewhere I'm not looking and work to convince people, or should I just replace out now and save myself the trouble of shouting into the wind for the rest of the game before the scum win on account of apathy? I mean, it's the weekend, but *still*.
Mod: Please prod Che Guavara
Mod: Please prod/replace kpaca and AtheistGod
I had to actually go back and look, and just started to laugh.
Welcome to my day ones. I'm going to use 'I think', 'feel', 'probably' and all kinds of things that people don't like.
I generally pick someone that my gut screams at me is scum and latch onto them. After I get a flip, I re-read the game and can contribute meaningfully. Can look at any of my minis to get an idea for how I tend to play in them - Hunger Games is only one I can think of off top of head. Maybe OTR2, though that was 7 players.
Quote from Taredas »
as in at least four and possibly *all* of DRey, Che, AG, FO, and kpaca are town
You pretty much just named my scum reads here, minus DRey. Probably minus DRey. I'm still waiting on him to answer my request regarding exact win condition.
Che, FO, Kpaca feel the most like scum to me.
I think Nis is probably town because of how he stuck to his convictions regarding the AG case when KCC attacked him for it. There was no weak backpedal or flailing, which I'd have expected from him as scum after his earlier game performance.
I don't think I'm willing to lynch KCC today. Both KCC and dC are making me uncomfortable, but it's just not something I'm willing to lynch them on day one for.
Cyouni scum is possible. He's lacking the pressure/attacking drive that I've seen from him in previous (town) games.
But it ultimately comes down to the fact that we have 5 days to lynch someone.
I'll try to build an actual case on Che tomorrow when I have more time, but it's largely just gut.
I will say that I'd rather you not replace out, even if I completely understand the frustration. I'm near useless before I get a flip to analyse, though if I'm comfortable writing DRey off as town after his response, I could have something based on that wagon.
Also, @KCC - Cyan Goo is referring to the color, not the person, I think. I went and looked at the source material for his role, and it was all Orange Goo, Gold Goo, etc. So yeah. I laughed though, since I agree that a friendly hugging Cyan Goo is amusing
I told you I'm a reactionary poster. My activity level is directly dependant on the rest of the game and how much people respond to me.
Why do I need more than one scum target at a time? If you really want a list, I am suspicious of Che, AG, FO, kpaca, Taredas, and possibly Nis; but in no particular order. (I've been engrossed in my other game lately and Nis is in that one two, not sure which Nis I'm thinking of atm until I re-read and refresh myself.) I'm suspicious of you just because you have too many things in your favor for being town. Anyone who stands out that much as a townsfolk might be scum, but you will probably get night killed eventually if you are town.
I would be fine with lynching any of those people besides Taredas. I kind of think we have done all we can for Day 1 and we need to pick a lynch. More claims at this point without a flip to back up our reads might be detrimental.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
EBWODP: Just checked, and yes it's this game's Nis that I feel suspicious of. He's not actually in the other game anyway lol. Dunno why I was confused.
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Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
@dC: I think DRey is misunderstood because I just got out of a game with him where we nearly lynched him because we didn't understand his mindset, and he was town. Also look at his past games where he gets mislynched semi-often. Frankly, I don't think traditional reads work very well on DRey. On the other hand, I am not speaking out in his defense precisely because I don't want to stall the most successful wagon on a pretty uneventful day. Even lynching someone who I would place at 60/40 odds of being town is better than stalling till deadline with no results. I also think it's completely reasonable to establish lynch and claim protocols regarding a multi-voter and it seems a bit silly to basically give Taredas the ability to make anyone claim any time he wants. I would rather that be a group decision.
Fair enough on Taredas, but I don't like the hands-off approach you're taking towards DRey here. It also rings a bit inconsistent with how you're pressuring him re: his win condition right now.
I told you I'm a reactionary poster. My activity level is directly dependant on the rest of the game and how much people respond to me.
Why do I need more than one scum target at a time? If you really want a list, I am suspicious of Che, AG, FO, kpaca, Taredas, and possibly Nis; but in no particular order. (I've been engrossed in my other game lately and Nis is in that one two, not sure which Nis I'm thinking of atm until I re-read and refresh myself.) I'm suspicious of you just because you have too many things in your favor for being town. Anyone who stands out that much as a townsfolk might be scum, but you will probably get night killed eventually if you are town.
I would be fine with lynching any of those people besides Taredas. I kind of think we have done all we can for Day 1 and we need to pick a lynch. More claims at this point without a flip to back up our reads might be detrimental.
...wait, why were you suspicious of Taredas again? And kpaca, for that matter.
And your suspect list is half the game. What the heck?
Asenion, I'm reading DRey as playing differently under pressure from how he did in Ataghan - he was argumentative and defended himself strongly there, while here I'd characterize his response to pressure as looking for a diversion. Do you disagree? If so, why?
Nis, dC: Same question for you.
You'd be asking the wrong person here. I was dead on day 2, way before DRey ever replaced in, and mostly skipped his posts while skimming the thread in later days. His posts are actively painful to read a lot of the time.
That means that our scum are likely to be some combination of (KCC/Voxx, Cyouni, Nis, you - listed from most to least likely scum). It also means lynching scum is going to be HELL, considering that dC isn't pushing (same goes for you if you're town)
* - Since post 150 or so, before you ask.
What do you mean by this? I feel I've been pushing plenty. Not everyone has three votes, you know.
Also, while I think you're town, you hopping around like this isn't really helping. At this point, you've done the HoSx3 thing on nearly the entire playerbase of this game. As for your KCC case, you have good points on how non-committal and careful her early posts are, but your points on her later posts feel like reaching. She has good reason to be questioning Nis at least. If Nis ever flips town, then yes, it seems pretty questionable, but right now I'm not seeing it as a reason to conclude that she's scum.
He's playing similarly to how he played in Ataghan. In other words, in a way that I find difficult not to read as scummy. I'm trying to keep a more open mind about him this game just in case, but I have noticed him buddying me a little.
That's horrendously non-committal on DRey.
What do you actually think about players not named DRey and AtheistGod, come to think of it?
@DRey
Re: Your claim - that seems somewhat verifiable, and rather powerful if town and working exactly the way you say it does. That being said, then, please explain to me a couple of things.
I'm Cyan goo. My flavor is that I'm a pretty friendly goy(I created this pun myself :cool2:) so I like to hug everyone. However people dislike hugging me because I have dripping problem. I'm against the mafia because they are the opposite of me, so I dislike them and will show them how to behave.
My ability is that I can hug a player, that player will get covered in sticky cyan goo and everyone that targets him will also get painted, the mod will inform on the thread everyone that's sticky at the beginning of each day.
If you are sticky, and the mod says in-thread at the beginning of day who is sticky, why have we not seen any such thing in-thread today?
My wincon mentions more than one scum group, so I can confirm we are against more than one mafia group or there's neutrals out there. The main mafia group is the Goo Mafia.
...do you seriously think there is more than one mafia group in a mini? Also, while I see you breadcrumbed your role name in your very first post of the game, I don't see you hinting at all about multiple mafia groups or neutrals in a single one of your posts. Didn't you think that should have been something you should have mentioned previously?
BTW you guys suck royal ass for making me claim, there's absolutely no reason for this wagon, in fact I want to know from everyone on my wagon why I'm being voted in the next post, particularly AG.
I was voting you because behaviourally you've been one of the scummiest people this game, with countless groundless-to-outright-inaccurate assertions, liberal barning, and insufficient explanation for any of your actions.
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I'm not going to move my vote from DRey yet until he replies, but I'm most willing to lynch Forgotten One today, especially given his complete disappearance - he hasn't posted a word for quite a while, despite saying in his last post that he would answer some of the question KCC and I had for him later that day. If DRey replies to my satisfaction, Che (or his replacement) also need to come under scrutiny for his support of the DRey wagon with some vague assertion as to having something that might 'prove DRey scum' which he never clarified, even when I questioned him on it.
I'd also like Voxxicus to clarify why he feels 'uncomfortable' about me and KCC.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
'Her play is consistent with her town game, but I won't say anything against the wagon if it forms'.
I have a light town read on Asenion because of the almost complete lack of self-awareness he's displayed this game. There's no sense of self-preservation - just an almost blatant scummy behavior that I have trouble reconciling with scum, as contradictory as it may seem.
But that post makes me cringe a bit.
I think it's more likely that our scum are lurking out the day and hoping that we panic due to the incoming deadline and either no lynch or rush a bad lynch through.
I'd just like DRey to answer my request so I can explain the /why/ behind it, and what it means to me. I had a bit of a eureka moment earlier, and I think he can clarify it.
Do you really believe that scummy behavior is a town tell? To me, that looks simply like an excuse to clear town.
Asenion is giving me both town and scum vibes. It's possibly just difference in views but it's something that is nagging at me. My little brain isn't suited for this; punching and killing, now that's much more preferable.
I want to know the truth from DRey because it's relevant to how we interact with him in the future. He doesn't seem like scum to me, but he could be a variety of flavors of neutral. His claim left me feeling like he was lying to us and/or leaving something out.
I posted my extended scum list because Taredas asked for it. Suspicious =/= to thinking those people are scum right now, but I'm watching them more closely.
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Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I want to know the truth from DRey because it's relevant to how we interact with him in the future. He doesn't seem like scum to me, but he could be a variety of flavors of neutral. His claim left me feeling like he was lying to us and/or leaving something out.
I posted my extended scum list because Taredas asked for it. Suspicious =/= to thinking those people are scum right now, but I'm watching them more closely.
Not an answer. You must have some reason to be suspicious of kpaca-now-RobRoy, and I'm really wondering why you're suspicious at all of Taredas.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I explained the Taredas one. (It's basically because he has too many "town-tells" and I want to watch out for being double crossed.) kpaca is a suspicion because he has disappeared as he started to get pressured and his content has been unhelpful.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I explained the Taredas one. (It's basically because he has too many "town-tells" and I want to watch out for being double crossed.) kpaca is a suspicion because he has disappeared as he started to get pressured and his content has been unhelpful.
Well, I'm here now. Have some stuff to do in the morning, will hopefully be able to post some content in the afternoon.
Was the deadline pushed back due to replacements, or are we still three days away from it?
-In which AG is absolutely right in commenting that this looks like DRey trying to get out of his wagon by pushing attention elsewhere.
Or it's a null tell because both town and scum ask for lists all the time. Furthermore, DRey had three votes on him when he did this, all accumulated in 4 posts. Sure it was a wagon, but you're acting like DRey was trying to deflect while under significant pressure. There were 64 posts between the time dC voted for DRey (vote #3) and DRey's post that AG had quoted. Attention had shifted away from DRey and towards Che.
Heck, you even respond to DRey's post while addressing DRey's request for scum lists. You didn't even hint that you thought DRey was deflecting. But only later do you say that you felt the same way.
Uhh... no. Not even close. There is obviously differences between scum-scum interactions and other types of interactions. Looking for those is a big part of playing mafia. -And you obviously know this, so why are you playing stupid?
Because I just can't see AG's post in the way you're claiming to see it. I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong and possibly reading the entire situation incorrectly.
So I went back and reread the entire build up of DRey's wagon and what happened around AG's post. Guess what: I again just couldn't see what you're seeing. You're either reading too much into AG's post and giving it more meaning that what AG intended, or you're being contrary to me just to be contrary.
In fact, DRey even jumped onto the AG wagon and you didn't even so much as call it out as OMGUS. You didn't even call out Asenion for blatantly jumping onto the AG wagon for the entirely wrong reason. It's like you took selective umbrage that anybody could dare find AG's behavior and contentless posts as signs of scum.
What do you actually think about players not named DRey and AtheistGod, come to think of it?
I'm beginning to think KCC isn't just merely giving AG undue significance but instead trying to force some scenario to make me look like I'm scum because I called out a bad post for what it was.
I'm concerned about kpaca and Che going dark. I'm beginning to suspect that both of them are scum and are willing to let us tear each other apart.
I'm Cyan goo. My flavor is that I'm a pretty friendly goy(I created this pun myself :cool2:) so I like to hug everyone. However people dislike hugging me because I have dripping problem. I'm against the mafia because they are the opposite of me, so I dislike them and will show them how to behave.
My ability is that I can hug a player, that player will get covered in sticky cyan goo and everyone that targets him will also get painted, the mod will inform on the thread everyone that's sticky at the beginning of each day.
My wincon mentions more than one scum group, so I can confirm we are against more than one mafia group or there's neutrals out there. The main mafia group is the Goo Mafia.
BTW you guys suck royal ass for making me claim, there's absolutely no reason for this wagon, in fact I want to know from everyone on my wagon why I'm being voted in the next post, particularly AG.
Quick notes. I have a good feeling about Asenion, and still-good-but-not-as-good feelings on desCoures and Voxx. Current bad feelings on Nis, TFO, Che and DRey. I need to do a better reread at some point to see how bad my feelings on DRey are, as despite his push on me/kpaca I don't recall seeing enough to want him lynched. Accordingly, I will unvote for now.
@Wincon I asked for clarification and Xyre forbade me of quoting my wincon, that being said I will clarify some things. I was in fact trolled there's not two scumteams, my wincon is like that because of Goo Mafia (game that I never read, so I have no idea why). The second thing is that I want to end all this conversation about wincons, because of a few reasons, first I think wincon analysis is against the spirit of mafia, I've been scum in this position before (town were analyzing the wincon) and the game was even canceled because of it, I don't want to risk any debacle again. I don't think it's fair to beat the scum because of wincons anyway. I value honesty and fair play in my life, and I wouldn't feel happy if we won because of that. I want to beat the scum fair and square.
Really now? Fishing AND neutral speculation when the function of DRey's role is blatantly obvious?
DRey, do NOT answer Asen's questions here.
I disagree about the nature of Asen questions, I think they are legit and I see pro-towness in them however I will not answer anyway because you asked me and because I've already explained more than enough, I've claimed fully, more clarification will only help the scum at this point imho.
Nis is my strongest read now. F1 is a maybe. You, I'm more hesitant on now, but I'm still not convinced on your claim. The non-AG lurkers are other possibilities.
This is a very telling post if KCC ever flips scum. In fact this feels so wrong to me that I'm almost ready to clear AG because of this, almost. There's no way you would link yourself that strongly to him if you were both scum.
@DRey
...because neither of those two statements seem true about your role.
I don't see myself as strong as you people seem to believe but I said that for two reasons: mostly to breadcrumb a power role and hopefully make people shy away from my wagon, I really really didn't want to claim and because I'm really powerless after claimed, because now I will be roleblocked/redirected/killed/something_else_I_have_no_idea and don't catch any scum while at it. I was hoping to catch at least one scum with my powers.
If you are sticky, and the mod says in-thread at the beginning of day who is sticky, why have we not seen any such thing in-thread today?
I hug people and they get the sticky status, this doesn't work until I've actively hugged someone. I suppose I will never appear in the thread since I'm naturally sticky.
...do you seriously think there is more than one mafia group in a mini? Also, while I see you breadcrumbed your role name in your very first post of the game, I don't see you hinting at all about multiple mafia groups or neutrals in a single one of your posts. Didn't you think that should have been something you should have mentioned previously?
In retrospect you are correct, I should have noticed it make no sense to have two scumgroups in a mini and should have breadcrumbed it earlier. I didn't because I only noticed this when I went to reread my role PM when I was going to claim. Anyway, I got fooled by the mod, I suck. Sorry.
The Goo Mafia is not friendly and welcoming, unlike me. But now knowing my wincon was just joke, I don't even know if that's true or not. I'm not a neutral though.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Do you really believe that scummy behavior is a town tell? To me, that looks simply like an excuse to clear town.
Asenion is giving me both town and scum vibes. It's possibly just difference in views but it's something that is nagging at me. My little brain isn't suited for this; punching and killing, now that's much more preferable.
So you are really never addressing the questions you are being asked are you?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@AG have you played mafia before? If yes can you at least give me some links of your games?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
To answer the question people are asking - there will be a 1-day deadline extension for RobRoy's benefit, but that's it. I'll be prodding people aggressively up to the deadline, but the responsibility for dealing with the deadline itself is yours.
Since deadlines from this point on are going to be even more stringent, I suggest you get used to it.
EDIT: And on that note, I'm prodding Forgotten One.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I told you I'm a reactionary poster. My activity level is directly dependant on the rest of the game and how much people respond to me.
Why do I need more than one scum target at a time? If you really want a list, I am suspicious of Che, AG, FO, kpaca, Taredas, and possibly Nis; but in no particular order. (I've been engrossed in my other game lately and Nis is in that one two, not sure which Nis I'm thinking of atm until I re-read and refresh myself.) I'm suspicious of you just because you have too many things in your favor for being town. Anyone who stands out that much as a townsfolk might be scum, but you will probably get night killed eventually if you are town.
I wanted a fuller picture of where you stand, and of which players you would be willing to lynch at deadline. Thank you.
Except, of course, for hauling out the Too Townie fallacy. That's been a bad argument for years.
Do you really believe that scummy behavior is a town tell? To me, that looks simply like an excuse to clear town.
Asenion is giving me both town and scum vibes. It's possibly just difference in views but it's something that is nagging at me. My little brain isn't suited for this; punching and killing, now that's much more preferable.
You'd be asking the wrong person here. I was dead on day 2, way before DRey ever replaced in, and mostly skipped his posts while skimming the thread in later days. His posts are actively painful to read a lot of the time.
What do you mean by this? I feel I've been pushing plenty. Not everyone has three votes, you know.
It's playstyle-related rather than any indicator of alignment (or votes, for that matter); you generally sit back and analyze rather than make a Cyan-esque push on any players. It's reasonably effective at finding scum, but from what I saw in Ataghan it's not especially good at convincing other players to agree with you. In a deadline situation, that can be a bit of a problem.
Also, while I think you're town, you hopping around like this isn't really helping. At this point, you've done the HoSx3 thing on nearly the entire playerbase of this game.
Nearly the entire isn't quite right (closer to half, and two of those were at least partially "shape up and start playing better"), but I've been more spread out that I would like. There's a couple reasons for that: the lack of activity, general reluctance to bandwagon*, and slow pace here really hampers my scumhunting, and I've gotten cold feet at least twice (you're probably town, and Che's final response to my case could come from VI-town).
I mean, for me the most important function of D1 is to metaphorically smash apart the playerbase with a strong case or two and see what the pieces look like so you can figure out who's scum given player flips. But that doesn't work when you're swinging into a blob because half of the other players are apathetic.
* - I'm pretty sure MTGS is less bandwagon-happy than MS is in general, but this game seems averse to bandwagons even by MTGS standards.
As for your KCC case, you have good points on how non-committal and careful her early posts are, but your points on her later posts feel like reaching. She has good reason to be questioning Nis at least. If Nis ever flips town, then yes, it seems pretty questionable, but right now I'm not seeing it as a reason to conclude that she's scum.
She has good reason to be going after Nis as either alignment, and the way she's doing it makes me think it comes from a scum mindset.
I had to actually go back and look, and just started to laugh.
Welcome to my day ones. I'm going to use 'I think', 'feel', 'probably' and all kinds of things that people don't like.
I generally pick someone that my gut screams at me is scum and latch onto them. After I get a flip, I re-read the game and can contribute meaningfully. Can look at any of my minis to get an idea for how I tend to play in them - Hunger Games is only one I can think of off top of head. Maybe OTR2, though that was 7 players.
You pretty much just named my scum reads here, minus DRey. Probably minus DRey. I'm still waiting on him to answer my request regarding exact win condition.
Che, FO, Kpaca feel the most like scum to me.
I think Nis is probably town because of how he stuck to his convictions regarding the AG case when KCC attacked him for it. There was no weak backpedal or flailing, which I'd have expected from him as scum after his earlier game performance.
I don't think I'm willing to lynch KCC today. Both KCC and dC are making me uncomfortable, but it's just not something I'm willing to lynch them on day one for.
Cyouni scum is possible. He's lacking the pressure/attacking drive that I've seen from him in previous (town) games.
But it ultimately comes down to the fact that we have 5 days to lynch someone.
I'll try to build an actual case on Che tomorrow when I have more time, but it's largely just gut.
I will say that I'd rather you not replace out, even if I completely understand the frustration. I'm near useless before I get a flip to analyse, though if I'm comfortable writing DRey off as town after his response, I could have something based on that wagon.
Also, @KCC - Cyan Goo is referring to the color, not the person, I think. I went and looked at the source material for his role, and it was all Orange Goo, Gold Goo, etc. So yeah. I laughed though, since I agree that a friendly hugging Cyan Goo is amusing
I need sleep, 4 am comes early.
I'll take a look at your past games.
Wait, you say Cyouni is aggressive as town? Lemme check that - I've had him backburnered for a while now (much like KCC until I decided that I needed to be sure one way or the other). Maybe I should move him up to the front.
I disagree about the nature of Asen questions, I think they are legit and I see pro-towness in them however I will not answer anyway because you asked me and because I've already explained more than enough, I've claimed fully, more clarification will only help the scum at this point imho.
The really concerning part of Asen's questions was raising the possibility of a neutral; I'm used to that sort of question coming from neutral-hunting scum.
I was hoping after I saw the claim that I could shut down enough discussion to leave the scum somewhat in the dark as to exactly what it does. Probably too late, but if so, oh well.
This is a very telling post if KCC ever flips scum. In fact this feels so wrong to me that I'm almost ready to clear AG because of this, almost. There's no way you would link yourself that strongly to him if you were both scum.
My impression of KCC from my reading is that she defends players she thinks are town regardless of alignment, and that these players are likely to actually be town. Never say never with regards to scum arguments, but if KCC is scum then AG is likely to be town.
@Tar now this is a question I totally see scum making. This reads to me "hey, do we have to kill you N1, or we can wait until later?"
Yes, yes it could be. And Cyouni was already near the top of my scumdar given that he's *also* been standing off to the side most of the game. And Voxx has a possible meta catch. Hmm.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Alright, what I was looking for with the win condition thing is the fact that I think all of the town win conditions come from the town role PM's in your source game. Mine does, and it's slightly ambiguous whether or not we're looking for a scum team or multiple due to that - but when I re-read DRey's statement and saw him mentioning the Goo's, I kind of wanted him to claim specifically to see if it matched the town win condition in the Goo mafia. It probably does, and I think he's town.
But I'm not going to go down the win condition route anymore, I guess. Just thought I had something that would confirm him as town, even if I guess I agree it goes against the spirit of things.
@dC
You and KCC both make me uncomfortable, for lack of a better word, but for different reasons. Some of your earlier posts just felt like my own scum game - questions didn't feel like you genuinely cared about the answer to them, merely were just asking them for the sake of asking. Plus tunneling on DRey when it's pretty likely he's town at this point. I've liked some of your more recent posts though, and am not willing to lynch you currently - just...uncomfortable fits best. KCC is a mix of playstyle differences and not especially liking the people she's attacked (Drey, Nis).
I want to lynch Che. FO is an alright option, and I could see Cyouni - I just generally am a bit more hesitant to lynch stronger players on day one, even if maybe that's a bad habit. Will try to actually case Che later this evening after I eat, just was responding to a few things quick. But him vanishing as deadline approaches, and sitting on Drey with that OOOH SPOOKY NOISES I HAVE REASONS I THINK HE'S SCUM bit is a Thing.
KCC, Cyouni, Forgotten One (most likely to be scum of the lurkers, especially if exactly one lurker is scum).
Bonus section!
Probably town: desCoures, you
Reluctant to lynch today: Che (I can see FO being scum without Che, I'm having a hard time seeing the reverse), Asenion (would be probable town if not for responses to my cases)
DRey: AG, FO, RR/Kpaca
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
There's no need to be exactly 3 guys, and if you can provide reasons it will be very much appreciated.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I was going to post that my Top 3 was Voxxious, KCC, Asenion, but re-reading Drey's claim makes me suspicious; it seems self-contradictory:
Quote from Drey »
I'm Cyan goo. My flavor is that I'm a pretty friendly goy(I created this pun myself :cool2:) so I like to hug everyone. However people dislike hugging me because I have dripping problem. I'm against the mafia because they are the opposite of me, so I dislike them and will show them how to behave.
My ability is that I can hug a player, that player will get covered in sticky cyan goo and everyone that targets him will also get painted, the mod will inform on the thread everyone that's sticky at the beginning of each day.
My wincon mentions more than one scum group, so I can confirm we are against more than one mafia group or there's neutrals out there. The main mafia group is the Goo Mafia.
So Drey is goo, he is supposed to be the opposite of the Mafia, yet the main mafia group is also goo....
Wait, you say Cyouni is aggressive as town? Lemme check that - I've had him backburnered for a while now (much like KCC until I decided that I needed to be sure one way or the other). Maybe I should move him up to the front.
I've been really feeling meh recently. Part of it's probably the fact that I got sick for about a week.
But if you want to take a look at meta, feel free. Blog link's to the side.
I want to know the truth from DRey because it's relevant to how we interact with him in the future. He doesn't seem like scum to me, but he could be a variety of flavors of neutral. His claim left me feeling like he was lying to us and/or leaving something out.
How so? No, you don't get to dismiss half of my case just by saying it's "horrible" - show your work. (Especially your comments on Che and your exit from the initial Nis pressure, which are phrased in a manner that I associate with scum.)
Secondly, the Nis case is completely about motivation, even if I haven't explicitly spelled it out here. -I analyzed the AG post, and both Asenion and Nis responded. Asenion looked through the reasoning presented, acknowledged some of what I pointed out as being a good point, and responded to the rest in a way that shows he was considering the issues. Based on this, Asenion is more likely town than not. Nis, however, just waved his hand at it and said, "No, AG's post has no content or anything worth looking at." What town motivation exists for that? Is he tunnelvisioned? -I'm not seeing that after only two AG posts -Nis isn't Cyan.
Nis could just disagree with your assessment. Why can't town genuinely believe that AG's post doesn't have enough content to go off of?
I suspect Nis is *wrong* about AG (some of AG's posts look like classic lurkish VI-town). I'm not sure that Nis is scum because of it.
And what's worse is Nis acting like he doesn't understand some basic mafia concepts like interaction analysis. There's no town motivation for acting stupid to push a case. The scum motive is obvious though, as is all of this, which is why I haven't bothered diving into it all explicitly.
If I'm skipping through too much for you though, I'm sorry. -I just finished with Cyberspace, where we had an amazing group of players, so I may be a bit spoiled with being able to jump over the minutiae. -I'll try to slow it down a bit and walk through things more.
Since the town games I checked from you before were either Basics or Chosen, I went back and double-checked Cyberspace. In Cyberspace there was a more *active* bunch of players, including several game drivers. Here we've got a bunch of players who are new/lurking/not good at driving the game. Nobody else is going to do it for you here.
But still: your posts here don't look like your posts in Innistrad/Cirque/Chosen. Moreover (and this is the important part), your case on Nis reminds me of your (fabricated) cases in scum games (especially StarCraft, and since it's the most recent scum game and both Amistarian II and Too Much Scum were multiscum it's most likely to be representative).
Also, you may want to read a bit of Days 3 & 4 of that game if you don't think I tend to get a bit of an attitude with scum who respond in this particular way to questioning. Because I do, because it drives me crazy.
I'd been focusing on your D1 interactions while reading you (since a fair bit of your play relies on flips, I wanted to see how you interacted before flips were available); now that I've looked at D4 of Cyberspace (just D4 for time) - you *did* get an attitude when Az busted out a scum defense: you got sarcastic.
Maybe you're just being sarcastic to a player you think is scum using a kind of defense that annoys you. But that poses another question: Why the certainty on Nis being scum this early? From what I've seen in my reading, you're usually reluctant to just go ahead and call a player scum D1. (Though let me check your Wheat case in Newb I-can't-remember-OTOH to double-check.)
I was going to post that my Top 3 was Voxxious, KCC, Asenion, but re-reading Drey's claim makes me suspicious; it seems self-contradictory:
So Drey is goo, he is supposed to be the opposite of the Mafia, yet the main mafia group is also goo....
Uhh... have you read Goo Mafia? Like, at all? Even the first post of that game should explain exactly why this particular "argument" is complete prattle.
---
DRey: AG, FO, RR/Kpaca
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
Cyouni: Nis, Asenion
FO: Voxx, KCC, Asen
@Tar: I didn't say you were scum for being too townie, I said you were suspicious and I wanted to watch your actions more closely than others. I've been tricked before by people I clear on Day 1 and never worry about again.
@Cyouni: I was clearly referring to the previous post, not the one posted just before mine. That statement was in response to someone asking why I voted, which was because of the previous bad post. I hadn't taken the new post into account when answering a question about past actions before it. Please don't try to take things out of context.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Alright, what I was looking for with the win condition thing is the fact that I think all of the town win conditions come from the town role PM's in your source game. Mine does, and it's slightly ambiguous whether or not we're looking for a scum team or multiple due to that - but when I re-read DRey's statement and saw him mentioning the Goo's, I kind of wanted him to claim specifically to see if it matched the town win condition in the Goo mafia. It probably does, and I think he's town.
But I'm not going to go down the win condition route anymore, I guess. Just thought I had something that would confirm him as town, even if I guess I agree it goes against the spirit of things.
Neat.
--
Got in a quick reread of DRey. Some weird stuff there. Starting with his very first post:
Ok, I'm town, so I'm gonna claim to start discussion, first thing I want to say is that I'm a color, so the mod obviously got my role wrong, because from what I read we should be players from these forums, not colors and I'm a color. Now please don't lunch me. I'm also a goo, but I don't know the importance of that.
Now the first important question, how do all you guys being the "awful players pool"? I'm outraged myself because I should totally be playing with the best considering I'm so awesome.
First off, the flavour of the game had been posted in several places. Roles were inspired by games of the last 5 years, so DRey must have known that his role was from a Goo Mafia or something, and it isn't that much effort to go and locate it. So, DRey: why the confusion? Secondly, if you were confused, why did you just throw a partial claim out there, instead of, say, PMing the mod?
Also, can you point me to your most recent Day 1s as both scum and town? I'm inclined to vote for you, but want to check meta and get a response on the above points before risking that.
Or it's a null tell because both town and scum ask for lists all the time. Furthermore, DRey had three votes on him when he did this, all accumulated in 4 posts. Sure it was a wagon, but you're acting like DRey was trying to deflect while under significant pressure. There were 64 posts between the time dC voted for DRey (vote #3) and DRey's post that AG had quoted. Attention had shifted away from DRey and towards Che.
3 votes was the largest wagon at the time, and it's not an insignificant number in a mini. Also, he wasn't just "asking for a list," he was asking for list with the intent of just lynching whoever appeared most (and while that's appropriate now, it wasn't at the time). Still, if you want to disagree with AG's reasoning, that's fine. The problem is you were just acting like there was no reasoning given at all.
Heck, you even respond to DRey's post while addressing DRey's request for scum lists. You didn't even hint that you thought DRey was deflecting. But only later do you say that you felt the same way.
That's because I didn't want to tip my hand too much before he responded to my question. -But that is why I was questioning him there; I read it the exact same way AG did.
Because I just can't see AG's post in the way you're claiming to see it. I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong and possibly reading the entire situation incorrectly.
So I went back and reread the entire build up of DRey's wagon and what happened around AG's post. Guess what: I again just couldn't see what you're seeing. You're either reading too much into AG's post and giving it more meaning that what AG intended, or you're being contrary to me just to be contrary.
Wait, what does any of this have to do with you saying, "isn't that the case for anybody who has any sort of interaction?" -like you don't understand that interaction analysis is a useful thing in mafia?
*@future Tar (current Tar just skip this for now, it'll make sense later): This part. Look at this response and what he is responding to.
In fact, DRey even jumped onto the AG wagon and you didn't even so much as call it out as OMGUS. You didn't even call out Asenion for blatantly jumping onto the AG wagon for the entirely wrong reason. It's like you took selective umbrage that anybody could dare find AG's behavior and contentless posts as signs of scum.
DRey does things like that as town, so it was irrelevant. Asenion's reasoning I understood, even if I disagree with it. You, on the other hand, dismissed the entire post as contentless (when there was clearly content, including original thoughts) while making blatantly incorrect statements about it (saying he gave no reasoning on DRey, when he did).
BTW, finger pointing isn't earning you any points.
How so? No, you don't get to dismiss half of my case just by saying it's "horrible" - show your work. (Especially your comments on Che and your exit from the initial Nis pressure, which are phrased in a manner that I associate with scum.)
There is nothing to show. You are completely wrong and I think the posts are self-explanatory.
Nis could just disagree with your assessment. Why can't town genuinely believe that AG's post doesn't have enough content to go off of?
Because it isn't true? -Like I said, it's one thing to disagree with AG's points, but to say they don't exist (especially after they are pointed out) is just disingenuous.
But still: your posts here don't look like your posts in Innistrad/Cirque/Chosen. Moreover (and this is the important part), your case on Nis reminds me of your (fabricated) cases in scum games (especially StarCraft, and since it's the most recent scum game and both Amistarian II and Too Much Scum were multiscum it's most likely to be representative).
Yeah, those 3 games probably aren't the best sample. It's two basics and an IRC style game; I went into those games expecting to have to hold everyone's hand and teach them while playing. -This is a standard mini, I shouldn't have to explain basic concepts.
Why the certainty on Nis being scum this early? From what I've seen in my reading, you're usually reluctant to just go ahead and call a player scum D1.
-Because Nis is doing the little scum dance with me where he responds line by line inconsistently with the rest of the conversation, while twisting words and playing stupid along the way. Here, I'll even go up and mark an important part for you. (You probably saw it already though, so just go back there).
And while, yes, I tend to be more cautious on D1, because I don't usually have enough info to work with, that's not always true. -In cyberspace, I had two players in my obvscum pile D1 and a third close to it. It just depends on the game and the reactions.
Wait, what does any of this have to do with you saying, "isn't that the case for anybody who has any sort of interaction?" -like you don't understand that interaction analysis is a useful thing in mafia?
Let's back up. AG lumped DRey and Che together. Even if I give you that AG provided reasoning on DRey (on which I still don't agree with you) that doesn't mean he provided any sort of reasoning on Che. Replace Che with any other name in AG's post and it's the same thing: trying to tie DRey and another player together without reasoning. If AG had actually pointed out suspicious interactions then I'd see what you're saying. As it stands just claiming that two players interacted does not a case make. That was what I was trying to get at.
Because it isn't true? -Like I said, it's one thing to disagree with AG's points, but to say they don't exist (especially after they are pointed out) is just disingenuous.
I'd be guilty of this if it was AG making the accusation. As it is, you're using your interpretation of AG's words as evidence that my interpretation is wrong. Furthermore, in the twoposts AG has made since that post there is little to clarify his meaning.
I mean I pressure voted him, called him out for his naked vote on Tare, pointed out what I believe to be a completely horrible post (and you've got to give me that he at least hits Che for no reason), and clarified his completely misunderstanding on my point. AG hasn't ever provided a defense or supplied reasoning for his Tare vote and his only other post just throws more suspicion around, this time at Asenion. Why in the world are you grilling me when obvscum AG is just skating by?
Yeah, those 3 games probably aren't the best sample. It's two basics and an IRC style game; I went into those games expecting to have to hold everyone's hand and teach them while playing. -This is a standard mini, I shouldn't have to explain basic concepts.
I read this as, "That's not my real meta so it doesn't apply." Convenient.
Uhh... have you read Goo Mafia? Like, at all? Even the first post of that game should explain exactly why this particular "argument" is complete prattle.
I had not read Goo Mafia, but after a quick read of the setup Drey's claim still doesn't really make sense to me in the context of this game. In Goo Mafia, everyone was goo of different colors, so him being Cyan Goo makes some sense. What I don't get is the statement that the Mafia are also goo... this isn't 'Goo Mafia Redux'. So if we believe Drey, then we have some number of Mafia Goo out there... really? If this other team were a Goo Cult and he is the anti-Goo cult (of which there were two opposing Goo cult leaders in Goo mafia that changed people's colors), then I might actually believe him. I might believe him even more if he was the Goo Cult.... but I don't expect him to claim that. Either way you slice it, Drey's claim seems off and that makes me suspicious where I might not have been before.
I had not read Goo Mafia, but after a quick read of the setup Drey's claim still doesn't really make sense to me in the context of this game. In Goo Mafia, everyone was goo of different colors, so him being Cyan Goo makes some sense. What I don't get is the statement that the Mafia are also goo... this isn't 'Goo Mafia Redux'. So if we believe Drey, then we have some number of Mafia Goo out there... really? If this other team were a Goo Cult and he is the anti-Goo cult (of which there were two opposing Goo cult leaders in Goo mafia that changed people's colors), then I might actually believe him. I might believe him even more if he was the Goo Cult.... but I don't expect him to claim that. Either way you slice it, Drey's claim seems off and that makes me suspicious where I might not have been before.
...
FO, please claim your game of origin in your next post. (Not your full role, not your abilities, not even your role name, just your game your role is primarily based on. If you need to ask Xyre which game that is, do so.)
I'll explain why I want the origin claim after you have done so. If you refuse, I'm perfectly happy to force a claim the old-fashioned way.
Everyone else: If you figure it out, please keep quiet.
Taredas, I think trying to keep secrets involving public knowledge from the mafia this game is a pointless gesture. They have daytalk and are probably just as smart as us.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
If AG had actually pointed out suspicious interactions then I'd see what you're saying. As it stands just claiming that two players interacted does not a case make. That was what I was trying to get at.
I don't think he was trying to make a case on Che (and in fact, I'd feel worse about him if he did). He was just making a note to look back if either flipped scum at some point. Casing that sort of interaction without a body is pointless.
I'd be guilty of this if it was AG making the accusation.
He clearly did. -I don't know, maybe it's more obvious to me because I had already seen what he was pointing out, but it feels like you should have been able to pick it up at this point.
Furthermore, in the twoposts AG has made since that post there is little to clarify his meaning.
I mean I pressure voted him, called him out for his naked vote on Tare, pointed out what I believe to be a completely horrible post (and you've got to give me that he at least hits Che for no reason), and clarified his completely misunderstanding on my point. AG hasn't ever provided a defense or supplied reasoning for his Tare vote and his only other post just throws more suspicion around, this time at Asenion. Why in the world are you grilling me when obvscum AG is just skating by?
Because he is obvbad, not obvscum. And the bits of his posts that do hint at his alignment all hint at town (namely, the unique reasoning he has shown).
Okay, so you could just be confused town (if you'd answered, say, Court Mafia I'd have been nearly certain you're scum). Given that source game you're not going to have the role PM feature that DRey misread, so I could see a townie being confused (provided that he or she hadn't read the Redux 1 setup, which has examples of said feature).
See, DRey's claim makes perfectly good sense if you understand what town PMs are going to look like this game. DRey misread his role, but that doesn't mean he's scum. Quite the opposite, really.
Taredas, I think trying to keep secrets involving public knowledge from the mafia this game is a pointless gesture. They have daytalk and are probably just as smart as us.
When you're trying to confirm a possible slip you sure as HELL don't give scum any information that might let them catch on to what the possible slip was before you're sure one way or the other.
So what you are saying is that its just the flavor of the source game and that the Mafia aren't actually goo even though that's what his role PM says. Okay, that makes some sense.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
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Asen: Why on earth would you assume that DRey *hasn't* fullclaimed? I know what that role is, I'm hoping the scum haven't figured out what it does yet.
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Okay, with DRey's claim and recent posts I've seen enough and run enough reading on other games to be reasonably sure. KCC is scum.
Observe:
How did I miss this earlier? It's the catch of the day!
Take a good look, people. "I'm still trying to figure out if I think his posts are scummy." Not "if he's scum". Not even "if his posts are scummy" (which by itself would be IIoA, since scummy posts don't always come from scum).
But KCC says that she's trying to figure out if she *thinks* his posts are scummy. Why would KCC-town phrase it that way? I'm not seeing it.
If KCC is scum, however, the motivation is obvious (and this would then be a slip): KCC is keeping her options open and giving herself an opening to fabricate a case later if needed.
Also, note the response to my "standing off to the side, that's not a town place to stand" comment at the beginning of the quote. KCC doesn't explain how her actions make sense from town or how my comment is wrong. Instead, she brushes away the attack (and in a way that I'm accustomed to seeing from scum who don't want a confrontation).
"Still uncomfortable with his hypothetical proposal" followed by "not worth pursuing"? I don't think that's genuine. You don't say whether or not you think
Note that KCC likes the way Nis responds to pressure (which would indicate Nistown), but then goes on to say that she'll be "keeping a close eye on him" and is "happy to move past that issue". That's not how I'd expect a townie who genuinely liked Nis's response to phrase that (especially the happy to move past part); note that KCC isn't going "yes, I can see that logic coming from town" but rather "time to move on". She's keeping open an option to attack Nis later on this issue - classic scum rhetoric/behavior.
"Response to my accusation" - why this wording? It's awfully indirect - looks like (more) confrontation avoidance to me.
"More suspicious of Nis now" - again, indirect wording.
Also note that KCC isn't explaining how Nis's mindset is *inconsistent*, just that it could come from scum. Coming from KCC, I'm pretty sure that's a MAJOR scumtell - she's *not actually scumhunting*. Explanation/representative KCC town post.
Again, KCC fails to explain how Nis's actions come from inconsistent motivation. (By my read, Nis is scumhunting - I'm leaning towards him being *wrong* on AG, but that doesn't make him scum.)
Note the dismissive tone here. If KCC is town, why dismiss Nis here? Nis is trying to explain his motivations and the error in KCC's argument... and KCC, a player who focuses on motivation when scumhunting, just brushes him off? That... doesn't make any sense.
Well, unless KCC is scum and trying to misrep Nis to make him look worse. Then it makes perfect sense. Hmm.
Stooping to insults/discrediting? That's not town-KCC.
Again, your response to an attack is to go completely dismissive... and this attack is particularly well-founded, to boot. Why is a player who focuses on motivation and mindset as town ignoring potential town motivations for not wanting to claim?
I think it's because you're scum trying to disguise your lack of real scumhunting with defending players you think are town (a null tell, doubly so from you) and attacking players you think are weak.
HoS x3: KittyCupCake
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Secondly, the Nis case is completely about motivation, even if I haven't explicitly spelled it out here. -I analyzed the AG post, and both Asenion and Nis responded. Asenion looked through the reasoning presented, acknowledged some of what I pointed out as being a good point, and responded to the rest in a way that shows he was considering the issues. Based on this, Asenion is more likely town than not. Nis, however, just waved his hand at it and said, "No, AG's post has no content or anything worth looking at." What town motivation exists for that? Is he tunnelvisioned? -I'm not seeing that after only two AG posts -Nis isn't Cyan.
And what's worse is Nis acting like he doesn't understand some basic mafia concepts like interaction analysis. There's no town motivation for acting stupid to push a case. The scum motive is obvious though, as is all of this, which is why I haven't bothered diving into it all explicitly.
If I'm skipping through too much for you though, I'm sorry. -I just finished with Cyberspace, where we had an amazing group of players, so I may be a bit spoiled with being able to jump over the minutiae. -I'll try to slow it down a bit and walk through things more.
Also, you may want to read a bit of Days 3 & 4 of that game if you don't think I tend to get a bit of an attitude with scum who respond in this particular way to questioning. Because I do, because it drives me crazy.
@Taredas: I've only played Cyberspace with KCC, but her play this game seems consistent with her town play that game. I feel like my opposing cases is bad for the town at this point though, so if you think you can build a wagon go ahead and I won't say anything against it.
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'Her play is consistent with her town game, but I won't say anything against the wagon if it forms'.
I have a light town read on Asenion because of the almost complete lack of self-awareness he's displayed this game. There's no sense of self-preservation - just an almost blatant scummy behavior that I have trouble reconciling with scum, as contradictory as it may seem.
But that post makes me cringe a bit.
I think it's more likely that our scum are lurking out the day and hoping that we panic due to the incoming deadline and either no lynch or rush a bad lynch through.
I'd just like DRey to answer my request so I can explain the /why/ behind it, and what it means to me. I had a bit of a eureka moment earlier, and I think he can clarify it.
I agree that the majority of the scum are probably lurking. Hence why my vote is on one right now.
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Given daytalk and how ******* passive this town has been lately I'm running off the opposite assumption: I think that most of our scum are active (as in at least four and possibly *all* of DRey, Che, AG, FO, and kpaca are town, with the last three being most likely to be scum)... and the only active player I have a firm town read on is desCoures*, who is a strong analyst but not good at driving the game forward.
That means that our scum are likely to be some combination of (KCC/Voxx, Cyouni, Nis, you - listed from most to least likely scum). It also means lynching scum is going to be HELL, considering that dC isn't pushing (same goes for you if you're town)
* - Since post 150 or so, before you ask.
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Went back and iso'ed KCC in Cyberspace. It's more reminiscent of her play here than some of her other town games (Innistrad, Cirque, Chosen), but after my reading I still think she's playing closest to StarCraft (where she was scum, and note that SC is most likely to be representative of her modern scum play given that her other scum games are either old or multiscum).
Also, if you've got a better wagon - START PUSHING IT. I can excuse one or two players not doing anything D1. I'm not about to forgive HALF THE ******* GAME doing so. Especially not the player who's done this at least TWICE this game.
Question: Who, other than Forgotten One, do you think is likely to be scum?
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Not sold, especially from you. I have questions for you back in post 220 concerning your post 215, I want them answered.
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All right. I'm getting fed up with this. I can't do **** if my cases are going to disappear into the ether because everyone is either inactive or goes "meh". I mean, D1 is my weakest day, but at least I'm *trying* to do something. Is anyone going to join/rebut me or find scum somewhere I'm not looking and work to convince people, or should I just replace out now and save myself the trouble of shouting into the wind for the rest of the game before the scum win on account of apathy? I mean, it's the weekend, but *still*.
Mod: Please prod Che Guavara
Mod: Please prod/replace kpaca and AtheistGod
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I'll prod the other two, and replace Atheist if he doesn't post in the next 24 hours. (I think he's just a lurker, but yeah.)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Welcome to my day ones. I'm going to use 'I think', 'feel', 'probably' and all kinds of things that people don't like.
I generally pick someone that my gut screams at me is scum and latch onto them. After I get a flip, I re-read the game and can contribute meaningfully. Can look at any of my minis to get an idea for how I tend to play in them - Hunger Games is only one I can think of off top of head. Maybe OTR2, though that was 7 players.
You pretty much just named my scum reads here, minus DRey. Probably minus DRey. I'm still waiting on him to answer my request regarding exact win condition.
Che, FO, Kpaca feel the most like scum to me.
I think Nis is probably town because of how he stuck to his convictions regarding the AG case when KCC attacked him for it. There was no weak backpedal or flailing, which I'd have expected from him as scum after his earlier game performance.
I don't think I'm willing to lynch KCC today. Both KCC and dC are making me uncomfortable, but it's just not something I'm willing to lynch them on day one for.
Cyouni scum is possible. He's lacking the pressure/attacking drive that I've seen from him in previous (town) games.
But it ultimately comes down to the fact that we have 5 days to lynch someone.
I'll try to build an actual case on Che tomorrow when I have more time, but it's largely just gut.
I will say that I'd rather you not replace out, even if I completely understand the frustration. I'm near useless before I get a flip to analyse, though if I'm comfortable writing DRey off as town after his response, I could have something based on that wagon.
Also, @KCC - Cyan Goo is referring to the color, not the person, I think. I went and looked at the source material for his role, and it was all Orange Goo, Gold Goo, etc. So yeah. I laughed though, since I agree that a friendly hugging Cyan Goo is amusing
I need sleep, 4 am comes early.
Why do I need more than one scum target at a time? If you really want a list, I am suspicious of Che, AG, FO, kpaca, Taredas, and possibly Nis; but in no particular order. (I've been engrossed in my other game lately and Nis is in that one two, not sure which Nis I'm thinking of atm until I re-read and refresh myself.) I'm suspicious of you just because you have too many things in your favor for being town. Anyone who stands out that much as a townsfolk might be scum, but you will probably get night killed eventually if you are town.
I would be fine with lynching any of those people besides Taredas. I kind of think we have done all we can for Day 1 and we need to pick a lynch. More claims at this point without a flip to back up our reads might be detrimental.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
First things first. @Xyre: what happens if we reach deadline without a lynch? Because I don't see that information in the first post.
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@Asenion
Fair enough on Taredas, but I don't like the hands-off approach you're taking towards DRey here. It also rings a bit inconsistent with how you're pressuring him re: his win condition right now.
...wait, why were you suspicious of Taredas again? And kpaca, for that matter.
And your suspect list is half the game. What the heck?
@Taredas
You'd be asking the wrong person here. I was dead on day 2, way before DRey ever replaced in, and mostly skipped his posts while skimming the thread in later days. His posts are actively painful to read a lot of the time.
What do you mean by this? I feel I've been pushing plenty. Not everyone has three votes, you know.
Also, while I think you're town, you hopping around like this isn't really helping. At this point, you've done the HoSx3 thing on nearly the entire playerbase of this game. As for your KCC case, you have good points on how non-committal and careful her early posts are, but your points on her later posts feel like reaching. She has good reason to be questioning Nis at least. If Nis ever flips town, then yes, it seems pretty questionable, but right now I'm not seeing it as a reason to conclude that she's scum.
@Nis
That's horrendously non-committal on DRey.
What do you actually think about players not named DRey and AtheistGod, come to think of it?
@DRey
Re: Your claim - that seems somewhat verifiable, and rather powerful if town and working exactly the way you say it does. That being said, then, please explain to me a couple of things.
First of all, why did you say this:
...because neither of those two statements seem true about your role.
Second:
If you are sticky, and the mod says in-thread at the beginning of day who is sticky, why have we not seen any such thing in-thread today?
And third:
...do you seriously think there is more than one mafia group in a mini? Also, while I see you breadcrumbed your role name in your very first post of the game, I don't see you hinting at all about multiple mafia groups or neutrals in a single one of your posts. Didn't you think that should have been something you should have mentioned previously?
I was voting you because behaviourally you've been one of the scummiest people this game, with countless groundless-to-outright-inaccurate assertions, liberal barning, and insufficient explanation for any of your actions.
-----------------------------
I'm not going to move my vote from DRey yet until he replies, but I'm most willing to lynch Forgotten One today, especially given his complete disappearance - he hasn't posted a word for quite a while, despite saying in his last post that he would answer some of the question KCC and I had for him later that day. If DRey replies to my satisfaction, Che (or his replacement) also need to come under scrutiny for his support of the DRey wagon with some vague assertion as to having something that might 'prove DRey scum' which he never clarified, even when I questioned him on it.
I'd also like Voxxicus to clarify why he feels 'uncomfortable' about me and KCC.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Do you really believe that scummy behavior is a town tell? To me, that looks simply like an excuse to clear town.
Asenion is giving me both town and scum vibes. It's possibly just difference in views but it's something that is nagging at me. My little brain isn't suited for this; punching and killing, now that's much more preferable.
I posted my extended scum list because Taredas asked for it. Suspicious =/= to thinking those people are scum right now, but I'm watching them more closely.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Not an answer. You must have some reason to be suspicious of kpaca-now-RobRoy, and I'm really wondering why you're suspicious at all of Taredas.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Well, I'm here now. Have some stuff to do in the morning, will hopefully be able to post some content in the afternoon.
Was the deadline pushed back due to replacements, or are we still three days away from it?
Or it's a null tell because both town and scum ask for lists all the time. Furthermore, DRey had three votes on him when he did this, all accumulated in 4 posts. Sure it was a wagon, but you're acting like DRey was trying to deflect while under significant pressure. There were 64 posts between the time dC voted for DRey (vote #3) and DRey's post that AG had quoted. Attention had shifted away from DRey and towards Che.
Heck, you even respond to DRey's post while addressing DRey's request for scum lists. You didn't even hint that you thought DRey was deflecting. But only later do you say that you felt the same way.
Because I just can't see AG's post in the way you're claiming to see it. I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong and possibly reading the entire situation incorrectly.
So I went back and reread the entire build up of DRey's wagon and what happened around AG's post. Guess what: I again just couldn't see what you're seeing. You're either reading too much into AG's post and giving it more meaning that what AG intended, or you're being contrary to me just to be contrary.
In fact, DRey even jumped onto the AG wagon and you didn't even so much as call it out as OMGUS. You didn't even call out Asenion for blatantly jumping onto the AG wagon for the entirely wrong reason. It's like you took selective umbrage that anybody could dare find AG's behavior and contentless posts as signs of scum.
DRey has built himself a meta that's difficult to not read as scummy.
I'm beginning to think KCC isn't just merely giving AG undue significance but instead trying to force some scenario to make me look like I'm scum because I called out a bad post for what it was.
I'm concerned about kpaca and Che going dark. I'm beginning to suspect that both of them are scum and are willing to let us tear each other apart.
I do have a question about DRey's claim:
How is goo the opposite of goo?
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Taredas mentions MafiaScum a lot.
Do you expect the game to still be going at this point?
I disagree about the nature of Asen questions, I think they are legit and I see pro-towness in them however I will not answer anyway because you asked me and because I've already explained more than enough, I've claimed fully, more clarification will only help the scum at this point imho.
This is a very telling post if KCC ever flips scum. In fact this feels so wrong to me that I'm almost ready to clear AG because of this, almost. There's no way you would link yourself that strongly to him if you were both scum.
@Tar now this is a question I totally see scum making. This reads to me "hey, do we have to kill you N1, or we can wait until later?"
I agree with this. Looks like my big desire to not claim made me play scummy to some people and increased the wagon against me.
We need to pick up our pace, everyone please top3 candidates in your next post and we lynch the highest one. AG, F1 and Kpaca for me.
I don't see myself as strong as you people seem to believe but I said that for two reasons: mostly to breadcrumb a power role and hopefully make people shy away from my wagon, I really really didn't want to claim and because I'm really powerless after claimed, because now I will be roleblocked/redirected/killed/something_else_I_have_no_idea and don't catch any scum while at it. I was hoping to catch at least one scum with my powers.
I hug people and they get the sticky status, this doesn't work until I've actively hugged someone. I suppose I will never appear in the thread since I'm naturally sticky.
In retrospect you are correct, I should have noticed it make no sense to have two scumgroups in a mini and should have breadcrumbed it earlier. I didn't because I only noticed this when I went to reread my role PM when I was going to claim. Anyway, I got fooled by the mod, I suck. Sorry.
The Goo Mafia is not friendly and welcoming, unlike me. But now knowing my wincon was just joke, I don't even know if that's true or not. I'm not a neutral though.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Since deadlines from this point on are going to be even more stringent, I suggest you get used to it.
EDIT: And on that note, I'm prodding Forgotten One.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
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Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I wanted a fuller picture of where you stand, and of which players you would be willing to lynch at deadline. Thank you.
Except, of course, for hauling out the Too Townie fallacy. That's been a bad argument for years.
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Explain, please.
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Fair enough.
It's playstyle-related rather than any indicator of alignment (or votes, for that matter); you generally sit back and analyze rather than make a Cyan-esque push on any players. It's reasonably effective at finding scum, but from what I saw in Ataghan it's not especially good at convincing other players to agree with you. In a deadline situation, that can be a bit of a problem.
Nearly the entire isn't quite right (closer to half, and two of those were at least partially "shape up and start playing better"), but I've been more spread out that I would like. There's a couple reasons for that: the lack of activity, general reluctance to bandwagon*, and slow pace here really hampers my scumhunting, and I've gotten cold feet at least twice (you're probably town, and Che's final response to my case could come from VI-town).
I mean, for me the most important function of D1 is to metaphorically smash apart the playerbase with a strong case or two and see what the pieces look like so you can figure out who's scum given player flips. But that doesn't work when you're swinging into a blob because half of the other players are apathetic.
* - I'm pretty sure MTGS is less bandwagon-happy than MS is in general, but this game seems averse to bandwagons even by MTGS standards.
She has good reason to be going after Nis as either alignment, and the way she's doing it makes me think it comes from a scum mindset.
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I'll take a look at your past games.
Wait, you say Cyouni is aggressive as town? Lemme check that - I've had him backburnered for a while now (much like KCC until I decided that I needed to be sure one way or the other). Maybe I should move him up to the front.
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The really concerning part of Asen's questions was raising the possibility of a neutral; I'm used to that sort of question coming from neutral-hunting scum.
I was hoping after I saw the claim that I could shut down enough discussion to leave the scum somewhat in the dark as to exactly what it does. Probably too late, but if so, oh well.
My impression of KCC from my reading is that she defends players she thinks are town regardless of alignment, and that these players are likely to actually be town. Never say never with regards to scum arguments, but if KCC is scum then AG is likely to be town.
Yes, yes it could be. And Cyouni was already near the top of my scumdar given that he's *also* been standing off to the side most of the game. And Voxx has a possible meta catch. Hmm.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Alright, what I was looking for with the win condition thing is the fact that I think all of the town win conditions come from the town role PM's in your source game. Mine does, and it's slightly ambiguous whether or not we're looking for a scum team or multiple due to that - but when I re-read DRey's statement and saw him mentioning the Goo's, I kind of wanted him to claim specifically to see if it matched the town win condition in the Goo mafia. It probably does, and I think he's town.
But I'm not going to go down the win condition route anymore, I guess. Just thought I had something that would confirm him as town, even if I guess I agree it goes against the spirit of things.
@dC
You and KCC both make me uncomfortable, for lack of a better word, but for different reasons. Some of your earlier posts just felt like my own scum game - questions didn't feel like you genuinely cared about the answer to them, merely were just asking them for the sake of asking. Plus tunneling on DRey when it's pretty likely he's town at this point. I've liked some of your more recent posts though, and am not willing to lynch you currently - just...uncomfortable fits best. KCC is a mix of playstyle differences and not especially liking the people she's attacked (Drey, Nis).
I want to lynch Che. FO is an alright option, and I could see Cyouni - I just generally am a bit more hesitant to lynch stronger players on day one, even if maybe that's a bad habit. Will try to actually case Che later this evening after I eat, just was responding to a few things quick. But him vanishing as deadline approaches, and sitting on Drey with that OOOH SPOOKY NOISES I HAVE REASONS I THINK HE'S SCUM bit is a Thing.
A thing worth lynching him for.
KCC, Cyouni, Forgotten One (most likely to be scum of the lurkers, especially if exactly one lurker is scum).
Bonus section!
Probably town: desCoures, you
Reluctant to lynch today: Che (I can see FO being scum without Che, I'm having a hard time seeing the reverse), Asenion (would be probable town if not for responses to my cases)
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
There's no need to be exactly 3 guys, and if you can provide reasons it will be very much appreciated.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
So Drey is goo, he is supposed to be the opposite of the Mafia, yet the main mafia group is also goo....
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
Cyouni: Nis, Asenion
I've been really feeling meh recently. Part of it's probably the fact that I got sick for about a week.
But if you want to take a look at meta, feel free. Blog link's to the side.
Such as...what?
Also, questions.
It's called fullclaiming for a reason. Answer the question.
How so? No, you don't get to dismiss half of my case just by saying it's "horrible" - show your work. (Especially your comments on Che and your exit from the initial Nis pressure, which are phrased in a manner that I associate with scum.)
Nis could just disagree with your assessment. Why can't town genuinely believe that AG's post doesn't have enough content to go off of?
I suspect Nis is *wrong* about AG (some of AG's posts look like classic lurkish VI-town). I'm not sure that Nis is scum because of it.
... That is actually a good point. Fair enough.
Since the town games I checked from you before were either Basics or Chosen, I went back and double-checked Cyberspace. In Cyberspace there was a more *active* bunch of players, including several game drivers. Here we've got a bunch of players who are new/lurking/not good at driving the game. Nobody else is going to do it for you here.
But still: your posts here don't look like your posts in Innistrad/Cirque/Chosen. Moreover (and this is the important part), your case on Nis reminds me of your (fabricated) cases in scum games (especially StarCraft, and since it's the most recent scum game and both Amistarian II and Too Much Scum were multiscum it's most likely to be representative).
I'd been focusing on your D1 interactions while reading you (since a fair bit of your play relies on flips, I wanted to see how you interacted before flips were available); now that I've looked at D4 of Cyberspace (just D4 for time) - you *did* get an attitude when Az busted out a scum defense: you got sarcastic.
Maybe you're just being sarcastic to a player you think is scum using a kind of defense that annoys you. But that poses another question: Why the certainty on Nis being scum this early? From what I've seen in my reading, you're usually reluctant to just go ahead and call a player scum D1. (Though let me check your Wheat case in Newb I-can't-remember-OTOH to double-check.)
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Uhh... have you read Goo Mafia? Like, at all? Even the first post of that game should explain exactly why this particular "argument" is complete prattle.
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DRey: AG, FO, RR/Kpaca
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
Cyouni: Nis, Asenion
FO: Voxx, KCC, Asen
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
@Cyouni: I was clearly referring to the previous post, not the one posted just before mine. That statement was in response to someone asking why I voted, which was because of the previous bad post. I hadn't taken the new post into account when answering a question about past actions before it. Please don't try to take things out of context.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
Cyouni: Nis, Asenion
FO: Voxx, KCC, Asen
Nis: AG, KCC, Che
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Neat.
--
Got in a quick reread of DRey. Some weird stuff there. Starting with his very first post:
First off, the flavour of the game had been posted in several places. Roles were inspired by games of the last 5 years, so DRey must have known that his role was from a Goo Mafia or something, and it isn't that much effort to go and locate it. So, DRey: why the confusion? Secondly, if you were confused, why did you just throw a partial claim out there, instead of, say, PMing the mod?
Also, can you point me to your most recent Day 1s as both scum and town? I'm inclined to vote for you, but want to check meta and get a response on the above points before risking that.
Vox: Che, FO, Cy
Tar: KCC, Cy, FO
RR: Nis, TFO, Che, DRey
Asen: F1, AG
Cyouni: Nis, Asenion
FO: Voxx, KCC, Asen
Nis: AG, KCC, Che
KCC: Nis, F1, Cy, Voxx
3 votes was the largest wagon at the time, and it's not an insignificant number in a mini. Also, he wasn't just "asking for a list," he was asking for list with the intent of just lynching whoever appeared most (and while that's appropriate now, it wasn't at the time). Still, if you want to disagree with AG's reasoning, that's fine. The problem is you were just acting like there was no reasoning given at all.
That's because I didn't want to tip my hand too much before he responded to my question. -But that is why I was questioning him there; I read it the exact same way AG did.
Wait, what does any of this have to do with you saying, "isn't that the case for anybody who has any sort of interaction?" -like you don't understand that interaction analysis is a useful thing in mafia?
*@future Tar (current Tar just skip this for now, it'll make sense later): This part. Look at this response and what he is responding to.
DRey does things like that as town, so it was irrelevant. Asenion's reasoning I understood, even if I disagree with it. You, on the other hand, dismissed the entire post as contentless (when there was clearly content, including original thoughts) while making blatantly incorrect statements about it (saying he gave no reasoning on DRey, when he did).
BTW, finger pointing isn't earning you any points.
There is nothing to show. You are completely wrong and I think the posts are self-explanatory.
Because it isn't true? -Like I said, it's one thing to disagree with AG's points, but to say they don't exist (especially after they are pointed out) is just disingenuous.
Yeah, those 3 games probably aren't the best sample. It's two basics and an IRC style game; I went into those games expecting to have to hold everyone's hand and teach them while playing. -This is a standard mini, I shouldn't have to explain basic concepts.
-Because Nis is doing the little scum dance with me where he responds line by line inconsistently with the rest of the conversation, while twisting words and playing stupid along the way. Here, I'll even go up and mark an important part for you. (You probably saw it already though, so just go back there).
And while, yes, I tend to be more cautious on D1, because I don't usually have enough info to work with, that's not always true. -In cyberspace, I had two players in my obvscum pile D1 and a third close to it. It just depends on the game and the reactions.
Let's back up. AG lumped DRey and Che together. Even if I give you that AG provided reasoning on DRey (on which I still don't agree with you) that doesn't mean he provided any sort of reasoning on Che. Replace Che with any other name in AG's post and it's the same thing: trying to tie DRey and another player together without reasoning. If AG had actually pointed out suspicious interactions then I'd see what you're saying. As it stands just claiming that two players interacted does not a case make. That was what I was trying to get at.
I'd be guilty of this if it was AG making the accusation. As it is, you're using your interpretation of AG's words as evidence that my interpretation is wrong. Furthermore, in the two posts AG has made since that post there is little to clarify his meaning.
I mean I pressure voted him, called him out for his naked vote on Tare, pointed out what I believe to be a completely horrible post (and you've got to give me that he at least hits Che for no reason), and clarified his completely misunderstanding on my point. AG hasn't ever provided a defense or supplied reasoning for his Tare vote and his only other post just throws more suspicion around, this time at Asenion. Why in the world are you grilling me when obvscum AG is just skating by?
I read this as, "That's not my real meta so it doesn't apply." Convenient.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
I had not read Goo Mafia, but after a quick read of the setup Drey's claim still doesn't really make sense to me in the context of this game. In Goo Mafia, everyone was goo of different colors, so him being Cyan Goo makes some sense. What I don't get is the statement that the Mafia are also goo... this isn't 'Goo Mafia Redux'. So if we believe Drey, then we have some number of Mafia Goo out there... really? If this other team were a Goo Cult and he is the anti-Goo cult (of which there were two opposing Goo cult leaders in Goo mafia that changed people's colors), then I might actually believe him. I might believe him even more if he was the Goo Cult.... but I don't expect him to claim that. Either way you slice it, Drey's claim seems off and that makes me suspicious where I might not have been before.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
...
FO, please claim your game of origin in your next post. (Not your full role, not your abilities, not even your role name, just your game your role is primarily based on. If you need to ask Xyre which game that is, do so.)
I'll explain why I want the origin claim after you have done so. If you refuse, I'm perfectly happy to force a claim the old-fashioned way.
Everyone else: If you figure it out, please keep quiet.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=155704
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
It hasn't been common for that to be the case in games on that site, so I doubt they do.
I don't think he was trying to make a case on Che (and in fact, I'd feel worse about him if he did). He was just making a note to look back if either flipped scum at some point. Casing that sort of interaction without a body is pointless.
He clearly did. -I don't know, maybe it's more obvious to me because I had already seen what he was pointing out, but it feels like you should have been able to pick it up at this point.
But you aren't even interpreting. -You are just saying, "nope, nothing there."
Because he is obvbad, not obvscum. And the bits of his posts that do hint at his alignment all hint at town (namely, the unique reasoning he has shown).
Great. -That doesn't tell us anything.
Okay, so you could just be confused town (if you'd answered, say, Court Mafia I'd have been nearly certain you're scum). Given that source game you're not going to have the role PM feature that DRey misread, so I could see a townie being confused (provided that he or she hadn't read the Redux 1 setup, which has examples of said feature).
See, DRey's claim makes perfectly good sense if you understand what town PMs are going to look like this game. DRey misread his role, but that doesn't mean he's scum. Quite the opposite, really.
When you're trying to confirm a possible slip you sure as HELL don't give scum any information that might let them catch on to what the possible slip was before you're sure one way or the other.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections