2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The setup is interesting, but I get the feeling that the game is only balanced if the scum are playing well and the town is playing mediocre, which is kind of an unfair requirement.
I fully agree with Fade's analysis, usually scum has the natural burden of having to lie a lot to balance this, they usually have much more knowledge about the setup and power. Yes the scum and the town weren't very powerful but the wacky roles combined with "scummy" roles for scum and no leeway for safe-claims made scum life hell, to win this they would need to play much better than the town, I expect that, considering same level of scum and town, that town win majority of times, the definition of unbalanced games.
I really hated the self-watcher on principle. The problem is that if it goes to a good analyst, and the mafia kill them as a result, then they're screwed.
Untrue. The role is much more complex than that. Imagine I died without claiming, in this case no one would have any hints on the reason someone was cyan, it would be WIFOM at best and they probably would have escaped. My original plan was to don't claim anything and if I was online at twilight claim a cryptic "if someone is cyan tomorrow, lynch him because he's scum for sure". Dunno if that would work.
As well, though the Godfather would dodge the self-watcher, there was no hint to that being able to happen. It specified cop investigations and tracks.
/barn I think town should be penalized for playing badly, in this case I clearly should be penalized for playing badly and being forced to claim. Heck, I think it would be fair to the scum if the godfather read "you avoid, cop, tracks and CYANIZATION" so no one had any doubts about that.
First things first - congratulations on that falseclaim, DRey. The moment I saw what happened on day 2 I knew you were falseclaiming - heck, I had a vague suspicion before that, but I allowed myself to be talked into believing it. The game might have gone differently if I'd done what I wanted to and just killed Taredas on night 1 and had no one else do anything.
Yeah, that was another major blow to the scum team. Between Nis outing himself on gameplay and DRey's falseclaim (I don't recall if I mentioned this in the Spec chat, but that claim was beautiful, DRey), the pulling-all-the-stops kill meant Cyouni and dC pretty much were forced into attempting a pretty awkward WIFOM-y gambit that would be difficult to ride for multiple days and would pretty much ensure that the scum team would need to have one member solo the game.
In hindsight my falseclaim was not that well executed. I tried to breadcrumb as most as possible that I was lying and that the cyan guy should be killed ("kill whoever is cyan tomorrow", and "I know exactly who I'm going to target") but in the end the cyanization didn't determine the lynches of scum. The good part is that the cyanization enveloped the scum in a web of lies and a feeling of hopelessness so big that I think it completely destabilized the team. That was not part of my plan, but I think it worked well for the town.
Oh, I also thought about saying "I know exactly who I'm going to target, the best player in this game and that I know is town" that probably would not work as it would probably become obvious I was meaning I would target myself (not that I really think I'm the best player (I do not) I would just be preying on the fact that I'm widely considered arrogant here).
I understand what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. I mean, when it's obvious that someone is forcefully grasping for straws to look like a townie, yes he's probably scum. But when I do this I do in a "underhanded" way that always work (see my feigning cluelessness about the wincon). At least I've never been burned by it.
In the end I'm experienced enough to not fall prey of common scumtells.
---
Seeing everyone is condemning Nis here I want to give a different opinion. I think Nis played superbly here (except when he decided to claim a daykill he didn't possess and then didn't lurk to the end of day, a no-lynch at that point would probably work very well for scum). "But DRey, Nis was overly scummy all the time", yes, yes he was, however Nis is one of those players that are ALWAYS scummy, I said it before, it looks like he's one of those guys that are always at the worst place at the worst time.
In the end it may not be that comforting but I have so much experience with him, that I filter all his scummyness and accept him as town all the time. In this particular game as being the guy with the most experience with him and knowing his meta most, backfired against me. And this is a good trait, playing similar as both scum or town is that mark of a good player.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I really hated the self-watcher on principle. The problem is that if it goes to a good analyst, and the mafia kill them as a result, then they're screwed.
Untrue. The role is much more complex than that. Imagine I died without claiming, in this case no one would have any hints on the reason someone was cyan, it would be WIFOM at best and they probably would have escaped. My original plan was to don't claim anything and if I was online at twilight claim a cryptic "if someone is cyan tomorrow, lynch him because he's scum for sure". Dunno if that would work.
Consider what would happen in this scenario:
A player dies, and is revealed as Cyan Goo. In the opening post, someone is cyan. There's not that many possibilities that would come up for that, and I'm pretty sure the first one that'd come up is that they're the killer. That even came up despite you not saying it, and the only reason we got away with it was due to your claim and everyone going "he couldn't have been a self-watcher in addition to what he claimed".
As well, though the Godfather would dodge the self-watcher, there was no hint to that being able to happen. It specified cop investigations and tracks.
/barn I think town should be penalized for playing badly, in this case I clearly should be penalized for playing badly and being forced to claim. Heck, I think it would be fair to the scum if the godfather read "you avoid, cop, tracks and CYANIZATION" so no one had any doubts about that.
The "you count as" should be more than enough for it. I already knew to avoid claiming cop/track related stuff because of the ability - adding cyanization to it would have been overkill.
Seeing everyone is condemning Nis here I want to give a different opinion. I think Nis played superbly here (except when he decided to claim a daykill he didn't possess and then didn't lurk to the end of day, a no-lynch at that point would probably work very well for scum). "But DRey, Nis was overly scummy all the time", yes, yes he was, however Nis is one of those players that are ALWAYS scummy, I said it before, it looks like he's one of those guys that are always at the worst place at the worst time.
I admit, him claiming that daykill made me chuckle for the rest of the day watching the chaos.
Asenion, while modtext in Mafia was a bit of a battleground issue some time ago, it should never have been an issue since you registered.
Like Iso, I also don't see any card for modtext on your profile. I don't suppose it matters, but if you'd like to sort this out, shoot me a PM.
To clarify for future reference: the Mafia subforum has a special exemption from the modtext rule* due to the nature of the game and much it just makes sense to use bold red in relation to it. So you're totally fine if you ever feel like using bold red in a scum list or the like.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I don't think you saw where I outright said that the mafia didn't deserve at all to win this game. Even that being said, however, I think it's disingenuous to say that the only roles that had a direct effect on the game were AtheistGod's and DRey's, because nearly all the roles played a role in how things got to the point they did.
AG's role not just blocks a kill, but has a good chance of mechanically confirming both him and his target as town - that's extremely painful in a mini. And you have to consider that given how much of a setback losing a kill in a mini is, no scum team can possibly take the risk of firing into AG himself regardless, as long as that role makes the obvious lie, which is where it differs greatly from a doctor. (And yes, Iso, redirecting the rolestopper is an option... until the rolestopper gets lynched and exposes the redirector, because literally no game on this site other than Harry Potter and at an extreme stretch Ogre has ever had a 'bag of gold' in it.) Taredas' role made painting him as scum a real problem. And I had to overreach myself later by trying to save Cyouni because I knew for a fact I wouldn't be able to navigate through PoE on my own, and earlier by rubbishing Taredas' chroma killer cyan speculation the whole time knowing that it was exactly what I would have concluded in his place. The fact is the game was nearly solved by a day 2 mass claim.
Actually, now that I think about it, the Chroma Killer caused all kinds of problems. Other than the above, there's also the fact that of the three 'Cyans', the scum one is incredibly obvious if truthfully claimed, and when the scum one dies, the other two are effectively confirmed town - and one of them is even a trap for scum, to boot. The Chroma Killer is also horrendously bad for town, since it's a fourth lynch they need to make happen, and there's even a scenario where the town can lose after lynching a scum. (For reference: 7 people alive, with both other Cyans dead, the town lynches Acyanchamberpot. Rumpelstiltskin leaves the game, the remaining two scum kill overnight, scum win in the day.)
So yes, I would have so removed the neutral, and power down the town, power up the scum, either way.
I don't want you to think that I don't realize where you're coming from, Xyre - because, in a way, Doha Mafia was very much constructed according to a similar design philosophy, with active punishment for bad habits of the town, roles that seriously required one to think about what they were doing, a large number of intricate parts designed to flow into one another, and some outright traps. The end result, unfortunately, was a great deal of frustration and apathy from the players, at least some of which was most definitely due to the setup.
Edit: I also do, however, want to mention that I do like some of the roles a lot. Specifically I do like Cyan Goo, and while I wouldn't have made him a neutral but instead a limited vig or something, I think the Chroma Killer was a great idea.
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Untrue. The role is much more complex than that. Imagine I died without claiming, in this case no one would have any hints on the reason someone was cyan, it would be WIFOM at best and they probably would have escaped. My original plan was to don't claim anything and if I was online at twilight claim a cryptic "if someone is cyan tomorrow, lynch him because he's scum for sure". Dunno if that would work.
/barn I think town should be penalized for playing badly, in this case I clearly should be penalized for playing badly and being forced to claim. Heck, I think it would be fair to the scum if the godfather read "you avoid, cop, tracks and CYANIZATION" so no one had any doubts about that.
In hindsight my falseclaim was not that well executed. I tried to breadcrumb as most as possible that I was lying and that the cyan guy should be killed ("kill whoever is cyan tomorrow", and "I know exactly who I'm going to target") but in the end the cyanization didn't determine the lynches of scum. The good part is that the cyanization enveloped the scum in a web of lies and a feeling of hopelessness so big that I think it completely destabilized the team. That was not part of my plan, but I think it worked well for the town.
Oh, I also thought about saying "I know exactly who I'm going to target, the best player in this game and that I know is town" that probably would not work as it would probably become obvious I was meaning I would target myself (not that I really think I'm the best player (I do not) I would just be preying on the fact that I'm widely considered arrogant here).
I understand what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. I mean, when it's obvious that someone is forcefully grasping for straws to look like a townie, yes he's probably scum. But when I do this I do in a "underhanded" way that always work (see my feigning cluelessness about the wincon). At least I've never been burned by it.
In the end I'm experienced enough to not fall prey of common scumtells.
---
Seeing everyone is condemning Nis here I want to give a different opinion. I think Nis played superbly here (except when he decided to claim a daykill he didn't possess and then didn't lurk to the end of day, a no-lynch at that point would probably work very well for scum). "But DRey, Nis was overly scummy all the time", yes, yes he was, however Nis is one of those players that are ALWAYS scummy, I said it before, it looks like he's one of those guys that are always at the worst place at the worst time.
In the end it may not be that comforting but I have so much experience with him, that I filter all his scummyness and accept him as town all the time. In this particular game as being the guy with the most experience with him and knowing his meta most, backfired against me. And this is a good trait, playing similar as both scum or town is that mark of a good player.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Uhh, where?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
A player dies, and is revealed as Cyan Goo. In the opening post, someone is cyan. There's not that many possibilities that would come up for that, and I'm pretty sure the first one that'd come up is that they're the killer. That even came up despite you not saying it, and the only reason we got away with it was due to your claim and everyone going "he couldn't have been a self-watcher in addition to what he claimed".
The "you count as" should be more than enough for it. I already knew to avoid claiming cop/track related stuff because of the ability - adding cyanization to it would have been overkill.
I admit, him claiming that daykill made me chuckle for the rest of the day watching the chaos.
Asenion, while modtext in Mafia was a bit of a battleground issue some time ago, it should never have been an issue since you registered.
Like Iso, I also don't see any card for modtext on your profile. I don't suppose it matters, but if you'd like to sort this out, shoot me a PM.
To clarify for future reference: the Mafia subforum has a special exemption from the modtext rule* due to the nature of the game and much it just makes sense to use bold red in relation to it. So you're totally fine if you ever feel like using bold red in a scum list or the like.
*For game-related purposes only.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I don't think you saw where I outright said that the mafia didn't deserve at all to win this game. Even that being said, however, I think it's disingenuous to say that the only roles that had a direct effect on the game were AtheistGod's and DRey's, because nearly all the roles played a role in how things got to the point they did.
AG's role not just blocks a kill, but has a good chance of mechanically confirming both him and his target as town - that's extremely painful in a mini. And you have to consider that given how much of a setback losing a kill in a mini is, no scum team can possibly take the risk of firing into AG himself regardless, as long as that role makes the obvious lie, which is where it differs greatly from a doctor. (And yes, Iso, redirecting the rolestopper is an option... until the rolestopper gets lynched and exposes the redirector, because literally no game on this site other than Harry Potter and at an extreme stretch Ogre has ever had a 'bag of gold' in it.) Taredas' role made painting him as scum a real problem. And I had to overreach myself later by trying to save Cyouni because I knew for a fact I wouldn't be able to navigate through PoE on my own, and earlier by rubbishing Taredas' chroma killer cyan speculation the whole time knowing that it was exactly what I would have concluded in his place. The fact is the game was nearly solved by a day 2 mass claim.
Actually, now that I think about it, the Chroma Killer caused all kinds of problems. Other than the above, there's also the fact that of the three 'Cyans', the scum one is incredibly obvious if truthfully claimed, and when the scum one dies, the other two are effectively confirmed town - and one of them is even a trap for scum, to boot. The Chroma Killer is also horrendously bad for town, since it's a fourth lynch they need to make happen, and there's even a scenario where the town can lose after lynching a scum. (For reference: 7 people alive, with both other Cyans dead, the town lynches Acyanchamberpot. Rumpelstiltskin leaves the game, the remaining two scum kill overnight, scum win in the day.)
So yes, I would have so removed the neutral, and power down the town, power up the scum, either way.
I don't want you to think that I don't realize where you're coming from, Xyre - because, in a way, Doha Mafia was very much constructed according to a similar design philosophy, with active punishment for bad habits of the town, roles that seriously required one to think about what they were doing, a large number of intricate parts designed to flow into one another, and some outright traps. The end result, unfortunately, was a great deal of frustration and apathy from the players, at least some of which was most definitely due to the setup.
Edit: I also do, however, want to mention that I do like some of the roles a lot. Specifically I do like Cyan Goo, and while I wouldn't have made him a neutral but instead a limited vig or something, I think the Chroma Killer was a great idea.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player