Tar didn't want my vote. I get your point that I find you both likely to be town and you both find kpaca scummy, but I still think F1 (great abbreviation, I'm stealing it) is more likely to be mafia.
I'm not being intentionally scummy, I've been playing intentionally openly. No filter and no tricks, I've said whatever I pleased. This is considered scummy behavior because my opinions are naturally scummy somehow and I've been lynched because of it before. I've got reasons that being lynched isn't a worst case scenario, but it would still leave the town with no information after Day 1 and that's an awful spot to be. So in the interest of making sure we gain information from our Day 1 lynch, I'm going to be more careful.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I play this way as town too, and I say you keep doing it. If you are a townie that's truthful and honest and end up lynched because of this, it's not your fault, it's of the town that sucked. I see nothing scummy about anything you said so far.
Anyway, there's not just one scum left and F1 doesn't look very experienced so if he's indeed scum we will catch him sooner or later, no need to sweat about it.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Wait... what, specifically, are you calling "complete crap town play", and why specifically crap TOWN play? Do you know the alignment of the players voting you?
kpaca clearly referenced scum pushing the wagon in the part of this post you neglected to quote. -Why omit that?
Gut reads (plus whatever you have to back them), please. You've been off on the side of the game since the end of random stage, that's not a town place to stand.
We're barely a hundred posts into the game, relax.
And you should have most of my current scum reads by now. -The only one I haven't mentioned yet is Che, but that's because I'm still trying to figure out if I think his posts are scummy, or if it's just something about the posting style that is bothering me.
What caused your view on Nis to change now as opposed to earlier?
"Changed" isn't the right word, exactly, because I'm just as uncomfortable with his hypothetical proposal now as I was then. The only difference is, now, I have a little more info -namely, how he responded to the pressure. And it's just not worth pursuing.
Oh believe me, I'm contributing. But if people are going to build a wagon on me based on nothing (I mean really, this wagon started on the theory we should lynch me just because we have to lynch somebody so it might as well be kpaca) and then a few scum are gonna run with it and everyone else jst wants to watch.....well **** I wanna watch it all happen to.
Its an incredibly fascinating display of complete crap town play.
Do you see the bolded? -His post wasn't even close to what you are trying to push here.
"a few scum" =/= "comprised exclusively of town players"
What's most damming however is that you still haven't provided any reasons for prompting people to vote me yet. You just answered this case, but when you first said "Why are we letting drey come to a pass?" I didn't even had posted that yet. So what were the reasons I was being scummy back there?
I would still like kpaca to respond to this, however; though, I'm not going to hold my breath on that.
Follow the thread. Or, in other words, I have no idea what you're asking.
[*]Hypothetical
[*]Of course it excludes the possibility of mafia!kpaca; the "rule" is based on the idea of a neutral!kpaca. An of course it includes the possibility of a deadline; the "rule" is based on the idea of reaching a deadline.
[*]To make myself clear again, I'm not saying kpaca is a neutral nor am I saying we'll reach the deadline without clear candidates. I was simply making a hypothetical statement that if [i]a[/i] game ever reaches the deadline D1 without a clear lynch candidate then lynching kpaca to eliminate the possibility of a neutral!kpaca could be a viable option given kpaca's skill as a neutral. To be even more clear, this hypothetical is purely to show Che that a random lynch D1, if it comes to it, can be made in a way where it is not "TERRIBLE" policy (albeit it's basically a "LESSBAD" policy). My intent was as narrow as that.
[/list]
How is it being hypothetical relevant to meta/site meta?
Why would neutral!kpaca be a better candidate versus whoever you see as scum?
And now you are being naive Nis, this is not a misunderstanding, this is simply the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen. There's simply no case against you, and your detractors (Che) probably know it(because he's scum :teach:). I also agree with Asen that this game is pretty slow moving and in dire need of direction and prods.
[B]about Kpaca[/B]
I've played kpaca with a lot and I think I can read him well because of that, the difference of townKpaca and scumKpaca is subtle but it can be spotted. Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
You provided no evidence to back up your statement.
Anyone can throw around statements and say they're true - that doesn't make them true.
Drey has not played with me a lot, has zero clout at reading me, rarely understands my methods (as he openly states in several post games), and completely misrepresents my scum game, which is hilarious since my most noted scum win happened with drey on the team (granted he was lynched day one or shot night one or something). Also my posts have a lot of purpose, where is the proof I'm not scumhunting, and the phrase "and it shows" is something he threw in so he didnt actually have to show [I]how[/I] it shows.
This is contrived and a farce.
Seems about right.
More when head is not pounding.
List tags are malformed.
I was summarizing from my point of view. You are right that I wasn't thinking about the DRey wagon.* I think it's reasonable to expect people to have opinions on the wagons in progress.
*I just searched for votes, but the colons that everyone voting DRey used threw me off and he wasn't in the last vote count, and I just forgot about it. I see there are actually THREE people on that wagon.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Whoah man, that's like 3 full Finger of Suspicions! DRey is just like that. He's goofing off a bit.
Taredes hadn't claimed that he had a triple vote yet, but somehow Asenion already knows this. How? Because they are scumbuddies. Other people picked up on this as well (that Asenion is speaking from inside knowledge), but this is the start of where I felt Asenion was scum.
In all seriousness, I'm a responsive poster and I'm really bad at Day 1. So please don't look to me to get discussion started. If it's up to me, I would seriously just lynch Kpaca and worry about anything else later.
Pushes the horrible 'lynch kpaca for meta' agenda...
Because on Day 1 I feel like it's mostly random. I think kpaca's playstyle tends to be bad for the town and I don't know like half the players in this game. Given no other information I would lynch him. I'll probably change my vote at the first hint of scummyness elsewhere.
Pushes it again. The last part of that post just seems off...
Come on guys, I've said some stupid controversial things now and there's a real vote on me for it. How is that not enough to get conversation started?! Has everyone even posted yet? (Besides obviously the guy who has vanished.)
So we don't lynch people for being a bad townie, but openly declaring that you are acting horribly is not a Townie trait...
Yeah, I doubt there's much to work with from flavor. I thought I was scum reading the first part of my role until I got to the part that explicitly said I was town.
First off, Townies don't worry about how their claims will come off to others because they know the truth is on their side. Townies worry about whether they can glean any information from other people's claims.
Cyouni, is your vote because Nis is the first person to mention neutrals this game?
Townies ask questions about what the intent of someone's vote might be, they don't give them an answer. This comes accross as more of Asenion trying to appear to scumhunt without doing so, and look for an excuse to jump on a wagon.
I really didn't think you two were serious about the # of fingers thing. Hand of Suspicion > Finger of Suspicion and 3x power was the first thing that came to mind. Sure, 5 fingers makes more sense for a hand.
Has to backtrack because he know he is caught.
Taredas, what would you think of me giving you my vote toDay? I'm not kidding about being bad at Day 1. My votes usually end up random until I've analyzed a vote-wagon post-flip and seen a round of Night actions.
Townies take responsibility for their vote. This is a HUGE no-no. If you were Town, you would have no clue as to whether Taredes was telling the truth or whether you were putting your vote in the hand of a mafioso or not. The fact that its Taredes makes it almost certain that you two are scum together.
It was just an offer man. I was thinking you didn't hav a vote and I'm bad at Day 1, so my vote might be more useful in your hands. Sure it removes responsibility from me and weakens tells on me, but it would have the opposite effect on you.
You even know why its wrong, yet you try to rationalize it....
Btw, I just realized something about my role that the town needs to know. I'm a self-janitor. When I die I will not flip, my role will not be revealed, and my alignment will not be revealed.
Why does the Town "need to know" this? If you are killed and we don't get to know your alignment, you telling us you are Town doesn't help. This doesn't come from a town mindset.
I was only sort of trying to bait with my partial claim. It's the truth, but I waited for a time to claim it when I thought someone would bite. Then like a moron I got excited and didn't wait for him to incriminate himself further, which mostly ruined the "gambit". Now I'm waiting for people to respond to any of the like 10 crazy things I've said or done this game, and no one is responding at all. I think I play my best when I'm being pressured by people.
Interesting that you say this because at the first hint of someone voting for you, your reaction is to OMGUS....
I actually think ForgottenOne is scum at this point, but I really like your point on DesCoures. Your analysis of his fencesitting is spot on, and I didn't see it at all the first time. Well crafted post by him IMO. Keep talking and I might switch votes.
So you have no idea why I'm voting for you, but you think I'm scum.... yeah right. Nice fence-sit and subtle push on the DesCoures wagon (who I think is probably Town)
Interesting, so I'm not the only overpowered person in the game. Taredas, if you can prove your role when we decide who to lynch toDay, I will consider you 98% town. (It would be nearly impossible to balance a scum triple voter in a Mini, only reason I leave 98% on there is because this is a Xyre game and he COULD make that work.).
Taredes claims his triple-vote, but obviously Asension already knew that.
More to the point, how is being a self-janitor an "overpowered" role unless you are mafia? If you were Town, you would know that your alignment not being revealed upon death majorly screws the rest of us out of information and is actually a big negative if it were true.
I had my reasons to wait, but here is my reasoning:
Taredes hadn't claimed that he had a triple vote yet, but somehow Asenion already knows this. How? Because they are scumbuddies. Other people picked up on this as well (that Asenion is speaking from inside knowledge), but this is the start of where I felt Asenion was scum.
This is my favorite coincidence in a long time. I didn't realize that had happened, but I'm literally giggling at this fact. Your logic is fairly sound, and if Taredas is scum, I am really suspicious of the people who jumped at my original 3x comment. I had no idea what was coming, but I bet the spectators are loving this.
Pushes the horrible 'lynch kpaca for meta' agenda...
I admitted that I started this and I was confused why Nis took the rap for it. As I said though, I was happy to move my vote as soon as real scum popped up.
So we don't lynch people for being a bad townie, but openly declaring that you are acting horribly is not a Townie trait...
Admitting my flaws is a neutral behavior. Trying to bait scum or create responses in people that get the game moving is not scummy either.
First off, Townies don't worry about how their claims will come off to others because they know the truth is on their side. Townies worry about whether they can glean any information from other people's claims.
Bull crap. Everyone has to worry about how their claim sounds. I've seen countless townsfolk get lynched because they claimed wrong. In fact, I've exploited this in games where I was scum to cause mislynches. Claims have to be read, re-read, and handled with utmost care regardless of alignment.
Townies ask questions about what the intent of someone's vote might be, they don't give them an answer. This comes accross as more of Asenion trying to appear to scumhunt without doing so, and look for an excuse to jump on a wagon.
I wanted to clarify his intention. I had a guess at what it was, but I wanted a confirm/deny from him. I probably shouldn't be so obvious, and could have played that better, I admit.
Has to backtrack because he know he is caught.
Back to the 3-fingers thing? This is seriously now my favorite part of the game. I hope this goes down in mafia history.
Townies take responsibility for their vote. This is a HUGE no-no. If you were Town, you would have no clue as to whether Taredes was telling the truth or whether you were putting your vote in the hand of a mafioso or not. The fact that its Taredes makes it almost certain that you two are scum together.
Why would I offer my vote to a scumbuddy? That's clearly one of the worst possible scum actions. I offered him a vote because I wanted to see what he would do with it. I wanted to empower someone who was clearly an experienced player so that I could get reads on them.
Why does the Town "need to know" this? If you are killed and we don't get to know your alignment, you telling us you are Town doesn't help. This doesn't come from a town mindset.
The town needs to know I'm a self-janitor because of Night Kills. If I died at Night, it wouldn't show up and you would get no information. I want everyone to be aware of my limitations so they know what is happening. In addition, it makes me a bad Day 1 lynch candidate because we need information to get the game started and having no Day 1 flip would be severely hindering to the town. Finally, I said it because I thought someone would jump on me for having a clearly scum oriented role and the person who did so would probably be scum themselves going for low hanging fruit.
Again, you state that you are openly "acting" scummy yet you jump to the conclusion that I must be voting you for your role claim....
Well you admitted that you were voting me for my role claim and didn't put forth any other reasons. What else should I think?
Interesting that you say this because at the first hint of someone voting for you, your reaction is to OMGUS....
You weren't the first person to vote me this game. Just the first person to vote for me because of scummy reasons. I'm unconcerned with being voted for except that what I knew of your mindset when you voted me was very scum-centric.
So you have no idea why I'm voting for you, but you think I'm scum.... yeah right. Nice fence-sit and subtle push on the DesCoures wagon (who I think is probably Town)
No, I want your side of the story. I think I know why you voted, but I can say whatever I want about you; The real evidence is when the town hears your explanation. The point is to gain information on people and you clamming up about your reasons for voting is anti-town. I will pressure that as long as I have to until it yields an answer.
More to the point, how is being a self-janitor an "overpowered" role unless you are mafia? If you were Town, you would know that your alignment not being revealed upon death majorly screws the rest of us out of information and is actually a big negative if it were true.
Self-Janitor and "overpowered" are unrelated. Self-janitor is one of the restrictions I have due to my actual power. I realize how significant of a restriction that is, but I still get a boner from the rest of my role's power level. (God, Xyre games are so fun. He makes the most interesting roles!)
Conclusion: Asenion and Taredes are scum
Alternate conclusion: Forgotten One is trying to fabricate a non-existent conspiracy that would result in two town deaths.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Forgotten One, either you're not thinking or you're scum fabricating a case, because there is an ENORMOUS hole in your reasoning, one that has absolutely nothing to do with your arguments against Asenion.
I've cut out all the arguments except the ones that specifically mention me, because those are the important ones:
Taredes hadn't claimed that he had a triple vote yet, but somehow Asenion already knows this. How? Because they are scumbuddies. Other people picked up on this as well (that Asenion is speaking from inside knowledge), but this is the start of where I felt Asenion was scum.
A) I was the player who came down most heavily asking Asenion for the reason for the "three fingers" comment (I said that the reasoning would become obvious by the end of the day - yes, of COURSE I was referencing my triple vote). Why would I do that as scum? (And don't even think about "to warn Asenion about his slip" - check the second post, scum have DAYTALK and can warn each other about things outside the thread.)
B) So you think I'm also scum. More on this in just a moment.
Townies take responsibility for their vote. This is a HUGE no-no. If you were Town, you would have no clue as to whether Taredes was telling the truth or whether you were putting your vote in the hand of a mafioso or not. The fact that its Taredes makes it almost certain that you two are scum together.
Why, specifically, scum together? For the sake of argument, let's say that Asen and I were actually scum together. Why would Asenion make an offer like that to a scumbuddy (thus tying him to to that buddy), especially so early? Why assume that over the possibility that Asen is scum trying to buddy up to a player he sees as a strong townie?
[QUOTE=Forgotten One;/comments/10904274]Taredes claims his triple-vote, but obviously Asension already knew that.
Here's the important part. You think that I am scum, because you clearly stated so earlier. You also think that I'm not lying about having a triple vote, because you're talking in terms of Asenion knowing I *have* it, rather than knowing that I would *claim* it.
In other words, you think I am scum with an ability that can potentially end the game on DAY 2 (requires that a town be lynched D1, two kills occur N1, and the Mafia win condition be "control the lynch", none of which are particularly implausible). But you're voting Asenion instead of me. Why is that, exactly?
One more nail in the coffin I just thought of. He is saying one of his main* reasons for voting me is because he thinks I somehow knew about your triple vote. The problem is, you claimed your triple vote AFTER he voted me.
Forgotten One voting me in post #87
Taredas revealed his triple vote in post #122
*I say main, because he mentioned it THREE times in his post condemning me.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
@ Taredes: Because if you are a scum triple-voter who can't vote except to hammer, you are fairly neutralized. The only reason I see to vote you over Asenion is that I have no idea if I'm right if we lynch Asenion and we don't actually get his alignment.
@Asenion: When you first mentioned the 3-finger thing, it was only a suspicion that you were talking from inside information. Taredes' claim to actually be a triple-voter just seals it. My vote was a culmination of about 4 or 5 things previous to that. Your behavior since then has just made me more sure of my read.
@ Taredes: Because if you are a scum triple-voter who can't vote except to hammer, you are fairly neutralized.
To use a MafiaScum expression:
X
Try again, please.
Let me lay out the part you're ignoring. Let's say that I'm scum with two other players, and that a townie is lynched D1, and that two more townies are killed N1 (from, say, the Mafia NK and a 1-shot vig). In that situation, here's what happens D2: nonTar scum #1 votes a player, then nonTarscum #2 votes that player, then I hammer and the game goes to night, rinse and repeat until enough townies are eliminated that the scum control the lynch period. Moreover, scum have daytalk (we know this because it's in the rules post), so they can coordinate this out of thread.
That's the extreme scenario - it's more likely that only one kill occurs N1 and a hypothetical scumteam including me would need to wait to D3 to do this, and said team might wait anyways to guard against vigs/town getting a quicklynch on the triple voter before they can chaingun another townie. Hell, if another scum gets lynched D1 this is a moot point. But if you really think I'm scum, isn't that a big risk to take? Why not try to take down the player who a) you claim to think is scum and b) who has claimed a triple vote?
For that matter, if you actually think I'm scum but are going to vote another player anyways, why the HELL are you attacking the player who has claimed an ability which makes it impossible to know if we lynched town or scum if we lynch him D1?
And now that I think about it: Why the "if" disclaimer at the start of the post? You've made it blatantly clear that you think I'm scum with Asenion and that you don't think I'm lying about my triple vote (or Actor restriction), but now you go and throw in that "if". I'm having trouble seeing a town motivation for that, and there's two really obvious reasons to do that if you're scum - because you want to leave yourself an out, and because you don't really want to draw the ire of a strong townie.
Or, to be more succinct: That "if" is wishy-washy as hell.
The only reason I see to vote you over Asenion is that I have no idea if I'm right if we lynch Asenion and we don't actually get his alignment.
You know what? If both Asen and I are town and you're scum, then from your perspective that's not a bug, but rather a feature. You get Asen lynched today, then you can just come right out tomorrow attacking me "for being his scumbuddy.
Hell, you can trot out the same argument that I used today in order to try to convince town that they have to lynch me tomorrow.
So, no. If you are actually town and actually think I'm scum, you're going to try to get me lynched today. Period.
@Asenion: When you first mentioned the 3-finger thing, it was only a suspicion that you were talking from inside information. Taredes' claim to actually be a triple-voter just seals it. My vote was a culmination of about 4 or 5 things previous to that. Your behavior since then has just made me more sure of my read.
Really now?
Let's take a look at the timeline here:
- Asenion makes his 3-finger comment back in post 23.
- I ask for Asenion's reasons for choosing the number 3 in post 35 ("I'll refrain from comment on most of this until DRey answers. but any particular reason for the number 3? I'd think 5 would be more obvious myself.").
- You unvote kpaca in post 48 without making any comments or questions about Asenion's 23, despite your claim here that you suspected it might indicate inside information.
- You continue not to say anything about Asenion's post 23 in your post 54.
- Cyouni asks Asenion about his 3-finger comment ("Where do you live that people only have three fingers a hand?") in post 58.
- I ask Asenion for an explanation of that 3-finger comment AGAIN in post 66 ("Asenion, why are you ignoring the question both Cyouni and I asked:").
- Asenion responds to the 3-finger question in post 67 ("I really didn't think you two were serious about the # of fingers thing. Hand of Suspicion > Finger of Suspicion and 3x power was the first thing that came to mind. Sure, 5 fingers makes more sense for a hand.").
- Cyouni follows up on his 3-finger question in 58 ("That was more rhetorical than anything else. However, my actual question remains unanswered:"). Note that my questioning was specifically about the number 3, as opposed to Cyouni's. Also note that scum have daytalk and if I was actually scum with Asenion I could just warn him about that comment outside the thread as opposed to drawing attention to it in thread.
- I crumb the existence of a role-based reason for being curious about the 3 in post 69 ("I have my reasons for being serious. They will become obvious by the end of the day.")
- You vote Asenion in post 87 ("Anybody else want to give themselves up as obvscum? "). You STILL haven't said anything about Asen's post 23 at this point.
So, you mean to tell me that you thought Asenion's 3-finger comment indicated some kind of inside information (apparently as soon as you saw it) but didn't question Asenion about it at all despite multiple players doing so AND despite my post 69 making it clear that I was asking about Asen's post 23 due to something about my role AND despite posting twice in the meantime?
For that matter, if you thought that I was scum with Asenion that early, why the hell weren't you showing any suspicion of me? You didn't even interact with me early, let alone question or indicate suspicion of me.
Yeah, no. I'm not buying that bridge. You're scum who got called on his lack of case and fabricated one after the fact.
UnHoS, HoS x3: Forgotten One
See, Asenion, THIS is what happens when you start playing actively and making cases D1.
Vote: Voxxicus for being the only player below me on the player list.
Now, the important part: Nobody else vote for Voxx until the mod posts a vote count.
Mod: Vote Count, please.
Why ask for an immediate vote count? Well, I have one of those abilities that needs to be claimed in my first post: I have a variant of the Actor voting restriction. If I am not the hammering vote for a player, my vote does nothing.
Corollary: I call the hammer today.
Once Xyre has posted a votecount, I will unvote and start using the Hand of Suspicion (HoS) as a pseudovote until it is time to hammer.
We now return to your regularly scheduled random vote stage.
X
Try again, please. Check the first vote count, I've already proven that my vote doesn't count if not hammering.
Also: Do you have experience over on MafiaScum? This kind of post looks awfully familiar...
I don't think it matters whether he unvotes when moving his HoS. I thought you were arguing that his "vote" had no power. The first one shouldn't even be a talking point, because that's pedantic nonsense. The second issue is worth discussing.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Yes because every time you have given a HoS its been on the hammer
Yes I do
Excellent! Thanks for claiming scum, we'll deal with you at the earliest opportunity (which is either "now" or "once Forgotten One is dealt with", not yet sure which).
I mean, come on. I may not know MTGS meta that well yet, but unless a huge change in playstyles has come down the pike in the last year or so I know the Scum meta, and by those standards Che's play is classic newbscum. He had a pass so long as I wasn't aware of his Scum experience. No longer. Observe:
Because a softclaim forces an early lie (sometimes) from scum that they could slip up about later
In MTGS meta that's null, but Scum meta frowns on early softclaims due to potentially outing power roles. Why, then, does Che not only show any suspicion towards KCC's softclaim proposal but also answer Nis's question on her behalf?
lol anyone serious about the kpaca lynch needs to check themselves before they wreak themselves
Why does Che feel the need to make this comment after 3 votes in random stage?
Hell, this reads badly for Che no matter what kpaca's alignment is. If kpaca is town, Che's going for townie points. If kpaca's scum, Che is derailing a wagon on a buddy.
Also, note that said post comes immediately after this post of FO's:
I'm not so sure he is town but I'm definitely sure that "Its day 1 and day one is random so lets lynch someone who we think will hurt the town in the long run" it a TERRIBLE policy.
You know, Che attacks Nis heavily later for backtracking. Now, is it just me, or is that "I'm not so sure he is town" backtracking? Hypocrisy, anyone?
This is the worse meta abuse I have seen in years. He could be a townie you know?
Unvote, vote Nis
Horrible policy.
And I quote: "Hell, this reads badly for Che no matter what kpaca's alignment is. If kpaca is town, Che's going for townie points. If kpaca's scum, Che is derailing a wagon on a buddy."
There is a possibility that anyone can be town, why random lynch and risk killing town?
Experienced enough to know that random lynching due to previous games is a horrible idea. And you even said that the reason is that he play well as neutral... thats hunting neutrals
I think you are lying and created some flimsy reasoning to lynch a good player that could be town. Its not about the neutral hunting its that you are backpedaling hard.
Uh, let me get this straight. You're trying to accuse Nis of backpedaling... by backpedaling yourself? That's just rich.
I mean seriously. The words don't lie. You just spent the last 3-4 posts attacking Nis for neutral hunting - now you turn around and claim that your case isn't about the neutral hunting? Yeah, no.
How did I miss this post earlier? Remember that "support wagon without actually voting" stuff Asen and DRey did re: the dC case? Add Che to the list of players who did that.
You said kpaca plays well as a neutral and that is why he should be random lynched if we have no option today. Again, explain to me how this isn't neutral hunting?
This is you expressing worry for the success of a neutral through the skills of kpaca.
Again, I couldn't care less if you were neutral hunting, I care that you are backpedaling and giving flimsy reasoning. You Asenion and desCoures are my current early game scum team read.
See underlined parts of the two above posts. Note that Che did not post between making the first post and making the second post.
Self-explanatory, I think.
Also, look at that scum list. All the players Che is suspicious of as of making this post are players who were already under suspicion when he voted. The only plausible exception is Che's vote on Nis, and Cyouni had already voted him at that point. Asenion had already drawn "what are you doing" comments from me
Also, note that Che has so far barned THREE reasons for attacks from my posts (neutral hunting and backpedaling re: Nis, fencesitting re: dC).
Goddamn FoS and HoS (wtf is a hand of suspicion?) are scummy as all hell
Now Che promptly abandons the Nis push (but never actually unvotes Nis, funny that) in order to attack me for... using a HoS as a pseudovote. Despite me explaining this in my first post of the game, no less.
Also, funny that you decide to pull this immediately after I reveal my triple vote. And funny that you claim not to know what a HoS is, then claim to have experience on MS. Are you seriously telling me that you've never read the MS Wiki?
You don't have to unvote FoS or HoS because its not real
What part of pseudovoting do you not understand? I'm treating my HoS as a vote.
Besides, even if you want to argue that the pseudovote isn't really threatening in the same way as a vote, then what about how it's still threatening in the sense of "if you ever reach L-3 you are at risk of being immediately hammered if I decide to start voting you for real"?
Yes because every time you have given a HoS its been on the hammer
Let me get this straight. You're saying that because I can't actually vote unless hammering... that until it's time to hammer I should simply sit down, shut up, and not indicate where my vote would be if it actually counted, just because said vote doesn't currently count? Instead of, you know, pseudovoting?
I commented earlier that I tend to ignore VIs because they'll come out in the wash - i.e, eventually they will say something which clarifies their alignment, no need to give scum an easy target to fake scumhunting on. Che Guavara is an excellent example. I've been ignoring him to give him more time to clarify whether or not he is scum. He just did so.
Look at his posts again. Notice how he's only attacked players who have come under attack from other sources and/or done something blatantly scummy looking. Note the tunnel vision and lack of attention paid outside three or so targets. Note that when Che decides he needs to attack a strong-looking town player he doesn't actually come out and say he thinks that I'm scum - hell, he's still voting Nis despite last saying anything about Nis at least two RL days ago. Moreover, Che has come out and said that he thinks certain players are scum only ONCE during the game (late during his active push on Nis).
Finally, look at the timing of his attack on me. Che only bothers to attack me for using the HoS as a pseudovote after I claim my triple vote. Is that the action of town who suspects another player, or is that the action of scum trying to discredit a strong town power role? For that matter, that's TWICE this game that Che has come to kpaca's defense - and both times he's done so by trying to discredit players attacking kpaca. Chainsaw Defense is unreliable until the player defended flips scum, but still.
He's not the only one acting like this, either: remember Forgotten One, who jumped off the kpaca randomwagon in a hurry then brought me into the Asenion case after I attacked kpaca/revealed my triple vote? Isn't it remarkable that FO and Che *both* moved off kpaca when a randomwagon was starting to form, and *both* starting attacking me when and only when I revealed my triple vote and voted kpaca? Note how Che intensified his attack on me when I pseudovoted FO.
I'm not sure that kpaca's scum (there's at least one other strong candidate for being the third scum, and I haven't seen enough to draw any firm conclusions). I am, however, reasonably sure that Forgotten One and Che Guavara are scumbuddies.
Excellent! Thanks for claiming scum, we'll deal with you at the earliest opportunity (which is either "now" or "once Forgotten One is dealt with", not yet sure which).
I mean, come on. I may not know MTGS meta that well yet, but unless a huge change in playstyles has come down the pike in the last year or so I know the Scum meta, and by those standards Che's play is classic newbscum. He had a pass so long as I wasn't aware of his Scum experience. No longer. Observe:
I am not a noob and this is my first game here (along with 2 other I am currently in) so the whole "mtgs meta" thing will be irrelevant.
Why does Che feel the need to make this comment after 3 votes in random stage?
Because some were obviously a joke, and I said "if anyone is serious" ala directed at the whole "kpaca is auto scum" crap.
You know, Che attacks Nis heavily later for backtracking. Now, is it just me, or is that "I'm not so sure he is town" backtracking? Hypocrisy, anyone?
the bakctrack was the whole "kpaca play good as scum, lets lynch him" and then denying the attempt at hunting neutrals later. But nice misrep
Let me get this straight. You're saying that because I can't actually vote unless hammering... that until it's time to hammer I should simply sit down, shut up, and not indicate where my vote would be if it actually counted, just because said vote doesn't currently count? Instead of, you know, pseudovoting?
X
Sorry, try again.
I'm saying you don't have to unvote a FoS or HoS. Its not about voting someone. Please read my posts.
Taredas is the only one attempting to lead the town and move the game forward. If you want to take up leadership and do something, you go right ahead. Otherwise don't try and shut down the only person making progress. Trying to discredit Taredas at the current point without making a serious wagon of your own is anti-town.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I am not a noob and this is my first game here (along with 2 other I am currently in) so the whole "mtgs meta" thing will be irrelevant.
What part of "you claimed to have played on Scum, over on Scum these kinds of posts tend to come from Scum" don't you understand? MTGS meta has nothing to do with that.
the bakctrack was the whole "kpaca play good as scum, lets lynch him" and then denying the attempt at hunting neutrals later. But nice misrep
Let me throw your own rhetoric back in your face: Read MY post.
In three posts you raise the possibility that kpaca could be town, therefore we shouldn't lynch him yet. When asked about it (by DRey and Cyouni), you specify that you're not sure that kpaca is town. Why, specifically, the "kpaca could be town" reasoning?
Besides, you carefully ignored your second, more important backpedal: In one post you claim that Nis is scum (or at least scummy) due to neutral hunting, but in your VERY next post you claim that you don't actually care about the neutral hunting (posts 100 and 110, respectively). Which one is it?
You're right, I don't technically *have* to unHoS. I'm doing it anyways, to make it clear that I would be unvoting if I were actually voting. Got a problem with that?
So, your reaction to the most important part of the case (say, contradicting yourself in consecutive posts, mostly [I'd say only, but I'm not sure about Nis] attacking players who are already being attacked by others, the timing of you deciding to attack me, arguing that people should just ignore my HoS, etc.)... is to dismiss them as "reading too deep"?
Even by MafiaScum VI standards, that's not a town response to a wagon.
Everytime Taredas posts that stupid x I'm more convinced hes scum.
X
Really now? You think I'm scum... for a rhetorical device... but fail to explain how said device is scummy, instead just trying to discredit it with "stupid"... and claim that you are increasingly convinced I'm scum, but fail to vote me despite me pointing out earlier that if you are town and think I am scum then you want me lynched above any other player today?
Yeah no.
---
Note: Preemptive Declare V/LA (duration currently unknown) on account of a family member currently being in the hospital. I'm not sure that this will affect my access at all (there's other family members handling the "stay at the hospital" part right now), but if I drop off the face of the Earth for a bit that's why.
What part of "you claimed to have played on Scum, over on Scum these kinds of posts tend to come from Scum" don't you understand? MTGS meta has nothing to do with that.
Again, kpaca was in no danger of being lynched. Hell, Forgotten One had just unvoted him. Why make this comment then?
While I'm here, I must ask: Killa seven, is that you?
Let me throw your own rhetoric back in your face: Read MY post.
In three posts you raise the possibility that kpaca could be town, therefore we shouldn't lynch him yet. When asked about it (by DRey and Cyouni), you specify that you're not sure that kpaca is town. Why, specifically, the "kpaca could be town" reasoning?
Besides, you carefully ignored your second, more important backpedal: In one post you claim that Nis is scum (or at least scummy) due to neutral hunting, but in your VERY next post you claim that you don't actually care about the neutral hunting (posts 100 and 110, respectively). Which one is it?
You're right, I don't technically *have* to unHoS. I'm doing it anyways, to make it clear that I would be unvoting if I were actually voting. Got a problem with that?
So, your reaction to the most important part of the case (say, contradicting yourself in consecutive posts, mostly [I'd say only, but I'm not sure about Nis] attacking players who are already being attacked by others, the timing of you deciding to attack me, arguing that people should just ignore my HoS, etc.)... is to dismiss them as "reading too deep"?
Even by MafiaScum VI standards, that's not a town response to a wagon.
---
X
Really now? You think I'm scum... for a rhetorical device... but fail to explain how said device is scummy, instead just trying to discredit it with "stupid"... and claim that you are increasingly convinced I'm scum, but fail to vote me despite me pointing out earlier that if you are town and think I am scum then you want me lynched above any other player today?
Yeah no.
---
Note: Preemptive Declare V/LA (duration currently unknown) on account of a family member currently being in the hospital. I'm not sure that this will affect my access at all (there's other family members handling the "stay at the hospital" part right now), but if I drop off the face of the Earth for a bit that's why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah no.
*insert large red x*
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Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
It's because the post you quoted had a messed up quote in it. With the internal quotes removed, his messed up quote interfered with your quote. Also, I've always been under the impression that you shouldn't ninja edit even to fix a quote.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Me saying "kpaca could be scum" means that there is a possibility he could be town.... and I don't want to randomly lynch someone because "they are good as a neutral".
I never said that I cared Nis was neutral hunting (I think that was the cupcake guy), I cared that he would happily lynch someone who is good as a neutral and then also said I only cared about the backpeddle because that's a scummy trait.
I know kpaca wasn't close to being lynched buy by my standard, only scum would want to randomly lynch someone and I was trying to hunt them down for saying and agreeing with it.
I'm quite a simple poster, I make generally small posts that are straight to the point, and I think getting incredibly deep off that is just grasping at straws trying to find something wrong with my posts when in reality its should just be accepted at face value.
Why not both? I'm not sure about here, but over on Scum voting a buddy early but never really pushing the case is a classic distancing method.
It's not impossible, but the degree to which they've been sniping at each other seems a little over the top for that. Specifically Forgotten One appears to be rather hellbent on killing off Asenion. I'd place it at a low probability, especially after Forgotten One's laughable 'case' on you and Asenion being scumbuddies, and Asenion's unquotable response.
Here's the important part. You think that I am scum, because you clearly stated so earlier. You also think that I'm not lying about having a triple vote, because you're talking in terms of Asenion knowing I *have* it, rather than knowing that I would *claim* it.
In other words, you think I am scum with an ability that can potentially end the game on DAY 2 (requires that a town be lynched D1, two kills occur N1, and the Mafia win condition be "control the lynch", none of which are particularly implausible). But you're voting Asenion instead of me. Why is that, exactly?
....huh.
This is actually an extremely good point. And Forgotten One's answer is very much insufficient.
The criteria was a neutral in a mini. Now you're moving the goalposts. Of course this is all just a distracting rabbit hole. I've explained myself enough times.
A survivor is a very different beast from an SK/cult leader/other actively anti-town neutral.
But fine. There are better places to look than you right now anyway.
...so not only is this no better than a random vote, you choose... the player who, just based on his ability (as long as he proves it later) and the timing of his claim, is probably least likely to be scum at this point.
If this is supposed to be activelurking, it's probably the worst attempt at it I've ever seen.
FoS: AtheistGod
@Asenion
Do me a favour. Don't respond within quotes again. Now that nested quotes is gone, it makes whatever you wrote totally unquotable.
What is your experience level Che Guevara? Roughly how many games have you played and how strong of a player do you consider yourself? For example I've played ~25 games probably and I would say I'm overall like a 6/10 mafia player skill level.
@Taredas: Btw, I do see how a lot of my actions seem somewhat anti-town. They DO all have a purpose though. I don't actually want to be lynched Day 1 because as a self-janitor that would screw us out of our Day 1 wagon/flip information. After that it shouldn't be as big of deal and I have no problem with dying as long as it's not by Night Kill.
This doesn't fit at all with your claim of being 'overpowered town' balanced by being a self-janitor. In fact, nothing about your actions does.
I'm a little bit afraid to try and lead the town because most of my reads so far are really meh. I would push more on ForgottenOne, but he only has 7 posts and basically no content in any of them. 6/7 of his posts are about kpaca, but don't actually offer an opinion one way or the other. The 7th post is him voting me, but he didn't post reasons for why he voted me and refused to tell me why he was voting me when I asked him. The only answer I got was that my self-janitor status was part of the reason, but "not the whole reason." This indecisiveness, lack of commitment, and attacking of the obvious low hanging fruit is enough for me to believe he is scum, but not a lot to build a case on. He's my only strong scum read right now and there is no point in build a case for "townieness" this early in the game. (And arguably never since buddying is inherently a scummy action.)
In those 7 posts I found suspicious points on which I pushed Forgotten One. Why didn't you? And, for that matter, what did you think of my points on how jumpy he was about the kpaca wagon?
There are now 4 wagons to respond to. DRey wants kpaca lynched on meta. Taredas wants me lynched for acting scummy. Nis wants AthiestGod lynched for voting Taredas without reason. I want ForgottenOne lynched for a bad vote and not explaining himself or rooducing content.
Everyone else should have an opinion on at least 1-2 of these wagons.
I don't like your failure to count the DRey wagon in this post. Which, as you 'realize' later, is actually the current largest wagon, with 3 actual votes on it.
I've played with you in Clue, Seasons, WOW and Enders(maybe even more I don't remember). I've also read some games with you, how that's not many games? Also I'm talking about your scumgame because I have an unique perspective from having played with you before, I'm not "misreping" it and I can prove because I read the Seasons Mafia QT, where you keep Pale mage alive just for him to do the work while you actively lurked and handweaved your attackers until the bitter end.
And how different is this from how kpaca plays as town?
You are being dense, haven't you previously said Tar had your vote? Why being so bullheaded now? If you are really indifferent towards Kpaca while thinking the game is stalled just vote him as two of your townreads are doing (me and Tar).
...Taredas wasn't pseudovoting kpaca any more at the point this post was made. That's blatant buddying with Taredas. And finally, that's a terrible reason to vote someone anyway. Townies can be and are wrong on a regular basis.
This is pretty bad. You claimed to be a self-janitor but self-janitors have no reason to be scummy on purpose (in fact I don't see any role that has, besides jester). I know you lie as town, but I'm not too fond of liars.
Freudian slip there? I think that just did more to tilt my opinion of Asenion towards town than almost anything this entire game.
Anyway, there's not just one scum left and F1 doesn't look very experienced so if he's indeed scum we will catch him sooner or later, no need to sweat about it.
I didn't like it when Taredas said this about you, and I definitely don't like it now that you're saying it about Forgotten One. There is absolutely no reason not to pressure possible newbie scum on day 1. Mods don't (or at least, should not) purposely give better scum roles to more experienced scum. And, in fact, newbie scum are more likely to slip up and provide links to their scumbuddies. Add this to the fact that this is a mini, where that 'sooner or later' encompasses a rather shorter time frame, and this kind of statement becomes all the more questionable.
For Taredas, it's probably a difference in playstyles across sites - it's fairly unlikely for him to be scum as long as he can prove his ability. You, on the other hand, have no such excuse either way.
@Forgotten One
You're ignoring me as well. I really don't like that, especially given you actually responded to my points the first time round... and then now seem to have dropped any attempt to respond to them. Don't have a proper excuse, hm?
And are you seriously suggesting that Taredas' ability would be 'neutralized' on scum by his inability to vote normally? That's utter bovine faeces.
Everytime Taredas posts that stupid x I'm more convinced hes scum.
...now that I look at it, you called Taredas 'probably scum' before. Why is that?
---------------------------
Re: Taredas' Che case
Mmm. I'm not entirely convinced yet - a lot of that case looks like reaching to some extent, such as the bit on backtracking. A number of comments below:
Why does Che feel the need to make this comment after 3 votes in random stage?
Hell, this reads badly for Che no matter what kpaca's alignment is. If kpaca is town, Che's going for townie points. If kpaca's scum, Che is derailing a wagon on a buddy.
Also, note that said post comes immediately after this post of FO's:
Eh. I don't think that reads half as bad as Forgotten One's post. There's a distinct difference between rubbishing a rubbish wagon and being hyper-aware enough of said wagon to jump off at a mere 3 votes.
How did I miss this post earlier? Remember that "support wagon without actually voting" stuff Asen and DRey did re: the dC case? Add Che to the list of players who did that.
Also, look at that scum list. All the players Che is suspicious of as of making this post are players who were already under suspicion when he voted. The only plausible exception is Che's vote on Nis, and Cyouni had already voted him at that point. Asenion had already drawn "what are you doing" comments from me
Also, note that Che has so far barned THREE reasons for attacks from my posts (neutral hunting and backpedaling re: Nis, fencesitting re: dC).
All of this, however, is very true, now that I look at it. I'm not actually sure how I missed Che doing that first bit earlier.
Now Che promptly abandons the Nis push (but never actually unvotes Nis, funny that) in order to attack me for... using a HoS as a pseudovote. Despite me explaining this in my first post of the game, no less.
Also, funny that you decide to pull this immediately after I reveal my triple vote. And funny that you claim not to know what a HoS is, then claim to have experience on MS. Are you seriously telling me that you've never read the MS Wiki?
Mmm. Not convinced on the 'after the triple vote reveal', but the HoS is a good point. The last time I looked at MafiaScum was several years ago, but HoS was definitely already around at that point.
He's not the only one acting like this, either: remember Forgotten One, who jumped off the kpaca randomwagon in a hurry then brought me into the Asenion case after I attacked kpaca/revealed my triple vote? Isn't it remarkable that FO and Che *both* moved off kpaca when a randomwagon was starting to form, and *both* starting attacking me when and only when I revealed my triple vote and voted kpaca? Note how Che intensified his attack on me when I pseudovoted FO.
I'm not sure that kpaca's scum (there's at least one other strong candidate for being the third scum, and I haven't seen enough to draw any firm conclusions). I am, however, reasonably sure that Forgotten One and Che Guavara are scumbuddies.
The first paragraph is probably reaching a bit at this point in time, without any flips. I could see Forgotten One and Che as scumbuddies, though. Especially given this questionable response:
the bakctrack was the whole "kpaca play good as scum, lets lynch him" and then denying the attempt at hunting neutrals later. But nice misrep
Other than how utterly fake that smiley comes across as, you're the one misrepresenting here. I found what Nis said about kpaca questionable as well - but that's not at all what he said. He neither said 'let's lynch him' nor called him scum in that post.
I know kpaca wasn't close to being lynched buy by my standard, only scum would want to randomly lynch someone and I was trying to hunt them down for saying and agreeing with it.
...question, then. After looking at a list of Nis' posts, I realize that at no point was Nis ever voting kpaca. The list of people who voted kpaca at that point was: Forgotten One (unvoted questionably), Asenion (RVS voted together with a fake daykill, of all things), and DRey (apparently serious and totally unsubstantiated vote). Out of these three, the only one you had on your scumlist was Asenion. A far cry from trying to 'hunt down' anyone close to that wagon, no?
And looking at your posts, you never actually went after Asenion - you just suddenly had him on a scum list next to me and Nis. This seems disingenuous, at the least.
...one further question, Che. Why was your very first post in this game a '100% serious vote' on DRey?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I'm responding to what you directed at me first, then I'll read the rest of your message.
-I see what you mean about the unquotable response. I'll just have to go to a lot more formatting trouble next time to open and close the quote I'm responding to manually.
-You are welcome to judge my skill level on whatever metric you wish. I judge it with my own metric and that was an opinion statement. Also, that was an average. I've only ever lost one scum game and I consider myself an excellent scum. On the other hand, I'm less than 6/10 on town even by my own estimation. Town is hard, there just isn't enough information to go around.
-I reserve the right to say whatever I want about my role and not answer questions about it unless I feel they help the town. If you have a problem with that, get me to L-2 and we will have a new conversation.
-Forgotten One's discussion of kpaca seemed pretty neutral to me and it didn't help that I think the whole kpaca situation is a waste of time for everyone. From what I've seen of kpaca, he will troll the town and run us in a circle regardless of his alignment. (Hence why I started RVS with a semi-serious vote on him. He's just note helpful IMO.) Otherwise, I DID find things scummy in his 7 posts and started a case which I later expanded and Taredas expanded further. Everything Forgotten One has said lately has been scummy, and I think his silence now is likely his scumbuddies telling him to shut up while they try to draw attention away.
-I literally forgot about the DRey wagon because I don't think DRey is scum and figured the people on his wagon would move on eventually on their own. I never took that wagon very seriously. It was my bad, but I make mistakes.
Ok, now onward to read the rest of your post.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Other than how utterly fake that smiley comes across as, you're the one misrepresenting here. I found what Nis said about kpaca questionable as well - but that's not at all what he said. He neither said 'let's lynch him' nor called him scum in that post.
Sorry I meant he said "kpaca plays good as a neutral, lets lynch him"
...that's one of the most blatant handwaves I've ever seen.
I can't really answer over analysed posts because they are over analysed. Call it whatever you want.
...question, then. After looking at a list of Nis' posts, I realize that at no point was Nis ever voting kpaca. The list of people who voted kpaca at that point was: Forgotten One (unvoted questionably), Asenion (RVS voted together with a fake daykill, of all things), and DRey (apparently serious and totally unsubstantiated vote). Out of these three, the only one you had on your scumlist was Asenion. A far cry from trying to 'hunt down' anyone close to that wagon, no?
I was questioning. In fact, I questioned a bit until my vote on Nis. I got the most solid read from Nis' posts compared to the others agreeing with the kpaca policy.
And looking at your posts, you never actually went after Asenion - you just suddenly had him on a scum list next to me and Nis. This seems disingenuous, at the least.
...one further question, Che. Why was your very first post in this game a '100% serious vote' on DRey?
I was about to form a case on Asenion until I had to defend the claims from Taredas. I'm getting to it.
There was a post by I would not like to get into it at this point but save it for later. Its the reason I voted him 100% serious. Its only a single post and I must stress that it is very important I save it for later because it will confirm him as scum if my thoughts are right.
Mod: V/LA is a false alarm. Sorry about that. (When you've had a family member suffer a stroke in the last five years and then hear that another family member is in the hospital with memory loss, you get a little paranoid. Luckily, it's something much less serious.)
Me saying "kpaca could be scum" means that there is a possibility he could be town.... and I don't want to randomly lynch someone because "they are good as a neutral".
Randomly lynching is stupid period - even if the random lynch hits scum (and the odds are against it, because even if there's a neutral and three scum in a 12-player mini then 2/3 of the players are town), the town is liable to be uninformed D2.
There are plenty of good arguments against random lynching. Why bother mentioning kpaca's alignment so many times?
I never said that I cared Nis was neutral hunting (I think that was the cupcake guy), I cared that he would happily lynch someone who is good as a neutral and then also said I only cared about the backpeddle because that's a scummy trait.
Experienced enough to know that random lynching due to previous games is a horrible idea. And you even said that the reason is that he play well as neutral... thats hunting neutrals
But your reasoning as to why kpaca should be the one is that he plays well as a neutral. Tell me how that isn't neutral hunting?
Please explain how "caring that he's neutral hunting" is different from "caring that he would happily lynch someone who's good as a neutral", and how the last two quoted posts fit with the latter instead of the former.
Note to self: If Che is scum then KCC is more likely to be town given the deflection.
I know kpaca wasn't close to being lynched buy by my standard, only scum would want to randomly lynch someone and I was trying to hunt them down for saying and agreeing with it.
1) FYI: Only scum? I wish. (In the linked game - Mafia Invictus on Scum - a player was random lynched D1 mostly on the impetus of a Townie [Fate]. Only two scum out of four were on the wagon, and the hammer was town.)
I've said it once, I'll say it again: Just because someone is playing poorly does not necessarily mean they are Mafia.
2) Why should I believe that you're Town trying to hunt scum rather than, say, Mafia trying to get a Townie lynched knowing that you can explain the attack with "he was doing these scummy things"?
I'm quite a simple poster, I make generally small posts that are straight to the point, and I think getting incredibly deep off that is just grasping at straws trying to find something wrong with my posts when in reality its should just be accepted at face value.
Public service announcement. (That post was useful to me even while I was back on Scum, it's something you might want to take a look at.)
See, I'm trying to figure out *why* you're making your posts. For example: why do you think I should just "accept [your posts] at face value"?
Also, why did you completely drop my comments re: the HoS?
This doesn't fit at all with your claim of being 'overpowered town' balanced by being a self-janitor. In fact, nothing about your actions does.
Actually... that's not entirely correct. I was giving this some thought myself, and there *is* a way that Asenion's actions make perfectly good sense as town (they're not optimal, no, but if I'm right about what's going on then I've seen worse responses). I'd rather not elaborate at this time.
There are plenty of good arguments against random lynching. Why bother mentioning kpaca's alignment so many times?
How many times have I mentioned it bar the times people have questioned me about it?
Please explain how "caring that he's neutral hunting" is different from "caring that he would happily lynch someone who's good as a neutral", and how the last two quoted posts fit with the latter instead of the former.
Cupcake said Nis was neutral hunting, Nis denied it, and I came in claiming he is backpedaling by questioning "How is that not neutral hunting". I think Backpedaling is scummy, not Neutral hunting. I never once claimed Nis was scum for the neutral hunt.
1) FYI: Only scum? I wish. (In the linked game - Mafia Invictus on Scum - a player was random lynched D1 mostly on the impetus of a Townie [Fate]. Only two scum out of four were on the wagon, and the hammer was town.)
I've said it once, I'll say it again: Just because someone is playing poorly does not necessarily mean they are Mafia.
2) Why should I believe that you're Town trying to hunt scum rather than, say, Mafia trying to get a Townie lynched knowing that you can explain the attack with "he was doing these scummy things"?
lol I don't read any outside game links because I don't care for meta. Stated that multiple times.
You don't have to believe anything I say, I'm doing my way of finding scum. It works for me.
Public service announcement. (That post was useful to me even while I was back on Scum, it's something you might want to take a look at.)
See, I'm trying to figure out *why* you're making your posts. For example: why do you think I should just "accept [your posts] at face value"?
Also, why did you completely drop my comments re: the HoS?
Because I post them at face value. I'm not a 13 year old girl trying to be meaningful through a few sentences. But again man, whatever you think, lol.
Note to self: If Che is scum then KCC is more likely to be town given the deflection.
What struck me in your exchange with Che was how he has tried to pass off KCC as the originator of the neutral hunting accusation when in reality it was you. KCC never accused me of neutral hunting.
You're ignoring me as well. I really don't like that, especially given you actually responded to my points the first time round... and then now seem to have dropped any attempt to respond to them. Don't have a proper excuse, hm?
What the hell are you talking about? I responded to your question already.
And are you seriously suggesting that Taredas' ability would be 'neutralized' on scum by his inability to vote normally? That's utter bovine faeces.
My assumption is that if he's scum, there is something else about his role that he's not telling us that would balance it out (I can think of three ways of doing it just off the top of my head). Otherwise, the setup was broken to begin with. My other assumption is that in this game, up is down, left is right, and whatever we think we know about whether a role is obv-Town or obv-Scum is kinda out the door. The other thing to consider is that if he's lying scum, who knows what his role actually is.
Quote from Asenion »
Everything Forgotten One has said lately has been scummy, and I think his silence now is likely his scumbuddies telling him to shut up while they try to draw attention away.
So which is it? Am I being silent or am I saying scummy things? Because its kinda hard to do both....
I have a life on the weekends, so this isn't me being quiet. And my previous arguments against you stand on their own merit. Of course you and Taredes don't agree with them, but that's irrelvant as far as I'm concerned. What's relevant is your counter-attack which consists of voting for me based on nothing.
If you think the roles mean the opposite of what they normally would, then why are you voting me based on my role being a traditionally scum role.
You can keep saying this over and over, and I will continue to respond over and over that this is NOT the reason I voted for you. In a vacuum, I don't know what we would do with your roleclaim.
You can keep saying this over and over, and I will continue to respond over and over that this is NOT the reason I voted for you. In a vacuum, I don't know what we would do with your roleclaim.
I keep saying it because it's the reason you cited after voting for me? Why do you keep denying your previous words? Do I need to go quote it again?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
However F1 showed unexpected insights when he noticed such subtleties from Asen and Tar conversation about fingers not in like in a good way, because it seems like inside information. I don't know what to think anymore but considering both of them are the only two pushing this game right now I'm against their wagons.
How about we reveal our top suspects to hopefully reach a consensus? I'm fine with a lynch of either Kpaca (for previous reasons) or Che (I quite like the case against him).
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You vote for me in post #87 in response to me claiming self-janitor and all you said was: "Anyone else what to give themselves up as scum?". When pressured, in post #97 you say "your role claim was only part of it" but don't give any other reason for voting me. Finally, almost 60 posts later in post #156 you give an alternate reason for the first time. However, your alternate reasons for voting me involve information that you didn't have until a post in the 120s.
Therefore, your own posts prove conclusively that you voted me originally due to my role claim.
@DRey: What do you think of Forgotten One? I think he's the most obviously scum in the game. Here I am catching him blatantly lying again as though it will cover his tracks. I would go for a Che Guevara lynch if we approached deadline though, because he's been pretty unhelpful so far and has a few really questionable posts.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
You vote for me in post #87 in response to me claiming self-janitor and all you said was: "Anyone else what to give themselves up as scum?". When pressured, in post #97 you say "your role claim was only part of it" but don't give any other reason for voting me. Finally, almost 60 posts later in post #156 you give an alternate reason for the first time. However, your alternate reasons for voting me involve information that you didn't have until a post in the 120s.
Therefore, your own posts prove conclusively that you voted me originally due to my role claim.
Apparently, there is a different definition of "prove conclusively" that I am unaware of.....
You need to actually read Post 156. It wasn't that you claimed self-Janitor, but the fact that you wanted this information out there in the first place like it gives you some sort of free-pass to act scummy. The Town doesn't "need to know" this about your role. There were 4 or 5 other behavioral points that I also point out, all of which occurred before my vote.
@Tar: I asked you a question at the start of 153 to which I'd still like you to respond.
@DRey: I'm not happy that you had no response to that post either.
How about we reveal our top suspects to hopefully reach a consensus? I'm fine with a lynch of either Kpaca (for previous reasons) or Che (I quite like the case against him).
It's a little early for that. We almost two weeks until deadline. Why the rush?
First off, Townies don't worry about how their claims will come off to others because they know the truth is on their side. Townies worry about whether they can glean any information from other people's claims.
Much like the above, this is just a blanket declaration with no analysis of the actual situation.
Why wouldn't a townie self-janitor recognize that his role sounds incredibly scummy?
Townies ask questions about what the intent of someone's vote might be, they don't give them an answer. This comes across as more of Asenion trying to appear to scumhunt without doing so, and look for an excuse to jump on a wagon.
Right...
So, which wagon was Asenion looking to jump on by asking Cyouni to clarify his vote?
Backtrack? What? And what, exactly, would the alternative townie response have been here then? -"No, I shall continue to believe that hands have 3 fingers!" I mean, come on, you can't be serious.
I'm seeing lots of evidence that indicates F1 is just painting absolutely anything he can find as scummy, while doing zero analysis on it.
Townies take responsibility for their vote. This is a HUGE no-no. If you were Town, you would have no clue as to whether Taredes was telling the truth or whether you were putting your vote in the hand of a mafioso or not. The fact that its Taredes makes it almost certain that you two are scum together.
1) Tar was confirmed as telling the truth about his vote restriction within the first few posts.
2) That would be one of the dumbest scum interactions I have ever seen.
3) And again, the first two sentences are just an empty general statement that isn't considering the events or the potential town motivations at all.
You even know why its wrong, yet you try to rationalize it....
So, let me get this straight. You think Asenion is scum, who was trying to pawn off his vote to make himself not responsible for it, and he actually came out and said, "it removes responsibility from me and weakens tells on me."
I don't even have words. If you think that he is scum, and that this is how he plays, then we should just wait until D2 when he'll announce, "Oh, we killed that townie for this reason..."
Why does the Town "need to know" this? If you are killed and we don't get to know your alignment, you telling us you are Town doesn't help. This doesn't come from a town mindset.
You don't think a townie should announce that they won't reveal on death? Seriously? Walk me through this, because I think a self-janitor is nearly as important to claim immediately as a miller.
Again, you state that you are openly "acting" scummy yet you jump to the conclusion that I must be voting you for your role claim....
Considering the timing of your vote right after his claim, the lack of any explanation from you, and the fact that you hadn't mentioned him once previously -how was that a poor assumption?
So you have no idea why I'm voting for you, but you think I'm scum.... yeah right. Nice fence-sit and subtle push on the DesCoures wagon (who I think is probably Town)
First, he obviously thought he knew why you were voting him (and was completely justified in that assumption), so this point is meaningless.
Secondly, explain how there was any fencesitting here?
Taredes claims his triple-vote, but obviously Asension already knew that.
The one thing I have in your favor is that this mini conspiracy theory of your's is so far out there, that I'm having trouble believing a scum could come up with it. It seems a bit more like the type of monster a nutty townie invents out of shadows.
However, the fact that you are only mentioning it now, way after the fact, makes that point a little weaker, since as scum, you could just be grasping at anything under pressure to substantiate your vote.
More to the point, how is being a self-janitor an "overpowered" role unless you are mafia? If you were Town, you would know that your alignment not being revealed upon death majorly screws the rest of us out of information and is actually a big negative if it were true.
Apparently, there is a different definition of "prove conclusively" that I am unaware of.....
You need to actually read Post 156. It wasn't that you claimed self-Janitor, but the fact that you wanted this information out there in the first place like it gives you some sort of free-pass to act scummy. The Town doesn't "need to know" this about your role. There were 4 or 5 other behavioral points that I also point out, all of which occurred before my vote.
...points which you never mentioned until way, way after your vote.
Anyway, I'm much more willing to support an F1 wagon at this point, though my strongest read is still on DRey. Nis, I still have my eye on, while I'm actually starting to lean town on Che, the more he posts. Asen, Tar, and dC are all still looking good. The rest are
I'm not being intentionally scummy, I've been playing intentionally openly. No filter and no tricks, I've said whatever I pleased. This is considered scummy behavior because my opinions are naturally scummy somehow and I've been lynched because of it before. I've got reasons that being lynched isn't a worst case scenario, but it would still leave the town with no information after Day 1 and that's an awful spot to be. So in the interest of making sure we gain information from our Day 1 lynch, I'm going to be more careful.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Anyway, there's not just one scum left and F1 doesn't look very experienced so if he's indeed scum we will catch him sooner or later, no need to sweat about it.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I think you are a bit off target here. Asenion's posts read as very open and natural to me.
kpaca clearly referenced scum pushing the wagon in the part of this post you neglected to quote. -Why omit that?
It's how he responds to everything as everything.
We're barely a hundred posts into the game, relax.
And you should have most of my current scum reads by now. -The only one I haven't mentioned yet is Che, but that's because I'm still trying to figure out if I think his posts are scummy, or if it's just something about the posting style that is bothering me.
"Changed" isn't the right word, exactly, because I'm just as uncomfortable with his hypothetical proposal now as I was then. The only difference is, now, I have a little more info -namely, how he responded to the pressure. And it's just not worth pursuing.
I think "anti-town" neutral was fairly heavily implied there. -Since when does anyone go out of their way to hunt survivors?
This is not an acceptable second post of the game at this stage.
How did you miss the DRey wagon? -I think that's the largest wagon right now.
Okay.
Awful.
I think he is probably wrong, but nothing seems scummy about the push.
Maybe.
Stronger maybe.
That is not a reason. "You are scummy because you are scummy" doesn't explain anything.
No, it's not okay for you to misrep kpaca's post just because Tar did it first.
Here:
Do you see the bolded? -His post wasn't even close to what you are trying to push here.
"a few scum" =/= "comprised exclusively of town players"
I would still like kpaca to respond to this, however; though, I'm not going to hold my breath on that.
Why would neutral!kpaca be a better candidate versus whoever you see as scum?
You provided no evidence to back up your statement.
Anyone can throw around statements and say they're true - that doesn't make them true.
Seems about right.
More when head is not pounding.
List tags are malformed.
*I just searched for votes, but the colons that everyone voting DRey used threw me off and he wasn't in the last vote count, and I just forgot about it. I see there are actually THREE people on that wagon.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I had my reasons to wait, but here is my reasoning:
Taredes hadn't claimed that he had a triple vote yet, but somehow Asenion already knows this. How? Because they are scumbuddies. Other people picked up on this as well (that Asenion is speaking from inside knowledge), but this is the start of where I felt Asenion was scum.
Pushes the horrible 'lynch kpaca for meta' agenda...
Pushes it again. The last part of that post just seems off...
So we don't lynch people for being a bad townie, but openly declaring that you are acting horribly is not a Townie trait...
First off, Townies don't worry about how their claims will come off to others because they know the truth is on their side. Townies worry about whether they can glean any information from other people's claims.
Townies ask questions about what the intent of someone's vote might be, they don't give them an answer. This comes accross as more of Asenion trying to appear to scumhunt without doing so, and look for an excuse to jump on a wagon.
Has to backtrack because he know he is caught.
Townies take responsibility for their vote. This is a HUGE no-no. If you were Town, you would have no clue as to whether Taredes was telling the truth or whether you were putting your vote in the hand of a mafioso or not. The fact that its Taredes makes it almost certain that you two are scum together.
You even know why its wrong, yet you try to rationalize it....
Why does the Town "need to know" this? If you are killed and we don't get to know your alignment, you telling us you are Town doesn't help. This doesn't come from a town mindset.
Again, you state that you are openly "acting" scummy yet you jump to the conclusion that I must be voting you for your role claim....
Interesting that you say this because at the first hint of someone voting for you, your reaction is to OMGUS....
So you have no idea why I'm voting for you, but you think I'm scum.... yeah right. Nice fence-sit and subtle push on the DesCoures wagon (who I think is probably Town)
Taredes claims his triple-vote, but obviously Asension already knew that.
More to the point, how is being a self-janitor an "overpowered" role unless you are mafia? If you were Town, you would know that your alignment not being revealed upon death majorly screws the rest of us out of information and is actually a big negative if it were true.
Conclusion: Asenion and Taredes are scum
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I've cut out all the arguments except the ones that specifically mention me, because those are the important ones:
A) I was the player who came down most heavily asking Asenion for the reason for the "three fingers" comment (I said that the reasoning would become obvious by the end of the day - yes, of COURSE I was referencing my triple vote). Why would I do that as scum? (And don't even think about "to warn Asenion about his slip" - check the second post, scum have DAYTALK and can warn each other about things outside the thread.)
B) So you think I'm also scum. More on this in just a moment.
Here's the important part. You think that I am scum, because you clearly stated so earlier. You also think that I'm not lying about having a triple vote, because you're talking in terms of Asenion knowing I *have* it, rather than knowing that I would *claim* it.
In other words, you think I am scum with an ability that can potentially end the game on DAY 2 (requires that a town be lynched D1, two kills occur N1, and the Mafia win condition be "control the lynch", none of which are particularly implausible). But you're voting Asenion instead of me. Why is that, exactly?
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Forgotten One voting me in post #87
Taredas revealed his triple vote in post #122
*I say main, because he mentioned it THREE times in his post condemning me.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
@Asenion: When you first mentioned the 3-finger thing, it was only a suspicion that you were talking from inside information. Taredes' claim to actually be a triple-voter just seals it. My vote was a culmination of about 4 or 5 things previous to that. Your behavior since then has just made me more sure of my read.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
To use a MafiaScum expression:
X
Try again, please.
Let me lay out the part you're ignoring. Let's say that I'm scum with two other players, and that a townie is lynched D1, and that two more townies are killed N1 (from, say, the Mafia NK and a 1-shot vig). In that situation, here's what happens D2: nonTar scum #1 votes a player, then nonTarscum #2 votes that player, then I hammer and the game goes to night, rinse and repeat until enough townies are eliminated that the scum control the lynch period. Moreover, scum have daytalk (we know this because it's in the rules post), so they can coordinate this out of thread.
That's the extreme scenario - it's more likely that only one kill occurs N1 and a hypothetical scumteam including me would need to wait to D3 to do this, and said team might wait anyways to guard against vigs/town getting a quicklynch on the triple voter before they can chaingun another townie. Hell, if another scum gets lynched D1 this is a moot point. But if you really think I'm scum, isn't that a big risk to take? Why not try to take down the player who a) you claim to think is scum and b) who has claimed a triple vote?
For that matter, if you actually think I'm scum but are going to vote another player anyways, why the HELL are you attacking the player who has claimed an ability which makes it impossible to know if we lynched town or scum if we lynch him D1?
And now that I think about it: Why the "if" disclaimer at the start of the post? You've made it blatantly clear that you think I'm scum with Asenion and that you don't think I'm lying about my triple vote (or Actor restriction), but now you go and throw in that "if". I'm having trouble seeing a town motivation for that, and there's two really obvious reasons to do that if you're scum - because you want to leave yourself an out, and because you don't really want to draw the ire of a strong townie.
Or, to be more succinct: That "if" is wishy-washy as hell.
You know what? If both Asen and I are town and you're scum, then from your perspective that's not a bug, but rather a feature. You get Asen lynched today, then you can just come right out tomorrow attacking me "for being his scumbuddy.
Hell, you can trot out the same argument that I used today in order to try to convince town that they have to lynch me tomorrow.
So, no. If you are actually town and actually think I'm scum, you're going to try to get me lynched today. Period.
Really now?
Let's take a look at the timeline here:
- Asenion makes his 3-finger comment back in post 23.
- I ask for Asenion's reasons for choosing the number 3 in post 35 ("I'll refrain from comment on most of this until DRey answers. but any particular reason for the number 3? I'd think 5 would be more obvious myself.").
- You unvote kpaca in post 48 without making any comments or questions about Asenion's 23, despite your claim here that you suspected it might indicate inside information.
- You continue not to say anything about Asenion's post 23 in your post 54.
- Cyouni asks Asenion about his 3-finger comment ("Where do you live that people only have three fingers a hand?") in post 58.
- I ask Asenion for an explanation of that 3-finger comment AGAIN in post 66 ("Asenion, why are you ignoring the question both Cyouni and I asked:").
- Asenion responds to the 3-finger question in post 67 ("I really didn't think you two were serious about the # of fingers thing. Hand of Suspicion > Finger of Suspicion and 3x power was the first thing that came to mind. Sure, 5 fingers makes more sense for a hand.").
- Cyouni follows up on his 3-finger question in 58 ("That was more rhetorical than anything else. However, my actual question remains unanswered:"). Note that my questioning was specifically about the number 3, as opposed to Cyouni's. Also note that scum have daytalk and if I was actually scum with Asenion I could just warn him about that comment outside the thread as opposed to drawing attention to it in thread.
- I crumb the existence of a role-based reason for being curious about the 3 in post 69 ("I have my reasons for being serious. They will become obvious by the end of the day.")
- You vote Asenion in post 87 ("Anybody else want to give themselves up as obvscum? "). You STILL haven't said anything about Asen's post 23 at this point.
So, you mean to tell me that you thought Asenion's 3-finger comment indicated some kind of inside information (apparently as soon as you saw it) but didn't question Asenion about it at all despite multiple players doing so AND despite my post 69 making it clear that I was asking about Asen's post 23 due to something about my role AND despite posting twice in the meantime?
For that matter, if you thought that I was scum with Asenion that early, why the hell weren't you showing any suspicion of me? You didn't even interact with me early, let alone question or indicate suspicion of me.
Yeah, no. I'm not buying that bridge. You're scum who got called on his lack of case and fabricated one after the fact.
UnHoS, HoS x3: Forgotten One
See, Asenion, THIS is what happens when you start playing actively and making cases D1.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
X
Try again, please. Check the first vote count, I've already proven that my vote doesn't count if not hammering.
Also: Do you have experience over on MafiaScum? This kind of post looks awfully familiar...
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Again how does this have anything to do with unvoting a FoS or a HoS?
Yes because every time you have given a HoS its been on the hammer
Yes I do
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Excellent! Thanks for claiming scum, we'll deal with you at the earliest opportunity (which is either "now" or "once Forgotten One is dealt with", not yet sure which).
I mean, come on. I may not know MTGS meta that well yet, but unless a huge change in playstyles has come down the pike in the last year or so I know the Scum meta, and by those standards Che's play is classic newbscum. He had a pass so long as I wasn't aware of his Scum experience. No longer. Observe:
In MTGS meta that's null, but Scum meta frowns on early softclaims due to potentially outing power roles. Why, then, does Che not only show any suspicion towards KCC's softclaim proposal but also answer Nis's question on her behalf?
Why does Che feel the need to make this comment after 3 votes in random stage?
Hell, this reads badly for Che no matter what kpaca's alignment is. If kpaca is town, Che's going for townie points. If kpaca's scum, Che is derailing a wagon on a buddy.
Also, note that said post comes immediately after this post of FO's:
Also note that scum have daytalk and how the "reads badly no matter what kpaca's alignment is" I mention about Che above can also apply to this post.
You know, Che attacks Nis heavily later for backtracking. Now, is it just me, or is that "I'm not so sure he is town" backtracking? Hypocrisy, anyone?
And I quote: "Hell, this reads badly for Che no matter what kpaca's alignment is. If kpaca is town, Che's going for townie points. If kpaca's scum, Che is derailing a wagon on a buddy."
Uh, let me get this straight. You're trying to accuse Nis of backpedaling... by backpedaling yourself? That's just rich.
I mean seriously. The words don't lie. You just spent the last 3-4 posts attacking Nis for neutral hunting - now you turn around and claim that your case isn't about the neutral hunting? Yeah, no.
How did I miss this post earlier? Remember that "support wagon without actually voting" stuff Asen and DRey did re: the dC case? Add Che to the list of players who did that.
See underlined parts of the two above posts. Note that Che did not post between making the first post and making the second post.
Self-explanatory, I think.
Also, look at that scum list. All the players Che is suspicious of as of making this post are players who were already under suspicion when he voted. The only plausible exception is Che's vote on Nis, and Cyouni had already voted him at that point. Asenion had already drawn "what are you doing" comments from me
Also, note that Che has so far barned THREE reasons for attacks from my posts (neutral hunting and backpedaling re: Nis, fencesitting re: dC).
Now Che promptly abandons the Nis push (but never actually unvotes Nis, funny that) in order to attack me for... using a HoS as a pseudovote. Despite me explaining this in my first post of the game, no less.
Also, funny that you decide to pull this immediately after I reveal my triple vote. And funny that you claim not to know what a HoS is, then claim to have experience on MS. Are you seriously telling me that you've never read the MS Wiki?
What part of pseudovoting do you not understand? I'm treating my HoS as a vote.
Besides, even if you want to argue that the pseudovote isn't really threatening in the same way as a vote, then what about how it's still threatening in the sense of "if you ever reach L-3 you are at risk of being immediately hammered if I decide to start voting you for real"?
Let me get this straight. You're saying that because I can't actually vote unless hammering... that until it's time to hammer I should simply sit down, shut up, and not indicate where my vote would be if it actually counted, just because said vote doesn't currently count? Instead of, you know, pseudovoting?
X
Sorry, try again.
And now we come full circle.
I commented earlier that I tend to ignore VIs because they'll come out in the wash - i.e, eventually they will say something which clarifies their alignment, no need to give scum an easy target to fake scumhunting on. Che Guavara is an excellent example. I've been ignoring him to give him more time to clarify whether or not he is scum. He just did so.
Look at his posts again. Notice how he's only attacked players who have come under attack from other sources and/or done something blatantly scummy looking. Note the tunnel vision and lack of attention paid outside three or so targets. Note that when Che decides he needs to attack a strong-looking town player he doesn't actually come out and say he thinks that I'm scum - hell, he's still voting Nis despite last saying anything about Nis at least two RL days ago. Moreover, Che has come out and said that he thinks certain players are scum only ONCE during the game (late during his active push on Nis).
Finally, look at the timing of his attack on me. Che only bothers to attack me for using the HoS as a pseudovote after I claim my triple vote. Is that the action of town who suspects another player, or is that the action of scum trying to discredit a strong town power role? For that matter, that's TWICE this game that Che has come to kpaca's defense - and both times he's done so by trying to discredit players attacking kpaca. Chainsaw Defense is unreliable until the player defended flips scum, but still.
Why does this all feel so familiar? Oh right, because it looks really, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7677&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select=8638&user_select2=0&user_select3=0&user_sort=Gohttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7677&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select=8753&user_select2=0&user_select3=0&user_sort=Go (before you ask, those are all isos of Mafiosos from Random Mafia 3 on Scum). It's not exactly the same, no, but my gut reaction is that the mindset is the same.
He's not the only one acting like this, either: remember Forgotten One, who jumped off the kpaca randomwagon in a hurry then brought me into the Asenion case after I attacked kpaca/revealed my triple vote? Isn't it remarkable that FO and Che *both* moved off kpaca when a randomwagon was starting to form, and *both* starting attacking me when and only when I revealed my triple vote and voted kpaca? Note how Che intensified his attack on me when I pseudovoted FO.
I'm not sure that kpaca's scum (there's at least one other strong candidate for being the third scum, and I haven't seen enough to draw any firm conclusions). I am, however, reasonably sure that Forgotten One and Che Guavara are scumbuddies.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I am not a noob and this is my first game here (along with 2 other I am currently in) so the whole "mtgs meta" thing will be irrelevant.
Because some were obviously a joke, and I said "if anyone is serious" ala directed at the whole "kpaca is auto scum" crap.
the bakctrack was the whole "kpaca play good as scum, lets lynch him" and then denying the attempt at hunting neutrals later. But nice misrep
I'm saying you don't have to unvote a FoS or HoS. Its not about voting someone. Please read my posts.
The rest of the stuff was just looking too deep.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
What part of "you claimed to have played on Scum, over on Scum these kinds of posts tend to come from Scum" don't you understand? MTGS meta has nothing to do with that.
Again, kpaca was in no danger of being lynched. Hell, Forgotten One had just unvoted him. Why make this comment then?
While I'm here, I must ask: Killa seven, is that you?
Let me throw your own rhetoric back in your face: Read MY post.
In three posts you raise the possibility that kpaca could be town, therefore we shouldn't lynch him yet. When asked about it (by DRey and Cyouni), you specify that you're not sure that kpaca is town. Why, specifically, the "kpaca could be town" reasoning?
Besides, you carefully ignored your second, more important backpedal: In one post you claim that Nis is scum (or at least scummy) due to neutral hunting, but in your VERY next post you claim that you don't actually care about the neutral hunting (posts 100 and 110, respectively). Which one is it?
You're right, I don't technically *have* to unHoS. I'm doing it anyways, to make it clear that I would be unvoting if I were actually voting. Got a problem with that?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10050634The rest of the stuff was just looking too deep.[/QUOTE]
So, your reaction to the most important part of the case (say, contradicting yourself in consecutive posts, mostly [I'd say only, but I'm not sure about Nis] attacking players who are already being attacked by others, the timing of you deciding to attack me, arguing that people should just ignore my HoS, etc.)... is to dismiss them as "reading too deep"?
Even by MafiaScum VI standards, that's not a town response to a wagon.
---
X
Really now? You think I'm scum... for a rhetorical device... but fail to explain how said device is scummy, instead just trying to discredit it with "stupid"... and claim that you are increasingly convinced I'm scum, but fail to vote me despite me pointing out earlier that if you are town and think I am scum then you want me lynched above any other player today?
Yeah no.
---
Note: Preemptive Declare V/LA (duration currently unknown) on account of a family member currently being in the hospital. I'm not sure that this will affect my access at all (there's other family members handling the "stay at the hospital" part right now), but if I drop off the face of the Earth for a bit that's why.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Explain how that works.
What does this mean?
So, your reaction to the most important part of the case (say, contradicting yourself in consecutive posts, mostly [I'd say only, but I'm not sure about Nis] attacking players who are already being attacked by others, the timing of you deciding to attack me, arguing that people should just ignore my HoS, etc.)... is to dismiss them as "reading too deep"?
Even by MafiaScum VI standards, that's not a town response to a wagon.
---
X
Really now? You think I'm scum... for a rhetorical device... but fail to explain how said device is scummy, instead just trying to discredit it with "stupid"... and claim that you are increasingly convinced I'm scum, but fail to vote me despite me pointing out earlier that if you are town and think I am scum then you want me lynched above any other player today?
Yeah no.
---
Note: Preemptive Declare V/LA (duration currently unknown) on account of a family member currently being in the hospital. I'm not sure that this will affect my access at all (there's other family members handling the "stay at the hospital" part right now), but if I drop off the face of the Earth for a bit that's why.[/QUOTE]
Yeah no.
*insert large red x*
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I never said that I cared Nis was neutral hunting (I think that was the cupcake guy), I cared that he would happily lynch someone who is good as a neutral and then also said I only cared about the backpeddle because that's a scummy trait.
I know kpaca wasn't close to being lynched buy by my standard, only scum would want to randomly lynch someone and I was trying to hunt them down for saying and agreeing with it.
I'm quite a simple poster, I make generally small posts that are straight to the point, and I think getting incredibly deep off that is just grasping at straws trying to find something wrong with my posts when in reality its should just be accepted at face value.
----------------------------
@Taredas
It's not impossible, but the degree to which they've been sniping at each other seems a little over the top for that. Specifically Forgotten One appears to be rather hellbent on killing off Asenion. I'd place it at a low probability, especially after Forgotten One's laughable 'case' on you and Asenion being scumbuddies, and Asenion's unquotable response.
....huh.
This is actually an extremely good point. And Forgotten One's answer is very much insufficient.
@Nis
A survivor is a very different beast from an SK/cult leader/other actively anti-town neutral.
But fine. There are better places to look than you right now anyway.
@AtheistGod
......
...so not only is this no better than a random vote, you choose... the player who, just based on his ability (as long as he proves it later) and the timing of his claim, is probably least likely to be scum at this point.
If this is supposed to be activelurking, it's probably the worst attempt at it I've ever seen.
FoS: AtheistGod
@Asenion
Do me a favour. Don't respond within quotes again. Now that nested quotes is gone, it makes whatever you wrote totally unquotable.
....no. No you're not.
This doesn't fit at all with your claim of being 'overpowered town' balanced by being a self-janitor. In fact, nothing about your actions does.
In those 7 posts I found suspicious points on which I pushed Forgotten One. Why didn't you? And, for that matter, what did you think of my points on how jumpy he was about the kpaca wagon?
I don't like your failure to count the DRey wagon in this post. Which, as you 'realize' later, is actually the current largest wagon, with 3 actual votes on it.
@DRey
You're ignoring me. I don't like that.
And how different is this from how kpaca plays as town?
...Taredas wasn't pseudovoting kpaca any more at the point this post was made. That's blatant buddying with Taredas. And finally, that's a terrible reason to vote someone anyway. Townies can be and are wrong on a regular basis.
Freudian slip there? I think that just did more to tilt my opinion of Asenion towards town than almost anything this entire game.
I didn't like it when Taredas said this about you, and I definitely don't like it now that you're saying it about Forgotten One. There is absolutely no reason not to pressure possible newbie scum on day 1. Mods don't (or at least, should not) purposely give better scum roles to more experienced scum. And, in fact, newbie scum are more likely to slip up and provide links to their scumbuddies. Add this to the fact that this is a mini, where that 'sooner or later' encompasses a rather shorter time frame, and this kind of statement becomes all the more questionable.
For Taredas, it's probably a difference in playstyles across sites - it's fairly unlikely for him to be scum as long as he can prove his ability. You, on the other hand, have no such excuse either way.
@Forgotten One
You're ignoring me as well. I really don't like that, especially given you actually responded to my points the first time round... and then now seem to have dropped any attempt to respond to them. Don't have a proper excuse, hm?
And are you seriously suggesting that Taredas' ability would be 'neutralized' on scum by his inability to vote normally? That's utter bovine faeces.
@kpaca
...now that I look at it, you called Taredas 'probably scum' before. Why is that?
---------------------------
Re: Taredas' Che case
Mmm. I'm not entirely convinced yet - a lot of that case looks like reaching to some extent, such as the bit on backtracking. A number of comments below:
Eh. I don't think that reads half as bad as Forgotten One's post. There's a distinct difference between rubbishing a rubbish wagon and being hyper-aware enough of said wagon to jump off at a mere 3 votes.
...huh. I actually had to look back and check. They do have daytalk.
Also, didn't I make much that same point about Forgotten One? (Which, as I say above, he responded to once and is now ignoring.)
All of this, however, is very true, now that I look at it. I'm not actually sure how I missed Che doing that first bit earlier.
Mmm. Not convinced on the 'after the triple vote reveal', but the HoS is a good point. The last time I looked at MafiaScum was several years ago, but HoS was definitely already around at that point.
The first paragraph is probably reaching a bit at this point in time, without any flips. I could see Forgotten One and Che as scumbuddies, though. Especially given this questionable response:
@Che Guevara
Other than how utterly fake that smiley comes across as, you're the one misrepresenting here. I found what Nis said about kpaca questionable as well - but that's not at all what he said. He neither said 'let's lynch him' nor called him scum in that post.
...that's one of the most blatant handwaves I've ever seen.
...question, then. After looking at a list of Nis' posts, I realize that at no point was Nis ever voting kpaca. The list of people who voted kpaca at that point was: Forgotten One (unvoted questionably), Asenion (RVS voted together with a fake daykill, of all things), and DRey (apparently serious and totally unsubstantiated vote). Out of these three, the only one you had on your scumlist was Asenion. A far cry from trying to 'hunt down' anyone close to that wagon, no?
And looking at your posts, you never actually went after Asenion - you just suddenly had him on a scum list next to me and Nis. This seems disingenuous, at the least.
...one further question, Che. Why was your very first post in this game a '100% serious vote' on DRey?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
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Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
-I see what you mean about the unquotable response. I'll just have to go to a lot more formatting trouble next time to open and close the quote I'm responding to manually.
-You are welcome to judge my skill level on whatever metric you wish. I judge it with my own metric and that was an opinion statement. Also, that was an average. I've only ever lost one scum game and I consider myself an excellent scum. On the other hand, I'm less than 6/10 on town even by my own estimation. Town is hard, there just isn't enough information to go around.
-I reserve the right to say whatever I want about my role and not answer questions about it unless I feel they help the town. If you have a problem with that, get me to L-2 and we will have a new conversation.
-Forgotten One's discussion of kpaca seemed pretty neutral to me and it didn't help that I think the whole kpaca situation is a waste of time for everyone. From what I've seen of kpaca, he will troll the town and run us in a circle regardless of his alignment. (Hence why I started RVS with a semi-serious vote on him. He's just note helpful IMO.) Otherwise, I DID find things scummy in his 7 posts and started a case which I later expanded and Taredas expanded further. Everything Forgotten One has said lately has been scummy, and I think his silence now is likely his scumbuddies telling him to shut up while they try to draw attention away.
-I literally forgot about the DRey wagon because I don't think DRey is scum and figured the people on his wagon would move on eventually on their own. I never took that wagon very seriously. It was my bad, but I make mistakes.
Ok, now onward to read the rest of your post.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Sorry I meant he said "kpaca plays good as a neutral, lets lynch him"
I can't really answer over analysed posts because they are over analysed. Call it whatever you want.
I was questioning. In fact, I questioned a bit until my vote on Nis. I got the most solid read from Nis' posts compared to the others agreeing with the kpaca policy.
I was about to form a case on Asenion until I had to defend the claims from Taredas. I'm getting to it.
There was a post by I would not like to get into it at this point but save it for later. Its the reason I voted him 100% serious. Its only a single post and I must stress that it is very important I save it for later because it will confirm him as scum if my thoughts are right.
There was a post by DRey**
Randomly lynching is stupid period - even if the random lynch hits scum (and the odds are against it, because even if there's a neutral and three scum in a 12-player mini then 2/3 of the players are town), the town is liable to be uninformed D2.
There are plenty of good arguments against random lynching. Why bother mentioning kpaca's alignment so many times?
Wait a minute...
Please explain how "caring that he's neutral hunting" is different from "caring that he would happily lynch someone who's good as a neutral", and how the last two quoted posts fit with the latter instead of the former.
Note to self: If Che is scum then KCC is more likely to be town given the deflection.
1) FYI: Only scum? I wish. (In the linked game - Mafia Invictus on Scum - a player was random lynched D1 mostly on the impetus of a Townie [Fate]. Only two scum out of four were on the wagon, and the hammer was town.)
I've said it once, I'll say it again: Just because someone is playing poorly does not necessarily mean they are Mafia.
2) Why should I believe that you're Town trying to hunt scum rather than, say, Mafia trying to get a Townie lynched knowing that you can explain the attack with "he was doing these scummy things"?
Public service announcement. (That post was useful to me even while I was back on Scum, it's something you might want to take a look at.)
See, I'm trying to figure out *why* you're making your posts. For example: why do you think I should just "accept [your posts] at face value"?
Also, why did you completely drop my comments re: the HoS?
---
Actually... that's not entirely correct. I was giving this some thought myself, and there *is* a way that Asenion's actions make perfectly good sense as town (they're not optimal, no, but if I'm right about what's going on then I've seen worse responses). I'd rather not elaborate at this time.
---
More after I get some sleep.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
How many times have I mentioned it bar the times people have questioned me about it?
Cupcake said Nis was neutral hunting, Nis denied it, and I came in claiming he is backpedaling by questioning "How is that not neutral hunting". I think Backpedaling is scummy, not Neutral hunting. I never once claimed Nis was scum for the neutral hunt.
lol I don't read any outside game links because I don't care for meta. Stated that multiple times.
You don't have to believe anything I say, I'm doing my way of finding scum. It works for me.
Because I post them at face value. I'm not a 13 year old girl trying to be meaningful through a few sentences. But again man, whatever you think, lol.
If you want me to subscribe to your newsletter I will need more than a fortune cookie fortune.
What struck me in your exchange with Che was how he has tried to pass off KCC as the originator of the neutral hunting accusation when in reality it was you. KCC never accused me of neutral hunting.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
What the hell are you talking about? I responded to your question already.
My assumption is that if he's scum, there is something else about his role that he's not telling us that would balance it out (I can think of three ways of doing it just off the top of my head). Otherwise, the setup was broken to begin with. My other assumption is that in this game, up is down, left is right, and whatever we think we know about whether a role is obv-Town or obv-Scum is kinda out the door. The other thing to consider is that if he's lying scum, who knows what his role actually is.
So which is it? Am I being silent or am I saying scummy things? Because its kinda hard to do both....
I have a life on the weekends, so this isn't me being quiet. And my previous arguments against you stand on their own merit. Of course you and Taredes don't agree with them, but that's irrelvant as far as I'm concerned. What's relevant is your counter-attack which consists of voting for me based on nothing.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
You can keep saying this over and over, and I will continue to respond over and over that this is NOT the reason I voted for you. In a vacuum, I don't know what we would do with your roleclaim.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I keep saying it because it's the reason you cited after voting for me? Why do you keep denying your previous words? Do I need to go quote it again?
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
However F1 showed unexpected insights when he noticed such subtleties from Asen and Tar conversation about fingers not in like in a good way, because it seems like inside information. I don't know what to think anymore but considering both of them are the only two pushing this game right now I'm against their wagons.
How about we reveal our top suspects to hopefully reach a consensus? I'm fine with a lynch of either Kpaca (for previous reasons) or Che (I quite like the case against him).
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You can't quote what doesn't exist.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Therefore, your own posts prove conclusively that you voted me originally due to my role claim.
@DRey: What do you think of Forgotten One? I think he's the most obviously scum in the game. Here I am catching him blatantly lying again as though it will cover his tracks. I would go for a Che Guevara lynch if we approached deadline though, because he's been pretty unhelpful so far and has a few really questionable posts.
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Apparently, there is a different definition of "prove conclusively" that I am unaware of.....
You need to actually read Post 156. It wasn't that you claimed self-Janitor, but the fact that you wanted this information out there in the first place like it gives you some sort of free-pass to act scummy. The Town doesn't "need to know" this about your role. There were 4 or 5 other behavioral points that I also point out, all of which occurred before my vote.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
@DRey: I'm not happy that you had no response to that post either.
Iso was a triple vote SK once.
It's a little early for that. We almost two weeks until deadline. Why the rush?
Others were on that kpaca wagon as well, some pushing it harder. -What are your thoughts on those players?
Why not? Why wouldn't a townie be aware of when they had said something that stirred up trouble.
Much like the above, this is just a blanket declaration with no analysis of the actual situation.
Why wouldn't a townie self-janitor recognize that his role sounds incredibly scummy?
Right...
So, which wagon was Asenion looking to jump on by asking Cyouni to clarify his vote?
Backtrack? What? And what, exactly, would the alternative townie response have been here then? -"No, I shall continue to believe that hands have 3 fingers!" I mean, come on, you can't be serious.
I'm seeing lots of evidence that indicates F1 is just painting absolutely anything he can find as scummy, while doing zero analysis on it.
1) Tar was confirmed as telling the truth about his vote restriction within the first few posts.
2) That would be one of the dumbest scum interactions I have ever seen.
3) And again, the first two sentences are just an empty general statement that isn't considering the events or the potential town motivations at all.
So, let me get this straight. You think Asenion is scum, who was trying to pawn off his vote to make himself not responsible for it, and he actually came out and said, "it removes responsibility from me and weakens tells on me."
I don't even have words. If you think that he is scum, and that this is how he plays, then we should just wait until D2 when he'll announce, "Oh, we killed that townie for this reason..."
You don't think a townie should announce that they won't reveal on death? Seriously? Walk me through this, because I think a self-janitor is nearly as important to claim immediately as a miller.
Considering the timing of your vote right after his claim, the lack of any explanation from you, and the fact that you hadn't mentioned him once previously -how was that a poor assumption?
Plus, you even said it was part of the reasoning.
Yes, that is how bait works. You lure scummy reactions out of the scum, and then you pounce. -What other reaction would he have had there?
First, he obviously thought he knew why you were voting him (and was completely justified in that assumption), so this point is meaningless.
Secondly, explain how there was any fencesitting here?
The one thing I have in your favor is that this mini conspiracy theory of your's is so far out there, that I'm having trouble believing a scum could come up with it. It seems a bit more like the type of monster a nutty townie invents out of shadows.
However, the fact that you are only mentioning it now, way after the fact, makes that point a little weaker, since as scum, you could just be grasping at anything under pressure to substantiate your vote.
...points which you never mentioned until way, way after your vote.
Anyway, I'm much more willing to support an F1 wagon at this point, though my strongest read is still on DRey. Nis, I still have my eye on, while I'm actually starting to lean town on Che, the more he posts. Asen, Tar, and dC are all still looking good. The rest are
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