Nis, I don't think you are scum, but continuing to argue this probably won't convince your detractors. I feel like we need some town leadership to step up, because so far the game is barely movin and the town seems kind of scattered.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
But your reasoning as to why kpaca should be the one is that he plays well as a neutral. Tell me how that isn't neutral hunting?
Because I'm not saying, "I think there's a neutral out there guys!" I have no idea if there is a neutral and at this point I don't care if there is one. It's too early to say if a neutral exists so worrying about it now is pointless.
Why are you so intent on painting me as neutral hunting?
Nis, I don't think you are scum, but continuing to argue this probably won't convince your detractors.
I beginning to feel that way. I'm also starting to regret saying anything about kpaca; not because of the attention it's brought down upon me but because I'm feeling some people are being intentionally difficult about it. I'll admit what I thought would be obvious (and slightly humorous) has been lost on some due to meta differences. I think I've explained things as best I can and I'd like to move away from being on defense over a meta misunderstanding.
And now you are being naive Nis, this is not a misunderstanding, this is simply the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen. There's simply no case against you, and your detractors (Che) probably know it(because he's scum :teach:). I also agree with Asen that this game is pretty slow moving and in dire need of direction and prods.
about Kpaca
I've played kpaca with a lot and I think I can read him well because of that, the difference of townKpaca and scumKpaca is subtle but it can be spotted. Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I would like to hear more opinions from AthiestGod and Voxxicus. I also want to know what other reasons ForgottenOne has for voting me if it's not just because I claimed self-janitor. Don't be non-entities guys, please voice opinions even if they are still uncertain at this point.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I guess it's my fault for not being explicit that it was merely a counter to Che's claim that random lynching D1 is automatically "TERRIBLE POLICY." I was trying to show that it might not be terrible depending on context.
No, random lynching D1 is a terrible idea, regardless of context.
Look carefully, people. There's a difference between questioning intended to figure out whether a player is scum and scum slinging accusations to see what sticks, and this is the latter. DesCoures accuses a number of players, but doesn't commit to any one of them as more scummy than others (i.e, he's fencesitting).
Also, notice the rhetoric: "vote is pretty scummy", "seen this pattern before", "are you actually thinking about this game?", "so many scummy individuals". The last is particularly revealing: DesCoures specifically refrains from saying that he thinks certain people are scum, but instead says that they are scummy (i.e, being scummy). Why?
This seems like a standard dC post, especially for this stage of the game.
He tends to be very methodical, and probe in many directions at once before settling on a direction. He really isn't the type to call, "Scum!" and push for a lynch 100 posts into the game.
As for why I didn't explicitly state it was a hypothetical: I thought it would be obvious to anyone who knows kpaca. My mistake for not realizing we had some new players to our meta.
Again, I know kpaca, and was well aware of what your hypothetical was based on. However, I still don't like it.
The fact that we had the same initial reaction to the "random lynch kpaca" comments, and yet you went off in the very different direction of actually proposing it (even hypothetically) makes me think you aren't town.
I was simply making a hypothetical statement that if a game ever reaches the deadline D1 without a clear lynch candidate then lynching kpaca to eliminate the possibility of a neutral!kpaca could be a viable option given kpaca's skill as a neutral. To be even more clear, this hypothetical is purely to show Che that a random lynch D1, if it comes to it, can be made in a way where it is not "TERRIBLE" policy (albeit it's basically a "LESSBAD" policy). My intent was as narrow as that.
Yeah, this still isn't good enough.
"Haha, we should just lynch kpaca to be safe," is fine as a joke.
But, it's very much not fine as an actual idea (hypothetical or not).
Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
Isn't it a little early to be making a call of "active lurking?" Even if you are right, why not wait a bit to draw attention to it so that there is a more established pattern of behavior to look at? -Five early D1 posts is nowhere near enough to analyze for that tell.
Frankly, this game is in a bad spot right now. I'm personally 25% of the posts. 3 of us together make up 50% of the posts. 1 person hasn't even posted since the original RVS vote and 5 more people have posted less than once per day so far.
IMO, the point of a mini is to get to know each other. You don't need meta in a mini because it's small enough to actually have conversations with every player. I don't care what we talk about, but people should start discussion and start getting to know each other's styles. You can talk about your past mafia experience or your personal mafia theory for all I care, just say something.
P.S. @Mod: Please prod AtheistGod. He hasn't posted since the game started.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Whoa. Suspicion =/= thinking somebody is scum. You were the first to bring up neutral hunting which set off an alarm bell to me. I had no intention of trying to hunt a neutral so for you to suggest it made it seem like you were trying to fabricate a case, hence "chum the waters." It got you a tick of a scum point and a note.
Furthermore, it's far too early for anybody to formulate concrete notions about who is scum and who isn't (other than scum themselves). Voting for you now would be nothing than OMGUS at best.
Maybe it's just MafiaScum experience talking*, but I find that, regardless of whether they actually have a firm idea on a player's alignment, town should appear to have concrete reads, should appear to be certain when attacking/questioning another player, and should be willing to vote on looser ground than usual immediately after the random vote stage (no, you probably haven't found scum yet, but the actual scum are more likely to reveal themselves this way and you can move your vote later). Most scum, by contrast, want to stand off to the side and support town attacks without actually committing their vote (and risk getting called out later by an alert town or vote count analysis).
Hmm. I still don't like your rhetoric ("set off an alarm bell", "tick of a scum point"), but just because I don't like the rhetoric doesn't mean it comes from scum On the whole your defense looks town (explanation of your thought process, not resorting to discrediting your attackers), and I'm finally convinced that your attacks could make sense from a town mindset, especially after scanning Intrigue for comparison of rhetoric.
I was in Ataghan. He said there that he was lying about being new, among other things he was lying about.
Yes, yes you were in Ataghan, and obvtown by late D1 to boot. But there's a distinct difference between your posts in Ataghan and here.
In Ataghan you asked a lot of questions, but there was a point to the questions. You would focus on one player slightly more closely while still querying other players. I don't see that focus here. And the difference between the two is that the questions combined with that focus are scumhunting (you're showing who you think is scum but want to double check), but the questions *without* focus are more likely to be scum slinging accusations (scum are either hoping to get town to say something off or that other players will find something is scummy so they can jump on)
In short, town knows what they find scummy beforehand and want to doublecheck, while scum want to figure out what everyone else finds scummy so they can dodge/pile on.
Meta side note: I also went back and did cursory checks on older dC games as town (Hecatea, Cyberspace, MTGS NGE), and he shows the same pattern there.
Then I found Ghost Town, and suddenly desCoures's early questions lose the focus and "I'm questioning a bunch of players, but you're most likely to be scum" that I saw in Ataghan. DesCoures, of course, was scum in that game.
As for the bolded bit, I can see where you're coming from with the first part of it, although I'm not getting the 'occurs at his expense'. However, what about the second part? 'Has everyone even posted yet' looks a heck of a lot like an attempt to direct attention elsewhere.
"Occurs at his expense" - Asenion appeared willing to put himself in a bad position (first D1 wagon) if doing so would drive the game forward.
"Has everyone even posted yet?" - could be distraction, but it also makes sense from the perspective of town frustrated with the pace of the game. That's consistent enough with the rest of his play to make that comment a null tell (not town, since it *could* come from scum, but null).
...I say 'so many scummy individuals' because currently, half this game looks scummy to me, and that's clearly far too many.
As for the rest of your accusation... it's called 'questioning'. Where I kind of want them all to answer my questions before I actually decide which might be actual tells and which are false positives. It's not something unusual on, say, day 1, within the first couple of hundred posts.
See above. Questioning is not exclusively a town trait.
...in fact, a question, Taredas. Do you actually find nothing wrong with DRey's vote at all?
DRey's kpaca vote is bad, but I've been burned by enough Village Idiots (VIs) on Scum that I know all too well that bad does not necessarily mean scummy, especially on D1 and especially given DRey's... unusual... play in Ataghan. I've been figuring that DRey will come out in the wash as he posts more; in the meantime, I have bigger fish to fry.
Nis, I don't think you are scum, but continuing to argue this probably won't convince your detractors. I feel like we need some town leadership to step up, because so far the game is barely movin and the town seems kind of scattered.
I actually think ForgottenOne is scum at this point, but I really like your point on DesCoures. Your analysis of his fencesitting is spot on, and I didn't see it at all the first time. Well crafted post by him IMO. Keep talking and I might switch votes.
Asen, are you *trying* to make me think you're buddying scum? You're barning but not actually voting or furthering the case yourself. Moreover, "and the town seems kind of scattered"... would you refer to "the town" if you are yourself town?
No, random lynching D1 is a terrible idea, regardless of context.
I'll second the question of, "give him a pass for what, exactly?"
This seems like a standard dC post, especially for this stage of the game.
He tends to be very methodical, and probe in many directions at once before settling on a direction. He really isn't the type to call, "Scum!" and push for a lynch 100 posts into the game.
Again, I know kpaca, and was well aware of what your hypothetical was based on. However, I still don't like it.
The fact that we had the same initial reaction to the "random lynch kpaca" comments, and yet you went off in the very different direction of actually proposing it (even hypothetically) makes me think you aren't town.
Yeah, this still isn't good enough.
"Haha, we should just lynch kpaca to be safe," is fine as a joke.
But, it's very much not fine as an actual idea (hypothetical or not).
Isn't it a little early to be making a call of "active lurking?" Even if you are right, why not wait a bit to draw attention to it so that there is a more established pattern of behavior to look at? -Five early D1 posts is nowhere near enough to analyze for that tell.
KCC: Who do you think is scum, and why? Use examples, please.
Who do you think is scum, and why? Use examples, please.
Nis, for the reasons stated.
Beyond that, you can have one or the other.
If you want some quick gut reads, I can do that, but there isn't going to be much backing them.
If you want evidence, I can do that as well, but you'll need to wait a bit.
I often refer to "the town" and "the scum" regardless of my alignment. I honestly don't think of myself in terms of town and scum usually. I try to keep a neutral mindset while working towards whatever my current victory condition is. It serves me really well as scum, although less well as town. I'm just frustrated at the low activity here. I've tried to start multiple discussions, I've tried to get a wagon started on myself, I've sort-of tried to get a wagon started on others, I've tried to discuss gameplay experience; no one is responding to anything.
And for the record, I have no cares to give about people voting for me. It's likely that I can convince them not to lynch me if I want to or my claim would probably save me failing all else.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Nis, I don't think you are scum, but continuing to argue this probably won't convince your detractors. I feel like we need some town leadership to step up, because so far the game is barely movin and the town seems kind of scattered.
Why are you so intent on painting me as neutral hunting?
I think you are lying and created some flimsy reasoning to lynch a good player that could be town. Its not about the neutral hunting its that you are backpedaling hard.
Oh I'm holding you accountable, WoLG. Just because you vigged two townies and got yourself lynched, I became gay, contracted an STD, and then became a ****.
1) It was a random vote, and we were no longer in RVS.
2) People were talking about lynching kpaca "just cuz" and I wanted no part of that.
3) Why are you so hyper-sensitive about my removing a random vote?
Anybody else want to make a mountain out of this molehill?
Re: 2 - did you seriously think there was any danger of that going through at all of 3 votes?
Re: 3 - because I have seen this pattern before. Specifically, in Hamlet Mafia. Where I, as Ophelia, picked up on this exact same tell in Wrath_of_DoG, as Polonius.
I'm not convinced that 'molehill' of yours isn't a nonbasic land under a Blood Moon.
1) I love that you think I'm scum at this point for the whole 4 sentences I've posted so far....
2) Anybody else see the seeds of distancing between Asenion and decCoures?
And now you are being naive Nis, this is not a misunderstanding, this is simply the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen. There's simply no case against you, and your detractors (Che) probably know it(because he's scum :teach:). I also agree with Asen that this game is pretty slow moving and in dire need of direction and prods.
about Kpaca
I've played kpaca with a lot and I think I can read him well because of that, the difference of townKpaca and scumKpaca is subtle but it can be spotted. Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
.....at the point you voted him he made all of 2 posts, each consisting of all of two words. Of those two, the first came after a fake daykill from Asenion. Are you seriously suggesting that you decided he was obvscum kpaca from all of those two posts?
Yes, yes you were in Ataghan, and obvtown by late D1 to boot. But there's a distinct difference between your posts in Ataghan and here.
In Ataghan you asked a lot of questions, but there was a point to the questions. You would focus on one player slightly more closely while still querying other players. I don't see that focus here. And the difference between the two is that the questions combined with that focus are scumhunting (you're showing who you think is scum but want to double check), but the questions *without* focus are more likely to be scum slinging accusations (scum are either hoping to get town to say something off or that other players will find something is scummy so they can jump on)
...Ataghan was a large game, and at the point I made my first post in that game there were almost as many posts as this game has in its totality. It's a bit easier to decide on a particular player to pursue when there's been a bit more content.
And you're seriously going to tell me you've never seen town ask leading questions?
In short, town knows what they find scummy beforehand and want to doublecheck, while scum want to figure out what everyone else finds scummy so they can dodge/pile on.
Meta side note: I also went back and did cursory checks on older dC games as town (Hecatea, Cyberspace, MTGS NGE), and he shows the same pattern there.
Then I found Ghost Town, and suddenly desCoures's early questions lose the focus and "I'm questioning a bunch of players, but you're most likely to be scum" that I saw in Ataghan. DesCoures, of course, was scum in that game.
Feh. Meta.
Furthermore, cherrypicked meta. The scientific method scoffs at your 'finding a pattern' from one scum game - a game, especially, where I was specifically playing up the 'worse than vanilla' angle.
"Occurs at his expense" - Asenion appeared willing to put himself in a bad position (first D1 wagon) if doing so would drive the game forward.
"Has everyone even posted yet?" - could be distraction, but it also makes sense from the perspective of town frustrated with the pace of the game. That's consistent enough with the rest of his play to make that comment a null tell (not town, since it *could* come from scum, but null).
Not good enough. How did he 'appear willing' to do so at that point?
DRey's kpaca vote is bad, but I've been burned by enough Village Idiots (VIs) on Scum that I know all too well that bad does not necessarily mean scummy, especially on D1 and especially given DRey's... unusual... play in Ataghan. I've been figuring that DRey will come out in the wash as he posts more; in the meantime, I have bigger fish to fry.
Fair enough on the village idiots point. However, why do you have a problem with at least questioning him?
Asen, are you *trying* to make me think you're buddying scum? You're barning but not actually voting or furthering the case yourself. Moreover, "and the town seems kind of scattered"... would you refer to "the town" if you are yourself town?
This is your strongest reaction after that horribly scummy barn post?
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As suspicious as he's looking, though, I am in agreement with Asenion on the lack of posting. When Voxxicus gets back, I want to hear more from him too - including why he thinks Asenion is town.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I honestly don't think of myself in terms of town and scum usually. I try to keep a neutral mindset while working towards whatever my current victory condition is. It serves me really well as scum, although less well as town.
Are you admitting to using a tactic now that serves you well as scum but not as town? That seems... untown.
You said kpaca plays well as a neutral and that is why he should be random lynched if we have no option today. Again, explain to me how this isn't neutral hunting?
This is you expressing worry for the success of a neutral through the skills of kpaca.
You said kpaca plays well as a neutral and that is why he should be random lynched if we have no option today. Again, explain to me how this isn't neutral hunting?
This is you expressing worry for the success of a neutral through the skills of kpaca.
I'll explain one last time. I merely proposed a hypothetical counter to your claim of random lynching D1 to be terrible policy to show a way to make random D1 lynching less bad. As I've already stated a few times, this was not a serious proposal. I am fine if you want to take KCC's side that my hypothetical is still a terrible idea; that I can understand even if I don't agree with it. Continuing to paint me as neutral hunting, however, is deliberately ignoring everything I said so things fit with a worldview you're trying to artificially construct.
Do I worry about a neutral kpaca? Certainly, but do I have any evidence that kpaca is a neutral or am I playing as though he is? Absolutely not.
I'll explain one last time. I merely proposed a hypothetical counter to your claim of random lynching D1 to be terrible policy to show a way to make random D1 lynching less bad. As I've already stated a few times, this was not a serious proposal. I am fine if you want to take KCC's side that my hypothetical is still a terrible idea; that I can understand even if I don't agree with it. Continuing to paint me as neutral hunting, however, is deliberately ignoring everything I said so things fit with a worldview you're trying to artificially construct.
Do I worry about a neutral kpaca? Certainly, but do I have any evidence that kpaca is a neutral or am I playing as though he is? Absolutely not.
Again, I couldn't care less if you were neutral hunting, I care that you are backpedaling and giving flimsy reasoning. You Asenion and desCoures are my current early game scum team read.
@desCoures:
Good for you for catching scum in Hamlet, but do you really think that this is the same thing? Re-read Hamlet, then re-read this and the difference should be obvious.
Even if this was the exact same thing (which it really isn't), how would you explain that such behavior is always scummy? WIFOM much?
@KCC people were asking for my reasons, so I gave them, but you are correct the case would be stronger if I had waited more, I haven't thought about that.
@Des yes, Kpaca is scum.
I quite like Tar's case. Add Des to my list of people I think is scum. I'm fine with a Kpaca, Che or Des lynch toDay.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
kpaca not scumhunting = kpaca is scum is an interesting theory. I've never seen him so quiet in a game, but I'll have to grant that my experience playng against/with kpaca is from a while ago. Does anyone have any recent experience where quiet kpaca was scum (or Town for that matter)?
You know what? Screw it. I'd still rather lynch desCoures, but enough is enough. At least he's posting something resembling content.
You? You haven't posted a single piece of content this game. AT ALL. I'm used to nailing players for Information Instead of Analysis (IIoA)... but you're not even providing the information. Moreover, my biggest mental argument against dealing with you now (lack of information from lynch if you flip town... and that's an increasingly large if) doesn't really apply considering that the wagon against Nis is specifically about his "lynch kpaca at deadline" comments.
If you're town, now would be an excellent time to start caring about this game. But I'm increasingly sure you're not town and that DRey has you caught to rights.
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Now, here's the fun part. I've been holding back the flip side of my vote restriction in order to not mess with early vote analysis. But the rest of this town has been so ****ing passive (and yes, I mean "rest of this town", there's no way that this game has 11 scum) that there's really no point.
The flip side of my vote counting for nothing when I'm not hammering? When I hammer, my vote counts triple. (Needless to say, I'm not going to look kindly on any L-1 votes today.)
HoS x3: kpaca
Kpaca is now functionally at L-3.
(I'll reply to dC's post later tonight. In other news, AtheistGod, I just saw you in this thread. POST PLEASE.)
Interesting, so I'm not the only overpowered person in the game. Taredas, if you can prove your role when we decide who to lynch toDay, I will consider you 98% town. (It would be nearly impossible to balance a scum triple voter in a Mini, only reason I leave 98% on there is because this is a Xyre game and he COULD make that work.)
I will try and contribute more. I'm confident enough in my vote, but ForgottenOne hasn't posted that much. I'm not good at reading kpaca, but I agree that he isn't bothering to contribute at all and I won't oppose his lynch for active lurking.
I feel like DRey is probably town, and I also like Nis and Taredas for town.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Oh believe me, I'm contributing. But if people are going to build a wagon on me based on nothing (I mean really, this wagon started on the theory we should lynch me just because we have to lynch somebody so it might as well be kpaca) and then a few scum are gonna run with it and everyone else jst wants to watch.....well **** I wanna watch it all happen to.
Its an incredibly fascinating display of complete crap town play.
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Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
And now you are being naive Nis, this is not a misunderstanding, this is simply the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen. There's simply no case against you, and your detractors (Che) probably know it(because he's scum :teach:). I also agree with Asen that this game is pretty slow moving and in dire need of direction and prods.
about Kpaca
I've played kpaca with a lot and I think I can read him well because of that, the difference of townKpaca and scumKpaca is subtle but it can be spotted. Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
As for this case on me, lol. That is my response.
Drey has not played with me a lot, has zero clout at reading me, rarely understands my methods (as he openly states in several post games), and completely misrepresents my scum game, which is hilarious since my most noted scum win happened with drey on the team (granted he was lynched day one or shot night one or something). Also my posts have a lot of purpose, where is the proof I'm not scumhunting, and the phrase "and it shows" is something he threw in so he didnt actually have to show how it shows.
This is contrived and a farce.
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@Mod Hate to do this, but V:LA 2 more days. Things ended up being more serious than expected, and I won't be able to commit to posting until weekend. Spending all free time during week at hospital. If I don't post by Sunday, please replace me.
.....at the point you voted him he made all of 2 posts, each consisting of all of two words. Of those two, the first came after a fake daykill from Asenion. Are you seriously suggesting that you decided he was obvscum kpaca from all of those two posts?
Yeah, looking back, I now see that my description of "only five posts" was actually being generous. And, in fact, DRey made a call of "active lurking" after just 4 words in RVS.
Unvote; Vote: DRey -just... no.
As for Nis, I actually like the way he is handling his pressure and responding here. I still don't like his "hypothetical" at all, and will be keeping a very close eye on him, but I'm happy to move past that issue.
That's definitely twisting what I said in the worst possible way, in addition to continuing to assume I'm neutral hunting.
I find it questionable how you apparently took the trouble to look at Redux 1 to find there was a neutral, but didn't bother reading it enough to realize that neutral was a survivor.
@desCoures:
Good for you for catching scum in Hamlet, but do you really think that this is the same thing? Re-read Hamlet, then re-read this and the difference should be obvious.
Even if this was the exact same thing (which it really isn't), how would you explain that such behavior is always scummy? WIFOM much?
No, the initial unvote is almost exactly the same thing. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to be so jumpy at all of 3 votes on the wagon - well, now there is, what with Taredas' ability, but definitely not at the time. He wasn't going to be lynched any time soon, and while there were no good reasons to think him scum, he certainly wasn't obvtown either. This behaviour, then, is very reminiscent of someone who's on a town wagon, doesn't want to be, and bailed way too fast to be natural. At this point in the game, the only people who would know kpaca to be town would be - of course - scum.
Therefore I questioned you on it. Admittedly, your response is far better than what WoD's was in Hamlet, but that's not saying much given his response there was so plastic it was non-biodegradable.
Self-consciousness much? You responded to literally the most ignorable part of that post to annoyed or indignant town, and replied in a self-defensive tone, to boot.
@KCC people were asking for my reasons, so I gave them, but you are correct the case would be stronger if I had waited more, I haven't thought about that.
@Des yes, Kpaca is scum.
....really. That's all you have to say. You decided he was scum from 2 posts, and 4 words.
I quite like Tar's case. Add Des to my list of people I think is scum. I'm fine with a Kpaca, Che or Des lynch toDay.
Oh, that's just laughable. Taredas made his case on me here. You posted quite some time after that, responding to me to boot, here. Only now do you say 'Tar's case is good, I want to lynch dC'.
What's changed? Why, obviously because Taredas is willing to give you a free pass and that I obviously now think you're scum.
You're full of it.
Vote: DRey
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kpaca is almost certainly town - there are too many attacks on him from too many questionable quarters for that to not be the case.
Something is up with Forgotten One and Asenion. I seriously doubt they're both scum, but I'm pretty certain at least one of them is.
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Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Interesting, so I'm not the only overpowered person in the game. Taredas, if you can prove your role when we decide who to lynch toDay, I will consider you 98% town. (It would be nearly impossible to balance a scum triple voter in a Mini, only reason I leave 98% on there is because this is a Xyre game and he COULD make that work.)
I will try and contribute more. I'm confident enough in my vote, but ForgottenOne hasn't posted that much. I'm not good at reading kpaca, but I agree that he isn't bothering to contribute at all and I won't oppose his lynch for active lurking.
I feel like DRey is probably town, and I also like Nis and Taredas for town.
You complain about nobody leading the town... but when somebody tries to actually lead the town, all you do is passively support the case while keeping your vote well away from things. And you do this TWICE, the second time after the player trying to spark the town leads by example by abandoning his preferred case... but barn my case each time with minimal further explanation.
Moreover, while you have a case up on FO, you're doing almost nothing to push it forward!
That's it. Either you're not town, or you're playing so antitown that it makes no difference.
But if people are going to build a wagon on me based on nothing (I mean really, this wagon started on the theory we should lynch me just because we have to lynch somebody so it might as well be kpaca) and then a few scum are gonna run with it and everyone else jst wants to watch.....well **** I wanna watch it all happen to.
To the underlined: How so? By my read the "wagon" (if you call two players a wagon - yes, I have my triple vote, but still) started because players perceived that you weren't posting actual content, just fluff. The "we should lynch someone, might as well be kpaca" comments led to Nis's wagon, not yours.
Its an incredibly fascinating display of complete crap town play.
Wait... what, specifically, are you calling "complete crap town play", and why specifically crap TOWN play? Do you know the alignment of the players voting you?
Drey has not played with me a lot, has zero clout at reading me, rarely understands my methods (as he openly states in several post games), and completely misrepresents my scum game.
No, the initial unvote is almost exactly the same thing. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to be so jumpy at all of 3 votes on the wagon - well, now there is, what with Taredas' ability, but definitely not at the time. He wasn't going to be lynched any time soon, and while there were no good reasons to think him scum, he certainly wasn't obvtown either. This behaviour, then, is very reminiscent of someone who's on a town wagon, doesn't want to be, and bailed way too fast to be natural. At this point in the game, the only people who would know kpaca to be town would be - of course - scum.
Therefore I questioned you on it. Admittedly, your response is far better than what WoD's was in Hamlet, but that's not saying much given his response there was so plastic it was non-biodegradable.
Self-consciousness much? You responded to literally the most ignorable part of that post to annoyed or indignant town, and replied in a self-defensive tone, to boot.
FoS: Forgotten One
Huh. There's the dC I remember from lurking Ataghan. Maybe dC is, in fact, town, and I just jumped the gun and didn't give dC enough time to do anything with his questions.
Beyond that, you can have one or the other.
If you want some quick gut reads, I can do that, but there isn't going to be much backing them.
If you want evidence, I can do that as well, but you'll need to wait a bit.
Gut reads (plus whatever you have to back them), please. You've been off on the side of the game since the end of random stage, that's not a town place to stand.
And those were the reasons for your vote? The vote you placed in post 48?
Yeah, looking back, I now see that my description of "only five posts" was actually being generous. And, in fact, DRey made a call of "active lurking" after just 4 words in RVS.
Unvote; Vote: DRey -just... no.
As for Nis, I actually like the way he is handling his pressure and responding here. I still don't like his "hypothetical" at all, and will be keeping a very close eye on him, but I'm happy to move past that issue.
What caused your view on Nis to change now as opposed to earlier?
You complain about nobody leading the town... but when somebody tries to actually lead the town, all you do is passively support the case while keeping your vote well away from things. And you do this TWICE, the second time after the player trying to spark the town leads by example by abandoning his preferred case... but barn my case each time with minimal further explanation.
Moreover, while you have a case up on FO, you're doing almost nothing to push it forward!
That's it. Either you're not town, or you're playing so antitown that it makes no difference.
UnHoS, HoS x3: Asenion
FoS: kpaca
Have I said that I like you? I think I have. I didn't barn your case this time. I have no read on kpaca and have no intention of voting him. I can tell that you are trying to lead and I would like to support you, just not in this lynch without better evidence. There's no info there. I liked the Des case more, because even though it was mostly from 1-2 posts, it was a really strong point.
You are welcome to try and lynch me if you desire. I am now effectively at L-3 right?
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
...Ataghan was a large game, and at the point I made my first post in that game there were almost as many posts as this game has in its totality. It's a bit easier to decide on a particular player to pursue when there's been a bit more content.
And you're seriously going to tell me you've never seen town ask leading questions?
Fair point.
And of course I've seen town ask leading questions. Hell, I've made them in *this game*. But I've also seen them from scum, and I hadn't seen any of *your* comments on the game - just questions.
Furthermore, cherrypicked meta. The scientific method scoffs at your 'finding a pattern' from one scum game - a game, especially, where I was specifically playing up the 'worse than vanilla' angle.
I had enough trouble tracking down Ghost Town - AFAICT, it's your most recent game as Mafia. Either MTGS search just doesn't handle like Scum's does or it leaves much to be desired IMO.
If you've got other games you consider more representative of you as Mafia, by all means link to them. Meta's not the be-all and end-all, but it's a useful tool in a scumhunting toolkit.
So it's a null tell. Who was the one trying to paint me as scum with it again?
Posting your own opinions on other players drives scumhunting and is thus pro-town. Just asking questions without adding comments doesn't let other players get a read on you, and as such it's one of the methods scum sometimes use to appear to scumhunt without actually doing so.
Fair enough on the village idiots point. However, why do you have a problem with at least questioning him?
DRey's kpaca vote was the sort of thing I'm used to seeing from town VIs on MafiaScum, especially in late random stage and immediately thereafter. As I said, DRey's vote was bad, but in this context bad =/= scummy.
This is your strongest reaction after that horribly scummy barn post?
That was a "I still think you're town despite this post, so sit down, shape up, and stop acting anti-town" reaction, not a "you're scum because of this post". Here's a Scum example of the same. (Mind you, the player in question turned out to be scum, so...). You've seen the next step in the progression ("either you're scum or you're acting so antitown I don't care"), because I've just pulled it on both kpaca and Asenion.
Have I said that I like you? I think I have. I didn't barn your case this time. I have no read on kpaca and have no intention of voting him. I can tell that you are trying to lead and I would like to support you, just not in this lynch without better evidence. There's no info there. I liked the Des case more, because even though it was mostly from 1-2 posts, it was a really strong point.
You are welcome to try and lynch me if you desire. I am now effectively at L-3 right?
Interesting, so I'm not the only overpowered person in the game. Taredas, if you can prove your role when we decide who to lynch toDay, I will consider you 98% town. (It would be nearly impossible to balance a scum triple voter in a Mini, only reason I leave 98% on there is because this is a Xyre game and he COULD make that work.)
I will try and contribute more. I'm confident enough in my vote, but ForgottenOne hasn't posted that much. I'm not good at reading kpaca, but I agree that he isn't bothering to contribute at all and I won't oppose his lynch for active lurking.
I feel like DRey is probably town, and I also like Nis and Taredas for town.
Please explain how the bolded in the second post *isn't* tacitly supporting the kpaca wagon, because I'm not seeing it.
I find it questionable how you apparently took the trouble to look at Redux 1 to find there was a neutral, but didn't bother reading it enough to realize that neutral was a survivor.
The criteria was a neutral in a mini. Now you're moving the goalposts. Of course this is all just a distracting rabbit hole. I've explained myself enough times.
No opposition =/= support. I appreciate you moving the game forward Tar, but I don't agree with the current wagon. (But I'm not really against it either. Kind of indifferent toward kpaca right now.)
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Hand of Suspicion is a mafiascum term that isn't really used here as much. It generally means a stronger Finger of Suspicion. Taredas is using it as his vote proxy because he can't vote by normal methods.
What is your experience level Che Guevara? Roughly how many games have you played and how strong of a player do you consider yourself? For example I've played ~25 games probably and I would say I'm overall like a 6/10 mafia player skill level.
@Taredas: Btw, I do see how a lot of my actions seem somewhat anti-town. They DO all have a purpose though. I don't actually want to be lynched Day 1 because as a self-janitor that would screw us out of our Day 1 wagon/flip information. After that it shouldn't be as big of deal and I have no problem with dying as long as it's not by Night Kill.
I'm a little bit afraid to try and lead the town because most of my reads so far are really meh. I would push more on ForgottenOne, but he only has 7 posts and basically no content in any of them. 6/7 of his posts are about kpaca, but don't actually offer an opinion one way or the other. The 7th post is him voting me, but he didn't post reasons for why he voted me and refused to tell me why he was voting me when I asked him. The only answer I got was that my self-janitor status was part of the reason, but "not the whole reason." This indecisiveness, lack of commitment, and attacking of the obvious low hanging fruit is enough for me to believe he is scum, but not a lot to build a case on. He's my only strong scum read right now and there is no point in build a case for "townieness" this early in the game. (And arguably never since buddying is inherently a scummy action.)
tl;dr: I'm acting scummy for role related reasons but I should probably stop now. Forgotten One is scum because he has no relevant opinions, he voted me simply because of a low hanging fruit role-claim, and he refuses to explain his mindset or decisions.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
EBWODP: We are going to need more than that AthiestGod. I'm glad you decided to join us in the game finally, but that's a broad statement with nothing to back it up.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Well I was going to unvote as soon as you posted something. What you did post, however, made me change my mind. I'm comfortable keeping my vote on you.
There are now 4 wagons to respond to. DRey wants kpaca lynched on meta. Taredas wants me lynched for acting scummy. Nis wants AthiestGod lynched for voting Taredas without reason. I want ForgottenOne lynched for a bad vote and not explaining himself or rooducing content.
Everyone else should have an opinion on at least 1-2 of these wagons.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
There are now 4 wagons to respond to. DRey wants kpaca lynched on meta. Taredas wants me lynched for acting scummy. Nis wants AthiestGod lynched for voting Taredas without reason. I want ForgottenOne lynched for a bad vote and not explaining himself or rooducing content.
Everyone else should have an opinion on at least 1-2 of these wagons.
You forgot one. I want you lynched. There is nothing "bad" about my vote at all. The only thing that is "bad" is your scummy play.
There are now 4 wagons to respond to. DRey wants kpaca lynched on meta. Taredas wants me lynched for acting scummy. Nis wants AthiestGod lynched for voting Taredas without reason. I want ForgottenOne lynched for a bad vote and not explaining himself or rooducing content.
Everyone else should have an opinion on at least 1-2 of these wagons.
I want drey lynched. What game are you reading?
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Your role claim was only part of it, but nice OMGUS...
Forgotten One has still not posted a reason for voting me.
The saddest part is that there is AMPLE ammunition to use against me. I've said and done whatever I felt like this game with no filter and it shows. There are plenty of my posts in which you could say I was caught scum. But to ignore all of that, not respond to the game situations at all, and vote only in response to a partial role claim of a traditionally scum role, is just anti-town behavior. 0 effort applied. 0 analysis done. Extravagant statements like "obvscum" meant to create reactions. No explanation of mindset. I think Forgotten One is the clearest candidate for scum in the game.
@kpaca: Sorry, didn't consider that. Btw, I don't think DRey is scum this game from what I've seen so far. What are your reasons for voting him?
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
The saddest part is that there is AMPLE ammunition to use against me. I've said and done whatever I felt like this game with no filter and it shows. There are plenty of my posts in which you could say I was caught scum. But to ignore all of that, not respond to the game situations at all, and vote only in response to a partial role claim of a traditionally scum role, is just anti-town behavior. 0 effort applied. 0 analysis done. Extravagant statements like "obvscum" meant to create reactions. No explanation of mindset. I think Forgotten One is the clearest candidate for scum in the game.
So you think I'm scum because I voted for you for being obvscum even when you admit to behaving like obvscum.... yeah that sounds like a Town mindset.
Oh believe me, I'm contributing. But if people are going to build a wagon on me based on nothing (I mean really, this wagon started on the theory we should lynch me just because we have to lynch somebody so it might as well be kpaca) and then a few scum are gonna run with it and everyone else jst wants to watch.....well **** I wanna watch it all happen to.
Its an incredibly fascinating display of complete crap town play.
Your wagon didn't start because of the reason you provided, in fact it almost died because of it. It's also fascinating how you know your wagon is comprised exclusively of town players, good to know.
Drey has not played with me a lot, has zero clout at reading me, rarely understands my methods (as he openly states in several post games), and completely misrepresents my scum game, which is hilarious since my most noted scum win happened with drey on the team (granted he was lynched day one or shot night one or something). Also my posts have a lot of purpose, where is the proof I'm not scumhunting, and the phrase "and it shows" is something he threw in so he didnt actually have to show how it shows.
This is contrived and a farce.
I've played with you in Clue, Seasons, WOW and Enders(maybe even more I don't remember). I've also read some games with you, how that's not many games? Also I'm talking about your scumgame because I have an unique perspective from having played with you before, I'm not "misreping" it and I can prove because I read the Seasons Mafia QT, where you keep Pale mage alive just for him to do the work while you actively lurked and handweaved your attackers until the bitter end.
What's most damming however is that you still haven't provided any reasons for prompting people to vote me yet. You just answered this case, but when you first said "Why are we letting drey come to a pass?" I didn't even had posted that yet. So what were the reasons I was being scummy back there?
No opposition =/= support. I appreciate you moving the game forward Tar, but I don't agree with the current wagon. (But I'm not really against it either. Kind of indifferent toward kpaca right now.)
You are being dense, haven't you previously said Tar had your vote? Why being so bullheaded now? If you are really indifferent towards Kpaca while thinking the game is stalled just vote him as two of your townreads are doing (me and Tar).
tl;dr: I'm acting scummy for role related reasons but I should probably stop now. Forgotten One is scum because he has no relevant opinions, he voted me simply because of a low hanging fruit role-claim, and he refuses to explain his mindset or decisions.
This is pretty bad. You claimed to be a self-janitor but self-janitors have no reason to be scummy on purpose (in fact I don't see any role that has, besides jester). I know you lie as town, but I'm not too fond of liars.
Where's that description of why you voted for me? I'm still waiting on it and you are still stalling.
/barn
@F1 You really are slowrolling this or what? You don't have the option of not providing this info, please do in the next post.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Because I'm not saying, "I think there's a neutral out there guys!" I have no idea if there is a neutral and at this point I don't care if there is one. It's too early to say if a neutral exists so worrying about it now is pointless.
Why are you so intent on painting me as neutral hunting?
I beginning to feel that way. I'm also starting to regret saying anything about kpaca; not because of the attention it's brought down upon me but because I'm feeling some people are being intentionally difficult about it. I'll admit what I thought would be obvious (and slightly humorous) has been lost on some due to meta differences. I think I've explained things as best I can and I'd like to move away from being on defense over a meta misunderstanding.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
about Kpaca
I've played kpaca with a lot and I think I can read him well because of that, the difference of townKpaca and scumKpaca is subtle but it can be spotted. Things that Kpaca do independently of alignment: be a jerk, one-liners, uncooperative, claim powers he doesn't have, mix stuff up. What makes me sure this is scumKpaca is the intention of all this stuff, when he's town he has a direction, he's trying to discover stuff, he tries to lead, push and scumhunt (in his bizarre ways). When he's scum he's simply fine with letting other guys do the work for him, his attacks and posts are meaningless and don't have any investigative purpose.
If you guys reread his posts you will notice they have zero purpose, he's clearly happy with not doing any scumhunt, and it shows.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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No, random lynching D1 is a terrible idea, regardless of context.
I'll second the question of, "give him a pass for what, exactly?"
This seems like a standard dC post, especially for this stage of the game.
He tends to be very methodical, and probe in many directions at once before settling on a direction. He really isn't the type to call, "Scum!" and push for a lynch 100 posts into the game.
Again, I know kpaca, and was well aware of what your hypothetical was based on. However, I still don't like it.
The fact that we had the same initial reaction to the "random lynch kpaca" comments, and yet you went off in the very different direction of actually proposing it (even hypothetically) makes me think you aren't town.
Yeah, this still isn't good enough.
"Haha, we should just lynch kpaca to be safe," is fine as a joke.
But, it's very much not fine as an actual idea (hypothetical or not).
Isn't it a little early to be making a call of "active lurking?" Even if you are right, why not wait a bit to draw attention to it so that there is a more established pattern of behavior to look at? -Five early D1 posts is nowhere near enough to analyze for that tell.
IMO, the point of a mini is to get to know each other. You don't need meta in a mini because it's small enough to actually have conversations with every player. I don't care what we talk about, but people should start discussion and start getting to know each other's styles. You can talk about your past mafia experience or your personal mafia theory for all I care, just say something.
P.S.
@Mod: Please prod AtheistGod. He hasn't posted since the game started.
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Maybe it's just MafiaScum experience talking*, but I find that, regardless of whether they actually have a firm idea on a player's alignment, town should appear to have concrete reads, should appear to be certain when attacking/questioning another player, and should be willing to vote on looser ground than usual immediately after the random vote stage (no, you probably haven't found scum yet, but the actual scum are more likely to reveal themselves this way and you can move your vote later). Most scum, by contrast, want to stand off to the side and support town attacks without actually committing their vote (and risk getting called out later by an alert town or vote count analysis).
Hmm. I still don't like your rhetoric ("set off an alarm bell", "tick of a scum point"), but just because I don't like the rhetoric doesn't mean it comes from scum On the whole your defense looks town (explanation of your thought process, not resorting to discrediting your attackers), and I'm finally convinced that your attacks could make sense from a town mindset, especially after scanning Intrigue for comparison of rhetoric.
---
Here, let's let dC himself explain part of it:
Yes, yes you were in Ataghan, and obvtown by late D1 to boot. But there's a distinct difference between your posts in Ataghan and here.
In Ataghan you asked a lot of questions, but there was a point to the questions. You would focus on one player slightly more closely while still querying other players. I don't see that focus here. And the difference between the two is that the questions combined with that focus are scumhunting (you're showing who you think is scum but want to double check), but the questions *without* focus are more likely to be scum slinging accusations (scum are either hoping to get town to say something off or that other players will find something is scummy so they can jump on)
In short, town knows what they find scummy beforehand and want to doublecheck, while scum want to figure out what everyone else finds scummy so they can dodge/pile on.
Meta side note: I also went back and did cursory checks on older dC games as town (Hecatea, Cyberspace, MTGS NGE), and he shows the same pattern there.
Then I found Ghost Town, and suddenly desCoures's early questions lose the focus and "I'm questioning a bunch of players, but you're most likely to be scum" that I saw in Ataghan. DesCoures, of course, was scum in that game.
"Occurs at his expense" - Asenion appeared willing to put himself in a bad position (first D1 wagon) if doing so would drive the game forward.
"Has everyone even posted yet?" - could be distraction, but it also makes sense from the perspective of town frustrated with the pace of the game. That's consistent enough with the rest of his play to make that comment a null tell (not town, since it *could* come from scum, but null).
See above. Questioning is not exclusively a town trait.
DRey's kpaca vote is bad, but I've been burned by enough Village Idiots (VIs) on Scum that I know all too well that bad does not necessarily mean scummy, especially on D1 and especially given DRey's... unusual... play in Ataghan. I've been figuring that DRey will come out in the wash as he posts more; in the meantime, I have bigger fish to fry.
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Asen, are you *trying* to make me think you're buddying scum? You're barning but not actually voting or furthering the case yourself. Moreover, "and the town seems kind of scattered"... would you refer to "the town" if you are yourself town?
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KCC: Who do you think is scum, and why? Use examples, please.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Nis, for the reasons stated.
Beyond that, you can have one or the other.
If you want some quick gut reads, I can do that, but there isn't going to be much backing them.
If you want evidence, I can do that as well, but you'll need to wait a bit.
And for the record, I have no cares to give about people voting for me. It's likely that I can convince them not to lynch me if I want to or my claim would probably save me failing all else.
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Why don't you step up instead of asking for it?
I think you are lying and created some flimsy reasoning to lynch a good player that could be town. Its not about the neutral hunting its that you are backpedaling hard.
(7 to lynch)
kpaca - 1 (DRey)
Asenion - 1 (Forgotten One)
Forgotten One - 2 (Atheist God, Asenion)
Voxxicus - 1 (desCoures)
Nis - 3 (Cyouni, Che Guevara, KittyCupCake)
Che Guevara - 1 (Voxxicus)
Not Voting: kpaca, Nis, Taredas
Reminder: The deadline is still set for 4/26. As of tomorrow, you will have two weeks left.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
....the neutral in Redux 1 was a survivor. What, you want to go survivor hunting now?
@Forgotten One
Re: 2 - did you seriously think there was any danger of that going through at all of 3 votes?
Re: 3 - because I have seen this pattern before. Specifically, in Hamlet Mafia. Where I, as Ophelia, picked up on this exact same tell in Wrath_of_DoG, as Polonius.
I'm not convinced that 'molehill' of yours isn't a nonbasic land under a Blood Moon.
Appeal to the crowd noted. Getting uncomfortable?
@DRey
.....at the point you voted him he made all of 2 posts, each consisting of all of two words. Of those two, the first came after a fake daykill from Asenion. Are you seriously suggesting that you decided he was obvscum kpaca from all of those two posts?
@Taredas
...Ataghan was a large game, and at the point I made my first post in that game there were almost as many posts as this game has in its totality. It's a bit easier to decide on a particular player to pursue when there's been a bit more content.
And you're seriously going to tell me you've never seen town ask leading questions?
Feh. Meta.
Furthermore, cherrypicked meta. The scientific method scoffs at your 'finding a pattern' from one scum game - a game, especially, where I was specifically playing up the 'worse than vanilla' angle.
Not good enough. How did he 'appear willing' to do so at that point?
So it's a null tell. Who was the one trying to paint me as scum with it again?
Fair enough on the village idiots point. However, why do you have a problem with at least questioning him?
This is your strongest reaction after that horribly scummy barn post?
--------------------
As suspicious as he's looking, though, I am in agreement with Asenion on the lack of posting. When Voxxicus gets back, I want to hear more from him too - including why he thinks Asenion is town.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
That's definitely twisting what I said in the worst possible way, in addition to continuing to assume I'm neutral hunting.
Are you admitting to using a tactic now that serves you well as scum but not as town? That seems... untown.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
This is you expressing worry for the success of a neutral through the skills of kpaca.
I'll explain one last time. I merely proposed a hypothetical counter to your claim of random lynching D1 to be terrible policy to show a way to make random D1 lynching less bad. As I've already stated a few times, this was not a serious proposal. I am fine if you want to take KCC's side that my hypothetical is still a terrible idea; that I can understand even if I don't agree with it. Continuing to paint me as neutral hunting, however, is deliberately ignoring everything I said so things fit with a worldview you're trying to artificially construct.
Do I worry about a neutral kpaca? Certainly, but do I have any evidence that kpaca is a neutral or am I playing as though he is? Absolutely not.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Again, I couldn't care less if you were neutral hunting, I care that you are backpedaling and giving flimsy reasoning. You Asenion and desCoures are my current early game scum team read.
Good for you for catching scum in Hamlet, but do you really think that this is the same thing? Re-read Hamlet, then re-read this and the difference should be obvious.
Even if this was the exact same thing (which it really isn't), how would you explain that such behavior is always scummy? WIFOM much?
And I'm never uncomfortable...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
@Des yes, Kpaca is scum.
I quite like Tar's case. Add Des to my list of people I think is scum. I'm fine with a Kpaca, Che or Des lynch toDay.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
You know what? Screw it. I'd still rather lynch desCoures, but enough is enough. At least he's posting something resembling content.
You? You haven't posted a single piece of content this game. AT ALL. I'm used to nailing players for Information Instead of Analysis (IIoA)... but you're not even providing the information. Moreover, my biggest mental argument against dealing with you now (lack of information from lynch if you flip town... and that's an increasingly large if) doesn't really apply considering that the wagon against Nis is specifically about his "lynch kpaca at deadline" comments.
If you're town, now would be an excellent time to start caring about this game. But I'm increasingly sure you're not town and that DRey has you caught to rights.
---
Now, here's the fun part. I've been holding back the flip side of my vote restriction in order to not mess with early vote analysis. But the rest of this town has been so ****ing passive (and yes, I mean "rest of this town", there's no way that this game has 11 scum) that there's really no point.
The flip side of my vote counting for nothing when I'm not hammering? When I hammer, my vote counts triple. (Needless to say, I'm not going to look kindly on any L-1 votes today.)
HoS x3: kpaca
Kpaca is now functionally at L-3.
(I'll reply to dC's post later tonight. In other news, AtheistGod, I just saw you in this thread. POST PLEASE.)
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I will try and contribute more. I'm confident enough in my vote, but ForgottenOne hasn't posted that much. I'm not good at reading kpaca, but I agree that he isn't bothering to contribute at all and I won't oppose his lynch for active lurking.
I feel like DRey is probably town, and I also like Nis and Taredas for town.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Its an incredibly fascinating display of complete crap town play.
You're all welcome.
As for this case on me, lol. That is my response.
Drey has not played with me a lot, has zero clout at reading me, rarely understands my methods (as he openly states in several post games), and completely misrepresents my scum game, which is hilarious since my most noted scum win happened with drey on the team (granted he was lynched day one or shot night one or something). Also my posts have a lot of purpose, where is the proof I'm not scumhunting, and the phrase "and it shows" is something he threw in so he didnt actually have to show how it shows.
This is contrived and a farce.
And those were the reasons for your vote? The vote you placed in post 48?
Yeah, looking back, I now see that my description of "only five posts" was actually being generous. And, in fact, DRey made a call of "active lurking" after just 4 words in RVS.
Unvote; Vote: DRey -just... no.
As for Nis, I actually like the way he is handling his pressure and responding here. I still don't like his "hypothetical" at all, and will be keeping a very close eye on him, but I'm happy to move past that issue.
I find it questionable how you apparently took the trouble to look at Redux 1 to find there was a neutral, but didn't bother reading it enough to realize that neutral was a survivor.
@Forgotten One
No, the initial unvote is almost exactly the same thing. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to be so jumpy at all of 3 votes on the wagon - well, now there is, what with Taredas' ability, but definitely not at the time. He wasn't going to be lynched any time soon, and while there were no good reasons to think him scum, he certainly wasn't obvtown either. This behaviour, then, is very reminiscent of someone who's on a town wagon, doesn't want to be, and bailed way too fast to be natural. At this point in the game, the only people who would know kpaca to be town would be - of course - scum.
Therefore I questioned you on it. Admittedly, your response is far better than what WoD's was in Hamlet, but that's not saying much given his response there was so plastic it was non-biodegradable.
Self-consciousness much? You responded to literally the most ignorable part of that post to annoyed or indignant town, and replied in a self-defensive tone, to boot.
FoS: Forgotten One
@DRey
....really. That's all you have to say. You decided he was scum from 2 posts, and 4 words.
Bovine faeces.
Oh, that's just laughable. Taredas made his case on me here. You posted quite some time after that, responding to me to boot, here. Only now do you say 'Tar's case is good, I want to lynch dC'.
What's changed? Why, obviously because Taredas is willing to give you a free pass and that I obviously now think you're scum.
You're full of it.
Vote: DRey
--------------------
kpaca is almost certainly town - there are too many attacks on him from too many questionable quarters for that to not be the case.
Something is up with Forgotten One and Asenion. I seriously doubt they're both scum, but I'm pretty certain at least one of them is.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I have a decent town read on Asenion, but I'm liking your points on F1.
The only way to find out which of us is scum is to lynch ForgottenOne. (Hint: It's him.)
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
You complain about nobody leading the town... but when somebody tries to actually lead the town, all you do is passively support the case while keeping your vote well away from things. And you do this TWICE, the second time after the player trying to spark the town leads by example by abandoning his preferred case... but barn my case each time with minimal further explanation.
Moreover, while you have a case up on FO, you're doing almost nothing to push it forward!
That's it. Either you're not town, or you're playing so antitown that it makes no difference.
UnHoS, HoS x3: Asenion
FoS: kpaca
---
How? Got some links to past games to compare to?
To the underlined: How so? By my read the "wagon" (if you call two players a wagon - yes, I have my triple vote, but still) started because players perceived that you weren't posting actual content, just fluff. The "we should lynch someone, might as well be kpaca" comments led to Nis's wagon, not yours.
Wait... what, specifically, are you calling "complete crap town play", and why specifically crap TOWN play? Do you know the alignment of the players voting you?
How does DRey misrepresent your scum game?
How so?
Players who have played with kpaca before: Is this how he responds to pressure as town? I'm not particularly familiar with his playstyle.
---
Huh. There's the dC I remember from lurking Ataghan. Maybe dC is, in fact, town, and I just jumped the gun and didn't give dC enough time to do anything with his questions.
Why not both? I'm not sure about here, but over on Scum voting a buddy early but never really pushing the case is a classic distancing method.
---
Gut reads (plus whatever you have to back them), please. You've been off on the side of the game since the end of random stage, that's not a town place to stand.
What caused your view on Nis to change now as opposed to earlier?
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Have I said that I like you? I think I have. I didn't barn your case this time. I have no read on kpaca and have no intention of voting him. I can tell that you are trying to lead and I would like to support you, just not in this lynch without better evidence. There's no info there. I liked the Des case more, because even though it was mostly from 1-2 posts, it was a really strong point.
You are welcome to try and lynch me if you desire. I am now effectively at L-3 right?
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Fair point.
And of course I've seen town ask leading questions. Hell, I've made them in *this game*. But I've also seen them from scum, and I hadn't seen any of *your* comments on the game - just questions.
I had enough trouble tracking down Ghost Town - AFAICT, it's your most recent game as Mafia. Either MTGS search just doesn't handle like Scum's does or it leaves much to be desired IMO.
If you've got other games you consider more representative of you as Mafia, by all means link to them. Meta's not the be-all and end-all, but it's a useful tool in a scumhunting toolkit.
He's asking why there isn't a wagon on him for his actions. Scum don't generally point that out.
Okay, so maybe they do given Asenion's most recent posts, but still.
Posting your own opinions on other players drives scumhunting and is thus pro-town. Just asking questions without adding comments doesn't let other players get a read on you, and as such it's one of the methods scum sometimes use to appear to scumhunt without actually doing so.
Moot point given your post 130, but there you go.
DRey's kpaca vote was the sort of thing I'm used to seeing from town VIs on MafiaScum, especially in late random stage and immediately thereafter. As I said, DRey's vote was bad, but in this context bad =/= scummy.
That was a "I still think you're town despite this post, so sit down, shape up, and stop acting anti-town" reaction, not a "you're scum because of this post". Here's a Scum example of the same. (Mind you, the player in question turned out to be scum, so...). You've seen the next step in the progression ("either you're scum or you're acting so antitown I don't care"), because I've just pulled it on both kpaca and Asenion.
---
Oh really now?
Observe the following:
Please explain how the bolded in the second post *isn't* tacitly supporting the kpaca wagon, because I'm not seeing it.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
The criteria was a neutral in a mini. Now you're moving the goalposts. Of course this is all just a distracting rabbit hole. I've explained myself enough times.
I wonder if a vote would make him come out of his shell. Vote: AtheistGod
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Let the hammer of justice strike him down.
Vote: Taredas
What is your experience level Che Guevara? Roughly how many games have you played and how strong of a player do you consider yourself? For example I've played ~25 games probably and I would say I'm overall like a 6/10 mafia player skill level.
@Taredas: Btw, I do see how a lot of my actions seem somewhat anti-town. They DO all have a purpose though. I don't actually want to be lynched Day 1 because as a self-janitor that would screw us out of our Day 1 wagon/flip information. After that it shouldn't be as big of deal and I have no problem with dying as long as it's not by Night Kill.
I'm a little bit afraid to try and lead the town because most of my reads so far are really meh. I would push more on ForgottenOne, but he only has 7 posts and basically no content in any of them. 6/7 of his posts are about kpaca, but don't actually offer an opinion one way or the other. The 7th post is him voting me, but he didn't post reasons for why he voted me and refused to tell me why he was voting me when I asked him. The only answer I got was that my self-janitor status was part of the reason, but "not the whole reason." This indecisiveness, lack of commitment, and attacking of the obvious low hanging fruit is enough for me to believe he is scum, but not a lot to build a case on. He's my only strong scum read right now and there is no point in build a case for "townieness" this early in the game. (And arguably never since buddying is inherently a scummy action.)
tl;dr: I'm acting scummy for role related reasons but I should probably stop now. Forgotten One is scum because he has no relevant opinions, he voted me simply because of a low hanging fruit role-claim, and he refuses to explain his mindset or decisions.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Well I was going to unvote as soon as you posted something. What you did post, however, made me change my mind. I'm comfortable keeping my vote on you.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Everyone else should have an opinion on at least 1-2 of these wagons.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
You forgot one. I want you lynched. There is nothing "bad" about my vote at all. The only thing that is "bad" is your scummy play.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Too late...
Do you just not pay any attention or do you always just throw out demonstrably false statements like this?
Nope. I even said so. But you can keep on trying to insinuate otherwise.
Where have I refused anything? This is just hyperbole for scuminess sake...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I want drey lynched. What game are you reading?
During this entire post you still did not state a single reason why you are voting for me beyond my partial claim. Here's his initial vote for me:
He posted that in response to me claiming self-janitor. I voted him for trying to lynch me based on a role.
Forgotten One has still not posted a reason for voting me.
The saddest part is that there is AMPLE ammunition to use against me. I've said and done whatever I felt like this game with no filter and it shows. There are plenty of my posts in which you could say I was caught scum. But to ignore all of that, not respond to the game situations at all, and vote only in response to a partial role claim of a traditionally scum role, is just anti-town behavior. 0 effort applied. 0 analysis done. Extravagant statements like "obvscum" meant to create reactions. No explanation of mindset. I think Forgotten One is the clearest candidate for scum in the game.
@kpaca: Sorry, didn't consider that. Btw, I don't think DRey is scum this game from what I've seen so far. What are your reasons for voting him?
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
So you think I'm scum because I voted for you for being obvscum even when you admit to behaving like obvscum.... yeah that sounds like a Town mindset.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I've played with you in Clue, Seasons, WOW and Enders(maybe even more I don't remember). I've also read some games with you, how that's not many games? Also I'm talking about your scumgame because I have an unique perspective from having played with you before, I'm not "misreping" it and I can prove because I read the Seasons Mafia QT, where you keep Pale mage alive just for him to do the work while you actively lurked and handweaved your attackers until the bitter end.
What's most damming however is that you still haven't provided any reasons for prompting people to vote me yet. You just answered this case, but when you first said "Why are we letting drey come to a pass?" I didn't even had posted that yet. So what were the reasons I was being scummy back there?
You are being dense, haven't you previously said Tar had your vote? Why being so bullheaded now? If you are really indifferent towards Kpaca while thinking the game is stalled just vote him as two of your townreads are doing (me and Tar).
This is pretty bad. You claimed to be a self-janitor but self-janitors have no reason to be scummy on purpose (in fact I don't see any role that has, besides jester). I know you lie as town, but I'm not too fond of liars.
/barn
@F1 You really are slowrolling this or what? You don't have the option of not providing this info, please do in the next post.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.