I'm curious about whether there was anything I could've done in DA mafia to not go down like I did on day 1. Granted, the final blow was from a townie lying so that he could counter-claim me *shakes fist at Kenji* but I was also one of the only possible lynches for day 1.
Also, somewhat related, I was a mafia doc in DA mafia. Who is best to protect with that role? The one making the NK? The godfather?
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
So, apparently I'm a horrible townie, as I've just been lynched on Day 2 and Day 1 in two seperate games. I post my thoughts on a topic, and get called for "sounding like I'm contributing but not really." I bring up some interesting occurances when there is no pressing case against me, and I get attacked for "subtley trying to redirect attention." I try to give weight to the opinions of what I know to be good players, and get jumped on for "barning anybody and everybody." How can I improve? That's gonna suck if I get outed day 1 every time I'm scum, or make an easy target for a mislynch every time I'm town.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
I'll post this again when they're over, since I'd hate for anybody to give things away while the game is going on.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Hey, guys. Looking at the end of Sympathy Mafia, it seemed like the mafia was about to win but because all the townies were basically confirmed they lost. What do you think about easily confirmable/obvious roles (theres always a doc and cop) in mini-mafia? do they make it unfair for the mafia?
Hey, guys. Looking at the end of Sympathy Mafia, it seemed like the mafia was about to win but because all the townies were basically confirmed they lost. What do you think about easily confirmable/obvious roles (theres always a doc and cop) in mini-mafia? do they make it unfair for the mafia?
Easily confirmable and obvious roles should be counted as something only slightly less powerful than masons, perhaps more so in some cases, if they can essentially self-confirm. They absolutely have to be taken into account when balancing the game, either by tossing in deceptively reassuring roles to the mafia, or through other methods.
My philosophy is that claims tend to have too much influence in non-basic games. It's a much greater challenge, and much closer to how the game was intended to be played, when you must judge primarily on people's play, rather than their claimed role.
I somewhat agree w/ AS..I'm not really a fan of the basic Cop role being in Mini or Newb(I realize it's impossible to avoid this) games at all. With so few players, the chance that the Cop will just randomly win the game for the town, on his own, is severe. Honestly, I think that the mafia should *always* have a role-blocker, if the town has a cop, when the game has that few players.
However, as far as Sympathy goes, the Mafia didn't lose because the town had too many confirmable roles, they lost because they didn't play well. The SK randomly tried to claim a role that was obviously in the game anyway, even though he could have just laid low for one more day and had 3 kills resolve at once, and got caught up, and then 2 of the 3 mafia members went *way* overboard trying to make the SK's claim seem believable. On top of which, the Mafia didn't NK well, and didn't use their Redirect ability well at all. Some of the townies in that game were scummy enough that they could have easily been lynched eventually, the mafia just blew it, IMO...and that was even after the town's vig killed a townie and got himself killed in the process.
Could Fayul/people in Three Kingdoms mafia please HURRY UP WITH YOUR GAME? It's been night for like 4 days since last day, and I want to see magic mafia start sooner rather than later.
I wouldn't count on that game ending anytime soon, honestly. Nevermind the fact that the next day should have started by now, one of the remaining mafia members is currently un-lynchable, as stated by the Mod. The game has a Vig, but, I'm not sure what'll happen if he dies..and either way, it's going to be a time consuming process in a game that is already slow.
You're better off trying to get the pointless '1 Specialty game at a time' rule lifted.
I wouldn't count on that game ending anytime soon, honestly. Nevermind the fact that the next day should have started by now, one of the remaining mafia members is currently un-lynchable, as stated by the Mod. The game has a Vig, but, I'm not sure what'll happen if he dies..and either way, it's going to be a time consuming process in a game that is already slow.
You're better off trying to get the pointless '1 Specialty game at a time' rule lifted.
Great idea. Unlynchable mafia. Fayul just start the damn day, it's been 4 f-ing months since that game started!
In fairness, Fayul has done a good job of keeping the game interesting, so far. I'm sure that there's something that can counterbalance Cao Cao being unlynchable...if nothing else, as I said, we have a Vig.
@arimnaes:
It wouldn't strain the playerbase if another pointless rule(that you can only be in 1 game of a given type at any time) was also removed.
It wouldn't strain the playerbase if another pointless rule(that you can only be in 1 game of a given type at any time) was also removed.
But that's not the rule we're discussing. Nor is that rule pointless - if it didn't exist, the same group of players would sign up for every game, which would lead to homogenous games. Not to mention that some players would bite off more than they could chew and sign up for like 4 or 5 games, and as a result couldn't be very engaged in any of them.
Quote from Alfred »
Nice catchphrase. Who are you, my grandmother?
Thank you for elevating the discourse. I'm saying you shouldn't be crass and disrespectful to your fellow players, which is what you're doing now. The mafia forums of MTGS do not exist to cater to your needs, and your needs only. So unless you have a legitimate complaint about Fayul's modding, you should stow it.
Edit: It seems Alfred wants to continue this battle via PM... how very mature.
Thank you for elevating the discourse. I'm saying you shouldn't be crass and disrespectful to your fellow players, which is what you're doing now. The mafia forums of MTGS do not exist to cater to your needs, and your needs only. So unless you have a legitimate complaint about Fayul's modding, you should stow it.
You know what? Let's let games go one for as long as they want to. It really makes people who are waiting in line to have their versions of mafia (I helped create Magic Mafia) love how long it takes. Wait, actually, it's been night for 4 friggin' days, let's get ths show on the road.
Four days is a perfectly normal amount of time for night to last. Even in smaller games, nights usually last at least three days.
Look at virtually every other game that has ended in this forum. All of them lasted ~2 months. This game has lasted twice that amount and isn't over yet.
~3 months is more accurate, especially in regards to specialties.
Besides, you seem to be forgetting that games spend much, much more time in day than in night. Which means you should be yelling at every single player in the game, including me, not at Fayul.
Could Fayul/people in Three Kingdoms mafia please HURRY UP WITH YOUR GAME? It's been night for like 4 days since last day, and I want to see magic mafia start sooner rather than later.
I did.
Anyway, where did you get the silly idea that nights last 4 days?
While I love hearing my name, please try not to talk about games in progress (especially for those who were actually discussing the game setup.)
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
While I love hearing my name, please try not to talk about games in progress (especially for those who were actually discussing the game setup.)
They are free to discuss assuming they bring up no new information or information not specifically verifiable through out-of-game methods (such as looking at post dates.) Complaints about game length probably should go to the mod (to tell them to hurry up), or here.
It feels like four months to me, and, like Alfred, think it is dragging on a bit.
A pointless rule? Come on, you know me, all of them are
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MAENTWROG (n. Welsh)
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake. SR
But that's not the rule we're discussing. Nor is that rule pointless - if it didn't exist, the same group of players would sign up for every game, which would lead to homogenous games. Not to mention that some players would bite off more than they could chew and sign up for like 4 or 5 games, and as a result couldn't be very engaged in any of them.
Well, I can understand setting a limit to how many of each game time a person can be involved in..I just don't think that limit should be 1. Or at least, there should be some kind of scale. Like, people that are known for lurking/having to be replaced can only play in 1, but, people that are known for always being active in their games, etc, can participate in more. I mean, I'm involved in like 8 games right now(or something like that) and could easily take on a few more, and I doubt anyone would ever accuse me of not being able to keep up. If the limit was just 2 games per person, at least, Specialty games wouldn't be such a chore...Salvation probably loses alot of quality Specialty games because people get tired of waiting and just go elsewhere..and obviously(IMO), Specialty games are the best ones that there are.
Starting a new train of thought, when designing a game how many scum / neutral killing groups do you think a mid 20s person game can hold? It seems like most games hold an SK and a 4-5 man scum group, but what other combinations seem reasonable? Would an SK and two 3 man scum groups overload the game with night kills (especially if there's a vig)? Would the crossfire balance it out? What numbers are reasonable?
Generally, if you have two mafia's, you either limit your SK or have none at all. Two mafia's in a 25 person game would probably be 4 each. With a SK, 3 each would work, but the game becomes more swingy. A mafia might be doing fine, and then they get hit by both the SK and the other group, and then they're almost automatically at a loss with only one member remaining.
There are ways of balancing things out, though. You could give each mafia a doc, for instance. Make the SK unnightkillabe. Or drop the SK for a cult that can't recruit mafia. Kinda depends on where you're going with your set-up.
Honestly, you can do some pretty swingy stuff, as long as you build roles around the swingy stuff to absorb the shock. For example, if you have a lot of nightkills per night in your game, be prepared to include a resurrection or two as an ability in the game, or else make some powerful doc abilities on both sides.
The rule I typically try to follow is that for each "major" ability in the game (i.e. an ability that could break the game open for one side or the other), include at least one minor foil (roleblockers, docs, untargetables, etc.), and one major foil (something that acts in direct opposition to the ability, such as a cult curer, or a resurrection). You can modulate power of abilities up and down by dictating how practical they are to use (stuff like posting restrictions or targeting restrictions), as well.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Honestly, you can do some pretty swingy stuff, as long as you build roles around the swingy stuff to absorb the shock.
Exactly. SFTDM had a very swingy role in it (the night 3 triple SK), and had a lot of built-in stuff to make sure that role could be mitigated and also to ensure that role wouldn't be randomly killed early. It wouldn't be fair if the SK was randomly killed night 1, wouldn't be fair if the town lynched a townie and two mafia and then got bombed out anyway without a way around it, and wouldn't be fair if the mafia got the town to mislynch 3 in a row and then got unstoppably bombed out by the SK, so I made sure none of those could happen.
Note: I'm replying here in this thread rather than in the sign-up thread since I think that's supposed to be reserved for just mod sign-ups.
Quote from Ged »
Also, I'd like help balancing a set up. Do I just PM a member of the council for help with this?
Well, I'm not sure how Axel is going to feel about me signing him up for this, but I must say that he was a tremendous help to me in balancing my upcoming mini-setup, L5R mafia *shameless plug*. His attention to detail is excellent and he really has a solid grasp on how to account for best/worst case scenarios.
Now that both of these games have ended, I'll repost this that I made quite a while ago.
So, apparently I'm a horrible townie, as I've just been lynched on Day 2 and Day 1 in two seperate games. I post my thoughts on a topic, and get called for "sounding like I'm contributing but not really." I bring up some interesting occurances when there is no pressing case against me, and I get attacked for "subtley trying to redirect attention." I try to give weight to the opinions of what I know to be good players, and get jumped on for "barning anybody and everybody." How can I improve? That's gonna suck if I get outed day 1 every time I'm scum, or make an easy target for a mislynch every time I'm town.
I notice that in Star Trek mafia, most of the people behind my lynch were in fact town, which makes me feel even worse for having forced the town to lynch me. Any thoughts?
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Now that both of these games have ended, I'll repost this that I made quite a while ago.
So, apparently I'm a horrible townie, as I've just been lynched on Day 2 and Day 1 in two seperate games. I post my thoughts on a topic, and get called for "sounding like I'm contributing but not really." I bring up some interesting occurances when there is no pressing case against me, and I get attacked for "subtley trying to redirect attention." I try to give weight to the opinions of what I know to be good players, and get jumped on for "barning anybody and everybody." How can I improve? That's gonna suck if I get outed day 1 every time I'm scum, or make an easy target for a mislynch every time I'm town.
I notice that in Star Trek mafia, most of the people behind my lynch were in fact town, which makes me feel even worse for having forced the town to lynch me. Any thoughts?
From what I've seen, people seem to be suspicious of you as a bandwagoner more than anything else. When you echo the thoughts of others, they worry that it's because you have no genuine opinions of your own, no ideas to contribute to the hunt. And when they feel people aren't really contributing, they feel you're probably anti-town.
So, basically, the solutions to that are tracking down new leads, or exploring old leads further in analysis/PBPA type posts.
Thanks for the feedback, and I'll certainly work on it in the future. I know part of my downfall at least in Star Trek also had to do with the fact that my main accusers were RafK and Puzzle, and the rest of the town, as well as the remaining mafia, followed like sheep. I'm beginning to wonder if Puzzle hasn't found a way to hypnotize people over the net to carry out his nefarious will.
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It seems like minis, on here, are consistently slow moving/lacking activity/requiring replacements. IPOD Mini died, Power Rangers moves at a ridiculously slow pace, and Cartoon isn't really much better, often not even getting a post every day. This seems like a problem that should be addressed, if we could figure out what the actual problem is.
But yes, I agree. Minis tend to move slower than other games. I think this is mostly due to two things:
1) Fewer players mean fewer posts. And whereas, when a normal game gets down to 10 players, it's probably day 5 and there's lots to discuss, when a mini game gets down to 10 players... it's day 2. There's much less of an accumulation of information, which discourages some players from posting.
2) When a player is involved in both a mini and a larger game, they will naturally tend to prioritize the mini lower, because it involves fewer people.
And of course, the problem is self-propagating, because when other players aren't posting much, it's difficult to find anything insightful to say yourself.
Well, the only solution that jumps to my mind is one that I doubt you'd agree with, based on past discussions; that would be to further limit the number of games that can be participated in simultaneously.
I would say that Power Rangers is not a typical case study as far as minis go on MTGS... over half the players have been replaced, and now some of the replacements will need replacing. In PR mafia, I have to say it's my honest opinion that it just wasn't a particularly productive group of players, to start with. CPE, AgentDark, Alfred, Ximbad... these are not people known for being regular contributors.
In cartoon mafia, it seems to be more a case of having generally active players (Azrael, DYH, CropCircles, etc.), but those players are also involved in extra games (mostly God Mafia.)
I'm actually inclined to agree with you, sad as that may be. It seems pretty silly that someone can't seem to keep track of 2-3 games at once, but, that clearly appears to be the case, so the severe limit on how many games a person can be in makes alot more sense right now.
A sort of metagamey way that a mod can try to keep up participation is to include more roles that do stuff during the day. In Sin City, for instance, the fact that the SK killed during the day made people a lot more on edge and a lot more willing to come out and say stuff right away, because you never knew when someone would just die in the middle of the day's proceedings.
In games where everything happens at night, basically the only information people have to go off of is the previous day's lynch results and the morning scene. The entire discussion has to run its course, and the town has to choose someone to lynch, with no new information at any point before the next lynch.
The problem for minis is that with only 12 slots to fill, it's hard to put in a substantial amount of daytime roles without largely invalidating the existence of opposing roleblockers.
And ya, just to add about PR mafia, about half of the players are lurking/need a replacement. And it is also the slowest moving game I have ever been in. It deffinatly is an exception to that, Cyan.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Well, people on MTGNews and MiseTings probably say that about MTGS.
I'm actually going to make a conscious effort to be more aggressive on day 1's in future. When the town has so little information compared to the mafia, it's to the town's advantage to get a strong bandwagon going before the mafia can manipulate the discourse too much.
Either way, a 60-page day 1, a la God Mafia or Star Trek Mafia, may simply be too long. I'm not even sure whose favor it works in, because on the one hand, the town has 60 pages of records to use against people, but on the other hand, 60 pages is an incredibly daunting amount to ever actually reread. Which means that in many cases, all that good evidence goes to waste, because townies just figure it's easier to follow the current events and their gut.
I also note that the mafia have won a disproportionate number of games on this site, recently. Whether that's related to the staggering length of many games, I'm not sure.
Well, people on MTGNews and MiseTings probably say that about MTGS.
MTGNews games move MUCH slower than games here on MTGS. In fact, the pace Cartoon or PR mafia is on is about standard for a game there.
MiseTings typically does move rather fast, but it's totally dependant upon whether or not Grakthis is in the game. Seriously. I have never seen someone so spammy in my entire life. He's very good at reading people most of the time, however. The biggest differences between their games and ours is the "not frowned upon double and triple posting" and "spam is ok" mindset, the former which I must say I like a lot, the latter, meh. The ability to just drop in a comment without having to take the time to read back through and say everything at once is a blessing. Long posts probably have a tendency to get skimmed over, short posts- concise and to the relative point, are easier to read through.
I don't understand the whole "anti-multipost" concept being applied to mafia games since we can't edit, anyhow. It's not like we win a prize for having the highest postcount or anything.
I think News games move alot more slowly mostly because people don't log in there alot.
I've never seen a misetings mafia game, but, I've heard alot of ridiculous rumors about them that sound about right, considering that it's misetings(12 person games with 4 groups of 3 mafia and no townies, etc).
I do agree w/ DYH about the multi-posting...I don't see why people make such a big deal about it. Granted, it's some more work for the Mod, but, it's not anything really time consuming nor complicated. fade does an amazing job of making sure that 'double-posts' don't stay that way for long, though.
*nods* I wouldn't mind making less work for Fade by eliminating (more than it already has been eroded) the whole no-double post restriction. Some people consider them eye-sores, but they do make it easier to play the game.
I agree, it just seems like totally unnecessary work for Fade. Clearly, people would still need to be reasonable about multi-posting, and should still face the possibility of penalties if it becomes a major problem, but, I think it should be allowed in general, instead of fade having to basically constantly watch this forum.
I wanted to discuss the setups of newb games. Newb 8 was, I felt, stacked heavily against the mafia, with a cop, a doc, backups for both, and only 4 vanilla townies, against the 3 mafia. So, I wanted to get my finger on the pulse, as it were, as to how people felt about the "correct" setup for a newb game.
The setup we've been using as our "standard" for a few games seems to be 11 players, with a cop, a doc, a one-shot vig, and a mafia roleblocker. One issue I have with this setup is that the one-shot vig role is fairly useless. A mis-vig puts the town a whole day closer to LyLo, and a correct vig essentially does nothing for the town unless it happens to hit the mafia roleblocker. So, one change that I might suggest is to make there be 12 players (with an extra vanilla townie) so that smart vigging is rewarded.
I think he meant godfather as in a mafioso who isn't vulnerable to nightkills, as opposed to one who is investigated as innocent. The term has kind of come to mean both, which is slightly unfortunate.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Hmm. In that scenario, you'd probably need to upgrade a mafia member to a godfather, to help compensate.
Really? I'd have thought the extra body would be compensation enough, since it doesn't give the town an extra day but it does make it marginally more difficult to pick out the mafia.
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Also, somewhat related, I was a mafia doc in DA mafia. Who is best to protect with that role? The one making the NK? The godfather?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Easily confirmable and obvious roles should be counted as something only slightly less powerful than masons, perhaps more so in some cases, if they can essentially self-confirm. They absolutely have to be taken into account when balancing the game, either by tossing in deceptively reassuring roles to the mafia, or through other methods.
My philosophy is that claims tend to have too much influence in non-basic games. It's a much greater challenge, and much closer to how the game was intended to be played, when you must judge primarily on people's play, rather than their claimed role.
However, as far as Sympathy goes, the Mafia didn't lose because the town had too many confirmable roles, they lost because they didn't play well. The SK randomly tried to claim a role that was obviously in the game anyway, even though he could have just laid low for one more day and had 3 kills resolve at once, and got caught up, and then 2 of the 3 mafia members went *way* overboard trying to make the SK's claim seem believable. On top of which, the Mafia didn't NK well, and didn't use their Redirect ability well at all. Some of the townies in that game were scummy enough that they could have easily been lynched eventually, the mafia just blew it, IMO...and that was even after the town's vig killed a townie and got himself killed in the process.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
You're better off trying to get the pointless '1 Specialty game at a time' rule lifted.
Great idea. Unlynchable mafia. Fayul just start the damn day, it's been 4 f-ing months since that game started!
And Alfred, would you like some cheese with that whine?
@arimnaes:
It wouldn't strain the playerbase if another pointless rule(that you can only be in 1 game of a given type at any time) was also removed.
Nice catchphrase. Who are you, my grandmother?
Thank you for elevating the discourse. I'm saying you shouldn't be crass and disrespectful to your fellow players, which is what you're doing now. The mafia forums of MTGS do not exist to cater to your needs, and your needs only. So unless you have a legitimate complaint about Fayul's modding, you should stow it.
Edit: It seems Alfred wants to continue this battle via PM... how very mature.
You know what? Let's let games go one for as long as they want to. It really makes people who are waiting in line to have their versions of mafia (I helped create Magic Mafia) love how long it takes. Wait, actually, it's been night for 4 friggin' days, let's get ths show on the road.
Look at virtually every other game that has ended in this forum. All of them lasted ~2 months. This game has lasted twice that amount and isn't over yet.
Besides, you seem to be forgetting that games spend much, much more time in day than in night. Which means you should be yelling at every single player in the game, including me, not at Fayul.
I did.
Anyway, where did you get the silly idea that nights last 4 days?
Case 1:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=23958&page=18
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=23958&page=19
Case 2:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1182921&highlight=it+is+now+night#post1182921
Case 3:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1176556&highlight=it+is+now+night#post1176556
Case 4 Specialty Mafia:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=789048&highlight=it+is+now+night#post789048
All of these nights take 2 days or less. I think you just made up the "fact" that it takes 4 days to have people message in their night choices.
They are free to discuss assuming they bring up no new information or information not specifically verifiable through out-of-game methods (such as looking at post dates.) Complaints about game length probably should go to the mod (to tell them to hurry up), or here.
It feels like four months to me, and, like Alfred, think it is dragging on a bit.
A pointless rule? Come on, you know me, all of them are
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Well, I can understand setting a limit to how many of each game time a person can be involved in..I just don't think that limit should be 1. Or at least, there should be some kind of scale. Like, people that are known for lurking/having to be replaced can only play in 1, but, people that are known for always being active in their games, etc, can participate in more. I mean, I'm involved in like 8 games right now(or something like that) and could easily take on a few more, and I doubt anyone would ever accuse me of not being able to keep up. If the limit was just 2 games per person, at least, Specialty games wouldn't be such a chore...Salvation probably loses alot of quality Specialty games because people get tired of waiting and just go elsewhere..and obviously(IMO), Specialty games are the best ones that there are.
There are ways of balancing things out, though. You could give each mafia a doc, for instance. Make the SK unnightkillabe. Or drop the SK for a cult that can't recruit mafia. Kinda depends on where you're going with your set-up.
[The Family]
The rule I typically try to follow is that for each "major" ability in the game (i.e. an ability that could break the game open for one side or the other), include at least one minor foil (roleblockers, docs, untargetables, etc.), and one major foil (something that acts in direct opposition to the ability, such as a cult curer, or a resurrection). You can modulate power of abilities up and down by dictating how practical they are to use (stuff like posting restrictions or targeting restrictions), as well.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Exactly. SFTDM had a very swingy role in it (the night 3 triple SK), and had a lot of built-in stuff to make sure that role could be mitigated and also to ensure that role wouldn't be randomly killed early. It wouldn't be fair if the SK was randomly killed night 1, wouldn't be fair if the town lynched a townie and two mafia and then got bombed out anyway without a way around it, and wouldn't be fair if the mafia got the town to mislynch 3 in a row and then got unstoppably bombed out by the SK, so I made sure none of those could happen.
Well, I'm not sure how Axel is going to feel about me signing him up for this, but I must say that he was a tremendous help to me in balancing my upcoming mini-setup, L5R mafia *shameless plug*. His attention to detail is excellent and he really has a solid grasp on how to account for best/worst case scenarios.
Thanks again, Axelrod.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
So, apparently I'm a horrible townie, as I've just been lynched on Day 2 and Day 1 in two seperate games. I post my thoughts on a topic, and get called for "sounding like I'm contributing but not really." I bring up some interesting occurances when there is no pressing case against me, and I get attacked for "subtley trying to redirect attention." I try to give weight to the opinions of what I know to be good players, and get jumped on for "barning anybody and everybody." How can I improve? That's gonna suck if I get outed day 1 every time I'm scum, or make an easy target for a mislynch every time I'm town.
I notice that in Star Trek mafia, most of the people behind my lynch were in fact town, which makes me feel even worse for having forced the town to lynch me. Any thoughts?
From what I've seen, people seem to be suspicious of you as a bandwagoner more than anything else. When you echo the thoughts of others, they worry that it's because you have no genuine opinions of your own, no ideas to contribute to the hunt. And when they feel people aren't really contributing, they feel you're probably anti-town.
So, basically, the solutions to that are tracking down new leads, or exploring old leads further in analysis/PBPA type posts.
It seems like minis, on here, are consistently slow moving/lacking activity/requiring replacements. IPOD Mini died, Power Rangers moves at a ridiculously slow pace, and Cartoon isn't really much better, often not even getting a post every day. This seems like a problem that should be addressed, if we could figure out what the actual problem is.
But yes, I agree. Minis tend to move slower than other games. I think this is mostly due to two things:
1) Fewer players mean fewer posts. And whereas, when a normal game gets down to 10 players, it's probably day 5 and there's lots to discuss, when a mini game gets down to 10 players... it's day 2. There's much less of an accumulation of information, which discourages some players from posting.
2) When a player is involved in both a mini and a larger game, they will naturally tend to prioritize the mini lower, because it involves fewer people.
And of course, the problem is self-propagating, because when other players aren't posting much, it's difficult to find anything insightful to say yourself.
I would say that Power Rangers is not a typical case study as far as minis go on MTGS... over half the players have been replaced, and now some of the replacements will need replacing. In PR mafia, I have to say it's my honest opinion that it just wasn't a particularly productive group of players, to start with. CPE, AgentDark, Alfred, Ximbad... these are not people known for being regular contributors.
In cartoon mafia, it seems to be more a case of having generally active players (Azrael, DYH, CropCircles, etc.), but those players are also involved in extra games (mostly God Mafia.)
In games where everything happens at night, basically the only information people have to go off of is the previous day's lynch results and the morning scene. The entire discussion has to run its course, and the town has to choose someone to lynch, with no new information at any point before the next lynch.
The problem for minis is that with only 12 slots to fill, it's hard to put in a substantial amount of daytime roles without largely invalidating the existence of opposing roleblockers.
I'm actually going to make a conscious effort to be more aggressive on day 1's in future. When the town has so little information compared to the mafia, it's to the town's advantage to get a strong bandwagon going before the mafia can manipulate the discourse too much.
Either way, a 60-page day 1, a la God Mafia or Star Trek Mafia, may simply be too long. I'm not even sure whose favor it works in, because on the one hand, the town has 60 pages of records to use against people, but on the other hand, 60 pages is an incredibly daunting amount to ever actually reread. Which means that in many cases, all that good evidence goes to waste, because townies just figure it's easier to follow the current events and their gut.
I also note that the mafia have won a disproportionate number of games on this site, recently. Whether that's related to the staggering length of many games, I'm not sure.
MTGNews games move MUCH slower than games here on MTGS. In fact, the pace Cartoon or PR mafia is on is about standard for a game there.
MiseTings typically does move rather fast, but it's totally dependant upon whether or not Grakthis is in the game. Seriously. I have never seen someone so spammy in my entire life. He's very good at reading people most of the time, however. The biggest differences between their games and ours is the "not frowned upon double and triple posting" and "spam is ok" mindset, the former which I must say I like a lot, the latter, meh. The ability to just drop in a comment without having to take the time to read back through and say everything at once is a blessing. Long posts probably have a tendency to get skimmed over, short posts- concise and to the relative point, are easier to read through.
I don't understand the whole "anti-multipost" concept being applied to mafia games since we can't edit, anyhow. It's not like we win a prize for having the highest postcount or anything.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I've never seen a misetings mafia game, but, I've heard alot of ridiculous rumors about them that sound about right, considering that it's misetings(12 person games with 4 groups of 3 mafia and no townies, etc).
I do agree w/ DYH about the multi-posting...I don't see why people make such a big deal about it. Granted, it's some more work for the Mod, but, it's not anything really time consuming nor complicated. fade does an amazing job of making sure that 'double-posts' don't stay that way for long, though.
The setup we've been using as our "standard" for a few games seems to be 11 players, with a cop, a doc, a one-shot vig, and a mafia roleblocker. One issue I have with this setup is that the one-shot vig role is fairly useless. A mis-vig puts the town a whole day closer to LyLo, and a correct vig essentially does nothing for the town unless it happens to hit the mafia roleblocker. So, one change that I might suggest is to make there be 12 players (with an extra vanilla townie) so that smart vigging is rewarded.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Really? I'd have thought the extra body would be compensation enough, since it doesn't give the town an extra day but it does make it marginally more difficult to pick out the mafia.