* No lynching the claimed cop. And you sure as hell don't vig him. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I had a trio of Xyre posts queued up to type "Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot." one at a time after each, but that just creates more unnecessary walls of text, so I'm condensing. Negative marks for Che, CropCircles, and Xyre. CC and Che need to post more. (And Xyre could post less text, my word.)
Ok, so what about lynching the claimed vig? Do you think which ones are more likely to be lying scum: cop or vigs?
Before I answer this loaded question, let's clarify: a 1-shot vig != Vigilante. This is the part you do not seem to be understanding.
Now, to answer your point, scum are generally going to false-claim cop before vig. The former could net them a counter-claim of the town's most powerful role. The latter could get them killed by the town vigilante. More below:
* Where I do agree with Xyre, though, is that I'm suspicious of Wessel. I would characterize his play just as he did - "passive". While this spat feels contrived on both sides with some of the language being tossed around, I doubt that a scum pair would get into it with each other this late in the day. Without an obvious lynch apparent, a few votes could pile on one or the other and result in disaster for them. I think we're looking at either town/scum or town/town as a result; not distancing.
Wessel always play like this, Xyre's case on him is quite bad and looks like scum trying to nitpick words to make mountains of molehills, "vehement" really!?. Read Wessel other games if you want proof.
If I get time, I'll do that. I'm more concerned about Wessel's absurd over-reaction to Xyre's comment on his playstyle. Yes, "vehement".
* I believe DRey is telling the truth about his role and that he believes he is confimed town as a result. A tough-guy in a mini isn't impossible, however, as Wessel's math showed.
Et tu, Brute?
A tough-guy power is not just "he reduces town Days by one" but you already know this, I'm certainly not teaching you to play mafia since your skills are quite superior to mine, so the only question that remains: why are you playing dumb? Also provide me a link of a game with a tough-guy since you think it's a fair role.
Let me get this straight - you think I'm betraying you because I don't buy your 1-shot vig = confirmed town theory, even though I think you're town anyway?
* Zindabad is doing Zindabad things that don't give me warm fuzzies. He did the exact same thing in Cyberspace and lurked his way to being the last scum alive.
Yeah, my feelings exactly. Considering his play so far he's quite high in my list of people I wouldn't shed a tear if he was accidentally shot.
Rather than try to work out which of Xyre/Wessel is more likely to be scum in such a short window, I'm going to go with the obvious answer and
Vote: Che Guevera
Lurky, no scum-hunting, wants to kill the claimed cop; not impressed.
Bzzz. Che is far from the lurkiest. Che is very very obviously quite bad at this game so his "no-scum hunting" is to be expected, he's also scumhunted more than your predecessor for example.
It's Kpaca. I can't even begin to speak for his actions.
Quote from DRey »
To boot, many others have expressed desire to kill the claimed cop, why this is a point only against Che? Also why no mention about the people that wanted to kill the vig? And the one who proposed we kill the cop AND the vig, or worse that directed the vig to shoot the cop? Seriously, the player who proposed this, no matter the alignment, has just won the worst play of the year award and the year has just started. The fact that it's just impossible to create a wagon for the guy despite his content just proves there's a lot of scum magic at work here.
I'm not exactly high on Xyre, either. I made it pretty clear why I'm voting Che. There's a week left, and I don't feel like having a wall of text battle with Xyre when I'm pretty sure Che is scum. I also need to read said walls of text in more detail, and I couldn't knock all that out in a few hours today.
Quote from DRey »
In the end your first post is real bad, looks like you are trying to push the lynch of the weakest link of the town, because all Che's post scream noob town more than anything and he clearly can't defend himself, contrary to the scum mastermind Xyre, that has managed to fool both Zion and Wessel from behind his walls.
You know, you remind me of ZeDorkSlipeur in Megiddo's Avatar Mini. There scumZDS also attacked me because I hadn't explained something in full right at the beginning, and then accused me of making things up as I went on. And then when I explained everything fully, I was attacked for explaining too much. And eventually lynched.
Why such a throwaway statement to say you suspect him?
I don't know. I felt that way about him and I felt the need to say it. Digging through the depths of my psyche, the reason why I posted it was because I felt Xyre was behaving just like ZDS did in that game. It was more an announcement that I felt I was onto him.
Why so blasé about it? If you felt he was behaving like ZDS, ie. like scum, then why so unconcerned? Why are you saying it like you don't care about it?
I think there are a few moments where you're not calm, like when you said you were trying hard not to swear. But overall, I'm conflicted about you, with the pendulum swinging slightly to the scum side. See, I disagree with your stubborn attack on Caex, but I do think overall you are calm and collected. On the other hand, I doubt your sincerity, but that might be coming from tunnelvision or some sort of tenacity. Overall, the fact that ZDS acted pretty much the same makes me think you're likely to be scum as well.
I mean, ZDS was calm and collected throughout the whole game. I saw him as town for that. However, from the moment he began attacking me I saw that he was probably too tenacious to be sincere. He also used rhetorical fallacies to try to trick the town into believing I was scum, and I haven't seen you employ those yet, so that's a point in your favour.
But yea, overall I doubt the sincerity of your tenacity.
How does "Xyre not doing something ZDS did" become a point in his favour, especially given that's playstyle-related?
It's just a manner of speech. There were several things that made me feel the same about Xyre as I did about ZDS. Since ZDS was scum, anything Xyre didn't do that ZDS did, was a point in Xyre's favour of not being ZDS, of not being scum.
If you meant something differently, please clarify.
So is "looks like ZDS" the only reason you have as to why Xyre is scummy?
I've only taken a quick look at the last bit, and will have to read more before I comment on the rest.
First thought that comes to mind is that I've seen similar behaviour to what he claimed from a cop.
Suspects Caex may be town. Quite a revealing post once we know Caex's alignment.
As a note, the behaviour I was referring to was in CCMIV, from AsianInvasion.
I'd like Cyouni to get more involved because I like where he's been going with the questions he's been asking. D_V seemed decent too, so I'm pretty happy calling Cyouni town at this point.
I've been feeling pretty meh recently, partially due to being sick followed immediately by exams.
Claiming a 1 shot vig does NOT make you "certainly town" in a mini. You could very easily be scum lying. Which is why we don't want you to fire tonight. We'll want you to prove yourself later, which is why no one is wanting to lynch you right now.
Yes, it makes, show me a game where there's has been a scum vig in a mini, HECK PROVIDE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A SCUM VIG, EVER. It can't be done, I've tried to design games with toughguys and it's just impossible, they are simply way too powerful to make balanced games. At most the scum can get in a game is a poisoner nowadays.
Past three months: two games with toughguys. And that's just games I've been in.
Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it's impossible.
And if I actually felt like it, I'm more than sure I could find a toughguy in a Mini.
Basically I wanted to create some hard to play roles with some serious drawbacks, Eco taught me an important lesson back there, players need to be rewarded when they are lucky/smart/play well. If you "reward" players with their death, you are just making their lives miserable. Hiting the cop is the scum roleblocker wet dream, protecting the cop is the town doc biggest dream. When you make the cop untargetable for the two roles that most want to target him, for very good reasons mind you, after all it's their purpose in life. It's just a slap in the face of the players, that's not good design, that's bastard design. "Hey doc, you just succesfully protected the cop, oh well it does nothing, the cop is dead anyway sorry" is simply unnaceptable game design, and I'm sure neither AI nor Eco would have created such role, another thing that make me sure Caex is lying is that Eco forbade me of creating a scum role that said "you can choose between ninja, godfather or unnightkillable for the night" because that would reveal the town was comprised of a vig, a cop and a tracker, Caex role as claimed just informed to him the existance of the doc and the roleblocker, unnaceptable. That's why I think Caex is lying and he created this false-claim with the only purpose of surviving for the day and I think he's an important scum power role.
First, paragraphs exist.
Second, balance issues. It completely counters the "follow-the-cop" tendency.
Third, you really consider giving the scum information about all three town power roles in a Basic equivalent to giving a townie information about one town and one scum role? Not remotely alike.
Fourth, if your "bastard design" lines were actually true, Godfather, bulletproof, Ninjas, and probably other things I can't immediately think of would all be "bastard design". They all fall under "you did something correctly but it doesn't matter".
Okay, I did a big reread and graded everyone in the game.
DRey - DRey's arrogant, and his play has been all over the place, but his play makes me reasonably confident he's town. The more I think about it, the less I feel it likely he's a mafia extra kill - of course there's an outside chance, but his play increasingly seems inconsistent with a scum killer. (The only thing that comes to mind that might suggest otherwise was his weird reversal on counter-claiming Caex.)
Zionite - Zionite's play has been better since our many bouts, and I admit my case was more threadbare than I thought. Meh.
DYH (r. kpaca) - I don't really know how to read kpaca, tbh, but he did seem pretty genuine in finding scum suspects later on. DYH's last couple of post were pretty good, I felt.
WellofLostGnomes - Reads pretty genuine to me. I don't know if I agree with him on Che, but I recognize his reasoning and the tells he identifies. Curious whom else he suspects.
Stardust - I think Stardust is a newb. I want more time to assess him, per usual. (I find that newer players require larger data sets to suss out their motivations.)
CropCircles - CropCircles is a known lurker, so his lack of major content isn't a revelation. He picked out Caex early and his arguments were reasonable there. I think his opinions are well-reasoned generally, though there's the occasional line that bugs me. Overall, this is a player I want more information from before I feel comfortable making a stronger read - especially because most of his content is about DRey and Caex.
Che Guevara - Uh... so far, most of Che's posts were given over to the Caex and DRey show and aren't really indicative (supporting killing both of them is a position scum could hold just fine). I think there are points where he's a little too bloodthirsty even for my taste (like 347), but again it's hard to say whether he's just going full speed toward seeing DRey and Caex killed because he knows something we don't, or that's just his style. There are a few other posts that piqued my curiosity, but nothing definitive. Really, he just needs to be prodded/replaced, as he's been gone a week.
Caex - Plenty has been said about Caex, so I'll save myself the trouble of rehashing. Suffice it to say, he's not the lynch for today, so long as we can come up with a battle plan for his night.
zindabad - Lurking hard. He's only made one post of content, and it's a doozy - or at least, it appears to be. But looking back over 314/315, I notice he doesn't draw a lot of strong conclusions, I feel. He picks out one scum suspect - Caex - but note that this fell after Caex had been dragged up to L-2 and claimed, so no points for that. The playstyle zinda reminds me of right now is Wrath of DoG's famous "apologies and PBPAs" scum meta. I'll go take a look at zinda's play in recent scum games. Obviously, this read is contingent upon his promised follow-up, but honestly the longer it takes, and the longer he doesn't just say something about the current action, the more I feel like he's begging off to buy himself some time to formulate a stance.
Wessel - Wessel's play is all over the map. I feel confident that that's less a reflection of his stated difficulty with strategy and more an attempt to justify mistaken play. He especially seems sensitive to the amount of pressure I put on his wagon - implicitly calling me scum when I'm targeting him more strongly, then abruptly calling me probable town when I show a hint of pulling back. It's either a case of Reverse-OMGUS, or an attempt to pacify me.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Cyouni's doing the lurking-in-plain-sight strat.
Points against him:
1) His list of suspects proffered to DRey was Che Guevara and CropCircles, two major lurkers, with no arguments given as to why he'd be willing to lynch those players (or even much of any indication of any suspicion in previous posts at all). This is one of the few times Cyouni's given any opinion whatsoever this game, and the method by which he did so (even tacking on a "this is subject to change" to make the opinion even more fleeting) reflects his general passivity.
For my next two points, I'll refer you to the five content posts in question: 274, 332, 373, 402, 437
2) Content issues, general: Cyouni's made 8 posts. Of those 8, three of them had (essentially) no new content (one was a reminder to Caex to answer some questions, and two related to not being able to post - one of which, it's worth noting, did contain a throwaway comment on Caex's behavior).
Of the other five (mind, this is over two weeks of play), Cyouni asks a lot of questions to many random people, but he rarely follows up on his questions (minus the Caex exchange from the first three posts, he only has follow-up questions in his fifth and most recent post), suggesting generally he's poking around at the fringes, trying to find something of note. Which is weak play, but not necessarily scummy play, except
3) Content issues, specific: Cyouni does not seem to be asking questions designed to elicit whether the player he's questioning is town or scum. This is the same problem with Wessel - asking questions is a great way to look busy while not actually making any ground on anyone or risking exposure. So we need to ask ourselves what's the mindset behind the questions Cyouni asks - what's his overall strategy, and how do these questions serve it tactically.
The Caex series is particularly notable - Cyouni prods at Caex's strategy, but basically his arguments just boil down to "wouldn't you just get killed" - not doubting Caex, just quibbling with him. It goes nowhere, and it just fizzles. Cyouni doesn't even attempt to take the extra step of suggesting Caex might be fronting with the entire claim. It's just a weird angle to be pursuing. And it all just peters out by the fourth post, with Caex just giving a meek "alright" to Caex.
But that serves Cyouni's five posts. He makes no votes; he critiques logic, but never considers its implications or intentions; and in short, he's just not here at all.
I get he's been sick, but this feels different than "too sick to post" - he's clearly reading the thread, but he seems surprisingly uninquisitive for someone making posts full of questions. Much like for Wessel, I think this is a ploy.
So my "willing to lynch" set is Wessel, Cyouni, and distant third zindabad.
DRey's logic about being "confirmed" and there never being scum killing roles is terrible. I was accusing him of being scum and lying about his claim (town, 1shot vig) and saying it's an easy claim because he could just state that he hit the same person as the scum team did, then we would have to deal with wifom in regards to his alignment.
His scummy play and his claim led me to believe that he was either:
1.) Regular mafia member
2.) Serial Killer/ 1 shot SK.
3.) Mafia 1 shot killer
all hoping to cover his kill with 1 shot vig claim, or draw out a CC from the real vig and kill them tonight.
This is going to sound a bit crazy considering my earlier stance, so bear with me.
I'm now fairly convinced DRey is town, and is telling the truth about his ability. His responses seem genuine and that type of conviction in his own alignment is not easily faked. I'm sure that when he shoots and his kill flavor is different from the mafia kill, we will all feel a bit better about him. I also think that we have enough possible scum targets to warrant him deciding if he wants to shoot, and who he wants to shoot, on his own.
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Che is a gimmick. It came out in another thread quite a while ago. I won't out exactly who he is since I'm guessing he'd like to keep that a secret and I'll respect that, but I will say that he has played in many games on this site.
Post 390 feels like a townie arguing with a townie to me (Xyre responding to Wessel). I wish I could pull out a quote to solidify that read, but I can't. It just feels better than Xyre's previous responses. His case on Wessel is still bad though.
Care to explain?
Explain why I felt like it was two townies fighting, or explain why I think your case on Wessel is bad?
Also, if you trust DRey now, how does that affect your reading of Wessel's 323, in which he called CC a likely scum buddy of DRey, and you said is reasonable? Because those two sentiments seem contradictory.
"Note for later". I don't trust DRey, but I'm willing to give him the chance at a shot. If he later flips scum (for example, if the real vig kills him), that post will look pretty bad on CC. I didn't want to forget that.
Aside from that, your case on Cyouni is somewhat compelling. His questions looked to me like he was staying involved and prodding people, but reading him again now, you're right that there's really little substance there - no follow-up and no really good questions. Ugh, I hate having six scum reads though. Probably means the claims are true...
1) Zionite
2) Che Guevara
3) Cyouni (better than CropCircles at this point, I think)
DRey's logic about being "confirmed" and there never being scum killing roles is terrible. I was accusing him of being scum and lying about his claim (town, 1shot vig) and saying it's an easy claim because he could just state that he hit the same person as the scum team did, then we would have to deal with wifom in regards to his alignment.
His scummy play and his claim led me to believe that he was either:
1.) Regular mafia member
2.) Serial Killer/ 1 shot SK.
3.) Mafia 1 shot killer
all hoping to cover his kill with 1 shot vig claim, or draw out a CC from the real vig and kill them tonight.
...
I'm sure that when he shoots and his kill flavor is different from the mafia kill, we will all feel a bit better about him.
How does the last sentence align with options 2 and 3?
1) His list of suspects proffered to DRey was Che Guevara and CropCircles, two major lurkers, with no arguments given as to why he'd be willing to lynch those players (or even much of any indication of any suspicion in previous posts at all). This is one of the few times Cyouni's given any opinion whatsoever this game, and the method by which he did so (even tacking on a "this is subject to change" to make the opinion even more fleeting) reflects his general passivity.
I hate giving lists like that (or town/scum lists of any kind) because it doesn't work for how I play - I never actually think about it. Those two given were solely because they have outstanding things to address, and that's why it's subject to change.
3) Content issues, specific: Cyouni does not seem to be asking questions designed to elicit whether the player he's questioning is town or scum. This is the same problem with Wessel - asking questions is a great way to look busy while not actually making any ground on anyone or risking exposure. So we need to ask ourselves what's the mindset behind the questions Cyouni asks - what's his overall strategy, and how do these questions serve it tactically.
Anything I see as odd or out of place gets questioned. If it doesn't go further than that, then I don't think there's a point in it going further.
Same thing I've been doing for years.
How does the last sentence align with options 2 and 3?
The "options" as you're calling them were my original theories about DRey's actual role/alignment. The part you're leaving out of your quote is that I now believe DRey is being truthful about his role/alignment. I originally did not believe that when he shot, if indeed he actually could shoot, his possible kill would look different from the mafia kill or appear town flavored.
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@Stardust: Does knowing who Che actually is, and thus his meta, alter how you're reading him this game?
His meta (what I've read of it anyway) is similar to how he's posting here. Short and sweet. I think he's generally been more involved in his previous games rather than just making commentary like he was early in this game, and I don't think there's much excuse for his aggression towards the Caex lynch.
So, the answer is that I took a brief look at it to see if his kpaca-lite style is normal, and it is. Other than that, his meta gives very little to work with, so I'll continue to call scum as I see it.
I hate giving lists like that (or town/scum lists of any kind) because it doesn't work for how I play - I never actually think about it. Those two given were solely because they have outstanding things to address, and that's why it's subject to change.
You're willing to lynch them based solely on having outstanding issues to address? Scum can answer questions too, so this doesn't seem very effective. How do you decide who's town or scum if you never think about it?
I will answer the second, but not the first. Typically I'm of the opinion that pouring too much info on reads into a thread is bad for the town since it gives a chance for the scum to tell who is reading stronger and plan accordingly. Some sharing of information is important, of course, so I had no problem answering your question since I believe you're town. Given that, I assumed you had a plan to use that information in some way and wanted to follow-up with a question to make sure you actually do follow-through. So, why did you ask?
So you have no problem asking me for information, but you will not answer the question I asked because that would pour too much information on the thread? Ok... Well, let me answer your 'why did you ask question' now. In #383, you stated you will support DRey's lynch regardless of what else you're going to find, including Xyre who is a town read to you. That's insincere - how do you know your view on DRey and others will remain roughly the same?
You misunderstand. I refused to answer your first question because I didn't feel like giving you an out for a question I wanted answered. The remainder of that section was entirely in answer to your second question. I wanted to know why you asked because I generally don't like pouring reads into a thread for no reason. So I assumed you had a reason.
Xyre was a strong town read early on and an experienced player. Unless there was something that just clicked and gave me some certainty that he was scum, I wasn't going to feel good about supporting his lynch today. That's why I named him specifically with regards to DRey. That wasn't to say that I'd be going after a DRey lynch no matter what, just that I doubted I'd be going after Xyre instead. Most importantly, at the time I'd either forgotten or hadn't yet read that DRey claimed vig. That changed a lot, obviously.
Follow-up question: What do Caex, kpaca, CropCircles, WellOfLostGnomes, Che Guevara and Zionite have to do with Xyre vs. DRey?
Also, the formulation 'You're funny, but I like you' is strange. So you think I'm funny, but despite that, you think I'm probably town. Why is that?
That "you're funny" came shortly after I'd read your requirement that everyone sign their name in their next post. I laughed at that. No deeper meaning there at all.
The specific reason I asked I will not tell because that would defeat the purpose of the question. I will explain what I wanted with the question some time in the future, or if you're dead.
If the answer is, "I wanted reads to go off of after I kill you," that's okay, you know. If I'm the lynch today I'll help in any way I can.
I'm not so happy about the (depending on whether we mislynch) 8/11 or 9/11 chance the vig would hit town. Which is why I'm happy to lynch DRey. He's firmly scum in my book and I don't see the benefit of leaving him alive since he has a large chance at hitting town if he's truly the vig. So we either lynch him which will either be a correct or a mislynch (I'm almost sure it's the former). Or we don't lynch him and we have an even larger chance to lose town due to DRey's vig.
But the most important thing is that even if DRey is truthful, if we lynch him we take away one kill, which will lengthen the game, which is more beneficial to town.
The game going longer also gives the mafia more nightkills. But anyway, it's unlikely that a random kill would even shorten the game right now.
Let's assume that DRey is town and the only player in the game with a kill ability (if he's telling the truth, I think that's quite likely). To make it simple, let's also assume that there are three scum and that every kill kills a townie.
Lynch DRey
Day 1 start (9 town - 3 scum)
Day 1 lynch (8 - 3)
Night 1 (7 - 3)
Day 2 lynch (6 - 3)
Night 2 (5 - 3)
Day 3 lynch (4 - 3)
Night 3 (3 - 3) WE LOSE!
Don't Lynch DRey
Day 1 start (9 town - 3 scum)
Day 1 lynch (8 - 3)
Night 1 (6 - 3)
Day 2 lynch (5 - 3)
Night 2 (4 - 3)
Day 3 lynch (3 - 3) WE LOSE!
So either way we lose at the end of Day 3. DRey's kill doesn't lengthen the game at all. Though I guess I'm also assuming that any doc protections fail as well...
Anyway, even if my assumptions are incorrect, your same logic can be applied to advocate for a nolynch, which is obviously a terrible idea. The game going longer doesn't necessarily help the town. We want to control as many kills as possible.
DRey's been pretty scummy, but it's hard to imagine that we'll have more than one killer in a 12 player game. I want to give him the chance to prove himself.
How likely do you think it is that Che is going to be lynched, compared to, say, you?
Umm, three times as likely. Che's pretty scummy and certainly not putting in as much effort as I am. My name's been tossed around, I guess, but I'm doing my best to work for the town here, so I hope that's enough to prove myself. I haven't felt too pressured so far when the only person voting me is my primary scum lead.
One last thing! I know it's possible that DRey is scum with an extra shot, but how probable is it? Please give approximate chances (percentage) for these three scenarios:
1) DRey is town vig.
2) DRey scum.
3) DRey is scum with an extra shot.
No one wants to lynch Caex, the unCC'd cop despite being scummy enough to deserve it. DRey is reading as town for just about everyone. We have less than a week to decide a lynch and the only candidate left is Che, who's getting replaced apparently. Stardust doesn't think revealing who Che is a gimmick of could possibly help us right now, and is probably scum. But no ones voting him so whatever.
Unvote
Not going to try to lynch the replacement for a scummy predecessor.
Now we have 2 replacements 4 days before a deadline. I suppose I'll go take a look at Cy in detail.
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How does the last sentence align with options 2 and 3?
The "options" as you're calling them were my original theories about DRey's actual role/alignment. The part you're leaving out of your quote is that I now believe DRey is being truthful about his role/alignment. I originally did not believe that when he shot, if indeed he actually could shoot, his possible kill would look different from the mafia kill or appear town flavored.
So your thoughts on his kill flavour reflect what you believe his alignment to be?
I hate giving lists like that (or town/scum lists of any kind) because it doesn't work for how I play - I never actually think about it. Those two given were solely because they have outstanding things to address, and that's why it's subject to change.
You're willing to lynch them based solely on having outstanding issues to address? Scum can answer questions too, so this doesn't seem very effective. How do you decide who's town or scum if you never think about it?
I'm pretty sure that list was for "top 3 suspects".
Me declaring someone scum/town is solely due to if their stories line up with their mindset or not. There's the phrase "the devil is in the details". It's not an easy task to create a deception in which everything falls into place. The truth is far easier. Not to mention the fact that no one can actually spare the time or effort to go through every inch of their lie and have it make sense.
Any read coming from scum is inherently a lie, as they know who's town. Find inconsistencies, and you find scum. (Or people who have a mental condition that allows that, as once occurred.) It also requires a look at their mindset to see whether it fits or not. So my parameter's not town-scum, it's inconsistencies-none.
Let's break this game open. This was going to be a review by player starting with Stardust but Xyre just went and derailed my sled into a straight up PBPA:
DRey's first post reminds me of how I acted in Magical Girl Mafia:
Quote from Seppel in Magical Girl Mafia because the thread is locked and I can"t directly quote »
I'm Misumi Nagisa from Futari wa Pretty Cure. I'm a neutral wanderer. My win condition is to find my best friend and survive to the end of the game. Once per night I can target someone and hope that that person is my best friend.
My role PM doesn't say who my best friend is, but Google says it's Yukishiro Honoka (or possibly Shiho or Rina).
So if you're Yukishiro Honoka, Shiho, or Rina, please claim.
Thanks.
P.S. Consider my vote to be on everyone who isn't Honoka, Shiho, or Rina.
DRey, you really are serious, aren't you? What makes you think we'll let you get away with putting nothing into this game?
If you're town, naked votes and no content hurt the team. If you're scum, no content makes it impossible to catch you. I can't believe you'd take a chance like this as town when both outcomes (your lynch or no content) hurt the town, so I suppose that means you must be scum. Vote DRey.
Xyre is being pretty aggressive with the meta arguments right out of the gate. That's the only thing that has really caught my attention so far. The stuff about kpaca bussing is particularly weak.
Xyre is being pretty aggressive with the meta arguments right out of the gate. That's the only thing that has really caught my attention so far. The stuff about kpaca bussing is particularly weak.
Unvote Vote Xyre
So going on meta is scummy?
This seems like the weakest vote I have seen in this thread.
Even Drey's vote had more meaning than this.
Please tell me what great meaning DRey's vote has.
Hi guys, first thing I want to do now is to claim. I claim town. I also want to abstain from all discussion D1 because I dislike D1's, but I will give my vote to the biggest wagon from time to time for the purpose of advancing the game.
Wake me up D2 when we will have some bodies to analyse.
Hi guys, first thing I want to do now is to claim. I claim town. I also want to abstain from all discussion D1 because I dislike D1's, but I will give my vote to the biggest wagon from time to time for the purpose of advancing the game.
Wake me up D2 when we will have some bodies to analyse.
K cool this will be easy.
unvote: vote drey
The Infamous BUSSING
I just realized I completely misinterpreted this. As someone who is unfamiliar with Seasons, this reads like DRey made the exact same post in Seasons and kpaca responded the same way, like an inside joke. I clicked on the quote links and was still in this thread.
Now that I understand this correctly, I have to say there aren't enough similarities to make this a strong argument. kpaca's been aloof so far, while the Seasons quotes make him seem far more serious. The similarities just aren't there for a meta argument.
Xyre is being pretty aggressive with the meta arguments right out of the gate. That's the only thing that has really caught my attention so far. The stuff about kpaca bussing is particularly weak.
Unvote Vote Xyre
Didn't we just play a game together where my entire schtick was aggression and meta-arguments?
Except they were good, and you weren't aggressive.
Xyre is being pretty aggressive with the meta arguments right out of the gate. That's the only thing that has really caught my attention so far. The stuff about kpaca bussing is particularly weak.
Unvote Vote Xyre
Didn't we just play a game together where my entire schtick was aggression and meta-arguments?
Yep. But that's pretty much a null tell. If you're aware of your meta, you can play around it.
But then your point is "he's done this as town in the past, so he must be doing it as scum now", which is all assumption, right?
As for the bussing point, I'll say it again: I want DRey lynched first either way. If he's town, then obviously kpaca wasn't bussing and I'll reassess.
This is a terrible reason to unilaterally lynch DRey.
Xyre is being pretty aggressive with the meta arguments right out of the gate. That's the only thing that has really caught my attention so far. The stuff about kpaca bussing is particularly weak.
Unvote Vote Xyre
Yeah, that's because you don't know Xyre modus operandi correct? I mean you never played a game with him before right?
BTW what's your read on Zion?
Will get to Xyre in a moment.
You've got my attention with your case on Zionite, though. I'd be willing to vote Zionite or Stardust, along with Xyre obviously.
You've got my attention with your case on Zionite, though. I'd be willing to vote Zionite or Stardust, along with Xyre obviously.
Caex, I don't like this. Setting yourself up to vote for the biggest wagon is bad. So I looked into you in more detail. Before I share that detail and what it means to me, I'd like you to spell out your case on me please. I feel like you tossed my name in there as an easy mislynch given that I'm fairly new and also notoriously scummy as town (ie: I'm bound to "slip" eventually).
Looool this is a bad post. I'm not "setting myself up" to vote the biggest wagon. I'm saying I will happily vote the biggest wagon (when the RVS votes are gone). He's the biggest wagon for a reason, you know. Pardon me if I'm interested in voting for scummy players.
As for you: I don't really have a "case" on you. But my gut reaction to your posts is that they're scummy. And my gut has proven pretty accurate in my recent games.
You pre-emptively proclaiming you'll be acting scummy and will scumslip at some point isn't making me feel any better about you, btw.
Unvote Vote Stardust
@Zionite: I'll get around to answering your question sometime today.
What games have you seen scumStardust? I have yet to play with a scumStardust. How does it differ from a townStardust?
Looool this is a bad post. I'm not "setting myself up" to vote the biggest wagon. I'm saying I will happily vote the biggest wagon (when the RVS votes are gone). He's the biggest wagon for a reason, you know. Pardon me if I'm interested in voting for scummy players.
As for you: I don't really have a "case" on you. But my gut reaction to your posts is that they're scummy. And my gut has proven pretty accurate in my recent games.
You pre-emptively proclaiming you'll be acting scummy and will scumslip at some point isn't making me feel any better about you, btw.
Well that's not exactly the reaction I expected. I'll have to think about what that OMGUS vote means here... Also, "biggest wagon" there was referring to any wagon that happens to build up, not Zionite in particular. You handwaved a reason to vote for any other three people, two of which were under pressure (both of whom I'm generally reading as town) and one that could be an easy mislynch (me).
As for my slips, you played with me in Giant Robots. You know this is true. I'm trying my best to comb through my posts here since it got us badly off track at times in that game, but using that as a basis for your vote is a non reason.
Anyway, I'd gone through your old posts and pegged you as leaning town actually based on your voting patterns. But now that you've followed your "gut" into a nervous vote, I'm not so sure considering there's a solid scum mindset behind that move. I'll mull it over to make sure I'm not being influenced by my own reaction to your vote. Stay tuned.
Fellow Giant Robot player checking in. I support the fact that Stardust slipped left and right. It made it so hard to believe he was town.
Just checking in from anxious game preparation to say Zionite's still likely scum. His post justifying his vote on CropCircles is really weird - he refers to himself in the third person to mask the fact that his attack on CropCircles is OMGUS ("a single target" = Zionite, natch), and he uses the "fact" that "RVS was over" to label what was clearly a random vote as a "masquerade" to attack Zionite, and reads opportunism into it without further elaboration to back it up beyond a third vote. If I didn't know better, that post would immediately land Zionite in my "scrubs to ignore for a while" column.
Plus there's the fact that he defends the equally-random votes of other players like Che because "he later cited reasons". In case Zionite hasn't noticed, CutCropy has made only ONE POST.
I know Zionite is smart enough not to derive some great scum find from one post, particularly one as vague as CropCircles'. I'm not sure what his intention is in focusing on CC, exactly - maybe trying to undermine a case; maybe trying to find a new target; maybe just angry - but I don't see a town mindset in his vendetta.
As an aside, the post also has weird tone-deaf lines like "I know I'm town, so I have a unique perspective no one else has at this point. I'm also confident I will not be today's lynch." of which I have no idea what to make.
I think the evidence against Xyre is stronger than Caex, unless you're referencing some meta I'm unaware of. I think Caex was unintentionally using fallacious logic, so I'm comfortable hearing more from him until I can discern the motive. Xyre on the other hand is much more promising.
Can you make a case on him? Not a PBPA as I think they are a waste of time, but some bulletpoints would be nice.
Because to me is the opposite, I think Caex is purposely using bad logic, trying to create mountains of molehills on random people. Xyre on the other hand is just being an idiot, but that can be explained because he's cocky. Aren't you sure you are being blinded by a natural OMGUS knee-jerk reaction?
What is preventing both Caex and Xyre from being scum?
@Caex: I'm vouching for Stardust, but what sort of slips are you seeing here? I don't see any. You yourself said your case was on gut so what is this about slips now?
I know you are incredibly prone to foot-in-mouth syndrome so I'm giving you a chance to calm down and walk me through your thought processes.
@Xyre: I've read your case, but this just doesn't read like the Zionite from Cyberspace Mafia, for example. He actually has meaning behind his votes and he's not trying to cover his ass.
Also what's up with the coaching line? Do you know whether scum have daytalk? Without knowing that, your accusation here is quite baseless. Do you actually believe DRey is scum or are you just trying to push a case to see where it goes?
I agree that the third-person line is positioning, but I don't see how it's a scum mindset and not a neutral point-of-view.
I think Drey and Wessel are shifty and I don't have a solid enough bead on che to decide he isnt shifty.
I think I'll let some more posturing happen for a bit tho.
Confidence in Kpaca: rising.
Oh my god a Xyre explosion. One town-sounding post does not forgive 5 scum-sounding posts. All that anger is ATEing me out, though.
Okay, I can see people are starting to take sides on the Xyre/Zionite issue.
Kpaca doesn't support the Zionite case.
DRey wants Xyre lynched.
Stardust supports Xyre.
WoLG is staying out of it.
CC sees the same thing I do about Caex.
...and Zionite pulls out.
Oh yay people are voting Caex.
Note to self: Xyre is asking DRey for his opinion of Caex.
@Wessel: Please post something that can make me divine your alignment. The questions aren't particularly strong questions.
Yay Caex wagon. It's not a Xyre wagon but it's the next best thing.
Reading through again, I'm convinced that Caex is scum and Zionite is bussing him. DRey as the third makes this all work quite nicely! Interactions are there, but obviously we'll need a flip to prove it out.
*throws it in the oven*
Your cakes are good but your other dishes are flat.
DRey's T/S list mirrors mine, except exchange Wessel for Kpaca.
I've crashed the car and I have lots of other problems in my life right now to make a real post so some bullet points.
-Xyre is trying to buddy up with me, by mimicking my reads and saying I'm town. I wanted to say I'm immune to that but I'm just a human being after all, he does looks more townie after his last posts, that being said he's still todays lynch.
-Wessel is certainly town, only an idiot would annoy a guy with a gun. Oh that's also yet another reason for why Xyre is scum. before my claim he was "OMG DRey is scum, lynch plz" after my claim "yeah, drey is too scummy to be scum, he's certainly town now". not buying it.
-I quite like Sep's post.
-There's something on the air, something only the big boys have noticed, I will not expand on this, but I think most people have finally caugh up. A question to confirm this, who here is REALLY against a Caex lynch? Who here has a town read of him? (besides bad townWessel)
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
What games have you seen scumStardust? I have yet to play with a scumStardust. How does it differ from a townStardust?
Not buying it.
I've seen no games with a scumStardust. What does that have to do with anything at all? I didn't make any kind of comparison between scumStardust and townStardust, so I'm a bit baffled at where you're coming from here.
Quote from Seppel »
Fellow Giant Robot player checking in. I support the fact that Stardust slipped left and right. It made it so hard to believe he was town.
Stardust is likely town, Caex is likely scum.
You thought he slipped left and right. I never saw anything to make me believe he was scum. I don't recall really interacting with him at any point in Giant Robot.
Quote from Seppel »
@Caex: I'm vouching for Stardust, but what sort of slips are you seeing here? I don't see any. You yourself said your case was on gut so what is this about slips now?
I know you are incredibly prone to foot-in-mouth syndrome so I'm giving you a chance to calm down and walk me through your thought processes.
I don't recall saying anything about slips... The only time I can think of when I mentioned Stardust and slips in the same post is when I called him out for saying "I'm totally gonna act scummy and have scumslips but ignore that" right at the start of the game. Pre-emptive defensive mindset and all that.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
I've been kind of skimming along with this game, but I'll do an in-depth read through shortly. Not exactly looking forwards to combing through the walls of words, though. Condense, folks.
Not lynching Caex, and probably not willing to lynch him tomorrow, either, if he's not shot. Lynching cop claims is dumb.
Not lynching DRey. If he comes in with a sob story about how he shot the same target the mafia did, well. Yeah, okay. But it's a relatively provable role, and I don't see it as a tough guy in a mini.
Need to look back over early game to form thoughts on anyone else, though. I've read the most recent page, but not the early stuff - the massive words of wordiness.
Will say that my gut is screaming at me that Seppel is scum, already:
Quote from Seppel »
...which should be great for breaking this game open.
Quote from Seppel »
Let's break this game open.
Quote from Seppel »
Oh what the **** caex
the ****
are you for real
and you can't be protected what the hell
welp
'Breaking the game open' feels forced, for lack of a better word. In the same way that people adding 'because I'm town' after everything they say does. It's just a little more subtle than that, I guess.
And the reaction to Caex really feels forced. I don't like it.
It's all gut, and I'd need to look at the person he replaced as well to see if the read solidifies due to that, or falls apart. Also need to read Xyre myself and see what my thoughts are there.
But jumping into the game and waving a sign above his head that says "I'm so town I'm gonna break this game open on man, look how town I am reacting to this thing" is a Thing.
Unvote if Che had his anywhere and such. Will report back later tonight or tomorrow with re-ready things.
Stardust doesn't think revealing who Che is a gimmick of could possibly help us right now, and is probably scum. But no ones voting him so whatever.
Are you ever not going to twist my words? Not a single person has asked me to reveal Che's identity and I'm not going to out of respect for what I assume is a desire for secrecy, despite it being slightly relevent to this game (which is not really all that important, in the grand scheme of things). Anyway, it's in a public thread, so you can search it out yourself if you really think it's that critical.
Also, the formulation 'You're funny, but I like you' is strange. So you think I'm funny, but despite that, you think I'm probably town. Why is that?
That "you're funny" came shortly after I'd read your requirement that everyone sign their name in their next post. I laughed at that. No deeper meaning there at all.
I wasn't talking about the 'you're funny' part, I was asking about the 'but'. How does me being 'funny' preclude you 'liking' me? Or differently, what went through you when you wrote the 'but' there?
One last thing! I know it's possible that DRey is scum with an extra shot, but how probable is it? Please give approximate chances (percentage) for these three scenarios:
1) DRey is town vig.
2) DRey scum.
3) DRey is scum with an extra shot.
1) 15% I mean, I could be wrong, but he's just playing completely like his scum self. Sucking up to people that see him as town. Twisting words and painting people as scum. Making weird accusations and throwing suspicion around. And not playing at all like I would expect a town vig to play, with regards to kpaca's vig announcement.
2) 70% I can see the argument that it's unlikely a scum player in a 12-player setup has a 1-shot kill ability next to the factional scum kill. I agree it's quite likely DRey was just making a scumgambit. He hoped that when he had to claim, he could just come away with 'No vig is ever scum' and possibly 'Which scum would ever claim his ability to be called 'Kill''. But his behaviour doesn't match him being a town vig.
3) 15% It's not impossible as DRey wants to have us believe, but I think he would not have claimed his ability would be named 'Kill' if he's a mafia toughguy.
I agree that Option 2 is the most likely. But I'm not willing to lynch him unless Option 3 really is probable. I agree that getting other vets to comment on this would be good. If it truly is 15% for a toughguy, I'd be up for the lynch today.
Thirding the "Stardust was a train wreck in Giant Robot". That doesn't change anything for me as far as Caex is concerned - still not lynching the claimed cop.
I don't care for Voxx (formerly Che, who I was/am voting) coming in throwing mud on Seppel for doing Seppel things. That's absolutely not indicative of his alignment one way or another.
So your thoughts on his kill flavour reflect what you believe his alignment to be?
I believe my posts accurately reflect what I believe his alignment to believe.
If he is telling the truth, which I now believe he is, the flavor of his kill will reflect his alignment when juxtaposed with the mafia kill flavor.
Cyouni: If you had to choose one player to lynch right now, who would it be?
Seppel's post 456 is reading as a genuine stream-of-consciousness analysis.
Voxx's first post looks good, except for his gut read of Seppel. Nothing about Seppel's diction reads "forced" to me. His analysis of Seppel's comment "Let's break this game open" seemed incorrect. He is trying to use it to say that Seppel is talking about *actually breaking the game open* (Let's win the game through a loophole in design) instead of *Let's break this game open* (Let's break this case of beer open/Let me get started on my analysis.)
I don't like his multiple uses of the word "thing" in that post, it's almost like he's using it to paint Seppel in a negative light without solidifying his read with anything other than his gut.
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-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Hey Zionite! You haven't made a post with real content in the last ten days other than your PBPA on me. Given that we're coming up on deadline and you only have two scum leads (Caex and myself), I might have expected you to try a little harder to find something useful.
Obviously I'm reading this as you ducking down while we scramble for a lynch, but here's your chance to prove yourself.
Man, I really wanted to have time to help more, but my life is a mess right now and organizing the prerelease in the weekend is also troubling me. Has anyone compiled the top scummiest list we've done a little ago? If not can someone do it? We need to move forward.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I think I got all that right. I pulled some of that from general conversation, so if you want to update or change any of that, post away.
No list given: WOLG, zindabad, Voxxicus, Seppel, Caex, DYH
PS: Sorry Zionite, I missed that you mentioned Wessel there while skimming your recent posts. I guess you do have three scum leads, but some content would still be good.
I'm going to need a couple more days to respond to Wessel et al. Between running my games and other necessary work, I just don't have the time to respond to everything.
Hey Zionite! You haven't made a post with real content in the last ten days other than your PBPA on me. Given that we're coming up on deadline and you only have two scum leads (Caex and myself), I might have expected you to try a little harder to find something useful.
Obviously I'm reading this as you ducking down while we scramble for a lynch, but here's your chance to prove yourself.
I think there was a rock in the dirt you just threw.
There's nothing to do. I've said who I want to lynch ad nauseam and continuing that is only going to make it harder to get a lynch, not easier. I'm just waiting for everyone else to get their **** together so we can actually do something.
I'm not a fan of the "obviously" at the end. Too self-conscious.
Explain why I felt like it was two townies fighting, or explain why I think your case on Wessel is bad?
The latter.
I deleted the strategy fight because it was verging on "I think X, you think Y". I still think his tactics don't match his stated strategy, but we're getting nowhere.
The feeling I felt was more alike a sort of suffocation by the fact that I was again in this situation where someone (ZDS in Meg's, you here) was trying to get me on everything I'm saying.
This reads like victimization to me. He's not being questioned, he's being "suffocated".
As I made that post, that's the feeling I increasingly got from you. As I said, I had not written that as I started the post, but it was something that came to me halfway. But I felt it would have been out of place right between answers on different matters, so I just chose to post it on the top, as a sort of sign that I was both annoyed by your constant attempts at trying to find fault in my posts, and that I felt you were scum. I mean, to be honest, I didn't try to implicitly call you scum at that point. I just flat-out called you scum.
Liar.
Let's check the tape.
Quote from Wessel, #381 »
You know, you remind me of ZeDorkSlipeur in Megiddo's Avatar Mini. There scumZDS also attacked me because I hadn't explained something in full right at the beginning, and then accused me of making things up as I went on. And then when I explained everything fully, I was attacked for explaining too much. And eventually lynched.
Read the entire post if you like. You never accused me directly of being scum, or anything one could even possibly interpret as such. The closest you would come is the quoted implication and an example of "you could be scum doing X or town doing Y" later on.
The entire argument you're proposing works off implication and indirectness, which clashes with what you're saying above (that you directly accused me of being scum there). And if you had, I'd understand that! That would better fit a townie's reaction to feeling like you're being swamped by **** arguments. But all you did was imply I could be scum by analogy - an indirect, shifty argument style, with no kicker of a vote or direct accusation. The fact that you felt the need to pull this thought out and stick it at the top, when it would have served its purpose just fine in the middle, makes it look all the worse?
Why could you have stuck it in the middle? Because you know I'm pretty exhaustive in my response, and I would have responded to it either way. No, you wanted other people to see it. That's the entire crux of this point. You wanted other people to latch onto your point while keeping yourself covered.
This, coupled with the fact that your opinion of me seems to uncannily follow mine of you (see below) makes me confident you're using suspicion of me to try to throw me off, or throw other people on me.
Actually, the whole context of my unvote and the reason I unvoted you was twofold. Firstly for the reason I gave, namely that I feel you're probably honest though misguided. But secondly, and I admit I didn't say that, was because of the fact you said 'You really must be a townie, etc'. One thing that made me think you were scum like ZDS, was because you were constantly trying to find a scum motivation behind everything in the hope of persuading others, to get me lynched. However, that statement by you is completely counter to that, which makes me think you are in fact truthful.
I'm truthful, but apparently I'm scummier than before? (Again, see below.) I can't even follow your argument anymore.
I'm constantly weighing my scum tells on you against the possibility that you're just so paranoid about being "ZDSed" that you'd play this way as town (that is, accuse me of being scum for trying to sort out your honestly misshapen arguments). The latter is of course possible, but it's pieces like the above, and your shifting opinion of the "he's like ZDS" bit, that make me think I have to trust the tells over the possibility your play is bad. (For context, second-guessing bad play made me miss Caex Kothar in Ataghan.)
I meant with 'that's all I wanted to know' that I just wanted that answer from you in order to ask the follow-up question, instead of you misrepping me as you did in the first instance. It was a figure of speech, not actually meaning to say 'That's all I wanted to know and I will have no more questions for you'.
But my point is, why couldn't you just ask "would you be willing to lynch a suspicious cop Day 1 in any hypothetical situation"? Why did it have to be a situation in which I have a null-read on him? Because such a phrasing wouldn't have made your follow-up any less effective.
And you increasingly feel like scum again.
Amazing how your opinion of me seems to closely follow my opinion of you.
DRey, Voxxicus, and... eh. There are a couple of people I'd like to put in the third place position, but I couldn't really pick one to put in front of the others.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
EWP: My summary of events for Seppel:
- According to Xyre, I'm scum for retroactively explaining my trap, whereas I say that's not true.
- Overall I'm conflicted on Xyre. He's trying to put a scum twist on everything I say, but that could come from tunnelvision.
I love (read: hate) that you front-loaded two defense of yourself in your "summary". It's posts like this that make me wonder if you're truly scum or just the most narcissistic, paranoid townie I've ever met.
What examples of DRey's scum play are you citing in developing this case on him, Wessel?
Xyre quoted scumKpaca saying exactly what nowXyre is saying. This is not the careful playingForTheTownXyre I remember from Ataghan.
Did you forget my suspicions that game of Tanarin, Guardman, AsianInvasion (the three of whom I thought were a scum team together, hilariously), DRey (early on), and Cythare? Add that to the people I was on correctly, plus all the people I cased and then forgot about (such as Caex), and then factor in that I did all that in the span of three game days, and you're telling me I was playing carefully?
1) His list of suspects proffered to DRey was Che Guevara and CropCircles, two major lurkers, with no arguments given as to why he'd be willing to lynch those players (or even much of any indication of any suspicion in previous posts at all). This is one of the few times Cyouni's given any opinion whatsoever this game, and the method by which he did so (even tacking on a "this is subject to change" to make the opinion even more fleeting) reflects his general passivity.
I hate giving lists like that (or town/scum lists of any kind) because it doesn't work for how I play - I never actually think about it. Those two given were solely because they have outstanding things to address, and that's why it's subject to change.
But you never said either of those things, nor did you ever directly ask those players for content. You just said, apropos of nothing (and, granted, by implication), you'd like to see them lynched. And I find it curious that those are the two easiest players to accuse of being scum, seeing as they're absent and unresponsive. Care to comment on that?
3) Content issues, specific: Cyouni does not seem to be asking questions designed to elicit whether the player he's questioning is town or scum. This is the same problem with Wessel - asking questions is a great way to look busy while not actually making any ground on anyone or risking exposure. So we need to ask ourselves what's the mindset behind the questions Cyouni asks - what's his overall strategy, and how do these questions serve it tactically.
Anything I see as odd or out of place gets questioned. If it doesn't go further than that, then I don't think there's a point in it going further.
Same thing I've been doing for years.
It's kind of weird, though, that you've been so unsuccessful in finding any matters worth pursuing further. I'd expect someone who's been doing this "for years" to at least have some strong suspects at this point.
Who are your real scum suspects, pray tell? And give specific, cited reasons, please.
DRey, Voxxicus, and... eh. There are a couple of people I'd like to put in the third place position, but I couldn't really pick one to put in front of the others.
This is pretty funny since I've vanished off the list. But I was so scummy before when I was the biggest wagon apparently.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
PART TWO (featuring content which should have been included in part one but Peter Jackson likes money)
Last time on HobbitBall Z:
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
DYH (r. kpaca) - Kpaca was acting town and hasn't been replaced yet.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Needs to say something that can give me a strong read on him.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Said nothing notable.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - Hasn't been participating.
zindabad - No content.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
Docs generally are more trustworthy for two reasons: (a) if they don't get promptly nightkilled, you can't just write that fact off to a lucky doc protection, and (b) a false-claimed doc is harder to fake and riskier.
I voted originally because I was thinking he was scum and wanted to see more. I started prioritizing around with my reads and getting responses to solidify that (because I was also debating whether to start pushing for DRey or you). His statement had felt genuine to me and I was okay with trusting my gut on a town tell on an inexperienced player if I had better cases to go on. Those other cases are only compelling with an alignment flip though. I didn't need to unvote because the Caex case is still very good and a gut tell doesn't measure up to it. The claim is bad enough that I'm ready to end the day on Caex.
I still don't follow. You had a gut townread on Caex, but a case scumread on Caex?
I haven't read the past ~17 posts good enough yet, but I'm just making a quick post before going to bed to say it makes no sense for scum to claim to be unprotectable. They want to draw the protect.
Or maybe Caex is lying about half his role and truthful about the other half. Hm. Got to sleep on it.
Can you elaborate on why you stated that the game was boring and that no one else was making the game advance?
Well, because it was? I started right off the bat with my little gambit to hopefully rustle some feathers and that worked quite well but a bit after that the game felt stagnated and stale, this combined with the fact that three or so guys weren't playing (and still aren't) made the game unfun imho.
@ Stardust: The reason to fear cop claims is (a) they're easy for the mafia to fake, (b) they have a chance of outing the real cop inadvertently, and (c) they scare the town because it could be they're true. Docs generally are more trustworthy for two reasons: (a) if they don't get promptly nightkilled, you can't just write that fact off to a lucky doc protection, and (b) a false-claimed doc is harder to fake and riskier.
How can you say that with a straight face Xyre? You are lying through your teeths.
You're never going to respond to me, are you, DRey?
Already did a long time ago, but I can do it again for your pleasure: I can't prove what I don't believe myself, I never thought your walls with Zion were fake because I never read them. Now your turn, answer my question, why are you voting me?
So wait, you accused me of being fake with Zionite despite... not having read the walls to begin with?
At this point, you're either ludicrously overconfident or you're scum. Ugh. I need to go reread Ataghan.
"I need to go reread ____" needs to be on a universally accepted list of scumtells. If you were really interested in rereading, you'd do it, or if there's not enough time, say that you will.
I want to vig him simply because: (a) I don't trust him and doubt I will trust any results he provides, until he's dead; (b) consequently don't trust to see what he might turn up tomorrow - call me paranoid; (c) consequently want to see him dead; (d) figure even if he may or may not be nightkilled, I want to cover my bases, and don't trust to leave open the possibility of failure; and (e) want to pick a lynch too.
I can see the argument for lynching Caex and shooting DRey; I just prefer vice-versa.
There's something big missing here, and that is: the reason why Caex should be killed now. You're talking about that you wouldn't trust his results and consequently want him dead. But why kill him now and not, say, round about D3 when he has at least had the chance to do some Night actions? You say you wouldn't trust him anyway so we can just as well kill him now. But if we kill him now, he'll not be able to investigate anyone anyway (if he's truthful). While if we leave him alive, if he's truthful, he will at least give us some investigations. And then later, if we decide to lynch him anyway (or if the mafia NKs him), we'll know if he was being truthful or not, hence we would be able to trust his investigations.
Now I can only see one actual reason to kill him now and that is because of the possibility that he might have a mafia power role. (Though TBH, that's true for everyone.)
But you never say that. It's like you know he's cop and are making up arguments from that viewpoint, like 'I wouldn't trust his results anyway' to just kill him now, while not even coming up with actual arguments to kill him.
I get the whole "I want to lead the town" vibe you push but not claiming means you have something to hide and on top of that I don't care for meta.
And this is a worthless statement. Everyone in a game of Mafia has something to hide.
Jesus Zindabad it takes like 10 seconds to include a link with a post.. You could even just do it with the most important ones so they have more weight. This is like unwrapping christmas presents but they're all the same 8" x 8" x 8" brown box.
And then you don't even see the candy inside.
Zionite is bugging me.
/disagree on Wessel's post. Magical Girl Mafia was a very unique game. Also I believe I remember the pressure coming up on DRey very fast (like he replaced in and was suddenly under fire with a deadline going on). Correct me if I'm wrong; not going to bother slogging through that game.
I'm not sure if I have explicitly stated this or not, but:
Though I think Caex's play has been terrible, I am against lynching him today or calling the vig to hit him tonight.
Ahhhh.... this is so bad
The information gained will be worth it, we need it.
Unvote
I believe DRey's claim over Caex's, but please don't be ignorant and not listen to the towns request and just shoot who you think it best.
This is interesting now. Let DRey shoot Caex or lynch him? I don't know if I would trust DRey to even listen to the town and shoot Caex.
Explain to me exactly what information will be gained from lynching the claimed cop D1. Are you that arrogant that you aren't considering the possibility that you are wrong and he is the cop? Consider for a second that he is telling the truth about his role and imagine how terrible of a situation the town will be in if we lose the cop D1 with no investigations.
We will have MORE information by not lynching him. If he's town and manages to live to D2, we have an investigation. If he's scum and manages to live to D2, we get him claiming an investigation on someone. Either way, he's offering himself up as the lynch tomorrow to prove himself. Why not wait and see if he's telling the truth instead of killing him before we get any information?
Imagine if there was no scum! Imagine if there was only 1!. I'm not imagining anything because the claim was scummy and his posts haven't helped him being town. If we wait until day 2 and lynch him then its honestly a waste of town resources and time. We need to move on away from the distraction and it will be in the back of our minds the entire time.
Doc protect would keep him from dying, redirector used on whoever makes the mafia kill, or a bodyguard blocking the kill would all be ways that he lives to D2 even if the mafia try to kill him. Saying that if he lives he must be scum is false dichotomy. Yes, we should operate on the assumption that the mafia will TRY to kill him, but that's not to say he will BE killed by them. There is no reason to kill him today when we could get more information by lynching him tomorrow.
WIFOM.
Hyperbole in the first paragraph. Also the first time I've ever seen Che talk to WoLG.
Explain to me how lynching the vig (which is a confirmable town exclusive role)
...
Wessel has snappy answers.
I don't know if Xyre is trying to exonerate DRey or convict him in this post. It's all over the place.
Wessel's next post is a little more confidence-insipring, except for this point:
"Caex claimed to be cop. If he really is a cop, I would expect him to be actively trying to see who would be good investigation targets. However, if he's scum and falseclaimed, I would expect him to either say something like 'Why would you ask this!?!', or illogical targets, or feign a good answer. It was a question more to see if he was scum rather than to see if he was town."
@Wessel: How in the world would you expect to divine the difference between a townie seeing "who would be good investigation targets" and a scum "feign[ing] a good answer?"
Additionally, provided Caex is truthful, it pretty much confirms a doc and a roleblocker. But then again, there is Wessel's newsletter.
Xyre replies to the above answer by Wessel with this:
Caex claimed to be cop. If he really is a cop, I would expect him to be actively trying to see who would be good investigation targets. However, if he's scum and falseclaimed, I would expect him to either say something like 'Why would you ask this!?!', or illogical targets, or feign a good answer. It was a question more to see if he was scum rather than to see if he was town.
That doesn't make sense. You do realize, if he claimed whom he'd investigate (assuming he's telling the truth about being the cop), the mafia could just shoot his target? Not only would that make his results worthless, but it would likely doom Caex, because he'd be helpless to the correct observation that he could have used the "convenient" death of his target to hide his lack of a true investigative role if he were scum.
I can't tell if that problem with your original question never occurred to you, or you're trying to defend Caex by lobbing a softball, so to speak.
So, what, you just hope the scum get lucky and shoot one of the three people Caex named?
Wessel's comparison of Xyre to ZDS reads as accurate to me. I'm also noticing that Wessel is the second person with which Xyre's got into a battle of words.
blah blah blah whoa wait a vote on Wessel
The way Wessel rages is much different than us. In fact, his idea of being active is a lot more passive than we see as active. There's nothing here.
Xyre's idea about what to do with Caex is ridiculous. Just wait until D2 and see what happens. I can't imagine a ballsy enough scumteam that would let Caex live. Yanni isn't in the game; Iso isn't in this game; Shalako isn't in this game. I'm the closest to a Johnny player we have in this game, and even I would kill Caex tonight.
Xyre tries to dissuade DRey again.
This game is a freaking gauntlet, compressed into 8 pages.
@Wessel: "But could you tell me now what your current read is on Caex, kpaca, and CropCircles? Oh, and while you're at it, could you also give us your read on WellOfLostGnomes, Che Guevara and Zionite?"
I remember someone in a recent game asking something exactly like that. But I can't remember who or which game it was. Was it you?
God Zindabad get it together.
Shoot these lurkers.
god text walls can someone else please freaking post?
Oh yay Cyouni's posting... a bunch of questions. Really? No independent thoughts after all that?
2.) We can't even come to a consensus about who is scummy enough to lynch today, so how could we come up with a second target to kill tonight?
This reads like seeding woes and generally reducing the town morale.
However, I still have good feelings about WoLG, and the vote on Che is great.
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Reading each of Stardust's posts individually makes him look like he's coming out of nowhere, but if you read them in order, you see how his stream of consciousness flows. He's kind of like Void. Each time I think he's saying something out of nowhere, it makes sense from his mindset.
The only thing that bugs me is that he just sort of accepted Kpaca's non-answer and he never brought it up again. Reads like buddies trying to start a conversation but having it fall flat, but neither Kpaca nor Stardust are on my radar.
oh hi DYH
Wessel says: "Let's just leave it at I have a feeling but I can't prove it. Ok?" I approve.
If DRey were showing overwhelming scumminess, I'd say "lynch the toughguy," but DRey has appeared quite town, and the DRey wagon was filled with flimsy votes.
@Stardust: Mathematically, it's a free half-lynch. But I approve of the sentiment.
Hmm. Stardust's post came in just when I submitted my post. I have to say, Stardust, you seem to have a good eye on everything.
Is your first paragraph there sarcastic?
First thought is self-deprecation. Town.
Agree with everything DYH said except I disagree about Wessel being "passive."
Oh hey Stardust noticed the same thing I did. Note that it is characteristic for Cyouni to ask questions, but the ratio of questions-to-content here is getting ridiculous.
Oh yay, Cyouni posted stuff that wasn't questions. ...and none of it is relevant.
Ooh, a T/S list from Xyre. In depth shows potential info in the mid-range read of Che, and the positioning of wanting to lynch Wessel before Cyouni.
@Stardust: I see you're learning what "half-a-lynch" is.
Oh hi Seppel.
@Zionite: How is everyone reading DRey as town? Even Wessel says in the very next post that he thinks DRey is scum. I like a Che lynch. Also that was a terrible summary; prepare your mouth.
@Wessel: You will usually find a killing ability in a mini. What's with the smiley face?
@DRey: Well wishes.
@Caex: That's the whole point. You didn't make any sort of comparison between townStardust and scumStardust. Also, that's true, you didn't see anything wrong with Stardust in Giant Robot. So just break it down for me in one paragraph to make it easy on me: Why do you think Stardust is scum?
'Breaking the game open' feels forced, for lack of a better word. In the same way that people adding 'because I'm town' after everything they say does. It's just a little more subtle than that, I guess.
Weak.
Also, the mud is thrown with favoritism. Zindabad said this in his big post:
I feel that if Caex is speaking the truth about being unroleblockable, this is a power heavy game. Therefore I'm pretty sure that the Mafia, assuming there are three of them, have at least two PRs. Meaning, if DRey is one of them, there's a pretty big chance he has a PR. But that's just speculation, and I can't fault you for not willing to lynch him just on the off-chance he has a PR.
This is probably the worst thing I've seen you post. It literally has no point.
Oh hey, how about a quick updated T/S list before I go. Colors may be a bit wonky since I'm on an 8-color connection.
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
DYH/Kpaca - Kpaca was acting town and DYH is good.
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Need answers.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Need content.
zindabad - One post of content. Voxx favoritism.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - As Che, bad participation, mindset is off, and he called Caex the cop. Voxx's entrance was mud.
You're on the list. You're one of the people I'd put in third place.
Do you think DRey is lying about being the vig? What gives you that impression?
What has Voxxicus done that makes you think he's scum?
I think DRey is lying about being the vig in that he's scum. He consistently misrepresented things I said when he was trying to get me lynched. At one point he literally just made something up to smear me. Town doesn't just pull bull**** out of thin air to attack someone.
I was suspicious of Che. Voxxicus hasn't done anything to change my mind. Che was trying to active lurk; he'd show up, post stuff with no explanation or usefulness, then vanish again.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Docs generally are more trustworthy for two reasons: (a) if they don't get promptly nightkilled, you can't just write that fact off to a lucky doc protection, and (b) a false-claimed doc is harder to fake and riskier.
That doesn't even make sense.
Put parts 1 and 2 together: claiming as doctor is riskier because there are fewer things that could go wrong. If they survive the night, they're likely scum; if they don't, they're likely town. With cops, the results are WIFOM and the doc is a complicating element. That make sense?
No it isn't. "Tooth" is singular, "Teeth" is plural.
Oh, duh. What I meant was "teeths" is not a word.
...and that was Xyre's response to DRey's post above.
HANDWAVE AWAY
I didn't respond to him because what should I say to someone who says "you're lying". "No, I'm not"?
You're never going to respond to me, are you, DRey?
Already did a long time ago, but I can do it again for your pleasure: I can't prove what I don't believe myself, I never thought your walls with Zion were fake because I never read them. Now your turn, answer my question, why are you voting me?
So wait, you accused me of being fake with Zionite despite... not having read the walls to begin with?
At this point, you're either ludicrously overconfident or you're scum. Ugh. I need to go reread Ataghan.
"I need to go reread ____" needs to be on a universally accepted list of scumtells. If you were really interested in rereading, you'd do it, or if there's not enough time, say that you will.
But not that you need to do it.
You're oversimplifying the language matter. The implication of needing to reread Ataghan is that I need the information to better assess DRey's play.
You read a town game of DRey's in 10 minutes and you're trying to compare it to this one. Weak.
I was in that game, remember? I didn't actually need to read the entire thing. I wanted to remind myself what happened to DRey late Day 2/early Day 3.
So, what, you just hope the scum get lucky and shoot one of the three people Caex named?
No, I mean we give him three names, he secretly chooses one of them at random and submits it.
Xyre's idea about what to do with Caex is ridiculous. Just wait until D2 and see what happens. I can't imagine a ballsy enough scumteam that would let Caex live. Yanni isn't in the game; Iso isn't in this game; Shalako isn't in this game. I'm the closest to a Johnny player we have in this game, and even I would kill Caex tonight.
Except the plan doesn't cost us anything and gives us some peace of mind, right? What's wrong with it?
Explain why I felt like it was two townies fighting, or explain why I think your case on Wessel is bad?
The latter.
Okay, I'm happy to do this, but you'll have to help me out if you want a more detailed answer. I've read every single one of your massive posts and each time have come away unimpressed. I know he asks a lot of questions, but I've been reading him as being more engaged than you give him credit for, and most importantly engaged in a townie kind of way, if that makes sense. Your latest post talking about the positioning of his comparison of you to ZDS was more compelling than anything else I can remember you posting.
But that's my problem. I can't remember. It's become too big for me to keep it all in mind for a proper reply. I went back and tried to reread, but it's just too painful. If you could please give a summary of your case (less than 300 words), I'd be happy to talk about my view on it point by point. Even just some bullets to jog my memory would be great.
Explain why I felt like it was two townies fighting, or explain why I think your case on Wessel is bad?
The latter.
Okay, I'm happy to do this, but you'll have to help me out if you want a more detailed answer. I've read every single one of your massive posts and each time have come away unimpressed. I know he asks a lot of questions, but I've been reading him as being more engaged than you give him credit for, and most importantly engaged in a townie kind of way, if that makes sense. Your latest post talking about the positioning of his comparison of you to ZDS was more compelling than anything else I can remember you posting.
But that's my problem. I can't remember. It's become too big for me to keep it all in mind for a proper reply. I went back and tried to reread, but it's just too painful. If you could please give a summary of your case (less than 300 words), I'd be happy to talk about my view on it point by point. Even just some bullets to jog my memory would be great.
Maybe a response to my case would be a good start.
@Seppel: I have a surprise for you involving a katana duel. I'm liking your read on Xyre and Che. I thought lynching Che would be the best possible lynch to hit scum today, but I'm not sure how I feel about putting a bunch of pressure on Voxx since he just joined the game.
I'm glad AI extended the deadline, he said he would if activity increased.
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@WoLG: Whether it's "fair" to put pressure on Voxx is irrelevant to his alignment. As Zionite said, we have time. There are still three(?) more days of D1, and it's his choice how he uses those resources.
@Xyre: What are you trying to pull? Doc is the easiest falseclaim ever. A cop falseclaim is tough to push through, and falseclaiming Caex's role would take massive balls.
If you really needed to reread 10 minutes of Ataghan (minus the, what, 2 - 3 it took to post, and minus a couple of minutes to find the late Day2/Night3 posts because Zindabad didn't put in waypoints in the OP!), then you would've just done it instead of *****ed about it for two posts before finally going to do it.
And your plan costs us a vig shot and an investigation. How is that peace of mind?
192 (Xyre): The "meta question" in this post felt a little off-kilter. Why ask him to identify his own meta, saying you don't care if it's his town or scum meta? 195 (Caex): I have to decide if I'm just tunneling on this guy or if everything he says is actually so scummy. The first part of this post made me cringe. "My townieness will become self-evident" is straight out of the Scum's Guide to Appearing Townie quotebook. In 196, however, he brings up a good point about Zionite's response to DRey's gambit. 197 (Zionite): Reading from the same song sheet as Caex with the "my townieness will become apparent" line. Do not like. We also have "you're better than that" - it's like scum bingo. 204 (Xyre): This case pretty much collates all of the myriad twinges I've felt while reading Caex's posts. I see from trying to keep up a bit at the other end that Caex is still on the menu at the end of the day - good. 214 (Caex): Would love to hear an explanation about how a townie's reaction to getting a cop role is "hey, I'm unlynchable!" Za za. 227 (Cyouni): Not sure if I misunderstand this post, but it looks like you're saying Caex's behavior is consistent with how an unclaimed cop would play, which is of course a load of cobblers that makes me suspicious of you. 230 (Stardust): Not crazy about the excuse-me language in this one. "Feeling a little bit unsure"..."I don't think"..."Is this the best choice"..."I'm not sure"..."We'll see"..."Make sure we're not making a mistake." We get it. You're not 100% convinced. 236 (Caex): Not getting it. How could you come back D2 and say "sorry I got RB'ed" when you, you know, can't be RB'ed? 242 (Zionite): That...doesn't sound like a noob mindset at all. Noobs don't disregard attacks on themselves, they panic. 245 (kpaca): So I'm guessing you missed the part where he said he can't be roleblocked? 259 (DRey): How does your opinion of Cyouni's post change knowing now that, nearly 250 posts later, "on the verge of a lynch" Caex is still alive? You do have an excellent point about leaving Caex alive, having someone watch him, and netting either a cop investigation or a free scum - but that's contingent on us having a watcher at all and that watcher being town. 268 (Caex): So how is DRey not on the menu for a cop investigation because he'll "sort [him]self", but by the end of the post, you're voting him? This looks like rank opportunism - you see a wagon developing on DRey and you immediately try to follow its momentum (off yourself.) 273 (Stardust): This is what a vote on DRey should look like and just highlights the insincerity in Caex's post above. CC makes a decent argument for leaving Caex alive and not vigging him overnight, but I really am feeling a bit of a yearn to destroy him. 280 (Wessel): Thoughts on Caex? Not sure you have discussed his claim at all. 297 (DRey): Combined with other posts he's been making around this timeframe, I think DRey is losing the plot a bit. He has absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, on Xyre. I can't conceive that even DRey would be stubborn enough, as town, to repeatedly insist that one of his interlocutors is scum when giving no evidence at all, and in fact not even trying to engage that player (hence not reading his "walls.") 302 (Xyre): Seeing Xyre stick to the "vig Caex" plan despite objections from CC, Zionite, and WoLG is giving me a bit of a twinge. It's a bad plan. Either we lynch him or we don't - if we don't, it's because we're going into night looking for a result from him, WIFOM-laden as that result will be. 305 (DRey): "Have you ever seen a townie with convictions before"? Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now. 311 (Caex): Yes, press the attack, you scumzilla. Must be nice to have such an easy target to hide behind, right? 317 (Caex): That still isn't adding up. The question is why you planned on acting scummy/forthright enough to draw a roleblock. Your answer says "I thought the scum would RB me to get an easy mislynch"...but why would the scum expect an unclaimed player to get mislynched just for saying they got RB'ed? I re-read that and it looks unclear, so I'm going to format it a bit better:
- You're being asked why you acted so reckless as the (unclaimed) cop.
- You answer it's because you were trying to draw a roleblock so it could be nullified by your passive.
- When asked why the scum wouldn't just kill you instead, you said they wouldn't kill you when they could "2-for-1" you by roleblocking you.
- The problem with this is that that scum plan makes no sense as long as you aren't claimed. The scum have no reasonable expectation that you will get mislynched just for claiming a roleblock...unless you are already scummy and have claimed cop.
- In other words, what I'm trying to say is that your explanation is after the fact and is actually a load of nonsense. Your reason for playing recklessly in the first 200 or so posts was not actually to draw a roleblock.
I typed out a lot for this one post but with good reason - the reactions of the other players to this fallacious claptrap says it all. 337 (DRey): But now, after all of that, we actually have to lynch DRey after all. 344 (Zionite): Hating this post.
I know that doesn't really suffice but I'll have to finish later. In the unlikely event that I don't finish before deadline, here is my vote: DRey.
Before I answer this loaded question, let's clarify: a 1-shot vig != Vigilante. This is the part you do not seem to be understanding.
Now, to answer your point, scum are generally going to false-claim cop before vig. The former could net them a counter-claim of the town's most powerful role. The latter could get them killed by the town vigilante. More below:
If I get time, I'll do that. I'm more concerned about Wessel's absurd over-reaction to Xyre's comment on his playstyle. Yes, "vehement".
Let me get this straight - you think I'm betraying you because I don't buy your 1-shot vig = confirmed town theory, even though I think you're town anyway?
Mind. Blown.
Here.
"Balanced" could be argued, but it has been done here (with a drawback). I'm sure it's been done on MafiaScum, but I'm not searching through those.
Also, it's not exactly the same, but Highlander Mafia had a role where when Cyan died, he became a one-shot SK.
There's also a scenario where you have a 2-man mafia (with a tough guy), a neutral survivor, vs. 9 townies could exist. But I digress.
Yes, because it isn't totally obvious where you're going with those questions. C'mon, DRey.
No argument here.
It's Kpaca. I can't even begin to speak for his actions.
I'm not exactly high on Xyre, either. I made it pretty clear why I'm voting Che. There's a week left, and I don't feel like having a wall of text battle with Xyre when I'm pretty sure Che is scum. I also need to read said walls of text in more detail, and I couldn't knock all that out in a few hours today.
BZZZ. (see how annoying that is?)
Yeah, he's not a newbie. He referred to "I hate when people use meta arguments" early on. He's experienced. And he's done nothing productive.
Yep, although I suspect that isn't what you had in mind.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
This is subject to change.
Why so blasé about it? If you felt he was behaving like ZDS, ie. like scum, then why so unconcerned? Why are you saying it like you don't care about it?
So is "looks like ZDS" the only reason you have as to why Xyre is scummy?
As a note, the behaviour I was referring to was in CCMIV, from AsianInvasion.
I've been feeling pretty meh recently, partially due to being sick followed immediately by exams.
Past three months: two games with toughguys. And that's just games I've been in.
Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it's impossible.
And if I actually felt like it, I'm more than sure I could find a toughguy in a Mini.
First, paragraphs exist.
Second, balance issues. It completely counters the "follow-the-cop" tendency.
Third, you really consider giving the scum information about all three town power roles in a Basic equivalent to giving a townie information about one town and one scum role? Not remotely alike.
Fourth, if your "bastard design" lines were actually true, Godfather, bulletproof, Ninjas, and probably other things I can't immediately think of would all be "bastard design". They all fall under "you did something correctly but it doesn't matter".
DRey - DRey's arrogant, and his play has been all over the place, but his play makes me reasonably confident he's town. The more I think about it, the less I feel it likely he's a mafia extra kill - of course there's an outside chance, but his play increasingly seems inconsistent with a scum killer. (The only thing that comes to mind that might suggest otherwise was his weird reversal on counter-claiming Caex.)
Zionite - Zionite's play has been better since our many bouts, and I admit my case was more threadbare than I thought. Meh.
DYH (r. kpaca) - I don't really know how to read kpaca, tbh, but he did seem pretty genuine in finding scum suspects later on. DYH's last couple of post were pretty good, I felt.
WellofLostGnomes - Reads pretty genuine to me. I don't know if I agree with him on Che, but I recognize his reasoning and the tells he identifies. Curious whom else he suspects.
Stardust - I think Stardust is a newb. I want more time to assess him, per usual. (I find that newer players require larger data sets to suss out their motivations.)
CropCircles - CropCircles is a known lurker, so his lack of major content isn't a revelation. He picked out Caex early and his arguments were reasonable there. I think his opinions are well-reasoned generally, though there's the occasional line that bugs me. Overall, this is a player I want more information from before I feel comfortable making a stronger read - especially because most of his content is about DRey and Caex.
Che Guevara - Uh... so far, most of Che's posts were given over to the Caex and DRey show and aren't really indicative (supporting killing both of them is a position scum could hold just fine). I think there are points where he's a little too bloodthirsty even for my taste (like 347), but again it's hard to say whether he's just going full speed toward seeing DRey and Caex killed because he knows something we don't, or that's just his style. There are a few other posts that piqued my curiosity, but nothing definitive. Really, he just needs to be prodded/replaced, as he's been gone a week.
Caex - Plenty has been said about Caex, so I'll save myself the trouble of rehashing. Suffice it to say, he's not the lynch for today, so long as we can come up with a battle plan for his night.
zindabad - Lurking hard. He's only made one post of content, and it's a doozy - or at least, it appears to be. But looking back over 314/315, I notice he doesn't draw a lot of strong conclusions, I feel. He picks out one scum suspect - Caex - but note that this fell after Caex had been dragged up to L-2 and claimed, so no points for that. The playstyle zinda reminds me of right now is Wrath of DoG's famous "apologies and PBPAs" scum meta. I'll go take a look at zinda's play in recent scum games. Obviously, this read is contingent upon his promised follow-up, but honestly the longer it takes, and the longer he doesn't just say something about the current action, the more I feel like he's begging off to buy himself some time to formulate a stance.
Wessel - Wessel's play is all over the map. I feel confident that that's less a reflection of his stated difficulty with strategy and more an attempt to justify mistaken play. He especially seems sensitive to the amount of pressure I put on his wagon - implicitly calling me scum when I'm targeting him more strongly, then abruptly calling me probable town when I show a hint of pulling back. It's either a case of Reverse-OMGUS, or an attempt to pacify me.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Cyouni's doing the lurking-in-plain-sight strat.
Points against him:
For my next two points, I'll refer you to the five content posts in question: 274, 332, 373, 402, 437
2) Content issues, general: Cyouni's made 8 posts. Of those 8, three of them had (essentially) no new content (one was a reminder to Caex to answer some questions, and two related to not being able to post - one of which, it's worth noting, did contain a throwaway comment on Caex's behavior).
Of the other five (mind, this is over two weeks of play), Cyouni asks a lot of questions to many random people, but he rarely follows up on his questions (minus the Caex exchange from the first three posts, he only has follow-up questions in his fifth and most recent post), suggesting generally he's poking around at the fringes, trying to find something of note. Which is weak play, but not necessarily scummy play, except
3) Content issues, specific: Cyouni does not seem to be asking questions designed to elicit whether the player he's questioning is town or scum. This is the same problem with Wessel - asking questions is a great way to look busy while not actually making any ground on anyone or risking exposure. So we need to ask ourselves what's the mindset behind the questions Cyouni asks - what's his overall strategy, and how do these questions serve it tactically.
The Caex series is particularly notable - Cyouni prods at Caex's strategy, but basically his arguments just boil down to "wouldn't you just get killed" - not doubting Caex, just quibbling with him. It goes nowhere, and it just fizzles. Cyouni doesn't even attempt to take the extra step of suggesting Caex might be fronting with the entire claim. It's just a weird angle to be pursuing. And it all just peters out by the fourth post, with Caex just giving a meek "alright" to Caex.
But that serves Cyouni's five posts. He makes no votes; he critiques logic, but never considers its implications or intentions; and in short, he's just not here at all.
I get he's been sick, but this feels different than "too sick to post" - he's clearly reading the thread, but he seems surprisingly uninquisitive for someone making posts full of questions. Much like for Wessel, I think this is a ploy.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
His scummy play and his claim led me to believe that he was either:
1.) Regular mafia member
2.) Serial Killer/ 1 shot SK.
3.) Mafia 1 shot killer
all hoping to cover his kill with 1 shot vig claim, or draw out a CC from the real vig and kill them tonight.
This is going to sound a bit crazy considering my earlier stance, so bear with me.
I'm now fairly convinced DRey is town, and is telling the truth about his ability. His responses seem genuine and that type of conviction in his own alignment is not easily faked. I'm sure that when he shoots and his kill flavor is different from the mafia kill, we will all feel a bit better about him. I also think that we have enough possible scum targets to warrant him deciding if he wants to shoot, and who he wants to shoot, on his own.
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Explain why I felt like it was two townies fighting, or explain why I think your case on Wessel is bad?
"Note for later". I don't trust DRey, but I'm willing to give him the chance at a shot. If he later flips scum (for example, if the real vig kills him), that post will look pretty bad on CC. I didn't want to forget that.
Aside from that, your case on Cyouni is somewhat compelling. His questions looked to me like he was staying involved and prodding people, but reading him again now, you're right that there's really little substance there - no follow-up and no really good questions. Ugh, I hate having six scum reads though. Probably means the claims are true...
1) Zionite
2) Che Guevara
3) Cyouni (better than CropCircles at this point, I think)
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I hate giving lists like that (or town/scum lists of any kind) because it doesn't work for how I play - I never actually think about it. Those two given were solely because they have outstanding things to address, and that's why it's subject to change.
Anything I see as odd or out of place gets questioned. If it doesn't go further than that, then I don't think there's a point in it going further.
Same thing I've been doing for years.
The "options" as you're calling them were my original theories about DRey's actual role/alignment. The part you're leaving out of your quote is that I now believe DRey is being truthful about his role/alignment. I originally did not believe that when he shot, if indeed he actually could shoot, his possible kill would look different from the mafia kill or appear town flavored.
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His meta (what I've read of it anyway) is similar to how he's posting here. Short and sweet. I think he's generally been more involved in his previous games rather than just making commentary like he was early in this game, and I don't think there's much excuse for his aggression towards the Caex lynch.
So, the answer is that I took a brief look at it to see if his kpaca-lite style is normal, and it is. Other than that, his meta gives very little to work with, so I'll continue to call scum as I see it.
You're willing to lynch them based solely on having outstanding issues to address? Scum can answer questions too, so this doesn't seem very effective. How do you decide who's town or scum if you never think about it?
You misunderstand. I refused to answer your first question because I didn't feel like giving you an out for a question I wanted answered. The remainder of that section was entirely in answer to your second question. I wanted to know why you asked because I generally don't like pouring reads into a thread for no reason. So I assumed you had a reason.
Xyre was a strong town read early on and an experienced player. Unless there was something that just clicked and gave me some certainty that he was scum, I wasn't going to feel good about supporting his lynch today. That's why I named him specifically with regards to DRey. That wasn't to say that I'd be going after a DRey lynch no matter what, just that I doubted I'd be going after Xyre instead. Most importantly, at the time I'd either forgotten or hadn't yet read that DRey claimed vig. That changed a lot, obviously.
Follow-up question: What do Caex, kpaca, CropCircles, WellOfLostGnomes, Che Guevara and Zionite have to do with Xyre vs. DRey?
That "you're funny" came shortly after I'd read your requirement that everyone sign their name in their next post. I laughed at that. No deeper meaning there at all.
If the answer is, "I wanted reads to go off of after I kill you," that's okay, you know. If I'm the lynch today I'll help in any way I can.
The game going longer also gives the mafia more nightkills. But anyway, it's unlikely that a random kill would even shorten the game right now.
Let's assume that DRey is town and the only player in the game with a kill ability (if he's telling the truth, I think that's quite likely). To make it simple, let's also assume that there are three scum and that every kill kills a townie.
Lynch DRey
Day 1 start (9 town - 3 scum)
Day 1 lynch (8 - 3)
Night 1 (7 - 3)
Day 2 lynch (6 - 3)
Night 2 (5 - 3)
Day 3 lynch (4 - 3)
Night 3 (3 - 3) WE LOSE!
Don't Lynch DRey
Day 1 start (9 town - 3 scum)
Day 1 lynch (8 - 3)
Night 1 (6 - 3)
Day 2 lynch (5 - 3)
Night 2 (4 - 3)
Day 3 lynch (3 - 3) WE LOSE!
So either way we lose at the end of Day 3. DRey's kill doesn't lengthen the game at all. Though I guess I'm also assuming that any doc protections fail as well...
Anyway, even if my assumptions are incorrect, your same logic can be applied to advocate for a nolynch, which is obviously a terrible idea. The game going longer doesn't necessarily help the town. We want to control as many kills as possible.
DRey's been pretty scummy, but it's hard to imagine that we'll have more than one killer in a 12 player game. I want to give him the chance to prove himself.
Umm, three times as likely. Che's pretty scummy and certainly not putting in as much effort as I am. My name's been tossed around, I guess, but I'm doing my best to work for the town here, so I hope that's enough to prove myself. I haven't felt too pressured so far when the only person voting me is my primary scum lead.
One last thing! I know it's possible that DRey is scum with an extra shot, but how probable is it? Please give approximate chances (percentage) for these three scenarios:
1) DRey is town vig.
2) DRey scum.
3) DRey is scum with an extra shot.
DRey (2): Xyre, Caex Kothar
Caex Kothar (2): Seppel, Zionite
Voxxicus (2): WellOfLostGnomes, DYH
Xyre (1): DRey
WellOfLostGnomes (1): zindabad
Not Voting (4): Cyouni, Wessel, Stardust, Voxxicus
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Saturday, April 27th (less than four days from this post).
Effective immediately, Seppel replaces CropCircles and Voxxicus replaces Che Guevera.
First person to give me a good summary of events while I'm reading gets townie points or else I will **** your face.
Not going to try to lynch the replacement for a scummy predecessor.
Now we have 2 replacements 4 days before a deadline. I suppose I'll go take a look at Cy in detail.
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@Wessel: I do want the first two questions answered.
So your thoughts on his kill flavour reflect what you believe his alignment to be?
I'm pretty sure that list was for "top 3 suspects".
Me declaring someone scum/town is solely due to if their stories line up with their mindset or not. There's the phrase "the devil is in the details". It's not an easy task to create a deception in which everything falls into place. The truth is far easier. Not to mention the fact that no one can actually spare the time or effort to go through every inch of their lie and have it make sense.
Any read coming from scum is inherently a lie, as they know who's town. Find inconsistencies, and you find scum. (Or people who have a mental condition that allows that, as once occurred.) It also requires a look at their mindset to see whether it fits or not. So my parameter's not town-scum, it's inconsistencies-none.
Do not like the question mark at the end.
DRey's first post reminds me of how I acted in Magical Girl Mafia:
A scumKpaca is caught when it starts lurking.
Oh hey compare the next two quotes:
Xyre quoted scumKpaca saying exactly what nowXyre is saying. This is not the careful playingForTheTownXyre I remember from Ataghan.
I like you.
...but you're not very attentive to detail.
I thought this guy was a Kpaca gimmick.
WoLG had better post some substance.
OH HI AGAIN
Good pressure vote, mediocre conclusion.
Please tell me what great meaning DRey's vote has.
Except they were good, and you weren't aggressive.
This is a terrible reason to unilaterally lynch DRey.
NOPE
YES
kpaca is being an ass
Explain please.
What case?
Where did Stardust come from?
What games have you seen scumStardust? I have yet to play with a scumStardust. How does it differ from a townStardust?
Not buying it.
Fellow Giant Robot player checking in. I support the fact that Stardust slipped left and right. It made it so hard to believe he was town.
Stardust is likely town, Caex is likely scum.
Not buying it.
Zionite is pro.
What is preventing both Caex and Xyre from being scum?
Getting mad that he's caught.
@Caex: I'm vouching for Stardust, but what sort of slips are you seeing here? I don't see any. You yourself said your case was on gut so what is this about slips now?
I know you are incredibly prone to foot-in-mouth syndrome so I'm giving you a chance to calm down and walk me through your thought processes.
@Xyre: I've read your case, but this just doesn't read like the Zionite from Cyberspace Mafia, for example. He actually has meaning behind his votes and he's not trying to cover his ass.
Also what's up with the coaching line? Do you know whether scum have daytalk? Without knowing that, your accusation here is quite baseless. Do you actually believe DRey is scum or are you just trying to push a case to see where it goes?
I agree that the third-person line is positioning, but I don't see how it's a scum mindset and not a neutral point-of-view.
omg Kpaca made a stance.
Confidence in Kpaca: rising.
Oh my god a Xyre explosion. One town-sounding post does not forgive 5 scum-sounding posts. All that anger is ATEing me out, though.
Okay, I can see people are starting to take sides on the Xyre/Zionite issue.
Kpaca doesn't support the Zionite case.
DRey wants Xyre lynched.
Stardust supports Xyre.
WoLG is staying out of it.
CC sees the same thing I do about Caex.
...and Zionite pulls out.
Oh yay people are voting Caex.
Note to self: Xyre is asking DRey for his opinion of Caex.
@Wessel: Please post something that can make me divine your alignment. The questions aren't particularly strong questions.
Yay Caex wagon. It's not a Xyre wagon but it's the next best thing.
This is the strongest post Caex has made so far. Shirking Kpaca takes a lot of balls.
Stardust is being a good bee.
Your cakes are good but your other dishes are flat.
DRey's T/S list mirrors mine, except exchange Wessel for Kpaca.
I laughed at the Kpaca impression.
It's easy to reply when the argument has broken down to semantics, fallacies, and arguments that aren't your original points.
Oh yay more Caex. His defenses are good because he's defending weak arguments.
God, this is only page 4? You people load your posts so well. I was expecting to have this game reviewed by now.
Wessel geez.
Oh wow Xyre finally votes Caex. Took you long enough.
Zindabad is just gone.
...
Oh what the **** caex
the ****
are you for real
and you can't be protected what the hell
welp
/agree
If he isn't dead in the morning, lynch him. Even if the scum are ballsy and make us lynch our cop, we'll get at least one result.
Unvote if voting, going to vote Xyre pending a review of the second half of the game.
-Xyre is trying to buddy up with me, by mimicking my reads and saying I'm town. I wanted to say I'm immune to that but I'm just a human being after all, he does looks more townie after his last posts, that being said he's still todays lynch.
-Wessel is certainly town, only an idiot would annoy a guy with a gun. Oh that's also yet another reason for why Xyre is scum. before my claim he was "OMG DRey is scum, lynch plz" after my claim "yeah, drey is too scummy to be scum, he's certainly town now". not buying it.
-I quite like Sep's post.
-There's something on the air, something only the big boys have noticed, I will not expand on this, but I think most people have finally caugh up. A question to confirm this, who here is REALLY against a Caex lynch? Who here has a town read of him? (besides bad townWessel)
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I've seen no games with a scumStardust. What does that have to do with anything at all? I didn't make any kind of comparison between scumStardust and townStardust, so I'm a bit baffled at where you're coming from here.
You thought he slipped left and right. I never saw anything to make me believe he was scum. I don't recall really interacting with him at any point in Giant Robot.
I don't recall saying anything about slips... The only time I can think of when I mentioned Stardust and slips in the same post is when I called him out for saying "I'm totally gonna act scummy and have scumslips but ignore that" right at the start of the game. Pre-emptive defensive mindset and all that.
{Magic: The RPG}
Not lynching Caex, and probably not willing to lynch him tomorrow, either, if he's not shot. Lynching cop claims is dumb.
Not lynching DRey. If he comes in with a sob story about how he shot the same target the mafia did, well. Yeah, okay. But it's a relatively provable role, and I don't see it as a tough guy in a mini.
Need to look back over early game to form thoughts on anyone else, though. I've read the most recent page, but not the early stuff - the massive words of wordiness.
Will say that my gut is screaming at me that Seppel is scum, already:
'Breaking the game open' feels forced, for lack of a better word. In the same way that people adding 'because I'm town' after everything they say does. It's just a little more subtle than that, I guess.
And the reaction to Caex really feels forced. I don't like it.
It's all gut, and I'd need to look at the person he replaced as well to see if the read solidifies due to that, or falls apart. Also need to read Xyre myself and see what my thoughts are there.
But jumping into the game and waving a sign above his head that says "I'm so town I'm gonna break this game open on man, look how town I am reacting to this thing" is a Thing.
Unvote if Che had his anywhere and such. Will report back later tonight or tomorrow with re-ready things.
Are you ever not going to twist my words? Not a single person has asked me to reveal Che's identity and I'm not going to out of respect for what I assume is a desire for secrecy, despite it being slightly relevent to this game (which is not really all that important, in the grand scheme of things). Anyway, it's in a public thread, so you can search it out yourself if you really think it's that critical.
Not even a mention.
That's a silly question. If I forgot it means I don't know if I ever read it, so there's no way I can answer that.
No idea. That's just how I talk.
Yes, of course.
I agree that Option 2 is the most likely. But I'm not willing to lynch him unless Option 3 really is probable. I agree that getting other vets to comment on this would be good. If it truly is 15% for a toughguy, I'd be up for the lynch today.
Okay. So I assume Seppel and Voxx are now your leading suspects?
HI!
Please no stupid gambits that don't go anywhere this game, okay?
THANK YOU! I forgot about that! Caex is scum.
Anyway, looking forward to more from you and Voxx.
I don't care for Voxx (formerly Che, who I was/am voting) coming in throwing mud on Seppel for doing Seppel things. That's absolutely not indicative of his alignment one way or another.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I believe my posts accurately reflect what I believe his alignment to believe.
If he is telling the truth, which I now believe he is, the flavor of his kill will reflect his alignment when juxtaposed with the mafia kill flavor.
Cyouni: If you had to choose one player to lynch right now, who would it be?
Seppel's post 456 is reading as a genuine stream-of-consciousness analysis.
Voxx's first post looks good, except for his gut read of Seppel. Nothing about Seppel's diction reads "forced" to me. His analysis of Seppel's comment "Let's break this game open" seemed incorrect. He is trying to use it to say that Seppel is talking about *actually breaking the game open* (Let's win the game through a loophole in design) instead of *Let's break this game open* (Let's break this case of beer open/Let me get started on my analysis.)
I don't like his multiple uses of the word "thing" in that post, it's almost like he's using it to paint Seppel in a negative light without solidifying his read with anything other than his gut.
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Obviously I'm reading this as you ducking down while we scramble for a lynch, but here's your chance to prove yourself.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Updating!
DRey: Xyre, Caex
Zionite: Caex, Stardust, Wessel
Wessel: DRey, Voxxicus, Cyouni
Stardust: Zionite, Voxxicus, Cyouni
Xyre: Cyouni, Wessel, zindabad
Cyouni: Seppel, Voxxicus
I think I got all that right. I pulled some of that from general conversation, so if you want to update or change any of that, post away.
No list given: WOLG, zindabad, Voxxicus, Seppel, Caex, DYH
PS: Sorry Zionite, I missed that you mentioned Wessel there while skimming your recent posts. I guess you do have three scum leads, but some content would still be good.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
DRey (1): Caex Kothar
Caex Kothar (1): Zionite
Voxxicus (1): DYH
Xyre (1): DRey
WellOfLostGnomes (1): zindabad
Wessel (1): Xyre
Not Voting (6): Cyouni, Wessel, Seppel, Stardust, Voxxicus, WellOfLostGnomes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
A three-day deadline extension has been granted. No further extensions will be granted for this Day.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Tuesday, April 30th (less than six days from this post).
zindabad has received a prod (his second).
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think there was a rock in the dirt you just threw.
There's nothing to do. I've said who I want to lynch ad nauseam and continuing that is only going to make it harder to get a lynch, not easier. I'm just waiting for everyone else to get their **** together so we can actually do something.
I'm not a fan of the "obviously" at the end. Too self-conscious.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The latter.
I deleted the strategy fight because it was verging on "I think X, you think Y". I still think his tactics don't match his stated strategy, but we're getting nowhere.
This reads like victimization to me. He's not being questioned, he's being "suffocated".
Liar.
Let's check the tape.
Read the entire post if you like. You never accused me directly of being scum, or anything one could even possibly interpret as such. The closest you would come is the quoted implication and an example of "you could be scum doing X or town doing Y" later on.
The entire argument you're proposing works off implication and indirectness, which clashes with what you're saying above (that you directly accused me of being scum there). And if you had, I'd understand that! That would better fit a townie's reaction to feeling like you're being swamped by **** arguments. But all you did was imply I could be scum by analogy - an indirect, shifty argument style, with no kicker of a vote or direct accusation. The fact that you felt the need to pull this thought out and stick it at the top, when it would have served its purpose just fine in the middle, makes it look all the worse?
Why could you have stuck it in the middle? Because you know I'm pretty exhaustive in my response, and I would have responded to it either way. No, you wanted other people to see it. That's the entire crux of this point. You wanted other people to latch onto your point while keeping yourself covered.
This, coupled with the fact that your opinion of me seems to uncannily follow mine of you (see below) makes me confident you're using suspicion of me to try to throw me off, or throw other people on me.
I'm truthful, but apparently I'm scummier than before? (Again, see below.) I can't even follow your argument anymore.
I'm constantly weighing my scum tells on you against the possibility that you're just so paranoid about being "ZDSed" that you'd play this way as town (that is, accuse me of being scum for trying to sort out your honestly misshapen arguments). The latter is of course possible, but it's pieces like the above, and your shifting opinion of the "he's like ZDS" bit, that make me think I have to trust the tells over the possibility your play is bad. (For context, second-guessing bad play made me miss Caex Kothar in Ataghan.)
But my point is, why couldn't you just ask "would you be willing to lynch a suspicious cop Day 1 in any hypothetical situation"? Why did it have to be a situation in which I have a null-read on him? Because such a phrasing wouldn't have made your follow-up any less effective.
Amazing how your opinion of me seems to closely follow my opinion of you.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
{Magic: The RPG}
I love (read: hate) that you front-loaded two defense of yourself in your "summary". It's posts like this that make me wonder if you're truly scum or just the most narcissistic, paranoid townie I've ever met.
What examples of DRey's scum play are you citing in developing this case on him, Wessel?
Did you forget my suspicions that game of Tanarin, Guardman, AsianInvasion (the three of whom I thought were a scum team together, hilariously), DRey (early on), and Cythare? Add that to the people I was on correctly, plus all the people I cased and then forgot about (such as Caex), and then factor in that I did all that in the span of three game days, and you're telling me I was playing carefully?
I look forward to seeing the rest of your reread.
But you never said either of those things, nor did you ever directly ask those players for content. You just said, apropos of nothing (and, granted, by implication), you'd like to see them lynched. And I find it curious that those are the two easiest players to accuse of being scum, seeing as they're absent and unresponsive. Care to comment on that?
It's kind of weird, though, that you've been so unsuccessful in finding any matters worth pursuing further. I'd expect someone who's been doing this "for years" to at least have some strong suspects at this point.
Who are your real scum suspects, pray tell? And give specific, cited reasons, please.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This is pretty funny since I've vanished off the list. But I was so scummy before when I was the biggest wagon apparently.
{Magic: The RPG}
Do you think DRey is lying about being the vig? What gives you that impression?
What has Voxxicus done that makes you think he's scum?
Last time on HobbitBall Z:
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
DYH (r. kpaca) - Kpaca was acting town and hasn't been replaced yet.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Needs to say something that can give me a strong read on him.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Said nothing notable.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - Hasn't been participating.
zindabad - No content.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
You've caught my interest.
That doesn't even make sense.
I still don't follow. You had a gut townread on Caex, but a case scumread on Caex?
I am subscribing to your newsletter.
There are timing issues with this.
"Everyone" meaning WoLG.
This needs a further response from Xyre.
No it isn't. "Tooth" is singular, "Teeth" is plural.
...and that was Xyre's response to DRey's post above.
HANDWAVE AWAY
WoLG calls out DRey and this happens:
Xyre attempts to get momentum going with a vote.
oh god Caex is voting too
Stardust seriously?
none of these points are strong enough to deserve a vote
Cyouni misattributes DRey's OP to Caex, and then mudslings @ Stardust.
DRey, we're not lynching Caex today, that's just stupid.
Che flat-out calls Caex the cop.
"I need to go reread ____" needs to be on a universally accepted list of scumtells. If you were really interested in rereading, you'd do it, or if there's not enough time, say that you will.
But not that you need to do it.
This came after another post where Xyre said he needed to read Ataghan, 12 minutes in between those two posts. And the verdict is inconclusive.
You read a town game of DRey's in 10 minutes and you're trying to compare it to this one. Weak.
Another sensible post by WoLG.
Goodposting by Wessel.
DRey has a pattern of refusing to claim.
Oh look at that:
...but where's the unvote?
Really don't like Che's mindset with these posts.
Either he doesn't believe what he's saying, and therefore, why say it? or he does believe what he's saying, and therefore, why no unvote?
And this is a worthless statement. Everyone in a game of Mafia has something to hide.
Jesus Zindabad it takes like 10 seconds to include a link with a post.. You could even just do it with the most important ones so they have more weight. This is like unwrapping christmas presents but they're all the same 8" x 8" x 8" brown box.
And then you don't even see the candy inside.
Zionite is bugging me.
/disagree on Wessel's post. Magical Girl Mafia was a very unique game. Also I believe I remember the pressure coming up on DRey very fast (like he replaced in and was suddenly under fire with a deadline going on). Correct me if I'm wrong; not going to bother slogging through that game.
DRey is a vig. Or a toughguy. Gut says vig based on play.
Naturally Xyre says kill him.
Why would you ever direct him to Caex?
Because Xyre says so?
Weak.
Hyperbole in the first paragraph. Also the first time I've ever seen Che talk to WoLG.
...
Wessel has snappy answers.
I don't know if Xyre is trying to exonerate DRey or convict him in this post. It's all over the place.
Wessel's next post is a little more confidence-insipring, except for this point:
"Caex claimed to be cop. If he really is a cop, I would expect him to be actively trying to see who would be good investigation targets. However, if he's scum and falseclaimed, I would expect him to either say something like 'Why would you ask this!?!', or illogical targets, or feign a good answer. It was a question more to see if he was scum rather than to see if he was town."
@Wessel: How in the world would you expect to divine the difference between a townie seeing "who would be good investigation targets" and a scum "feign[ing] a good answer?"
Additionally, provided Caex is truthful, it pretty much confirms a doc and a roleblocker. But then again, there is Wessel's newsletter.
Xyre replies to the above answer by Wessel with this:
So, what, you just hope the scum get lucky and shoot one of the three people Caex named?
Wessel's comparison of Xyre to ZDS reads as accurate to me. I'm also noticing that Wessel is the second person with which Xyre's got into a battle of words.
blah blah blah whoa wait a vote on Wessel
The way Wessel rages is much different than us. In fact, his idea of being active is a lot more passive than we see as active. There's nothing here.
Xyre's idea about what to do with Caex is ridiculous. Just wait until D2 and see what happens. I can't imagine a ballsy enough scumteam that would let Caex live. Yanni isn't in the game; Iso isn't in this game; Shalako isn't in this game. I'm the closest to a Johnny player we have in this game, and even I would kill Caex tonight.
Xyre tries to dissuade DRey again.
This game is a freaking gauntlet, compressed into 8 pages.
@Wessel: "But could you tell me now what your current read is on Caex, kpaca, and CropCircles? Oh, and while you're at it, could you also give us your read on WellOfLostGnomes, Che Guevara and Zionite?"
I remember someone in a recent game asking something exactly like that. But I can't remember who or which game it was. Was it you?
God Zindabad get it together.
Shoot these lurkers.
god text walls can someone else please freaking post?
Oh yay Cyouni's posting... a bunch of questions. Really? No independent thoughts after all that?
This reads like seeding woes and generally reducing the town morale.
However, I still have good feelings about WoLG, and the vote on Che is great.
Oh neat, a PBPA of Stardust. Zionite says, "It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex." Why "practically?" Eh, I'm just going to reread Stardust myself.
Reading each of Stardust's posts individually makes him look like he's coming out of nowhere, but if you read them in order, you see how his stream of consciousness flows. He's kind of like Void. Each time I think he's saying something out of nowhere, it makes sense from his mindset.
The only thing that bugs me is that he just sort of accepted Kpaca's non-answer and he never brought it up again. Reads like buddies trying to start a conversation but having it fall flat, but neither Kpaca nor Stardust are on my radar.
oh hi DYH
Wessel says: "Let's just leave it at I have a feeling but I can't prove it. Ok?" I approve.
If DRey were showing overwhelming scumminess, I'd say "lynch the toughguy," but DRey has appeared quite town, and the DRey wagon was filled with flimsy votes.
@Stardust: Mathematically, it's a free half-lynch. But I approve of the sentiment.
First thought is self-deprecation. Town.
Agree with everything DYH said except I disagree about Wessel being "passive."
Oh hey Stardust noticed the same thing I did. Note that it is characteristic for Cyouni to ask questions, but the ratio of questions-to-content here is getting ridiculous.
Oh yay, Cyouni posted stuff that wasn't questions. ...and none of it is relevant.
Ooh, a T/S list from Xyre. In depth shows potential info in the mid-range read of Che, and the positioning of wanting to lynch Wessel before Cyouni.
@Stardust: I see you're learning what "half-a-lynch" is.
Oh hi Seppel.
@Zionite: How is everyone reading DRey as town? Even Wessel says in the very next post that he thinks DRey is scum. I like a Che lynch. Also that was a terrible summary; prepare your mouth.
@Wessel: You will usually find a killing ability in a mini. What's with the smiley face?
@DRey: Well wishes.
@Caex: That's the whole point. You didn't make any sort of comparison between townStardust and scumStardust. Also, that's true, you didn't see anything wrong with Stardust in Giant Robot. So just break it down for me in one paragraph to make it easy on me: Why do you think Stardust is scum?
How "in depth" has your skimming been?
Weak.
Also, the mud is thrown with favoritism. Zindabad said this in his big post:
@Wessel:
This is probably the worst thing I've seen you post. It literally has no point.
Okay, caught up.
I want a Xyre or Che/Voxx lynch.
Vote Che/Voxxicus
Seppel (r. CropCircles) - Still has one transformation left
Caex Kothar - Turned out to be one of the worst cops ever
DYH/Kpaca - Kpaca was acting town and DYH is good.
Zionite - Posting with intent. I haven't seen anything that mirrors Cyberspace play.
DRey - Seems to be playing his towngame.
Stardust - Actively scumhunting. Don't like the continued push on Caex, though.
WellOfLostGnomes - I remember liking what he had to say, but can't remember any of it.
Wessel - Need answers.
Cyouni (r. Deaths_Vampire) - Need content.
zindabad - One post of content. Voxx favoritism.
Xyre - Hypocritical statement against Kpaca. Ending his "pro/joke" post with a question mark. A confusingly aggressive attempt to call DRey scum with Kpaca. An accusation of Zionite coaching out in the open. Something that seems like an appeal to DRey to vote Caex.
Voxxicus (r. Che Guevera) - As Che, bad participation, mindset is off, and he called Caex the cop. Voxx's entrance was mud.
I was suspicious of Che. Voxxicus hasn't done anything to change my mind. Che was trying to active lurk; he'd show up, post stuff with no explanation or usefulness, then vanish again.
{Magic: The RPG}
Put parts 1 and 2 together: claiming as doctor is riskier because there are fewer things that could go wrong. If they survive the night, they're likely scum; if they don't, they're likely town. With cops, the results are WIFOM and the doc is a complicating element. That make sense?
Oh, duh. What I meant was "teeths" is not a word.
I didn't respond to him because what should I say to someone who says "you're lying". "No, I'm not"?
You're oversimplifying the language matter. The implication of needing to reread Ataghan is that I need the information to better assess DRey's play.
I was in that game, remember? I didn't actually need to read the entire thing. I wanted to remind myself what happened to DRey late Day 2/early Day 3.
No, I mean we give him three names, he secretly chooses one of them at random and submits it.
Except the plan doesn't cost us anything and gives us some peace of mind, right? What's wrong with it?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Okay, I'm happy to do this, but you'll have to help me out if you want a more detailed answer. I've read every single one of your massive posts and each time have come away unimpressed. I know he asks a lot of questions, but I've been reading him as being more engaged than you give him credit for, and most importantly engaged in a townie kind of way, if that makes sense. Your latest post talking about the positioning of his comparison of you to ZDS was more compelling than anything else I can remember you posting.
But that's my problem. I can't remember. It's become too big for me to keep it all in mind for a proper reply. I went back and tried to reread, but it's just too painful. If you could please give a summary of your case (less than 300 words), I'd be happy to talk about my view on it point by point. Even just some bullets to jog my memory would be great.
Maybe a response to my case would be a good start.
You've never cased Wessel. If you're talking about your case on me, why is that relevant? I'll respond to that Day 2.
I'm glad AI extended the deadline, he said he would if activity increased.
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@Xyre: What are you trying to pull? Doc is the easiest falseclaim ever. A cop falseclaim is tough to push through, and falseclaiming Caex's role would take massive balls.
If you really needed to reread 10 minutes of Ataghan (minus the, what, 2 - 3 it took to post, and minus a couple of minutes to find the late Day2/Night3 posts because Zindabad didn't put in waypoints in the OP!), then you would've just done it instead of *****ed about it for two posts before finally going to do it.
And your plan costs us a vig shot and an investigation. How is that peace of mind?
192 (Xyre): The "meta question" in this post felt a little off-kilter. Why ask him to identify his own meta, saying you don't care if it's his town or scum meta?
195 (Caex): I have to decide if I'm just tunneling on this guy or if everything he says is actually so scummy. The first part of this post made me cringe. "My townieness will become self-evident" is straight out of the Scum's Guide to Appearing Townie quotebook. In 196, however, he brings up a good point about Zionite's response to DRey's gambit.
197 (Zionite): Reading from the same song sheet as Caex with the "my townieness will become apparent" line. Do not like. We also have "you're better than that" - it's like scum bingo.
204 (Xyre): This case pretty much collates all of the myriad twinges I've felt while reading Caex's posts. I see from trying to keep up a bit at the other end that Caex is still on the menu at the end of the day - good.
214 (Caex): Would love to hear an explanation about how a townie's reaction to getting a cop role is "hey, I'm unlynchable!" Za za.
227 (Cyouni): Not sure if I misunderstand this post, but it looks like you're saying Caex's behavior is consistent with how an unclaimed cop would play, which is of course a load of cobblers that makes me suspicious of you.
230 (Stardust): Not crazy about the excuse-me language in this one. "Feeling a little bit unsure"..."I don't think"..."Is this the best choice"..."I'm not sure"..."We'll see"..."Make sure we're not making a mistake." We get it. You're not 100% convinced.
236 (Caex): Not getting it. How could you come back D2 and say "sorry I got RB'ed" when you, you know, can't be RB'ed?
242 (Zionite): That...doesn't sound like a noob mindset at all. Noobs don't disregard attacks on themselves, they panic.
245 (kpaca): So I'm guessing you missed the part where he said he can't be roleblocked?
259 (DRey): How does your opinion of Cyouni's post change knowing now that, nearly 250 posts later, "on the verge of a lynch" Caex is still alive? You do have an excellent point about leaving Caex alive, having someone watch him, and netting either a cop investigation or a free scum - but that's contingent on us having a watcher at all and that watcher being town.
268 (Caex): So how is DRey not on the menu for a cop investigation because he'll "sort [him]self", but by the end of the post, you're voting him? This looks like rank opportunism - you see a wagon developing on DRey and you immediately try to follow its momentum (off yourself.)
273 (Stardust): This is what a vote on DRey should look like and just highlights the insincerity in Caex's post above. CC makes a decent argument for leaving Caex alive and not vigging him overnight, but I really am feeling a bit of a yearn to destroy him.
280 (Wessel): Thoughts on Caex? Not sure you have discussed his claim at all.
297 (DRey): Combined with other posts he's been making around this timeframe, I think DRey is losing the plot a bit. He has absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, on Xyre. I can't conceive that even DRey would be stubborn enough, as town, to repeatedly insist that one of his interlocutors is scum when giving no evidence at all, and in fact not even trying to engage that player (hence not reading his "walls.")
302 (Xyre): Seeing Xyre stick to the "vig Caex" plan despite objections from CC, Zionite, and WoLG is giving me a bit of a twinge. It's a bad plan. Either we lynch him or we don't - if we don't, it's because we're going into night looking for a result from him, WIFOM-laden as that result will be.
305 (DRey): "Have you ever seen a townie with convictions before"? Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now.
311 (Caex): Yes, press the attack, you scumzilla. Must be nice to have such an easy target to hide behind, right?
317 (Caex): That still isn't adding up. The question is why you planned on acting scummy/forthright enough to draw a roleblock. Your answer says "I thought the scum would RB me to get an easy mislynch"...but why would the scum expect an unclaimed player to get mislynched just for saying they got RB'ed? I re-read that and it looks unclear, so I'm going to format it a bit better:
- You're being asked why you acted so reckless as the (unclaimed) cop.
- You answer it's because you were trying to draw a roleblock so it could be nullified by your passive.
- When asked why the scum wouldn't just kill you instead, you said they wouldn't kill you when they could "2-for-1" you by roleblocking you.
- The problem with this is that that scum plan makes no sense as long as you aren't claimed. The scum have no reasonable expectation that you will get mislynched just for claiming a roleblock...unless you are already scummy and have claimed cop.
- In other words, what I'm trying to say is that your explanation is after the fact and is actually a load of nonsense. Your reason for playing recklessly in the first 200 or so posts was not actually to draw a roleblock.
I typed out a lot for this one post but with good reason - the reactions of the other players to this fallacious claptrap says it all.
337 (DRey): But now, after all of that, we actually have to lynch DRey after all.
344 (Zionite): Hating this post.
I know that doesn't really suffice but I'll have to finish later. In the unlikely event that I don't finish before deadline, here is my vote: DRey.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."