Zinda is cleared by the cop.
Seppel is cleared by being jailed last night and the mafia kill going through. WoLG is cleared because he is a town mason that isn't neutral gollum.
I'm fairly certain that the last mafia is allowed to use it's night abilities as well as preform the last kill. Waiting to hear back from asian on that to be sure, but that leaves PoE down to Voxx. Even Zionite was on to Voxx yesterday.
He jailed Caex to save him from DRey's vig shot.
He jailed Zinda because Zinda was cop cleared town and he wanted to possibly block a town power role.
He jailed Seppel because Seppel was a claimed power role.
You are not confirmed to be a mason. In fact, I suspect you've faked it - given that jailer chat logs could only be paraphrased, and not direct quoted as you did with the 'Iso' logs.
Also, Zionite wasn't 'on' to me, because there was nothing for him to be 'on'. Given that I'm town. Re-read the exchange between Zionite and I yesterday, and then look back at Day Two.
From my perspective, there's two possibilities:
#1 - WoLG is scum, and presumably is faking his mason chat. I'd need to re-read to see if his behavior actually supports it otherwise, I glossed over him on D1 because I had him written off as town. This is the simplest explanation, given jailing Seppel should have prevented him from killing.
#2 - Seppel is scum, and has a 1-shot or permanent ability that would let him do the kill despite being jailed.
Zionite is not a godfather and is 100% town.
The safest play would be to lynch Seppel and jail WoLG tonight, but that requires, well. Accepting that if I'm scum, I win.
It's understandable that neither Seppel or WoLG are going to be terribly thrilled with that plan, as the two possible scum.
So the game is effectively in Zindabad's hands.
Occam's Razor points directly at WoLG, but behaviorally everything points at Seppel.
Seppel could be telling the truth about his role, I guess, just not alignment? Would untargetable still get the jailer chat, but not have actually blocked him? I don't know. Given the strength town has, the remaining scum has to have something of note. With a watcher, tracker, jailer, it wouldn't surprise me if it's some kind of untrackable, unstoppable night kill, either.
I guess no matter what, the game is in Zinda's hands, so I want to hear more from him.
My suggestion is that we lynch Seppel and jail WoLG. It should 100% guarantee a town win.
If you think WoLG is more likely scum than Seppel, this still should remove the WoLG scum possibility from winning, while also removing the edge case of Seppel scum.
It doesn't account for the possibility that I could be scum, and I acknowledge that, but there's nothing I can really do regarding that possibility. If you (Zindabad) think I'm more likely scum than one of the two, then you have a way to deal with that, too.
But lynching Seppel and jailing happening tonight is probably the optimal path to take.
@Voxx: Asian told me directly that I was allowed to quote iso from the QT.
Seppel is Iso's brother in real life and I presented information that only iso could know, and said in thread that he knew that it was iso talking and not me faking it.
Also:
I haven't been on this site in almost 4 years, and have never played with iso outside of an ongoing other game. How could I fake his posts? Anyone who has played with iso before is going to see all of his language tells in the posts where I'm quoting him.
You're flailing. When I get back to a computer, I'll have quotes to prove it.
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One of you or Seppel has to be the remaining mafia.
Seppel was jailed last night, which means you are the most likely candidate, no matter how unlikely it seemed prior to today.
The only way you are not mafia is if Seppel has a role that let him still kill while being jailed - either some form of untargetable, or some kind of untrackable/untracable/unstoppable kill.
Behavior points directly to Seppel, and the only reason I'm even considering you is the jail on him.
So armed with the knowledge that I know it has to be one of you two, I want to lynch Seppel, and then jail you tonight.
It's almost pure WiFOM, but DYH dying sort of points to Seppel, too - given DYH can directly control the lynch, and was suspicious of him.
Iso is going back looking at interactions and I'm figuring out night actions.
Voxx and Zinda: Both of you ask Asian via PM if you're allowed to quote the other one from the QT. I'm not allowed to quote Asian from the QT, but I am allowed to directly quote Iso. I don't see why he wouldn't also let you guys quote each other. Jailer makes you temporary alignment unconfirmed masons, and, at least from what I remember, usually in games you can quote your mason.
@Voxx: You never answered Iso: "Voxx: Can you kill the player that you have jailed at the end of the day?"
You keep using terms like "basic logic" and "Occam's Razor" to say that I'm scum and that's incorrect:
The simplest solutions here are that you're a scum jailer or Zinda is godfather (Which I'm not convinced is the case.)
The town has massive power this game: Cop, tracker, watcher, vig, governor, and an extra chosen analyst (from my role having two players.)
The scum had a juggernaut and a vanilla goon, so they seem to be severely lacking in power, even with a neutral single player SK out there. So the last scum role would have to be powerful. Assuming that I'm scum: Would a mason with no abilities be enough power for the scum to win against that much town investigation? The answer to that is no, that'd be terribly unbalanced. The last scum is going to be someone claiming a power role, and I believe that a scum jailer that can talk to his targets is good balancing power.
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And no, of course you wouldn't actually /be/ masons if you were scum. You'd have to be faking it to be scum, which has never seemed likely.
But from my perspective, it is basic logic. Consider the following points:
-I'm town.
-Zindabad is 100% town.
-Seppel was jailed last night.
That leaves two possibilities:
1. You are scum, and either are faking being part Iso, or it's baked into your scum role...somehow.
2. Seppel is scum, and has a way to kill even while jailed.
The simplest answer is that you're scum, due to the jailing - hence Occam's Razor.
But I think Seppel is much, much, much more likely scum based on behavior.
I want to lynch Seppel. Jailing can be a backup if he's town, to buy us another day.
If you're town, then Seppel is scum, end of story. I realize you can't know that, but it's the truth.
And to answer Iso - I have no ability to kill anyone, and I'm not even sure why he'd ask that.
And for the jailer chat logs, we can't outright share the link, but we can paraphrase the conversation within. That seems to imply that we can't directly quote, hence my suspicion.
I think at this point it's almost certainly Seppel, despite the jailing.
With the town having a watcher, a tracker, and a jailer, the scum team could get boxed in far, far too easily without having some sort of untraceable kill, or untargetable ability.
Eh, there's no real point in us carrying on the charade anymore, either.
I'm not the Jailer. Zindabad is.
It was a planned gambit we orchestrated in jailer chat, that had the possibility to flat out win the game in several scenarios - we were pretty convinced that Stardust was scum, but in case it was a Seppel/DYH team or something, having the town jailer be ambiguous could have had me draw the NK to prevent me from jailing the next night, and let Zindabad do work behind the scenes. With Wessel killing Zionite and shaving off a night, it's much less effective, and no sense in hiding the fact.
Let's lynch Seppel today, and let Zindabad make the choice of which of WoLG or I to jail tonight.
It's why I was 100% sure he wasn't godfather considering, well. He'd have to be a town-checking-scum-jailer, and just... no.
I'm pretty sure Seppel is going to flip scum. Too much of his behavior indicates as such, and it outweighs being jailed, especially given how many targetable abilities the town has. Some kind of ninja kill would fit in perfectly to dodge the abundance of power roles.
Since we /do/ have a confirmed watcher, tracker and jailer.
I'm vanilla town - the only vanilla, probably out of some sick, twisted anti-modgaming scheme AI cooked up.
Let's lynch Scum!Seppel, and if he's somehow town, Zinda can do what he feels best over the night.
Seppel say that he was jailed by you specifically.
You're changing your story too much and have lied twice at least now. I no longer believe anything you say.
I'm waiting for zinda to get back in before I say anything else.
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Re-reading Zinda's posts in regards to the jailing, he's 100% the cop confirmed town jailer. Godfather jailer would be WAY too over powered in my opinion, even in this game full of power roles.
1.) You contradict yourself in the same post here:
And no, of course you wouldn't actually /be/ masons if you were scum. You'd have to be faking it to be scum, which has never seemed likely.
...
1. You are scum, and either are faking being part Iso, or it's baked into your scum role...somehow.
From Iso:
"Seppel, proof I'm Masons with WoLG, if you have any doubt: THE PARACHUTE ROOM. zindabad, proof I'm Masons with WoLG if you have any doubt: You didn't expect Survival Horror and Ataghan to come so close in the last FTQ; and don't worry about that Specialty, I got Zionite to take a look at it."
Zinda: Do you have any role related reasons to believe Voxx is town? The only thing that was said is that you believe he is town based on the chat you two had. He's claiming now to be a completely vanilla role in a game where the town is full of power roles and the only other vanilla was scum. It's a lot easier to look town to someone in a 1 on 1 chat than it is in a thread where other people can pick apart what you're saying.
You've already said that you thought I was town based on the masonry until the gollum thing came up. That's all been resolved, gollum is out of the game. I think Iso has provided substantial proof that he IS my mason and I'm not faking this. Seppel can confirm because now I've offered two different distinct pieces of information that only Iso could know: (The katana duel, and the parachute room.)
If I have to go between the possibility of a JOAT (I still need to finish going through all the claimed night actions because something smells fishy now that zinda is the jailer) and a vanilla, I'm going to want to lynch the vanilla. But Voxx's behavior has been less scummy than Seppel, and seppel's reaction to things makes me believe that he's lying about his role. I wrote him off as town because Iso's read on his first few posts.
The good news is that we have time to sort through all this. Seppel isn't going to vote himself to end the game even if Zinda comes to that decision, and Voxx isn't going to hammer himself if seppel and zinda vote him. I'm not hammering anyone until me and Iso finish our analysis.
Iso also wants re-stated full claims from everyone:
WoLG: Fili and Kili, townie mason brothers with Iso. I chose Iso from the replacement list to participate in the game.
Seppel was jailed last night, Zinda is cop cleared townie jailer, I'm behaviorally cleared townie proven mason. The only unaccounted for variable is Vanilla Voxx. He's the only person who could have committed the kill.
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That's vaguely OOG-ish, but yeah, you're almost certainly masons.
Which means it's Seppel.
Look at how much targeted town power we have, and how many of those roles can pin down the person commiting the mafia kill - Tracker, Watcher, Jailer.
Seppel is probably what he claims to be - just mafia. I bet he redirected Drey's 1-shot into Stardust on N1, given Drey's 'did you do something to me' claim, (and then Drey being shot that night). He probably used an untargetable type shot last night, so that he wouldn't be blocked, and still commit the mafia kill. I don't really understand why he'd still have the jailer chat in that case, but that's something to take up with AI in the post-game.
DYH being shot last night when he was locked in on Seppel being scum, and could single handedly lynch him if he wished is another point against Seppel.
Look at Seppel's behavior at the end of yesterday, when we were lynching Stardust, and his back was to the wall - he tried to deflect to DYH and was shot down by Zinda.
Like. Nothing he's done this game has been remotely town, and the only point in his favor is getting jailed. Which is a big point.
But I maintain he has a way around that, because well. A kill happened. And it wasn't me.
With a 100% confirmed town Jailer, it still gives us some leeway. Let's lynch Seppel - if he flips town, Zindabad can choose between myself or WoLG to jail.
At this point, I acknowledge that it'll probably be me if it gets to that point, and WoLG would win.
Hypothesis 1) Wessel and Stardust (with a potential Voxx (the potentiality rises significantly if he's the only vanilla (coughCyberspaceZindabadcough)) and less likely potential DYH) are mafia and we just need to go ahead and lynch them.
...
Hypothesis X) WoLG is Gollum as previously expected. Caex was neutral hunting because his team is underpowered(?), his role PM doesn't even say he can perform the mafia kill. No need to worry about this until there are no more kills or the game suddenly ends.
You already suspected Voxx here, and the point about Caex neutral hunting because his team is underpowered jives with the revealed scum roles and the revealed neutral.
I'm Radagast the Brown, *****es, here to save the company. I'm a JoAT with the following abilities:
* 1-shot untargetable (Passive)
* 1-shot redirect target player to myself
* 1-shot doc
* 1-shot give target player an extra vote the next day
N1: Redirected DRey to myself. (Reasoning: With Xyre/Caex/Cyouni all likely town after D1, I convinced myself that DRey was a toughguy and that I needed to stop his shot somehow. When he came in D2 asking me what happened to his shot, I knew that he knew perfectly well what happened to it, so I ignored the fishing attempt.)
N2: Docced Zionite (Reasoning: Either he's town and likely dead, or he's scum and it didn't matter.)
So, yeah. We don't have a jailer.
So supposedly his first three abilities are gone, which means his extra vote should be on someone, if he can give someone an extra vote, he's town in my book and we lynch Voxx for the win.
@Seppel: Who has the extra vote?
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I hold my recognition as the strongest dwarf in the company with the highest esteem. Despite that, I don't know why the others in the company perceive me as a dandy. Of course they would never say as such to me, personally, given my strength. Regardless, I have given myself completely to Throin while in the Blue Mountains, and shall fallow him with my head held high. (Extreme paraphrasing of the flavor, re-wording it)
I don't have a win condition listed in the role PM.
Seppel already said he was lying about the extra vote, I believe.
-1-shot untargetable (Passive)
And I bet he has this. I bet it prevented the jail from taking effect, and let him make the night kill.
Remember, we know now that we have a confirmed town Jailer who targeted Caex - Seppel insisted we did not, because it would have contradicted his story of him being the reason Caex survived the Vig shot.
That's vaguely OOG-ish, but yeah, you're almost certainly masons.
Which means it's Seppel.
Look at how much targeted town power we have, and how many of those roles can pin down the person commiting the mafia kill - Tracker, Watcher, Jailer.
Seppel is probably what he claims to be - just mafia. I bet he redirected Drey's 1-shot into Stardust on N1, given Drey's 'did you do something to me' claim, (and then Drey being shot that night). He probably used an untargetable type shot last night, so that he wouldn't be blocked, and still commit the mafia kill. I don't really understand why he'd still have the jailer chat in that case, but that's something to take up with AI in the post-game.
You're right, he could be scum with his (Mostly) truthfully claimed role:
He claimed the redirect to self, and also 1 shot doc. He could have Doc protected himself and then redirected Drey's kill to his protected self. He lives, the 1 shot vig looses it's 1 shot. He then has his 1 shot untargetable left, which would make it so that the Jail couldn't target him. There's a chance he DOESN'T HAVE THE JAILER CHAT. He said that you jailed him, not Zinda. And you're saying Zinda is the real jailer. WE NEED ZINDA IN HERE TO CONFIRM IF SEPPEL IS JAILED.
(He could also have given that extra vote to himself and can hammer himself for the win if either you or zinda vote me or you.)
DYH being shot last night when he was locked in on Seppel being scum, and could single handedly lynch him if he wished is another point against Seppel.
Look at Seppel's behavior at the end of yesterday, when we were lynching Stardust, and his back was to the wall - he tried to deflect to DYH and was shot down by Zinda.
Like. Nothing he's done this game has been remotely town, and the only point in his favor is getting jailed. Which is a big point.
But I maintain he has a way around that, because well. A kill happened. And it wasn't me.
Seppel's definitely been the scummiest. He pushed for a massclaim, mod gamed, and tried to get me lynched after calling me confirmed town.
The point in his favor could have been blocked by his untargetability.
With a 100% confirmed town Jailer, it still gives us some leeway. Let's lynch Seppel - if he flips town, Zindabad can choose between myself or WoLG to jail.
Yes it does. If seppel flips town, Zinda blocks you, we lynch you, game over town win. But lets wait and hear from Zinda first.
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Seppel already said he was lying about the extra vote, I believe.
-1-shot untargetable (Passive)
And I bet he has this. I bet it prevented the jail from taking effect, and let him make the night kill.
Remember, we know now that we have a confirmed town Jailer who targeted Caex - Seppel insisted we did not, because it would have contradicted his story of him being the reason Caex survived the Vig shot.
From your perspective, the play should be to lynch Seppel, and convince Zindabad to jail me.
This nets the win 100% of the time if YOU are town.
From my perspective, it's obviously to lynch Seppel and jail you, but at this point I think you're legit, and Seppel is 100% scum.
Never saw that he lied about the vote, just re-read and you're right.
What is up with the lies this game people?
Hey look, we came up with the same logic. I'm still going to wait for Zinda and Seppel to come in before I vote because I'm paranoid and Iso is still re-reading.
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I maintain that the Jailer gambit Zinda and I ran was a good thing. We didn't expect Wessel to actually kill Zionite, also, so we thought it'd be 5 alive, and that the jailer being 'hidden' would cause them to NK me, or risk the end game roleblock.
I think it worked out, too - if Zinda had been revealed as the Jailer yesterday, he was certainly dead last night over DYH.
Yeah. It's a good plan on zindas part regardless of your alignment. I liked how Zinda called it a master stroke.
Iso wanted me to point out: If we operate on the assumption that Seppel having his kill was a direct result of his one shot ability then even if we lynch you zinda can still jail seppel tonight there won't be a kill then we lynch seppel for the win.
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The seppel and dyh interaction and how seppel went after my lynch, as well as his insistence on the mass claim looks the worst.
Regardless of which one of you we lynch the town still wins because zinda can jail the other.
Vote: Seppel
Zinda: can you ask the order of night actions? I know this information is often public knowledge depending on the mod.
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I was toying with the idea of counterclaiming Stardust as bulletproof or doc, because I knew there was a protective role, and Seppel/Stardust's whole gameplan seemed to revolve around there...not being one. Somehow.
When I had the idea to just claim Zinda's role to make it more obvious who the scum were, and possibly draw the kill.
I don't usually gambit as town like that, but knowing Zinda was 100% town and we could back each other up and iron things out helped.
Me and Iso are in a heated debate about me placing my vote, because he is as unsure about Voxxicus as I am.
Luckily, Zinda is absolutely town (If he's a godfather jailer, I'll eat my hat) so he's not going to come in a hammer for a scum win.
If Zinda and Seppel both come in stating that Seppel is in fact currently jailed by Zinda, then I'll unvote and rethink some more.
As of right now, Iso is convinced that Voxx had to have made the kill if Seppel is in jail chat with Zinda.
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If Seppel somehow flips town (he won't), Zinda can just jail whoever he thinks is more likely scum between WoLG/Myself. Which will presumably be me at this point.
With Seppel's behavior, the plethora of town targeting roles and the weird claim full of defensives, he's almost certain scum that has some way to bypass the roleblock and still kill.
Let's just start with confirming that I jailed Seppel last night and have been talking to him (as myself, not as Voxx) today. That means that Seppel is either town (how could he have killed last night?) or an unblockable scum.
My successful use of my jail ability on Seppel has other ramifications. For one, it means he is not untargetable, because my ability targeted him (which I know since we've been mason chatting.) That means he was either lying about the one-shot untargetable or already used it.
Now, back to him and DRey on D2. DRey asked Seppel if he had done something with his [DRey's] kill on N1. This confirms that DRey knew Seppel had targeted him. Seppel later said he had redirected DRey to himself, and from town DRey's reaction, I believe this to be true. So if Seppel redirected DRey to himself, but is still alive, it stands to reason that he was one of the following: doc protected (no doc has claimed to protect Seppel), unkillable (why would he be unkillable as scum when his teammate Stardust already had an "unkillable" passive and there's only one town kill in the game?), untargetable (we know he isn't because I jailed him last night), or had a one-shot untargetability passive as he claimed.
Everything points to Seppel telling the truth about his first two abilities. Doccing and vote-granting have not been proven, but now I ask you if you think a scum player in this game has the following set of abilities:
1-shot redirect.
1-shot untargetability.
Passive immunity to roleblocks.
That's what Seppel would need to have in order to be scum at this point. (Or, the Mafia NK could be unblockable itself, but in that case why put my role in the game?)
...Of course, Seppel could be a roleblocker, now that I think about it. Roleblockers are often immune to being blocked themselves. This could also explain why he didn't bother to try killing Voxx (ostensibly the jailer) because he would have no fear of him, and also why DRey's kill didn't go off - that "redirect to me" story could've just been bull, and Seppel could've just blocked DRey.
Hmm. His behavior is the worst of everyone's, easily. I want to believe Voxx is town, and WoLG's role makes absolutely no sense on scum (masons with a non-voting player??)
I'm town. Please go back and re-read the jailer chat, and re-read the back and forth with Xyre, if you're having second thoughts.
That means it needs to be one of Seppel or WoLG.
WoLG has confirmed that he's masons with Iso, and it realistically doesn't make a lot of sense as scum, especially given the town power.
But. Remember Caex's claim? Bullheaded, he called it (I think) - where he couldn't be blocked or protected. Could Seppel have that role, with maybe a 1-shot redirect or something?
I've also never seen anyone notified when they were redirected. Roleblocked, yes. But busdrivings/redirects are generally unknowns that are meant to cause chaos behind the scenes, yes? The fact that Drey was /asking/ Seppel if he targeted him means that he didn't know for sure. I could see Seppel pouncing on that, killing Drey, and building a falseclaim off it, where he doesn't actually have the one-shots he's claimed.
Since we know Zinda protected Caex N1.
Wait, if Seppel claimed to redirect abilities from Caex to himself, wouldn't HE have been jailed instead of Caex?
But why would he waste the vig shot like that if he were town? If he targeted Caex trying to deflect the mafia kill from him I'd understand it.
He's scum.
I don't know how he shot while still being jailed, but he did. Somehow.
Let's lynch him.
If he somehow flips town (I don't think it's even a remote possibility that he will), Zinda can jail me if he feels that's the right call.
I'm town, but I can't really fathom WoLG's role being mafia, so yeah. I think talking about the after-Seppel jailing is all a moot point, as I don't think the game will continue onwards after Seppel is lynched. It's just to provide you guys with some peace of mind, since you don't have the 100% confirmation of me being town that I do.
Seppel has to be lynched today, just because of the possibility that he's permanently unblockable.
I'm confident enough that he's scum at this point that you can jail me tonight if he flips town. It'd hand the win to WoLG, but whatever. Seppel won't flip town.
I'll have Words with AI post-game about how dumb it is that the roleblock wouldn't affect him, but he still gets the jailer chat, though.
(also about being the only vanilla in a game to be modgaming bait).
I'm off to work, and have nothing else to say, I don't think. If anyone wants to ask questions about my behavior or mindset at any point throughout the game, fire away, and I'll try to explain in depth tonight. (Except Seppel. I don't answer questions from confirmed scum, it's a waste of time)
From Iso: "How do you explain the scum having 2 Untargetable variants according to your theory. If Seppel is scum, he's a Redirector, not a JoAT with an Untargetable shot and a Doc shot. There is basically no way Vox is not the last scum at this point."
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I think Seppel is probably what Caex claimed to be.
I don't think he targeted Drey at all - because the only thing that Drey would have been notified by would be a roleblock, and that doesn't mesh with his reaction.
I think Seppel just took Drey's question and ran with it, forming the JoaT fakeclaim.
I get that it looks like I'm flailing, but the fact is that I can't explain exactly how he made the kill - except that if WoLG is town, Seppel made the kill, no matter how hard it is to believe.
All I can do is offer theories, and it won't be grounded in fact until Seppel flips Mafia Whatever, and we see.
Lynch Seppel.
Jail me.
We still win, unless Seppel is town. We lose in that scenario, because it makes WoLG scum. With a really dumb scum role.
Seppel won't flip town.
Now off to work seriously, just checked this before closing laptop, and was seeing Iso being dumb.
The mafia do/did have some sort of roleblock -- while searching my flavor PMs for clues, I noticed that my doc protect on Zionite N2 failed. Never mind. The One Ring blocked my doc protect.
Voxx is speaking in a lot of truths that shouldn't be truths.
Seppel say that he was jailed by you specifically.
The jailer chat does not specifically say who the jailer is. I got the PM that said I was jailed and that I can talk with the jailer in a quicktopic. I'm allowed to paraphrase the conversation.
I got the notification that I was jailed a few minutes before day started. The first thing I did was pop in and ask the jailer (who I assumed was Voxx) what his plan was for winning now that I'm jailed -- no-kill, then get me lynched?
Six minutes later, I see that three people are dead, and I'm still under the assumption that Voxx jailed me. Ten minutes later, Zindabad sorts that out in the QT.
I'm leaning Seppel because he's been basically trying to push bad logic and has been inventing reasons to lynch me.
You have to admit that "I want a second vote because it would be cool if we both had one," sounds scummy as hell. With Wessel revealed as Gollum, however, I don't see how an extra vote could benefit you, so I just have to take you at your word that you wanted simply because it would be "cool."
Zindabad is the jailer, and he's 100% town for not hammering me.
@Voxx: Why did you say that Zindabad was 100% town before then?
This also means that we have no idea what Voxx's abilities really are. He was jailed N2, which likely means that Stardust performed the kill. Either that, or he's somehow immune to half-of-being-jailed, or something. Voxx said they were communicating.
You are not confirmed to be a mason. In fact, I suspect you've faked it - given that jailer chat logs could only be paraphrased, and not direct quoted as you did with the 'Iso' logs.
#1 - WoLG is scum, and presumably is faking his mason chat. I'd need to re-read to see if his behavior actually supports it otherwise, I glossed over him on D1 because I had him written off as town. This is the simplest explanation, given jailing Seppel should have prevented him from killing.
In some bizarre and masterful play with the combined efforts of WoLG and Iso, yes, they could be scum. But not at all for the reasons you're giving.
#2 - Seppel is scum, and has a 1-shot or permanent ability that would let him do the kill despite being jailed.
Or, what is more likely, you have an ability like that. I think the vanilla claim was done out of a need to claim quickly, just as I got you to out that you were the SK-variant in FHF.
I don't see how you can just look past everything I've done and still suggest that I could be scum. I feel like I've repeated this multiple times:
DRey knew exactly that I had redirected his shot to myself. I received two messages, paraphrased to "you successfully made DRey target you" and "someone targeted you last night and your protection is gone." DRey probably received something like "You failed to kill Seppel."
Seppel could be telling the truth about his role, I guess, just not alignment? Would untargetable still get the jailer chat, but not have actually blocked him? I don't know. Given the strength town has, the remaining scum has to have something of note. With a watcher, tracker, jailer, it wouldn't surprise me if it's some kind of untrackable, unstoppable night kill, either.
I guess no matter what, the game is in Zinda's hands, so I want to hear more from him.
My suggestion is that we lynch Seppel and jail WoLG. It should 100% guarantee a town win.
If you think WoLG is more likely scum than Seppel, this still should remove the WoLG scum possibility from winning, while also removing the edge case of Seppel scum.
It doesn't account for the possibility that I could be scum, and I acknowledge that, but there's nothing I can really do regarding that possibility. If you (Zindabad) think I'm more likely scum than one of the two, then you have a way to deal with that, too.
But lynching Seppel and jailing happening tonight is probably the optimal path to take.
Everything you said here is WIFOM. You could literally change "Seppel" to "Voxxicus" and it would be exactly what I have to say right back to you.
DYH being shot last night when he was locked in on Seppel being scum, and could single handedly lynch him if he wished is another point against Seppel.
Look at Seppel's behavior at the end of yesterday, when we were lynching Stardust, and his back was to the wall - he tried to deflect to DYH and was shot down by Zinda.
Are you serious? None of that happened. I was locked in on a Stardust/Wessel scumteam (which, hooray, was at least 100% anti-town), with you as a close second, and DYH as a distant third. And I dispelled the notion of DYH being scum because it was likely we'd have already lost if he were scum.
The only thing that could even give you that notion is the part where DYH jumped on me (for thinking he was a Governor), then off me (for showing him that it was obvious he was a Governor), then back on me (for pulling out the extra vote gambit).
In fact, throughout the entire game, DYH was singing an entirely different tune:
I really, really don't like DYH. It's a mix of gut, his fixation on lynching the 'easy' claim, and what feels like the lack of a town mindset - he's not trying to figure things out. It's difficult to articulate, but he just feels like abrasive, dismissive scum, and I want him cop checked. It's not a strong enough case to lynch him over, not with the scummy play and role dichotomies floating around. But I've learned to trust my D1 gut reads.
Well of course you don't - I want you lynched because you're scum, and that's obviously a problem for you. But you don't want it to look like OMGUS so you continue to scummily direct power roles around and just talk about how much you don't "like me". I am abrasive - to you - because I think you're scum. Also, it's not just that you're an "easy" lynch - that clearly hasn't been the case as you're not dead yet - but your predecessor was useless and scummy, and I'm clearly not impressed with your contributions.
I'm not trying to "figure things out" because the game state calls for a scenario where we need N1 to pass in order to make the best decision.
I'd tell you to get a new gut, but I don't think you're town, so that's not the issue.
Quote from Voxx »
But given that I don't want to lynch the un-cc'd cop, think Cyouni's role is more likely to be townsided with the provable extra vote on track /and/ think Xyre is fairly likely scum, we should lynch Xyre.
And now, of course you want to lynch a claimed power role. Not going to happen.
Quote from Voxx »
I'll revisit things tomorrow when it's not 4 am and I've slept, but I think I'm pretty set on that.
But be sure to leave the door open in case you need to backtrack on your current opinion if it's not well-received. Got it.
@Zionite: Regarding Voxx, it's still the same as it's been all along. Che was beyond useless, and Voxx came in and immediately slung mud at Seppel for doing Seppel things, then tried to direct power roles away from himself, and even now continues to defend via ad hom. His claim is awful. The only point in his favor at this point is that Che wanted to lynch Caex. That's a big point, admittedly, and one that I'm torn about.
Seppel already said he was lying about the extra vote, I believe.
-1-shot untargetable (Passive)
And I bet he has this. I bet it prevented the jail from taking effect, and let him make the night kill.
Remember, we know now that we have a confirmed town Jailer who targeted Caex - Seppel insisted we did not, because it would have contradicted his story of him being the reason Caex survived the Vig shot.
Except I was jailed, and the 1-shot untargetability was used up on DRey's vig shot.
From your perspective, the play should be to lynch Seppel, and convince Zindabad to jail me.
This nets the win 100% of the time if YOU are town.
From my perspective, it's obviously to lynch Seppel and jail you, but at this point I think you're legit, and Seppel is 100% scum.
Again, this logic could be said in the exact opposite direction. And considering today is labeled "Endgame," I am absolutely not okay with this plan.
I really don't know how anyone could possibly believe I'm scum after all this. I've been scumhunting the entire game. I even came up with a Seppelplan(TM) to find out the truth behind WoLG. I tried to get Caex to out the "jailer." I wanted to lynch Wessel or Stardust. I've proven my damn role. I even breadcrumbed it in my first post.
I believe WoLG is town. Iso's attempts to communicate and actually play the game aren't what I would expect from a scum that received the role. WoLG vouching that they're confirmed town masons means that they're both town or both scum, negating any crackpot theories otherwise. Therefore, they're town.
Zindabad didn't hammer me, confirming that he's town.
This was a lot longer than I was expecting it to be, and I haven't even gotten to a review of Voxx. But it's not like we're in a rush.
Roleblockers can be roleblocked in AI games, according to AI, so that takes the "Seppel is the secret roleblocker" theory off the table.
Increasingly set on Voxx at this point but I will continue to re-read.
Okay, then this is pretty simple then. Seppel was blocked and there was a kill. There's no way Zinda did it, and I know I didn't do it. Game over. Vote: Voxxicus
Iso says: "Hi Voxx. Consider our perspective for a moment. These are the facts:
WoLG and I are Masons. I know he's town, he knows I'm town. We share the same role PM. This would be no different from having me actually in the game, except I just can't post. We are confirming each other to you guys - a typical confirmed Mason pair would not be going under any scrutiny at this point in the game with 2 dead scum and a Neutral in a Mini, so I have no idea why it's an issue that you would take this at face value.
Seppel was Jailed last Night and already used his claimed Untargetable shot. This is correlated by zindabad, who is confirmed town a la Zionite, and whose Night action last Night is accounted for via Seppel. Therefore, Seppel and zindabad could not have performed the kill last Night because zindabad Jailed Seppel and would have also blocked him.
That leaves you, Voxx, the ONLY claimed vanilla in this game. WoLG and I know we didn't perform an action last Night, zindabad has confirmed that Roleblockers can be Roleblocked, and AI has confirmed to WoLG and myself in our Mason chat that any player Redirected would be informed of the Redirection dependent on their role - example being that DRey would have received a PM that said, "You failed to kill Seppel last Night," or something to that effect.
That means Seppel's 1-Shot Untargetable is definitely expended - not only for that reason but because zindabad obviously targeted him last Night.
Unless you are proposing that the mafia team has TWO Untargetable variants (can't be targeted with kills when killing, 1-Shot Untargetable/Redirector, + claimed Doc shot), which is patently ridiculous, well...you've backed yourself into a corner.
There's no way anybody but Voxx is the last scum."
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I don't understand how Seppel made the kill, but he did. I'm telling you that even if you think it's a 95% chance that I'm mafia, that you should be lynching Seppel today, and having me jailed tonight.
There is no confirmation that Seppel actually targeted Drey.
I think Seppel does not have any one-shots - but instead is a permanent unblockable and unprotectable, like Caex claimed to be on D1 (Caex ended up being a goon).
I think Seppel took Drey's random question and ran with it, formulating the falseclaim.
But maybe he is what he claims to be and also has a 1-shot ninja kill or something, that doesn't let him be blocked for it.
I don't know. The only thing I know is that I'm town, and Zindabad is town.
Which means that Seppel or WoLG had to have made the kill last night.
Behaviorally WoLG has been pretty town.
Behaviorally Seppel has been scummy as all get out.
Please re-read Che's early play, re-read my interactions with Xyre, and Zindabad should re-read the Jailer chat.
Reconcile any of that with me being scum.
You can't, because...I'm not scum.
Lynch Seppel, and jail me. Because in the scenario where Seppel is scum, he made the kill while being jailed last night.
You're taking a stupid risk in lynching me and then having to jail him and hope it was just a 1-shot.
Maybe it was, and maybe it'll work after I flip town - but it's an unnecessary risk.
I was already jailed, and a kill still happened. Given that Stardust was a prime suspect that night, and I was mostly a consensus town read after the claim and my D1 behavior, why would the hypothetical Voxx/Stardust scum team have Stardust make the kill?
It makes no sense from a strategic perspective.
I want to just shake Iso in particular and try to knock sense into him.
Stop modgaming, and take the logical course of action.
It's a 'high power' game, after all, not a 'everyone has a power'.
I'm vanilla. AI certainly put that into the game for the very reason of being difficult to believe, and punish the town for modgaming, much as the tracker + watcher + cop 'dichotomy' did on D1.
I don't want to lose a game that we had won a couple days ago through pure PoE.
The remaining two scum had to be in the Wessel/Stardust/Seppel cluster, and they are. All three of them are scum, which is kind of hilarious.
Just... accept that there's the possibility that Seppel has some way to kill while being jailed, and use appropriate risk aversion. Lynch him, and jail me.
@Zinda - game is in your hands, obviously. Trust in your initial reads. Even if you think there's a good chance that I'm scum, and I acknowledge it's a reasonable assumption given the night actions, you have to admit that Seppel fits the part far, far better behaviorally. Go back over the previous jailer chat, and try to find any way that what I posted could come from a scum mindset. Look at my reads, look at the jailer gambit. The logical play here is to also acknowledge that there's a possibility that Seppel could have a permanent unblockable type role, and lynch him. In the incredibly unlikely event he flips town, you can jail me tonight. It'll hand the win to WoLG, but I don't even care at this point. There's no case to be made on him, which means Seppel will not flip town.
- Why would Seppel be unprotectable in a game where his team has no doc shots, and just to add to that (if we believe Seppel is scum and therefore fakeclaiming his 1-shot doc ability) the town ALSO has no doc shots?
- It is incredibly obvious why the Voxx/Stardust scumteam would have Star make the kill - maybe because Stardust has a passive that makes him invincible while he's targeting other players? Come on! You are better than that. This was a particularly shocking attempt at giving yourself town credit.
- The "watcher/tracker/cop dichotomy on D1" did not actually punish the town, because one of them was actually scum.
Adding to that, your appeals have become increasingly desperate and extremely reminiscent of caught scum. "I know I'm town and I have no other explanation for <this thing that's happening that incriminates me>, but my role PM says I'm town" is a class scum defense. The brutal, unavoidable truth is that I jailed Seppel and the mafia still killed, and the most obvious explanation for that is that Seppel is not mafia. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I believe him 100% town, and that takes some doing.
The day's title also declares that it is "endgame." This leads me to believe that we will not have the luxury of jailing you after mislynching Seppel. It's possible that you are the unblockable scum, although I also rate that pretty unlikely. The bottom line is that it's one of you and WoLG, and on present evidence, it's you.
I did re-read the mason chat, and I think you favored Wessel a little too strongly over Stardust as the lynch yesterday. I also think you leaned a little heavily on the idea of me repeatedly jailing you (you mention it twice) which may indicate that you actually wanted me to jail you because you are unblockable. If I had jailed you, and there was still a kill, the game would've been effectively over because I (and everyone else, once I told them about it) would've then incontrovertibly believed you town.
In fact, thinking about it more and more, I wonder if what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. I mean, you're telling me to believe that
Seppel killed even though he was jailed and even though there is no evidence of same (and there is actually evidence to the contrary.) Now let me ask you - if, according to you, Seppel could be unblockable scum, what exactly is stopping you from being unblockable scum, and when we lynch him, we die to unblockable you?
It has to be this way. If you're town, I jail WoLG and cross my fingers. I can't bring myself to believe that Seppel is scum. Alla fortuna - vote: Voxxicus.
The day's title also declares that it is "endgame." This leads me to believe that we will not have the luxury of jailing you after mislynching Seppel.
Or you won't have the luxury of jailing Seppel after mislynching me... which is why I was pushing for Seppel's lynch today.
This whole day was stupid, and I don't know what else I could have done.
I'm vanilla town, WoLG's role is almost unfathomable to be scum, which only leaves Seppel. Given how many town targeting roles could PoE down the scum team, it's basic logic that they had some way to avoid detection or blocking. With a goon and a bulletproof flipped, and half of Seppel's claimed 1-shots being misdirection (redirect, untargetable) that don't make sense from a town standpoint, I don't understand why he wasn't lynched.
Beyond frustrating to lose a game that we had the scum team PoE'd by Day Two.
I thought Seppel had voted for me in his massive wall of tripe earlier.
This makes me vaguely uncomfortable in the 'spirit of the game' sense of things.
I mean, I'm town, obviously, but you wouldn't have thought I was if I hadn't thought it was a hammer and bleh.
As dumb as it is for us to lose the way we did, it's arguably even dumber for Seppel to lose because I was ticked off and frustrated in what I thought were post game comments.
If you're going to lynch me, do it today so there's at least the chance of jailing Seppel overnight.
But I doubt it'd work, he's probably permanently unblockable or something. Maybe he has a 1-shot ninja kill that bypasses protection/roleblocking?
I don't know.
Only thing I know is that I'm town, and you guys basically are disregarding behavior, and trying to pin it down on roles. It's beyond frustrating from my end, since I know I'm town.
It has to be Seppel.
The only way WoLG would even be feasible is if WoLG is town and Iso scum, or something.
Or there's 2 mafia and 2 neutrals, as dumb as that'd be. Be kind of funny if WoLG was neutral after all.
But I strongly believe that it's Seppel. His voting patterns scream scum, his behavior screams scum, everything does, except for the jailing last night.
1 point in his favor for not being scum (that can be negated in a variety of ways) doesn't override the multitude of scummy things he did this game.
Go back and look at his entering-the-game post. He writes Caex off as the Cop. He made 2-3 posts 'clearing' Stardust as scum based on his behavior in a previous game, and interactions with Caex. He pushes for the mass claim to find the jailer, who he insists wasn't town. Go back and look at his rationale for the Cyouni lynch.
He just hopped from mislynch to mislynch to mislynch, and tried to lynch WoLG yesterday after setting up the neutral fearmongering with Caex on D2.
There's not a single thing he's done this game that is remotely town, and the only reason you're writing him off is because he was jailed. Joat with 3 1-shots, all protective? How often does that happen, townsided? Town joats almost always have at least one investigative shot.
If he's actually a JoaT, I bet he has a 4th one-shot that's a ninja kill. Or he could have just pounced on Drey's question and faked the entire role based off it.
I don't know. I can't know, until he flips.
But I'm just tired, at this point, and want it over. I went from extreme frustration to apathy rapidly.
I'm town. Seppel is 95% scum, WoLG/Iso is about 5%.
If you want to win the game 100%, lynch Seppel and jail WoLG.
But let's just end this one way or the other soon, since there's no arguments I can make that I haven't. Seppel's behavior all game was beyond atrocious. He's scum. And as to how he avoided the roleblock, all I have are wild theories. One of them is probably true, but I don't know which one.
You are not confirmed to be a mason. In fact, I suspect you've faked it - given that jailer chat logs could only be paraphrased, and not direct quoted as you did with the 'Iso' logs.
Also, Zionite wasn't 'on' to me, because there was nothing for him to be 'on'. Given that I'm town. Re-read the exchange between Zionite and I yesterday, and then look back at Day Two.
From my perspective, there's two possibilities:
#1 - WoLG is scum, and presumably is faking his mason chat. I'd need to re-read to see if his behavior actually supports it otherwise, I glossed over him on D1 because I had him written off as town. This is the simplest explanation, given jailing Seppel should have prevented him from killing.
#2 - Seppel is scum, and has a 1-shot or permanent ability that would let him do the kill despite being jailed.
Zionite is not a godfather and is 100% town.
The safest play would be to lynch Seppel and jail WoLG tonight, but that requires, well. Accepting that if I'm scum, I win.
It's understandable that neither Seppel or WoLG are going to be terribly thrilled with that plan, as the two possible scum.
So the game is effectively in Zindabad's hands.
Occam's Razor points directly at WoLG, but behaviorally everything points at Seppel.
Seppel could be telling the truth about his role, I guess, just not alignment? Would untargetable still get the jailer chat, but not have actually blocked him? I don't know. Given the strength town has, the remaining scum has to have something of note. With a watcher, tracker, jailer, it wouldn't surprise me if it's some kind of untrackable, unstoppable night kill, either.
I guess no matter what, the game is in Zinda's hands, so I want to hear more from him.
My suggestion is that we lynch Seppel and jail WoLG. It should 100% guarantee a town win.
If you think WoLG is more likely scum than Seppel, this still should remove the WoLG scum possibility from winning, while also removing the edge case of Seppel scum.
It doesn't account for the possibility that I could be scum, and I acknowledge that, but there's nothing I can really do regarding that possibility. If you (Zindabad) think I'm more likely scum than one of the two, then you have a way to deal with that, too.
But lynching Seppel and jailing happening tonight is probably the optimal path to take.
Seppel is Iso's brother in real life and I presented information that only iso could know, and said in thread that he knew that it was iso talking and not me faking it.
Also:
I haven't been on this site in almost 4 years, and have never played with iso outside of an ongoing other game. How could I fake his posts? Anyone who has played with iso before is going to see all of his language tells in the posts where I'm quoting him.
You're flailing. When I get back to a computer, I'll have quotes to prove it.
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I'm town, Zindabad is town.
One of you or Seppel has to be the remaining mafia.
Seppel was jailed last night, which means you are the most likely candidate, no matter how unlikely it seemed prior to today.
The only way you are not mafia is if Seppel has a role that let him still kill while being jailed - either some form of untargetable, or some kind of untrackable/untracable/unstoppable kill.
Behavior points directly to Seppel, and the only reason I'm even considering you is the jail on him.
So armed with the knowledge that I know it has to be one of you two, I want to lynch Seppel, and then jail you tonight.
It's almost pure WiFOM, but DYH dying sort of points to Seppel, too - given DYH can directly control the lynch, and was suspicious of him.
Voxx and Zinda: Both of you ask Asian via PM if you're allowed to quote the other one from the QT. I'm not allowed to quote Asian from the QT, but I am allowed to directly quote Iso. I don't see why he wouldn't also let you guys quote each other. Jailer makes you temporary alignment unconfirmed masons, and, at least from what I remember, usually in games you can quote your mason.
@Voxx: You never answered Iso: "Voxx: Can you kill the player that you have jailed at the end of the day?"
You keep using terms like "basic logic" and "Occam's Razor" to say that I'm scum and that's incorrect:
The simplest solutions here are that you're a scum jailer or Zinda is godfather (Which I'm not convinced is the case.)
The town has massive power this game: Cop, tracker, watcher, vig, governor, and an extra chosen analyst (from my role having two players.)
The scum had a juggernaut and a vanilla goon, so they seem to be severely lacking in power, even with a neutral single player SK out there. So the last scum role would have to be powerful. Assuming that I'm scum: Would a mason with no abilities be enough power for the scum to win against that much town investigation? The answer to that is no, that'd be terribly unbalanced. The last scum is going to be someone claiming a power role, and I believe that a scum jailer that can talk to his targets is good balancing power.
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And no, of course you wouldn't actually /be/ masons if you were scum. You'd have to be faking it to be scum, which has never seemed likely.
But from my perspective, it is basic logic. Consider the following points:
-I'm town.
-Zindabad is 100% town.
-Seppel was jailed last night.
That leaves two possibilities:
1. You are scum, and either are faking being part Iso, or it's baked into your scum role...somehow.
2. Seppel is scum, and has a way to kill even while jailed.
The simplest answer is that you're scum, due to the jailing - hence Occam's Razor.
But I think Seppel is much, much, much more likely scum based on behavior.
I want to lynch Seppel. Jailing can be a backup if he's town, to buy us another day.
If you're town, then Seppel is scum, end of story. I realize you can't know that, but it's the truth.
And to answer Iso - I have no ability to kill anyone, and I'm not even sure why he'd ask that.
And for the jailer chat logs, we can't outright share the link, but we can paraphrase the conversation within. That seems to imply that we can't directly quote, hence my suspicion.
With the town having a watcher, a tracker, and a jailer, the scum team could get boxed in far, far too easily without having some sort of untraceable kill, or untargetable ability.
Vote: Seppel
I'm not the Jailer. Zindabad is.
It was a planned gambit we orchestrated in jailer chat, that had the possibility to flat out win the game in several scenarios - we were pretty convinced that Stardust was scum, but in case it was a Seppel/DYH team or something, having the town jailer be ambiguous could have had me draw the NK to prevent me from jailing the next night, and let Zindabad do work behind the scenes. With Wessel killing Zionite and shaving off a night, it's much less effective, and no sense in hiding the fact.
Let's lynch Seppel today, and let Zindabad make the choice of which of WoLG or I to jail tonight.
It's why I was 100% sure he wasn't godfather considering, well. He'd have to be a town-checking-scum-jailer, and just... no.
I'm pretty sure Seppel is going to flip scum. Too much of his behavior indicates as such, and it outweighs being jailed, especially given how many targetable abilities the town has. Some kind of ninja kill would fit in perfectly to dodge the abundance of power roles.
Since we /do/ have a confirmed watcher, tracker and jailer.
I'm vanilla town - the only vanilla, probably out of some sick, twisted anti-modgaming scheme AI cooked up.
Let's lynch Scum!Seppel, and if he's somehow town, Zinda can do what he feels best over the night.
You're changing your story too much and have lied twice at least now. I no longer believe anything you say.
I'm waiting for zinda to get back in before I say anything else.
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I didn't know Zindabad was the jailer until he revealed himself to me after 5-6 posts I made dumping my reads and thoughts about the game.
The only 'lie' was that I was the jailer, instead of Zindabad. Which he fully supported.
The logic still remains:
I'm town, Zindabad is town, which makes either you or Seppel mafia.
I want to lynch Seppel today, because I strongly believe he's going to flip mafia.
If he somehow flips town, then Zindabad can jail either you or myself and prevent the kill.
But I really don't see Seppel flipping town at this point.
1.) You contradict yourself in the same post here:
From Iso:
"Seppel, proof I'm Masons with WoLG, if you have any doubt: THE PARACHUTE ROOM.
zindabad, proof I'm Masons with WoLG if you have any doubt: You didn't expect Survival Horror and Ataghan to come so close in the last FTQ; and don't worry about that Specialty, I got Zionite to take a look at it."
Zinda: Do you have any role related reasons to believe Voxx is town? The only thing that was said is that you believe he is town based on the chat you two had. He's claiming now to be a completely vanilla role in a game where the town is full of power roles and the only other vanilla was scum. It's a lot easier to look town to someone in a 1 on 1 chat than it is in a thread where other people can pick apart what you're saying.
You've already said that you thought I was town based on the masonry until the gollum thing came up. That's all been resolved, gollum is out of the game. I think Iso has provided substantial proof that he IS my mason and I'm not faking this. Seppel can confirm because now I've offered two different distinct pieces of information that only Iso could know: (The katana duel, and the parachute room.)
If I have to go between the possibility of a JOAT (I still need to finish going through all the claimed night actions because something smells fishy now that zinda is the jailer) and a vanilla, I'm going to want to lynch the vanilla. But Voxx's behavior has been less scummy than Seppel, and seppel's reaction to things makes me believe that he's lying about his role. I wrote him off as town because Iso's read on his first few posts.
The good news is that we have time to sort through all this. Seppel isn't going to vote himself to end the game even if Zinda comes to that decision, and Voxx isn't going to hammer himself if seppel and zinda vote him. I'm not hammering anyone until me and Iso finish our analysis.
Iso also wants re-stated full claims from everyone:
WoLG: Fili and Kili, townie mason brothers with Iso. I chose Iso from the replacement list to participate in the game.
Seppel was jailed last night, Zinda is cop cleared townie jailer, I'm behaviorally cleared townie proven mason. The only unaccounted for variable is Vanilla Voxx. He's the only person who could have committed the kill.
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Which means it's Seppel.
Look at how much targeted town power we have, and how many of those roles can pin down the person commiting the mafia kill - Tracker, Watcher, Jailer.
Seppel is probably what he claims to be - just mafia. I bet he redirected Drey's 1-shot into Stardust on N1, given Drey's 'did you do something to me' claim, (and then Drey being shot that night). He probably used an untargetable type shot last night, so that he wouldn't be blocked, and still commit the mafia kill. I don't really understand why he'd still have the jailer chat in that case, but that's something to take up with AI in the post-game.
DYH being shot last night when he was locked in on Seppel being scum, and could single handedly lynch him if he wished is another point against Seppel.
Look at Seppel's behavior at the end of yesterday, when we were lynching Stardust, and his back was to the wall - he tried to deflect to DYH and was shot down by Zinda.
Like. Nothing he's done this game has been remotely town, and the only point in his favor is getting jailed. Which is a big point.
But I maintain he has a way around that, because well. A kill happened. And it wasn't me.
With a 100% confirmed town Jailer, it still gives us some leeway. Let's lynch Seppel - if he flips town, Zindabad can choose between myself or WoLG to jail.
At this point, I acknowledge that it'll probably be me if it gets to that point, and WoLG would win.
But I think Seppel will flip scum.
You already suspected Voxx here, and the point about Caex neutral hunting because his team is underpowered jives with the revealed scum roles and the revealed neutral.
So supposedly his first three abilities are gone, which means his extra vote should be on someone, if he can give someone an extra vote, he's town in my book and we lynch Voxx for the win.
@Seppel: Who has the extra vote?
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I replaced Che.
I'm Dori, Town Vanilla.
I have no special abilities.
I hold my recognition as the strongest dwarf in the company with the highest esteem. Despite that, I don't know why the others in the company perceive me as a dandy. Of course they would never say as such to me, personally, given my strength. Regardless, I have given myself completely to Throin while in the Blue Mountains, and shall fallow him with my head held high. (Extreme paraphrasing of the flavor, re-wording it)
I don't have a win condition listed in the role PM.
-1-shot untargetable (Passive)
And I bet he has this. I bet it prevented the jail from taking effect, and let him make the night kill.
Remember, we know now that we have a confirmed town Jailer who targeted Caex - Seppel insisted we did not, because it would have contradicted his story of him being the reason Caex survived the Vig shot.
This nets the win 100% of the time if YOU are town.
From my perspective, it's obviously to lynch Seppel and jail you, but at this point I think you're legit, and Seppel is 100% scum.
You're right, he could be scum with his (Mostly) truthfully claimed role:
He claimed the redirect to self, and also 1 shot doc. He could have Doc protected himself and then redirected Drey's kill to his protected self. He lives, the 1 shot vig looses it's 1 shot. He then has his 1 shot untargetable left, which would make it so that the Jail couldn't target him. There's a chance he DOESN'T HAVE THE JAILER CHAT. He said that you jailed him, not Zinda. And you're saying Zinda is the real jailer. WE NEED ZINDA IN HERE TO CONFIRM IF SEPPEL IS JAILED.
(He could also have given that extra vote to himself and can hammer himself for the win if either you or zinda vote me or you.)
Seppel's definitely been the scummiest. He pushed for a massclaim, mod gamed, and tried to get me lynched after calling me confirmed town.
The point in his favor could have been blocked by his untargetability.
Yes it does. If seppel flips town, Zinda blocks you, we lynch you, game over town win. But lets wait and hear from Zinda first.
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Never saw that he lied about the vote, just re-read and you're right.
What is up with the lies this game people?
Hey look, we came up with the same logic. I'm still going to wait for Zinda and Seppel to come in before I vote because I'm paranoid and Iso is still re-reading.
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I think it worked out, too - if Zinda had been revealed as the Jailer yesterday, he was certainly dead last night over DYH.
I'm comfortable with Seppel dying, and want to point out that I pegged him as scum on my first post upon replacing in.
My gut was screaming at me that this was not the same Seppel from FHF in particular, where he also replaced in halfway-ish through day one.
Feel free to go look at that, if you want, the differences are stark.
Iso wanted me to point out: If we operate on the assumption that Seppel having his kill was a direct result of his one shot ability then even if we lynch you zinda can still jail seppel tonight there won't be a kill then we lynch seppel for the win.
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Regardless of which one of you we lynch the town still wins because zinda can jail the other.
Vote: Seppel
Zinda: can you ask the order of night actions? I know this information is often public knowledge depending on the mod.
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I was toying with the idea of counterclaiming Stardust as bulletproof or doc, because I knew there was a protective role, and Seppel/Stardust's whole gameplan seemed to revolve around there...not being one. Somehow.
When I had the idea to just claim Zinda's role to make it more obvious who the scum were, and possibly draw the kill.
I don't usually gambit as town like that, but knowing Zinda was 100% town and we could back each other up and iron things out helped.
Luckily, Zinda is absolutely town (If he's a godfather jailer, I'll eat my hat) so he's not going to come in a hammer for a scum win.
If Zinda and Seppel both come in stating that Seppel is in fact currently jailed by Zinda, then I'll unvote and rethink some more.
As of right now, Iso is convinced that Voxx had to have made the kill if Seppel is in jail chat with Zinda.
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Zindabad is 100% confirmed town jailer.
If Seppel somehow flips town (he won't), Zinda can just jail whoever he thinks is more likely scum between WoLG/Myself. Which will presumably be me at this point.
With Seppel's behavior, the plethora of town targeting roles and the weird claim full of defensives, he's almost certain scum that has some way to bypass the roleblock and still kill.
My successful use of my jail ability on Seppel has other ramifications. For one, it means he is not untargetable, because my ability targeted him (which I know since we've been mason chatting.) That means he was either lying about the one-shot untargetable or already used it.
Now, back to him and DRey on D2. DRey asked Seppel if he had done something with his [DRey's] kill on N1. This confirms that DRey knew Seppel had targeted him. Seppel later said he had redirected DRey to himself, and from town DRey's reaction, I believe this to be true. So if Seppel redirected DRey to himself, but is still alive, it stands to reason that he was one of the following: doc protected (no doc has claimed to protect Seppel), unkillable (why would he be unkillable as scum when his teammate Stardust already had an "unkillable" passive and there's only one town kill in the game?), untargetable (we know he isn't because I jailed him last night), or had a one-shot untargetability passive as he claimed.
Everything points to Seppel telling the truth about his first two abilities. Doccing and vote-granting have not been proven, but now I ask you if you think a scum player in this game has the following set of abilities:
1-shot redirect.
1-shot untargetability.
Passive immunity to roleblocks.
That's what Seppel would need to have in order to be scum at this point. (Or, the Mafia NK could be unblockable itself, but in that case why put my role in the game?)
...Of course, Seppel could be a roleblocker, now that I think about it. Roleblockers are often immune to being blocked themselves. This could also explain why he didn't bother to try killing Voxx (ostensibly the jailer) because he would have no fear of him, and also why DRey's kill didn't go off - that "redirect to me" story could've just been bull, and Seppel could've just blocked DRey.
Hmm. His behavior is the worst of everyone's, easily. I want to believe Voxx is town, and WoLG's role makes absolutely no sense on scum (masons with a non-voting player??)
So let's think about this some more.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
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I'm town. Please go back and re-read the jailer chat, and re-read the back and forth with Xyre, if you're having second thoughts.
That means it needs to be one of Seppel or WoLG.
WoLG has confirmed that he's masons with Iso, and it realistically doesn't make a lot of sense as scum, especially given the town power.
But. Remember Caex's claim? Bullheaded, he called it (I think) - where he couldn't be blocked or protected. Could Seppel have that role, with maybe a 1-shot redirect or something?
I've also never seen anyone notified when they were redirected. Roleblocked, yes. But busdrivings/redirects are generally unknowns that are meant to cause chaos behind the scenes, yes? The fact that Drey was /asking/ Seppel if he targeted him means that he didn't know for sure. I could see Seppel pouncing on that, killing Drey, and building a falseclaim off it, where he doesn't actually have the one-shots he's claimed.
Since we know Zinda protected Caex N1.
Wait, if Seppel claimed to redirect abilities from Caex to himself, wouldn't HE have been jailed instead of Caex?
Something doesn't mesh, there.
But why would he waste the vig shot like that if he were town? If he targeted Caex trying to deflect the mafia kill from him I'd understand it.
He's scum.
I don't know how he shot while still being jailed, but he did. Somehow.
Let's lynch him.
If he somehow flips town (I don't think it's even a remote possibility that he will), Zinda can jail me if he feels that's the right call.
I'm town, but I can't really fathom WoLG's role being mafia, so yeah. I think talking about the after-Seppel jailing is all a moot point, as I don't think the game will continue onwards after Seppel is lynched. It's just to provide you guys with some peace of mind, since you don't have the 100% confirmation of me being town that I do.
I'm confident enough that he's scum at this point that you can jail me tonight if he flips town. It'd hand the win to WoLG, but whatever. Seppel won't flip town.
I'll have Words with AI post-game about how dumb it is that the roleblock wouldn't affect him, but he still gets the jailer chat, though.
(also about being the only vanilla in a game to be modgaming bait).
I'm off to work, and have nothing else to say, I don't think. If anyone wants to ask questions about my behavior or mindset at any point throughout the game, fire away, and I'll try to explain in depth tonight. (Except Seppel. I don't answer questions from confirmed scum, it's a waste of time)
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I think Seppel is probably what Caex claimed to be.
I don't think he targeted Drey at all - because the only thing that Drey would have been notified by would be a roleblock, and that doesn't mesh with his reaction.
I think Seppel just took Drey's question and ran with it, forming the JoaT fakeclaim.
I get that it looks like I'm flailing, but the fact is that I can't explain exactly how he made the kill - except that if WoLG is town, Seppel made the kill, no matter how hard it is to believe.
All I can do is offer theories, and it won't be grounded in fact until Seppel flips Mafia Whatever, and we see.
Lynch Seppel.
Jail me.
We still win, unless Seppel is town. We lose in that scenario, because it makes WoLG scum. With a really dumb scum role.
Seppel won't flip town.
Now off to work seriously, just checked this before closing laptop, and was seeing Iso being dumb.
This is the PARACHUTE ROOM, where we STORE PARACHUTES.
Notable: Today is listed as "Endgame" and Voxx keeps wanting us to get to tomorrow.
Gotta go to therapy now.
The mafia do/did have some sort of roleblock -- while searching my flavor PMs for clues, I noticed that my doc protect on Zionite N2 failed.Never mind. The One Ring blocked my doc protect.Voxx is speaking in a lot of truths that shouldn't be truths.
Let's start from the beginning:
The jailer chat does not specifically say who the jailer is. I got the PM that said I was jailed and that I can talk with the jailer in a quicktopic. I'm allowed to paraphrase the conversation.
I got the notification that I was jailed a few minutes before day started. The first thing I did was pop in and ask the jailer (who I assumed was Voxx) what his plan was for winning now that I'm jailed -- no-kill, then get me lynched?
Six minutes later, I see that three people are dead, and I'm still under the assumption that Voxx jailed me. Ten minutes later, Zindabad sorts that out in the QT.
Let's go through what's happened toDay:
You have to admit that "I want a second vote because it would be cool if we both had one," sounds scummy as hell. With Wessel revealed as Gollum, however, I don't see how an extra vote could benefit you, so I just have to take you at your word that you wanted simply because it would be "cool."
Zindabad is the jailer, and he's 100% town for not hammering me.
@Voxx: Why did you say that Zindabad was 100% town before then?
This also means that we have no idea what Voxx's abilities really are. He was jailed N2, which likely means that Stardust performed the kill. Either that, or he's somehow immune to half-of-being-jailed, or something. Voxx said they were communicating.
This is the PARACHUTE ROOM.
In some bizarre and masterful play with the combined efforts of WoLG and Iso, yes, they could be scum. But not at all for the reasons you're giving.
Or, what is more likely, you have an ability like that. I think the vanilla claim was done out of a need to claim quickly, just as I got you to out that you were the SK-variant in FHF.
I don't see how you can just look past everything I've done and still suggest that I could be scum. I feel like I've repeated this multiple times:
LOOK AT THOSE QUOTES
DRey knew exactly that I had redirected his shot to myself. I received two messages, paraphrased to "you successfully made DRey target you" and "someone targeted you last night and your protection is gone." DRey probably received something like "You failed to kill Seppel."
Everything you said here is WIFOM. You could literally change "Seppel" to "Voxxicus" and it would be exactly what I have to say right back to you.
Are you serious? None of that happened. I was locked in on a Stardust/Wessel scumteam (which, hooray, was at least 100% anti-town), with you as a close second, and DYH as a distant third. And I dispelled the notion of DYH being scum because it was likely we'd have already lost if he were scum.
The only thing that could even give you that notion is the part where DYH jumped on me (for thinking he was a Governor), then off me (for showing him that it was obvious he was a Governor), then back on me (for pulling out the extra vote gambit).
In fact, throughout the entire game, DYH was singing an entirely different tune:
@WoLG:
Just to re-confirm, there is no extra vote.
Except I was jailed, and the 1-shot untargetability was used up on DRey's vig shot.
Remember how DRey talked about his shot N2:
Okay, imagine I'm scum for a second. What's the motivation to kill DRey here? If I knew he had used up his shot on me, why kill him? For real.
As an aside, this is probably the best game I've ever seen DRey play.
Again, this logic could be said in the exact opposite direction. And considering today is labeled "Endgame," I am absolutely not okay with this plan.
I really don't know how anyone could possibly believe I'm scum after all this. I've been scumhunting the entire game. I even came up with a Seppelplan(TM) to find out the truth behind WoLG. I tried to get Caex to out the "jailer." I wanted to lynch Wessel or Stardust. I've proven my damn role. I even breadcrumbed it in my first post.
I believe WoLG is town. Iso's attempts to communicate and actually play the game aren't what I would expect from a scum that received the role. WoLG vouching that they're confirmed town masons means that they're both town or both scum, negating any crackpot theories otherwise. Therefore, they're town.
Zindabad didn't hammer me, confirming that he's town.
This was a lot longer than I was expecting it to be, and I haven't even gotten to a review of Voxx. But it's not like we're in a rush.
Sweet. Plenty of time.
Increasingly set on Voxx at this point but I will continue to re-read.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Okay, then this is pretty simple then. Seppel was blocked and there was a kill. There's no way Zinda did it, and I know I didn't do it. Game over.
Vote: Voxxicus
Iso says: "Hi Voxx. Consider our perspective for a moment. These are the facts:
WoLG and I are Masons. I know he's town, he knows I'm town. We share the same role PM. This would be no different from having me actually in the game, except I just can't post. We are confirming each other to you guys - a typical confirmed Mason pair would not be going under any scrutiny at this point in the game with 2 dead scum and a Neutral in a Mini, so I have no idea why it's an issue that you would take this at face value.
Seppel was Jailed last Night and already used his claimed Untargetable shot. This is correlated by zindabad, who is confirmed town a la Zionite, and whose Night action last Night is accounted for via Seppel. Therefore, Seppel and zindabad could not have performed the kill last Night because zindabad Jailed Seppel and would have also blocked him.
That leaves you, Voxx, the ONLY claimed vanilla in this game. WoLG and I know we didn't perform an action last Night, zindabad has confirmed that Roleblockers can be Roleblocked, and AI has confirmed to WoLG and myself in our Mason chat that any player Redirected would be informed of the Redirection dependent on their role - example being that DRey would have received a PM that said, "You failed to kill Seppel last Night," or something to that effect.
That means Seppel's 1-Shot Untargetable is definitely expended - not only for that reason but because zindabad obviously targeted him last Night.
Unless you are proposing that the mafia team has TWO Untargetable variants (can't be targeted with kills when killing, 1-Shot Untargetable/Redirector, + claimed Doc shot), which is patently ridiculous, well...you've backed yourself into a corner.
There's no way anybody but Voxx is the last scum."
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I'm town.
My role PM says I'm town.
I've played like town.
I don't understand how Seppel made the kill, but he did. I'm telling you that even if you think it's a 95% chance that I'm mafia, that you should be lynching Seppel today, and having me jailed tonight.
There is no confirmation that Seppel actually targeted Drey.
I think Seppel does not have any one-shots - but instead is a permanent unblockable and unprotectable, like Caex claimed to be on D1 (Caex ended up being a goon).
I think Seppel took Drey's random question and ran with it, formulating the falseclaim.
But maybe he is what he claims to be and also has a 1-shot ninja kill or something, that doesn't let him be blocked for it.
I don't know. The only thing I know is that I'm town, and Zindabad is town.
Which means that Seppel or WoLG had to have made the kill last night.
Behaviorally WoLG has been pretty town.
Behaviorally Seppel has been scummy as all get out.
Please re-read Che's early play, re-read my interactions with Xyre, and Zindabad should re-read the Jailer chat.
Reconcile any of that with me being scum.
You can't, because...I'm not scum.
Lynch Seppel, and jail me. Because in the scenario where Seppel is scum, he made the kill while being jailed last night.
You're taking a stupid risk in lynching me and then having to jail him and hope it was just a 1-shot.
Maybe it was, and maybe it'll work after I flip town - but it's an unnecessary risk.
I was already jailed, and a kill still happened. Given that Stardust was a prime suspect that night, and I was mostly a consensus town read after the claim and my D1 behavior, why would the hypothetical Voxx/Stardust scum team have Stardust make the kill?
It makes no sense from a strategic perspective.
I want to just shake Iso in particular and try to knock sense into him.
Stop modgaming, and take the logical course of action.
It's a 'high power' game, after all, not a 'everyone has a power'.
I'm vanilla. AI certainly put that into the game for the very reason of being difficult to believe, and punish the town for modgaming, much as the tracker + watcher + cop 'dichotomy' did on D1.
I don't want to lose a game that we had won a couple days ago through pure PoE.
The remaining two scum had to be in the Wessel/Stardust/Seppel cluster, and they are. All three of them are scum, which is kind of hilarious.
Just... accept that there's the possibility that Seppel has some way to kill while being jailed, and use appropriate risk aversion. Lynch him, and jail me.
@Zinda - game is in your hands, obviously. Trust in your initial reads. Even if you think there's a good chance that I'm scum, and I acknowledge it's a reasonable assumption given the night actions, you have to admit that Seppel fits the part far, far better behaviorally. Go back over the previous jailer chat, and try to find any way that what I posted could come from a scum mindset. Look at my reads, look at the jailer gambit. The logical play here is to also acknowledge that there's a possibility that Seppel could have a permanent unblockable type role, and lynch him. In the incredibly unlikely event he flips town, you can jail me tonight. It'll hand the win to WoLG, but I don't even care at this point. There's no case to be made on him, which means Seppel will not flip town.
- Why would Seppel be unprotectable in a game where his team has no doc shots, and just to add to that (if we believe Seppel is scum and therefore fakeclaiming his 1-shot doc ability) the town ALSO has no doc shots?
- It is incredibly obvious why the Voxx/Stardust scumteam would have Star make the kill - maybe because Stardust has a passive that makes him invincible while he's targeting other players? Come on! You are better than that. This was a particularly shocking attempt at giving yourself town credit.
- The "watcher/tracker/cop dichotomy on D1" did not actually punish the town, because one of them was actually scum.
Adding to that, your appeals have become increasingly desperate and extremely reminiscent of caught scum. "I know I'm town and I have no other explanation for <this thing that's happening that incriminates me>, but my role PM says I'm town" is a class scum defense. The brutal, unavoidable truth is that I jailed Seppel and the mafia still killed, and the most obvious explanation for that is that Seppel is not mafia. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I believe him 100% town, and that takes some doing.
The day's title also declares that it is "endgame." This leads me to believe that we will not have the luxury of jailing you after mislynching Seppel. It's possible that you are the unblockable scum, although I also rate that pretty unlikely. The bottom line is that it's one of you and WoLG, and on present evidence, it's you.
I did re-read the mason chat, and I think you favored Wessel a little too strongly over Stardust as the lynch yesterday. I also think you leaned a little heavily on the idea of me repeatedly jailing you (you mention it twice) which may indicate that you actually wanted me to jail you because you are unblockable. If I had jailed you, and there was still a kill, the game would've been effectively over because I (and everyone else, once I told them about it) would've then incontrovertibly believed you town.
In fact, thinking about it more and more, I wonder if what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. I mean, you're telling me to believe that
Seppel killed even though he was jailed and even though there is no evidence of same (and there is actually evidence to the contrary.) Now let me ask you - if, according to you, Seppel could be unblockable scum, what exactly is stopping you from being unblockable scum, and when we lynch him, we die to unblockable you?
It has to be this way. If you're town, I jail WoLG and cross my fingers. I can't bring myself to believe that Seppel is scum. Alla fortuna - vote: Voxxicus.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Here's hoping Seppel is blockable.
Modgaming is bad, kids.
Seppel looked like scum, acted like scum, and he is scum.
Trust your initial reads next time, regardless of how night actions play out.
Christ.
Or you won't have the luxury of jailing Seppel after mislynching me... which is why I was pushing for Seppel's lynch today.
This whole day was stupid, and I don't know what else I could have done.
I'm vanilla town, WoLG's role is almost unfathomable to be scum, which only leaves Seppel. Given how many town targeting roles could PoE down the scum team, it's basic logic that they had some way to avoid detection or blocking. With a goon and a bulletproof flipped, and half of Seppel's claimed 1-shots being misdirection (redirect, untargetable) that don't make sense from a town standpoint, I don't understand why he wasn't lynched.
Beyond frustrating to lose a game that we had the scum team PoE'd by Day Two.
WoLG, opinions on Voxx's posts?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I thought Seppel had voted for me in his massive wall of tripe earlier.
This makes me vaguely uncomfortable in the 'spirit of the game' sense of things.
I mean, I'm town, obviously, but you wouldn't have thought I was if I hadn't thought it was a hammer and bleh.
As dumb as it is for us to lose the way we did, it's arguably even dumber for Seppel to lose because I was ticked off and frustrated in what I thought were post game comments.
I still don't think it's him, like.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
How about a no-lynch? Thoughts? I jail Voxx or WoLG, we see if there's no kill, if it doesn't work and I die, you guys settle it tomorrow?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
If you're going to lynch me, do it today so there's at least the chance of jailing Seppel overnight.
But I doubt it'd work, he's probably permanently unblockable or something. Maybe he has a 1-shot ninja kill that bypasses protection/roleblocking?
I don't know.
Only thing I know is that I'm town, and you guys basically are disregarding behavior, and trying to pin it down on roles. It's beyond frustrating from my end, since I know I'm town.
It has to be Seppel.
The only way WoLG would even be feasible is if WoLG is town and Iso scum, or something.
Or there's 2 mafia and 2 neutrals, as dumb as that'd be. Be kind of funny if WoLG was neutral after all.
But I strongly believe that it's Seppel. His voting patterns scream scum, his behavior screams scum, everything does, except for the jailing last night.
1 point in his favor for not being scum (that can be negated in a variety of ways) doesn't override the multitude of scummy things he did this game.
Go back and look at his entering-the-game post. He writes Caex off as the Cop. He made 2-3 posts 'clearing' Stardust as scum based on his behavior in a previous game, and interactions with Caex. He pushes for the mass claim to find the jailer, who he insists wasn't town. Go back and look at his rationale for the Cyouni lynch.
He just hopped from mislynch to mislynch to mislynch, and tried to lynch WoLG yesterday after setting up the neutral fearmongering with Caex on D2.
There's not a single thing he's done this game that is remotely town, and the only reason you're writing him off is because he was jailed. Joat with 3 1-shots, all protective? How often does that happen, townsided? Town joats almost always have at least one investigative shot.
If he's actually a JoaT, I bet he has a 4th one-shot that's a ninja kill. Or he could have just pounced on Drey's question and faked the entire role based off it.
I don't know. I can't know, until he flips.
But I'm just tired, at this point, and want it over. I went from extreme frustration to apathy rapidly.
I'm town. Seppel is 95% scum, WoLG/Iso is about 5%.
If you want to win the game 100%, lynch Seppel and jail WoLG.
But let's just end this one way or the other soon, since there's no arguments I can make that I haven't. Seppel's behavior all game was beyond atrocious. He's scum. And as to how he avoided the roleblock, all I have are wild theories. One of them is probably true, but I don't know which one.
What a shock.