Sorry - Finacee decided we were going to spend the holiday weekend at her parents' place.
Words don't describe the horror.
On lunch break at the moment, but will be able to post tonight.
Ultimately don't have much more to say, I've repeatedly said why Seppel is scum, over and over, and exasperatedly repeating it one more time won't change much.
Seppel's 'defense' was largely just him trying to brush things off as WiFOM, and handwaving other points.
Which is to be expected, it's the only thing he really can do as scum.
I will acknowledge that I completely misread the Cyouni thing - what Seppel said reeked of defensiveness, and when I went back to look, I saw 'swap Wessel and Seppel' and just assumed scum!Seppel was panicking at suspicion being on him.
Turns out he was just using that as a way to push the mislynch instead. 'beginning of my suspicion of Cyouni' indeed. Snerk.
But yeah, back to work with me, I'll have time to post more tonight.
I guess I can condense things a bit, then, but WoLG and Zindabad really need to have dialogue going between them.
We can't win without you both voting to lynch Seppel.
@WoLG - remove the jailing from the equation, and operate fully off of behavior. You were willing to lynch Seppel at the start of the day because his behavior this game has been so terrible. You even cast a vote on him.
Re-read my long post again if you need a refresher, but if nothing else, reconcile Caex pushing you as a neutral, and then Seppel trying to lynch you for being the neutral with Seppel being town. If you re-read Caex's 'claim', and consider that even the scum team had to believe that a cop in this setup was unlikely, just... it's painfully clear that it was a coordinated push from the scum team to push you as the neutral and power the lynch through. They probably did believe you were the neutral, hence Seppel's conviction and Caex doing what he did. But that push didn't come from town - it came from a scum team that was pinned and panicking, and desperately needed a lynch on non-mafia to gain breathing room.
Annnnd I need to be in a meeting in about two minutes, so yeah. I'm out.
Let's not forget I was jailed but sure, ignore that.
Oh look at him show how he was wrong about what happened with Cyouni, oh look at him turn it into an attack or else he'll look weak.
No reconciliation on the DYH madness.
Stardust did this same thing as Seppel. Caex did this same thing as Seppel. Whoop de ****. Oh Seppel did it first and then the scum followed suit? WOW NEATO.
DRey said Stardust and Seppel are scum. OH HE ALSO SAID VOXX IS SCUM BUT LET'S NOT DRAW ATTENTION TO THAT.
And other things that should absolutely show that I'm town and Voxx is scum. It's frustrating that this is even a question. This game should have been over a week ago.
There's been a lot that I haven't liked from both Seppel and Voxxicus, and there's been plenty that I have liked from them.
I really hated how Seppel posted that "this is me not hammering" bit after I had already unvoted Voxxicus. But then Voxxicus made his own equally terrible post when he tried to argue that me jailing him on N2 made him town. Those posts were abhorrent for the same reason: both were attempts to make their poster look more town. Seppel's felt completely fake. Voxxicus's felt desperate and flailing. It's tough to decide which is more indicative of a scum mindset, but I struggle to see what benefit either a townie or scum Seppel would derive from his post, as he was clearly winning the exchange between himself and Voxx at that point. Voxx's could have come from a townie who was on his last leg and was desperately trying to cling to anything that might cause him not to lose, but it doesn't jive with the generally sanguine attitude toward being lynched that Voxx has displayed so far today.
Building on that, what about Voxx's several posts regarding the possibility of Seppel being a one-shot unblockable killer? I've considered this theory and find it implausible. Just knowing what we know about the existing scum (to wit: one is vanilla and the other had a passive that made him unkillable whenever he targeted someone), it's difficult to fit unblockability into their team anywhere. If the 3rd scum has a passive that grants him unblockability, does the scumteam really have a vanilla and two players with passive abilities only? No actives? In a town full of them?
Actually, looking at the wording on Caex's ability again, it says he's untargetable whenever he targets another player...but the only thing he can target a player with is the Mafia NK. Maybe that isn't true. Maybe the Mafia have an ability pool or something like it, and that's where this unblockable kill that's about to end the game (as we can presume from the title "endgame") is going to come from. But then again, that doesn't make any sense either, unless we think Voxx really is scum and he trusted my word that I was going to jail Seppel, so he didn't need to use the unblockable kill last night and is saving it for tonight.
But then, returning to that "Endgame" title, it doesn't really match with the other half of my ability, which is the "protect the targeted player." I could still conceivably protect someone with that, or we could no-lynch, which probably wouldn't end the game (unless the scum are getting ready to unleash a double kill tonight.) So that's really not looking too accurate at this point and I'm probably WIFOMing myself way too much over it.
Anyway, what if the last scum has a passive sort of like Caex's where he becomes unblockable whenever he targets another player? Oh, that reminds me that the whole "Seppel actually has Caex's passive and that's where he got it from" thing doesn't make sense - why would a scum team with no doc have a passive that makes them unprotectable? But at any rate, most of those last three paragraphs were useless setup speculation that's getting us nowhere. We have to pick the right one today.
So to that end, let's look at behavior. WellOfLostGnomes:
Summary of WolG: Early standoffishness over the Xyre/DRey and Xyre/Zionite wallfests, pressures Che/Voxx, pressure on DRey, argues against Caex being vigged (no comment on the possible veracity of his claim), pressures Caex on his BS claim that he was trying to draw a RB, says that Caex's play has been terrible (but has barely mentioned him at all) but that he should be left in one piece for D2, possibly paves the road for Caex to still be alive D2 in post 345, peels off DRey in 360 under no pressure to do so, questions Che/Voxx, "re-reads" Stardust "to see if there's anything there", argues that two dead townies would mean a lynch on (town) DRey, defends Stardust and attacks Che/Voxx, finally accepts DRey as town, reluctant to attack Voxx after he replaces in, Iso appears and instantly latches on to Caex and Xyre, expresses interest in Cyouni and votes him without any real reasons, votes me with a /barn of Seppel's shocking "case" but then instantly lets me off after my defense, puts Stardust in his "solidly town" category despite not mentioning him for hundreds of posts, opts out of an easy vanilla mislynch on Voxx, WoLG calls Stardust solidly town while Iso calls him scum, reacts to Caex's allegations by referring to his role PM and his QT, "we should have lynched you yesterday" @Caex, when he was one of the people saying Caex should survive to D2, votes Stardust after his claim without interacting with him, opens D4 by considering Seppel, reckons it's Voxx by PoE, reckons that the weak scumteam needs a powerful role (like the jailer), keeps mentioning how he is cleared, leaves his options open on both Voxx and Seppel, saying Seppel is behaviorally scummier, continues to lean on Seppel for some of D4, switches to Voxx after both Seppel and I confirm that Seppel was jailed by me.
Voting pattern: CropCircles/Seppel (D1), DRey (D1), Che Guevara/Voxxicus (D1), Cyouni (D1), zindabad (D1), Cyouni (D1), Xyre (D1), DRey (D1), Caex Kothar (D2), Wessel (D3), Stardust (D3), Seppel (D4), Voxxicus (D4).
WoLG verdict:
The only real twinges I feel here are some slight hypocrisy over leaving Caex alive on D1, which WoLG urged us to do, and a relative lack of pressure on obvscum Stardust - to his credit, Iso repeatedly named Star as scum, as well as Caex. These are vastly overwhelmed by the way WoLG hopped off my wagon on D1 when he could've easily ridden it to a mislynch and his calm reasoning. My paranoia is dispelled. If WoLG/Iso are scum, we deserve to lose.
Voxxicus:
Summary of Che Guevara:
Names Xyre and Zionite as his "early game questionables", attacks Caex for sounding like caught scum, continues to attack Caex, urges the real cop not to counter claim and rabidly continues the attack on Caex, abruptly switches to DRey with no real reasoning, follows up on both DRey (refusal to claim) and Caex (general scumminess and bad claim), continues to implicate Caex based on his bad claim and argues he should've survive to see D2.
Che Guevara voting pattern:
Caex Kothar (D1), DRey (D1).
Che Guevara verdict: Hard to see what scumminess people were talking about here. Sure, his terse manner wasn't exactly the most conducive to scumhunting, but he was stuck on Caex for almost his entire time in the game. I guess it could've been bussing - he might've given up on Caex after the latter's bad claim and, realizing Caex would not survive for long, pressed for his death in a bid to garner town credit. But why argue for DRey to vig Caex? That's counterproductive to the scumteam. Better to have DRey shoot a townie and force the town to use a lynch on Caex.
Summary of Voxxicus: Opens by saying Caex and DRey are off the table and Seppel is his #1 scum suspect, argues that Che was "unbelievably scummy" (really?), defeatism regarding his impending lynch, attacks Xyre with interest in Stardust, me, and Cyouni, calls Caex town, dubious D1 vote analysis, argues for leaving Caex alive, fair point re: abundance of town power but no scum roleblock, Stardust disappears off the "cop check list", followed by all mention of Stardust disappearing, abrupt switch to Caex being scum who's skimming the game, retracted in his next post, appears to fish for a counterclaim on Caex in 759, scumlist at end of D2 includes Stardust, Seppel and Wessel at the bottom (with Star still furthest from the bottom), names Wessel, Star, and Seppel as top suspects at the beginning of D3 (after we have already began talking), continues to prefer Wessel (neutral) over Stardust (scum), gives up on Wessel and switches to scum Stardust over neutral Wessel/unconfirmed Seppel, hints overtly that he will probably jail Seppel during N3, inaccuracy regarding my opinions on the scum during D3 (he states I leaned more heavily on Seppel/DYH and he preferred Wessel/Stardust - not actually accurate. Stardust was more my choice than his), opens the day with an attack on WoLG as the logical choice considering the jailing, changes his mind re: WoLG even before WoLG proves his role, argues it must be Seppel due to behavior, heavy defeatism after his brush with death, good large post re: Seppel, poor response to Seppel's response.
Voxxicus voting pattern: Wessel (D3), Stardust (D3), Seppel (D4),
Voxxicus verdict: There's just no comparison in terms of behavior between Voxxicus and Seppel. Voxxicus has sounded rational and pro-town throughout the game, barring 3 important periods: when he was being ran up on D1, when he totally flipped out and started appealing to emotion in early-to-mid D4, and when he went back to defeatism following his near-lynch today. Voxxicus moved against Stardust while Seppel was losing his grip and flailing in the directions of DYH, Wessel, and WoLG on D3. Some slight inaccuracies in his defense do not mar an overall pro-town performance. I'm having real trouble seeing this guy as scum.
Seppel:
Summary of CropCircles:
Opens with a vote on Caex for his shifty inclusion of Star as a scum suspect, argues that Caex should remain alive overnight, returns to wanting to lynch Caex, argues that we need to direct DRey's kill.
CropCircles verdict:
Nothing to disagree with here. He was after Caex and DRey for the brief time he was in the game, although he never actually presented much in the way of evidence against Caex, preferring to go with analysis of the pros and cons of keeping his role in the game.
Summary of Seppel: Opens with a lot of defense of Stardust and pressure on Caex, possible coaching of Caex with the "giving you a chance" comment, dubious reaction to Caex's claim, argues for Caex to be left alive overnight, attacks Xyre, Caex and Star remain on his town list, "Iso's reads mirror mine" (except the part where he calls Caex obvscum, right?), shocking case against me, votes Cyouni without mentioning him in ages, "I've already claimed" comment as D1 ended (not accurate - he had breadcrumbed, not claimed), begins to distrust Caex at the end of D1, appears to hint at WoLG being a neutral with the talk of investigating "someone else", theory of one of WoLG/Iso being scum may be paving the way for a mislynch on him, argues that DYH is town because of his role, urges Caex to "out the jailer", presses for a massclaim (attempt to out the jailer he now knows exists?), tries to cast suspicion on Zionite, terrible post to me in 948 where he tries to claim town credit for derailing a wagon on Xyre (only to lead it onto another townie in Cyouni...), gives Stardust town credit after Caex's death, lies during his claim, argues that he redirected DRey because "Xyre/Caex/Cyouni were all likely town after D1" (Cyouni was already dead at that point, and Caex was scum as the day is long), launches into a case trying to prove that WoLG is Gollum, comments on all the things wrong with Stardust's claim after making no mention of his wagon, continues to rant on about Gollum after obvscum Stardust is caught out, feeble justification for a vote on Stardust long after he's dead in the water, ties Wessel together with Stardust, abruptly switches to Wessel being neutral and Voxxicus (!?) being scum with Stardust in 1084 despite not having mentioned Voxx for pages and pages, tries to take credit for my catch of Stardust talking about (one-shot) DRey targeting him N2, suggests lynching Voxx first instead of Stardust on D3, needless fearmongering about DYH using his ability (I think he's the only player who has even talked about this all game), asserts again that there is no town jailer, states that the only thing DYH has going for him is his claim (reversal from previous stance), opens D4 saying it must be WoLG but then immediately starts preparing the ground for an attack on Voxx based on rules text, attempts to portray his D3 behavior as "locked on a Stardust/Wessel scumteam with [Voxx] as a close second" (BS - he was voting Voxx almost to the end of the day and even while he was begrudgingly voting Stardust, he was still talking about Wessel being scum).
Seppel verdict: I can't see past his utterly awful D3. It's rare to see a meltdown of that caliber in a high-level game like this one - the panic in Seppel's posts was quite apparent as he tried to find an excuse to lynch anyone other than Stardust. In his favor is a positive interaction with DRey - I simply don't buy Voxx's theory that DRey somehow got the idea that Seppel had messed with his kill and Seppel just "took it and ran with it." Doesn't make sense. All the same, I think that Seppel is the last scum on behavior.
*****
So now here we are. Voxx has the stronger behavior; Seppel has the stronger mechanics and claim. But even as I say that, it's tough to see Voxx as scum due to his role. He claimed vanilla. He has shown no sign whatsoever of having other abilities. How can we justify a scumteam of two vanillas, or if we allow for the possibility of Voxx being unblockable, a scumteam of a vanilla, a guy with a mostly-useless passive (only one kill in the whole setup and it was 1-shot), and another guy with a mostly-useless passive. Compare that to the ludicrous levels of town power that we've seen.
No. It makes more sense for Seppel to be scum with his nebulous set of one-shots, at least one of which was a lie while others among them have not been proven. Plenty of room to fit "unblockable" in there somewhere. His justification for redirecting DRey on N1 doesn't track, his backing of Caex throughout D1 while also championing Star early D3 before floundering while trying to find an alternate target (oh, and neutral-hunting, a classic scumtell), and his behavior in general has been suspect at best.
Regarding the 'Voxx preferred Wessel/Stardust, Zinda preferred DYH/Seppel', I more meant that you were leaning towards the last two more than I was. Re-read posts 5, 6 and 7 in the jailer chat.
Is ultimately a moot point, though. We agreed that the scum resided in that grouping of 4, I just thought it was the first two, when you were more amenable to the last two being possible scum.
You might want to give a recap of the jailer chat, too, for WoLG, from your perspective - I'm not sure you ever have.
Ultimately we can't win without WoLG voting for Seppel.
I'm inclined to agree that if WoLG is scum, he deserves the win - I've re-read him and tried to keep a clear mind going in, and I have trouble picturing him being scum.
There's a touch of paranoia with Iso's fixation on me, but it's twisted WiFOM logic that doesn't really deserve merit.
I don't have much left to say, so it's going to come down to you convincing WoLG that I'm town. Your summary of each of us mainly highlighted the possible negatives - you might want to recap what the positive things I've done or said are, and what I've said and done that you feel is coming from a town mindset.
Remember that WoLG doesn't have access to the jailer chat, and that we never fully covered what went on in there and why you were so sure I was town, because of the jailer 'claim'.
If you or WoLG have any questions or want me to clarify anything I've said or done this game, ask - I'll be checking this as much as possible tomorrow (today? whatever), given that I'm working from home.
terrible post to me in 948 where he tries to claim town credit for derailing a wagon on Xyre
This is what I believe is the greatest behavioral proof that I'm town. As scum, why would I petition for my vote to not count on Xyre? Why wouldn't I just say "no, my vote shouldn't count because I drunkenly posted it in the wrong thread, Xyre is lynched, it's only fair"?
Because that's what I would totally do if I were scum in that situation.
argues that he redirected DRey because "Xyre/Caex/Cyouni were all likely town after D1" (Cyouni was already dead at that point, and Caex was scum as the day is long)
feeble justification for a vote on Stardust long after he's dead in the water, ties Wessel together with Stardust, abruptly switches to Wessel being neutral and Voxxicus (!?) being scum with Stardust in 1084 despite not having mentioned Voxx for pages and pages
Which Stardust vote? I'm pretty sure I wanted to lynch Voxxicus over Stardust since it was obvious Voxx was scum with one of Wessel or Stardust.
Do I have to keep talking about someone every page if he posts once in a blue moon?
God damnit. That's why I was waiting, Zionite. I wanted to hear WoLG's explanation. Because I'm a ring-bearer too.
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
That's what I was on about with Cyouni. I knew he was the wrong lynch because he was a ring-bearer, and I figured a neutral was likely - had to get us killed or something. I didn't clue in that WoLG could have been given a fake claim until after Caex called him neutral. So he did do some good for the town after all!
Whatever, it would have been good to get the explanation first, but you being Bilbo pretty much confirms that something is up with the ring-bearer title. Vote: WoLG.
Do you reckon? What gives you the impression that DRey tried to shoot you last night?
Even right here you acknowledge that I had already proven that I was responsible for DRey's missing shot.
How is that not further proof that I'm town? I don't know if you've ever played with me when I'm scum, but I'm good at it. If I were on a team with Stardust, I wouldn't let him have such an awful claim.
attempts to portray his D3 behavior as "locked on a Stardust/Wessel scumteam with [Voxx] as a close second" (BS - he was voting Voxx almost to the end of the day and even while he was begrudgingly voting Stardust, he was still talking about Wessel being scum).
You can have your BS back, good sir: My vote was on Voxx for 63 minutes.
And D3 went on for over 4,000 minutes.
Even if I was, what does it matter, anyway? All three are scum.
It's rare to see a meltdown of that caliber in a high-level game like this one - the panic in Seppel's posts was quite apparent as he tried to find an excuse to lynch anyone other than Stardust.
In his favor is a positive interaction with DRey - I simply don't buy Voxx's theory that DRey somehow got the idea that Seppel had messed with his kill and Seppel just "took it and ran with it." Doesn't make sense. All the same, I think that Seppel is the last scum on behavior.
So now here we are. Voxx has the stronger behavior; Seppel has the stronger mechanics and claim. But even as I say that, it's tough to see Voxx as scum due to his role. He claimed vanilla. He has shown no sign whatsoever of having other abilities. How can we justify a scumteam of two vanillas, or if we allow for the possibility of Voxx being unblockable, a scumteam of a vanilla, a guy with a mostly-useless passive (only one kill in the whole setup and it was 1-shot), and another guy with a mostly-useless passive. Compare that to the ludicrous levels of town power that we've seen.
Going off that principle, I'd guess a passive of "your kills can't be observed" or if the scum have a pool of abilities, "your night actions can't be observed"
You jailed him N2, remember? The only chance we'd get at observing anything out of Voxx would be on N1. And with Cyouni and Xyre dead by D2, it didn't matter.
No. It makes more sense for Seppel to be scum with his nebulous set of one-shots, at least one of which was a lie while others among them have not been proven. Plenty of room to fit "unblockable" in there somewhere. His justification for redirecting DRey on N1 doesn't track, his backing of Caex throughout D1 while also championing Star early D3 before floundering while trying to find an alternate target (oh, and neutral-hunting, a classic scumtell), and his behavior in general has been suspect at best.
* Why claim completely truthfully when you have the chance to capitalize on a gambit that takes like no time or energy out of anyone?
* You say "others have not been proven" well first off, of the three, two were proven with DRey, and the third failed. Flavor was that I didn't find Zionite at the dwarfish camp and I wandered aimlessly through the night.
I'm pretty sure I tried multiple times to open communication with Cyouni, and Cyouni dodged them all the time.
Not accurate. Between your catch-up posts and your vote on Cyouni directly following the deadline incident with Xyre, you mention him once, and it's just to say you want him or me lynched. No attempt to "open communication" with him. The next interaction you have with him is to tell him "Between Xyre and you, you are far worse." There was also that terrible "You have a very good point about Cyouni, Voxx" post, which I've asked you about twice now and to which you have never responded.
So let me ask you again: what exactly was it in this post by Voxxicus that was a "very good point"?
Bottom line is there's no interaction there at all. You talk at Cyouni, you don't talk to him. The only times you mention him on D1 are when you're bringing his name up as a lynch candidate.
needless fearmongering about DYH using his ability (I think he's the only player who has even talked about this all game)
1) What fearmongering?
Yeah. Fearmongering. On D1 and D3 you bring up DYH possibly needing to use his governor ability. In fact you're pretty much the only player in the entire game who talked about DYH's role. It suggests something of an undue concern that cannot be explained by a town motivation.
If you're a townie and you think DYH is a townie, which you said you did for most of the game, then you're not worried about DYH needing to use his role. In fact, you can pretty much just go with the flow as far as a governor is concerned. But you direct appeals at DYH to use/not use his ability on several occasions. It seems like you were really worried about DYH making it to endgame with his shot still intact.
(Having looked back, I concede the point about a "reversal of stance" on DYH.)
We had outed so many roles that we needed accountability for people's actions back then.
Really?
D2 claimed and living roles:
Zionite (confirmed town due to CC'ing Caex, one-shot)
DYH (one-shot ability that everyone would know about)
DRey (one-shot vig whose ability you had already affected)
Tell me again about how those roles needed accountability? Much more likely is that you wanted to out the town protective role, i.e. the jailer.
I protected him that night, my protect failed, and he didn't die. He listed you as a clear, and he enabled a speedlynch on Caex.
That's the epitome of suspicious behavior and results.
He claimed one-shot - that's enough reason to still be alive - and you seemed to find him OK when you decided to use your own one-shot doc ability on him.
This is what I believe is the greatest behavioral proof that I'm town. As scum, why would I petition for my vote to not count on Xyre? Why wouldn't I just say "no, my vote shouldn't count because I drunkenly posted it in the wrong thread, Xyre is lynched, it's only fair"?
Because that's what I would totally do if I were scum in that situation.
Considering that it made no difference whatsoever because Xyre and Cyouni were both townies, I don't see how it's a positive at all for you. It was a moment of good sportsmanship, but I'm afraid that scum can be good sportsmen too. If Xyre had been town and Cyouni scum, this would be a good point in your favor. But there was nothing at stake for you there.
argues that he redirected DRey because "Xyre/Caex/Cyouni were all likely town after D1" (Cyouni was already dead at that point, and Caex was scum as the day is long)
I've done stupider things.
Not exactly a compelling defense. It also doesn't take into account how Cyouni was already dead when you tried to argue that.
You said nothing about Stardust while he was being run up, preferring to fearmonger over Gollum, then after he was forced to claim you began to say how scummy he was (talking past him rather than engaging him directly, in the classic style of a bus) and finally vote him with the flimsy justification of "he was ignoring me but now that he posted something to me I'll vote him."
I'd say this is the strongest point against you - the way you totally ignored Stardust while he was in trouble, preferring to neutral-hunt instead, then brought the bus when he was already doomed (viz. after he claimed.)
Even right here you acknowledge that I had already proven that I was responsible for DRey's missing shot.
That's not what I was talking about. My point against him was not that something happened to DRey on N1, it was that he was trying to come up with an explanation for how he survived DRey's shot on N2...which never happened, because DRey was a one-shot and had already claimed that.
How is that not further proof that I'm town? I don't know if you've ever played with me when I'm scum, but I'm good at it. If I were on a team with Stardust, I wouldn't let him have such an awful claim.
WIFOM.
I've played against you as scum once. I was town in Annorax's Bastard Mod Mafia.
opens D4 saying it must be WoLG but then immediately starts preparing the ground for an attack on Voxx based on rules text
* PoE says it's WoLG
* Rules text implicates Voxx
* What? Zindabad jailed me? This requires more analysis.
Like I said, you opened the day saying it must be WoLG, then switched to Voxx before even reading my post in the jailchat. At 5:39 pm you posted this, and at 5:45pm you confirmed that you had just read my jailchat posts.
You can have your BS back, good sir: My vote was on Voxx for 63 minutes.
And D3 went on for over 4,000 minutes.
Even if I was, what does it matter, anyway? All three are scum.
I'm sure I don't have to explain that Wessel and Stardust were not the same kind of scum, and that opting to pursue neutral Wessel while real scum Stardust was crashing and burning is a glaring behavioral red flag.
Furthermore, you were voting Voxx here in post 1102 (5/15, 2:27pm EST) and then later unvoted him and voted Stardust in post 1111 (5/15, 8:30pm EST), so I'm not sure where you're getting that "63 minutes" figure from (totally made up?), but that isn't even what I was talking about.
I admit I was wrong about voting Voxx to the end of D3, but you were voting WoLG and Wessel for almost the entire day and for the entire period of time on D3 before Stardust claimed. The point is that you were pursuing anybody but Stardust.
So now here we are. Voxx has the stronger behavior; Seppel has the stronger mechanics and claim. But even as I say that, it's tough to see Voxx as scum due to his role. He claimed vanilla. He has shown no sign whatsoever of having other abilities. How can we justify a scumteam of two vanillas, or if we allow for the possibility of Voxx being unblockable, a scumteam of a vanilla, a guy with a mostly-useless passive (only one kill in the whole setup and it was 1-shot), and another guy with a mostly-useless passive. Compare that to the ludicrous levels of town power that we've seen.
Going off that principle, I'd guess a passive of "your kills can't be observed" or if the scum have a pool of abilities, "your night actions can't be observed"
So there's no unblockable kill, right? In that case you should have no objection to being lynched today while I jail Voxx tonight and we lynch him tomorrow.
* You say "others have not been proven" well first off, of the three, two were proven with DRey, and the third failed. Flavor was that I didn't find Zionite at the dwarfish camp and I wandered aimlessly through the night.
I accept that you redirected DRey's kill. There's no proof that you were ever untargetable (you could've had some other effect, or - even better! - you could've just been a bus driver who redirected DRey to the unkillable Stardust) and there's no proof that you ever had a doc ability. You could've targeted Zionite with any other non-killing ability and you would've got the same flavor.
It's nice that you can be so blase about this, but calling the two confirmed scum town and attacking anyone but them throughout the game is not so easily dismissed with a "so?" In fact, it's the strongest behavioral evidence there is. Your interactions with townies are lousy. Your interactions with scum are lousy. You are scum.
* My behavior in general: What do you mean? Would you rather I bring the StarcraftSeppel back?
Yeah, I almost would, because the Starcraft Seppel was town. You aren't.
In fact, this isn't the first time you've tried to bring that up as a point in your favor. In the terrible "look at the stuff I did" post, you pointed to how you haven't been "trolling me." That's actually one of the reasons I suspected you throughout D3 - because you have been so different to your Starcraft game. You've been far more reminiscent of your Annorax's Bastard Mod meta here - more low-key than usual, less analytic, less spammy.
I admit that I could be wrong and that if I am, we will almost certainly lose the game. But Voxx is convincing and you're anything but. I've put my time into this game, I've combed through hundreds of posts, and I'm about as confident about this decision as I'm going to get.
I'd like to hear from WoLG/Iso before we proceed, but I'm heading out in a little less than an hour and I'm not sure I'll make it back before deadline, so I'll probably cast my vote.
I'm pretty sure I tried multiple times to open communication with Cyouni, and Cyouni dodged them all the time.
Not accurate. Between your catch-up posts and your vote on Cyouni directly following the deadline incident with Xyre, you mention him once, and it's just to say you want him or me lynched. No attempt to "open communication" with him. The next interaction you have with him is to tell him "Between Xyre and you, you are far worse." There was also that terrible "You have a very good point about Cyouni, Voxx" post, which I've asked you about twice now and to which you have never responded.
So let me ask you again: what exactly was it in this post by Voxxicus that was a "very good point"?
Bottom line is there's no interaction there at all. You talk at Cyouni, you don't talk to him. The only times you mention him on D1 are when you're bringing his name up as a lynch candidate.
Huh. Well I was thinking a lot to him.
And I'm not sure what I was thinking about the point, but it had something to do with voting and WoLG.
needless fearmongering about DYH using his ability (I think he's the only player who has even talked about this all game)
1) What fearmongering?
Yeah. Fearmongering. On D1 and D3 you bring up DYH possibly needing to use his governor ability. In fact you're pretty much the only player in the entire game who talked about DYH's role. It suggests something of an undue concern that cannot be explained by a town motivation.
If you're a townie and you think DYH is a townie, which you said you did for most of the game, then you're not worried about DYH needing to use his role. In fact, you can pretty much just go with the flow as far as a governor is concerned. But you direct appeals at DYH to use/not use his ability on several occasions. It seems like you were really worried about DYH making it to endgame with his shot still intact.
We had outed so many roles that we needed accountability for people's actions back then.
Really?
D2 claimed and living roles:
Zionite (confirmed town due to CC'ing Caex, one-shot)
DYH (one-shot ability that everyone would know about)
DRey (one-shot vig whose ability you had already affected)
Tell me again about how those roles needed accountability? Much more likely is that you wanted to out the town protective role, i.e. the jailer.
I felt that the people who were scum needed accountability.
And again, why in the world would I believe that Caex was jailed? I'm not able to follow your thought process at all.
I protected him that night, my protect failed, and he didn't die. He listed you as a clear, and he enabled a speedlynch on Caex.
That's the epitome of suspicious behavior and results.
He claimed one-shot - that's enough reason to still be alive - and you seemed to find him OK when you decided to use your own one-shot doc ability on him.
This is what I believe is the greatest behavioral proof that I'm town. As scum, why would I petition for my vote to not count on Xyre? Why wouldn't I just say "no, my vote shouldn't count because I drunkenly posted it in the wrong thread, Xyre is lynched, it's only fair"?
Because that's what I would totally do if I were scum in that situation.
Considering that it made no difference whatsoever because Xyre and Cyouni were both townies, I don't see how it's a positive at all for you. It was a moment of good sportsmanship, but I'm afraid that scum can be good sportsmen too. If Xyre had been town and Cyouni scum, this would be a good point in your favor. But there was nothing at stake for you there.
Why push a lynch on an unknown when you can get rid of an information role? That's just dumb.
I am so not a good sportsman as scum. But don't tell me I told you that if it ever comes up in a game.
argues that he redirected DRey because "Xyre/Caex/Cyouni were all likely town after D1" (Cyouni was already dead at that point, and Caex was scum as the day is long)
I've done stupider things.
Not exactly a compelling defense. It also doesn't take into account how Cyouni was already dead when you tried to argue that.
Three info roles that are all likely SLASH CONFIRMED town (geez you know what I mean), toughguy makes sense. DRey screaming that he wanted to shoot Caex helped convince me.
It was a play that hurt our team. These are just things I can't argue, like when I shot the confirmed doc in Joss Whedon Mafia.
You said nothing about Stardust while he was being run up, preferring to fearmonger over Gollum, then after he was forced to claim you began to say how scummy he was (talking past him rather than engaging him directly, in the classic style of a bus) and finally vote him with the flimsy justification of "he was ignoring me but now that he posted something to me I'll vote him."
I'd say this is the strongest point against you - the way you totally ignored Stardust while he was in trouble, preferring to neutral-hunt instead, then brought the bus when he was already doomed (viz. after he claimed.)
I regarded him as town for most of the game, then when things start sounding fishy, I ask questions (TO him, not OVER him), he ignores me, repeatedly, and I want at least one damn post where he addresses me and my concerns. I get one where he just addresses me, too scared to actually respond to my posts to him, and so I vote him.
Even right here you acknowledge that I had already proven that I was responsible for DRey's missing shot.
That's not what I was talking about. My point against him was not that something happened to DRey on N1, it was that he was trying to come up with an explanation for how he survived DRey's shot on N2...which never happened, because DRey was a one-shot and had already claimed that.
Oh. Hahaha, I didn't even see that. I thought he was talking about N1. Oh god it's even funnier now.
How is that not further proof that I'm town? I don't know if you've ever played with me when I'm scum, but I'm good at it. If I were on a team with Stardust, I wouldn't let him have such an awful claim.
WIFOM.
I've played against you as scum once. I was town in Annorax's Bastard Mod Mafia.
Terrible game.
But I got three cops claiming that they got a guilty on me and I didn't get lynched.
I'm more offended than frustrated that you think I'm scum in this game. Dude.
opens D4 saying it must be WoLG but then immediately starts preparing the ground for an attack on Voxx based on rules text
* PoE says it's WoLG
* Rules text implicates Voxx
* What? Zindabad jailed me? This requires more analysis.
Like I said, you opened the day saying it must be WoLG, then switched to Voxx before even reading my post in the jailchat. At 5:39 pm you posted this, and at 5:45pm you confirmed that you had just read my jailchat posts.
You can have your BS back, good sir: My vote was on Voxx for 63 minutes.
And D3 went on for over 4,000 minutes.
Even if I was, what does it matter, anyway? All three are scum.
I'm sure I don't have to explain that Wessel and Stardust were not the same kind of scum, and that opting to pursue neutral Wessel while real scum Stardust was crashing and burning is a glaring behavioral red flag.
Furthermore, you were voting Voxx here in post 1102 (5/15, 2:27pm EST) and then later unvoted him and voted Stardust in post 1111 (5/15, 8:30pm EST), so I'm not sure where you're getting that "63 minutes" figure from (totally made up?), but that isn't even what I was talking about.
I admit I was wrong about voting Voxx to the end of D3, but you were voting WoLG and Wessel for almost the entire day and for the entire period of time on D3 before Stardust claimed. The point is that you were pursuing anybody but Stardust.
So now here we are. Voxx has the stronger behavior; Seppel has the stronger mechanics and claim. But even as I say that, it's tough to see Voxx as scum due to his role. He claimed vanilla. He has shown no sign whatsoever of having other abilities. How can we justify a scumteam of two vanillas, or if we allow for the possibility of Voxx being unblockable, a scumteam of a vanilla, a guy with a mostly-useless passive (only one kill in the whole setup and it was 1-shot), and another guy with a mostly-useless passive. Compare that to the ludicrous levels of town power that we've seen.
Going off that principle, I'd guess a passive of "your kills can't be observed" or if the scum have a pool of abilities, "your night actions can't be observed"
So there's no unblockable kill, right? In that case you should have no objection to being lynched today while I jail Voxx tonight and we lynch him tomorrow.
It's possible. There could even be a "first-strike" kill. There's got to be some reason Voxx is pushing for a lynch instead of a no-lynch (which he has already declared will end in all four of us being alive on D5).
If the game was confirmed to be on autowin, then sure, I wouldn't care about being lynched.
* You say "others have not been proven" well first off, of the three, two were proven with DRey, and the third failed. Flavor was that I didn't find Zionite at the dwarfish camp and I wandered aimlessly through the night.
I accept that you redirected DRey's kill. There's no proof that you were ever untargetable (you could've had some other effect, or - even better! - you could've just been a bus driver who redirected DRey to the unkillable Stardust) and there's no proof that you ever had a doc ability. You could've targeted Zionite with any other non-killing ability and you would've got the same flavor.
I wish I could just smack you with the big black bolded words in my inbox.
It's nice that you can be so blase about this, but calling the two confirmed scum town and attacking anyone but them throughout the game is not so easily dismissed with a "so?" In fact, it's the strongest behavioral evidence there is. Your interactions with townies are lousy. Your interactions with scum are lousy. You are scum.
I'm blase about it because it's null.
To be fair, I called Caex town on the provision that he not be alive D2. Sure, you can look back at the game now with perfect insight and say, "Yeah, Caex is obvscum," But using knowledge we have now to implicate that I should have known it then is like talking to an angry spectator in the postgame.
In fact, this isn't the first time you've tried to bring that up as a point in your favor. In the terrible "look at the stuff I did" post, you pointed to how you haven't been "trolling me." That's actually one of the reasons I suspected you throughout D3 - because you have been so different to your Starcraft game. You've been far more reminiscent of your Annorax's Bastard Mod meta here - more low-key than usual, less analytic, less spammy.
If you're using Starcraft Mafia as a base for judging my behavior, you're doing it wrong. You even just recently saw me in Ataghan. Though in Ataghan I put forth a massive amount of effort to make it up to you for how I acted in Starcraft. This is pretty much my normal towngame.
Less than three hours until deadline, and I need to get to sleep. 4 am comes early.
Hopefully WoLG drops by to win the game, but I'm not optimistic.
If we do no lynch, I guess jail Seppel again. There's always the chance that it was a 1-shot that let him bypass the jail last night, rather than a full passive.
I think Seppel really thinks we're going to no lynch, or he's just trying really really hard not to panic. I cannot imagine a town Seppel that would be at L-1, at what is apparently LyLo, and not completely losing his grip. He must think WoLG isn't going to show.
I'm not moving my vote, but I will stay up until 12 to see this out just in case WoLG does arrive and wants to talk about something.
Can I just say how ludicrous it is that the other "confirmed townie" has decided to do a runner at the eleventh-and-a-half hour? If WoLG is scum I'm going to rage for weeks.
Vote: Seppel
One of the reasons I have been trying to get zinda to respond to the game is because I knew I wasn't goi.g to be online today. I'm glad thw soitwe decided to work ony phone whil I'm in this building.
Game over, good game everyone.
Private Mod Note
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-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
As the last few hours of Daylight trickled away behind the Misty Mountains, Galadriel and the three remaining dwarves returned to the tunnels of Goblin-Town to search for signs of Bilbo. Though they were weary, they knew that their ordeal must end, one way or the other.
Galadriel turned her magic inward, hoping to pierce the shadows with her light. She could no longer sense the hobbit's life force, which pained her greatly. The goblin caves were filled with darkness, the same darkness that plagued Dol Guldur. She vowed to purge it, even if it took the remainder of her power.
Fíli and Kíli maintained a careful lookout, each holding a blazing torch. They crept silently and seemed to communicate without words, as if each already knew what the other was thinking.
Dori was sullen. He never forgave himself for allowing Thorin to perish, but underneath his dejected exterior, he was burning with rage. Rage waiting for an outlet. He would make them pay.
The four lost track of time as they navigated an endless number of winding corridors and side passages. Just as the dwarves were about to give up hope of making any progress before exhaustion set in, a tiny goblin snuck up behind Dori, knife in hand. Galadriel cried out just in time, using a quick spell to shield Dori from the wicked dagger. As the goblin turned to run, Kíli put an arrow between its eyes. A gurgling noise called from somewhere in the depths of the mountain.
"Kill them! Kill them and bring their weapons to me!"
A swarm of goblins seemed to erupt out of the stones around the dwarves, who were quickly buried under their weight. Galadriel focused her energy in Nenya, then released it in a wave of force that blew the scrabbling mob away. The sturdy dwarves took a moment to recover from the impact, then put blade and bolt to the squealing imps. Within minutes, the four were able to follow a trickling stream of goblin blood to the one who threatened them with death.
The Great Goblin leered at the intruders from atop his toilet-throne. The foul smell filling the chamber left little to the imagination. A taunting chant began echoing throughout the cavern.
"Bones will be shattered, necks will be wrung!
You'll be beaten and battered, from racks you'll be hung!
You will die down here and never be found!
Down in the deep of Goblin-Town!"
Before the goblin army could bear down upon them, Dori charged the Great Goblin, bellowing with fury. With astonishing agility, the corpulent chieftain grabbed his royal scribe and used the unfortunate creature as a meat shield, deftly deflecting the dwarf's flail. However, Dori's sword sunk straight into the Great Goblin's flabby thigh. Howling in pain, the Great Goblin smashed the side of Dori's head with his staff, knocking the warrior aside. Galadriel drew close enough to fully bind the Great Goblin, leaving him immobile and vulnerable to attack. Fíli took the opportunity to rush forward and slash open the Great Goblin's quivering stomach. The king of Goblin-town fell forward onto the dwarves, knocking them down into the pit underneath his massive bulk. Responding to this quick turn of events, Galadriel summoned her most horrific visage, terrifying the goblin minions and driving them away before her.
Wincing, Galadriel slowly made her way down to where the dwarves were buried, as they were, under the crushing weight of the Great Goblin's corpse. It took her some time to carefully navigate the treacherous walkways, given that they were built to support much smaller crossers, but eventually reached the lowermost level. As the elven lady approached her fallen companions, she stopped abruptly. Someone was already there, observing the ludicrous scene. But it was impossible. It couldn't be...
"Mithrandir?"
Gandalf turned to face his old friend and simply smiled.
Seppel has been lynched.
The Great Goblin, Mafia Chieftain
Passive - Resourceful (Whenever you target another player, choose one - You can't be roleblocked this Night; or you can't be tracked this Night; or you can't be watched this Night.)
How dare those wretched dwarves enter your domain? The intruders even had the nerve to threaten you with Elvish blades. But they underestimate you. As the Great Goblin, you have a goblin minion for every mission. Their sneakiness is matched only by their disposability.
Congratulations to the town and Wessel on their victory!
Dori, Town Vanilla
You have no special abilities.
You take pride in being the strongest dwarf in the company. Yet, you have no idea why the others see you as a dandy. Not that they dare insult you to your face. At any rate, you devoted yourself to Throin while you lived in the Blue Mountains and follow him with pride.
Fíli and Kíli, Town Brothers
Passive - Brothers in Arms (As the game begins, choose a player on the replacement list. That player is no longer a replacement and can discuss the game with you at any time.)
Inseparable since your youth, you practiced your swordsmanship together until you were the best fighters of your generation. As Thorin's nephews, you are able to achieve a great deal of mischief without reprimand, but you would give your lives for him without a second thought.
Lady Galadriel, Town Ring-bearer Jailer
Passive - Telepathy (Whenever you target another player, you may communicate with that player in a QT during the next Day.)
Jail (Another target player can't perform actions or be targeted this Night.)
You did not join the company to aid the greedy dwarves in their quest for riches. You joined because you perceive the shadow in Dol Guldur and recognize its nature. It is your fervent hope that you are wrong, but it would be folly not to act. Let the Light shine forth.
Spectator chat (contains links to each other QT [no posts were made in the jailer chat Day Two, so that QT was deleted])
Thanks to everyone for playing, and special thanks to Cyouni, DYH, Seppel, and Voxxicus for replacing in!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I really need to work on my endgame when there's a string start. I either start off badly and build momentum or I begin well and start failing (or just end up dying).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've been lurking in this game for the past couple of weeks (really just catching the last day). As someone that has never played in a Mafia game it was really fun to watch this one develop.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah, DRey's reads were extremely accurate. Bah. GG town. DRey lying about trying to kill me N1 was a nice touch.
We might have won if Wessel hadn't counterclaimed Gollum to prevent WoLG from being lynched! I just can't wrap my head around the logic of doing it, but it seemed to have worked out so I guess I can't criticize the results.
Apparently I don't do "recklessly aggressive" as scum. Good to know so I won't do it again and be forced to think up a complicated falseclaim that will still get me insta-lynched D2. So bah for that too.
I was also amused, as I said in the spectator chat, that nobody was giving me the credit for being clever with my claim and my WellofLostIsos neutral gamble. It was hilarious and complimentary and insulting and exasperating all at once.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
In my experience, if someone tries really hard to paint someone as a Neutral, that person is scum trying to discredit town. When Brinatoo hypothesized that I might be a Neutral in Seasons, scumAsianInvasion and scumDRey picked that theory up and ran with it like thieves in the Night.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In my experience, if someone tries really hard to paint someone as a Neutral, that person is scum trying to discredit town. When Brinatoo hypothesized that I might be a Neutral in Seasons, scumAsianInvasion and scumDRey picked that theory up and ran with it like thieves in the Night.
Your role was also ridiculous (as in: too ridiculous to be town), so you might want to find a less outlandish example (considering you insist on bringing it up). We (at the very least, I) legitimately thought you were a neutral.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well-played by everyone still alive, and especially the late-game analysis by Zindabad. Major props to him for slogging through an entire read-through.
I replaced into this game and realized immediately that I was going to be the only one on my team left alive in the endgame. "Eh, no biggie," I thought, "I like mafia games on hardmode."
Then the power roles started trickling in:
Quote from Seppel in Scumchat »
@Stardust: Sorry about how D3 went. The town's power level is insane. If we win this, it will be the greatest achievement ever.
1-shot Cop
1-shot Vig
Watcher
Tracker that optionally grants an extra vote
Governor
Jailer
Hydra
Vanilla
Neutral that can win easily
vs.
Goon
Ninja
Unkillable
My attempts to save Stardust fell flat when he started stepping on rakes and it was impossible to reconcile anything good when he completely ignored me. Had I known that was what would happen, I would've just bussed Stardust to oblivion.
I might as well have been a one-man scumteam.
@Zindabad: The correct answer about the Xyre debacle is that, since none of my buddies were candidates to be run up, getting another townie to claim was the best play. Also, take everything I said in those last few posts with a grain of salt. Much of it isn't true, but I had to shove my face into having a townie mindset.
=======
All in all, I feel I performed well for, considering this was the hardest game of mafia ever (excluding trainwrecks like Starcraft that had no chance of being won). I know where I could have improved.
Had I channeled my inner Chamber, I would been around for that short two-hour span where I could've hammered, and won the game. So I consider this game a theoretical win for the scum as well.
We might have won if Wessel hadn't counterclaimed Gollum to prevent WoLG from being lynched! I just can't wrap my head around the logic of doing it, but it seemed to have worked out so I guess I can't criticize the results.
I recognized it immediately as an honest claim that cleared yet another town. I thought it was a good play and good for the team, so I let Wessel win. I knew that from stressing behavioral reads ALL GAME LONG that Seppel would eventually get caught because of this play.
I had Caex as scum by Day 1 (his claim), so I was able to position my reads on everyone around that. Stardust shot himself in the foot with the fence-sitting on Caex and then supporting leaving him alive; he should have picked one or the other. Take a page from zindabad: if your buddy's going down, bus him like you get bonus points for it.
That said, I cannot believe this game was won by town with only 12 players and a neutral in the mix. We could have easily gone to lylo much earlier if Caex had played better. This game should have been 13p.
Well, good game all! Well done in the final day there zindabad! And good work digging yourself out of that hole Voxxicus. I didn't think you'd pull it off.
Now that we're out of the game, my sincere apologies to Zionite for that one post. I really was frustrated, but should have stepped back. Sorry.
Umm... otherwise, that whole deal stating DRey was roleblocked was pretty stupid on my part. He actually did target me Night 2 and I actually did survive because I was bulletproof, but I wouldn't have known that as town of course. I feel like I did okay in this game, but need to get better in general if I'm going to be playing among giants.
Lots of commentary but no time. Just to clear some things.
1)I didn't shoot Caex, while it's true I identified Zion as the cop and Caex as the scum, even with 99% certainty I would not be so gutsy to shoot the unCCed cop and end up destroying my team. I know if I did that and Caex flipped town everyone would blame me forever.
2)I was roleblocked by Seppel, and I knew this, not because I'm a self watcher nor any hint from AI but because I reread him and he claimed town roleblocker and that the scum had a doc. I was trying to make him confess by revealing I knew it (when I didn't) because it make no-sense for him to roleblock me as town considering he repeatedly said he read me as the town vig. The day ending short put a brake on this plan.
3)I did really shot Star (my shot wasn't spent after roleblock), it was amusing that he was lynched for lying about being shot by me when I was just a one-shot vig.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Question for the scum team: Why was I never shot? Or zindabad for that matter?
@AI: What would have happened to Wessel if I were killed by scum? What if Wessel and mafia targeted me at the same time?
One of the big plays for me was on Day 1 declaring that I wasn't going to be the lynch today and not claiming at L-2. Had I claimed then, this game might have been a total train wreck. I just wasn't going to toss away my cop shot to appease Xyre.
Never had time. You came out as the cop Day 2, but we figured protective roles would be on you, so we opted to kill DRey and RB you. Night 3 Seppel had to kill the governor to make a quick lynch a possibility, and I think he had a scum jailer in mind at the time. Could have killed zindabad instead there, I guess. Worked out okay with zindabad as the jailer anyway since that was our only chance of winning (roleblocking Seppel). Too bad modgaming takes a back seat when you're playing with good players.
One of the big plays for me was on Day 1 declaring that I wasn't going to be the lynch today and not claiming at L-2. Had I claimed then, this game might have been a total train wreck. I just wasn't going to toss away my cop shot to appease Xyre.
Hahaha, it's funny how opinions are diverse. Actually I think those were your lows. By claiming you weren't going to be lynched D1 you claimed power. That was the reason of my backtrack for you but if I was scum you weren't going to deliver a result, that kind of play is bad imho.
Also I quite disagree with you not counterclaiming Caex, I even though lots of time about CC him in your name instead of claiming! "Hey Caex you know why you aren't the cop? because Zion is, he's just hiding in plain sight" because it was completely obvious you were the cop the way you was behaving on Caex (only Wessel didn't understand this, I even said in thread "Wessel I'm not revealing how I would react to a fake vig claim because there are things happening in the thread you aren't noticing, let the adults play"). Because of your play D1 we lost so much. If you had claimed cop D1 we would have an active watcher, tracker and vig in the shadows, yeah we would have lost a result on Zinda, but I think, me, Xyre and Cy would certainly catch the other scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
That's a good point; if you had been scum then I would've been shot easily.
However, this would have turned Wessel against you presumably, having a ring-taker out to get the mafia is not good for them.
Still, I think firing my cop shot to clear an unknown and faking more shots was the right thing. I didn't want to trade 1:1, I wanted to trade 1:2 or more. I knew drawing the kill was the best play after my shot.
Not counter claiming Caex was about the hardest thing I've ever had to do in mafia.
That's were we disagree, you got greedy by not wanting to 1:1, for an one-shot cop 1:1 is quite fine imho, more than fine, it's superb! By being greedy you simply outed all our power roles and you even so you weren't that hidden... it's not that "if I were scum" I think everyone but the scumteam and Wessel had noticed you were counterclaiming him in the end, it wasn't that hard.
Trying to draw the kill by not claiming one-shot was great, no argument here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Given that you couldn't be targeted, I would have CC'd and taken the chance the mafia would just roleblock you (thinking they could dodge protective roles by killing someone else). You get Caex, you get your result, and if the mafia does kill you then they've got a neutral hitman gunning for them.
Sorry i had to replace out, at least i was right about that avatar.
Well you were, but only by coincidence.
Bah. I'm disappointed I didn't just follow my Simpsons/Ataghan meta of posting hollow crap that seems town at first glance and full of enough WIFOM to keep me alive for another day or two at a second glance. With three scum alive we'd have had a win pretty secure going into N2.
One thing I thought was strange was people calling me out for adding Stardust to my scum list out of left field at the start of the game. I did the exact same thing in Giant Robot and nobody said anything.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
What was much worse was when Cyouni was lynched. I mean, that cost the town all claimed investigation roles, whereas if he wasn't lynched (or if Caex was lynched), there was still some chance either Xyre or Cyouni could have given us a result. And maybe Caex could have fakeclaimed a result. Something more creative than 'WoLG is not town'.
Hey that almost worked, and would have resulted in a scum victory.
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling Wessels.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Well, can't say I was thrilled by my performance this game. As usual, my blind spot appears to be new players - if I wasn't giving Stardust the benefit of the doubt (as I gave Caex the benefit of the doubt in Ataghan), maybe I would have done something useful. At least I was spot-on in my various calculations on Caex. (Maybe now people appreciate my paranoia when it comes to doc claims. :))
I think you would have probably been better off counterclaiming Caex, Zionite; it would have saved us Cyouni, and I think a one-shot cop is roughly equal in value to a permanent tracker in the long run. 'course, only having a jailer with a group-roleblock on the other team makes our investigative roles pretty weak in the long run, but hey, worth a shot.
This is shortsighted, DRey. Before Xyre and Cyouni claimed, was it so strange for Zionite to think he was the only investigation role in a 12 player setup?
Caex claimed ascetic cop, Zion was ascetic cop, do you really think that from Zion POV there was a change Caex was town?
What was much worse was when Cyouni was lynched. I mean, that cost the town all claimed investigation roles, whereas if he wasn't lynched (or if Caex was lynched), there was still some chance either Xyre or Cyouni could have given us a result.
Actually that was kinda the best that could have happened given town nor scum were wanting to lynch Caex. Just me, Zinda and DYH wanted to lynch Voxx (the correct lynch considering Caex was off the table). Lynching the claimed watcher is worse than lynching the claimed tracker.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
* Seppel looks Iso's way.
Words don't describe the horror.
On lunch break at the moment, but will be able to post tonight.
Ultimately don't have much more to say, I've repeatedly said why Seppel is scum, over and over, and exasperatedly repeating it one more time won't change much.
Seppel's 'defense' was largely just him trying to brush things off as WiFOM, and handwaving other points.
Which is to be expected, it's the only thing he really can do as scum.
I will acknowledge that I completely misread the Cyouni thing - what Seppel said reeked of defensiveness, and when I went back to look, I saw 'swap Wessel and Seppel' and just assumed scum!Seppel was panicking at suspicion being on him.
Turns out he was just using that as a way to push the mislynch instead. 'beginning of my suspicion of Cyouni' indeed. Snerk.
But yeah, back to work with me, I'll have time to post more tonight.
I guess I can condense things a bit, then, but WoLG and Zindabad really need to have dialogue going between them.
We can't win without you both voting to lynch Seppel.
@WoLG - remove the jailing from the equation, and operate fully off of behavior. You were willing to lynch Seppel at the start of the day because his behavior this game has been so terrible. You even cast a vote on him.
Re-read my long post again if you need a refresher, but if nothing else, reconcile Caex pushing you as a neutral, and then Seppel trying to lynch you for being the neutral with Seppel being town. If you re-read Caex's 'claim', and consider that even the scum team had to believe that a cop in this setup was unlikely, just... it's painfully clear that it was a coordinated push from the scum team to push you as the neutral and power the lynch through. They probably did believe you were the neutral, hence Seppel's conviction and Caex doing what he did. But that push didn't come from town - it came from a scum team that was pinned and panicking, and desperately needed a lynch on non-mafia to gain breathing room.
Annnnd I need to be in a meeting in about two minutes, so yeah. I'm out.
He calls it WIFOM, I call it fact.
Let's not forget I was jailed but sure, ignore that.
Oh look at him show how he was wrong about what happened with Cyouni, oh look at him turn it into an attack or else he'll look weak.
No reconciliation on the DYH madness.
Stardust did this same thing as Seppel. Caex did this same thing as Seppel. Whoop de ****. Oh Seppel did it first and then the scum followed suit? WOW NEATO.
DRey said Stardust and Seppel are scum. OH HE ALSO SAID VOXX IS SCUM BUT LET'S NOT DRAW ATTENTION TO THAT.
Hey remember when Voxx defended himself from the evidence that he's scum? ME NEITHER
And other things that should absolutely show that I'm town and Voxx is scum. It's frustrating that this is even a question. This game should have been over a week ago.
There's been a lot that I haven't liked from both Seppel and Voxxicus, and there's been plenty that I have liked from them.
I really hated how Seppel posted that "this is me not hammering" bit after I had already unvoted Voxxicus. But then Voxxicus made his own equally terrible post when he tried to argue that me jailing him on N2 made him town. Those posts were abhorrent for the same reason: both were attempts to make their poster look more town. Seppel's felt completely fake. Voxxicus's felt desperate and flailing. It's tough to decide which is more indicative of a scum mindset, but I struggle to see what benefit either a townie or scum Seppel would derive from his post, as he was clearly winning the exchange between himself and Voxx at that point. Voxx's could have come from a townie who was on his last leg and was desperately trying to cling to anything that might cause him not to lose, but it doesn't jive with the generally sanguine attitude toward being lynched that Voxx has displayed so far today.
Building on that, what about Voxx's several posts regarding the possibility of Seppel being a one-shot unblockable killer? I've considered this theory and find it implausible. Just knowing what we know about the existing scum (to wit: one is vanilla and the other had a passive that made him unkillable whenever he targeted someone), it's difficult to fit unblockability into their team anywhere. If the 3rd scum has a passive that grants him unblockability, does the scumteam really have a vanilla and two players with passive abilities only? No actives? In a town full of them?
Actually, looking at the wording on Caex's ability again, it says he's untargetable whenever he targets another player...but the only thing he can target a player with is the Mafia NK. Maybe that isn't true. Maybe the Mafia have an ability pool or something like it, and that's where this unblockable kill that's about to end the game (as we can presume from the title "endgame") is going to come from. But then again, that doesn't make any sense either, unless we think Voxx really is scum and he trusted my word that I was going to jail Seppel, so he didn't need to use the unblockable kill last night and is saving it for tonight.
But then, returning to that "Endgame" title, it doesn't really match with the other half of my ability, which is the "protect the targeted player." I could still conceivably protect someone with that, or we could no-lynch, which probably wouldn't end the game (unless the scum are getting ready to unleash a double kill tonight.) So that's really not looking too accurate at this point and I'm probably WIFOMing myself way too much over it.
Anyway, what if the last scum has a passive sort of like Caex's where he becomes unblockable whenever he targets another player? Oh, that reminds me that the whole "Seppel actually has Caex's passive and that's where he got it from" thing doesn't make sense - why would a scum team with no doc have a passive that makes them unprotectable? But at any rate, most of those last three paragraphs were useless setup speculation that's getting us nowhere. We have to pick the right one today.
So to that end, let's look at behavior.
WellOfLostGnomes:
Summary of WolG:
Early standoffishness over the Xyre/DRey and Xyre/Zionite wallfests, pressures Che/Voxx, pressure on DRey, argues against Caex being vigged (no comment on the possible veracity of his claim), pressures Caex on his BS claim that he was trying to draw a RB, says that Caex's play has been terrible (but has barely mentioned him at all) but that he should be left in one piece for D2, possibly paves the road for Caex to still be alive D2 in post 345, peels off DRey in 360 under no pressure to do so, questions Che/Voxx, "re-reads" Stardust "to see if there's anything there", argues that two dead townies would mean a lynch on (town) DRey, defends Stardust and attacks Che/Voxx, finally accepts DRey as town, reluctant to attack Voxx after he replaces in, Iso appears and instantly latches on to Caex and Xyre, expresses interest in Cyouni and votes him without any real reasons, votes me with a /barn of Seppel's shocking "case" but then instantly lets me off after my defense, puts Stardust in his "solidly town" category despite not mentioning him for hundreds of posts, opts out of an easy vanilla mislynch on Voxx, WoLG calls Stardust solidly town while Iso calls him scum, reacts to Caex's allegations by referring to his role PM and his QT, "we should have lynched you yesterday" @Caex, when he was one of the people saying Caex should survive to D2, votes Stardust after his claim without interacting with him, opens D4 by considering Seppel, reckons it's Voxx by PoE, reckons that the weak scumteam needs a powerful role (like the jailer), keeps mentioning how he is cleared, leaves his options open on both Voxx and Seppel, saying Seppel is behaviorally scummier, continues to lean on Seppel for some of D4, switches to Voxx after both Seppel and I confirm that Seppel was jailed by me.
Voting pattern:
CropCircles/Seppel (D1), DRey (D1), Che Guevara/Voxxicus (D1), Cyouni (D1), zindabad (D1), Cyouni (D1), Xyre (D1), DRey (D1), Caex Kothar (D2), Wessel (D3), Stardust (D3), Seppel (D4), Voxxicus (D4).
WoLG verdict:
The only real twinges I feel here are some slight hypocrisy over leaving Caex alive on D1, which WoLG urged us to do, and a relative lack of pressure on obvscum Stardust - to his credit, Iso repeatedly named Star as scum, as well as Caex. These are vastly overwhelmed by the way WoLG hopped off my wagon on D1 when he could've easily ridden it to a mislynch and his calm reasoning. My paranoia is dispelled. If WoLG/Iso are scum, we deserve to lose.
Voxxicus:
Summary of Che Guevara:
Names Xyre and Zionite as his "early game questionables", attacks Caex for sounding like caught scum, continues to attack Caex, urges the real cop not to counter claim and rabidly continues the attack on Caex, abruptly switches to DRey with no real reasoning, follows up on both DRey (refusal to claim) and Caex (general scumminess and bad claim), continues to implicate Caex based on his bad claim and argues he should've survive to see D2.
Che Guevara voting pattern:
Caex Kothar (D1), DRey (D1).
Che Guevara verdict:
Hard to see what scumminess people were talking about here. Sure, his terse manner wasn't exactly the most conducive to scumhunting, but he was stuck on Caex for almost his entire time in the game. I guess it could've been bussing - he might've given up on Caex after the latter's bad claim and, realizing Caex would not survive for long, pressed for his death in a bid to garner town credit. But why argue for DRey to vig Caex? That's counterproductive to the scumteam. Better to have DRey shoot a townie and force the town to use a lynch on Caex.
Summary of Voxxicus:
Opens by saying Caex and DRey are off the table and Seppel is his #1 scum suspect, argues that Che was "unbelievably scummy" (really?), defeatism regarding his impending lynch, attacks Xyre with interest in Stardust, me, and Cyouni, calls Caex town, dubious D1 vote analysis, argues for leaving Caex alive, fair point re: abundance of town power but no scum roleblock, Stardust disappears off the "cop check list", followed by all mention of Stardust disappearing, abrupt switch to Caex being scum who's skimming the game, retracted in his next post, appears to fish for a counterclaim on Caex in 759, scumlist at end of D2 includes Stardust, Seppel and Wessel at the bottom (with Star still furthest from the bottom), names Wessel, Star, and Seppel as top suspects at the beginning of D3 (after we have already began talking), continues to prefer Wessel (neutral) over Stardust (scum), gives up on Wessel and switches to scum Stardust over neutral Wessel/unconfirmed Seppel, hints overtly that he will probably jail Seppel during N3, inaccuracy regarding my opinions on the scum during D3 (he states I leaned more heavily on Seppel/DYH and he preferred Wessel/Stardust - not actually accurate. Stardust was more my choice than his), opens the day with an attack on WoLG as the logical choice considering the jailing, changes his mind re: WoLG even before WoLG proves his role, argues it must be Seppel due to behavior, heavy defeatism after his brush with death, good large post re: Seppel, poor response to Seppel's response.
Voxxicus voting pattern:
Wessel (D3), Stardust (D3), Seppel (D4),
Voxxicus verdict:
There's just no comparison in terms of behavior between Voxxicus and Seppel. Voxxicus has sounded rational and pro-town throughout the game, barring 3 important periods: when he was being ran up on D1, when he totally flipped out and started appealing to emotion in early-to-mid D4, and when he went back to defeatism following his near-lynch today. Voxxicus moved against Stardust while Seppel was losing his grip and flailing in the directions of DYH, Wessel, and WoLG on D3. Some slight inaccuracies in his defense do not mar an overall pro-town performance. I'm having real trouble seeing this guy as scum.
Seppel:
Summary of CropCircles:
Opens with a vote on Caex for his shifty inclusion of Star as a scum suspect, argues that Caex should remain alive overnight, returns to wanting to lynch Caex, argues that we need to direct DRey's kill.
CropCircles voting pattern:
Caex Kothar (D1), Caex Kothar (D1).
CropCircles verdict:
Nothing to disagree with here. He was after Caex and DRey for the brief time he was in the game, although he never actually presented much in the way of evidence against Caex, preferring to go with analysis of the pros and cons of keeping his role in the game.
Summary of Seppel:
Opens with a lot of defense of Stardust and pressure on Caex, possible coaching of Caex with the "giving you a chance" comment, dubious reaction to Caex's claim, argues for Caex to be left alive overnight, attacks Xyre, Caex and Star remain on his town list, "Iso's reads mirror mine" (except the part where he calls Caex obvscum, right?), shocking case against me, votes Cyouni without mentioning him in ages, "I've already claimed" comment as D1 ended (not accurate - he had breadcrumbed, not claimed), begins to distrust Caex at the end of D1, appears to hint at WoLG being a neutral with the talk of investigating "someone else", theory of one of WoLG/Iso being scum may be paving the way for a mislynch on him, argues that DYH is town because of his role, urges Caex to "out the jailer", presses for a massclaim (attempt to out the jailer he now knows exists?), tries to cast suspicion on Zionite, terrible post to me in 948 where he tries to claim town credit for derailing a wagon on Xyre (only to lead it onto another townie in Cyouni...), gives Stardust town credit after Caex's death, lies during his claim, argues that he redirected DRey because "Xyre/Caex/Cyouni were all likely town after D1" (Cyouni was already dead at that point, and Caex was scum as the day is long), launches into a case trying to prove that WoLG is Gollum, comments on all the things wrong with Stardust's claim after making no mention of his wagon, continues to rant on about Gollum after obvscum Stardust is caught out, feeble justification for a vote on Stardust long after he's dead in the water, ties Wessel together with Stardust, abruptly switches to Wessel being neutral and Voxxicus (!?) being scum with Stardust in 1084 despite not having mentioned Voxx for pages and pages, tries to take credit for my catch of Stardust talking about (one-shot) DRey targeting him N2, suggests lynching Voxx first instead of Stardust on D3, needless fearmongering about DYH using his ability (I think he's the only player who has even talked about this all game), asserts again that there is no town jailer, states that the only thing DYH has going for him is his claim (reversal from previous stance), opens D4 saying it must be WoLG but then immediately starts preparing the ground for an attack on Voxx based on rules text, attempts to portray his D3 behavior as "locked on a Stardust/Wessel scumteam with [Voxx] as a close second" (BS - he was voting Voxx almost to the end of the day and even while he was begrudgingly voting Stardust, he was still talking about Wessel being scum).
Seppel voting pattern:
Che Guevara/Voxxicus (D1), Xyre (D1), Cyouni (D1), Caex Kothar (D2), WoLG (D3), Wessel (D3), Stardust (D3), Voxxicus (D3), Stardust (D3), Voxxicus (D4).
Seppel verdict:
I can't see past his utterly awful D3. It's rare to see a meltdown of that caliber in a high-level game like this one - the panic in Seppel's posts was quite apparent as he tried to find an excuse to lynch anyone other than Stardust. In his favor is a positive interaction with DRey - I simply don't buy Voxx's theory that DRey somehow got the idea that Seppel had messed with his kill and Seppel just "took it and ran with it." Doesn't make sense. All the same, I think that Seppel is the last scum on behavior.
*****
So now here we are. Voxx has the stronger behavior; Seppel has the stronger mechanics and claim. But even as I say that, it's tough to see Voxx as scum due to his role. He claimed vanilla. He has shown no sign whatsoever of having other abilities. How can we justify a scumteam of two vanillas, or if we allow for the possibility of Voxx being unblockable, a scumteam of a vanilla, a guy with a mostly-useless passive (only one kill in the whole setup and it was 1-shot), and another guy with a mostly-useless passive. Compare that to the ludicrous levels of town power that we've seen.
No. It makes more sense for Seppel to be scum with his nebulous set of one-shots, at least one of which was a lie while others among them have not been proven. Plenty of room to fit "unblockable" in there somewhere. His justification for redirecting DRey on N1 doesn't track, his backing of Caex throughout D1 while also championing Star early D3 before floundering while trying to find an alternate target (oh, and neutral-hunting, a classic scumtell), and his behavior in general has been suspect at best.
Thoughts, WoLG/Iso?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Regarding the 'Voxx preferred Wessel/Stardust, Zinda preferred DYH/Seppel', I more meant that you were leaning towards the last two more than I was. Re-read posts 5, 6 and 7 in the jailer chat.
Is ultimately a moot point, though. We agreed that the scum resided in that grouping of 4, I just thought it was the first two, when you were more amenable to the last two being possible scum.
You might want to give a recap of the jailer chat, too, for WoLG, from your perspective - I'm not sure you ever have.
Ultimately we can't win without WoLG voting for Seppel.
I'm inclined to agree that if WoLG is scum, he deserves the win - I've re-read him and tried to keep a clear mind going in, and I have trouble picturing him being scum.
There's a touch of paranoia with Iso's fixation on me, but it's twisted WiFOM logic that doesn't really deserve merit.
I don't have much left to say, so it's going to come down to you convincing WoLG that I'm town. Your summary of each of us mainly highlighted the possible negatives - you might want to recap what the positive things I've done or said are, and what I've said and done that you feel is coming from a town mindset.
Remember that WoLG doesn't have access to the jailer chat, and that we never fully covered what went on in there and why you were so sure I was town, because of the jailer 'claim'.
If you or WoLG have any questions or want me to clarify anything I've said or done this game, ask - I'll be checking this as much as possible tomorrow (today? whatever), given that I'm working from home.
@Voxx: What's preventing you from sharing the chat with us?
I'm pretty sure I tried multiple times to open communication with Cyouni, and Cyouni dodged them all the time.
Saying "I've already claimed" when all there is is a breadcrumb wastes scum resources trying to find a hidden claim somewhere.
Come on. Did you seriously not immediately see Gollum/Smeagol when WoLG revealed Iso?
YOU EVEN SAID LATER ON IN THE GAME:
Seriously.
1) What fearmongering?
2) What reversal?
How would knowing a jailer exists now have anything to do with pressing for a massclaim then?
We had outed so many roles that we needed accountability for people's actions back then.
I protected him that night, my protect failed, and he didn't die. He listed you as a clear, and he enabled a speedlynch on Caex.
That's the epitome of suspicious behavior and results.
This is what I believe is the greatest behavioral proof that I'm town. As scum, why would I petition for my vote to not count on Xyre? Why wouldn't I just say "no, my vote shouldn't count because I drunkenly posted it in the wrong thread, Xyre is lynched, it's only fair"?
Because that's what I would totally do if I were scum in that situation.
With very good reason.
I've done stupider things.
Which Stardust vote? I'm pretty sure I wanted to lynch Voxxicus over Stardust since it was obvious Voxx was scum with one of Wessel or Stardust.
Do I have to keep talking about someone every page if he posts once in a blue moon?
So Stardust was obvscum to you. He wasn't to me.
For real? This is the best I can find that could be considered "catching" him:
Even right here you acknowledge that I had already proven that I was responsible for DRey's missing shot.
How is that not further proof that I'm town? I don't know if you've ever played with me when I'm scum, but I'm good at it. If I were on a team with Stardust, I wouldn't let him have such an awful claim.
* PoE says it's WoLG
* Rules text implicates Voxx
* What? Zindabad jailed me? This requires more analysis.
You can have your BS back, good sir: My vote was on Voxx for 63 minutes.
And D3 went on for over 4,000 minutes.
Even if I was, what does it matter, anyway? All three are scum.
You have me down for an extra vote on Voxxicus and Stardust on D3.
Where did this happen?
What behavior? PPE: Oh I see below.
Going off that principle, I'd guess a passive of "your kills can't be observed" or if the scum have a pool of abilities, "your night actions can't be observed"
You jailed him N2, remember? The only chance we'd get at observing anything out of Voxx would be on N1. And with Cyouni and Xyre dead by D2, it didn't matter.
* Why claim completely truthfully when you have the chance to capitalize on a gambit that takes like no time or energy out of anyone?
* You say "others have not been proven" well first off, of the three, two were proven with DRey, and the third failed. Flavor was that I didn't find Zionite at the dwarfish camp and I wandered aimlessly through the night.
* I backed Caex because of his claim. So?
* I misread Stardust until he claimed. So?
* Re: Neutral-hunting:
Everyone keeps saying this and I have no idea where it's coming from. Please enlighten me.
* My behavior in general: What do you mean? Would you rather I bring the StarcraftSeppel back?
Anyway, there was one other thing I remembered but I forgot it. So that's about it.
I read all of them and took them into account in my own review of Voxx's behavior, which is part of my previous post. Did you read that part?
Not accurate. Between your catch-up posts and your vote on Cyouni directly following the deadline incident with Xyre, you mention him once, and it's just to say you want him or me lynched. No attempt to "open communication" with him. The next interaction you have with him is to tell him "Between Xyre and you, you are far worse." There was also that terrible "You have a very good point about Cyouni, Voxx" post, which I've asked you about twice now and to which you have never responded.
So let me ask you again: what exactly was it in this post by Voxxicus that was a "very good point"?
Bottom line is there's no interaction there at all. You talk at Cyouni, you don't talk to him. The only times you mention him on D1 are when you're bringing his name up as a lynch candidate.
A little defensive here? All I said was that you may be preparing the ground for a mislynch.
Yeah. Fearmongering. On D1 and D3 you bring up DYH possibly needing to use his governor ability. In fact you're pretty much the only player in the entire game who talked about DYH's role. It suggests something of an undue concern that cannot be explained by a town motivation.
If you're a townie and you think DYH is a townie, which you said you did for most of the game, then you're not worried about DYH needing to use his role. In fact, you can pretty much just go with the flow as far as a governor is concerned. But you direct appeals at DYH to use/not use his ability on several occasions. It seems like you were really worried about DYH making it to endgame with his shot still intact.
(Having looked back, I concede the point about a "reversal of stance" on DYH.)
The "now exists" refers to your knowledge on D2 that a jailer existed since he had jailed your scumbuddy Caex.
Really?
D2 claimed and living roles:
Zionite (confirmed town due to CC'ing Caex, one-shot)
DYH (one-shot ability that everyone would know about)
DRey (one-shot vig whose ability you had already affected)
Tell me again about how those roles needed accountability? Much more likely is that you wanted to out the town protective role, i.e. the jailer.
He claimed one-shot - that's enough reason to still be alive - and you seemed to find him OK when you decided to use your own one-shot doc ability on him.
Considering that it made no difference whatsoever because Xyre and Cyouni were both townies, I don't see how it's a positive at all for you. It was a moment of good sportsmanship, but I'm afraid that scum can be good sportsmen too. If Xyre had been town and Cyouni scum, this would be a good point in your favor. But there was nothing at stake for you there.
Not exactly a compelling defense. It also doesn't take into account how Cyouni was already dead when you tried to argue that.
This one.
You said nothing about Stardust while he was being run up, preferring to fearmonger over Gollum, then after he was forced to claim you began to say how scummy he was (talking past him rather than engaging him directly, in the classic style of a bus) and finally vote him with the flimsy justification of "he was ignoring me but now that he posted something to me I'll vote him."
I'd say this is the strongest point against you - the way you totally ignored Stardust while he was in trouble, preferring to neutral-hunt instead, then brought the bus when he was already doomed (viz. after he claimed.)
That's not what I was talking about. My point against him was not that something happened to DRey on N1, it was that he was trying to come up with an explanation for how he survived DRey's shot on N2...which never happened, because DRey was a one-shot and had already claimed that.
WIFOM.
I've played against you as scum once. I was town in Annorax's Bastard Mod Mafia.
Like I said, you opened the day saying it must be WoLG, then switched to Voxx before even reading my post in the jailchat. At 5:39 pm you posted this, and at 5:45pm you confirmed that you had just read my jailchat posts.
I'm sure I don't have to explain that Wessel and Stardust were not the same kind of scum, and that opting to pursue neutral Wessel while real scum Stardust was crashing and burning is a glaring behavioral red flag.
Furthermore, you were voting Voxx here in post 1102 (5/15, 2:27pm EST) and then later unvoted him and voted Stardust in post 1111 (5/15, 8:30pm EST), so I'm not sure where you're getting that "63 minutes" figure from (totally made up?), but that isn't even what I was talking about.
I admit I was wrong about voting Voxx to the end of D3, but you were voting WoLG and Wessel for almost the entire day and for the entire period of time on D3 before Stardust claimed. The point is that you were pursuing anybody but Stardust.
So there's no unblockable kill, right? In that case you should have no objection to being lynched today while I jail Voxx tonight and we lynch him tomorrow.
Because it gives you the chance to change your claim later on, since you were lying "for the good of the town."
I accept that you redirected DRey's kill. There's no proof that you were ever untargetable (you could've had some other effect, or - even better! - you could've just been a bus driver who redirected DRey to the unkillable Stardust) and there's no proof that you ever had a doc ability. You could've targeted Zionite with any other non-killing ability and you would've got the same flavor.
It's nice that you can be so blase about this, but calling the two confirmed scum town and attacking anyone but them throughout the game is not so easily dismissed with a "so?" In fact, it's the strongest behavioral evidence there is. Your interactions with townies are lousy. Your interactions with scum are lousy. You are scum.
Yeah, I almost would, because the Starcraft Seppel was town. You aren't.
In fact, this isn't the first time you've tried to bring that up as a point in your favor. In the terrible "look at the stuff I did" post, you pointed to how you haven't been "trolling me." That's actually one of the reasons I suspected you throughout D3 - because you have been so different to your Starcraft game. You've been far more reminiscent of your Annorax's Bastard Mod meta here - more low-key than usual, less analytic, less spammy.
I admit that I could be wrong and that if I am, we will almost certainly lose the game. But Voxx is convincing and you're anything but. I've put my time into this game, I've combed through hundreds of posts, and I'm about as confident about this decision as I'm going to get.
I'd like to hear from WoLG/Iso before we proceed, but I'm heading out in a little less than an hour and I'm not sure I'll make it back before deadline, so I'll probably cast my vote.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
May the better side prevail.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I did. And it certainly looked like you just turned a blind eye to it.
Huh. Well I was thinking a lot to him.
And I'm not sure what I was thinking about the point, but it had something to do with voting and WoLG.
Which is cause to be defensive, is it not?
I can't justify that without OGI, so I won't.
Just another piece of poison Voxx has laid out. You've been subscribing to his newsletter too much.
Caex wasn't lying? Did you Caex N1?
I felt that the people who were scum needed accountability.
And again, why in the world would I believe that Caex was jailed? I'm not able to follow your thought process at all.
He didn't claim one shot, dude.
Why push a lynch on an unknown when you can get rid of an information role? That's just dumb.
I am so not a good sportsman as scum. But don't tell me I told you that if it ever comes up in a game.
Three info roles that are all likely SLASH CONFIRMED town (geez you know what I mean), toughguy makes sense. DRey screaming that he wanted to shoot Caex helped convince me.
It was a play that hurt our team. These are just things I can't argue, like when I shot the confirmed doc in Joss Whedon Mafia.
I regarded him as town for most of the game, then when things start sounding fishy, I ask questions (TO him, not OVER him), he ignores me, repeatedly, and I want at least one damn post where he addresses me and my concerns. I get one where he just addresses me, too scared to actually respond to my posts to him, and so I vote him.
Oh. Hahaha, I didn't even see that. I thought he was talking about N1. Oh god it's even funnier now.
Terrible game.
But I got three cops claiming that they got a guilty on me and I didn't get lynched.
I'm more offended than frustrated that you think I'm scum in this game. Dude.
/confirm
I must've misread 8:30 as 3:30. My bad.
That's correct.
It's possible. There could even be a "first-strike" kill. There's got to be some reason Voxx is pushing for a lynch instead of a no-lynch (which he has already declared will end in all four of us being alive on D5).
If the game was confirmed to be on autowin, then sure, I wouldn't care about being lynched.
I waited until WoLG was around and posting to minimize the time it would take to have the false information up.
Now if I had actually changed my claim later on with like, "Oh and I can revive a dead towine," then there would be a point to this.
I wish I could just smack you with the big black bolded words in my inbox.
I'm blase about it because it's null.
To be fair, I called Caex town on the provision that he not be alive D2. Sure, you can look back at the game now with perfect insight and say, "Yeah, Caex is obvscum," But using knowledge we have now to implicate that I should have known it then is like talking to an angry spectator in the postgame.
Yeah, I almost would, because the Starcraft Seppel was town. You aren't.
If you're using Starcraft Mafia as a base for judging my behavior, you're doing it wrong. You even just recently saw me in Ataghan. Though in Ataghan I put forth a massive amount of effort to make it up to you for how I acted in Starcraft. This is pretty much my normal towngame.
Hopefully WoLG drops by to win the game, but I'm not optimistic.
If we do no lynch, I guess jail Seppel again. There's always the chance that it was a 1-shot that let him bypass the jail last night, rather than a full passive.
I'm not moving my vote, but I will stay up until 12 to see this out just in case WoLG does arrive and wants to talk about something.
Can I just say how ludicrous it is that the other "confirmed townie" has decided to do a runner at the eleventh-and-a-half hour? If WoLG is scum I'm going to rage for weeks.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
One of the reasons I have been trying to get zinda to respond to the game is because I knew I wasn't goi.g to be online today. I'm glad thw soitwe decided to work ony phone whil I'm in this building.
Game over, good game everyone.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Unvote just in case.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Final Vote Count
Seppel (3): Voxxicus, zindabad, WellOfLostGnomes
Voxxicus (1): Seppel
As the last few hours of Daylight trickled away behind the Misty Mountains, Galadriel and the three remaining dwarves returned to the tunnels of Goblin-Town to search for signs of Bilbo. Though they were weary, they knew that their ordeal must end, one way or the other.
Galadriel turned her magic inward, hoping to pierce the shadows with her light. She could no longer sense the hobbit's life force, which pained her greatly. The goblin caves were filled with darkness, the same darkness that plagued Dol Guldur. She vowed to purge it, even if it took the remainder of her power.
Fíli and Kíli maintained a careful lookout, each holding a blazing torch. They crept silently and seemed to communicate without words, as if each already knew what the other was thinking.
Dori was sullen. He never forgave himself for allowing Thorin to perish, but underneath his dejected exterior, he was burning with rage. Rage waiting for an outlet. He would make them pay.
The four lost track of time as they navigated an endless number of winding corridors and side passages. Just as the dwarves were about to give up hope of making any progress before exhaustion set in, a tiny goblin snuck up behind Dori, knife in hand. Galadriel cried out just in time, using a quick spell to shield Dori from the wicked dagger. As the goblin turned to run, Kíli put an arrow between its eyes. A gurgling noise called from somewhere in the depths of the mountain.
"Kill them! Kill them and bring their weapons to me!"
A swarm of goblins seemed to erupt out of the stones around the dwarves, who were quickly buried under their weight. Galadriel focused her energy in Nenya, then released it in a wave of force that blew the scrabbling mob away. The sturdy dwarves took a moment to recover from the impact, then put blade and bolt to the squealing imps. Within minutes, the four were able to follow a trickling stream of goblin blood to the one who threatened them with death.
The Great Goblin leered at the intruders from atop his toilet-throne. The foul smell filling the chamber left little to the imagination. A taunting chant began echoing throughout the cavern.
"Bones will be shattered, necks will be wrung!
You'll be beaten and battered, from racks you'll be hung!
You will die down here and never be found!
Down in the deep of Goblin-Town!"
Before the goblin army could bear down upon them, Dori charged the Great Goblin, bellowing with fury. With astonishing agility, the corpulent chieftain grabbed his royal scribe and used the unfortunate creature as a meat shield, deftly deflecting the dwarf's flail. However, Dori's sword sunk straight into the Great Goblin's flabby thigh. Howling in pain, the Great Goblin smashed the side of Dori's head with his staff, knocking the warrior aside. Galadriel drew close enough to fully bind the Great Goblin, leaving him immobile and vulnerable to attack. Fíli took the opportunity to rush forward and slash open the Great Goblin's quivering stomach. The king of Goblin-town fell forward onto the dwarves, knocking them down into the pit underneath his massive bulk. Responding to this quick turn of events, Galadriel summoned her most horrific visage, terrifying the goblin minions and driving them away before her.
Wincing, Galadriel slowly made her way down to where the dwarves were buried, as they were, under the crushing weight of the Great Goblin's corpse. It took her some time to carefully navigate the treacherous walkways, given that they were built to support much smaller crossers, but eventually reached the lowermost level. As the elven lady approached her fallen companions, she stopped abruptly. Someone was already there, observing the ludicrous scene. But it was impossible. It couldn't be...
"Mithrandir?"
Gandalf turned to face his old friend and simply smiled.
Seppel has been lynched.
The Great Goblin, Mafia Chieftain How dare those wretched dwarves enter your domain? The intruders even had the nerve to threaten you with Elvish blades. But they underestimate you. As the Great Goblin, you have a goblin minion for every mission. Their sneakiness is matched only by their disposability.
Dori, Town Vanilla You take pride in being the strongest dwarf in the company. Yet, you have no idea why the others see you as a dandy. Not that they dare insult you to your face. At any rate, you devoted yourself to Throin while you lived in the Blue Mountains and follow him with pride.
Fíli and Kíli, Town Brothers Inseparable since your youth, you practiced your swordsmanship together until you were the best fighters of your generation. As Thorin's nephews, you are able to achieve a great deal of mischief without reprimand, but you would give your lives for him without a second thought.
Lady Galadriel, Town Ring-bearer Jailer You did not join the company to aid the greedy dwarves in their quest for riches. You joined because you perceive the shadow in Dol Guldur and recognize its nature. It is your fervent hope that you are wrong, but it would be folly not to act. Let the Light shine forth.
Thanks to everyone for playing, and special thanks to Cyouni, DYH, Seppel, and Voxxicus for replacing in!
Thoughts to come.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
We might have won if Wessel hadn't counterclaimed Gollum to prevent WoLG from being lynched! I just can't wrap my head around the logic of doing it, but it seemed to have worked out so I guess I can't criticize the results.
Apparently I don't do "recklessly aggressive" as scum. Good to know so I won't do it again and be forced to think up a complicated falseclaim that will still get me insta-lynched D2. So bah for that too.
I was also amused, as I said in the spectator chat, that nobody was giving me the credit for being clever with my claim and my WellofLostIsos neutral gamble. It was hilarious and complimentary and insulting and exasperating all at once.
{Magic: The RPG}
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Your role was also ridiculous (as in: too ridiculous to be town), so you might want to find a less outlandish example (considering you insist on bringing it up). We (at the very least, I) legitimately thought you were a neutral.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well-played by everyone still alive, and especially the late-game analysis by Zindabad. Major props to him for slogging through an entire read-through.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Jeeeessssuuussssssss.
That final day was a tad stressful/exasperating.
I replaced into this game and realized immediately that I was going to be the only one on my team left alive in the endgame. "Eh, no biggie," I thought, "I like mafia games on hardmode."
Then the power roles started trickling in:
My attempts to save Stardust fell flat when he started stepping on rakes and it was impossible to reconcile anything good when he completely ignored me. Had I known that was what would happen, I would've just bussed Stardust to oblivion.
I might as well have been a one-man scumteam.
@Zindabad: The correct answer about the Xyre debacle is that, since none of my buddies were candidates to be run up, getting another townie to claim was the best play. Also, take everything I said in those last few posts with a grain of salt. Much of it isn't true, but I had to shove my face into having a townie mindset.
=======
All in all, I feel I performed well for, considering this was the hardest game of mafia ever (excluding trainwrecks like Starcraft that had no chance of being won). I know where I could have improved.
Had I channeled my inner Chamber, I would been around for that short two-hour span where I could've hammered, and won the game. So I consider this game a theoretical win for the scum as well.
I recognized it immediately as an honest claim that cleared yet another town. I thought it was a good play and good for the team, so I let Wessel win. I knew that from stressing behavioral reads ALL GAME LONG that Seppel would eventually get caught because of this play.
I had Caex as scum by Day 1 (his claim), so I was able to position my reads on everyone around that. Stardust shot himself in the foot with the fence-sitting on Caex and then supporting leaving him alive; he should have picked one or the other. Take a page from zindabad: if your buddy's going down, bus him like you get bonus points for it.
That said, I cannot believe this game was won by town with only 12 players and a neutral in the mix. We could have easily gone to lylo much earlier if Caex had played better. This game should have been 13p.
Now that we're out of the game, my sincere apologies to Zionite for that one post. I really was frustrated, but should have stepped back. Sorry.
Umm... otherwise, that whole deal stating DRey was roleblocked was pretty stupid on my part. He actually did target me Night 2 and I actually did survive because I was bulletproof, but I wouldn't have known that as town of course. I feel like I did okay in this game, but need to get better in general if I'm going to be playing among giants.
1)I didn't shoot Caex, while it's true I identified Zion as the cop and Caex as the scum, even with 99% certainty I would not be so gutsy to shoot the unCCed cop and end up destroying my team. I know if I did that and Caex flipped town everyone would blame me forever.
2)I was roleblocked by Seppel, and I knew this, not because I'm a self watcher nor any hint from AI but because I reread him and he claimed town roleblocker and that the scum had a doc. I was trying to make him confess by revealing I knew it (when I didn't) because it make no-sense for him to roleblock me as town considering he repeatedly said he read me as the town vig. The day ending short put a brake on this plan.
3)I did really shot Star (my shot wasn't spent after roleblock), it was amusing that he was lynched for lying about being shot by me when I was just a one-shot vig.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
This is going to become a thing, isn't it?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@AI: What would have happened to Wessel if I were killed by scum? What if Wessel and mafia targeted me at the same time?
One of the big plays for me was on Day 1 declaring that I wasn't going to be the lynch today and not claiming at L-2. Had I claimed then, this game might have been a total train wreck. I just wasn't going to toss away my cop shot to appease Xyre.
Also I quite disagree with you not counterclaiming Caex, I even though lots of time about CC him in your name instead of claiming! "Hey Caex you know why you aren't the cop? because Zion is, he's just hiding in plain sight" because it was completely obvious you were the cop the way you was behaving on Caex (only Wessel didn't understand this, I even said in thread "Wessel I'm not revealing how I would react to a fake vig claim because there are things happening in the thread you aren't noticing, let the adults play"). Because of your play D1 we lost so much. If you had claimed cop D1 we would have an active watcher, tracker and vig in the shadows, yeah we would have lost a result on Zinda, but I think, me, Xyre and Cy would certainly catch the other scum.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
However, this would have turned Wessel against you presumably, having a ring-taker out to get the mafia is not good for them.
Still, I think firing my cop shot to clear an unknown and faking more shots was the right thing. I didn't want to trade 1:1, I wanted to trade 1:2 or more. I knew drawing the kill was the best play after my shot.
Not counter claiming Caex was about the hardest thing I've ever had to do in mafia.
Trying to draw the kill by not claiming one-shot was great, no argument here.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I guess you're right I should have countered then and there. I just didn't want to leave the game N1.
Bah. I'm disappointed I didn't just follow my Simpsons/Ataghan meta of posting hollow crap that seems town at first glance and full of enough WIFOM to keep me alive for another day or two at a second glance. With three scum alive we'd have had a win pretty secure going into N2.
One thing I thought was strange was people calling me out for adding Stardust to my scum list out of left field at the start of the game. I did the exact same thing in Giant Robot and nobody said anything.
{Magic: The RPG}
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling Wessels.
{Magic: The RPG}
I think you would have probably been better off counterclaiming Caex, Zionite; it would have saved us Cyouni, and I think a one-shot cop is roughly equal in value to a permanent tracker in the long run. 'course, only having a jailer with a group-roleblock on the other team makes our investigative roles pretty weak in the long run, but hey, worth a shot.
Good job zindabad. The suspense was killing me.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The lynch occurred before the cop posted, it's not that he didn't want to CC he was unable to because the day ended abruptly.
Actually that was kinda the best that could have happened given town nor scum were wanting to lynch Caex. Just me, Zinda and DYH wanted to lynch Voxx (the correct lynch considering Caex was off the table). Lynching the claimed watcher is worse than lynching the claimed tracker.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
It was a...frustrating experience, given that Occam's Razor did, indeed, point right at me.