If scum AI was trying to convince people scum Teh was town because scum Teh was using SoC doesn't this mean what you are trying to use to convince me/us Macius is town is inherently false and disproven by the very example you are using to try and justify your SoC town tell?
But those two posts really stuck out the most for what I saw and that was a person who was conflicting on what alignment to treat someone who given their stated mindset should be clear.[/FONT][/COLOR][/font][/COLOR]
Can you reformat that sentence with some names to make your intention clearer? Whose "stated mindset" are we talking about and what mindset was stated?
But those two posts really stuck out the most for what I saw and that was Stardust who was conflicting on what alignment to treat Macius who given Stardust's stated mindset should be clear.
Can you reformat that sentence with some names to make your intention clearer? Whose "stated mindset" are we talking about and what mindset was stated?
But those two posts really stuck out the most for what I saw and that was Stardust who was conflicting on what alignment to treat Macius who given Stardust's stated mindset should be clear.
Can you reformat that sentence with some names to make your intention clearer? Whose "stated mindset" are we talking about and what mindset was stated?
But those two posts really stuck out the most for what I saw and that was Stardust who was conflicting on what alignment to treat Macius who given Stardust's stated mindset should be clear.
Can you reformat that sentence with some names to make your intention clearer? Whose "stated mindset" are we talking about and what mindset was stated?
Color coated with who what.
Likewise.
The mindset that stated you wanted to eventually lynch Macius.
By, "I have no clue", I literally mean that I literally didnt even think when typing.... literally how I play mafia. Its why I dont play much, as it gets grating to others.
I don't know what to do with this. Like, you're probably telling the truth, but you'll be so useless to the town that lynching you is only a loss because one of our own will get nightkilled. Do you play that way out of selfishness, so that you'll be harder to read regardless of your alignment? Or is this just a bunch of scum slips from a someone who doesn't care enough to even bother pretending to be town?
Unvote, but only because I'm not interested in seeing a lynch just yet. Macius, read my last post and respond to those questions.
The blue bit is me rationalizing the fact that he felt honest. If he's telling the truth, he's town, right? The red bit is me realising that there is a way scum could be honest here, but still be scum.
So I'm conflicted, but certainly leaning scum at this point. I unvote because the day is young, then the bolded bit is me trying to get more information to decide which way to swing.
As for your claim, while it's possibly a town role, a role thief is also a very solid ability for scum (in fact, I've been playing with a similar role as scum in some setups of my own), so that does very little for me.
Preview edit: Yeah, what Silver said.
This post you didn't mention, but it comes 6 minutes later and shows that I'm still working on figuring this stuff out, trying to decide is his claim has any bearing (it doesn't).
Asenion, you're beating a dead horse here. Your answer is in Rhand's explanation. He covered every reason why Macius's post was scummy (more than the FoS, but that's the obvious flag). That's why Macius got voted. Why he got pushed to claim range is another question, but I had no problem leaving my vote there at the time given his follow-up posts. I plan on putting my vote back there to end the Day since I doubt there will be anyone I want to lynch more later.
This post is 3 hours later, and I've basically made up my mind after thinking it over. Macius is probably scum.
Interesting to note that on my reread a week later I decided to take that honesty more seriously, probably in no small part because of Asenion's interactions with Macius. That's where I'm still currently at - I see Macius as a coin flip.
My issues with Stormblind align fairly closely with yours. The simple fact is that he HASN'T done much of anything -- and what he has done, as you've noted, is primarily pushing people to claim. However, I don't think that there's enough for a lynch yet on the basis of two things:
Again, WHAT WAGONS HAVE I PUSHED? I have pushed Macius, *DIDN'T* Push Swishh, DIDNT push Kosa's Wagon.
Asenion pushed Kosa to claim, and is now on TMCT's wagon. He has officially pushed the same amount of people to claim, with less justification on those wagons.
PLEASE point out how his play is better then mine? I've pushed for Macius's death (A claimed role that is *NOT* pro-town [still haven't heard ANY justifications for how it's town]), whereas Asenion has pushed for mine, with the only ****ing justificaton for people voting for me/pushing me as scum being "HE PUSHED ALL THE WAGONZ!!!!" when I've been on *ONE* or vague claims of "HE'Z SKUMMY!"
You clearly didn't read my case on you if you think that Stormblind. My case on you is:
#1 You are basing your opinions on roles and not paying attention to behavior or trying to scumhunt.
#2 Your mindset is inconsistent and you seem to just be looking for someone to lynch. (Doesn't mean you've pushed every wagon, but you speak in favor of lynching lots of people.)
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
You clearly didn't read my case on you if you think that Stormblind. My case on you is:
#1 You are basing your opinions on roles and not paying attention to behavior or trying to scumhunt.
#2 Your mindset is inconsistent and you seem to just be looking for someone to lynch. (Doesn't mean you've pushed every wagon, but you speak in favor of lynching lots of people.)
K. Quote them, I dare you. I'm calling you on your blatant falsehood. One is true, but if you consider it scummy, cool, good for you. Two is blatantly false.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Can you make a case, Rhand? I didn't have time to really give it a proper shot, but I took a quick look back over what he's done and what he's doing now and I'm not totally convinced.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've been preoccupied with another game and studying for a big test coming up. I still am, but I just remembered we have a deadline coming up soon.
I've also been dreading having to do a re-read, and it's only gotten worse obviously. If someone could help me find these things that would be great:
-Why Stormblind's "I'm scum" was not a slip
-The case on TMCT
-The case on Asenion
I assume the case on Macius hasn't changed.
I'll be trying to make time to re-read where I left off during the next couple days.
Dreadful activity for me the past two weeks, sorry. My gut says Asenion Today so I'll see if I can substantiate that with evidence -- before this week I hadn't looked at him outside of the context of KK also being scum but my skim of the game right now reflects poorly on him. I don't get the case or wagon on me (Seppel, when did you try to "prove" that I'm scum yourself?)
A brief case on Asenion:
He's an active lurker (which isn't a scumtell). Not much content in many of his posts; he's talking about mechanics more than about behaviour.
I really, really dislike this post:
I'm not even close to active lurking. I was a bit slow in the beginning of the game and I'm really busy with school this week, but I've actually made 3 cases on different players and defended those who I thought were town. I have all kinds of opinions on lots of people out there.
I also have no "fear" of Macius being lynched. It's just clear that there isn't support for that wagon right now and we are at deadline. Honestly, after that post Rhand, I'm ready to come for you on Day 2.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Dreadful activity for me the past two weeks, sorry. My gut says Asenion Today so I'll see if I can substantiate that with evidence -- before this week I hadn't looked at him outside of the context of KK also being scum but my skim of the game right now reflects poorly on him. I don't get the case or wagon on me (Seppel, when did you try to "prove" that I'm scum yourself?)
This game is a mess. I don't feel comfortable with blindly following Seppel in this.
Don't follow Seppel. But look at Silver's TMCT case. His voting patterns show a scum mindset. His latest naked vote on Asenion is even more evidence of this.
Stardust: do you think it possible that both wagons are scum? I find that very improbable for a D1 end and I feel worse about Asenion than about TMCT.
Possible, of course, but as you say, improbable. Hell, they could both be town, but thinking one is scum certainly doesn't clear the other. I can't remember a single direct interaction between the two of them.
So you feel worse about Asenion... why? That's the question we need answered.
--) Asenion and TCMT have this weird conversation towards the end of RVS about the extended twilight present in the game. Asenion looks bad for fishing about it, but TCMT's comment looks worse to me. Swishh asks if there's any reason to speculate, and TCMT quickly and immediately replies:
Quote from TCMT »
With no further information, no.
Some games have explicitly long twilights for the hell of it. Basic #70 comes to mind.
Kosa notes that there was a reason for Basic 70, and then the topic is dropped. While this could be read as TCMT wanting to call out Asenion's fishing, it could also be interpreted as coaching a scumbuddy, OR as acknowledging that he knows more about the twilight's role in the game that he's telling: potential scum theme, perhaps?
Or...it could be read as trying to end speculation because it was pointless, which is what Occam says.
--) TCMT then applies some light pressure to Stormblind about his RVS vote, and quickly drops it upon SB's reply, noting that he's not doing the "post time between RVS posts thing again." This seems like acknowledging flimsy reasoning and retracting from a bad attack.
That is correct. It was flimsy reasoning and I was retracting from a bad attack. So?
--) Following this, TCMT needles Swish slightly shortly before the Macius wagon explodes out of nowhere. TCMT skirts the Macius wagon, asking numerous questions and periodically coming down on Macius for various things, but never actually voting Macius. Once Macius claims, TCMT fishes in plain sight for how Macius plans to use his ability. I take issue with this because while I think that most agree that Macius either needs to be directed with his role (or told just not to use it) due to its inherent scummy nature / WIFOM-generating quality, asking Macius how he was planning to use it is a loaded question which, pending the reply, could easily lead to a mislynch if Macius is town. It also gives scum!TCMT insight into Macius's thoughts and reads.
I didn't vote Macius because I thought he was at L-2. Why is that concept so alien to everyone pressing me on it? Saying "I want you to claim" was my vote.
I see where you're coming from on the fishing matter. My reasoning was that Macius is a genuine player and I wanted to see if he, if town, had been considering what pro-town uses his ability had. So in that sense, yeah, I was trying to get insight into his thoughts.
--) The Macius wagon crumbles quickly after his claim, and TCMT quickly follows up by poking Kosa and Asenion for lurking. Asenion launches into an assault on Void shortly thereafter, but never gives a reply to TCMT. Kosa makes like one post before the Swish wagon gets rolling.
I poked KK and AG for lurking, not Asenion. Which is important because they've been very vocal on D1 in every game I've played with them.
This defense of Asenion vs Tom's pressure feels terrible. TCMT's reasoning for town!Asenion is based around Swish flipping scum, which, as we know, did not happen. Despite this, however, TCMT had just noted in #246 that:
Quote from TCMT »
(though if swishh flips town I don't think it has much bearing of Asenion's alignment).
TCMT never provides the reasoning for this side of the equation -- he just states it without backup. Why is TCMT so certain that Asenion is town?
I said swishh flipping town didn't have much bearing on Asenion's alignment, not that he's town.
TCMT also then smears Guardman for doing the same thing (albeit it before TCMT, in #97).
Not even remotely close to a smear. I was responding to Rhand, who called out Guardman for not voting Macius. Guardman and I had the same reason for not voting Macius at that time.
Meh, that's L-2 by my count too. What the **** ever, this trainwreck needs to be gotten over with on deadline day.
I'm Silraven, Water Nymph, Town Healer. Once per Night I may choose a player; if they would be killed they aren't instead. The first time I'm killed in the game, if I've stopped the death of another player I come back to life at the start of the next Day.
The only claims that would have earned my unvote were a Doc or Cop variant, dang it. Ok, who can we lynch toDay? Don't waste time on me, my claim would clear me too. Who does that leave? We have 24 hours to decide I think.
I'm down for Stormblind if that has traction, although in this deadline situation I'm open to suggestions.
Vote Stormblind
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
The only claims that would have earned my unvote were a Doc or Cop variant, dang it. Ok, who can we lynch toDay? Don't waste time on me, my claim would clear me too. Who does that leave? We have 24 hours to decide I think.
I'm down for Stormblind if that has traction, although in this deadline situation I'm open to suggestions.
Vote Stormblind
At this point, we need fewer claims. To that end, I still say that the scummiest person who's claimed already is Macius. It's not really what I'd like to see happen, but it's better than flailing around and trying to case a brand new suspect and see a full wagon to completion. If we get a Macius flip, we can at least have some solid info to go on from there.
Tom is still an option that's on the table as well, I feel, but I think that Macius's death gives us more information to work with than Tom's does.
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@TCMT -- I have some replies to some of your stuff, but I'm not going to bother wasting the time to type it up -- your claim puts you beyond reproach. I'll only close by noting that the "you hadn't posted in 3 days" bit was written under the impression that you were still around to some degree. Obviously, as you pointed out, you were not, and that makes that point null. I always hate bringing up activity complaints, because it's impossible to say when people are busy vs when they're lurking -- I've found compromise in that I bring it up when I case someone, if relevant, and then apologize if it comes back that they had IRL stuff to do.
So, to that end, you have my apologies regarding that point.
If scum AI was trying to convince people scum Teh was town because scum Teh was using SoC doesn't this mean what you are trying to use to convince me/us Macius is town is inherently false and disproven by the very example you are using to try and justify your SoC town tell?
Hitman would have reason to burn his shot day 1, SK would rather save it.
inb4 "I'm probably not wrong 4 times in a row so you are definitely scum" on his next target.
How about more votes on a wagon that will actually go to lynch before the deadline?
Dude, you're still voting Tom.
I'm down.
Unvote
Vote TMCT
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Oh.
Unvote, vote TMCT.
(That's L-3 I think)
Can you reformat that sentence with some names to make your intention clearer? Whose "stated mindset" are we talking about and what mindset was stated?
Color coated with who what.
Likewise.
The mindset that stated you wanted to eventually lynch Macius.
Here's the first post, which I made in the heat of the moment. That should be pretty obvious since the post itself is kind of all over the place.
The blue bit is me rationalizing the fact that he felt honest. If he's telling the truth, he's town, right? The red bit is me realising that there is a way scum could be honest here, but still be scum.
So I'm conflicted, but certainly leaning scum at this point. I unvote because the day is young, then the bolded bit is me trying to get more information to decide which way to swing.
This post you didn't mention, but it comes 6 minutes later and shows that I'm still working on figuring this stuff out, trying to decide is his claim has any bearing (it doesn't).
This post is 3 hours later, and I've basically made up my mind after thinking it over. Macius is probably scum.
Interesting to note that on my reread a week later I decided to take that honesty more seriously, probably in no small part because of Asenion's interactions with Macius. That's where I'm still currently at - I see Macius as a coin flip.
How'd he get to L-3?
Again, WHAT WAGONS HAVE I PUSHED? I have pushed Macius, *DIDN'T* Push Swishh, DIDNT push Kosa's Wagon.
Asenion pushed Kosa to claim, and is now on TMCT's wagon. He has officially pushed the same amount of people to claim, with less justification on those wagons.
PLEASE point out how his play is better then mine? I've pushed for Macius's death (A claimed role that is *NOT* pro-town [still haven't heard ANY justifications for how it's town]), whereas Asenion has pushed for mine, with the only ****ing justificaton for people voting for me/pushing me as scum being "HE PUSHED ALL THE WAGONZ!!!!" when I've been on *ONE* or vague claims of "HE'Z SKUMMY!"
And this is *AFTER* just doing a re-read.
It's either lazy/lying (You didn't really re-read), or willful misrememberance given i JUST Dealt with this with Seppel.
Which is it?
#1 You are basing your opinions on roles and not paying attention to behavior or trying to scumhunt.
#2 Your mindset is inconsistent and you seem to just be looking for someone to lynch. (Doesn't mean you've pushed every wagon, but you speak in favor of lynching lots of people.)
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Stormblind is overreacting, again.
K. Quote them, I dare you. I'm calling you on your blatant falsehood. One is true, but if you consider it scummy, cool, good for you. Two is blatantly false.
The earliest I can do this is monday :/
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because TMCT is scum. Prove me wrong.
I've also been dreading having to do a re-read, and it's only gotten worse obviously. If someone could help me find these things that would be great:
-Why Stormblind's "I'm scum" was not a slip
-The case on TMCT
-The case on Asenion
I assume the case on Macius hasn't changed.
I'll be trying to make time to re-read where I left off during the next couple days.
That's all I got, but that's enough.
Ehm no, I don't feel like defending him
It's just that I can't imagine both wagons at the end of the day being on scum.
I'm gonna try and case both today because that always helps to get perspective (I hope I manage within the time I have ).
Yup, lynch TMCT.
He's an active lurker (which isn't a scumtell). Not much content in many of his posts; he's talking about mechanics more than about behaviour.
I really, really dislike this post:
He seems to be afraid of Macius getting lynched.
An even briefer case on TMCT:
He did a lot of Swishh attacking. He seems to know Void is town and seems responsible for the blocked vote.
This game is a mess. I don't feel comfortable with blindly following Seppel in this.
Kosa: voting Void won't help us at this point.
I also have no "fear" of Macius being lynched. It's just clear that there isn't support for that wagon right now and we are at deadline. Honestly, after that post Rhand, I'm ready to come for you on Day 2.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Add these to my case a few pages back. They speak for themselves.
@Tom:
Here's my case on TCMT: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10137397&postcount=514
Don't follow Seppel. But look at Silver's TMCT case. His voting patterns show a scum mindset. His latest naked vote on Asenion is even more evidence of this.
Good, then you won't NK me tonight
Stardust: do you think it possible that both wagons are scum? I find that very improbable for a D1 end and I feel worse about Asenion than about TMCT.
Possible, of course, but as you say, improbable. Hell, they could both be town, but thinking one is scum certainly doesn't clear the other. I can't remember a single direct interaction between the two of them.
So you feel worse about Asenion... why? That's the question we need answered.
Unvote
Vote TMCT
Or...it could be read as trying to end speculation because it was pointless, which is what Occam says.
That is correct. It was flimsy reasoning and I was retracting from a bad attack. So?
I didn't vote Macius because I thought he was at L-2. Why is that concept so alien to everyone pressing me on it? Saying "I want you to claim" was my vote.
I see where you're coming from on the fishing matter. My reasoning was that Macius is a genuine player and I wanted to see if he, if town, had been considering what pro-town uses his ability had. So in that sense, yeah, I was trying to get insight into his thoughts.
I poked KK and AG for lurking, not Asenion. Which is important because they've been very vocal on D1 in every game I've played with them.
I said swishh flipping town didn't have much bearing on Asenion's alignment, not that he's town.
I was expressing doubt that the dayvig is town in an Iso speciality, which seems like a reasonable statement.
Not even remotely close to a smear. I was responding to Rhand, who called out Guardman for not voting Macius. Guardman and I had the same reason for not voting Macius at that time.
Not "again." I went from thinking he was town to thinking he was scum. One reversal.
That's OOG; I've had **** content in all of my games.
I'm Silraven, Water Nymph, Town Healer. Once per Night I may choose a player; if they would be killed they aren't instead. The first time I'm killed in the game, if I've stopped the death of another player I come back to life at the start of the next Day.
Have fun town.
Unvote.
Can you ask Iso if you would flip when killed, then come back to life as confirmed town?
Unvote.
Can you ask Iso if you would flip town, then come back to life as confirmed town?
The only claims that would have earned my unvote were a Doc or Cop variant, dang it. Ok, who can we lynch toDay? Don't waste time on me, my claim would clear me too. Who does that leave? We have 24 hours to decide I think.
I'm down for Stormblind if that has traction, although in this deadline situation I'm open to suggestions.
Vote Stormblind
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
At this point, we need fewer claims. To that end, I still say that the scummiest person who's claimed already is Macius. It's not really what I'd like to see happen, but it's better than flailing around and trying to case a brand new suspect and see a full wagon to completion. If we get a Macius flip, we can at least have some solid info to go on from there.
Tom is still an option that's on the table as well, I feel, but I think that Macius's death gives us more information to work with than Tom's does.
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@TCMT -- I have some replies to some of your stuff, but I'm not going to bother wasting the time to type it up -- your claim puts you beyond reproach. I'll only close by noting that the "you hadn't posted in 3 days" bit was written under the impression that you were still around to some degree. Obviously, as you pointed out, you were not, and that makes that point null. I always hate bringing up activity complaints, because it's impossible to say when people are busy vs when they're lurking -- I've found compromise in that I bring it up when I case someone, if relevant, and then apologize if it comes back that they had IRL stuff to do.
So, to that end, you have my apologies regarding that point.
Unvote TCMT; Vote Macius
@Iso: When exactly is the deadline?
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