Yep, I think it comes down to Jey* Rick Santorum right now, which for me means Jey. PR lying speculation is just that—speculation. Please keep it in mind for if Jey flips town though.
vote jey
I'll consent to being lynched Today if people are less certain on me, though.
First, I don't get a sense of what you think about this; the "analysis" portion of the VC analysis appears to be missing. I see you say that you are supplying things to be looked at more closely, but I think it behooves you to do so first.
Also, you say this: "The colors being used are present to identify where scum/town votes typically go. The colors do not represent confirmed town/scum."
Looking at the wagons, we have:
Could you elucidate the thought process behind these patterns? Where did they come from? I don't really see any pattern here, and it doesn't even appear to match up with reality as several scum votes don't line up with the "expected" scum votes. So... What is the point?
I've read all of the posts you've quoted several times and drawn my own conclusions about them. What are your conclusions?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Have a little free time at work. Going to try and get something up. Sorry for the delay, life has been chaotic, and I didn't want to rush things today, given it being lylo.
Have a little free time at work. Going to try and get something up. Sorry for the delay, life has been chaotic, and I didn't want to rush things today, given it being lylo.
Exactly this.
There is no rushing toDay, Megs. Your post about VC analysis felt as if you were trying to rush the game along by painting me scummy for doing something that was obv. incomplete that is going to be completed. That being said, back to the "busywork" as Megs calls it.
So my objective was to read through the game from Meg's perspective, and try and clear the town read I had on him before doing so.
I wanted to try and establish what mindset he had to be coming from in order to make his posts, and either solidify my read, or give me pause to back off and re-evaluate.
I've completed the read through, and the ultimate conclusion is that I found nothing that indicated a lack of town mindset.
There are things that I can see coming from scum - the early game 'apathy' is something that is easily faked by scum in an attempt to coast, as well as the late game burst of involvement and effort.
But those are things that can just as easily come from disconnected town, who gets invested in the game and starts caring as it evolves.
I'm wary of the claim (vanilla), of the lack of any kind of mechanical clear, and of the spurt of activity once a few mafia died. Those all point towards plausible mafia, or a plausible neutral - but my gut still maintains that he's town.
I know I keep going back to it, but I just can't put a scum mindset into the early game interactions I had with Rick. I gave him a list of names, and there were two scum in that list. I think that's the key point - I just can't fathom a mafia member blatantly refusing to give reads on their fellow scum - it just looks too bad down the road, and it's a chance to get reads on record and distance.
So if Rick is our last bad guy, I think he has to be a neutral.
But... what? He's not a survivor, or the game would presumably be over. A serial killer? Who never killed, despite not being under suspicion, and only started killing once the last mafia died? I don't see it. There's no unaccounted for kills.
No, Rick is town. If he's scum, I can't build a case for it. Behaviorally, it doesn't fit. The interactions read genuine, and there's nothing that sets off any major alarms. He doesn't fit as a mafia member, he doesn't fit as a neutral, barring extreme edge cases where he somehow shot into protection or the same targets mafia selected every night.
So that leaves Void.
Void played fairly well given the hand he was dealt. He just ran out of mislynches one day too soon.
Like, go back and look at his posts Yesterday.
Quote from Void »
Vote: Tom
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
Quote from Void »
We must lynch Tom toDay.
If Tom is the SK then he could answer the question (falsely) and out right win the game Tomorrow. This is too much of a risk for Tomorrow involving Tom's Role.
Tom, I know you must not lilke this information, but it is the cold hard truth. There is simply too much risk with your Role going into Tomorrow. If you were confirmed Town, then it would be a different story, but you're not. Sorry, Tom, but it's what needs to be done.
Quote from Void »
Voxx
What reaction were you expecting to get from Tom? He's already explained how he feels about the current situation. If anything he would have been repeating himself.
How is it not the best option? If Tom lives tomorrow he can lynch anyone he chooses with his Double Vote. If he is the SK. then we are screwed.
I've had a Town read on you for a while now, Voxx. But now your play is starting to change.
You talk about the Tom being the "Safest Play", but in actuality it is the correct play toDay. It's ITT on why and yet you're focus is on trying to find something else. Your taking the situation and making it about yourself and not anyone else.
If Tom flips Town. then I believe you are indeed the SK.
The almost... apologetic nature of his posts to Tom reads forced. Mix that in with the insistence that we 'must' lynch Tom, and then attempting to set up a dichotomy on me with that post, when I express doubt on the Tom wagon?
Yeah, he's scum.
Then there's the curious wording he put forth after I swung the lynch around to Dan:
Quote from Void »
I'm going to be taking a step back now before I implode.
Lynching Dan over Tom took a mislynch off the table, and forced him to shoot Tom last night. It put him in this situation - where he had to be facing two people that had expressed pretty clear cut scum reads against him on the final day.
Which leads to the next thing -
Void's case on me.
I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but the entire premise is flawed. He's trying to paint me as scum based on me having 'inside information', and the interactions with flipped scum - when I can't be mafia. For me to be mafia, they would have to have six members, and have two extra shots. The case also stops pretty abruptly, and doesn't cover anything more recent - maybe because he couldn't spin it in a way that fit the narrative he was trying to build?
It's like a curious mix of him just going through the motions, and flinging **** at the wall and hoping something sticks.
That's not a town mindset. That's a scum mindset that doesn't really think it has a chance to win, but is putting in the expected effort.
Add that in to the analysis I posted yesterday regarding his early game play, and it presents an almost overwhelming picture.
Vote: Void
You can wait for him to finish the vote analysis if you want, Rick, but I think my mind is made up.
Megs, you said earlier in Day 1 that I am acting like scumVoid. Please use my completed scum games from my Blog and prove that I am acting like scumVoid. Thanks.
I'll be happy to do whatever you think will be useful for lynching correctly today... but in the interest of keeping everybody on track, I'll postpone until after you've finished your VC analysis and addressed the various issues on the table.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I probably should have spoilered that, but I don't care. It's near the end game, laziness not allowed, go read it.
Conclusion:
Rick is still town. He's not being lynched. If he's scum, he earned the win and deserves it.
Tom is probably town. I found two posts in the entire thread that I felt could have possibly come from a neutral/scum mindset - the ones where he wanted credit for his AI case. I don't want to lynch him, I don't think.
Void is... possibly scum? I like his role. So there's that. And his night actions are pretty cool. Except for the part where he had a roleblock shot with a scum roleblocker and scum backup roleblocker. That's kind of convenient. Haven't really liked a whole lot else he's done this game (which you can see the highlights of in my post above), but...
I want to lynch Dan. I think Dan is mafia. I think he intentionally took no action when roleblocked N3, and JeY performed the kill. Dan has consistently been redirecting from scum all game, and tunneled into EtR hard. The only thing (and I do mean only thing) giving me pause, is how blatant some of his buddying of scum was (hi IB, JeY, AI), and how genuine the 'welp, game is over' posts were from Jey/Dan, both. But it's quite feasible that it was a gambit. Kill the person that would implicate JeY, have Dan do nothing, and hope to coast to end game by lynching...everyone else? I don't know, it's pretty weak, but they were in a bad position.
Vote: Ganderin_Dan
p.s. sucking up to me by being resolute about this being my town game can't last forever, Dan. Also, that probably works better if other people in the game had access to my notes from C&B and could more easily compare the two.
but seriously Tom has felt like town to me this game. the only thing I can really hold against him is how he handled his PR (aka used it to prove himself town rather than playing it strategically). His badposting is... tom's town MO.
I'd be interested to see anybody with some behavioral reasons for SK Tom though.
I wanted you to prove your vote because if it ever turned off at any point it would be more likely that you are not part of the town. Though an SK might still retain it.
I'm not sure if I trust Tom enough to let him live into Tomorrow. At some point I have to just put my chips down though... we shall see.
I don't think that confirms anything, actually. You're a double voter. If you're scum, game ends if you vote Tomorrow. Period. Unless we're really fast... at shooting you. So, we can't rule it out.
My flavor is what I said it was: I used to kill people, but now I don't. Who, what, where, when, and why can be located in wikipedia.
I'm not criticizing your play to make you feel bad or anything. I am just not interested in losing because the guy with the double vote decides to do his own thing. No reason for you to take it personally.
I did post info: Read Cyouni's Day 1 posts. I found his interactions with void interesting.
And I welcome a case on me if you think there is one (HINT: THERE ISN'T).
So I was about to come in and declare Tom confirmed town but then that happened.
So we may have just lost.
Anyway, if it's relevant, some analysis I typed up earlier:
Voxxicus does feel townie to me, and not just because of his recent spurt of activity. His reveal of the kill early in the game strikes me as a pro-town activity. I don't see how that went down as SK material, just in my recollection. I'm unhappy that RR was Voxx's major opponent D2 and then died N2... but that's WIFOM.
Dan I'd respond but you just got lynched so there's no point.
@void: Yes, I remember RR being blocked N1. I need to see if there were any other claims for that. I don't think there's anything to say about the rest of your responses.
Confirmed town because if you were scum you would have hammered immediately without all of the words because you would win.
You are now confirmed town in my eyes, whereas you weren't before. I mean, if you are scum, GG, but otherwise I think we have just made POE a lot easier.
Oh, AI claimed the kill on Cyouni? Ok, I believe that.
Also my thought process is thus:
1. Tom hasn't hammered. He's town, or else he would have hammered and won.
2. Oh ****, Tom hammered. We might have just lost.
3. If we didn't just lose, Tom is guaranteed town.
It's a bit of a tautology but... yeah. My point is that if you are scum we are almost literally dead in the water here and you might as well just tell us so that we can end the game now. Since this is not happening, you are town.
If you want to look back at my posts or if you remember it, I was pushing for Tom's lynch all day. The risk vs. reward was not a big enough pay off, but yet the most of you went against me. But that is moot not since Tom was indeed town.
With these End of Day Vote Counts we have the following:
Void
Blue – 4
Red – 1
Rick Santorum
Blue – 2
Red – 0
Voxxicus
Blue – 1
Red – 2
Megs
You were on a third of the wagons that led to a player being lynched. You said that you like to start wagons, but yet you are only started one the wagons you were involved in and for that one, IB wagon) you had been asked to supply a case prior which gave you reason to jump onto the IB wagon on the start of Day 5. You had been flinging mud in IB’s direction prior by saying he is probably scum, but never did anything to prove it until you were prodded by Seppel. Even then you didn’t have case IB. You could have cased me since you had been calling for it all game. So, why did you case IB over myself or anyone else at that time?
Looking back on Day 1, you never once commented on LoT. Why is this? The quotes I proved from you in the VC post for Day 1 came after most were switching to the LoT wagon. It makes little sense for you not to mention LoT once.
Looking back on Day2, prior to the killjoy being Day Vig’d. The only comment you made about killjoy was that he was at L-2 and nothing else. Why did you avoid commenting on killjoy and his wagon?
Looking at the VC’s I see that you were on the Alpha wagon, after the interactions between myself, Alpha and Seppel and after the Name Claim, why did you take so long to vote Alpha? You then unvoted for a reason that made no sense Re: SK Gambit. Even if Alpha was a SK this game that would be no reason to unvote him. Seppel even pointed out why it went against the spirit of the game. Why did you not get back on the Alpha wagon? “Suspending suspicion of Void” Yeah, like that ever happened this game. You’ve been harping on me all game.
Day 3 Lynching VC we have you at the beginning of the IB wagon. You had cased IB the prior the Day at the request of Seppel. I already covered some of this above, as you saw. And I don’t see the need to repeat it here.
Looking at the Day 4 lynching VC we have you again. Something interesting caught my eye about your post. Here is your post again:
Yep, I think it comes down to Jey* Rick Santorum right now, which for me means Jey. PR lying speculation is just that—speculation. Please keep it in mind for if Jey flips town though.
vote jey
I'll consent to being lynched Today if people are less certain on me, though.
Now then, the thing that caught my eye is “Please keep in mind for if Jey flips town” The way you worded this made it hard to read, but then I figured out why. The way the line should have read is “Please keep this in mind if Jey flips town”. But since you worded the sentence with the “for” it should have read “Please keep this mind for WHEN Jey flips town” inb4 semantics, but “for if” doesn’t make sense in the English language. And since your primary language is English I believe this could be a slip.
Continuing on to the Day 6 VC analysis we don’t find you on the wagon. You went back on forth on Tom most of the Day. You didn’t clearly make up your mind about Tom until Dan was lynched. The other part of your posts was you trying to get the player base to read the interactions between myself and Cyouni from Day 1 while calling me scummy in the process. You never did any of the leg work to show the interactions or analysis of what those interactions meant. You basically told the Town to go and read it and draw your own conclusions rather than put forth material that could be analyzed. Why is this, Megs? Unless I am mistaken you never “cased” me until toDay. Would you mind explaining why that is? And if you did case me prior, then please quote it.
Voxx
Voxx you were on half the wagons and most of your voting posts were weak or had little to no reasoning. As for the VC's you landed two votes that more commonly a scum voting location and those two wagons happened to be on LoT and Teh JeY. Both of which you barely did any work to get on there wagon and went unnoticed IIRC.
Looking back at your posts on Day 1 you said “Void is someone I am not interested in. Too many scum read voting for him” (paraphrased). I looked back at your reads at the time and found these reads: EtR and LoT scum. And Town reads on Megs and Seppel. Looking further back at the EtR and LoT posts I don’t see anything indicative from either of them that they were willing to lynch me let alone vote me. Would you please clarify this information?
Then looking at your Vote that got you onto the LoT wagon is a rather weak reason to get on his wagon considering the information was already touched on. You then don’t post anything for the Day. Since you had been mentioning LoT in your previous posts I would assume that you had read some of his posts. Actually, I know you did because you wanted to “swing” the votes over to LoT and away from EtR because of a single post from LoT. Why did you not make any comments about LoT’s posting describing what you saw? Also, why did you avoid interactions with LoT?
Looking at the Day 2 VC prior to killjoy being shot we find you on the wagon for a reason that a lot of players used to get on the wagon, myself included. The evidence provided did support a scum mind set. But my question is not about this post specifically, but rather a about a comment you made here:
Void is very likely town because of the push onto him in opposition to LoT - if Kill Joy and RobRoy are both town thennnn maybe? But he's pretty solidly town at the moment.
You mentioned that I might be scum if RR and killjoy flip town. I would like to you explain how you assumed my alignment based on their (RR and killjoy) interactions/posts.
Now looking at the Lynching VC for Day 2 we see that you did not vote Alpha. I’m going to quote one of your posts again, this time focusing on a specific portion here:
AI pushed the LoT lynch in opposition to Eron, when the only way that makes any sense from a mafia perspective is if Eron was a mafia power role and Eron/AI were trying to get town credit lynching a goon.
Or AI is our SK. Because it's not me.
You claim the only way this makes sense is if Eron/Alpha are scum and LoT is the goon. But we now know this is not the case. Would you please explain what helped you draw your conclusion above?
Looking at the Lynching VC for Day 3 we find you not voting IB. It was a rather quick Day and you only got the one post in for the Day which I quoted in a post above. You make no mention of IB, but that is understandable since your post came during Twilight. Your post also shows that you had been tunneling on EtR for a while. And lastly, your “Random Thought” about me. You make mention that you had a “Super Strong Town” read on me because of players that were pushing for my wagon at the time in opposition to LoT. You then say that don’t think any scum were pushing my wagon and that that is perplexing. Would you please tell me why that is perplexing? And why that would indicate me to be Scum?
Moving along to the Day 4 Lynching VC we find you on the wagon, but there is something different about your vote here. It’s naked, completely. As a matter of fact, it is your first post of the Day 4. Your only other post was asking if everyone had claimed. You skirted by the Day while posting no content at all. I didn’t see anything during that Day that said you would be V/LA for any amount of time. Unless you posted it prior to the beginning of Day 4. If so, then just repost/quote it to save us time.
For Day 6 I find it amusing that accuse Dan of tunneling on EtR when you were doing the same, if not, then worse than Dan was tunneling. Also, there is nothing that supports your comment that Dan was Role Blocked Night 3 and you never attempted to correct this information. You just slipped.
I believe that Voxx is the final Mafiate.
I would cast my vote now, but Megs wants me to respond to him and I won't be able to get that done until tomorrow.
Which means that if you were town (you aren't), I would be confirmed scum to you.
Acting cautious and withholding your vote is just a bad attempt at trying to look town.
@Rick - I'll answer anything you are interested in, if you want to quote things - but not responding point by point to the confirmed scum's post when I have limited time.
I voted for for this post very early on. It was a serious vote, because void was unvoting for no reason, which raised a flag.
While you take as unvoting for no reason I see it differently. I was beginning to take the game seriously which, for me, marks the end of RVS. This is more opinion based than anything else. I don’t see how my post has any scum motivation behind it. What benefit would I get from unvoting at the point?
Later on we have the multi-scum pileup starting with my post 79. Void suggests this is WIFOM, I look at it more as catching a bunch of newb scum with their pants down (I think this was the first scum game for all of JeY, LoT, and Tyzmo).
You’re going to have to quote more than just your one post for me to understand the context of the situation. You posted more than once “Let’s lynch void” comment. I’m also not going to take the time to go back and look for it either. I’ve been busting my ass this Day. I would apprecicate a little bit of extra work from you, but, I am not expecting you to comply with this since this would likely qualify as “manliness busy work” to you.
I found that void was ignoring me a lot here, which was also a flag. People that try to handwave and ignore things until they go away are often doing so for a reason (read: because they are scum).
Why is it only a scum motivation to ignore someone early on? Town is just as capable as Scum to do this. I didn’t respond to you because I didn’t see the need too. You were calling for my lynch when no one else was interested. That makes your request moot and not worth commenting on. I did respond eventually though and that was only because you prodded me to do so.
No votes here despite having two good candidates. More interesting is Lennon's response post "you're quick to jump on my back." Obviously that was an overreaction to light pressure (not even a vote, as I suggested). However, I am wondering if this was a buddy mad at another buddy getting on his case. This is unclear.
At that point in the game I was unsure of their alignments and was scum hunting. You quoted the post where I was scum hunting. I don’t see what your trying to get at here.
A little while later we have void's response to the people voting lennon. I find his approach here strange. First he is clearly on the offensive, with an aggressive bash on Lennon, but he immediately turns around and says that lennon's just low-hanging fruit, without explaining why, and votes (plus a fos) on the two people who did vote for lennon. The argument for voting anak is really tenuous, as well.
You can’t be serious here.
I didn’t vote for Lennon because so far he posted nothing but fluff and AFAIK Lennon is new to our subforum. When someone is new to our subforum I take a different approach to them because there play style could be anything. Because of that it makes it more difficult to read the newer players. There are still certain tells that would help determine the newer players alignment, but I had not seen any up to that point and that is why I kept questioning him.
As far as the “overreaction” you are referring too. I had not read it that way at the time. And from what I recall not many people jumped on Lennon for it. Singling me out is not that way to go about it. Did you look at what Voxx posted about Lennon after that comment from Lennon? These are the next three posts from Voxx:
Because while there's new!town and new!scum, I don't have a solid enough read to either push for the lynch or draw conclusions on people pushing for their lynch.
My vote is on EtR from early in the game, which TCM had incorrect in votals, annnnnd
it's still going to be on EtR.
I think he's scum.
Part gut, part lack of town mindset in the initial post I pointed out, and part the....passive reaction to my post, where it's like he thought 'maybe if I ignore it it'll go away'.
To help clarify for the mod -
Unvote; Vote: EtR
Voxx completely ignores Lennon and seeing that everything that happened between Lennon’s post and Voxx content post we can see that Voxx deliberately avoided a lot of content and focused only on EtR.
While me not voting Lennon may be viewed as bad play, it is worse to completely ignore the post and other content in a catch-up post.
Void's new nickname is softball pitching machine. Like, really now, this is a series of the two softest balls possible for our newbie scum to hit.[/Quote[
“Softball” and you wonder why I got upset/frustrated with your more recent comment. I’m not going any further into this though as we have an understanding of each other.
I’m not sure what you are getting at here. Would you please rephrase it?
221 contains a few points of interest. First is a continuation of the softball treatment of the newb scum. The second I must ask about: void: How did you know that JeY was from another site? When did she tell you this?
Tyzmo's question to void there is also weird. Looking for approval?
Here is the post from The JeY that gave me that information:
But for trufax sake, Iso's been pestering me to come here for a mafia game for... years? Yeah years. I finally made it @_@
Unvote
I think I know what RobRoy is getting at... hmm...
Albeit, the post is open to interpretation, but this is where I got that Teh JeY was from another site.
I fail to see how the question is weird. Even though Tyzmo is confirmed scum I am still reading that sentence as guanine. Of course a scum member would want to know what they are seeing. I’m not the only one who answered this question either, but I think that is moot since neither you or Voxx responded to it IIRC.
General thoughts up to this point: Void likes pointing out a lot of potentially scummy behaviors without committing votes or follow-through to them. He also is basically walking the newb scum through the game through a series of softball questions. Let's get back to it:
Here he implies lennon is scum (when talking about coaching) but still doesn't say he thinks he is explicitly.
Implied =/= believes. I will say it again, Lennon being new affected how I approached him. I was waiting for a scum mind set to present itself. Lennon’s post up to the point were inconclusive of a town or scum mind set.
Remind me, how does coaching support a scum mind set?
I’m going to call out a specific line from the post you quoted: “This makes your vote and conviction towards swishh weak and shows that either you are not thinking things through or you're simply pushing swishh as an easy target.”
The line above shows that I am not convienced of LoT at the time. You are reaching for something that shouldn’t be there, Megs. I could have applied a vote at the time, but I did not see the need to. More so because I thought that a language barrier may have been the issue with LoT being from Sweden? (Did I get his Flag right?)
Remember this? Would you mind explaining what you were talking about here? I presume that the game in question has ended by this point.
The game was HTTYD Mafia, Basic #69. I was the Mafia Moderator and being that was my first time being a Mafia Moderator gave me a new perspective to the game. Anyone would benefit from being a Mafia Moderator.
I'll repost this post I made rather than resummarize. Read the posts prior. I found what I thought to be a contradiction in mindset here. This is the thing that Cyouni was noticing as well, which was my "case" on void Yesterday.
Megs, as scum I have jumped to conclusions. I’m sure there have been others, but I’m not going to waste my time looking over multiple game threads to find this information. Saying that players who jump to conclusions are Town is disgustingly gross. If that was the case than EVERY scum member would jump to conclusions to try and confirm themselves as Town. As a matter of fact, DRey comes to mind when jumping to conclusions as scum. He’s very good at playing stupid as scum and has gotten away with it a few times.
Void never responds to this, instead choosing to try and clear lennon using Tyzmo's posts.
If you’re going to accuse me of things, then you need to bring forward the posts/quotes/links that will lead me there. I’ve done more than my fair share of work toDay. It’s time for someone else to step up and do some “busy work”, Megs.
We have a seppelquote about void emulating his towngame here. I think I've played with scum void twice, I honestly forget if I've played with him as town.
What are you getting at here, Megs? The way you left this comment it looks like you believe Seppel. Would mind walking me through this one?
Megs, go read some of my games (both town and scum) and then come back here with this post from Cyouni. You will see that what Cyouni posted is more of a null tell in my book rather than a scum tell. I’m a known player having context issues and for having trouble explaining myself. I’m not saying that this information clears me, but if you’re going to quote a post of that nature you better know the background behind completely. Otherwise, it will be bite you in the ass. Luckily for you, you don’t do “busy work” otherwise you would have known this about me.
Here I give void for pointing this error out, but for not voting. At this point in time void has no vote out.
Seriously, Megs? Look at the post. I was unsure if it was slip. I wanted opinions and got one from Wessel. There was nothing conclusive that pointed towards LoT slipping. Only afterwards did come to light that is was a slip with another scum member.
[QUOTE=Lord of Tresserhorn;/comments/10873319]The request for a name claim came from Seppel. Seeing as Seppel entered the game by vigging scum, and scum that nobody was looking into at the moment at that, I would say that Seppel is as close to confirmed town as we're going to get at the moment. So at this point I take a request from Seppel as a request from town.
Because Seppel killed scum you believe him to be town. While the razor does point in that direction Seppel is far from confirmed town.
Would you please list your top suspects for me?
You're getting close to the world record of worst mafia posts in a single game of mafia.
It's also topical!
You’re leaving out the post where I tell Seppel that I put him into the same skill level as kpaca. Once I posted this, Seppel then stopped commenting about my posts how “bad” they were looking.
General thoughts up to this point: Void is still dodging a lot of questions and handwaving when called on it. It feels like he tried to engineer a bus on LoT with his "factually incorrect" vote, as well as the trap he set with the "without revealing your role" quote.
I fail to see how that is incorrect. Tom asked Seppel why it was and Seppel never said why it is. Perhaps you would like to demonstrate how it is incorrect?
In order for something to be a trap there needs to be outcome. Looking back at the posts you can see where the communication broke down and I CORRECTED that was meant. Please tell me what trap I was going for when I corrected what was meant.
I've completed the read through, and the ultimate conclusion is that I found nothing that indicated a lack of town mindset.
If this is the case, then why did you not supply any posts/quotes from Megs to show the work? You’ve been doing this a lot this game. Posting stuff without showing the work. Hell, most of the game you have been calling me scum without showing why. This post here is your first attempt at casing me. Everything else you said about me was in passing with minimal content..
There are things that I can see coming from scum - the early game 'apathy' is something that is easily faked by scum in an attempt to coast, as well as the late game burst of involvement and effort.
But those are things that can just as easily come from disconnected town, who gets invested in the game and starts caring as it evolves.
I'm wary of the claim (vanilla), of the lack of any kind of mechanical clear, and of the spurt of activity once a few mafia died. Those all point towards plausible mafia, or a plausible neutral - but my gut still maintains that he's town.
I know I keep going back to it, but I just can't put a scum mindset into the early game interactions I had with Rick. I gave him a list of names, and there were two scum in that list. I think that's the key point - I just can't fathom a mafia member blatantly refusing to give reads on their fellow scum - it just looks too bad down the road, and it's a chance to get reads on record and distance.
So if Rick is our last bad guy, I think he has to be a neutral.
But... what? He's not a survivor, or the game would presumably be over. A serial killer? Who never killed, despite not being under suspicion, and only started killing once the last mafia died? I don't see it. There's no unaccounted for kills.
No, Rick is town. If he's scum, I can't build a case for it. Behaviorally, it doesn't fit. The interactions read genuine, and there's nothing that sets off any major alarms. He doesn't fit as a mafia member, he doesn't fit as a neutral, barring extreme edge cases where he somehow shot into protection or the same targets mafia selected every night.
You start of by saying that Megs showed “apathy” in early parts of the game, a behavior that is known to come from scum, then you mention the lack of activity and the sudden spurt of activity, still behavior, but in the end you claim that Megs cannot be cased behaviorally. Your line of thought does not add up with what you are saying here.
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
Quote from Void »
We must lynch Tom toDay.
If Tom is the SK then he could answer the question (falsely) and out right win the game Tomorrow. This is too much of a risk for Tomorrow involving Tom's Role.
Tom, I know you must not lilke this information, but it is the cold hard truth. There is simply too much risk with your Role going into Tomorrow. If you were confirmed Town, then it would be a different story, but you're not. Sorry, Tom, but it's what needs to be done.
Quote from Void »
Voxx
What reaction were you expecting to get from Tom? He's already explained how he feels about the current situation. If anything he would have been repeating himself.
How is it not the best option? If Tom lives tomorrow he can lynch anyone he chooses with his Double Vote. If he is the SK. then we are screwed.
I've had a Town read on you for a while now, Voxx. But now your play is starting to change.
You talk about the Tom being the "Safest Play", but in actuality it is the correct play toDay. It's ITT on why and yet you're focus is on trying to find something else. Your taking the situation and making it about yourself and not anyone else.
If Tom flips Town. then I believe you are indeed the SK.
The almost... apologetic nature of his posts to Tom reads forced. Mix that in with the insistence that we 'must' lynch Tom, and then attempting to set up a dichotomy on me with that post, when I express doubt on the Tom wagon?
I had a Town read on Tom for a majority of the game. It was at that point where Tom’s role was to much risk for not enough reward. We have gone over this plenty of times now and yet you still push that I am wrong for doing so. We were DAMN lucky that Tom was Town. And EVERYONE knows it. I cannot wait for the end game to come to discuss this more with everyone.
Then there's the curious wording he put forth after I swung the lynch around to Dan:
Quote from Void »
I'm going to be taking a step back now before I implode.
Lynching Dan over Tom took a mislynch off the table, and forced him to shoot Tom last night. It put him in this situation - where he had to be facing two people that had expressed pretty clear cut scum reads against him on the final day.
Please explain how the Mafiate/SK was FORCED to shoot Tom last Night? Did Tom KNOW who the Mafiate/SK was? No. Therefore Tom was not a major threat to the Mafiate/SK. How can you say that lynching Dan took a mislynch off the table? If Tom had been lynched it STILL would have been a mislynch.
Going further, Tom was suspicious of me. You are using the NK as WIFOM to determine that I am the one who killed Tom last Night for the reason he stated. This is not a town way of going about this.
I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but the entire premise is flawed. He's trying to paint me as scum based on me having 'inside information', and the interactions with flipped scum - when I can't be mafia. For me to be mafia, they would have to have six members, and have two extra shots. The case also stops pretty abruptly, and doesn't cover anything more recent - maybe because he couldn't spin it in a way that fit the narrative he was trying to build?
It's like a curious mix of him just going through the motions, and flinging **** at the wall and hoping something sticks.
That's not a town mindset. That's a scum mindset that doesn't really think it has a chance to win, but is putting in the expected effort.
Add that in to the analysis I posted yesterday regarding his early game play, and it presents an almost overwhelming picture.
Vote: Void
Hey, Voxx, instead of doing a half-assed response how about you go through the motions and point out what is flawed, what is me painting you as scum, which interactions you are referring too.
Also, my case didn’t stop short. I went through each and everyDay and commented on what saw.
You can wait for him to finish the vote analysis if you want, Rick, but I think my mind is made up.
And uh. If you're scum, well played.
Please don't be scum.
Why do you only “think” your mind is made up? You’ve called me confirmed scum. That fact that you have to “think” shows pause that you unsure. This also goes along with the line of “And uh. If you’re scum, well player” also shows an inconsistent mind set.
Vote: Voxxicus
I’m more sure of Voxxicus than you Megs. Megs, if you are scum, then congratulations. The game is in your hands.
void I will read through some games of yours before I vote or anything. Also, thank you for replying. I know the game is "on me" at this point, so I'll try to get through this as soon as possible but I am pretty busy at the moment with school and job hunting, so I have to postpone for a bit.
We played together in Ghost Story and Homestuck, but you replaced in both times. Do you have an example of a scum game you played from the beginning to the end?
MGM I can use as an example for your town game. Is that a good representation?
I should also probably review the hunger games mafia for Voxxicus.
In the meanwhile, please, continue to case each other and try to convince me to vote the other way. The more info and interactions we have the better.
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i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
You're confirmed scum because Meg could have hammered you to win, if he was scum.
I mean, it's at least theoretically possible that he's scum and is dragging this out just for his own amusement, but it'd be a dick move, and completely pointless, when he could have won it when I voted for you. So that's not a scenario worth even considering.
You weren't confirmed scum when I made the vote post. After Meg posted and didn't hammer, you were. Trying to sling mud at that is bordering on comical, and shows that you aren't even reading the game - just cherry picking things, and hoping what you fling at the wall sticks.
And regarding the whole Tom thing - town doesn't lynch someone they have a town read on, I don't care what their role is. The way you insisted that we 'had' to lynch him, despite being apologetic and saying you thought he was town is just...laughable. There was an obvious better solution - lynching someone that you actually thought was scum. Trying to force the lynch through on him for role reasons was not a town mindset.
Let's say that we had actually lynched Tom. Then you shoot me or Rick, and it's you, Me/Rick, and Dan alive. Dan had been unbelievably scummy, and there's almost no chance he wouldn't have been the lynch that day. Not lynching Tom did remove a mislynch for you off the table. As it forced you to shoot him instead. Since he would be confirmed town the next day if he didn't double vote to win.
But I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you. If there's anything Megs wants me to clarify to help him make the right decision, I will. I mean, I'm not blaming you for the flailing and misrepresentation - it's your only chance to win. But I'm also not going to spend a ton of time picking it apart unless Megs needs me to.
I won't be around for 24-36 hours, most likely - out of town meeting tomorrow and such.
Checks and Balances is probably the best game to look at, Megs. Large games vs. Small games are pretty drastically different for me. Maybe you can look at the final day there - Void and I were both alive at end game. I'm not a fan of meta, but it might help from an outside perspective.
void I will read through some games of yours before I vote or anything. Also, thank you for replying. I know the game is "on me" at this point, so I'll try to get through this as soon as possible but I am pretty busy at the moment with school and job hunting, so I have to postpone for a bit.
We played together in Ghost Story and Homestuck, but you replaced in both times. Do you have an example of a scum game you played from the beginning to the end?
MGM I can use as an example for your town game. Is that a good representation?
I should also probably review the hunger games mafia for Voxxicus.
In the meanwhile, please, continue to case each other and try to convince me to vote the other way. The more info and interactions we have the better.
I'm not rushing you in any sense. Both of you allowed me to get out what I wanted and now I shall do the same. Besides, it's not like I am going to self hammer at this point. No one in the right mind, whether town or scum, would do so here.
Scum games you are looking for: StarCraft Mafia, 1984 Mafia and Deitriptychos Mafia.
Town games you are looking for: MGM works, but I had a bad Day 1. The last two town games of mine where I started was Basic #70, but I replace out late Day 1 to RL and Basic #72 where I lived to End Game.
If those don't work for you, then you check my Mafia Stats in my Blog. All my listed games are linked to the game thread for easy access.
You weren't confirmed scum when I made the vote post. After Meg posted and didn't hammer, you were. Trying to sling mud at that is bordering on comical, and shows that you aren't even reading the game - just cherry picking things, and hoping what you fling at the wall sticks.
Confirmed scum in your eyes. You keep implying that I am confirmed scum to Megs with words.
And regarding the whole Tom thing - town doesn't lynch someone they have a town read on, I don't care what their role is. The way you insisted that we 'had' to lynch him, despite being apologetic and saying you thought he was town is just...laughable. There was an obvious better solution - lynching someone that you actually thought was scum. Trying to force the lynch through on him for role reasons was not a town mindset.
What don’t you understand about risk vs reward? This common sense Voxx and you are being stubbornly stupid over it.
I will say it one last time: Yes, I had a Town read on Tom. I was not going to throw the game in off the chance that Tom was not Town. Tom and yourself swayed the lynch away from Tom because only you TWO would KNOW that Tom is TOWN.
If it came down to a possible Scum Double Voter living in a LyLo situation and I will always take out the Double Voter prior to LyLo. It’s common sense to Mafia. The fact that you arguing this to the near fullest extent is really weird.
Let's say that we had actually lynched Tom. Then you shoot me or Rick, and it's you, Me/Rick, and Dan alive. Dan had been unbelievably scummy, and there's almost no chance he wouldn't have been the lynch that day. Not lynching Tom did remove a mislynch for you off the table. As it forced you to shoot him instead. Since he would be confirmed town the next day if he didn't double vote to win.
You need to better explain the logic on how lynching Tom saved a Mislynch for the Town. Because the logic you have used is extremely flawed and doesn’t make an ounce of sense.
As I stated prior, how would last anti-town member be forced to NK Tom? You need to explain this in full. Walk me through your thought process that helped you arrive at this conclusion.
Also, how was Dan unbelievably scummy? Please detail this information for me.
But I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you. If there's anything Megs wants me to clarify to help him make the right decision, I will. I mean, I'm not blaming you for the flailing and misrepresentation - it's your only chance to win. But I'm also not going to spend a ton of time picking it apart unless Megs needs me to.
Once again you have thrown baseless accusations without showing the work. “Flailing” and “Misrepresentation” needs to be shown. All you’re doing is flinging mud in my direction and hoping that Megs follows suit with you.
You should be picking it apart my posts to prove this information. I’ve already mentioned why you should be doing this, but you don’t care about anything I say. I’m “confirmed scum” to you and you keep implying that I am “confirmed scum” to Megs as well. You have done nothing to prove that I am scum.
razor says voxxicus is our SK. too much has to have gone exactly as planned for void to be scum. but behaviorally I dislike void much more.
Void: Can you fully break down to me your Day 2 actions? This is the one thing that sticks out at me as the worst thing you've done this game. To recap:
1. You started out voting Killjoy.
2. Killjoy gets shot. Immediately before the flip you say "I think killjoy might flip town." I don't believe you unvoted him before that happened.
3. After this you voted somebody else. (Swishh maybe? I forget)
4. Only after AI is under pressure do you make the reveal, and then AI gets lynched.
There are a few specific aspects of this I'd like you to address:
1. Why did you choose to investigate AI?
2. Why did you not start the day pushing AI?
3. What made you declare that KJ was town just before he flipped so? What specifically changed in between your vote and Seppel's shot?
4. Why did you not begin breadcrumbing until after Killjoy was shot?
5. Why was AI the third person you pushed that Day?
6. Why did you choose to reveal you had investigated him rather than building a behavioral case?
A lot of questions, but your actions that day raise quite a few. I'd appreciate you taking the time to address them.
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razor says voxxicus is our SK. too much has to have gone exactly as planned for void to be scum. but behaviorally I dislike void much more.
Void: Can you fully break down to me your Day 2 actions? This is the one thing that sticks out at me as the worst thing you've done this game. To recap:
1. You started out voting Killjoy.
2. Killjoy gets shot. Immediately before the flip you say "I think killjoy might flip town." I don't believe you unvoted him before that happened.
3. After this you voted somebody else. (Swishh maybe? I forget)
4. Only after AI is under pressure do you make the reveal, and then AI gets lynched.
There are a few specific aspects of this I'd like you to address:
1. Why did you choose to investigate AI?
2. Why did you not start the day pushing AI?
3. What made you declare that KJ was town just before he flipped so? What specifically changed in between your vote and Seppel's shot?
4. Why did you not begin breadcrumbing until after Killjoy was shot?
5. Why was AI the third person you pushed that Day?
6. Why did you choose to reveal you had investigated him rather than building a behavioral case?
A lot of questions, but your actions that day raise quite a few. I'd appreciate you taking the time to address them.
Oops, missed the bluff calling - actually I thought it was because Lennon never posted still - I checked the entire topic previous to that post 2-3 times and didn't see his name, but he actually had one tiny post so meh. By the time I realized it, I found a much better engage to pursue.
I have to say, your stream of consciousness posting is making it difficult for me to discern what you mean.
But, can you tell me why you would think RobRoy would be voting Lennon simply because he hadn't posted? Was pretty early in the game, and he wasn't the only one with low or no posts.
Whenever I see an experienced player talking about “your stream of consciousness” it has been in reference to how easy it is to read that player and that the player is typically Town. Looking at the full response I saw that Alpha was indicating that Teh JeY may be scum. The post felt off and it was my reason for investigating Alpha.
2) I wasn’t sure how to play my role correctly. At first I thought holding the information to myself was the best choice, but as the Day progress and the interactions that I was having Alpha focus on made me realize that a lot would come from Alpha flipping non-town at the time. A Mafiate as we know now. I hadn’t planned on taking any thunder away from Tom, but at that point I realized having two dead scum and third guaranteed scum caught that it would be best to bring the information forward.
3) It was the interactions that Swishh had brought forward regarding Voxx and his 1-Shot Vig claim. I had thought that Swishh had implemented himself and Voxx as scum together and after realizing this it was too late. I was your stream of consciousness posting there and trying to let everyone know what I was seeing. Obviously I was wrong about Swishh.
4) I had breadcrumbed prior to killjoy being shot. My post where I asked Alpha about Voxx’s claim was my first attempt at a breadcrumb. If you like I will find the post where I explained my breadcrumbs in detail and you can see where they all are at.
5) I believe we are going to have a difference of opinion here. Since I had a guilty verdict on Alpha it was just waiting for the right time to come to start my push. Once Voxx claimed his Role is when, from my view point, I started pushing Alpha because I asked Alpha to directly respond to Voxx’s claim. The reason being for that is because the result I received from TCM was “non-town” or “anti-town”. I’m in a lazy mood and don’t want to check the PM, but either line gives the same impression, that there be an anti-town Neutral out there. It could have been a Red Herring, but I’m not sure. Got off subject a little there, but I had Alpha respond to Voxx to see if Alpha might indicate himself being a possible SK, but that is not what I saw. I will pull up the quotes if you want me too.
Like I said at the start of this answer. We may have a difference in opinion on when my push on Alpha began.
6) Would you case somebody that you had a guilty verdict on? Perhaps I was being lazy then, but with a guilty verdict in hand I didn’t see the point of doing the “busy work”. I’m going to be using “busy work” a lot more often now. It’s fun to say.
1. I think I understand you here, but just in case the wires got crossed, can you rephrase? What about AI using the "stream of consciousness" phrase made you think he was scum?
2-6: So as I understand it, you investigated AI N1. You came into D2 with a "not town" result. You saw that there were three kills. After Voxxicus claimed one you decided to needle AI because you suspected that AI might have been an SK. This didn't pan out, which left AI as mafia in your mind. While this is happening, you are voting KJ, who was a scum read from Day 1. By the time Seppel shoots KJ you have changed your mind as to KJ's alignment. After this you move to swishh, while still poking at AI. Eventually you decide to reveal your investigation and we lynch AI.
Sound accurate so far?
Couple questions:
1. Did you breadcrumb on Day 1?
2. Would you have been ok with the Day ending with KJ shot and Swishh lynched?
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i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I'll try to get a summarizing post out sometime this evening, but kind of just feel like I'm waiting on Megs - I've said pretty much everything I have to say, scattered between yesterday/today.
If you (Megs) have any direct questions for me that'd help significantly.
Here's the situation: Void is only scum if he made a bunch of bad plays to bus most of his six-man scumteam and ride it out to endgame.
I don't think that's likely. It's much more likely that you are just the SK.
However, there are enough behavioral irregularities with void that I need to clear those up. That's what I'm doing now.
You get to sit tight and watch void try to clear himself.
I will say right now that two things make me pretty sure that void is actually town. First, JeY's end-of-game posts. That could have been planned, but god damn was it good acting if it was. Second, Tyzmo's super-buddying post back on Day 1. I can't look at that as anything other than blatant scum-on-town buddying.
So I'm working with these things in my brain trying to sort void out. You I don't have anything to say about.
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Void is only scum if he made a bunch of bad plays to bus most of his six-man scumteam and ride it out to endgame.
Sure. But that's why we're in this situation - bussing his team to help him coast to end-game was the point behind it.
By that same token, look at what would have had to transpire for me to be the SK:
I claimed the kill early on day two, which I figured guaranteed I wouldn't make it to the end of the game. Go back and re-read that - the doctor died night one, and I didn't want the vig to claim, because it was just pointless outing of town power roles to get shot. But Seppel insisted, so I figured he had something role-related in mind that would help town, so I did claim. Where's the motivation for doing so as a SK? Being known to have killing power would either get me shot by the scum team, or lynched as the SK before end-game at that point.
Once I had claimed to be a vig, I tried to create ambiguity as to whether or not I was a one-shot or multi-shot to be an appealing roleblock or NK target - as I was simply vanilla at that point. The intention was to be active and pro-town from then on to draw the NK, but the combination of RL interfering, and night actions all but solving the game (or so it seemed) meant there just wasn't much for me to do in mid-game.
On day..three? Four? Whatever day it was, I recognized that it was going to be a matter of lynching the unconfirmeds - so I supported lynching myself then, instead of letting myself reach LYLO as unconfirmed and be a mislynch to lose the game. I have no way of proving that, but I was typing that self-lynch post before Seppel posted right before me. I fully expected to be the lynch that day - how do you reconcile that with SK behavior? I did back off that once people started looking elsewhere, and I wasn't going to advocate my own lynch once we started running out of mislynches - but it was an acceptable outcome of that day, because we still had a few mislynches remaining - and I wanted to avoid what might happen here - me getting mislynched with the game on the line due to role.
Reconcile my refusal to lynch Tom, and extensive effort to case Dan with me being a SK. You, Dan and Void were all seemingly fine with the Tom lynch. It would have been extremely easy for me to just be 'Yeah, sure, he's a double voter - playing it safe seems like the best course of action, even if I'm not entirely sure he's who we're looking for'. And then lay out my case on Dan the next day. Re-read my case on Dan. Try to look at my mindset behind that post, and establish how genuine it reads to you. Try to match the effort and case with being the SK, when I could have just gone along with the Tom lynch, and then made that same case the next day.
It doesn't make sense, because I'm not the SK - I was almost certain I had scum pegged (in Dan), and thought Tom was town, therefore lynching him was dumb.
I acknowledge that the logic is similar on both cases:
I'm only the SK if I played poorly and acted against my own self-interests.
Void is only scum if he acted in a manner that was probably sub-optimal for his team to win.
But since I know he is scum, that means he did act in that way, no matter how strange it may seem. You can read my thoughts on Void in the big wall yesterday - the same points you mention are why I voted Dan over him, even with a lot of interactions reading off, the simulatneous attacking and defending, the late 'claim' on AI, the 'I have a feeling Kill-Joy is town' after it's too late, and...basically almost everything he said and did outside of his claim.
And the claim itself was fishy - a town 1-shot roleblock when the scum had a roleblocker and backup roleblocker isn't something I'd consider balanced. Especially given that the roleblockers were basically the only scum power outside of the NK.
There was convienently only one roleblock on the night that Void claimed to block Eron. We were meant to draw the obvious conclusion that Jey performed the kill, and that the scum team was wiped out - when in actuality, she roleblocked Eron, and Void performed the kill.
I'm aware of how convoluted it seems, when the large scum team probably could have rode out the win without the excessive bussing.
But I think this is pretty apt:
Quote from Sir Conan Doyle »
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Because there were no unaccounted for kills - it would require a perfect storm of night actions for there to have been a SK remaining. With the doc dying on night one, and the kill choices being a little unconventional, I just didn't see it as plausible.
And there was no reason for a SK to hold any kills back, unless they were in explicit danger of being tracked, after Rhand claimed, on top of that.
Obviously now I'm 100% certain that Void has to be mafia vs. a neutral, because of the roleblock/claim/bussing/everything. It would only work with the support of his scum team, and it almost did work - if his push on Tom had gone through, we'd have lost, because I can't see any combination of people remaining lynching Void over Dan.
Well...I think it's all faulty, since he's confirmed scum to me
But I can take a closer look at it. I've kind of just skimmed his stuff today once you self-confirmed, since arguing with scum isn't something I especially like doing, heh. I just get frustrated and devolve into pointing my finger at them and going YOU SCUM! DIE! Which isn't terribly productive.
Main thing that I want to point out is the mindset behind picking AI as a cop target.
I want to draw some parallels to the thought processes behind my vig selection, and his cop selection.
I dismissed AI as a possibility to shoot almost entirely because of his interaction with LoT, and his early position on the LoT wagon - but Void completely ignores those interactions, and his only reasoning for using his sole cop shot is because a post between two flipped scum felt 'off'. I haven't played with Void a ton when he has a power role, but I think he's generally a fairly competent player. Town Void would not have used his 1-shot cop on such a...whimsical feeling, I don't think. Not when he came out with the guns blazing against Kill-Joy and then Swishh.
I was just almost his identical role in Checks and Balances - I was a JOAT with a 1-shot Cop. I, too, used the Cop shot night one, but I used it to try and narrow down the gamestate, and figure things out. I picked someone that was at the back end of the scum lynch wagon on day one, figuring that it was almost a guarantee that a scum had hopped on near the end of the wagon and bussed their buddy. When I got a town result back from that, I attacked the other scum read I had at the back of that wagon, and he ended up being scum.
Town Void was in that game, Town Void saw how I used the 1-shot cop, I don't buy the 'I didn't know how to use the role', for that very reason. I also don't buy him blowing his strongest one-shot on something feeling 'off' rather than interactions with the two flipped scum we had on day one. That's just not a town mindset.
That's scum cherry picking a quote and trying to spin it in his favor, rather than actually showing the thought process behind the selection.
One thing regarding the claim. As SK, failing to claim your kill would have made it a lot worse for you down the road if you had claimed it, or forced you into a vanilla claim (or something like that) which would have put more scrutiny on you (and the rest of us vanillas) for lying.
Claiming the shot makes sense.
As for why you weren't shot, that I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't want to speculate. Also keep in mind that the scum had a roleblocker so there was no real pressing need to actually shoot you that Night even if you had multiple shots.
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Right, but I didn't know they had a roleblocker - I'm just asking you to look at the mindset at the time. It opens me up to getting lynched or shot when the only way a SK can win is to be the last man standing.
I know it's WiFOM'y, but almost everything is at this point. It's also the only way I can remotely defend myself - the fact that I haven't acted in my own interests at all this game. I want to help you make the right decision, but it's ultimately just going to be you trusting your gut and pulling the trigger, so to speak.
I understand, and am not trying to rush you. Just feeling a little frustrated at how little there realistically is that I can do - I've laid everything out that I can about my own thought processes and motivations, and laid the case out on Void. Maybe I can condense it and restate everything, but I have no doubt that you've read through it all multiple times already.
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End of Day 4 Vote Count:
I’m not including End of Day 5 Vote Count since the three of us were not on that wagon.
First, I don't get a sense of what you think about this; the "analysis" portion of the VC analysis appears to be missing. I see you say that you are supplying things to be looked at more closely, but I think it behooves you to do so first.
Also, you say this: "The colors being used are present to identify where scum/town votes typically go. The colors do not represent confirmed town/scum."
Looking at the wagons, we have:
Could you elucidate the thought process behind these patterns? Where did they come from? I don't really see any pattern here, and it doesn't even appear to match up with reality as several scum votes don't line up with the "expected" scum votes. So... What is the point?
I've read all of the posts you've quoted several times and drawn my own conclusions about them. What are your conclusions?
I've also asked you some direct questions Today which I'd appreciate you answering.
I'm usually a lot better with this stuff... I will answer those questions and respond to your case as well.
Exactly this.
There is no rushing toDay, Megs. Your post about VC analysis felt as if you were trying to rush the game along by painting me scummy for doing something that was obv. incomplete that is going to be completed. That being said, back to the "busywork" as Megs calls it.
So my objective was to read through the game from Meg's perspective, and try and clear the town read I had on him before doing so.
I wanted to try and establish what mindset he had to be coming from in order to make his posts, and either solidify my read, or give me pause to back off and re-evaluate.
I've completed the read through, and the ultimate conclusion is that I found nothing that indicated a lack of town mindset.
There are things that I can see coming from scum - the early game 'apathy' is something that is easily faked by scum in an attempt to coast, as well as the late game burst of involvement and effort.
But those are things that can just as easily come from disconnected town, who gets invested in the game and starts caring as it evolves.
I'm wary of the claim (vanilla), of the lack of any kind of mechanical clear, and of the spurt of activity once a few mafia died. Those all point towards plausible mafia, or a plausible neutral - but my gut still maintains that he's town.
I know I keep going back to it, but I just can't put a scum mindset into the early game interactions I had with Rick. I gave him a list of names, and there were two scum in that list. I think that's the key point - I just can't fathom a mafia member blatantly refusing to give reads on their fellow scum - it just looks too bad down the road, and it's a chance to get reads on record and distance.
So if Rick is our last bad guy, I think he has to be a neutral.
But... what? He's not a survivor, or the game would presumably be over. A serial killer? Who never killed, despite not being under suspicion, and only started killing once the last mafia died? I don't see it. There's no unaccounted for kills.
No, Rick is town. If he's scum, I can't build a case for it. Behaviorally, it doesn't fit. The interactions read genuine, and there's nothing that sets off any major alarms. He doesn't fit as a mafia member, he doesn't fit as a neutral, barring extreme edge cases where he somehow shot into protection or the same targets mafia selected every night.
So that leaves Void.
Void played fairly well given the hand he was dealt. He just ran out of mislynches one day too soon.
Like, go back and look at his posts Yesterday.
The almost... apologetic nature of his posts to Tom reads forced. Mix that in with the insistence that we 'must' lynch Tom, and then attempting to set up a dichotomy on me with that post, when I express doubt on the Tom wagon?
Yeah, he's scum.
Then there's the curious wording he put forth after I swung the lynch around to Dan:
Lynching Dan over Tom took a mislynch off the table, and forced him to shoot Tom last night. It put him in this situation - where he had to be facing two people that had expressed pretty clear cut scum reads against him on the final day.
Which leads to the next thing -
Void's case on me.
I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but the entire premise is flawed. He's trying to paint me as scum based on me having 'inside information', and the interactions with flipped scum - when I can't be mafia. For me to be mafia, they would have to have six members, and have two extra shots. The case also stops pretty abruptly, and doesn't cover anything more recent - maybe because he couldn't spin it in a way that fit the narrative he was trying to build?
It's like a curious mix of him just going through the motions, and flinging **** at the wall and hoping something sticks.
That's not a town mindset. That's a scum mindset that doesn't really think it has a chance to win, but is putting in the expected effort.
Add that in to the analysis I posted yesterday regarding his early game play, and it presents an almost overwhelming picture.
Vote: Void
You can wait for him to finish the vote analysis if you want, Rick, but I think my mind is made up.
And uh. If you're scum, well played.
Please don't be scum.
Will read through that after class.
I'll be happy to do whatever you think will be useful for lynching correctly today... but in the interest of keeping everybody on track, I'll postpone until after you've finished your VC analysis and addressed the various issues on the table.
If you want to look back at my posts or if you remember it, I was pushing for Tom's lynch all day. The risk vs. reward was not a big enough pay off, but yet the most of you went against me. But that is moot not since Tom was indeed town.
With these End of Day Vote Counts we have the following:
Void
Blue – 4
Red – 1
Rick Santorum
Blue – 2
Red – 0
Voxxicus
Blue – 1
Red – 2
Megs
You were on a third of the wagons that led to a player being lynched. You said that you like to start wagons, but yet you are only started one the wagons you were involved in and for that one, IB wagon) you had been asked to supply a case prior which gave you reason to jump onto the IB wagon on the start of Day 5. You had been flinging mud in IB’s direction prior by saying he is probably scum, but never did anything to prove it until you were prodded by Seppel. Even then you didn’t have case IB. You could have cased me since you had been calling for it all game. So, why did you case IB over myself or anyone else at that time?
Looking back on Day 1, you never once commented on LoT. Why is this? The quotes I proved from you in the VC post for Day 1 came after most were switching to the LoT wagon. It makes little sense for you not to mention LoT once.
Looking back on Day2, prior to the killjoy being Day Vig’d. The only comment you made about killjoy was that he was at L-2 and nothing else. Why did you avoid commenting on killjoy and his wagon?
Looking at the VC’s I see that you were on the Alpha wagon, after the interactions between myself, Alpha and Seppel and after the Name Claim, why did you take so long to vote Alpha? You then unvoted for a reason that made no sense Re: SK Gambit. Even if Alpha was a SK this game that would be no reason to unvote him. Seppel even pointed out why it went against the spirit of the game. Why did you not get back on the Alpha wagon? “Suspending suspicion of Void” Yeah, like that ever happened this game. You’ve been harping on me all game.
Day 3 Lynching VC we have you at the beginning of the IB wagon. You had cased IB the prior the Day at the request of Seppel. I already covered some of this above, as you saw. And I don’t see the need to repeat it here.
Looking at the Day 4 lynching VC we have you again. Something interesting caught my eye about your post. Here is your post again:
Now then, the thing that caught my eye is “Please keep in mind for if Jey flips town” The way you worded this made it hard to read, but then I figured out why. The way the line should have read is “Please keep this in mind if Jey flips town”. But since you worded the sentence with the “for” it should have read “Please keep this mind for WHEN Jey flips town” inb4 semantics, but “for if” doesn’t make sense in the English language. And since your primary language is English I believe this could be a slip.
Continuing on to the Day 6 VC analysis we don’t find you on the wagon. You went back on forth on Tom most of the Day. You didn’t clearly make up your mind about Tom until Dan was lynched. The other part of your posts was you trying to get the player base to read the interactions between myself and Cyouni from Day 1 while calling me scummy in the process. You never did any of the leg work to show the interactions or analysis of what those interactions meant. You basically told the Town to go and read it and draw your own conclusions rather than put forth material that could be analyzed. Why is this, Megs? Unless I am mistaken you never “cased” me until toDay. Would you mind explaining why that is? And if you did case me prior, then please quote it.
Voxx
Voxx you were on half the wagons and most of your voting posts were weak or had little to no reasoning. As for the VC's you landed two votes that more commonly a scum voting location and those two wagons happened to be on LoT and Teh JeY. Both of which you barely did any work to get on there wagon and went unnoticed IIRC.
Looking back at your posts on Day 1 you said “Void is someone I am not interested in. Too many scum read voting for him” (paraphrased). I looked back at your reads at the time and found these reads: EtR and LoT scum. And Town reads on Megs and Seppel. Looking further back at the EtR and LoT posts I don’t see anything indicative from either of them that they were willing to lynch me let alone vote me. Would you please clarify this information?
Then looking at your Vote that got you onto the LoT wagon is a rather weak reason to get on his wagon considering the information was already touched on. You then don’t post anything for the Day. Since you had been mentioning LoT in your previous posts I would assume that you had read some of his posts. Actually, I know you did because you wanted to “swing” the votes over to LoT and away from EtR because of a single post from LoT. Why did you not make any comments about LoT’s posting describing what you saw? Also, why did you avoid interactions with LoT?
Looking at the Day 2 VC prior to killjoy being shot we find you on the wagon for a reason that a lot of players used to get on the wagon, myself included. The evidence provided did support a scum mind set. But my question is not about this post specifically, but rather a about a comment you made here:
You mentioned that I might be scum if RR and killjoy flip town. I would like to you explain how you assumed my alignment based on their (RR and killjoy) interactions/posts.
Now looking at the Lynching VC for Day 2 we see that you did not vote Alpha. I’m going to quote one of your posts again, this time focusing on a specific portion here:
You claim the only way this makes sense is if Eron/Alpha are scum and LoT is the goon. But we now know this is not the case. Would you please explain what helped you draw your conclusion above?
Looking at the Lynching VC for Day 3 we find you not voting IB. It was a rather quick Day and you only got the one post in for the Day which I quoted in a post above. You make no mention of IB, but that is understandable since your post came during Twilight. Your post also shows that you had been tunneling on EtR for a while. And lastly, your “Random Thought” about me. You make mention that you had a “Super Strong Town” read on me because of players that were pushing for my wagon at the time in opposition to LoT. You then say that don’t think any scum were pushing my wagon and that that is perplexing. Would you please tell me why that is perplexing? And why that would indicate me to be Scum?
Moving along to the Day 4 Lynching VC we find you on the wagon, but there is something different about your vote here. It’s naked, completely. As a matter of fact, it is your first post of the Day 4. Your only other post was asking if everyone had claimed. You skirted by the Day while posting no content at all. I didn’t see anything during that Day that said you would be V/LA for any amount of time. Unless you posted it prior to the beginning of Day 4. If so, then just repost/quote it to save us time.
For Day 6 I find it amusing that accuse Dan of tunneling on EtR when you were doing the same, if not, then worse than Dan was tunneling. Also, there is nothing that supports your comment that Dan was Role Blocked Night 3 and you never attempted to correct this information. You just slipped.
I believe that Voxx is the final Mafiate.
I would cast my vote now, but Megs wants me to respond to him and I won't be able to get that done until tomorrow.
Which means that if you were town (you aren't), I would be confirmed scum to you.
Acting cautious and withholding your vote is just a bad attempt at trying to look town.
@Rick - I'll answer anything you are interested in, if you want to quote things - but not responding point by point to the confirmed scum's post when I have limited time.
Please tell me how I am confirmed scum when you respond to me.
While you take as unvoting for no reason I see it differently. I was beginning to take the game seriously which, for me, marks the end of RVS. This is more opinion based than anything else. I don’t see how my post has any scum motivation behind it. What benefit would I get from unvoting at the point?
You’re going to have to quote more than just your one post for me to understand the context of the situation. You posted more than once “Let’s lynch void” comment. I’m also not going to take the time to go back and look for it either. I’ve been busting my ass this Day. I would apprecicate a little bit of extra work from you, but, I am not expecting you to comply with this since this would likely qualify as “manliness busy work” to you.
Why is it only a scum motivation to ignore someone early on? Town is just as capable as Scum to do this. I didn’t respond to you because I didn’t see the need too. You were calling for my lynch when no one else was interested. That makes your request moot and not worth commenting on. I did respond eventually though and that was only because you prodded me to do so.
At that point in the game I was unsure of their alignments and was scum hunting. You quoted the post where I was scum hunting. I don’t see what your trying to get at here.
You can’t be serious here.
I didn’t vote for Lennon because so far he posted nothing but fluff and AFAIK Lennon is new to our subforum. When someone is new to our subforum I take a different approach to them because there play style could be anything. Because of that it makes it more difficult to read the newer players. There are still certain tells that would help determine the newer players alignment, but I had not seen any up to that point and that is why I kept questioning him.
As far as the “overreaction” you are referring too. I had not read it that way at the time. And from what I recall not many people jumped on Lennon for it. Singling me out is not that way to go about it. Did you look at what Voxx posted about Lennon after that comment from Lennon? These are the next three posts from Voxx:
Voxx completely ignores Lennon and seeing that everything that happened between Lennon’s post and Voxx content post we can see that Voxx deliberately avoided a lot of content and focused only on EtR.
While me not voting Lennon may be viewed as bad play, it is worse to completely ignore the post and other content in a catch-up post.
I will be responding to Voxx next.
If this is the case, then why did you not supply any posts/quotes from Megs to show the work? You’ve been doing this a lot this game. Posting stuff without showing the work. Hell, most of the game you have been calling me scum without showing why. This post here is your first attempt at casing me. Everything else you said about me was in passing with minimal content..
You start of by saying that Megs showed “apathy” in early parts of the game, a behavior that is known to come from scum, then you mention the lack of activity and the sudden spurt of activity, still behavior, but in the end you claim that Megs cannot be cased behaviorally. Your line of thought does not add up with what you are saying here.
I had a Town read on Tom for a majority of the game. It was at that point where Tom’s role was to much risk for not enough reward. We have gone over this plenty of times now and yet you still push that I am wrong for doing so. We were DAMN lucky that Tom was Town. And EVERYONE knows it. I cannot wait for the end game to come to discuss this more with everyone.
I’m scum for following proper procedure in a dangerous situation.
Please explain how the Mafiate/SK was FORCED to shoot Tom last Night? Did Tom KNOW who the Mafiate/SK was? No. Therefore Tom was not a major threat to the Mafiate/SK. How can you say that lynching Dan took a mislynch off the table? If Tom had been lynched it STILL would have been a mislynch.
Going further, Tom was suspicious of me. You are using the NK as WIFOM to determine that I am the one who killed Tom last Night for the reason he stated. This is not a town way of going about this.
Hey, Voxx, instead of doing a half-assed response how about you go through the motions and point out what is flawed, what is me painting you as scum, which interactions you are referring too.
Also, my case didn’t stop short. I went through each and everyDay and commented on what saw.
Why do you only “think” your mind is made up? You’ve called me confirmed scum. That fact that you have to “think” shows pause that you unsure. This also goes along with the line of “And uh. If you’re scum, well player” also shows an inconsistent mind set.
Vote: Voxxicus
I’m more sure of Voxxicus than you Megs. Megs, if you are scum, then congratulations. The game is in your hands.
We played together in Ghost Story and Homestuck, but you replaced in both times. Do you have an example of a scum game you played from the beginning to the end?
MGM I can use as an example for your town game. Is that a good representation?
I should also probably review the hunger games mafia for Voxxicus.
In the meanwhile, please, continue to case each other and try to convince me to vote the other way. The more info and interactions we have the better.
I mean, it's at least theoretically possible that he's scum and is dragging this out just for his own amusement, but it'd be a dick move, and completely pointless, when he could have won it when I voted for you. So that's not a scenario worth even considering.
You weren't confirmed scum when I made the vote post. After Meg posted and didn't hammer, you were. Trying to sling mud at that is bordering on comical, and shows that you aren't even reading the game - just cherry picking things, and hoping what you fling at the wall sticks.
And regarding the whole Tom thing - town doesn't lynch someone they have a town read on, I don't care what their role is. The way you insisted that we 'had' to lynch him, despite being apologetic and saying you thought he was town is just...laughable. There was an obvious better solution - lynching someone that you actually thought was scum. Trying to force the lynch through on him for role reasons was not a town mindset.
Let's say that we had actually lynched Tom. Then you shoot me or Rick, and it's you, Me/Rick, and Dan alive. Dan had been unbelievably scummy, and there's almost no chance he wouldn't have been the lynch that day. Not lynching Tom did remove a mislynch for you off the table. As it forced you to shoot him instead. Since he would be confirmed town the next day if he didn't double vote to win.
But I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you. If there's anything Megs wants me to clarify to help him make the right decision, I will. I mean, I'm not blaming you for the flailing and misrepresentation - it's your only chance to win. But I'm also not going to spend a ton of time picking it apart unless Megs needs me to.
I won't be around for 24-36 hours, most likely - out of town meeting tomorrow and such.
I'm not rushing you in any sense. Both of you allowed me to get out what I wanted and now I shall do the same. Besides, it's not like I am going to self hammer at this point. No one in the right mind, whether town or scum, would do so here.
Scum games you are looking for: StarCraft Mafia, 1984 Mafia and Deitriptychos Mafia.
Town games you are looking for: MGM works, but I had a bad Day 1. The last two town games of mine where I started was Basic #70, but I replace out late Day 1 to RL and Basic #72 where I lived to End Game.
If those don't work for you, then you check my Mafia Stats in my Blog. All my listed games are linked to the game thread for easy access.
You’re phrasing this incorrectly. I am confirmed scum in your eyes. I am not confirmed scum to Megs.
Confirmed scum in your eyes. You keep implying that I am confirmed scum to Megs with words.
What don’t you understand about risk vs reward? This common sense Voxx and you are being stubbornly stupid over it.
I will say it one last time: Yes, I had a Town read on Tom. I was not going to throw the game in off the chance that Tom was not Town. Tom and yourself swayed the lynch away from Tom because only you TWO would KNOW that Tom is TOWN.
If it came down to a possible Scum Double Voter living in a LyLo situation and I will always take out the Double Voter prior to LyLo. It’s common sense to Mafia. The fact that you arguing this to the near fullest extent is really weird.
You need to better explain the logic on how lynching Tom saved a Mislynch for the Town. Because the logic you have used is extremely flawed and doesn’t make an ounce of sense.
As I stated prior, how would last anti-town member be forced to NK Tom? You need to explain this in full. Walk me through your thought process that helped you arrive at this conclusion.
Also, how was Dan unbelievably scummy? Please detail this information for me.
Once again you have thrown baseless accusations without showing the work. “Flailing” and “Misrepresentation” needs to be shown. All you’re doing is flinging mud in my direction and hoping that Megs follows suit with you.
You should be picking it apart my posts to prove this information. I’ve already mentioned why you should be doing this, but you don’t care about anything I say. I’m “confirmed scum” to you and you keep implying that I am “confirmed scum” to Megs as well. You have done nothing to prove that I am scum.
In Basic #70 I was using the gimmick account Pheonix Sun Rise.
Void: Can you fully break down to me your Day 2 actions? This is the one thing that sticks out at me as the worst thing you've done this game. To recap:
1. You started out voting Killjoy.
2. Killjoy gets shot. Immediately before the flip you say "I think killjoy might flip town." I don't believe you unvoted him before that happened.
3. After this you voted somebody else. (Swishh maybe? I forget)
4. Only after AI is under pressure do you make the reveal, and then AI gets lynched.
There are a few specific aspects of this I'd like you to address:
1. Why did you choose to investigate AI?
2. Why did you not start the day pushing AI?
3. What made you declare that KJ was town just before he flipped so? What specifically changed in between your vote and Seppel's shot?
4. Why did you not begin breadcrumbing until after Killjoy was shot?
5. Why was AI the third person you pushed that Day?
6. Why did you choose to reveal you had investigated him rather than building a behavioral case?
A lot of questions, but your actions that day raise quite a few. I'd appreciate you taking the time to address them.
1) From this post here:
Whenever I see an experienced player talking about “your stream of consciousness” it has been in reference to how easy it is to read that player and that the player is typically Town. Looking at the full response I saw that Alpha was indicating that Teh JeY may be scum. The post felt off and it was my reason for investigating Alpha.
2) I wasn’t sure how to play my role correctly. At first I thought holding the information to myself was the best choice, but as the Day progress and the interactions that I was having Alpha focus on made me realize that a lot would come from Alpha flipping non-town at the time. A Mafiate as we know now. I hadn’t planned on taking any thunder away from Tom, but at that point I realized having two dead scum and third guaranteed scum caught that it would be best to bring the information forward.
3) It was the interactions that Swishh had brought forward regarding Voxx and his 1-Shot Vig claim. I had thought that Swishh had implemented himself and Voxx as scum together and after realizing this it was too late. I was your stream of consciousness posting there and trying to let everyone know what I was seeing. Obviously I was wrong about Swishh.
4) I had breadcrumbed prior to killjoy being shot. My post where I asked Alpha about Voxx’s claim was my first attempt at a breadcrumb. If you like I will find the post where I explained my breadcrumbs in detail and you can see where they all are at.
5) I believe we are going to have a difference of opinion here. Since I had a guilty verdict on Alpha it was just waiting for the right time to come to start my push. Once Voxx claimed his Role is when, from my view point, I started pushing Alpha because I asked Alpha to directly respond to Voxx’s claim. The reason being for that is because the result I received from TCM was “non-town” or “anti-town”. I’m in a lazy mood and don’t want to check the PM, but either line gives the same impression, that there be an anti-town Neutral out there. It could have been a Red Herring, but I’m not sure. Got off subject a little there, but I had Alpha respond to Voxx to see if Alpha might indicate himself being a possible SK, but that is not what I saw. I will pull up the quotes if you want me too.
Like I said at the start of this answer. We may have a difference in opinion on when my push on Alpha began.
6) Would you case somebody that you had a guilty verdict on? Perhaps I was being lazy then, but with a guilty verdict in hand I didn’t see the point of doing the “busy work”. I’m going to be using “busy work” a lot more often now. It’s fun to say.
Theoretically.
Life is chaos right now.
1. I think I understand you here, but just in case the wires got crossed, can you rephrase? What about AI using the "stream of consciousness" phrase made you think he was scum?
2-6: So as I understand it, you investigated AI N1. You came into D2 with a "not town" result. You saw that there were three kills. After Voxxicus claimed one you decided to needle AI because you suspected that AI might have been an SK. This didn't pan out, which left AI as mafia in your mind. While this is happening, you are voting KJ, who was a scum read from Day 1. By the time Seppel shoots KJ you have changed your mind as to KJ's alignment. After this you move to swishh, while still poking at AI. Eventually you decide to reveal your investigation and we lynch AI.
Sound accurate so far?
Couple questions:
1. Did you breadcrumb on Day 1?
2. Would you have been ok with the Day ending with KJ shot and Swishh lynched?
If you (Megs) have any direct questions for me that'd help significantly.
Here's the situation: Void is only scum if he made a bunch of bad plays to bus most of his six-man scumteam and ride it out to endgame.
I don't think that's likely. It's much more likely that you are just the SK.
However, there are enough behavioral irregularities with void that I need to clear those up. That's what I'm doing now.
You get to sit tight and watch void try to clear himself.
I will say right now that two things make me pretty sure that void is actually town. First, JeY's end-of-game posts. That could have been planned, but god damn was it good acting if it was. Second, Tyzmo's super-buddying post back on Day 1. I can't look at that as anything other than blatant scum-on-town buddying.
So I'm working with these things in my brain trying to sort void out. You I don't have anything to say about.
Sure. But that's why we're in this situation - bussing his team to help him coast to end-game was the point behind it.
By that same token, look at what would have had to transpire for me to be the SK:
I claimed the kill early on day two, which I figured guaranteed I wouldn't make it to the end of the game. Go back and re-read that - the doctor died night one, and I didn't want the vig to claim, because it was just pointless outing of town power roles to get shot. But Seppel insisted, so I figured he had something role-related in mind that would help town, so I did claim. Where's the motivation for doing so as a SK? Being known to have killing power would either get me shot by the scum team, or lynched as the SK before end-game at that point.
Once I had claimed to be a vig, I tried to create ambiguity as to whether or not I was a one-shot or multi-shot to be an appealing roleblock or NK target - as I was simply vanilla at that point. The intention was to be active and pro-town from then on to draw the NK, but the combination of RL interfering, and night actions all but solving the game (or so it seemed) meant there just wasn't much for me to do in mid-game.
On day..three? Four? Whatever day it was, I recognized that it was going to be a matter of lynching the unconfirmeds - so I supported lynching myself then, instead of letting myself reach LYLO as unconfirmed and be a mislynch to lose the game. I have no way of proving that, but I was typing that self-lynch post before Seppel posted right before me. I fully expected to be the lynch that day - how do you reconcile that with SK behavior? I did back off that once people started looking elsewhere, and I wasn't going to advocate my own lynch once we started running out of mislynches - but it was an acceptable outcome of that day, because we still had a few mislynches remaining - and I wanted to avoid what might happen here - me getting mislynched with the game on the line due to role.
Reconcile my refusal to lynch Tom, and extensive effort to case Dan with me being a SK. You, Dan and Void were all seemingly fine with the Tom lynch. It would have been extremely easy for me to just be 'Yeah, sure, he's a double voter - playing it safe seems like the best course of action, even if I'm not entirely sure he's who we're looking for'. And then lay out my case on Dan the next day. Re-read my case on Dan. Try to look at my mindset behind that post, and establish how genuine it reads to you. Try to match the effort and case with being the SK, when I could have just gone along with the Tom lynch, and then made that same case the next day.
It doesn't make sense, because I'm not the SK - I was almost certain I had scum pegged (in Dan), and thought Tom was town, therefore lynching him was dumb.
I acknowledge that the logic is similar on both cases:
I'm only the SK if I played poorly and acted against my own self-interests.
Void is only scum if he acted in a manner that was probably sub-optimal for his team to win.
But since I know he is scum, that means he did act in that way, no matter how strange it may seem. You can read my thoughts on Void in the big wall yesterday - the same points you mention are why I voted Dan over him, even with a lot of interactions reading off, the simulatneous attacking and defending, the late 'claim' on AI, the 'I have a feeling Kill-Joy is town' after it's too late, and...basically almost everything he said and did outside of his claim.
And the claim itself was fishy - a town 1-shot roleblock when the scum had a roleblocker and backup roleblocker isn't something I'd consider balanced. Especially given that the roleblockers were basically the only scum power outside of the NK.
There was convienently only one roleblock on the night that Void claimed to block Eron. We were meant to draw the obvious conclusion that Jey performed the kill, and that the scum team was wiped out - when in actuality, she roleblocked Eron, and Void performed the kill.
I'm aware of how convoluted it seems, when the large scum team probably could have rode out the win without the excessive bussing.
But I think this is pretty apt:
And the truth is that Void is scum.
And there was no reason for a SK to hold any kills back, unless they were in explicit danger of being tracked, after Rhand claimed, on top of that.
Obviously now I'm 100% certain that Void has to be mafia vs. a neutral, because of the roleblock/claim/bussing/everything. It would only work with the support of his scum team, and it almost did work - if his push on Tom had gone through, we'd have lost, because I can't see any combination of people remaining lynching Void over Dan.
Do you think that void's explanation of his thought process on Day 2 is faulty? If so, which parts?
But I can take a closer look at it. I've kind of just skimmed his stuff today once you self-confirmed, since arguing with scum isn't something I especially like doing, heh. I just get frustrated and devolve into pointing my finger at them and going YOU SCUM! DIE! Which isn't terribly productive.
I want to draw some parallels to the thought processes behind my vig selection, and his cop selection.
I dismissed AI as a possibility to shoot almost entirely because of his interaction with LoT, and his early position on the LoT wagon - but Void completely ignores those interactions, and his only reasoning for using his sole cop shot is because a post between two flipped scum felt 'off'. I haven't played with Void a ton when he has a power role, but I think he's generally a fairly competent player. Town Void would not have used his 1-shot cop on such a...whimsical feeling, I don't think. Not when he came out with the guns blazing against Kill-Joy and then Swishh.
I was just almost his identical role in Checks and Balances - I was a JOAT with a 1-shot Cop. I, too, used the Cop shot night one, but I used it to try and narrow down the gamestate, and figure things out. I picked someone that was at the back end of the scum lynch wagon on day one, figuring that it was almost a guarantee that a scum had hopped on near the end of the wagon and bussed their buddy. When I got a town result back from that, I attacked the other scum read I had at the back of that wagon, and he ended up being scum.
Town Void was in that game, Town Void saw how I used the 1-shot cop, I don't buy the 'I didn't know how to use the role', for that very reason. I also don't buy him blowing his strongest one-shot on something feeling 'off' rather than interactions with the two flipped scum we had on day one. That's just not a town mindset.
That's scum cherry picking a quote and trying to spin it in his favor, rather than actually showing the thought process behind the selection.
One thing regarding the claim. As SK, failing to claim your kill would have made it a lot worse for you down the road if you had claimed it, or forced you into a vanilla claim (or something like that) which would have put more scrutiny on you (and the rest of us vanillas) for lying.
Claiming the shot makes sense.
As for why you weren't shot, that I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't want to speculate. Also keep in mind that the scum had a roleblocker so there was no real pressing need to actually shoot you that Night even if you had multiple shots.
I know it's WiFOM'y, but almost everything is at this point. It's also the only way I can remotely defend myself - the fact that I haven't acted in my own interests at all this game. I want to help you make the right decision, but it's ultimately just going to be you trusting your gut and pulling the trigger, so to speak.
I know it's stretching it, but this reads like him claiming scum. He's admitting that he's confirmed scum to me.