I still think lynching me is dumb. Double-voting SKs generally do not exist and if one did this game would be ridiculously off-balance. Killing me just makes another lylo tomorrow and doesn't actually accomplish anything.
Doesn't keeping me alive allow us to survive an extra game day as well if we mislynch a bunch? I thought that was how it was but I'm having trouble making that work in my brain right now.
Anyway, if I am the lynch so be it. I've already given my thoughts: if it is a SK it's probably Rick or Voxx and if it's mafia it's probably g_d or Void.
Curious why Void hasn't voted me if he's so sure I must be the lynch today.
1. I don't see they why they couldn't exist. SKs usually have some additional protections, and a double vote (which brings their victory 1 Day closer to where it would have been) doesn't seem like the worst.
2. No. Why are you assuming that you aren't going to be killed Tonight? If you actually are the SK this is your biggest slip.
3. Well at least we know where you stand on the issues.
4. Because we're potentially in LyLo and we must be careful with our votes?
I know I'm not contributing enough, and I don't want today to end until I can provide said content. These past 2-3 weeks have just been nonstop for me, with me having avg. 5.5 shifts a weekend and spending 10 days outside of my area code.
I swear, tomorrow. That or lynch me Tomorrow.
Do you think you should have replaced out a while ago if this is the case?
Think about it for a second. Take Seppel's role, a partial Vig, along with Voxx who has shown that he is a partial Vig and we get a full Vig pretty much. The only way Voxx is the SK is if he sandbagged as much as he could and has two Day Shots rather than one. However, this is not the case. If Voxx was the SK he would go through the motions of toDay and save his Day Vig for tomorrow to asure his win. Voxx is Town. Plain and simple.
Tom
I haven't voted you yet because I want to make sure we get enough discussion in toDay before the lynch. However, that doesn't seem matter at this point.
@void: I've been pushing for us to out whether or not we have Seppel's shot all Day. So him using it now is a null tell for me.
Obviously if Tom flips scum/SK then we don't need to worry about it, but I have been suggesting that we all type the EXECUTE TOM command into the window and post it to prove that we do/do not have the ability. Had that come to pass, Voxx would have needed to do that anyway. Again, null.
Think about it for a second. Take Seppel's role, a partial Vig, along with Voxx who has shown that he is a partial Vig and we get a full Vig pretty much. The only way Voxx is the SK is if he sandbagged as much as he could and has two Day Shots rather than one. However, this is not the case. If Voxx was the SK he would go through the motions of toDay and save his Day Vig for tomorrow to asure his win. Voxx is Town. Plain and simple.
Could you also explain the bolded?
I also answered your question (i.e., what have I done this game) and now it is your turn to answer mine. I've had quite a few for you that you have ignored, actually. So look back.
Voxxicus goes towards the room where the dead of stayed since the beginning of this tragedy. There, he find Seppel's gun, held in his holster. Barely being able to breathe from the smell, he quickly rushes towards Tom, pulls the trigger, only to notice that the gun is just as empty as Seppel left it. Disappointed, he throws the gun away and sits back down while the rest of you just stare in astonishment.
I want to help us win. I perhaps should've replaced out. More likely just not joined Survival Horror (but I wasn't anticipating how much of a toll the traveling would have on my sleep).
Santorum
Please do not say I am ignoring questions. If I were ignoring your questions I would flat say that I am. See Iso's basic #72 Giant Robot Battle Mafia if you don't believe me. Stardust got to see what me ignoring questions is like. I'm also very stubborn when I am ignoring a question(s).
That being said, I am utterly confused to what Voxx was trying to accomplish there. Reaction?
Voxx
What reaction were you expecting to get from Tom? He's already explained how he feels about the current situation. If anything he would have been repeating himself.
How is it not the best option? If Tom lives tomorrow he can lynch anyone he chooses with his Double Vote. If he is the SK. then we are screwed.
I've had a Town read on you for a while now, Voxx. But now your play is starting to change.
You talk about the Tom being the "Safest Play", but in actuality it is the correct play toDay. It's ITT on why and yet you're focus is on trying to find something else. Your taking the situation and making it about yourself and not anyone else.
If Tom flips Town. then I believe you are indeed the SK.
Santorum
I want to make sure I have all questions that you have asked to me. Would you mind quoting them? I have your response to my case on you, so I don't need those.
I dunno. I guess hoping he'd drop a 'Bah' or something if he thought he was dead and the game was over? Or say something that made it much more likely he was town?
Ultimately I didn't see a downside to the play. It would prove that I didn't have the shot, eventually, and had the possibility of generating some kind of reaction from Tom that would possibly shed light on his alignment.
I think best vs. safest is possibly a matter of perspective. If Tom is town, we have one more mislynch available to us. If he's scum, then he has to be the lynch today. So safest play is to lynch him - I was just trying to decide if it was the /best/ play.
The odds of the 'field' being scum (you, Rick, Dan) would have be double that of Tom being scum for leaving Tom alive to be the best play in terms of percentages.
And I guess I don't think it is? Dan might be more likely in a vacuum, but we aren't playing in a vacuum due to the double vote.
Something like, um. Dan 50%, Tom 40%, Void 8%, Rick 2%?
I probably just talked myself into lynching Tom, but I want to sleep before I make any actual decisions. In the midst of a work project, and on 'lunch' break - haven't slept in almost 50 hours and am kind of light headed and prone to questionable decisions and ramblyness and yeah.
Thinking that Voxxicus simply didn't pull the trigger hard enough, g_d simply decides that this is quite enough. Thinking to leave this time of pain, and back into sweet bliss, he grabs the fallen gun, points it at himself, pulls the trigger until he hears the click and then............................................................................................................................................................................................................
Which "agenda" is this that I have? Note that starting wagons and reading reactions are of benefit to the town, since they generate content that can be analyzed.
How I am suppose to know what your agenda is? All I see is that you are focusing on yourself and showing that you are going to do what you want to do. Not so much what the Town wants you to do.
“Are of benefit to the town” How you phrased this is interesting to me. The way you say “to town” makes me believe that you are not a part of the Town. It's WIFOM etc...
Quote from Rick Santorum »
So far we have hit two townie behaviors in a row, so I don't see the pattern.
I think you are reaching pretty significantly here, honestly.
Is it impossible for a SK to show a townie behavior? Your defense here lacking.
Quote from Rick Santorum »
I will grant that this post is definitely all about me. But when Cyouni asks me a direct question about my play, I'm going to talk about myself. It's only natural. I was answering his question.
I don't see how that second paragraph, about finding another scumhunting method, is me trying to hide anything. It's essentially me reiterating that I'm not going to go fetch when there's zero point to doing so, but in a different way.
Context issue on my side. Also, I didn’t realize Cyouni questioned you directly about your play.
The way you worded your paragraph had me believing so. I’m not so sure after recent events.
Quote from Rick Santorum »
... Ok, yes, I wanted to do something. Townies do that, you know. It's called "leading the town," which I haven't really been doing much of this game, but I struggle to see how this is even remotely indicative of a third-party mindset.
I also don't think you're seeing jumpiness in there. Dan had just replaced in. I didn't want to end the Day until he had posted, which is that "I'd be voting if not for this" comment. But, as I'm typing that, Dan nath's me saying that we should just go ahead and he'll catch up at Night. I'm fine with this, and I place the vote that I was going to be placing anyway.
So... Not sure how that's jumpiness... or forgetfulness. I very clearly knew exactly what was going on.
Town, Mafia or Neutral will want to do something. It’s not just a townie trait. If it were, then everyone would be viewed as Town?
Whereas I didn’t.
Quote from Rick Santorum »
I am still in the process of rereading. I had a friend over (KoolKoal, actually) at my house for the past four days for GP Pittsburgh, and haven't really had a chance to sit down and reread. Yes, I've been delaying it... but I've been busy lately.
I didn’t see much of reasoning on why you were busy, but I fully understand being busy and forgetting to post about it. I only recently mentioned me moving (as you know) when it’s been going on for over a week now.
Quote from Rick Santorum »
This (and the subsequent posts in your post here) make no sense. Remember the timeline: At the time of all of these posts, we had seen only one kill for three Nights in a row. What does that indicate to you? Also, you're trying to catch me on changing my opinion when a very significant fact changed— At the time we were lynching IB, we didn't know how many scum there were. The possibility of an SK rather than a fifth member was there. Afterwards, where I declared Voxx confirmed town, was after IB had flipped and definitively revealed the existence of a fifth scum. At that point, still with only one kill per Night, the razor said that there were no additional anti-town killing roles. That post represented my thoughts before getting the Night action results. I was trying to do POE.
Fair enough.
Quote from Rick Santorum »
As for "six would be too much," that was specifically referring to a sixth scum member in my brain, though I can definitely see the confusion there.
There is no use in defending myself against the present accusations, because the accusations (that I am a double-voter) are indeed true. I guess I'm the lynch today but I think it's stupid. I haven't acted like an SK this game.
---
I don't like Void creating a false dichotomy in attempt to get Voxx lynched tomorrow.
---
I believe the first step in actually catching the last bad guy is looking at all the info and deciding exactly what we are looking for. Mafia or SK. If not we will continue to jumble around like we have been, going back and forth chaotically.
Currently we have reason to believe that we are looking for an SK, but I think Rick brought something up about it possibly being mafia.
---
I hope I can contribute more before you all decide to end the day with my death. G_d of course should contribute more too. And Voxx.
So I've reread, albeit in less detail than I probably should've. I'm basically unwilling to lynch Voxx or Void at this point. I think we are looking for a 6th mafioso, which makes Voxx & Void impossible to be that, and me fairly unlikely via Rhand's track. Tom still has to be the lynch toDay.
I'm ready to move to night whenever. If I need to actually case Megs, I guess I can do that, but certainly won't be easy.
Hey, I'm not expecting mine to do anything either, but it's important that we know everything at this point, I think.
Voxx, Dan, you, me. I'd ask Tom to shoot himself, but that isn't actually necessary.
Like I said, I'll get to your post (and others) in a bit. There were a couple of other questions I left for you (I think, I didn't see you answer them but I haven't read your post in depth yet) so I'll dredge those up.
After that, once TCMod confirms that neither of us have this thing, we can hammer.
Like I said, I'll get to your post (and others) in a bit. There were a couple of other questions I left for you (I think, I didn't see you answer them but I haven't read your post in depth yet) so I'll dredge those up.
I asked you post the other questions, agian, so that I don't miss any.
Yes I will do this for you, do not fear. This evening, though. I've got stuff to do this afternoon (like a three-hour lecture that I can't spend on the internet).
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
It is not necessary. If you don't like it and don't believe me to be the SK/mafioso, don't lynch me. Right now your reasoning for lynching me is nothing beyond "he could be" which is, needless to say, dumb. I think your "best play" theory is wrong, and is clouding your reason.
Lynching someone who is more likely to be the last bad guy makes more sense to me.
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
It is not necessary. If you don't like it and don't believe me to be the SK/mafioso, don't lynch me. Right now your reasoning for lynching me is nothing beyond "he could be" which is, needless to say, dumb. I think your "best play" theory is wrong, and is clouding your reason.
Lynching someone who is more likely to be the last bad guy makes more sense to me.
Voxx, Dan, you, me. I'd ask Tom to shoot himself, but that isn't actually necessary.
Execute: Tom
I don't expect anything to happen.
Here is the big issue, Tom. We don't know whether we are dealing with a SK or Mafiate at this point. Nothing ITT can conlude either way. You are just as much a possbility as anyone else. If it wasn't for your Double Vote and the lynch threshold being 2 to lynch Tomorrow I would say forget about you (not literally of course ;)) for the time being and look into other options, but unfourtnately that is not an option.
Is is the best play to lynch you toDay? Maybe, maybe not. But I cannot get past you using your Double Vote Tomorrow to gain a victory for yourself as a SK or for your team if you are a Mafiate. The risk does not out weigh gain.
I've been re-reading, because I'm having trouble shaking how opportunistic this lynch feels.
Came out of the re-read completely convinced that Rick is town. If he's scum, he deserves the win, because there's just no scum mindset anywhere, ever. The lack of self-preservation early, the 'earnest' effort late in the game, I just can't see it.
So it leaves three options. Tom, Dan, Void.
I think I can make a compelling case on Dan. I think he's more likely to be the remaining mafia than Tom is. And Void is making me paranoid with the almost insistence that we lynch Tom, with nothing backing it up behaviorally other than role and risk aversion.
But I guess I understand the risk aversion. Human nature blah blah.
Losing to lynching incorrectly is preferable to having the game snatched away by the double vote.... I guess?
But it's still kind of dumb. If we lynch Tom, and he's town, we have to lynch correctly tomorrow, or we lose.
If we lynch someone else (Dan), and Tom is scum - we lose. But if Tom is town, we generate an extra lynch.
So I'm asking you guys this - is Tom more likely to be scum than your second strongest scum read currently?
Ignore roles in a vaccuum.
Like. Rank the remaining players in order that you'd lynch them.
For example, Rick - if you'd rank it Void > Dan > Voxx > Tom not counting his role, it's mathematically superior to leave Tom alive, even if there's a /chance/ that he could be scum, is it not?
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
It is not necessary. If you don't like it and don't believe me to be the SK/mafioso, don't lynch me. Right now your reasoning for lynching me is nothing beyond "he could be" which is, needless to say, dumb. I think your "best play" theory is wrong, and is clouding your reason.
Lynching someone who is more likely to be the last bad guy makes more sense to me.
Voxx, Dan, you, me. I'd ask Tom to shoot himself, but that isn't actually necessary.
Execute: Tom
I don't expect anything to happen.
Here is the big issue, Tom. We don't know whether we are dealing with a SK or Mafiate at this point. Nothing ITT can conlude either way. You are just as much a possbility as anyone else. If it wasn't for your Double Vote and the lynch threshold being 2 to lynch Tomorrow I would say forget about you (not literally of course ;)) for the time being and look into other options, but unfourtnately that is not an option.
Is is the best play to lynch you toDay? Maybe, maybe not. But I cannot get past you using your Double Vote Tomorrow to gain a victory for yourself as a SK or for your team if you are a Mafiate. The risk does not out weigh gain.
You said yourself you don't like the idea of lynching me, implying you don't believe me to be the remaining baddie. Rightfully so; my play contains no motivation of a mafioso or SK.
Saying that as well as saying I'm the correct lynch today is pretty much a contradiction. If you think it is correct to lynch me you are implying the exact opposite; that you believe I am the remaining baddie and will win tomorrow via insta-double-vote.
So which one is it, unless you believe I'm town and want to lynch me anyway.
It might read awkwardly, but I think it's correct?
It only makes sense to lynch you if you are their #1 or #2 scum read, independent of role. If you are #3 or #4, then it makes no sense to lynch you from a percentages perspective.
And yeah, I'm leaning towards trying to turn this around to Dan, so I'll have the case up soon (probably tomorrow though, have a meeting early in morning I need to get to sleep for).
No one in particular - that's why I asked the question.
But the pervailing thought seems to be 'well, I don't really have any reason to think Tom is scum except he has a double vote so yup, gonna vote Tom'.
What I'm saying is that if they have two stronger scum reads than you, ignoring your role, then they should not want to lynch you. But if they can say that you /are/ one of their two strongest scum reads, then it's a valid option.
I'll try to clarify tomorrow if I'm somehow not making sense, but I need sleep.
Well it makes 2 non-Tom lynches rather than only one, which is a good thing.
---
After thinking about it some more, there are only two options. I'm going to die tonight if not today, so it's either:
Lynch me today and let the baddie NK tonight
or
Lynch someone else and let the baddie NK me tonight
The first is technically safer from your guys' perspective, though the second allows you to choose who the other person is that dies rather than the baddie. So there are advantages to both.
If you don't believe I'm a baddie (and you shouldn't :mad:) then you should go with the second option. If not I guess the first option though I'd like to hear some better reasoning.
I'm going with the second, obviously, but I need to decide who to put my votes on. I'm thinking g_d right now but I want to hear Voxx's case.
Think about it for a second. Take Seppel's role, a partial Vig, along with Voxx who has shown that he is a partial Vig and we get a full Vig pretty much. The only way Voxx is the SK is if he sandbagged as much as he could and has two Day Shots rather than one. However, this is not the case. If Voxx was the SK he would go through the motions of toDay and save his Day Vig for tomorrow to asure his win. Voxx is Town. Plain and simple.
Could you also explain the bolded?
I also answered your question (i.e., what have I done this game) and now it is your turn to answer mine. I've had quite a few for you that you have ignored, actually. So look back.
Okay, so either there is no SK or the both the SK and the Mafia Team targeted Seppel last Night since I protected him. My Doc ability went Super Saiyan thanks to a question I asked TCM.
Everyone scrambles for the gun dropped. Only after seeing that there are in fact no bullets left in the gun is everyone satisfied that no one will be dying from gun shots today...
Void (Regarding your response to my response to your case):
-Regarding "my own agenda": Voxxicus has repeatedly stated that he sees zero self-preservation behavior out of me this game, yet you say that I am operating on my own agenda. I feel that these two behaviors are mutually exclusive. Can you reconcile this?
-Regarding "SKs showing town behavior": I totally agree that SKs can show town behavior. I still think you are reaching significantly. I would also like you to articulate how I am focusing on myself by refusing to answer. As Voxx has covered already, it exposed me to much scrutiny at the time.
-Regarding "the way I worded my paragraph": Can you just spell out what you were believing and why you "aren't so sure" anymore? What is your current viewpoint?
-Regarding "whereas I didn't": What didn't you do? You also aren't addressing the actual issue here, which is that you are calling me jumpy. Do you still believe I was being "jumpy" at that point in the game?
-Regarding "being busy": Yeah, I did not mention being on V/LA or anything, so this is kind of moot. Do you think I have been or am currently withholding content this game?
Anyway, I really don't think you have much here. What is your current feeling on me?
Tom: I mean, how haven't you acted like an SK? Do you know how an SK should act?
I agree on the false dichotomy issue.
I also agree on the mafia vs. SK issue, though your thoughts on which it is would be useful.
Dan: After every sentence of your first paragraph, pretend I inserted a "why?" there. Then answer the "why"s, if you would.
Regarding the second paragraph, you absolutely would need to case me if you want to try to lynch me—since I'm town.
Tom: There (at this juncture) no definitive cases on anybody. There are weak cases on everybody, though, and thus you are no more or less clear than anybody else.
Voxxicus: Good post. I would like to see your Dan case, though.
As I already stated we do not gain any extra time by letting Tom live. Does this affect your statements?
I will say that Tom is not my strongest read. He's probably third after... Void and Dan, actually. You got my rankings right.
I don't know that your logic holds, if only looking at it from a EV perspective. I see the chance that we lose on the spot Tomorrow as a big enough potential loss that I am willing to (potentially) burn a lynch Today for the extra info of the NK and another lynch.
Of course, this is me sitting here having not actually completed a reread. I also think that one of Dan and Void are probably better candidates for last baddie than Tom is.
Tom: I mean, how haven't you acted like an SK? Do you know how an SK should act?
I agree on the false dichotomy issue.
I assume SKs act like scum because they are also trying to hide something and blend in with the crowd. The only difference I see is that the scum have to pay attention to how they interact with their buddies while SKs obviously don't.
I also agree on the mafia vs. SK issue, though your thoughts on which it is would be useful.
I've already given my thought about which it is. Like twice. What are your thoughts? I didn't fully understand or remember the stuff about Eron and why there may be a mafioso rather than an SK.
Dan: After every sentence of your first paragraph, pretend I inserted a "why?" there. Then answer the "why"s, if you would.
Regarding the second paragraph, you absolutely would need to case me if you want to try to lynch me—since I'm town.
Why is that last "since I'm town" tacked on at the end? This kind of stuff is what I meant about trying too hard.
I also think that one of Dan and Void are probably better candidates for last baddie than Tom is.
And guess who's on my wagon
I agree with you about Void and Dan, those are my top two as well (haven't finished re-read yet though). You and Voxx have felt more town to me as of late (good helpful content) while they have not.
So I've reread, albeit in less detail than I probably should've. - Because I'm still not having enough time to take a lot of notes on any game.
I'm basically unwilling to lynch Voxx or Void at this point. - A combination of roles (Voxx's town game on display, and I don't think a toughguy should exist after they have flipped a one-shot untrackable killer as scum // Void's also been fairly town, and he shouldn't have just fed AI to the wolves for any reason) and behavior.
I think we are looking for a 6th mafioso, which makes Voxx & Void impossible to be that, and me fairly unlikely via Rhand's track. - The circumstances needed for us to be looking for an SK are ridiculously unlikely. I think someone's lying about their claim, and the fact that I was tracked doing nothing means that it's highly unlikely that I'm a mafia PR (as another goon doesn't make sense, from a setup perspective).
Tom still has to be the lynch toDay. - You can go back to the mafia theory thread to see that I think mafia doublevoters are firmly within the realm of possiblity, and although it wasn't worth considering earlier in the game when there were so many other leads to follow, it's not worth the risk of losing the game on the spot here.
I'm ready to move to night whenever. - This may have been premature.
If I need to actually case Megs, I guess I can do that, but certainly won't be easy. - I think Megs has been a pretty productive member of the town this game.
he shouldn't have just fed AI to the wolves for any reason
Why not? Makes him look town and AI was already getting attacked (by me! according to your above reasoning you shouldn't want to lynch me either then).
The circumstances needed for us to be looking for an SK are ridiculously unlikely.
Please elaborate as to why?
I think someone's lying about their claim
Really?
---
Void: why did you wait to tell us about your cop result on AI? If you've already answered that a link to the post will suffice.
---
Sharing some mental notes for organization's sake:
Voxx:
pros
Playing townish
cons
Admitted to a kill already so could be bad guy
Rick:
pros
Playing townish for the most part
cons
Feels like he's unnaturally forcing it
g_d:
pros
Was tracked without a result
cons
Not doing much
Had interactions with the mafia that I don't like at all
Void:
pros
Roleblocked someone. The mafia already had 1 roleblocker and a backup.
Supposedly copped and doc'd people
cons
Had interactions with the mafia that I don't like at all
Has felt "off" this game
Tom:
pros
Looks town, sounds town, feels town, smells like town, tastes like town, IS town
I have a couple hours free before my brain and body shut down and I crash, going to try and put out some quotes/thoughts on Dan. Unless I pass out in mid-effort, in which case... oops. Work sucks.
Right, so I almost forgot that Dan was originally Cythare. Not sure if that changes anything or not - I had a slight town read on Cythare because of the 3-man-scum-team 'slip' thing he did on day one, hm.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2. No. Why are you assuming that you aren't going to be killed Tonight? If you actually are the SK this is your biggest slip.
3. Well at least we know where you stand on the issues.
4. Because we're potentially in LyLo and we must be careful with our votes?
Do you think you should have replaced out a while ago if this is the case?
Why is that again?
Think about it for a second. Take Seppel's role, a partial Vig, along with Voxx who has shown that he is a partial Vig and we get a full Vig pretty much. The only way Voxx is the SK is if he sandbagged as much as he could and has two Day Shots rather than one. However, this is not the case. If Voxx was the SK he would go through the motions of toDay and save his Day Vig for tomorrow to asure his win. Voxx is Town. Plain and simple.
Tom
I haven't voted you yet because I want to make sure we get enough discussion in toDay before the lynch. However, that doesn't seem matter at this point.
In case anybody subscribes to that point.
@void: I've been pushing for us to out whether or not we have Seppel's shot all Day. So him using it now is a null tell for me.
Obviously if Tom flips scum/SK then we don't need to worry about it, but I have been suggesting that we all type the EXECUTE TOM command into the window and post it to prove that we do/do not have the ability. Had that come to pass, Voxx would have needed to do that anyway. Again, null.
I also answered your question (i.e., what have I done this game) and now it is your turn to answer mine. I've had quite a few for you that you have ignored, actually. So look back.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I want to help us win. I perhaps should've replaced out. More likely just not joined Survival Horror (but I wasn't anticipating how much of a toll the traveling would have on my sleep).
I was hoping to get a reaction out of Tom before TCM swooped in to confirm that I didn't have a daykill.
I'd say that the lack of reaction might mean something, but I don't think there was enough time passed for that to be a meaningful argument.
Lynching Tom today is by far the safest play, but I need to decide if it's actually the best one.
Please do not say I am ignoring questions. If I were ignoring your questions I would flat say that I am. See Iso's basic #72 Giant Robot Battle Mafia if you don't believe me. Stardust got to see what me ignoring questions is like. I'm also very stubborn when I am ignoring a question(s).
That being said, I am utterly confused to what Voxx was trying to accomplish there.Reaction?Voxx
What reaction were you expecting to get from Tom? He's already explained how he feels about the current situation. If anything he would have been repeating himself.
How is it not the best option? If Tom lives tomorrow he can lynch anyone he chooses with his Double Vote. If he is the SK. then we are screwed.
I've had a Town read on you for a while now, Voxx. But now your play is starting to change.
You talk about the Tom being the "Safest Play", but in actuality it is the correct play toDay. It's ITT on why and yet you're focus is on trying to find something else. Your taking the situation and making it about yourself and not anyone else.
If Tom flips Town. then I believe you are indeed the SK.
Dan
I will have your answers for you and posted by the time I leave from work. (5pm PST)
I want to make sure I have all questions that you have asked to me. Would you mind quoting them? I have your response to my case on you, so I don't need those.
Ultimately I didn't see a downside to the play. It would prove that I didn't have the shot, eventually, and had the possibility of generating some kind of reaction from Tom that would possibly shed light on his alignment.
I think best vs. safest is possibly a matter of perspective. If Tom is town, we have one more mislynch available to us. If he's scum, then he has to be the lynch today. So safest play is to lynch him - I was just trying to decide if it was the /best/ play.
The odds of the 'field' being scum (you, Rick, Dan) would have be double that of Tom being scum for leaving Tom alive to be the best play in terms of percentages.
And I guess I don't think it is? Dan might be more likely in a vacuum, but we aren't playing in a vacuum due to the double vote.
Something like, um. Dan 50%, Tom 40%, Void 8%, Rick 2%?
I probably just talked myself into lynching Tom, but I want to sleep before I make any actual decisions. In the midst of a work project, and on 'lunch' break - haven't slept in almost 50 hours and am kind of light headed and prone to questionable decisions and ramblyness and yeah.
Thinking that Voxxicus simply didn't pull the trigger hard enough, g_d simply decides that this is quite enough. Thinking to leave this time of pain, and back into sweet bliss, he grabs the fallen gun, points it at himself, pulls the trigger until he hears the click and then............................................................................................................................................................................................................
....Nothing happens
The GJ way path to no lynching:
How I am suppose to know what your agenda is? All I see is that you are focusing on yourself and showing that you are going to do what you want to do. Not so much what the Town wants you to do.
“Are of benefit to the town” How you phrased this is interesting to me. The way you say “to town” makes me believe that you are not a part of the Town. It's WIFOM etc...
Is it impossible for a SK to show a townie behavior? Your defense here lacking.
Context issue on my side. Also, I didn’t realize Cyouni questioned you directly about your play.
The way you worded your paragraph had me believing so. I’m not so sure after recent events.
Town, Mafia or Neutral will want to do something. It’s not just a townie trait. If it were, then everyone would be viewed as Town?
Whereas I didn’t.
I didn’t see much of reasoning on why you were busy, but I fully understand being busy and forgetting to post about it. I only recently mentioned me moving (as you know) when it’s been going on for over a week now.
Fair enough.
There is no use in defending myself against the present accusations, because the accusations (that I am a double-voter) are indeed true. I guess I'm the lynch today but I think it's stupid. I haven't acted like an SK this game.
---
I don't like Void creating a false dichotomy in attempt to get Voxx lynched tomorrow.
---
I believe the first step in actually catching the last bad guy is looking at all the info and deciding exactly what we are looking for. Mafia or SK. If not we will continue to jumble around like we have been, going back and forth chaotically.
Currently we have reason to believe that we are looking for an SK, but I think Rick brought something up about it possibly being mafia.
---
I hope I can contribute more before you all decide to end the day with my death. G_d of course should contribute more too. And Voxx.
I'm ready to move to night whenever. If I need to actually case Megs, I guess I can do that, but certainly won't be easy.
FWIW, Tom, I don't like the idea lynching you anymore than you like it. It's simply a nessicary at this point.
Tom (1): Void
Not Voting (4): Everyone else.
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
execute Tom
content post this evening.
What did I miss?
It should be pretty obvious by this point that I don't have it.
Would you mind showing that the "execute tom" command doesn't do anything?
If this does anything I will be utterly shocked.
Voxx, Dan, you, me. I'd ask Tom to shoot himself, but that isn't actually necessary.
Like I said, I'll get to your post (and others) in a bit. There were a couple of other questions I left for you (I think, I didn't see you answer them but I haven't read your post in depth yet) so I'll dredge those up.
After that, once TCMod confirms that neither of us have this thing, we can hammer.
I asked you post the other questions, agian, so that I don't miss any.
I will most likely respond to you tomorrow then. Once I leave work I will be offline for the remainder of the day.
It is not necessary. If you don't like it and don't believe me to be the SK/mafioso, don't lynch me. Right now your reasoning for lynching me is nothing beyond "he could be" which is, needless to say, dumb. I think your "best play" theory is wrong, and is clouding your reason.
Lynching someone who is more likely to be the last bad guy makes more sense to me.
Execute: Tom
I don't expect anything to happen.
Here is the big issue, Tom. We don't know whether we are dealing with a SK or Mafiate at this point. Nothing ITT can conlude either way. You are just as much a possbility as anyone else. If it wasn't for your Double Vote and the lynch threshold being 2 to lynch Tomorrow I would say forget about you (not literally of course ;)) for the time being and look into other options, but unfourtnately that is not an option.
Is is the best play to lynch you toDay? Maybe, maybe not. But I cannot get past you using your Double Vote Tomorrow to gain a victory for yourself as a SK or for your team if you are a Mafiate. The risk does not out weigh gain.
Came out of the re-read completely convinced that Rick is town. If he's scum, he deserves the win, because there's just no scum mindset anywhere, ever. The lack of self-preservation early, the 'earnest' effort late in the game, I just can't see it.
So it leaves three options. Tom, Dan, Void.
I think I can make a compelling case on Dan. I think he's more likely to be the remaining mafia than Tom is. And Void is making me paranoid with the almost insistence that we lynch Tom, with nothing backing it up behaviorally other than role and risk aversion.
But I guess I understand the risk aversion. Human nature blah blah.
Losing to lynching incorrectly is preferable to having the game snatched away by the double vote.... I guess?
But it's still kind of dumb. If we lynch Tom, and he's town, we have to lynch correctly tomorrow, or we lose.
If we lynch someone else (Dan), and Tom is scum - we lose. But if Tom is town, we generate an extra lynch.
So I'm asking you guys this - is Tom more likely to be scum than your second strongest scum read currently?
Ignore roles in a vaccuum.
Like. Rank the remaining players in order that you'd lynch them.
For example, Rick - if you'd rank it Void > Dan > Voxx > Tom not counting his role, it's mathematically superior to leave Tom alive, even if there's a /chance/ that he could be scum, is it not?
You said yourself you don't like the idea of lynching me, implying you don't believe me to be the remaining baddie. Rightfully so; my play contains no motivation of a mafioso or SK.
Saying that as well as saying I'm the correct lynch today is pretty much a contradiction. If you think it is correct to lynch me you are implying the exact opposite; that you believe I am the remaining baddie and will win tomorrow via insta-double-vote.
So which one is it, unless you believe I'm town and want to lynch me anyway.
This question is terribly worded
I'd like to see the case on g_d you say you can make
It only makes sense to lynch you if you are their #1 or #2 scum read, independent of role. If you are #3 or #4, then it makes no sense to lynch you from a percentages perspective.
And yeah, I'm leaning towards trying to turn this around to Dan, so I'll have the case up soon (probably tomorrow though, have a meeting early in morning I need to get to sleep for).
Who are you implying is the first strongest scum read?
But the pervailing thought seems to be 'well, I don't really have any reason to think Tom is scum except he has a double vote so yup, gonna vote Tom'.
What I'm saying is that if they have two stronger scum reads than you, ignoring your role, then they should not want to lynch you. But if they can say that you /are/ one of their two strongest scum reads, then it's a valid option.
I'll try to clarify tomorrow if I'm somehow not making sense, but I need sleep.
D6: 5 alive
D7: 3 alive
Not sure how leaving Tom alive generates any more lynches.
---
After thinking about it some more, there are only two options. I'm going to die tonight if not today, so it's either:
Lynch me today and let the baddie NK tonight
or
Lynch someone else and let the baddie NK me tonight
The first is technically safer from your guys' perspective, though the second allows you to choose who the other person is that dies rather than the baddie. So there are advantages to both.
If you don't believe I'm a baddie (and you shouldn't :mad:) then you should go with the second option. If not I guess the first option though I'd like to hear some better reasoning.
I'm going with the second, obviously, but I need to decide who to put my votes on. I'm thinking g_d right now but I want to hear Voxx's case.
void I found four unanswered questions. If you already addressed one of these and i missed it, just link me to where you did.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
-Regarding "my own agenda": Voxxicus has repeatedly stated that he sees zero self-preservation behavior out of me this game, yet you say that I am operating on my own agenda. I feel that these two behaviors are mutually exclusive. Can you reconcile this?
-Regarding "SKs showing town behavior": I totally agree that SKs can show town behavior. I still think you are reaching significantly. I would also like you to articulate how I am focusing on myself by refusing to answer. As Voxx has covered already, it exposed me to much scrutiny at the time.
-Regarding "the way I worded my paragraph": Can you just spell out what you were believing and why you "aren't so sure" anymore? What is your current viewpoint?
-Regarding "whereas I didn't": What didn't you do? You also aren't addressing the actual issue here, which is that you are calling me jumpy. Do you still believe I was being "jumpy" at that point in the game?
-Regarding "being busy": Yeah, I did not mention being on V/LA or anything, so this is kind of moot. Do you think I have been or am currently withholding content this game?
Anyway, I really don't think you have much here. What is your current feeling on me?
Tom: I mean, how haven't you acted like an SK? Do you know how an SK should act?
I agree on the false dichotomy issue.
I also agree on the mafia vs. SK issue, though your thoughts on which it is would be useful.
Dan: After every sentence of your first paragraph, pretend I inserted a "why?" there. Then answer the "why"s, if you would.
Regarding the second paragraph, you absolutely would need to case me if you want to try to lynch me—since I'm town.
Tom: There (at this juncture) no definitive cases on anybody. There are weak cases on everybody, though, and thus you are no more or less clear than anybody else.
Voxxicus: Good post. I would like to see your Dan case, though.
As I already stated we do not gain any extra time by letting Tom live. Does this affect your statements?
I will say that Tom is not my strongest read. He's probably third after... Void and Dan, actually. You got my rankings right.
I don't know that your logic holds, if only looking at it from a EV perspective. I see the chance that we lose on the spot Tomorrow as a big enough potential loss that I am willing to (potentially) burn a lynch Today for the extra info of the NK and another lynch.
Of course, this is me sitting here having not actually completed a reread. I also think that one of Dan and Void are probably better candidates for last baddie than Tom is.
@TCMod: lolol sorry for making you do all of that
I assume SKs act like scum because they are also trying to hide something and blend in with the crowd. The only difference I see is that the scum have to pay attention to how they interact with their buddies while SKs obviously don't.
I've already given my thought about which it is. Like twice. What are your thoughts? I didn't fully understand or remember the stuff about Eron and why there may be a mafioso rather than an SK.
Why is that last "since I'm town" tacked on at the end? This kind of stuff is what I meant about trying too hard.
And guess who's on my wagon
I agree with you about Void and Dan, those are my top two as well (haven't finished re-read yet though). You and Voxx have felt more town to me as of late (good helpful content) while they have not.
I'm basically unwilling to lynch Voxx or Void at this point. - A combination of roles (Voxx's town game on display, and I don't think a toughguy should exist after they have flipped a one-shot untrackable killer as scum // Void's also been fairly town, and he shouldn't have just fed AI to the wolves for any reason) and behavior.
I think we are looking for a 6th mafioso, which makes Voxx & Void impossible to be that, and me fairly unlikely via Rhand's track. - The circumstances needed for us to be looking for an SK are ridiculously unlikely. I think someone's lying about their claim, and the fact that I was tracked doing nothing means that it's highly unlikely that I'm a mafia PR (as another goon doesn't make sense, from a setup perspective).
Tom still has to be the lynch toDay. - You can go back to the mafia theory thread to see that I think mafia doublevoters are firmly within the realm of possiblity, and although it wasn't worth considering earlier in the game when there were so many other leads to follow, it's not worth the risk of losing the game on the spot here.
I'm ready to move to night whenever. - This may have been premature.
If I need to actually case Megs, I guess I can do that, but certainly won't be easy. - I think Megs has been a pretty productive member of the town this game.
Why not? Makes him look town and AI was already getting attacked (by me! according to your above reasoning you shouldn't want to lynch me either then).
Please elaborate as to why?
Really?
---
Void: why did you wait to tell us about your cop result on AI? If you've already answered that a link to the post will suffice.
---
Sharing some mental notes for organization's sake:
Voxx:
pros
Playing townish
cons
Admitted to a kill already so could be bad guy
Rick:
pros
Playing townish for the most part
cons
Feels like he's unnaturally forcing it
g_d:
pros
Was tracked without a result
cons
Not doing much
Had interactions with the mafia that I don't like at all
Void:
pros
Roleblocked someone. The mafia already had 1 roleblocker and a backup.
Supposedly copped and doc'd people
cons
Had interactions with the mafia that I don't like at all
Has felt "off" this game
Tom:
pros
Looks town, sounds town, feels town, smells like town, tastes like town, IS town
cons
nothin from my perspective