GG, everyone. Thanks for the game, Eco & Toasty, and my condolences that the dual-thread didn't play out the way you had hoped.
Now, Cyan...what the hell were you doing all game? I apologize for blowing up on you, but come on.
Also, if somebody could point out exactly what it was that I did that made everybody think I was scum, that would be fantastic, thank you. I thought I played very pro-town all game.
Town MVPs to KCC and Seppel.
I just had an off-game. I dunno. Lately I'm trying to shake my 'rabid dog' image and to generally give people the benefit of the doubt more. What a terrible idea.
I don't think that the scum ever had a chance in this game. The town had 4 info roles, while the scum had, as Seppel already said, one extra kill and a roleblocker. And there wasn't even an SK to help whittle down the town's numbers.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm really sorry I was rude a destructive this game. When KCC kept calling me stupid (subtly obviously) and trying to discredit me in one of the few things in good at in Mafia, I lost my temper. I'm glad the town ended up playing it out decenty, but I still maintain that KCC had wrong plans. (Although it didn't matter, because everyone always planned to lunch Zindabad. He could never have won.)
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Btw, I think the main issue with the set-up was lack of reason to be in cyberspace. We basically just needed to send a couple of power roles there and ignore it otherwise.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I'm really sorry I was rude a destructive this game. When KCC kept calling me stupid (subtly obviously) and trying to discredit me in one of the few things in good at in Mafia, I lost my temper. I'm glad the town ended up playing it out decenty, but I still maintain that KCC had wrong plans. (Although it didn't matter, because everyone always planned to lunch Zindabad. He could never have won.)
No worries; but yelling at people not to Cop you is pretty sketchy, for future reference.
Btw, I think the main issue with the set-up was lack of reason to be in cyberspace. We basically just needed to send a couple of power roles there and ignore it otherwise.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm really sorry I was rude a destructive this game. When KCC kept calling me stupid (subtly obviously) and trying to discredit me in one of the few things in good at in Mafia, I lost my temper. I'm glad the town ended up playing it out decenty, but I still maintain that KCC had wrong plans. (Although it didn't matter, because everyone always planned to lunch Zindabad. He could never have won.)
Asking not to be investigated is only ever going to raise suspicions, no matter how noble your intentions. If you get some obscure role that is like 'anyone that targets you dies', then you just claim that outright. But otherwise, trying to avoid being investigated just makes you look like scum.
Also, coming into a game thread lamenting the fact that you can't lie about your role also looks bad. I was really worried that dealing with you was going to be a chore after you made that post, but you were just fine in the end.
I was just trying to have a good time and goofing off when I first entered - it wasn't really a serious comment. Not wanting to be copped is because all of the town's best plans involved protecting the copped players. I had only half-read the game and I did not want to be one of the people in LyLo under any circumstances. My goal was to help figure out the optimal use of town abilities, then get lynched and get out of the way.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I just wish the mafia team hadn't gotten screwed so early. That stupid combo the town had going made it really hard to do anything, and our answer to the mass claim had died too early.
The dual thread thing had issues, but not nearly as bad as some of the complaining players make it out to be. It's obviously experimental and I'd gladly play in the next revision of the mechanic.
I apologize for griping, but it was a very frustrating situation to be placed in.
I'm also unsure why Cyberspace wasn't used as either A) Day 1 redux or B) a constantly updated source of what was going on in Realspace, but I wasn't really in much of a position to change B until it was too late, and A wasn't happening with the parties involved (considering any action I did to change that was just met with overwhelming skepticism).
Also expected to be far, far out of my depth (and the initial parts of my reread proved such), but there were such overwhelming levels of apathy once I got up to speed, it became irrelevant. Other than the jacking speed, I think this could've been a very enjoyable, interesting game had the mafia not gotten smashed to bits.
I think one of the largest problems with this was the inability to analyze wagons. I mean, if half the players are missing, how do you even read them if you can't probe them, yourself, or see what they would be doing otherwise? (That applies to both realms, even though we could see CS they weren't actually doing anything but sitting there.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Skimmed the RS thread now. Man, KCC was great this game, really spot on. Seppel was pretty good too until he died.
Haven't read the scum chat, but it seemed mostly like they blew themselves up this game as opposed to simply being out-powered. Like, yeah, at the end they were totally overmatched, but that tends to happen when too many scum die too fast. Including all the scum in Cyberspace, which let the power roles there just run completely free.
I'm not sure how to fix the mechanic. The concept is very cool, but it does seem like Cyberspace in this kind of game is almost inevitably going to be less active. Quicker switching back and forth (even in the same game day) would seem to help, though it might moot the purpose.
Still, I give major props to the mods for the effort.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
The biggest problem was the delay between jacking and arriving. A lot of problems could have been solved by making it an instant move.
I agree that this hindered the movement too much. Another thing I think may have helped is if more players had abilities that worked in either realm, though differently depending on where. That would lead to more strategic movement. The way it was set-up, it seems like most players had one spot where they needed to be for their ability, and no real reason to leave once there.
When KCC kept calling me stupid (subtly obviously) and trying to discredit me in one of the few things in good at in Mafia
I was only trying to explain to you the things you were missing, and I definitely became frustrated at some point when it started to feel like you weren't even reading my posts, especially after I had just lost a game because a townie decided to go behind my back instead of working with me. -But, I wasn't ever trying to call you stupid, and if it came across that way I apologize.
If you still want to discuss the theory issues that were at hand, I'd be happy to meet you over in the Mafia Theory and Discussion thread.
Indeed, KCC's performance was possibly the best town performance I've ever seen in a large game. Ironically, she was so good throughout the game that I thought she was actually TOO good.
The scum team shot themselves in the foot pretty badly from the outset(the only real 2 suspicious people on Day 1 were BOTH scum and Kraj very clearly tied himself to RR), but I'm not convinced that they were going to win under any circumstances. The town had everything going for it, and the scum had practically no power.
I'm not convinced that they were going to win under any circumstances. The town had everything going for it, and the scum had practically no power.
IDK, I think this game could have easily ended something like "mislynch Axel for CC, mislynch Iso for dichotomy, mislynch CPE for too many info roles, scum wins."
Also, was there really no way for me to gain a vig-shot?
Nobody in their right mind should have ever lynched CPE. Ced's behavior was clearly town, and CPE's role would make zero sense whatsoever as scum.
And if Axel got lynched, the correct follow up would be to investigate Iso, which would prevent that mislynch also.
Of course, Asenion should never have been lynched either. Certainly not before Zindabad, and arguably WG. I know that the town won, but the way that the game worked out was just..distasteful to me. We weren't really playing mafia at the end, we were just blowing through roles in order of confirmation.
I'm surprised that Zindabad even bothered once Axel was investigated as town(or arguably as soon as Azrael got lynched). There is just no way that he can win at that point.
Haven't read the scum chat, but it seemed mostly like they blew themselves up this game as opposed to simply being out-powered. Like, yeah, at the end they were totally overmatched, but that tends to happen when too many scum die too fast. Including all the scum in Cyberspace, which let the power roles there just run completely free.
I would recommend the scumchat. Azrael posted some very insightful (and large) posts in it.
Quote from Axelrod »
I'm not sure how to fix the mechanic. The concept is very cool, but it does seem like Cyberspace in this kind of game is almost inevitably going to be less active. Quicker switching back and forth (even in the same game day) would seem to help, though it might moot the purpose.
Still, I give major props to the mods for the effort.
That's mostly why I instituted the delay, to stop changing realms being so trivial that it didn't matter. Perhaps making it slower each time you change would allow some fluidity but not so much that it's too easy.
Thanks for the props though.
Quote from KCC »
I agree that this hindered the movement too much. Another thing I think may have helped is if more players had abilities that worked in either realm, though differently depending on where. That would lead to more strategic movement. The way it was set-up, it seems like most players had one spot where they needed to be for their ability, and no real reason to leave once there.
I was worried that if people could choose realms, they'd probably just stay in Realspace. I also wanted being banned to be a big drawback rather than just a downgrade. Nearly doubling the number of abilities would have greatly increased complexity and balancing (which was hard enough) - as you can see, we basically wanted a Normal complexity ish game with a fundamentally new mechanic. Too much more complexity would have made the game an Azrael game almost impenetrably complex.
Still, there could have been some incentive for almost everyone to go to Cyberspace. I just wanted some people to not want to go to prevent the whole game moving thread N0, although there could have been one or two more.
We correctly guessed that almost everyone with a CS ability would jack in N0 (only Seppel didn't), and CS would have been much more interesting and numerous if there had been scum to hunt and 2 replacements hadn't been basically forced to drop out into Realspace.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You guys can see what I was saying about Az/Axel not making proper use of the chat (although, I guess that makes sense now, considering Az would be trying to throttle information getting to CS).
So, really? The only thing that people found scummy about me was my initial exchange with Az?
You are really stuck on this. I don't know what behavior that you think you exhibited that was clearly pro-town throughout the game. You went along with every wagon that came up, and didn't resist any of them ever. The only person that you put any effort into trying to get lynched was town(GD).
Not to say that my game was any better. It wasn't. But I am aware of this.
I caught RR (and Zionite, but that was because I re-examined him after KCC pointed him out) super early, I thought that would have been in my favor. I resisted the RafK wagon pretty strongly near the end but I wasn't willing to let the Day end in a NL and just have him be the lynch the next Day when enough people were obviously convinced he was scum. I did push Cyouni until he Daykilled Kraj, and I got Asenion lynched, but he kind of brought that on to himself.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There's a big difference between saying you want to lynch someone, and DYH(? maybe desCoures) questioning RobRoy's motives in extreme detail.
Yep, thanks.
You mentioned a read on him early, sure, but I did the legwork for that case, which is why I was in the scum hit-list N1 of their chat along with Cythare (soft counter) and desCoures (analysis).
To be fair, though, I had a pretty town read on you throughout - I seem to recall deconstructing some of your earlier posts and coming out with a clean read, and you weren't in my "quintet of doom" on Day 2.
A lot of what I had to say is in the spectator thread. Other thoughts...
- I agree that making the cyberspace/realspace move instant would have gone a long way towards making the game more dynamic.
- Rolewise, I would have given zindabad some minor-ish role instead of outright vanilla mafia. (Even the 'sole vanilla' role would have been an improvement.) Similarly, I might have switched cpe's role to something else entirely. But honestly, with the tools at the mafia's collective disposal, I don't actually think the game was unbalanced at all - if they had actually kept access to their cyberspace ban, the town would probably have found themselves largely vanilla in short order. At the end of it, it was pure day bad play that led to this mess for the mafia. I still find Kraj and Zionite's attempts to protect RobRoy inexplicable. And while the mafia team banning zindabad did help to false confirm him for a while, that choice - together with Kraj and Zionite's day 1 play making them obvious targets for town kill/ban abilities, meant that town had pretty much free run of cyberspace abilities. =
- ...but, that being said, it's clear that one mod decision - nay, error - most definitely adversely affected the mafia. The day 1 switch to cyberspace players being lynchable by realspace was definitely required, but was really something that should have been caught in design, not fixed on day 1 when the mafia had no daytalk. As a result, just as I'd expected, 4 out of 5 scum were headed to cyberspace night 1, and without daytalk I'm guessing none of them dared to change their decision.
- I'm still personally a bit peeved that no one bothered to look at zindabad at all for multiple days, even after I left a hanging exhortation to pressure him on day 2 even if I wasn't around. His 'summaries' on day 1, complete with the careful lack of any mention on RobRoy and his obviously insincere attempts to discredit me were blazing red flags. And the biggest red flag of all, of course, was his mention of Inheritance Mafia - which he has gone on record as saying he wishes he forgot had ever happened. A town zindabad would never drag out such a loaded reference without an obvious ulterior motive.
- Flavour-wise - the role PMs were written well, and gave a sense of a window into this world. The lynch/morning scenes, however... not so much. None of them really gave me much of a sense of anything happening other than 'this guy died'. And at the end of it, I don't think I actually got any kind of feel for what this Slater person is doing, or why any of the 'Bystanders' here are helping him hunt down the government agents in the first place.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
It was very unfortunate that we had to add the "players in CS can be lynched" rule. this was originally in the setup, but Xyre wanted it removed because it would suck to get lynched and not know about it or be able to defend oneself. Then once the game started I realised that we could get into a really awkward position where the scum could achieve an unassailable majority in Cyberspace, and could sit there and taunt the town while the town couldn't touch them, which would force the game into a really silly draw. I was hoping that at least providing the option of not jacking in would not screw the Mafia over, even if no-one changed their mind. In the end, I don't think the Mafia were hamstrung by it since none of them even contacted me about it apart from Kraj, who waited until it was way too late.
Having said that, I was very surprised to see the town try so often to lynch players in Cyberspace: it was supposed to be a last-ditch way to lynch an obvious Mafioso hiding in cyberspace if a ban couldn't be achieved.
On zindabad being vanilla: vanilla mafia was actually quite an interesting role: he had the freedom to be in either realm that no other scum had. He could have had a token ability, but as it stood he was equally viable in both realms.
It was very unfortunate that we had to add the "players in CS can be lynched" rule. this was originally in the setup, but Xyre wanted it removed because it would suck to get lynched and not know about it or be able to defend oneself. Then once the game started I realised that we could get into a really awkward position where the scum could achieve an unassailable majority in Cyberspace, and could sit there and taunt the town while the town couldn't touch them, which would force the game into a really silly draw. I was hoping that at least providing the option of not jacking in would not screw the Mafia over, even if no-one changed their mind. In the end, I don't think the Mafia were hamstrung by it since none of them even contacted me about it apart from Kraj, who waited until it was way too late.
Having said that, I was very surprised to see the town try so often to lynch players in Cyberspace: it was supposed to be a last-ditch way to lynch an obvious Mafioso hiding in cyberspace if a ban couldn't be achieved.
On zindabad being vanilla: vanilla mafia was actually quite an interesting role: he had the freedom to be in either realm that no other scum had. He could have had a token ability, but as it stood he was equally viable in both realms.
Or rather, equally non-viable. The fact is that nearly all of the mafia had fairly scummy roleclaims - roleblocker, rolecop, point of contact, one-shot cyberspace kill, the only vanilla claim in the game. Giving zindabad some kind of more claimable ability might have helped. If you really wanted him vanilla, you could have given him the 'only vanilla' ability, where he is vanilla with the information that no one else is vanilla; I can guarantee you some players would have considered him cleared based on 'no one with that role could possibly be scum'.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Nobody in their right mind should have ever lynched CPE. Ced's behavior was clearly town, and CPE's role would make zero sense whatsoever as scum.
Well, I don't think anyone in their right mind should have been considering lynching Axel in the situation we were in, so
But really, if Axel, Iso, and WG had all turned up dead with info roles, you wouldn't have been suspicious that CPE was false-claiming that 4th info role, especially since it was a completely unconfirmable one?
I know that the town won, but the way that the game worked out was just..distasteful to me. We weren't really playing mafia at the end, we were just blowing through roles in order of confirmation./QUOTE]
I think it's best to be flexible. Behavior analysis should always be the first tool, but once you build a 9-1 advantage with tons of info roles, I think not using those other tools is just bad play.
[QUOTE=KittyCupCake;/comments/10867969]Also, was there really no way for me to gain a vig-shot?
Afraid not
That's kinda mean. -I had high hopes for being able to go offensive at some point. I mean, I was a little disappointed during the game when I thought the upgrader was dead, but to find out it was always this unreachable lie is just disheartening.
Also, if somebody could point out exactly what it was that I did that made everybody think I was scum, that would be fantastic, thank you.
Iso, pretty much every single thing you say or do is scummy. -Seriously, I'll be reading a post and saying to myself, "That's a tell. And another. Oh, this one is even worse... wait a minute. *scrolls up* Oh, it's an Iso post, NVM."
EBWODP: After reading the scumchat, I'm not sure whether I should be a little disappointed that Az had actually immediately seen through my doc gambit, or even more pleased by the fact that it ended up working anyway.
I've noticed that my scum game is starting to become distinguishable from my town game. I guess that means I need to start playing scum as town because when I'm town, I don't care how I'm perceived, but when I'm scum, I'm almost unanimously regarded as town. Obviously that's a problem because I'm not willing to trade accuracy for survival, but I'll work on it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
- Flavour-wise - the role PMs were written well, and gave a sense of a window into this world. The lynch/morning scenes, however... not so much. None of them really gave me much of a sense of anything happening other than 'this guy died'. And at the end of it, I don't think I actually got any kind of feel for what this Slater person is doing, or why any of the 'Bystanders' here are helping him hunt down the government agents in the first place.
If you have a look at the role pms, and then the lynch scenes, the effort there was to focus on the characters and how they reacted to their own deaths, the idea being to create claustrophobia and focus on the people rather than anything more of the environment.
As for Slater, he was supposed to be an enigma, a mysterious force in order to keep him at a distance as a bad guy. Make him too real and he becomes less of a threat.
I take your point about why the town helped him and why he didn't just kill everyone... but hey, where's the fun in that right?
Ultimately, the feeling that you weren't too sure of exactly what was going on story-wise beyond the initial setup was kind of purposeful. It was just a bunch of people, real people, all morally grey, who just got caught up in the wrong place, wrong time. Did they deserve it? Do you care?
Eh. That's kind of the problem, I think - because we weren't sure what exactly was going on story-wise, I never really felt I cared about any of these people.
Although I suppose dying night 1 might have coloured my attention a bit. >_>
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
As a mini annoucement, the game has been moved to the main forum, so this is mostly a bump so that people see it and can read through it if they so desire.
537 (ced395): What is there even to "test"? Do you really think RR is lying about being able to kill someone? Where's the gain in that? Actually, this whole situation reminds me of Led Zeppelin Mafia, where our toughguy was floundering and pretty much all of us went in like idiots to try to save him, failed, outed ourselves, and crashed and burned. 595 (Seppel): Exactly the Led Zep point I made above. Zionite is clumsily wading in to save his toughguy because he values the toughguy shot more than his own safety. 696 (Seppel): Am interested to hear your thoughts re: the similarity of this situation to Led Zeppelin Mafia's D1 and D2.
p.s. This game kind of reminds me of some of the games from the Dark Ages (like 2009-2010 era games, I'm talking about Led Zep, Sword of Truth, South Park, etc) which were basically just Roleclaim Mafia. Run somebody up, they claim, run someone else up, rinse and repeat.
It's not DYH who knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again; it's Zindabad.
a scumtell I've found is that when someone references a scum game they're pobably scum (I had to hold back a lot in Eeveelouthion mafia to avoid referenceing scum game because IT WAS JUST SO EASY TO DO
re: a comment in DRey's last post: I just watched Az plainsight coach his scumbuddy Zionite on D2 of Cyberspace Mafia, so it does happen.
SO EASY TO DO
It's because you think of how someone acts as scum and YOU THINK OF YOURSELF and you're like OH YEAH I (or a buddy) TOTALLY DID THAT AS SCUM and you're like WHAMMO
but really the high level play is to call someone out on that BS.
I swear Zindabad mentioned Led Zepepling somewhere evlse
I just had an off-game. I dunno. Lately I'm trying to shake my 'rabid dog' image and to generally give people the benefit of the doubt more. What a terrible idea.
I don't think that the scum ever had a chance in this game. The town had 4 info roles, while the scum had, as Seppel already said, one extra kill and a roleblocker. And there wasn't even an SK to help whittle down the town's numbers.
You guys sure posted alot
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Yeah, but Az said he was being serious.
No worries; but yelling at people not to Cop you is pretty sketchy, for future reference.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Asking not to be investigated is only ever going to raise suspicions, no matter how noble your intentions. If you get some obscure role that is like 'anyone that targets you dies', then you just claim that outright. But otherwise, trying to avoid being investigated just makes you look like scum.
Also, coming into a game thread lamenting the fact that you can't lie about your role also looks bad. I was really worried that dealing with you was going to be a chore after you made that post, but you were just fine in the end.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
The dual thread thing had issues, but not nearly as bad as some of the complaining players make it out to be. It's obviously experimental and I'd gladly play in the next revision of the mechanic.
I apologize for griping, but it was a very frustrating situation to be placed in.
I'm also unsure why Cyberspace wasn't used as either A) Day 1 redux or B) a constantly updated source of what was going on in Realspace, but I wasn't really in much of a position to change B until it was too late, and A wasn't happening with the parties involved (considering any action I did to change that was just met with overwhelming skepticism).
Also expected to be far, far out of my depth (and the initial parts of my reread proved such), but there were such overwhelming levels of apathy once I got up to speed, it became irrelevant. Other than the jacking speed, I think this could've been a very enjoyable, interesting game had the mafia not gotten smashed to bits.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Haven't read the scum chat, but it seemed mostly like they blew themselves up this game as opposed to simply being out-powered. Like, yeah, at the end they were totally overmatched, but that tends to happen when too many scum die too fast. Including all the scum in Cyberspace, which let the power roles there just run completely free.
I'm not sure how to fix the mechanic. The concept is very cool, but it does seem like Cyberspace in this kind of game is almost inevitably going to be less active. Quicker switching back and forth (even in the same game day) would seem to help, though it might moot the purpose.
Still, I give major props to the mods for the effort.
Oh yeah, and I banned my scumbuddy zindabad night 1 for WIFOMy purposes. And it carried him pretty well I think.
I agree that this hindered the movement too much. Another thing I think may have helped is if more players had abilities that worked in either realm, though differently depending on where. That would lead to more strategic movement. The way it was set-up, it seems like most players had one spot where they needed to be for their ability, and no real reason to leave once there.
I was only trying to explain to you the things you were missing, and I definitely became frustrated at some point when it started to feel like you weren't even reading my posts, especially after I had just lost a game because a townie decided to go behind my back instead of working with me. -But, I wasn't ever trying to call you stupid, and if it came across that way I apologize.
If you still want to discuss the theory issues that were at hand, I'd be happy to meet you over in the Mafia Theory and Discussion thread.
The scum team shot themselves in the foot pretty badly from the outset(the only real 2 suspicious people on Day 1 were BOTH scum and Kraj very clearly tied himself to RR), but I'm not convinced that they were going to win under any circumstances. The town had everything going for it, and the scum had practically no power.
IDK, I think this game could have easily ended something like "mislynch Axel for CC, mislynch Iso for dichotomy, mislynch CPE for too many info roles, scum wins."
Also, was there really no way for me to gain a vig-shot?
And if Axel got lynched, the correct follow up would be to investigate Iso, which would prevent that mislynch also.
Of course, Asenion should never have been lynched either. Certainly not before Zindabad, and arguably WG. I know that the town won, but the way that the game worked out was just..distasteful to me. We weren't really playing mafia at the end, we were just blowing through roles in order of confirmation.
I'm surprised that Zindabad even bothered once Axel was investigated as town(or arguably as soon as Azrael got lynched). There is just no way that he can win at that point.
I would recommend the scumchat. Azrael posted some very insightful (and large) posts in it.
That's mostly why I instituted the delay, to stop changing realms being so trivial that it didn't matter. Perhaps making it slower each time you change would allow some fluidity but not so much that it's too easy.
Thanks for the props though.
I was worried that if people could choose realms, they'd probably just stay in Realspace. I also wanted being banned to be a big drawback rather than just a downgrade. Nearly doubling the number of abilities would have greatly increased complexity and balancing (which was hard enough) - as you can see, we basically wanted a Normal complexity ish game with a fundamentally new mechanic. Too much more complexity would have made the game
an Azrael gamealmost impenetrably complex.Still, there could have been some incentive for almost everyone to go to Cyberspace. I just wanted some people to not want to go to prevent the whole game moving thread N0, although there could have been one or two more.
We correctly guessed that almost everyone with a CS ability would jack in N0 (only Seppel didn't), and CS would have been much more interesting and numerous if there had been scum to hunt and 2 replacements hadn't been basically forced to drop out into Realspace.
Afraid not
http://z8.invisionfree.com/A_Forum_For_Things/index.php?showforum=6
Encoded channel QTs:
http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/awXXVa8XJC3
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tqsYq7bKhmSH
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/s7WMDHT9eGRRG
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/8kYtjsEurvuZ
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/SiuLTixVqd8EN
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You are really stuck on this. I don't know what behavior that you think you exhibited that was clearly pro-town throughout the game. You went along with every wagon that came up, and didn't resist any of them ever. The only person that you put any effort into trying to get lynched was town(GD).
Not to say that my game was any better. It wasn't. But I am aware of this.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There's a big difference between saying you want to lynch someone, and DYH(? maybe desCoures) questioning RobRoy's motives in extreme detail.
Yep, thanks.
You mentioned a read on him early, sure, but I did the legwork for that case, which is why I was in the scum hit-list N1 of their chat along with Cythare (soft counter) and desCoures (analysis).
To be fair, though, I had a pretty town read on you throughout - I seem to recall deconstructing some of your earlier posts and coming out with a clean read, and you weren't in my "quintet of doom" on Day 2.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
A lot of what I had to say is in the spectator thread. Other thoughts...
- I agree that making the cyberspace/realspace move instant would have gone a long way towards making the game more dynamic.
- Rolewise, I would have given zindabad some minor-ish role instead of outright vanilla mafia. (Even the 'sole vanilla' role would have been an improvement.) Similarly, I might have switched cpe's role to something else entirely. But honestly, with the tools at the mafia's collective disposal, I don't actually think the game was unbalanced at all - if they had actually kept access to their cyberspace ban, the town would probably have found themselves largely vanilla in short order. At the end of it, it was pure day bad play that led to this mess for the mafia. I still find Kraj and Zionite's attempts to protect RobRoy inexplicable. And while the mafia team banning zindabad did help to false confirm him for a while, that choice - together with Kraj and Zionite's day 1 play making them obvious targets for town kill/ban abilities, meant that town had pretty much free run of cyberspace abilities. =
- ...but, that being said, it's clear that one mod decision - nay, error - most definitely adversely affected the mafia. The day 1 switch to cyberspace players being lynchable by realspace was definitely required, but was really something that should have been caught in design, not fixed on day 1 when the mafia had no daytalk. As a result, just as I'd expected, 4 out of 5 scum were headed to cyberspace night 1, and without daytalk I'm guessing none of them dared to change their decision.
- I'm still personally a bit peeved that no one bothered to look at zindabad at all for multiple days, even after I left a hanging exhortation to pressure him on day 2 even if I wasn't around. His 'summaries' on day 1, complete with the careful lack of any mention on RobRoy and his obviously insincere attempts to discredit me were blazing red flags. And the biggest red flag of all, of course, was his mention of Inheritance Mafia - which he has gone on record as saying he wishes he forgot had ever happened. A town zindabad would never drag out such a loaded reference without an obvious ulterior motive.
- Flavour-wise - the role PMs were written well, and gave a sense of a window into this world. The lynch/morning scenes, however... not so much. None of them really gave me much of a sense of anything happening other than 'this guy died'. And at the end of it, I don't think I actually got any kind of feel for what this Slater person is doing, or why any of the 'Bystanders' here are helping him hunt down the government agents in the first place.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Having said that, I was very surprised to see the town try so often to lynch players in Cyberspace: it was supposed to be a last-ditch way to lynch an obvious Mafioso hiding in cyberspace if a ban couldn't be achieved.
On zindabad being vanilla: vanilla mafia was actually quite an interesting role: he had the freedom to be in either realm that no other scum had. He could have had a token ability, but as it stood he was equally viable in both realms.
Or rather, equally non-viable. The fact is that nearly all of the mafia had fairly scummy roleclaims - roleblocker, rolecop, point of contact, one-shot cyberspace kill, the only vanilla claim in the game. Giving zindabad some kind of more claimable ability might have helped. If you really wanted him vanilla, you could have given him the 'only vanilla' ability, where he is vanilla with the information that no one else is vanilla; I can guarantee you some players would have considered him cleared based on 'no one with that role could possibly be scum'.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Well, I don't think anyone in their right mind should have been considering lynching Axel in the situation we were in, so
But really, if Axel, Iso, and WG had all turned up dead with info roles, you wouldn't have been suspicious that CPE was false-claiming that 4th info role, especially since it was a completely unconfirmable one?
That's kinda mean. -I had high hopes for being able to go offensive at some point. I mean, I was a little disappointed during the game when I thought the upgrader was dead, but to find out it was always this unreachable lie is just disheartening.
Iso, pretty much every single thing you say or do is scummy. -Seriously, I'll be reading a post and saying to myself, "That's a tell. And another. Oh, this one is even worse... wait a minute. *scrolls up* Oh, it's an Iso post, NVM."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Eh. That's kind of the problem, I think - because we weren't sure what exactly was going on story-wise, I never really felt I cared about any of these people.
Although I suppose dying night 1 might have coloured my attention a bit. >_>
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Could just move the Cyberspace threadand then scrap that forum.Zindabad is using this line:
because of Sword of Truth where DYH called him out on the Led Zeppelin thing.
YET HE CAN'T STOP TALKING ABOUT IT
It's not DYH who knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again; it's Zindabad.
a scumtell I've found is that when someone references a scum game they're pobably scum (I had to hold back a lot in Eeveelouthion mafia to avoid referenceing scum game because IT WAS JUST SO EASY TO DO
SO EASY TO DO
It's because you think of how someone acts as scum and YOU THINK OF YOURSELF and you're like OH YEAH I (or a buddy) TOTALLY DID THAT AS SCUM and you're like WHAMMO
but really the high level play is to call someone out on that BS.
I swear Zindabad mentioned Led Zepepling somewhere evlse
I'll be sover in the morning don't worry
unvote, vote zindabad
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Might wanna, um, move that post to the right game though.