@PSR: TMCT voted me for his perceived delay of me in not answering his questions. You constantly avoided answering my question about the reasonings for voting me, so I voted for you. Why are you contesting my vote on you but not his vote on me?
Also, can you please point out to me where exactly did I call you scum? Because I don't remembering ever calling you scum, which then feels pretty self-conscious of you.
I'm not contesting TMCT since I believe the two of you are scum buddies and are bussing each other on Day 1.
I'm still waiting for clarification from PSR and Allwin. The former said nothing upon voting me
I didn’t find anything where you directly called me scum, but have been scum hunting me which implies that you believe me to be scum. Your thought process was confirmed when you placed your vote on me. Unless you are pushing me for being anti-town which no one has out lined yet. Eron outlined why he thought I was scum.
I sort of disagree here. Maybe not at the one or two vote mark, especially at the end of RVS, but in general I think reasonless votes are bad and if I get them, I'm sure going to want to know why.
In general, then yes. But we’re not talking in general. We are talking about a specific point in the game and a specific vote. Please do not change the subject at hand.
You voted iPot, but said that he was not the lynch for today. That doesn't line up to your feeling of the underlined here. In fact, based on your reasoning presented here, your own vote on iPot was anti-town.
You’re not understanding me here…
I would still be happy with a lynch on iPot and my vote would be on him if the town agreed with me.
Since the town doesn’t want to help me in lynching iPot I have to look elsewhere.
My vote has not been anti-town and will not be anti-town. You are twisting what I am saying to fit what you are seeing in your eyes.
Tunneling is probably the wrong word here, I think. The point is, throughout this game, once you have you sights on someone, you are reading EVERYTHING they do as scummy. No scum is so bad that every post they have is awful.
Tunneling would probably be the closest definition to being correct. I will give you that, but as we know there is a small difference. While I see what you are saying, I will have to disagree, since I haven’t responded to every single posts from the players that I see as scum.
I agree with the "this is a basic, people need to learn thing." Why I initially commented on this was because of your tone in the post. This is not scummy nor a tell, just pointing out that if you are trying to help someone learn, then the tone in which you do it will have an effect on whether or not they listen. (I still think your definition is wrong though. I think OMGUS is a vote that is strictly a vote for someone that voted you. Reasoning may or may not be provided)
I will try to find the definition in the Theory Thread. If not we can discuss it there post game.
I always find it funny when someone comments on my tone when I felt that I had a neutral tone at the time.
Then please define the proper use of a vote for the class.
Eron, don’t be snarky. It doesn’t look good on you. (I know I have been snarky as well, but I have been nearly my entire life. I’m not so sure about you since I am not you. :p)
Votes can be used for numerous things, but only a few things of those are legit reasons.
A townie should use their vote primarily for applying pressure and lynching scum.
The last thing a townie should be using their vote for is someone who is actually being anti-town. There are other ways to get rid of someone who is anti-town. Lynching them is waste unless they absolutely refuse to correct their behavior and play style, but that is rare.
There are other reasons to vote, but coming up with them on the fly like this is proving to be a difficult task for me.
While I appreciate you calling me a somewhat smart player, I'm still pretty awful at this game.
As far as tying myself to KK - with the experience you have, you know that it is absolutely suicide to jump into a game and try and reverse a lynch at L-1. WIFOM argument, but I would've just agreed and hammered for the town credit.
You must have missed the part that I had a town read on you. After reviewing these responses it’s been lowered to a null read verging on a leaning scum read.
I find it interesting that you are calling JD town - I don't recall a single post from him that stands out. I can see Tetris as town at this point, but that view is still reliant on noone flipping at this point.
The following posts from JD have helped me gain a town read on him:
This attack on Ipot seems premature, the point you attack him on is a reason to watch him not to have a go at him and let him try to correct the behavior.
Is it over eagerness to appear to be scum hunting or a subtle coach to curb the nervousness?
@Passenger: the vote is the strongest tool the town has true. But it not just for voting who you think is scum, It can be used to pressure answers from people, provoke reactions. Essentially clever use of a vote can help you get a read on someone.
Truk vs PSR.
Both sides of this debate keep misresprenting points, I dont think either side has raised a solid point against each other.
PSR has his aggressive stab against iPot leaning against him and Truk has the mass claim possible as a sore point but these are relatively weak points, ultimately I think we have a case of town vs town here.
To me currently the most suspicious person is KK. He takes the opportunity to drop in a claim while mass claims was being discussed, despite the consensus leaning toward not claiming.
Most of his posts this game have been RVS or related to his prematured claim, I see very little pro-town behaviour in any of the posts.
JD, riddle the idea of Allwin and KK as scum buddies. Tell me your thoughts.
Same for Tetris.
Town gain nothing from answering the question asked but a scum KK would.
Buddies was definately what I was thinking when I said I didn't like his post.
Regarding Tezz if you are asking if he could be a buddy of KK its a maybe. His case on KK came 2-3 hours after I laid out my suspicion, the timing of the case could be considered odd, essentially he did the quote wall legwork for me.
Then he has proceeded to bus KK hard, could be distancing if KK if they are buddies.
Welcome you be, Eron. It's good to be playing with you again so quickly.
PSR answered your PBPA on him and yet refused to outline his reasons for vote me, dismissing your questions with a hand-wave disguised as an "How can't you see it?" slightly OMGUS.
Vote PSR
Besides him, I'm leaning scum for Allwin, who still hadn't explained all those reasons to find me scummy in his opinion.
He did not refuse to outline his reasons for voting you, he said he wanted to the PBPA in its own post.
Funny how you apply pressure here to try derail your own wagon just as Eron presents a case.
If you believe PSR committed OMGUS by voting someone who is voting them, you have just done so to PSR, and have pseudo done so to Allwin.
He is constantly refusing to lay out HIS reasons, HIS arguments for voting me. And incredibly, most people here, including you, seem to be ok with that.
Which in and of itself is not scummy. The fact that you had this prepared and ready to go within 20~ minutes is what I find strange.
Baiting for reactions is strange...
That doesn't look like what he said. What it looks like he said(and something I have thought, if not mentioned outright) is that within 20 minutes of my first post you had decided that I was nervous and went and looked at my first post of each game to decide if I appeared nervous in any of those games.
I sort of disagree here. Maybe not at the one or two vote mark, especially at the end of RVS, but in general I think reasonless votes are bad and if I get them, I'm sure going to want to know why.
In general, then yes. But we’re not talking in general. We are talking about a specific point in the game and a specific vote. Please do not change the subject at hand.
The bolded here seems a little dramatic. You posted a reasonless vote on me in less than half an hour after my first post, right after a person placed a RVS vote on me. I was curious why.
You voted iPot, but said that he was not the lynch for today. That doesn't line up to your feeling of the underlined here. In fact, based on your reasoning presented here, your own vote on iPot was anti-town.
You’re not understanding me here…
I would still be happy with a lynch on iPot and my vote would be on him if the town agreed with me.
Since the town doesn’t want to help me in lynching iPot I have to look elsewhere.
My vote has not been anti-town and will not be anti-town. You are twisting what I am saying to fit what you are seeing in your eyes.
Much like you're twisting what I've done to fit yours much?
So you are selectively taking what you would like from that game in order to put him in a more negative light.
It’s called case building. I suggest you give it a try sometime. ;)p
And again you try to trivialize his argument. "Case building" and trying to use only the portion of meta that "supports" your argument(I use quotes because I maintain that I was not nervous in my first post) are not the same thing.
I think you're making assumptions here that may not be true, but yeah, I suppose you're right.
I wish that Iso had not touched the acronym page. The OMGUS definition is not listed there anymore.
“Making assumptions that may be not be true” and “I suppose you’re right” do not match up together. Contradicting yourself is rarely a good thing.
@Iso
This whole "OMGUS MEANS THIS HERE!" argument feels like semantics to me. Who cares what the "official MTGS definition" of it is? Its a term with a general use that, under general guidelines, you happen to fit.
Tunneling is probably the wrong word here, I think. The point is, throughout this game, once you have you sights on someone, you are reading EVERYTHING they do as scummy. No scum is so bad that every post they have is awful.
Tunneling would probably be the closest definition to being correct. I will give you that, but as we know there is a small difference. While I see what you are saying, I will have to disagree, since I haven’t responded to every single posts from the players that I see as scum.
You’re over exaggerating the situation.
Hi pot. My name is kettle. I heard you've been saying things about me.
I agree with the "this is a basic, people need to learn thing." Why I initially commented on this was because of your tone in the post. This is not scummy nor a tell, just pointing out that if you are trying to help someone learn, then the tone in which you do it will have an effect on whether or not they listen. (I still think your definition is wrong though. I think OMGUS is a vote that is strictly a vote for someone that voted you. Reasoning may or may not be provided)
I will try to find the definition in the Theory Thread. If not we can discuss it there post game.
I always find it funny when someone comments on my tone when I felt that I had a neutral tone at the time.
So your tone can be misinterpreted by others, but you could not have possibly misinterpreted me. Cool.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia. UNLESS safe claims are a common thing on this site, in which case I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility of his scumness. For the record, this is now the third time I've asked about safe claims. Hoping this one gets a response.
This basically reads as "Thanks for the case...In other news, I still want KK dead."
More like "Thanks for the case...In related news, can you expand on your thoughts on KK like you just did with PSR? I still want KK dead." Bear in mind at that point you hadn't announced that you were going to do a PBPA on KK. Now apropos of that case on KK:
@ETR-So... your entire case on why KK is not scum is because you have a feeling, and he's said in his posts that he's town, therefore he must be town? I'm not changing my vote. Sorry.
Yeah - I didn't expect to turn it around, but I wanted my thoughts out there before we go to night. I also wanted to try and get a better read on a few people.
How genuine is your read on KK, and how genuine was your case on him? Are you more confident that KK is town, or that PSR is scum?
This basically reads as "Thanks for the case...In other news, I still want KK dead."
More like "Thanks for the case...In related news, can you expand on your thoughts on KK like you just did with PSR? I still want KK dead." Bear in mind at that point you hadn't announced that you were going to do a PBPA on KK. Now apropos of that case on KK:
It's also the fact that you didn't comment on it at all. And that you still haven't.
@ETR-So... your entire case on why KK is not scum is because you have a feeling, and he's said in his posts that he's town, therefore he must be town? I'm not changing my vote. Sorry.
Yeah - I didn't expect to turn it around, but I wanted my thoughts out there before we go to night. I also wanted to try and get a better read on a few people.
How genuine is your read on KK, and how genuine was your case on him? Are you more confident that KK is town, or that PSR is scum?
That's actually a really good question. My read is 100% genuine, I don't believe he is scum. As far as who am I more confident in, I would say that I'm more confident that PSR is scum than KK is town.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia. UNLESS safe claims are a common thing on this site, in which case I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility of his scumness. For the record, this is now the third time I've asked about safe claims. Hoping this one gets a response.
Define safe claim.
And what about the rest of the case on him?
A safe claim would be a role that would be expected to be in a particular game based on the theme (in this case, the suspected safe claim of Thalia in an Innistrad game) but actually isn't and is told to a mafia member that they can claim in case of emergency. I've seen mods on other sites give the mafia a bunch of claims to choose from that would help them in a crisis if needed. My problem is that I have no idea if that is a thing that gets done here on any kind of regular basis.
As for the rest of the case on him, I would have to read it with fresh eyes after learning about the site's general use of safe claims or not. Currently my belief is that he is a townie because I can not see the point in making such a claim so early in the game unless he is town or scum with a safe claim trying to slip it by.
It's also the fact that you didn't comment on it at all. And that you still haven't.
I said in post #224 that I agree with the points that had me voting for PSR a week ago. To clarify:
- I don't like PSR's vote on iPot in the early game.
- I don't like PSR using meta that's several years old.
- I don't like what I saw as inconsistency in whether PSR was watching for reactions or not (although PSR has since addressed this to my satisfaction).
- I think PSR's Truk vote was borderline OMGUS (I think I used the phrase "thinly-veiled" originally), and arguing about the exact definition of OMGUS in that case is very semantic.
I disagree with some points after that.
- I don't have a problem with PSR's naked KK vote. The wagon already had a strong case riding on it, but at the same time PSR's vote only put KK to L-2. All that was needed was a /barn.
- I don't have a problem with having more than 3 scum suspects.
So KK's flip notwithstanding, I only have a light scum read on PSR. Nothing even worth pursuing given my case on KK.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia. UNLESS safe claims are a common thing on this site, in which case I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility of his scumness. For the record, this is now the third time I've asked about safe claims. Hoping this one gets a response.
Define safe claim.
And what about the rest of the case on him?
A safe claim would be a role that would be expected to be in a particular game based on the theme (in this case, the suspected safe claim of Thalia in an Innistrad game) but actually isn't and is told to a mafia member that they can claim in case of emergency. I've seen mods on other sites give the mafia a bunch of claims to choose from that would help them in a crisis if needed. My problem is that I have no idea if that is a thing that gets done here on any kind of regular basis.
As for the rest of the case on him, I would have to read it with fresh eyes after learning about the site's general use of safe claims or not. Currently my belief is that he is a townie because I can not see the point in making such a claim so early in the game unless he is town or scum with a safe claim trying to slip it by.
Those are called false claims here, and yeah, they happen. I actually think me and a few others have actually done analysis on that already in this game.
I have seen the term false claim thrown around, but I was unaware that it was the same thing as safe claims. This is not the first case of terminology differences I've been caught in over here.
Knowing that, I am more suspicious of his initial claim. Especially when it was so much more than anything that anyone was asking for when asking for a mass claim to begin with. As well as his "I'm an honest guy, honest" type speech. I'm going to go over the thread again and, knowing this, will see if anything sticks out to me specifically.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia.
If he's unexperienced mafia, he could have seen Truk's request as a perfect opportunity to claim town without seeming unwarranted. As I said before, I believe it was a decision made in poor judgement and he's ever since trying to downplay it.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia.
If he's unexperienced mafia, he could have seen Truk's request as a perfect opportunity to claim town without seeming unwarranted. As I said before, I believe it was a decision made in poor judgement and he's ever since trying to downplay it.
@EtR: No responses for me? :/
I'm on my phone and can't dissect bigger posts. I need to follow up on a few. Probably tomorrow. Unless I get on the PC later.
If he's unexperienced mafia, he could have seen Truk's request as a perfect opportunity to claim town without seeming unwarranted. As I said before, I believe it was a decision made in poor judgement and he's ever since trying to downplay it.
I believe he said that he has more than a little experience at mafia. I would have to go back and look for a specific quote to be positive though. Something along the lines of "I'm not new, but I'm not a veteran" or something similar.
And again, that was also before I knew that false claims(which I've been referring to as Safe Claims) were something that gets used here as well. Thalia is a high profile character, one that I would not be surprised to see as a role in this game. I would be equally unsurprised to find out Thalia is a mod-given false claim as well. So, again, I am going to go over the thread and looks at the arguments made against him and his responses.
I sort of disagree here. Maybe not at the one or two vote mark, especially at the end of RVS, but in general I think reasonless votes are bad and if I get them, I'm sure going to want to know why.
In general, then yes. But we’re not talking in general. We are talking about a specific point in the game and a specific vote. Please do not change the subject at hand.
I'm not changing the subject, I'm talking comparitivly. This is what I feel is you pushing things in a negative light that aren't always that way.
You voted iPot, but said that he was not the lynch for today. That doesn't line up to your feeling of the underlined here. In fact, based on your reasoning presented here, your own vote on iPot was anti-town.
You’re not understanding me here…
I would still be happy with a lynch on iPot and my vote would be on him if the town agreed with me.
Since the town doesn’t want to help me in lynching iPot I have to look elsewhere.
My vote has not been anti-town and will not be anti-town. You are twisting what I am saying to fit what you are seeing in your eyes.
Tunneling is probably the wrong word here, I think. The point is, throughout this game, once you have you sights on someone, you are reading EVERYTHING they do as scummy. No scum is so bad that every post they have is awful.
Tunneling would probably be the closest definition to being correct. I will give you that, but as we know there is a small difference. While I see what you are saying, I will have to disagree, since I haven’t responded to every single posts from the players that I see as scum.
You’re over exaggerating the situation.
You don't need to respond to each and every post to hone in on someone. The feel that I get is that you are pushing until you see the town didn't get behind it and then abandoned the wagon for a different one.
Then please define the proper use of a vote for the class.
Eron, don’t be snarky. It doesn’t look good on you. (I know I have been snarky as well, but I have been nearly my entire life. I’m not so sure about you since I am not you. :p)
Votes can be used for numerous things, but only a few things of those are legit reasons.
A townie should use their vote primarily for applying pressure and lynching scum.
The last thing a townie should be using their vote for is someone who is actually being anti-town. There are other ways to get rid of someone who is anti-town. Lynching them is waste unless they absolutely refuse to correct their behavior and play style, but that is rare.
There are other reasons to vote, but coming up with them on the fly like this is proving to be a difficult task for me.
I typically am extremely sarcastic. I tone it down here because I don't really know you guys.
That being said the underlined portion is what you were trying to push the whole policy lynch bit on. So you feel that a townie can use there vote for pushing a policy lynch, yet you voted Truk(?) for doing the same.
While I appreciate you calling me a somewhat smart player, I'm still pretty awful at this game.
As far as tying myself to KK - with the experience you have, you know that it is absolutely suicide to jump into a game and try and reverse a lynch at L-1. WIFOM argument, but I would've just agreed and hammered for the town credit.
You must have missed the part that I had a town read on you. After reviewing these responses it’s been lowered to a null read verging on a leaning scum read.
What part of my responses would cause you to change your mind?
Also - you agree that TMCT did hand wave what I put together. Do you believe that a scum would hand wave a case on a townie? Especially when the current leading wagon is supposedly on a scum?
I'm going to /barn most of what Makoun said in his post in response to Eron. Thanks for that, btw. Eron's case for KK being town is completely ridiculous, as I've said in a previous post. And as Eron conceded above.
Onto Phoenix.
1. I'm reading Eron opposiotly right now. Honestly, his answer to the case on KK means that I'm going to be looking at him tomorrow if KK flips scum as I expect him to.
2. About TCMT-I'll look at that tomorrow regarding KK's flip. Thanks though, i hadn't noticed that.
3. Yeah, I noticed the definite change in KK's flow after Eron entered the game. That just feeds into why if KK is scum, I'm betting Eron will be as well.
@HammerandSickled-So you don't see KK being scum as a possibility?
I see everyone as having a chance at being scum. There is always a possibility. The probabilities change with new evidence but for now I'm giving someone like Kosa a 40-50% scum chance and someone like PSR or Truk 50-60%. I'm not wholly convinced by any argument so far one way or another, I'm still collecting reads.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia.
If he's unexperienced mafia, he could have seen Truk's request as a perfect opportunity to claim town without seeming unwarranted. As I said before, I believe it was a decision made in poor judgement and he's ever since trying to downplay it.
@EtR: No responses for me? :/
The problem with KK is that is he hasnt done anything that is pro-town. he claimed and then tried to down play it.
I haven't seen any convincing scum hunting from him, its all thinly veiled deflection.
@HammerandSickled-So you don't see KK being scum as a possibility?
I see everyone as having a chance at being scum. There is always a possibility. The probabilities change with new evidence but for now I'm giving someone like Kosa a 40-50% scum chance and someone like PSR or Truk 50-60%. I'm not wholly convinced by any argument so far one way or another, I'm still collecting reads.
This post reads as fencesitting.
Percentages aside, are you leaning scum or town on the people you mention in your post.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Random thought: if KK is scum why is he still alive. I'm 99% sure he's at L-1. Surely, the scum would want to limit the conversation that we are having right now. That says to me KK is probably town (that's why he hasn't self hammered) and all the scum are already on his wagon.
Random thought: if KK is scum why is he still alive. I'm 99% sure he's at L-1. Surely, the scum would want to limit the conversation that we are having right now. That says to me KK is probably town (that's why he hasn't self hammered) and all the scum are already on his wagon.
It may not have occurred to KK to self-hammer.
Also if scum did not have daytalk such a post would be the only way to hint at KK to do so.
Some players refuse to self-hammer ever. Read a Tordeck scum game for an example of a player that does just that.
Overall this point is Null.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
EtR, I like your calm reasoning and your call to cool heads but I think your reasons for NOT suspecting KK are pretty weak and almost betraying a pre-established desire to read him as town. I'll go over your own post to prove it.
I'm Thalia, and while I would love to have First Strike and make noncreature spells cost more, I'm a Vanilla Townie. Meh.
My vote was purely RVS, so Unvote
Could this be from a scum mindset? Sure, but I don't think that is the case here. There was very little commenting on it initially. If it were from scum, I would expect a buddy to jump in and help.
This is a very subjective take on the matter. I could equally say "Sure, it seems to be the case here." The fact that buddies didn't jump to help him is because with a blunder of that magnitude that would attract the attention of everyone, any other scum would have to be very clueless to risk getting smeared in it.
Please outline why it is a blunder as opposed to a VT not caring. Again - it's not a play that I would do, or do I recommend for anyone else, but I don't think it was scum motivated.
@Dexter: nah, you will get quickly used to my honesty (bar insane gambits) while playing Mafia. I don't have any reasons to hide my role being Vanilla.
Oh, and please don't be distracted by my action, that's not my intention. While I'm still divided about what's happening, I will, again, heartfully ask all of you to limit the meta discussion. It is hardly a good argument.
This was based on a previous statement by me (The Dark Passenger) placing an IGMEOY due to Kosa trying to "distract" from the Truk situation. There really hasn't been a Truk situation though and I like Kosa's response here. It feels honest.
Again, it "feels" honest. I dunno you but it "feels" pretty scummy to me when someone tries to vaguely dismiss a blunder like this. By pointing that it shouldn't be a "distraction" from X matter, that person is actually saying "hey, let's go back to pay attention to that thing we were talking about before. Mind me not!" Which seems terribly scummy to me.
I agree that it can be read that way, I'm just not reading it that way.
Already answered No. 2. Both are poor argumentation. Although, I gotta concede, less-experienced players might fall into meta-tells, I consider the sheer fact of using it to be a lack of argument. "God, this game is going nowhere. I think I will check some other games to have an insight..." while the plays should be confined to THIS game.
About claiming, no, I see no problem. If scum avoid NK'ing me because I lack a power role, good for us. The best power roles we can possible have are fully funcional brains.
While I dislike this logic, I can't read it from a scum mindset. Considering this is a basic, we can't rely on just the power roles to win the game.
So saying "hey I'm going to say I'm vanilla town so scum won't kill me" should be immediately acknowledged as a townslip? Rather, it seems like trying to heavily but underhandedly imply one townness, which I don't think is a proper way for a town to claim.
I'm not saying it is a townslip - it definitely isn't. What I'm saying is that I'm not reading it as a scum. Scum aren't concerned with the NK since they control it.
1: You will eat those words with righteousness when/if I flip.
I read his answer to 1 as honest. In what I've seen from Kosa he's very brash and abrasive. That doesn't make him scum. The way these 4 bullets read to me, it's like he fired them off one after another not giving a lot of thought to responses. Based on that, I believe his claim.
This is absurdly disingenuous and kind of eyebrow-raising from an experienced player as you seem to be. So threatening to flip town is a towntell? Really? You have no reason to believe the claim other than you wanting to believe it which makes me wonder why. Whether you are his scumbuddy, or just a town convinced of PSR's scumminess and wanting to abandon KK's wagon to jump on PSR's, I can't tell yet. I've harboured suspicions about PSR myself, but they are nowhere near to the scumreading I'm getting from KK.
Please use "Experienced" in the loosest of terms. I've played about 10 games and I'm still pretty awful. I can tell you 2 things here: 1)I'm convinced of PSR's scumminess. 2) I'm pretty sure that KK is town.
This statement shows to me that Kosa and PSR cannot be of the same alignment, or at the very least their alignment is not known to each other. Kosa has firmly disagreed with PSR's tactics here and I conclude that they are not scum buddies. The only other option is town/scum or town/town. I believe the way that PSR
1. Jumped on iPot
2. Moved to Truk with the "policy lynch" nonsense
3 Naked voted Kosa
leads to the conclusion that Kosa is not the scum in this equation.
This follows what I'm pointing above. You seem awfully sure of what I highlighted in green, but when it comes to expand on it (in magenta) you point all possible configurations BUT "scum/town". Why are you SO sure?
Town/town and scum/town are the only alignment possibilities. When stating scum/town vs town/scum, I mean the same thing one is scum and one is town. I'm not implying one or the other. Basically insert either player into the scum slot and the other into the town slot. I think it's clear who I think is what, but that isn't what I was trying to say here.
My opinions: Firstly I didn't like PSR's initial attack. While meta in general is a bad thing to resort for, I can see it as being a way to generate reaction. If he's the experienced gimmick he claims to be, I don't think he would, as scum, go back to a game from years ago searching for arguments to paint someone scum in the first 20 posts of a game. More so, iPot's answer to his attack seemed honest. 1
No read on Truk's claim proposal, but this post caught my attention:
Very interesting tetris. I'm not going to hop on this KK wagon at the moment, but I have absolutely noticed his plainsight lurking. I had a noob town read on him but you may be right about this.
Bolded is my emphasis.
I didn't like that fence-sit. He's not jumping at my wagon at the moment, but that gives a free pass, in the future, for him to jump on it without arguments and say "Look there! I've expressed suspicion of him before!".
Also, you said you had a noob town read on me, but maybe Tetris is right. So where is that "I want to hear more from him about it" part, especially if, in your opinion, I was town before Tetris' argument? 2
On the rest, for me it's still to early to have good reads.
1. Kosa demonstrates in his first paragraph that he is trying to think about thing from other's viewpoints, in this case PSR. While I disagree with his conclusion here, he is trying to analyze motivation. This is a town mindset.
2. Again looking at motivations behind statements and actions.
This is the second time you say you disagree with him, but are still willing to think of it as a town read. Is it weird that I feel it too forceful on your part? It seems as you are trying to convince yourself (or perhaps us, if you are scum) of something beyond what is readily evident.
Yes, you can disagree with someone and still feel like they are coming from a town mindset.
Good thing people are analyzing my arguments while going for my lynch huh, PSR and Mao. Alas, perceived arrogance doesn't mean bad reasoning. You can dislike this in-game persona as much as you want, but please don't let it tunnel-vision, disregarding my points.
As much as I hate it, this argument is true. I don't like Kosa's attitude, but that doesn't mean he is wrong/scum.
Neither it means that he's town as you seem to imply with your post. Besides, it's an excuse and a diversion. While his arrogance was mentioned by me and others, it was not the reason why we voted for him. If I've condemned someone's attitude in this game is Tetris's.
Jesus Christ. People are really going to lynch someone more than two weeks from the deadline at Day 1 without a single solid tell.
I should hammer myself, but I won't. If I flip in the next couple of hours, at least people will learn on how to not be so bloodthirsty without motive.
On the good side, at least I will have created a meta for meta-lovers to clear me out when I actually fakeclaim as scum.
The frustration here rings true to me.
Time for my eyebrows to raise again. Really? That's an awfully subjective argument that only piles up with most of the things you've said in the rest of this post. This is starting not to smell good at all to me. Also, here... it seems that you "accidentally" skipped this part of a post in your PBPA (it came before this one):
Quote from Kosakosa »
Any odd reactions, for example, already-said unjustified vote. While I wasn't expecting this kind of ****storm over myself (especially while playing in a jokingly and lighthearted way for most of the game), I don't mind at all being on the defensive when I know I'm innocent, given enough time to clarify my points. As long as people don't rush-lynch unnecessarily, having this kind of discussion and analyzing behavior to what is happening right now is way more interesting from a player's perspective then trying to meta-game people over to generate content.
Bolded for emphasis of super-scummy dismissal of one's mistake as a "lighthearted joke" when RVS ended long, long ago. Why did you skip this particular post in your PBPA?
I skipped a few. The ones about font styles and random jabber that I had no comment on. I also never called it a PBPA so the expectation should not have been that every post was inlcuded.
Also, you were fast enough to point out that four players have questioned some aspect of Allwin's response to me, and what about PSR? Am I also "fearmongering" about him? Can you point it out his reasonings to me?
Valid frustration and a valid question addressed here. There was no comment about PSR by TMCT. (Who by the way IGMEOY: TMCT) You're handwave of my case last night and your interactions here do not look good.
Valid frustration? Sure. Proof of being town? Not at all, it totally could be the flailing of a desperate scum.
No not proof, but in my opinion, town seem to get frustrated more often whereas scum try and keep a level, logical head.
There is enough here to make me think that Kosa is not scum. That added to the fact that once PSR flips, we can essentially confirm Kosa's alignment (Bussing aside) I want PSR dead. He has been legitimately scummy almost the entire game. Add that to TMCT's handwave of my case and TMCT's weak half attack on Kosa further help me with this decision.
Sorry, EtR, your case is not half as solid as you believe it to be and I particularly don't like how you are taking as a given that we'll lynch PSR before Kosa. Seems like trying to make us agree with your wagon, or be suspected.
Fair enough. Again, I didn't expect to change the minds of 6 people, but I wanted my opinion out there.
Also - Errata - I guess I did call it a PBPA on KK in an earlier post before I put it up. I shouldn't have or at least I should have had the disclaimer that I didn't quote everything. My apologies Maokun.
Phoenix Sun Rise(4) Truk, HammerAndSickled, EtR, Kosakosa KosaKosa (6) jdisawesomesauce, MzztrTetris, The Most Curious Thing, Maokun, Phoenix Sun Rise, Allwinapprentice
Not voting: iPot, MirrorEntity.
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch. First lynch threshold reduction or LTR for short is on December 20, or 9 days from today.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Oh and, @Phoenix-if I were to ask you a question that would allow me to know if indeed you are the person I think you are without others being able to know (something about a PM), would you answer it?
As I told Eron. Post game I will answer the question, but feel free to PM your question.
I will responds to Eron and iPot when I have more free time. SHould be later tonight.
@DRey
Please prod Truk and Allwinapprentice. They haven't posted in a week.
@MirrorEntity
Do you at least have time to post your reads on KK and PSR?
@iPot
Do you not have a strong enough scum read on either KK or PSR to vote them? Post #247 looks like you have strong enough a read on PSR to vote him.
@DRey
Please prod Truk and Allwinapprentice. They haven't posted in a week.
@MirrorEntity
Do you at least have time to post your reads on KK and PSR?
@iPot
Do you not have a strong enough scum read on either KK or PSR to vote them? Post #247 looks like you have strong enough a read on PSR to vote him.
I had actually wanted to vote PSR a long while back, but was unaware of how many votes were on him at the time. And then by the time I WAS aware of his vote count, I think he was close to lynching. Since then votes have been coming off of him, and I just haven't bothered to make a vote since I don't see the point in doing so yet. We have plenty of time left in the phase for discussion, which from what I've experienced is never a bad thing.
TLDR: I'll vote him, just in my own time basically.
Truk and MirrorEntity have been prodded and have 48 hours to post or be replaced. Allwinaprentice VLA ended yesterday so I'm expecting him to post very soon, if he doesn't I will search for a replacement.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Hey guys, Glad for my finals to be over and back to my more normal schedule which allows me time to play mafia Here is my T/S list for this game. I order my list a little different than most because I belive you are all scum until you flip blue so let me know if you have any questions on it.
Least Scummy
AWA
TMCT
ETR
JDAwe
MTetris
Maokun
HnS
Mirror Entity
IPot
Truk
PSR
KK
Most Scummy
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Hey guys, Glad for my finals to be over and back to my more normal schedule which allows me time to play mafia Here is my T/S list for this game. I order my list a little different than most because I belive you are all scum until you flip blue so let me know if you have any questions on it.
Least Scummy
AWA
TMCT
ETR
JDAwe
MTetris
Maokun
HnS
Mirror Entity
IPot
Truk
PSR
KK
Most Scummy
Some reasoning for your most and least scummy would be great. Not the whole list but maybe bottom and top 3?
Some reasoning for your most and least scummy would be great. Not the whole list but maybe bottom and top 3?
There's no point in doing the town end of the list, the game is about scumhunting not townhunting.
Providing reasons for why someone is town is pointless unless that person is at risk of being lynched. Otherwise it just helps scum pick off towny players.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
@Ipot-Can we get your views now? You said you were going to look over the argument on KK.
I can't find any redeeming features of his play. From looking over it, I see the out-of-nowhere full claim when the only thing asked for was a soft/partial claim. And then a bunch of him saying "I'm an honest person, honest." It looked more like "new player" to me than anything at first, but knowing now about safe claims being a thing here, I'm thinking otherwise.
This game is going so slowly... Gah...
It was really only the last 24-36 hours that went slowly. Otherwise we've had a lot of discussion.
Also, Ipot, don't vote until we get the replacement for Truk in please.
Of course. With there being a huge deadline increase there is no reason to rush the day phase closed.
MirrorEntity will also be replaced. Please try to continue playing as usual guys.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Hey guys, I am replacing Truk. I also have a computer architecture exam in less than 24 hours. I'm going to be awol for like 2 days (one for the exam, 1 to feel ready about posting)
Hi. I'm the new MirrorEntity. I've been following along so my follow up post will come late, but I've been waiting weeks to: vote PSR
Ugh. unvote
I have a scum read on you, but I'll make a catchup post tomorrow.
I also find the argument against KK very good.
IB, bring your case forward. Maybe you will get the pull to get me lynched. However, you mentioned here:
Quote from IB »
I also find the argument against KK very good.
but yet you are attempting to distract from the KK lynch to push for me. Granted it's a small distraction since I have been in the spotlight for most of toDay, but it's a distraction none the less.
IB, have you ever distracted from a lynch when the lynch was this close to threshold?
I know that IB does not have a completed scum game yet, but his town play is normally bad. Town: Please take into consideration while reading IB. IB has always been a difficult read for me.
I hope we'll have a friendlier interaction this time... I'll do my best not to suspect you on principle After all, I was wrong the last time and I had only null reads from MirrorEntity, anyway.
Later I'll be posting an update on my leans for everyone.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Hi. I'm the new MirrorEntity. I've been following along so my follow up post will come late, but I've been waiting weeks to: vote PSR
Ugh.
unvote
I have a scum read on you, but I'll make a catchup post tomorrow.
I also find the argument against KK very good.
Back tomorrow. <3
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Aw hell. Thought there was going to be a PM response telling me when the game started to my confirmation post. Just got prodded, and going to read over all these posts.
My initial thoughts:
Not sure how this prayer thing works. Some of you seem to be accustomed to it already which makes me feel like I am at a distinct advantage. In a game where I were the only one who would have to pray to get an ability I could toy around with it and get comfortable, but since others already seem to have it down I don't have that luxury. So damn.
But yeah, sorry for being late to the party.
This quote is iPot’s first post from [Mini] Deitriptychos Mafia. You will notice that there is no nervousness in this opening post.
Whoa whoa. One joke vote I can understand. Two in a row? Someone's not joking' no more. What's the problem now?
Now we have these two posts from iPot. The first post is full of nervousness. The second post is an overreaction to having two votes on him. One is an obvious RVS vote while mine is not obvious.
Why would iPot need to worry about one vote that was not RVS? The answer is simple. iPot is likely scum this game.
Terrible meta argument. This is where I, before replacing in, wished I could vote for PSR.
That first post you quoted? I don't even remember that game. Also, it looks like a joke vote. That second post you quoted? I joined the party several pages late. If you go read some more of that game, you'll see that me taking so long to post, as well as other stuff that came up, was the center of quite a bit of drama.
My first post this game? Was just that. A first post. In fact the entire time of the post was meant to imply joking and a light hearted nature. My second post this game was wondering why there were two votes on me so quickly one right after another. Furthermore, any vote on me past the joke one I always take seriously. Especially when no logic is provided in the post.
The vote in first quote post has nothing to do with the information I presented. This is iPot trying to take the nervousness that I mentioned and remove it from the equation.
You joined a game late, but still didn’t show any nervousness in that post. I would think that since you screwed up a little, because you expected a PM when the game started, in that game I would suspect you to be slightly nervous, but you didn’t show that all. It becomes more believable since you mentioned that drama was unfolding in the game when you did arrive.
Your first post this game is chalked full of nervousness. You can claim to be a first post and nothing more if you like, but the way you phrase the post and punctuation marks makes that post read as nervousness.
You got worked up over two votes. One was an obvious RVS vote meaning that you only had one real vote on you. A townie would not worry about one vote being on them.
>A townie would not worry about one vote being on them.
Wat.
Right now I'm incredibly on the fence about voting Phoenix, not only for the awfulness of the voting, but also for the speed of it. The fact that in the next post, Phoenix had this entire argument based off of the meta of a single post in this game seems way to sketchy. I need to see more from Phoenix though first. This seems ridiculously like overeager scum.
@Ipot- How many games have you played on this site?
@Phoenix- Do you not believe that playstyles can differ from game to game?
I'm not really happy about the lack of activity in this game. Stagnation is really bad for town.
Who would be interested in a small mass flavor claim? Not enough to give the scum info on who to target, but enough to lock them down so they can't change flavor depending on what role they want to false-claim.
The theme of this game is an MTG set/storyline, so I'm making the assumption that each player's flavor is that of a named character in the books.
I propose the following 2 pieces of information:
1) Yes or No, does your have a legendary or planeswalker card named after it?
2) Name 1 color of the card.
I'm Thalia, and while I would love to have First Strike and make noncreature spells cost more, I'm a Vanilla Townie. Meh.
My vote was purely RVS, so Unvote
This is so terrible and looks like a scum gambit to me. If scum were provided safe-claims, and one were a goon (vanilla scum), it would be wise of them to run their safe claim out early to gain town credit since "why would I claim VT?" Obviously, if you're town, you know that depriving the entire game of your wagon is extremely anti-town.
@Dexter: nah, you will get quickly used to my honesty (bar insane gambits) while playing Mafia. I don't have any reasons to hide my role being Vanilla.
Oh, and please don't be distracted by my action, that's not my intention. While I'm still divided about what's happening, I will, again, heartfully ask all of you to limit the meta discussion. It is hardly a good argument.
About claiming, no, I see no problem. If scum avoid NK'ing me because I lack a power role, good for us. The best power roles we can possible have are fully funcional brains.
Are you serious? As VT, you want the scum to NK you! You play as townie as possible so that they DON'T target a power role with the NK. The role of a Vanilla Townie is to play as well as possible during the day and hope to be a meat shield at night. -_-
I dont have time to get into a full reply right now, but TDP, you and phoenix seem to be sharing the opinion that
1) a vote means "I am 100% convinced you are scum"
2) a vote should never be cast unless you want that person to be the lynch for the day.
Do you believe those statements are true?
If it were that black and white, then yes I would.
Of course a vote can be used for means other than lynching, but that doesn't come from a town mindset. Townies are going to be focused on finding and lynching scum. Not using their vote as they please.
So, Truk, you should really sum up the case you have against me since your opinion is changing.
Good thing people are analyzing my arguments while going for my lynch huh, PSR and Mao. Alas, perceived arrogance doesn't mean bad reasoning. You can dislike this in-game persona as much as you want, but please don't let it tunnel-vision, disregarding my points.
I am now at L-3. If you really consider a good idea to lynch me before the first 200 posts, with more than two weeks left before the deadline, scum will trainwreck this into a perfect game. Wake up, people.
Unvote: Truk Vote: KosaKosa
So you put KK up to L-2 because Truk is changing his opinion? I'd love to hear the rationale for this one. This looks like a bus. It so much looks like a bus.
What could KK claim at this point that would sway your views? (I wish to hear everyone who is voting KK to answer this)As I see it if he changes his role or elaborates upon it then he will be viewed as a liar and then we lynch him because he can't be trusted. If he claims exactly as he did before then we still dont know if it's true and we lynch him. what is the point of this request of him?
Please explain why you thought you needed to post this content.
In the mean time, I do not want KosaKosa to claim.
I posted the content because I didn't understand what Tetris hoped to gain from this because it seems like he already had a solid and decided case. I wanted to figure out his intentions to better read his alignment. I furthered this thought to wondering the same of everyone. As we now have KK's fullclaim I believe from the points that have been presented he is indeed the summiest player of the day so far. Vote KK
Something about this post strikes me as being off.
Whoa whoa. One joke vote I can understand. Two in a row? Someone's not joking' no more. What's the problem now?
Now we have these two posts from iPot. The first post is full of nervousness. The second post is an overreaction to having two votes on him. One is an obvious RVS vote while mine is not obvious.
Why would iPot need to worry about one vote that was not RVS? The answer is simple. iPot is likely scum this game.
I don't see any nervousness in this post, more like being surprised for two quick votes. This quote from PSR reads as an attempt to paint iPot in a negative light over a very small reason.
Also, you're vote does not read as an RVS vote, but you wait until two posts later to give your reasoning.
Your first post this game is chalked full of nervousness. You can claim to be a first post and nothing more if you like, but the way you phrase the post and punctuation marks makes that post read as nervousness.
You got worked up over two votes. One was an obvious RVS vote meaning that you only had one real vote on you. A townie would not worry about one vote being on them.
Every post has it's reason. Since I saw your first post as nervousness I thought that throwing a reasonless vote on you would cause more of a reaction. Your very next post was an overreaction to a blank vote. As far as you knew the vote had no merit so there would be no reason for you react in such a way.
I hate double negatives. Nothing against you, but they are meaningless and often confuse people. The thing is though, even with the double negative, you still overreacted to the vote.
Just because you overreacted in what you are calling a joking matter doesn't change the fact that still overreacted.
You overreacted again at the end of this post about the double negative.
You're misrepresentation comment is nothing more than ad hom.
You seem to be basing a large portion of this argument on overreaction. Is overreaction strictly a scum tell?
I only brought up my at elsewhere because he did. Also, after looking through basic 21, you may notice that I grossly overreacted to things in that game, to the point that someone had asked that I take a day as a breather from the game.
I didn’t bother to look at the rest of your game since I was only looking for first posts and how they sounded.
The only other thing I noticed from the OP was that you replace out and joboman replaced in for you.
If you are going to pull info from other games and someone then points out behavior in the same game that is similar to behavior in this game, you should read up on it. Have you? I mean, fair is fair, since you've opened this can of worms.
At the time of my posting it was more 50/50. Since others did not have the same read as me I am looking more into the reactions.
iPot’s post is not nothing. There is always a reason behind a post.
You may question the integrity of my reads all you like it doesn’t change anything. This was never intended to be a gambit and is not a gambit.
Since you believe there to be other opinions, then please state them.
You've mentioned in at least two posts that you were looking for reactions and yet you never (that I've seen so far) provided either the reactions or the reads you got from them.
Right now I'm incredibly on the fence about voting Phoenix, not only for the awfulness of the voting, but also for the speed of it. The fact that in the next post, Phoenix had this entire argument based off of the meta of a single post in this game seems way to sketchy. I need to see more from Phoenix though first. This seems ridiculously like overeager scum.
@Phoenix- Do you not believe that playstyles can differ from game to game?
I’ve always been an aggressive player. You just don’t know for reasons.
Of course playstyles can, and more likely, will change from game to game. That doesn’t mean that a change in playstyle should be ignored. It’s a behavioral change.
I agree with Tetris that the fact that you had that argument lined up in your next post, ready to go, is sketchy. Really feels like you were ready to go with it from the beginning.
I never said that iPot as the lynch for the toDay.
I'm having difficulty reconciling these statements. You can argue your way out of that with semantics, but there's a passive-aggressiveness there that's just plain anti-town. Why would you not want to lynch iPot if he's likely scum?
Vote Phoenix Sun Rise
Just because I believe someone to be scum does not mean that player is the lynch for the Day. There is still plenty to discuss before a lynch is decided. For you to believe that the first person voted for outside of RVS would be the lynch is ludicrous. 1
In all the games I have played I don’t ever recall the first non-RVS vote on a player to be the deciding factor for a lynch.
As i said before, either this is a failed gambit or a weak scum tell. I'm not sold that you're scum, but it certainly feels anti-town in some way. You claim it's not a gambit and that from this one post you can tell he is likely scum.
I haven't meta'd anyone in this game, but my understanding is that you've played several games of mafia before, so i have to wonder. Why would you make this move, knowing full well everyone would see it as you jumping on nothing? Is the real point of this gambit to draw the attention all to yourself? It certainly seems to have worked, if that's your goal.
vote Phoenix Sun Rise
Not certain I am scum, but yet you still vote for me.
In other words, you’re pushing a Policy Lynch on me for being anti-town on Day 1. Yeah, that doesn’t fly around here. 3 Unvote Vote Truk
1 and 3 - It's funny that you get upset about having words put in your mouth and then you turn around and do it to not one but two other players.
2. Please elaborate on the "avenue" that you believe is being taken here.
Just because I believe someone to be scum does not mean that player is the lynch for the Day. There is still plenty to discuss before a lynch is decided. For you to believe that the first person voted for outside of RVS would be the lynch is ludicrous.
In all the games I have played I don’t ever recall the first non-RVS vote on a player to be the deciding factor for a lynch.
I now wonder why you would take this avenue...
You're putting words in my mouth and I'm not even sure where you're getting them from. Why would I think that iPot is going to be the lynch Today just because you voted for him?
I may be twisting your words a bit too, though, so let me ask you more directly:
1. Do you think iPot is scum?
2. Do you want to lynch him Today?
3. Do you think Truk is scum?
4. Do you want to lynch him Today?
I'm not sure how I twisted your words with my answer. Just because I view someone as scum does not mean that player will be lynched. The meaning that statement holds is that I find iPot to be scummy. It takes seven players to lynch someone not one player. The town also wasn't seeing iPot's post the same way I did meaning that iPot was not going to be lynched.
1: Yes
2: At the time of my post yes, but my eyes have turned to someone else. iPot is still scummy though.
3: My vote would not be on him if I thought him to be town.
4: More so than iPot.
If you believe both Truk and iPot are scum can you identify any interactions that would show this?
You moved your vote to Truk based on you insuating that he was policy lynching you, but your vote on him amounts to a strongly worded OMGUS vote.
Please explain what you are meaning in this post. Because the answer I just gave you fits the parameters of what you stating here.
How this reads to me is this: "You find iPot to be scummy, but don't want to lynch him. Vote: PSR".
The statements I made have nothing to do with being anti-town or scum or town. The statements I made have to do with how a Mafia game functions.
(Everyone may call me PSR for short)
Earlier you said that there was something behind every post. Now you are stating that there was nothing behind a post, just function. This is a contradiction to suit your need at the time
Please explain what you are meaning in this post. Because the answer I just gave you fits the parameters of what you stating here.
How this reads to me is this: "You find iPot to be scummy, but don't want to lynch him. Vote: PSR".
Let me rephrase that. It's more like "You find iPot to be scummy, but don't want him to be the lynch for the Day. Vote: PSR."
Between your response to MirrorEntity in that post and your response to iPot in post #26 (when you said "I am watching for reactions, but"), it feels like you were trying to back off from your attack on iPot without actually dropping your case on him. Hence me saying "passive-aggressive." Heck, you're not even voting for him anymore -- why would you rather lynch Truk than iPot Today? (I don't think switching your vote is in itself scummy, but it makes me doubt the sincerity of your case on iPot.)
I had no intention to back off of iPot. I wouldn’t even call it an attack. It was more following up on what I found to be suspicious behavior.
The following post is the reason I am voting for Truk:
As i said before, either this is a failed gambit or a weak scum tell. I'm not sold that you're scum, but it certainly feels anti-town in some way. You claim it's not a gambit and that from this one post you can tell he is likely scum.
I haven't meta'd anyone in this game, but my understanding is that you've played several games of mafia before, so i have to wonder. Why would you make this move, knowing full well everyone would see it as you jumping on nothing? Is the real point of this gambit to draw the attention all to yourself? It certainly seems to have worked, if that's your goal.
vote Phoenix Sun Rise
Truk showed the sign of a scum mindset by posting that he does not view me as scum, but yet pushed for my lynch anyway. Basically a Policy Lynch on Day 1 without saying the words. A townie would not push for a Policu Lynch on Day 1. A townie would rather focus on finding scum on Day 1.
Truk is acting like I have been anti-town for the entire game.
When you turned Truk's post into a "policy lynch" scenario, you conveniently bolded what you needed to in order to make it sound that way. I've taken the liberty to bold/underline what you did not.
He didn't call you scum, but he certainly called you anti-town. You spun his comment to say that there is no reasoning behind it, however, he stated that you are acting in an anti-town manner.
if you weren't at L-6, I might have had a harder time voting you.
You are trying to make your vote sound legit with sarcasm. Think about this logically for a second. You claim to believe that I am not scum, but yet would rather Policy Lynch then hunt scum.
When did anyone say that you were not scum? Truk said " I'm not sold that you're scum..." There is a big difference between "You're town but I'm lynching you anyway" and "I'm not sure, but here's a vote."
And this whole policy lynch thing sounds like an overreaction which you claim is a scum tell.
Quote from PSR »
In other words, you’re pushing a Policy Lynch on me for being anti-town on Day 1. Yeah, that doesn’t fly around here.
i'd rather have one dead townie than one that is actively distracting us from scum hunting, potentially causing multiple mislynches. Don't you think that, of the two, that's the better call?
Nevertheless, i have no desire to have you lynched, at least not this early in the day.
do you believe that votes have zero power aside from causing lynches?
I don’t see how I am distracting from the town. I am the most active player here scum hunting more than most players here. Just read the game and see that every player is commenting on what is taking place and noticing the reactions. That is far from distracting the town. It’s rather influencing the town to take a more active approach to the game. The better call would be finding scum rather than barning others to jump onto a bad wagon.
No desire to see me lynched yet you are voting for me… Please make sense of that.
Votes are a powerful tool when used correctly. When used incorrectly they become a hazard to the town. You are using vote to show that you favor a Policy Lynch on me for being a “distraction” from the town and for being "anti-town."
You claim to be scum hunting more than any other player, but you appear to be simply tunneling. You mentioned multiple times that you are looking for reactions, including in this very post, and yet you have never mentioned any reactions besides the initial one from iPot to your naked vote. This is nothing more than you attempting to convince others that you are busy.
OMGUS requires that I vote you without reason. I gave my reasoning on why I voted for you. Please read the Mafia Rules/Guildlines for a better understanding with your terminology.
1. OMGUS is not in the MTGS Mafia Rules/Guidelines
2. Unwarrented Snarkiness
3. The definition according to Epicmafia:
OMGUS stands for "Oh my God! You Suck!"
An OMGUS vote means a player vote another player simply because that player voted him - a vote back.
There is nothing here that states an OMGUS vote requires no reasoning behind it.
I dont have time to get into a full reply right now, but TDP, you and phoenix seem to be sharing the opinion that
1) a vote means "I am 100% convinced you are scum"
2) a vote should never be cast unless you want that person to be the lynch for the day.
Do you believe those statements are true?
If it were that black and white, then yes I would.
Of course a vote can be used for means other than lynching, but that doesn't come from a town mindset. Townies are going to be focused on finding and lynching scum. Not using their vote as they please.
I'd be good with either a Truk lynch or a KosaKosa lynch at this point.
What happened to iPot?
I find this extremely curious as at no point before this have you provided any reasoning on KK and why he is scum, but now you are all of a sudden good with his lynch? This is how a scum tests the water.
Good thing people are analyzing my arguments while going for my lynch huh, PSR and Mao. Alas, perceived arrogance doesn't mean bad reasoning. You can dislike this in-game persona as much as you want, but please don't let it tunnel-vision, disregarding my points.
I am now at L-3. If you really consider a good idea to lynch me before the first 200 posts, with more than two weeks left before the deadline, scum will trainwreck this into a perfect game. Wake up, people.
Unvote: Truk Vote: KosaKosa
And here is where you drop the bomb - You haven't had a thing to say about Kosa all game and now you vote him without explaining why based on just a quote. This is patently worse than Truk's "policy lynch" that you went on and on about.
I also don't like that this set up Tetris to request KK to full claim in his next post. (It's not as big a deal since KK had already claimed)
What could KK claim at this point that would sway your views? (I wish to hear everyone who is voting KK to answer this)As I see it if he changes his role or elaborates upon it then he will be viewed as a liar and then we lynch him because he can't be trusted. If he claims exactly as he did before then we still dont know if it's true and we lynch him. what is the point of this request of him?
Please explain why you thought you needed to post this content.
In the mean time, I do not want KosaKosa to claim.
JD, riddle the idea of Allwin and KK as scum buddies. Tell me your thoughts.
Same for Tetris.
Why haven't you done the same for the two folks that you claimed were scum together (technically 3, but iPot fell off your radar for some reason,which you never come back to)
I'm sick of quoting so in post #191 you FoS HnS, which makes 4 scumspects for you so far or a full 1/3rd of the game. Let me ask you this - who is town in your opinion and why? Vote: PSR
Welcome you be, Eron. It's good to be playing with you again so quickly.
PSR answered your PBPA on him and yet refused to outline his reasons for vote me, dismissing your questions with a hand-wave disguised as an "How can't you see it?" slightly OMGUS.
Vote PSR
Besides him, I'm leaning scum for Allwin, who still hadn't explained all those reasons to find me scummy in his opinion.
@Ipot, MirrorEntity, and Truk-Please tell me why you are not currently voting KK.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia. UNLESS safe claims are a common thing on this site, in which case I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility of his scumness. For the record, this is now the third time I've asked about safe claims. Hoping this one gets a response.
IB, bring your case forward. Maybe you will get the pull to get me lynched. However, you mentioned here:
Quote from IB »
I also find the argument against KK very good.
but yet you are attempting to distract from the KK lynch to push for me. Granted it's a small distraction since I have been in the spotlight for most of toDay, but it's a distraction none the less.
IB, have you ever distracted from a lynch when the lynch was this close to threshold?
I know that IB does not have a completed scum game yet, but his town play is normally bad. Town: Please take into consideration while reading IB. IB has always been a difficult read for me.
Wat.
Distracting from the lynch? By saying I support his lynch but not hammering it? By voting for you because you are my biggER scum read?
I'd love to understand. Please explain how a single post is distracting from the lynch.
I hope we'll have a friendlier interaction this time... I'll do my best not to suspect you on principle After all, I was wrong the last time and I had only null reads from MirrorEntity, anyway.
Later I'll be posting an update on my leans for everyone.
I'm leaning town on you based on meta, mostly. Just don't be scummy this time.
Hopefully this catch-up post doesn't get me speedlynched. /rolleyes
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Random thought: if KK is scum why is he still alive. I'm 99% sure he's at L-1. Surely, the scum would want to limit the conversation that we are having right now. That says to me KK is probably town (that's why he hasn't self hammered) and all the scum are already on his wagon.
It may not have occurred to KK to self-hammer.
Also if scum did not have daytalk such a post would be the only way to hint at KK to do so.
Some players refuse to self-hammer ever. Read a Tordeck scum game for an example of a player that does just that.
Overall this point is Null.
It has occured, I've posted about it. I've cooled my head to not do it, though.
Are you serious? As VT, you want the scum to NK you! You play as townie as possible so that they DON'T target a power role with the NK. The role of a Vanilla Townie is to play as well as possible during the day and hope to be a meat shield at night. -_-
Haven't thought about this. This is my first time being a VT, actually.
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I'm not contesting TMCT since I believe the two of you are scum buddies and are bussing each other on Day 1.
I didn’t find anything where you directly called me scum, but have been scum hunting me which implies that you believe me to be scum. Your thought process was confirmed when you placed your vote on me. Unless you are pushing me for being anti-town which no one has out lined yet. Eron outlined why he thought I was scum.
More later if I have time.
Baiting for reactions is strange...
In general, then yes. But we’re not talking in general. We are talking about a specific point in the game and a specific vote. Please do not change the subject at hand.
You’re not understanding me here…
I would still be happy with a lynch on iPot and my vote would be on him if the town agreed with me.
Since the town doesn’t want to help me in lynching iPot I have to look elsewhere.
My vote has not been anti-town and will not be anti-town. You are twisting what I am saying to fit what you are seeing in your eyes.
It’s called case building. I suggest you give it a try sometime.
I found it surprising that both you, Eron and TMCT tried to bring forward the posts I made about iPot Re: lynch.
There is a difference in seeing someone as scum and lynching that player. One person cannot lynch on they’re own.
I wish that Iso had not touched the acronym page. The OMGUS definition is not listed there anymore.
“Making assumptions that may be not be true” and “I suppose you’re right” do not match up together. Contradicting yourself is rarely a good thing.
@Iso
Tunneling would probably be the closest definition to being correct. I will give you that, but as we know there is a small difference. While I see what you are saying, I will have to disagree, since I haven’t responded to every single posts from the players that I see as scum.
You’re over exaggerating the situation.
I will try to find the definition in the Theory Thread. If not we can discuss it there post game.
I always find it funny when someone comments on my tone when I felt that I had a neutral tone at the time.
Eron, don’t be snarky. It doesn’t look good on you. (I know I have been snarky as well, but I have been nearly my entire life. I’m not so sure about you since I am not you. :p)
Votes can be used for numerous things, but only a few things of those are legit reasons.
A townie should use their vote primarily for applying pressure and lynching scum.
The last thing a townie should be using their vote for is someone who is actually being anti-town. There are other ways to get rid of someone who is anti-town. Lynching them is waste unless they absolutely refuse to correct their behavior and play style, but that is rare.
There are other reasons to vote, but coming up with them on the fly like this is proving to be a difficult task for me.
You must have missed the part that I had a town read on you. After reviewing these responses it’s been lowered to a null read verging on a leaning scum read.
The following posts from JD have helped me gain a town read on him:
That doesn't look like what he said. What it looks like he said(and something I have thought, if not mentioned outright) is that within 20 minutes of my first post you had decided that I was nervous and went and looked at my first post of each game to decide if I appeared nervous in any of those games.
The bolded here seems a little dramatic. You posted a reasonless vote on me in less than half an hour after my first post, right after a person placed a RVS vote on me. I was curious why.
Much like you're twisting what I've done to fit yours much?
And again you try to trivialize his argument. "Case building" and trying to use only the portion of meta that "supports" your argument(I use quotes because I maintain that I was not nervous in my first post) are not the same thing.
This whole "OMGUS MEANS THIS HERE!" argument feels like semantics to me. Who cares what the "official MTGS definition" of it is? Its a term with a general use that, under general guidelines, you happen to fit.
Hi pot. My name is kettle. I heard you've been saying things about me.
So your tone can be misinterpreted by others, but you could not have possibly misinterpreted me. Cool.
Because I don't see the scum motivation of claiming so early such a character that would likely be in this theme of mafia. UNLESS safe claims are a common thing on this site, in which case I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility of his scumness. For the record, this is now the third time I've asked about safe claims. Hoping this one gets a response.
More like "Thanks for the case...In related news, can you expand on your thoughts on KK like you just did with PSR? I still want KK dead." Bear in mind at that point you hadn't announced that you were going to do a PBPA on KK. Now apropos of that case on KK:
How genuine is your read on KK, and how genuine was your case on him? Are you more confident that KK is town, or that PSR is scum?
It's also the fact that you didn't comment on it at all. And that you still haven't.
That's actually a really good question. My read is 100% genuine, I don't believe he is scum. As far as who am I more confident in, I would say that I'm more confident that PSR is scum than KK is town.
A safe claim would be a role that would be expected to be in a particular game based on the theme (in this case, the suspected safe claim of Thalia in an Innistrad game) but actually isn't and is told to a mafia member that they can claim in case of emergency. I've seen mods on other sites give the mafia a bunch of claims to choose from that would help them in a crisis if needed. My problem is that I have no idea if that is a thing that gets done here on any kind of regular basis.
As for the rest of the case on him, I would have to read it with fresh eyes after learning about the site's general use of safe claims or not. Currently my belief is that he is a townie because I can not see the point in making such a claim so early in the game unless he is town or scum with a safe claim trying to slip it by.
I said in post #224 that I agree with the points that had me voting for PSR a week ago. To clarify:
- I don't like PSR's vote on iPot in the early game.
- I don't like PSR using meta that's several years old.
- I don't like what I saw as inconsistency in whether PSR was watching for reactions or not (although PSR has since addressed this to my satisfaction).
- I think PSR's Truk vote was borderline OMGUS (I think I used the phrase "thinly-veiled" originally), and arguing about the exact definition of OMGUS in that case is very semantic.
I disagree with some points after that.
- I don't have a problem with PSR's naked KK vote. The wagon already had a strong case riding on it, but at the same time PSR's vote only put KK to L-2. All that was needed was a /barn.
- I don't have a problem with having more than 3 scum suspects.
So KK's flip notwithstanding, I only have a light scum read on PSR. Nothing even worth pursuing given my case on KK.
I have seen the term false claim thrown around, but I was unaware that it was the same thing as safe claims. This is not the first case of terminology differences I've been caught in over here.
Knowing that, I am more suspicious of his initial claim. Especially when it was so much more than anything that anyone was asking for when asking for a mass claim to begin with. As well as his "I'm an honest guy, honest" type speech. I'm going to go over the thread again and, knowing this, will see if anything sticks out to me specifically.
If he's unexperienced mafia, he could have seen Truk's request as a perfect opportunity to claim town without seeming unwarranted. As I said before, I believe it was a decision made in poor judgement and he's ever since trying to downplay it.
@EtR: No responses for me? :/
I'm on my phone and can't dissect bigger posts. I need to follow up on a few. Probably tomorrow. Unless I get on the PC later.
I believe he said that he has more than a little experience at mafia. I would have to go back and look for a specific quote to be positive though. Something along the lines of "I'm not new, but I'm not a veteran" or something similar.
And again, that was also before I knew that false claims(which I've been referring to as Safe Claims) were something that gets used here as well. Thalia is a high profile character, one that I would not be surprised to see as a role in this game. I would be equally unsurprised to find out Thalia is a mod-given false claim as well. So, again, I am going to go over the thread and looks at the arguments made against him and his responses.
I'm not changing the subject, I'm talking comparitivly. This is what I feel is you pushing things in a negative light that aren't always that way.
Pot - Kettle - Grumble grumble.
I'm working on it.
That is not a contradiction.
You don't need to respond to each and every post to hone in on someone. The feel that I get is that you are pushing until you see the town didn't get behind it and then abandoned the wagon for a different one.
I typically am extremely sarcastic. I tone it down here because I don't really know you guys.
That being said the underlined portion is what you were trying to push the whole policy lynch bit on. So you feel that a townie can use there vote for pushing a policy lynch, yet you voted Truk(?) for doing the same.
What part of my responses would cause you to change your mind?
Also - you agree that TMCT did hand wave what I put together. Do you believe that a scum would hand wave a case on a townie? Especially when the current leading wagon is supposedly on a scum?
And if he flips town?
Maokun response coming up soon.
I see everyone as having a chance at being scum. There is always a possibility. The probabilities change with new evidence but for now I'm giving someone like Kosa a 40-50% scum chance and someone like PSR or Truk 50-60%. I'm not wholly convinced by any argument so far one way or another, I'm still collecting reads.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
The problem with KK is that is he hasnt done anything that is pro-town. he claimed and then tried to down play it.
I haven't seen any convincing scum hunting from him, its all thinly veiled deflection.
This post reads as fencesitting.
Percentages aside, are you leaning scum or town on the people you mention in your post.
It may not have occurred to KK to self-hammer.
Also if scum did not have daytalk such a post would be the only way to hint at KK to do so.
Some players refuse to self-hammer ever. Read a Tordeck scum game for an example of a player that does just that.
Overall this point is Null.
Part of it is from an ongoing game.
Please outline why it is a blunder as opposed to a VT not caring. Again - it's not a play that I would do, or do I recommend for anyone else, but I don't think it was scum motivated.
I agree that it can be read that way, I'm just not reading it that way.
I'm not saying it is a townslip - it definitely isn't. What I'm saying is that I'm not reading it as a scum. Scum aren't concerned with the NK since they control it.
Please use "Experienced" in the loosest of terms. I've played about 10 games and I'm still pretty awful. I can tell you 2 things here: 1)I'm convinced of PSR's scumminess. 2) I'm pretty sure that KK is town.
Town/town and scum/town are the only alignment possibilities. When stating scum/town vs town/scum, I mean the same thing one is scum and one is town. I'm not implying one or the other. Basically insert either player into the scum slot and the other into the town slot. I think it's clear who I think is what, but that isn't what I was trying to say here.
Yes, you can disagree with someone and still feel like they are coming from a town mindset.
Fair enough.
I skipped a few. The ones about font styles and random jabber that I had no comment on. I also never called it a PBPA so the expectation should not have been that every post was inlcuded.
No not proof, but in my opinion, town seem to get frustrated more often whereas scum try and keep a level, logical head.
Fair enough. Again, I didn't expect to change the minds of 6 people, but I wanted my opinion out there.
Phoenix Sun Rise (4) Truk, HammerAndSickled, EtR, Kosakosa
KosaKosa (6) jdisawesomesauce, MzztrTetris, The Most Curious Thing, Maokun, Phoenix Sun Rise, Allwinapprentice
Not voting: iPot, MirrorEntity.
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch. First lynch threshold reduction or LTR for short is on December 20, or 9 days from today.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
As I told Eron. Post game I will answer the question, but feel free to PM your question.
I will responds to Eron and iPot when I have more free time. SHould be later tonight.
Please prod Truk and Allwinapprentice. They haven't posted in a week.
@MirrorEntity
Do you at least have time to post your reads on KK and PSR?
@iPot
Do you not have a strong enough scum read on either KK or PSR to vote them? Post #247 looks like you have strong enough a read on PSR to vote him.
I had actually wanted to vote PSR a long while back, but was unaware of how many votes were on him at the time. And then by the time I WAS aware of his vote count, I think he was close to lynching. Since then votes have been coming off of him, and I just haven't bothered to make a vote since I don't see the point in doing so yet. We have plenty of time left in the phase for discussion, which from what I've experienced is never a bad thing.
TLDR: I'll vote him, just in my own time basically.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
There's been an unexpected death in the family and I just don't have it in me to argue with strangers on the internet.
I'll keep an eye on the game and see you in the post-game discussion.
Least Scummy
AWA
TMCT
ETR
JDAwe
MTetris
Maokun
HnS
Mirror Entity
IPot
Truk
PSR
KK
Most Scummy
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Some reasoning for your most and least scummy would be great. Not the whole list but maybe bottom and top 3?
Sorry to hear about your loss Truk. I'll be keeping you and your family in my thoughts. Hope you can come back soon.
There's no point in doing the town end of the list, the game is about scumhunting not townhunting.
Providing reasons for why someone is town is pointless unless that person is at risk of being lynched. Otherwise it just helps scum pick off towny players.
I can't find any redeeming features of his play. From looking over it, I see the out-of-nowhere full claim when the only thing asked for was a soft/partial claim. And then a bunch of him saying "I'm an honest person, honest." It looked more like "new player" to me than anything at first, but knowing now about safe claims being a thing here, I'm thinking otherwise.
It was really only the last 24-36 hours that went slowly. Otherwise we've had a lot of discussion.
Of course. With there being a huge deadline increase there is no reason to rush the day phase closed.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
EDIT: All players that haven't posted since the 13th have been prodded (Kosakosa, HammerAndSickled, Maokun, The Most Curious Thing).
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Thanks everyone!
What's wrong with IB?
Hi. I'm the new MirrorEntity. I've been following along so my follow up post will come late, but I've been waiting weeks to: vote PSR
Ugh.
unvote
I have a scum read on you, but I'll make a catchup post tomorrow.
I also find the argument against KK very good.
Back tomorrow. <3
You both actually know who I am.
IB, bring your case forward. Maybe you will get the pull to get me lynched. However, you mentioned here:
but yet you are attempting to distract from the KK lynch to push for me. Granted it's a small distraction since I have been in the spotlight for most of toDay, but it's a distraction none the less.
IB, have you ever distracted from a lynch when the lynch was this close to threshold?
I know that IB does not have a completed scum game yet, but his town play is normally bad. Town: Please take into consideration while reading IB. IB has always been a difficult read for me.
I hope we'll have a friendlier interaction this time... I'll do my best not to suspect you on principle After all, I was wrong the last time and I had only null reads from MirrorEntity, anyway.
Later I'll be posting an update on my leans for everyone.
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I was reading and then mis clicked, im currently away from home, back in two days. I probably wont post again until im home, I hate this app
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I hate this vote. So much. No reasoning, no context, and it quickly follows an RVS vote. I hate it.
Terrible meta argument. This is where I, before replacing in, wished I could vote for PSR.
>A townie would not worry about one vote being on them.
Wat.
Hi town-Tezz! <3
Not a fan of softclaims.
This is so terrible and looks like a scum gambit to me. If scum were provided safe-claims, and one were a goon (vanilla scum), it would be wise of them to run their safe claim out early to gain town credit since "why would I claim VT?" Obviously, if you're town, you know that depriving the entire game of your wagon is extremely anti-town.
Emphasis mine. This tastes so scummy.
Hi, town Eron. <3
Wat.
Distracting from the lynch? By saying I support his lynch but not hammering it? By voting for you because you are my biggER scum read?
I'd love to understand. Please explain how a single post is distracting from the lynch.
I'm leaning town on you based on meta, mostly. Just don't be scummy this time.
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It has occured, I've posted about it. I've cooled my head to not do it, though.
Haven't thought about this. This is my first time being a VT, actually.