I made a mistake there. I telegraphed my night targets with my T/S lists. I should've removed Wessel and KCC from the last one. I hid my breadcrumb too well
87th of Hunter’s Moon, Ava. 719
This sword is a most unnatural object. I have covered it in a swatch of leather so that there will be no possibility of accidental contact. The times that I have touched its surface, it felt warm and alive, pulsing with evil energies.
I had the presence of mind to confiscate some of its papers that lay spread out on the table. I knelt in prayer, thanking Avacyn for my victory at this quest, and then walked out as easily as I walked in. I do not pretend to understand these creatures, nor their enigmatic motives, but clearly I have been allowed entry into this realm, and I was allowed out.
On my way back a crippled, unarmed vampire called Thatu intercepted me and explained his lord Sorin was trying to protect Innistrad from the threat of the werewolves. And asked for the sword in our possession, he explained he as the original owner of it and he gave it to Sorin to aid his fight against the werewolves, apparently the sword is named The Bloodletter. Flesh split by this blade never ceases to bleed, even after death. If that's true it makes sense for vampires to want this sword so badly.
He told us that the week before werewolves made a surprise attack on Sorin's castle and slaughtered everyone, him being the only survivor. Pitre told me he did not believe this vampire story at all but after Thatu revealed the werewolves next step was a full attack on Thraben I didn't want to take any chances so we arrested him and rushed back.
Raben
101st of Hunter’s Moon, 719.
Time is not measured by days, but by who we were when it passed us.
I write these words yet I do not know why. What is the purpose? All that I know has been an illusion, I have built my house on a pile of stinging salt.
Is this real? They say the dead dream too. Perhaps I am dreaming.
If I am dead, then I am haunting these pages with the truth. If I am alive, the truth will haunt me forever.
Where to begin? We arrived in Thraben yesterday, and I bade Thatu to wait in the narthex while I gave Jofridus the sword. How strange it is to write his name now.
He touched my brow in blessing, then took the cursed sword and set it on his desk. I then told him I had far worse news, and that he should hear it from a witness. I called Thatu into Jofridus’ chamber.
Those were the last minutes of my former life.
He walked through the door, and from the look on his face, I knew that something was terribly wrong. “YOU!” he shouted, and before I could react, he lunged across the room at Jofridus.
I expected him to be surprised at this sudden attack, but he looked completely unshaken, as if he expected it.
“I saw you kill my brethren in the castle!” Thatu was shaking with anger, as he took Jofridus by the shoulders and began shaking him. To my astonishment, Jofridus grasped him by the throat and threw her to the ground as if she was made of paper. How could such an old man display such strength? I would soon find out.
I made a step to intervene, but it was a step too late. Thatu jumped back up and charged him. Jofridus calmly removed the sword from its leather wrappings, and thrust it through his belly.
I still do not know if the scream I heard was his or mine.
I will not write anymore tonight. I would pray, but I’ve wasted enough breath.
101th of Hunter’s Moon, 719
After he murdered Thatu, Jofridus turned to me with a fervor I had never seen before burning in his eyes. I was stunned into silence, a shame I carry still. Pitre and Skaharra were the only ones that remained at my side, Pitre completely astonished by what was happening.
My world was slowly shifting under my feet, I felt as if I could not stand. My face was wet with tears, and yet a smoldering anger was welling up inside of me. Jofridus could see it in my face, and he made a move to step between me and Thatu’s crumpled body.
He was just a vampire, he said, let's kill this Thatcher with you and we can put all the blame on him, and you can join me. You can fight for Avacyn for a millennia, for eternity, he said. He peeled back his vestments to reveal a twisted metal yoke that had burned its way into the flesh around his neck and chest. I have one for you, he said, all you have to do is take it. Take it and live forever.
Living for an eternity suddenly seemed like a damnable chore.
No words could find their way across my lips. I simply turned my back on him. He shouted for his guards, and declared us heretics. He said he had proof that I had been worshipping demons underneath the cathedral. It was this final act of betrayal that left no doubt in my mind that the man I had thought of as my father all these years – the man that had pulled me from the dirt and gave me this life – that man was dead. In his place was this thing in front of me.
I realized that there could be no proving my case in Thraben. The cathedral that I had been named after would be a prison if I was to stay. I had no choice but to fight.
I looked at Pitre and he told me he would fight to the end, poor boy, he was just a novice, so young and yet I had involved him in this chaotic situation... Skaharra just nodded in silence.
I thanked both of them from the bottom of my heart and we prepared our weapons.
Jofridus was quick to escape with the Bloodletter, there was no arguing with my previous comrades, but I tried to not mortally wound anyone, they were all my friends after all. The battle was kinda even because no one really wanted to fight and reached a stalemate of sorts until reinforcements came, but considering their numbers I knew we couldn’t resist forever. In the end Pitre died fighting despite me trying the hardest to defend him as much as I can, Skaharra surrendered instantly after that, and right before I would die fightning we heard a thunderous blast. Everyone stood frozen while the screams and the noise of battle started outside, we were under attack, "probably the werewolves" I thought to myself.
Then both the Lunarch and a man I didn't know arrived and inquired what was happening, the soldiers told them Jofridus' story and they looked at us with inquisitive eyes. Before I could articulate a defense another blast echoed and the man with the Lunarch ordered the soldiers to let me and defend the city, the soldiers stood there reluctantly until Mikaeus confirmed the order.
Apparently the man had a lot of authority towards Mikaeus because the Lunarch stood in silence while we told him the truth. He introduced himself as Geralf, a friend of the church and apparently he fully believed in me. We were brought to Mikaeus room, and the lunarch explained me that Jofridus probably was hiding in the inners chambers and that he already suspected the church was corrupted with demon worshippers, we were healed and rested a bit to catch our breath.
If there is an Avacyn, may she guide us to justice.
Raben
My hands are cold, and I find writing to be more difficult, but I must chronicle my meeting with Jofridus.
He was alone, and apparently expecting my party. The sword was nowhere in sight, although I would be reunited with it soon enough.
“I knew you would return, my son. I have been preparing for it.”
My anger had reached its boiling point. Calling me his son had ignited a fury inside me, and I drew my sword and charged him. Nothing could stop me now, no force could keep me from my purpose – none save a familiar voice uttering a single word.
“Traitor”
When I turned back I saw the body of the Lunarch falling into the ground, Skaharra was laughting with a bloodied dagger in hand. I screamed in anger while Gerald tackled her into the ground, but he was punched away by a hulking werewolf. Skaharra has herself turned into a werewolf!
Skaharra stood up between me and Jofridus. "Sorry, it's nothing personal but I have to kill you".
Jofridus’ revenge had backfired. All this profanity had given me a strength I had never known. For better or for worse, I was not the Raben he had last seen.
I swore an oath as I charged the thing, and it parried my blow with a sword of its own – the Bloodletter. The last time I met this cursed bit of metal in battle, I had to change my tactics in order to avoid its eternal wound. This time, I had no such misgivings. There is nothing quite as powerful as having nothing to lose.
My attack was a thunderstorm of swinging blades as I took all the anger over Jofridus’ betrayal, and focused every ounce of it on my silver sword. The thing fought like a snake, darting and weaving, but no amount of agility would keep me from my purpose. The sound of my heartbeat was throbbing in my ears as I let out a battle cry and pounced on the vile creature, driving my blade through its chest and into the stone underneath it.
It let out a shrill cry, and began to twitch and writhe as it slowly turned back into Skaharra’s body. Its head jerked up and locked eyes with me. As her last breath escaped her lungs, I heard her say it.
“You mad bro?”
I stood up, near-exhausted. My heartbeat was louder than ever, and I realized it was due to the cuts I had received from the cursed blade. I looked down and saw each one pulse with every beat of my heart, pumping forth blood. I began to feel dizzy, but then I remembered why I was there: Jofridus.
I saw the Bloodletter lying next to her, and in one swift motion I took it by its grip and confronted the man who had taken everything from me.
For his part, he hid his fear well. He clearly had not expected me to survive my encounter with the werewolf. He pulled the neck of his robe open to reveal the yoke and said “You can’t kill me, boy. Not even the Bloodletter can harm me now. Consider the position you are in and put that thing down!”
“Then you will not mind if I test it out!” And with that, I lunged. He jumped back, avoiding my blow but exposing his lie; the Bloodletter would do just fine.
My strength was slowly leaking out onto the floor, so I had little time. The butcher’s bill of his crimes was due, and I would be the cost. I found new strength in his deception, and lunged at his frail form. At first I had thought the blade had only pierced some folds in his robes, as there was not the familiar resistance that normally accompanies flesh. But his halted scream confirmed that the Bloodletter had taken another victim.
He fell backwards, sliding off the blade and onto the stone floor of the chamber. Coughing up blood, he looked up at me and tried to speak.
“I have no need of your lies any longer.” With that, I swung the blade and decapitated his pathetic form.
Drunk with blood loss, I stumbled to the floor next to him, my blood mingling with his in pools around us. I was quite ready to die there, quite ready for my story to end and perhaps to see my friends once more.
That is when I saw the yoke. With each heartbeat, it called out to me. Each one, like the last ticks of a clock, chiseled away at my thoughts. I looked at Mikaeus’, Geralf and Skaharra sad remains. I thought of Pitre’s brave sacrifice in the cathedral above me.
I knew then what I must do. Everyone would receive the blessed sleep, and all it would cost me was my eternal soul.
I reached over to Jofridus’ headless corpse, dug my fingers into his chest around the yoke, and tore it off. I used the last ounce of my strength to place it around my neck, and gasped as the unholy metal knitted and melted into my own flesh. My heartbeat slowed to a stop, and so too the bleeding. I writhed in agony as each wound closed itself up.
I was something different now.
So this book, once a place I went to for enlightenment, now becomes my epitaph. For whatever the case, whether I am evil or whether I am a coward, Raben is no more. Perhaps he never existed in the first place. Maybe he was merely something to comfort me in my blindness.
I shall write no more. There are others whose bills are due.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
iPot/Shark, you are: Pitre, the Thatcher– [Town Vanilla]
You have killed a vampire, and for this your little village proclaims you a hero. However, you know that it is not true: Even though you would love to believe that you actually killed a vampire lord, the vampire you killed was a little whelp. It was so fragile it doesn't even count. The problem with this is that the village elder pushed you to go on to fight other monstrosities and in a moment of courage you have vowed for your peers that you will dedicate your life to it, deep in your heart you know you are not fit for this, but you will try your hardest. As much as you would love to marry Lorelei and have a nice, quiet life, you know you won't be accepted until you have proven yourself, so you decided to travel to Thraben to improve your fighting skills.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
Quote from DRey »
The Dark Passenger/Eron, you are: Thatu Reineger, vampire lord – [Town Vanilla]
You are not much of a fighter, more of a skillful negotiator. You need the blood of humans to survive, but being trapped in this city makes it really hard to suck some human blood without drawing attention. Thankfully, there are other vampires living rogue inside of Thraben as well and you able to get some blood on the black market. Recently you have managed to acquire a powerful magical sword named the Bloodletter, and hopefully it will be enough to ensure your protection in those troubled times, one can dream...
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
Quote from DRey »
Phoenix Sun Rise, you are: Mikaeus, the Lunarch – [Town Innocent one]
You are the only one who knows the sad truth. Avacyn is imprisoned in the Helvault, and she’s not coming back anytime soon, if ever. Nonetheless, you have a duty to comply and you will do it until the bitter end: give hope and protect the people. You may not win this war, but you will die trying. Glory to Avacyn!
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. As everybody knows, you are the head priest of Innistrad and for you to be hung at the Gallows at Willow Hill is inconceivable. If you would be lynched, instead the moderator confirms you as town, no lynch happens, and the game goes into Night. It would really be silly after all - you're the direct link to Avacyn... at least that’s what they think.
Quote from DRey »
Truk, you are: Geralf, necromancer of the moors – [Town Vanilla]
Quote from Letter »
My dear Gisa,
Must you always cheat?
We AGREED on rules of conduct. The Five Laws of NecroWarfare:
1. No spontaneous awakenings.
2. No luring, killing, and raising of bystanders or livestock.
3. Combatants face off at a predetermined place and time.
4. Combatants must have at least three limbs to play.
5. Headquarters are off limits.
You cannot raise ghouls mid battle! You must send your army to meet me
in the valley. Do not flank me! Do not sneak up behind me!
Legless torsos do not count as soldiers. My skaabs have teeth marks
all over their legs from your draggy little meat sacks. Oh, I want my
sextant back. And do not come into my laboratory again!
You signed in blood. So it counts.
Geralf
56th of New Moon, Ava. 717
Ah, the good old days. As you try to get to sleep in this small, creaky house, you shuffle around and think. It was nice when you played those "games" with Gisa. It was all fun, you think, and besides, no one got hurt. Now that you moved to Thraben you feel all alone and bored. If only something happened in this Avacyn forsaken place.
You cannot completely return to human form, therefore, people's reactions to you are full of fear and disdain as they see your half-human, half-wolf body, forcing you to go incognito most of the time. Heck you are feared even amongst the werewolves because of your aggressivity. No matter, Ulrich trusts you and that’s all that matters. You could even kill that whore Skaharra in the blink of an eye if he demanded it... actually you want to kill her at all costs and you are just trying to find an excuse.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. On a full moon night (represented by odd Nights in the game), you may take your pack in to ravage a house, roleblocking the hapless person inside and preventing them from doing anything.
Such a beautiful woman... yet so deadly. Because of your looks, you can gather lots of useful information from the humans while infiltrating their puny village; after all, the little toys are so easy to manipulate and so fragile. Can't you believe that you were one once? But you want more, and you know Ulrich favors you from than stupid Tovolar, because you have some “tools” at your disposal that he doesn't.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. In a waning moon night (represented by even Night in the game), you may go into a house to seduce their inhabitants, roleblocking the hapless person inside and preventing them from doing anything “more” that night.
You guys now that Gisa, ghoulcaller of the moors – [Town Vanilla] is not of this world anymore you also know that:
1. Ged, you are: Garruk, the Relentless – [Town Super Saint]
That damned Liliana has cursed you, and the curse grows stronger by the moment. Your powers are starting to wane and your life is constantly in danger because of that. But you are a hunter and you know you will die soon due to the curse, so you will die fighting. But for now you need to rest, so you decide to stay a bit in this calm village before resuming your hunt.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. When you are lynched, using your last strength to quickly ravage the person who placed the last vote on you, killing them in while you die.
Commentary next, I'm tired.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I'm really not happy about how that is being handled. -Surprise lynches from bad vote counts is just... not okay.
I know this feeling, however let's put things into a dif perspective.
a)In mylo the scum job is to make 2 townies to place their vote wrong, then coordinate a quickhammer, the scum managed to achieve both goals perfectly don't you agree?. Considering that if I had backtracked Eron's vote because of the wrong VC, do you think it would be fair to the scumteam after Shark, IB and Kank "confession"?
b)When Proph posted the wrong VT, Shark was already lynched, the wrong VC had no impact in that.
While in a vacuum I agree wrong VC are terrible customer service, I don't think it had any impact here (thankfully!), don't you agree? Notice this is not an excuse, we did it wrong, and I deeply apologize for this, a mistake is a mistake.
What I don't like is that nowhere has it ever been said when exactly the LTR would come into place. I thought it was the end of the 12th, but apparently it was the start of the 12th (which was only said AFAIK six hours before).
Again I apologize, the LTR should be at midnight as all the previous ones. The fact that I live so far (and the fact that none of the American time zones work here) made it hard for Proph to properly adjust it. Fortunately again we lucked out and it didn't have any impact, as both you and Eron misvoted before the LTR kicked in (and Proph posted the wrong VC).
I'm conflicted on the LTR system. As long as deadlines are more explicit, the final version isn't all that bad.
Actually my vision was the we needed a lot of warnings of the LTR(in fact I think it should be always like this, deadlines being reminded all the time), unfortunately I was away for a whole weekend judging a GP and I didn't remind Proph to pay extra attention to this.
Anyway, I want feedback about this, the LTR is my creation and I want to know how you guys felt about this, did you feel oppresed by it? Did you think this mechanic is more or less enjoyable than hard deadlines? (both no-lynch deadlines and biggest wagon lynch deadlines), do you think latest version is better or worse than earlier ones? Given a choice would you prefer to play with LTR again or the usual deadlines?
I will let this at the discretion of the mentees and mentors. BTW a big thanks to all our mentors and mentees I worked very hard to make the experience enjoyable for everyone particularly for the newbies and I actively hunted the best guys to mentor here and I think I broke a new record here in quantity of mentors. Unfortunately my work wasn't enough and we ended up with such a high number of replacements.
Anyway, a round of applause for GDan, Iso, Wheat, ZDS, TCM, KJ and Voxx!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
After the disastrous effects of yesterday, the cathars were beginning to interrogate newcomers and foreigners to the city. The ghastly body of Wessel orders a mandatory investigation of everybody that came to the city in the last six months. Eventually, all of the newcomers turn up, but some resist - even violently. MTG~DDS is pushing awaythe two cathars that came in his house. "You can't interrogate me," he yells. "I didn't do anything!" Rhand suddenly shows up at MTG~DDS's house, armed with a sharpened pitchfork. "Go out. Now." MTG~DDS is ready to pull out some weapons as well, but he reconsiders for a few seconds and decides to cooperate.
Back out at the city square, a lively scene is occurring. Humans are holding up torches and chanting prayers to Avacyn. Wessel nods quietly to his top advisers. "So, we have everybody here, correct?" MTG~DDS is shoving his way into the crowd of newcomers, while the citizens of Thraben gather around in a circle around them. Wessel clears his throat. "I understand that I am not the holy figure that everybody reveres, but I still have conscience and volition. Even though my outer shell is more grotesque, be rest assured that I am the same person inside."
Wessel continues to speak. "My best cathars have told me that one of the culprits is one of these... immigrants, who have traveled to the safety of Thraben's walls from other provinces. Now that we have narrowed down the number of suspects significantly, we have a good chance at catching these dissidents, whoever they are." Suddenly, TMCT interrupts. "I know this guy! Isn't he the one who had that hunch against Kosakosa?" TMCT points an accusatory finger at MTG~DDS. "Maybe you're a "public figure" for this assassination group, but you've lead us to the death of Kosakosa, and I intend for you not to get away with that."
TMCT holds his own torch up in the air. "Who agrees with me?" a number of torches are raised, but not enough to reach a majority. "I understand that MTG~DDS can be a bit stubborn sometimes, but I don't think that he's part of this. He's worked with me for a while and I would not believe that he could have malicious motives," SharkFinnigan responds. A number of citizens hold up their torches in support of SharkFinnigan's rebuttal, roughly equal to the number of people who believe MTG~DDS as the culprit. As they continue arguing, a young, headstrong person named infectiousbaloth decides to share his opinions.
infectiousbaloth holds his torch up in the air and yells. "I'm not exactly sure if this is evidence or not, but I couldn't sleep last night and opened up the door and took a walk outside to refresh my brain of what was happening recently."
"You disobeyed the curfew?!" Wessel tries to yell, but only a soft croak comes out. infectiousbaloth puts out a hand. "I know that is grounds for disciplinary action, but I was feeling really sick last night and I needed this break."
"Anyways, back to the main topic. I was hearing some sort of moaning outside, and I was looking around. I became frightened and closed my door quietly. I'm not sure if that is conclusive evidence, but I feel as if it's enough for us to go on."
Wessel immediately questions the suspects. "Which one of you lives near infectiousbaloth's house?" When no one raises their hand, Wessel orders an cathar investigation of infectiousbaloth's neighborhood. Within a half hour some of them come back and present Wessel with a list of people who live close to infectiousbaloth. However, one name stands out.
"Is someone named Maokun in the crowd?" Maokun slowly raises his hand and replies inquisitively. "Do you think I'm the culprit?" Wessel initially ignores him at first, but soon addresses him. "You're the only one who's new and lives near infectiousbaloth. The evidence points to you."
"Well, I guess that's settled, then." infectiousbaloth raises his torch. "Who thinks Maokun is the one who did it?" A clear majority raises their hand, including Wessel himself. "What? You're only suspecting me because I live near infectiousbaloth?! And you haven't even proven that infectiousbaloth is telling the truth!"
Wessel makes a sweeping hand motion. "A number of people silently confirmed to me that they heard something last night. I can confirm that infectiousbaloth is not lying." Wessel raises his short voice again. "Every immigrant may leave except Maokun." As all of the newcomers leave the city square, most of the citizens are raising their torches and step closer toward Maokun. "What? What are you trying to do?"
Maokun is dead. He was Ulrich – [Mafia Vanilla Cop]
Anyway, I want feedback about this, the LTR is my creation and I want to know how you guys felt about this, did you feel oppresed by it? Did you think this mechanic is more or less enjoyable than hard deadlines? (both no-lynch deadlines and biggest wagon lynch deadlines), do you think latest version is better or worse than earlier ones? Given a choice would you prefer to play with LTR again or the usual deadlines?
The earlier LTR's were bad, especially the Day 1 version. The latest one was fine, but I don't think it was a significant improvement over hard deadlines. In any case, I especially don't think fancy deadline systems like this really belong in a basic game, which should be more... basic.
@Drey - For me, this was one of the, if not the most fun I've had in a basic so far. Flavorful, well moderated (with one exception) and you all did a hell of a job making sure the replacements didn't become an issue. Thanks for reaching out.
For the LTR - I would need to see it fleshed out again. It felt inconsistent. The first one was jarring. The idea is good though.
Good work with the flavor. The one qualm is the final vote count, but 1) I don't think there was a way to correct it and 2) it was two town votes on there first.
Overall, I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Marvelous flavor, kudos to all parties involved. Despite all the replacements and suspensions I think both teams were in it to win it here.
I'm fine with people seeing mine/Rhand's mentor thread if he's ok with it. It's not up to snuff with ZDS' ventures, but I thought it was decent enough. Rhand didn't need it all too badly.
I love the lore, thanks for that
And for having me as a replacement, I enjoyed this enormously and learned a lot.
I'm ok with my mentorchats made public. Meta-players will love it
As for the LTR: it seemed that it helped town in the early game and scum in the late game. I lack the experience to compare it to the existing systems.
As for the LTR: it seemed that it helped town in the early game and scum in the late game.
I'm actually going to second this, except that I also think the earlier LTR was incredibly annoying. -This just reminded me of something that I wrote off immediately at the start of the last Day, that would have won the town the game if we had a real deadline rather than the LTR's.
Ftr, I am PSR. And my entire play (based on the role given to me) for Day 1 was a huge gambit to generate as many reactions as I could while getting lynched to be confirmed Town.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Tmct: near the end of day 1 you were willing to lynch me without me claiming.
That convinced me you were scum.
Because I want to learn: how is that a town mentality?
Tmct: near the end of day 1 you were willing to lynch me without me claiming.
That convinced me you were scum.
Because I want to learn: how is that a town mentality?
It probably isn't, but I'm not the best person to ask that
After a few LTRs I didn't want players to just claim at L-2, and I didn't think there was enough support to lynch you. If enough players to lynch you had said "we want Rhand to claim," I may have been fine with seeing your claim before lynching you. The LTR may have had a bigger impact on my mindset than I was letting on.
The way I handled that was definitely a mistake, though.
It depends on if WG would have been more careful with his vote if he understood where the VC stood.
By WG I suppose you meant Wessel correct? but you missed the fact Wessel voted wrongly before Proph posted the wrong VC! Therefore the wrong VC cannot be blamed for Wessel bad vote, he was not wrongly informed.
The earlier LTR's were bad, especially the Day 1 version. The latest one was fine, but I don't think it was a significant improvement over hard deadlines. In any case, I especially don't think fancy deadline systems like this really belong in a basic game, which should be more... basic.
Do you think the LTR is overly complicated? I think you may be making the common mistake that assuming that just because the way things were always done since the ancient times it means that's the simpler way. Let me give you an magic related example, when magic started there was the concept of "mana burn", that's how it was done since the very beggining and when mana burn was removed from the rules, a lot of players were angry because "it made sense", it "was flavorful", "it was not complex at all". But the cold hard reality is that mana burn was just yet another concept that players needed to be taught in an already high-complex game, that rarely mattered, it was just clutter. I don't think LTR is complex and if we had starting playing mafia from the very beggining with it, and were presented with the hard deadlines we use today, they would be considered "non-basic material".
I'm actually going to second this, except that I also think the earlier LTR was incredibly annoying. -This just reminded me of something that I wrote off immediately at the start of the last Day, that would have won the town the game if we had a real deadline rather than the LTR's.
You are not being fair here, let me give you facts.
a)Deadline was never reached, so I don't think you can blame the LTR for the town loss.
b)Town always had the no-lynch possibility, and town (correctly) refused it. LTR did not have a part in this.
c)There are two types of hard deadline, the no-lynch one and the lynch biggest wagon one, I believe you are assuming that if it was a no-lynch one and it was reached town would have correctly lynched Kank and IB in a row, don't you think that's a huge leap of logic?Just because you have caught the scumteam it doesn't meant the rest of the town had. I could totally see you being NKed and Wessel and Eron mislynching Shark the next day for example.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Now the commentary on the players and the MVP's awards.
iPot/Shark
I've noticed that in our forums there are "correct" ways of playing town or scum, and when one deviate from the common paths they are usually branded as scummy and mislynched again and again, until they "fix their ways" or their metas develop and people assume that guy is always scummy and stop lynching him despite this fact. I'm saying this because I think both iPot and Shark share a lot of similarities, they both have played in other sites where the "tells" are completely different from here and both have a playstyle considered inherently scummy for many (me included :p). I think iPot just wasn't lynched early is because both JD and KCC has experience with this "scummy" play so the pressure was lower (and scum were trying to mislynch Rhand and DDS because they looked easier). When JD was killed iPot lost a strong supporter and his lurky, vote-shy nature made him a mislynch waiting to happen, therefore when his computer was fried and he had to be replaced out, Shark was in a bad spot from the start, and Shark didn't improve very much from there on, he had quite a few posts that made both the spectator group and the townies in an uproar, "OMG, SHark is so scum", "has he just confessed to be scum? really?", "Ok, now we know Shark is scum, we just have to determine his buddy". In the end it was not a huge surprise he ended being mislynched in the end(however I expected him to go after Kank, that was obvscum). On a positive light I think Shark just discovered a new scumtell, from a town perspective, CCing a scum, just confirms then as town, so when Kank started the day (MYLO) with a defeatist tone of "ok, you can mislynch me now, I don't care, you will see I'm Garruk" it should have raised a lot of red alerts. It made no sense. In the end Shark difficulty in properly explaining his reasons and creating simple and to-the-point case meant only veteran KCC noticed the truth of his words. Considering the late appearance and his precarious position I think Shark did a good enough job, it certainly surprised me.
Eron
Eron started very strongly, he was heavily considered to be the first NK because of the way he latched into Maokun and didn't let off. Mao didn't expect to live much longer if Eron kept pressuring him so strongly but in the end, Eron got "tamed". I don't know the reasons, but the more game passed the less and less Eron scumhunted and did something noteworthy. In fact I believed he was not enjoying the game very much, so I was kinda surprised when he said the opposite, so I don't know what happened. Maybe real life or he was playing in too many games at the same time, dunno. In the end I didn't like Eron showing in this particular game, in the end despite his strong start he dropped the ball and both: didn't even try to reread the game in mylo; cast a vote early in the day without said rereading.
Wessel
Wessel, ah Wessel. It's not a secret that I believe him to be a very strong player, when he joined the game in that particular role (unlikely to be neither Nked and unlynchable) I expected town to sweep the scum. Because against a team of KCC (as VT to boot) , TMCT(has turned into a strong player already), Rand (newbie extraordinaire, and strong contender for newbie of the year) the team of Kank (second game ever? never played as scum), Maokun (same as Kank), IB(first time as scum). The thing is: Wessel did not play badly here, he reread, he was devoted, he did some nice analysis, he used his status as confirmed town very well indeed (I loooved that tv show like analyses). But Wessel fell into some common pitfalls, he misread town scummy players for scum and he didn't notice the completely unnatural Kank buddying towards him as a red alert. I believe the misread of the scummy townies was the town's downfall here, and one mistake the townies should learn most. WHat differentiates scummy town from scummy scum is the intention, that's really hard to gauge I know, but when you ignore the "he used the word lure", "his claim doesn't have a comma" and iPot shyness and Shark recklessness ("I don't really care about sounding scummy, I post what comes into my mind, no brakes") you have little truly scummy about those guys. You need to pay attention to the intention, not the form, always ignore the form.
KittyCupCake
I'm forever indebted to KCC, game was imploding in a mass of replacements, and I had already burned through all my replacements and personal friends to join. So I resorted to her in a last ditch effort, because I needed a reliable player. I was kind feeling bad for releasing such a shark into a pool of fishes because I know basics are for newish players and KCC was far from it, I expected she probably would easily break the game given enough time (and I was correct) and be bored because of the nature of basics (she even relutantly joined because of this, but I hope she enjoyed this basic that was far from the run-of-the-mill basic). In the end KCC started slowly, she didn't do much despite catch Maokun early then promptly forget her reasons, then spent a while doing nothing (probably bored because basic, while expecting the draw the NK, that she did after all). Then I think something clicked on her, this game was not the usual basic, things were diff here, all her expectations were upside down and she was actually confused by a basic, then TMCT claimed and everything made sense again, she quickly understood what was happening, turned into confirmed townie and cleared both TMCT and Rhand, then it was just a matter of time, KCC was back into the fray and she was getting the bad guys (that she did in the end but it was too late). In the end KCC had the strongest showing here, I'm just not giving her the town MVP because, she did nothing out of the ordinary considering her experience, she just lived to her legacy, and that was beautiful to see.
Kank
Despite all the nominations here I don't think Kank was the strongest scum player here. He buddied pretty strangely to Wessel (remember town is paranoid, town should not fully believe in anyone no matter how close they are outside of the game). Kank was also pretty defeatist in the last part of the game and was caught by KCC and eventually Shark in the end. That being said this was Kank's first scum game, for he certainly did an astonishing job for this game. He was always active, he did the marvelous snap counterclaim of Mao (I never saw that coming, and if he didn't do that the scum would probably have lost as both of them were tied at that point, it was quite a nice play there imho). It's unfortunate (but expected, as to play as scum is very stressful) Kank got so stressed at this game he's taking an early leave. But I hope eventually he comes back, I quite enjoyed to have him here and he has big potential.
IB
It was close between all the scummies (I loved them all and this victory was certainly a victory against all odds!) but I want to award scum MVP to IB. Not because of his last day game (that frankly sucked and if he continued to play like that he could end up lynched himself). But because of his strong early, mid game. IB mastered a skill that even high experienced scum players have trouble with, he's not afraid to bus, and by bussing, I don't mean feigned weak bussing. He attacked scum HARD, like a townie would, he mimicked his town play very well despite playing dozens of game's as town and zero as scum (he fooled Eron, and that was not easy). Considering he was having real-life troubles as an excuse for his weak game ending and still managed to avoid much suspicion because of his early town credit and strong busing of Mao, I think he was the scum MVP.
I have already commented in the spectator chat about everyone else play, but I can certainly expand if you guys want, I just want to talk more about Rhand, because he was the town MVP.
I won't repeat everyone's else commentary about this strong showing, but I want to reveal some related things. When I designed this game, I knew the weak doctor was one of the pivotal forces in the town's arsenal. Playing him correctly he could even work as a cop of sorts, playing incorrectly he could both suicides himself while letting town with no clues or worse, clear a scum in the process. Making this role is very, very hard to pilot. I even spent days thinking to myself about how I would play the role, to no avail. Not even I had any idea the best way to pilot it, in the end I just decided to stop thinking about a problem I didn't have to prevent some headaches for myself. The problem was just Rhand's to solve. And he solved it in a magnificent way, by having access to his thought processes I saw he was stumbling in the same very problems I had imagined myself and some of my own solutions (I too thought about doing the twilight T/S list, this also was one of the minor reasons for the 24hours twilights). Rounds dedication and always high spirits have been very enjoyable to watch. Keep up the good work dude, you not only managed to hit correctly as doc in your very first game, but you also cleared quite a few townies along the way and never suicided. It's impressing how the D1 "easy mislynch" Rhand has blossomed so quickly into "mist NK strong analyst or lose" Rhand.
***
Another round of applause, now for our replacements (all of them kept their promise to me, to not replace out no matter out :D). I still have things to say, so next I'm going to talk about game design (mostly basic game design, I didn't forget your "this is not a role for a basic" Eron :D), LTR design, deadlines related stuff, mod related stuff, and the mafia crisis. Not now though.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
iPot/Shark
I've noticed that in our forums there are "correct" ways of playing town or scum, and when one deviate from the common paths they are usually branded as scummy and mislynched again and again, until they "fix their ways" or their metas develop and people assume that guy is always scummy and stop lynching him despite this fact. I'm saying this because I think both iPot and Shark share a lot of similarities, they both have played in other sites where the "tells" are completely different from here and both have a playstyle considered inherently scummy for many (me included :p). I think iPot just wasn't lynched early is because both JD and KCC has experience with this "scummy" play so the pressure was lower (and scum were trying to mislynch Rhand and DDS because they looked easier). When JD was killed iPot lost a strong supporter and his lurky, vote-shy nature made him a mislynch waiting to happen, therefore when his computer was fried and he had to be replaced out, Shark was in a bad spot from the start, and Shark didn't improve very much from there on, he had quite a few posts that made both the spectator group and the townies in an uproar, "OMG, SHark is so scum", "has he just confessed to be scum? really?", "Ok, now we know Shark is scum, we just have to determine his buddy". In the end it was not a huge surprise he ended being mislynched in the end(however I expected him to go after Kank, that was obvscum). On a positive light I think Shark just discovered a new scumtell, from a town perspective, CCing a scum, just confirms then as town, so when Kank started the day (MYLO) with a defeatist tone of "ok, you can mislynch me now, I don't care, you will see I'm Garruk" it should have raised a lot of red alerts. It made no sense. In the end Shark difficulty in properly explaining his reasons and creating simple and to-the-point case meant only veteran KCC noticed the truth of his words. Considering the late appearance and his precarious position I think Shark did a good enough job, it certainly surprised me.
Agree with my play initially. it was terrible and I admit I put little effort at that point. When MTGDDS fliped non-scum, I knew I was in deep trouble so I really did put out the effort and managed to put out really strong cases, but given my initial start plus iPot's non-strong play, I basically was doomed. I was able to convince KCC which did make me feel good there, but I could not convince the general body of town, and scum basically took easy way outs and made little effort to get me lynched.
@Wessel: You don't have to policy lynch everyone who buddies, but definitely look at the intentions of players, especially how much effort they put in the later the game gets. It will help your play tremendously. Also, put yourself into other players shoes during major turning points, such as Kank after the Mao lynched. He should have been confirmed town, but he failed to capitalize on that, which I wouldn't do if I were him. But you did well overall and good luck in future endeavors.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
I correctly buddied up early to town jailer PG while I was town vig in Basic #69 because I was convinced he was town (and was right). I anticipated players here to go and read my only other game and match up my "townie" characteristics.
Oh, and it wasn't that I got stressed playing this game, it's just that I have too much else on my plate and these mafia games take a lot more time and commitment than I anticipated.
Though I did see Kank's buddying as an indication of something. I just didn't know how to read it correctly since I had no meta-experience of Kankennon. He could just as well be buddying up to me because we're actually friends. (Which reminds me of another scum player buddying up to me... Eh, DRey?) Guess I'll just policy lynch anyone buddying up to me from now on...
Hahaha, I didn't buddy up in an unnatural way, I would've said that no matter my alignment, I repeat once again, I will not lynch you D1 no matter how scummy you play, you deserve better than this because I value your opinions greatly.
Thanks again for the game, DRey. Don't forget to sign up to my Basic once my turn's up. It's still some time away (as it looks now, I'll be Basic #80), but I'd like you to be in it if you have the time.
Certainly, I'm in debt with all my replacements, all of them did an amazing job of turning this game in a much better experience for everyone.
Oh, and it wasn't that I got stressed playing this game, it's just that I have too much else on my plate and these mafia games take a lot more time and commitment than I anticipated.
I agree with you, mafia does takes much more commitment that initially looks like. However as you mature more, you start to get a more carefree posture in relation to mafia, I'm not saying you should not care about your team, but this is just a game, it should be fun for all parties.
I know it's easy to say that from the outside and this advice is much harder to adopt the more responsible the player is, anyway this is a thumbs up for you, as you certainly have proved to be a man of liability here.
I mean, I get what you're saying, but I feel the argument of 'someone who puts much effort into the later game is town' isn't always true.
I will have to agree with Shark here, I mean, which scumtell is absolute? None, but I believe that putting effort(particularly at lylo) is a towntell more often than not. The scum doesn't have to reread the game, because they already know who's scum and who isn't. And you know the only two players that never did any rereads in mylo (and probably never)? Kank and IB. They both sit there pretty pretending to be doing something when in fact they weren't. You, KCC and Shark have proven to be at least trying rereading the game, trying to do something. In fact I agree with KCC here, Shark lynch should not have occurred given how hard he was playing and the solid content he was providing (mostly against Kank).
***
About basic design and the non-conventional roles I've put here.
In case you don't know there are not much documentation about what a basic should be, we know that "mods can lie to the players" (that's actually an advice I like to follow in general) and that's it. On mafia scum all basics are semi-open setups, so the mods have no space to create anything. In salvation that's not the norm, however I never tried to create a "complex" game here. After discussing a bit with me reviewers I self-imposed some guidelines on how to create a nice and fun basics.
1)No new roles. Yeah, I didn't create any of those roles.
2)All roles should be easy to "grok", if a role had to be reread twice to be understood I had failed in this.
3)All roles should be "common" roles, so I could only get roles from here.
In the end I think I managed to create a nice setup, there's quite some combos out there. The weak doc and the innocent children, The tracker and the 3 scum with active night powers, the vanilla cop and the innocent child (that's just a vanilla in disguise, so it was not worth for a NK). It was a carefully crafted setup, one I'm quite proud of. However I do think TMCT role was a bit more complex than it should've been because he PMed me with doubts about what he could like four or so times.
about deadlines
I've come to a theory about what makes a game of mafia enjoyable and makes it unfun, and how the mod can prevent such situations. I believe one of the most important aspect of mafia is the pace of the game, players want to do stuff, town want to lynch their suspects, scum want to mislynch their targets, everyone loves flips and using their awesome powers to prove to everyone how they can make a difference, how they rule at mafia. Convincing people of your reads is one of the hardest parts of mafia.
And I don't think the usual deadlines help players in this aspect. From my experience what happen in games with deadlines: the day starts, people stand idle doing nothing, hopefully waiting for a cop result or some huge revelation to guide them, then suddenly the deadline approaches, then people start working in a hurry, they panic, votes are cast everywhere and in the end someone ends up lynched sometimes without even claiming, players feel powerless, they feel bad for waiting until the last moment (and when the coordination fails and it results in a no-lynch it's even worse) but they do the same in the next day, again and again.
It's not a secret I dislike the no-lynch deadlines, I feel they fail to provide what a game constanly needs: excitement!, blood, people actually doing something, actually when there's a deadline in place town usually likes to wait because "hey there's a deadline, it's very far, I don't need to do anything right now, let me do this other stuff here and when deadline is closer I will put some effort in this game again". In the end I think a lot of mafia games "die" because of inaction, because everyone is lazy and when you notice you can't get anything done because there's just a minority of people posting (and voting), the mod doesn't prod people nor does anything to make the game go forward, people get bored, then eventually ask to be replaced and even leave the site because "mafia is not for me, everything is so slow and stale". I also believe no-lynch deadlines promote one of the most toxic playstyle in mafia, the "saboteur" scum, the saboteur scum usually lurks, but not always. they spend their time trying to saboteur all wagons, they have no focus, they just want nothing to happen, they defend scummy townies to prevent their lynch, they also defend their buddies to prevent their lynches, they play scummy to derail other wagons, they divert from wagons, they create cases on players that have zero or little votes, they tunnel on players that are not getting lynched. They just promote dissension, not advancing the game state at the end trying to destroy the town by starvation. However with usual deadlines the mod has no way to prevent such despicable play because it works, and mods can't force players to play suboptimally on purpose. If it works it's valid.
The "majority lynch" deadline is much better because it doesn't actually promote this unfun scenario that strongly, as it's certain the game keeps progressing (the game need constant blood to keep players entertained). However I think it has the same fault of the other approach, it concentrates the work of the players in the few days that precedes a deadline, and bam there's the abrupt ending. When I devised the LTR I wanted it to accomplish two things; remind players there's a clock out there, the time is slowly ticking and if they don't work, they will be penalized for their laziness, hopefully this way town will work from the get got, not letting all discussion in the last few days before the deadline. The other idea is to make the game "warmer" as the time passes because the deadlines will get smaller, the punishment will get higher, so players need to get more and more engaged in the experience, they can't afford to ignore the game for sometime because if they do, the LTR will catch them pants down.
In the end I made the LTR time a little lower than usual because I expected Days to usually last a bit more than usual because LT-1 or 2 didn't make much difference in the early game. My predictions were completely off because no one gave a damn about the LTR, as the penalty for missing it was so low (vote reset and no one was actually lynched by LTR), players mostly ignored it. In the end, the final version of the LTR is mostly the same as the majority lynch deadline, with a bit of healthy leeway. It was not my intention to make it benefit town or scum, just to ensure the game maintained a pace all the time, and not only when near deadlines.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
None, but I believe that putting effort(particularly at lylo) is a towntell more often than not. The scum doesn't have to reread the game, because they already know who's scum and who isn't. And you know the only two players that never did any rereads in mylo (and probably never)? Kank and IB. They both sit there pretty pretending to be doing something when in fact they weren't.
EtR 214: Did not hammer KK when easily justified EtR 215: Big PBPA on PSR instead EtR 222: Says why KK isn’t scum IB 293: Pre-attack on PSR, happy with KK as scum IB 298: Attacks PSR, defends iPot, “strikes me as off” line which is always a cop-out. IB 299: Cheesy line to Mao, worried about being “speed lynched” IB 301: Buddying up to EtR, votes PSR IB 302: Tries to start a smear on Tezz? IB 307: Goads lurky iPot into posting IB 309: Wants PSR to claim iPot 365: Happy with either KK or PSR lynch During this whole period, iPot and Mao have many, many opportunities to converse but do not. IB 384: First of jokey pic posts IB 392: Calls to Mao to vote PSR IB 454-455: Re Mao vs PSR – “Ignoring Mao cuz noob?” Huh? IB 457: Jumps on Rhand Mao 465: vs KK & EtR Mao 466: More vs EtR iPot 484: Apologizes for absence/lurky behavior—wants KK & PST lynched still, while easily could have attacked Mao’s scummy color-coded post instead—distracting behavior IB 487-489: Wants PSR & Rhand lynches. Mao’s color posts are so, so very scummy now in hindsight. Who didn’t ignore how scummy they were? EtR, that’s who! +++town EtR IB 534: Still after KK/PSR, vs KK “Mostly for his recents posts?” Riiiiight. Ignores how scummy Mao is, in fact no Mao vs IB interaction around here at all. iPot 541: vs Mao; Mild agree, mild distancing EtR 562: Huge attack on Mao. I read over this post three times. I am not seeing any scum motivation on EtR’s part at all and lots from Mao. More +++town for EtR. EtR 563: Calls out IB EtR 579: Good point EtR 603: Still attacking Mao IB 617: Huh? EtR starts day 2 still on the Mao attack. EtR had every opportunity and reason to get off Mao and join a popular mislynch wagon on KK, PSR, and even Rhand at one point on Day 1. There is no possible way that a Day 1 scum player would do this against another scum player—for what? Gaining town cred at the expense of losing an active scumbuddy for no other reason that your early bus of him? No, EtR is definitely town. I thought he was town back when I first read through the game, and it’s even stronger now that I know what Maokun is/was. I suck—SUCK—at finding scum, but I have a damn good track record of spotting true, honest townies. “But Kank, that’s because you’re scum and have the list of who’s who!” That leaves IB and Shark/iPot. I’m getting scum vibes from both IB and iPot Day 1, but no smoking guns. If I had to choose between the two of them, I’d pick IB because I think he’s been scamming us this whole time and riding EtR’s anti-Mao coattails. (And lurking a lot more recently too!) Just because I had him linked to scum KCC and I was wrong about KCC doesn’t mean that he’s in the clear.
iPot 674: Concerned about appearing scummy iPot 677: Re: IB “Leaning more scum than town” –never follows up on that thought iPot 679: Always concerned about self image iPot 691: Finally responds to Mao after a lot of prodding—Null conversation EtR 697: Investigates JD—looks okay Mao 703: Decides iPot is less scummy because of weak conversation from #691??? iPot 715: Insulted by Wessel? Sounds forced. IB 717: Doesn’t believe Wessel Rhand 719: Makes a good point iPot 720: Is that cop fishing? IB 729: Questions Mao on Wessel IB 753: Still refuses to believe Wessel; weak comment vs Mao Mao 763: Casual distancing Re: IB to come? iPot 766: “Comfortable with lynching” yet never voting for anyone iPot 801: “Will await TMCT’s case on him” rather than actually do anything constructive TMCT 802: Calls him out on just that—not scumhunting IB 803: Votes MTG~DDS, FoS on TMCT for going after iPot!?!?! ++++scum IB 806: Decides to start going after Mao now? TMCT 816: Very fascinating look at iPot—oh that whole iPot is afraid of scumbombs thing! Planning the scumbomb tactic from early on with Mao??? IB 825: Defends one scummate while attacks the other IB/Mao 825-830: This looks like high school improv when compared to classic EtR vs Mao. IB 830: Ends with another cheesy pic IB 840: Playing the field—agrees that iPot looks bad along with keeping up vs Mao façade IB 841: Another pic – Maokun 2Townz IB 843: Curious that I’m seeing both of his scumbuddies as bad too Kank 844: I have Mao, IB, & iPot team but don’t fully realize it iPot 845: Responds to me saying he’s doing an awful job of appearing townie instead of TMCT’s case TMCT 846: Calls him out on it EtR 849-850: Good points iPot 853: Finally posts something of note? Huzzah! TMCT 857: More dialog w/ iPot, more mention of iPot’s scumbomb. I’m gonna call this breadscumming. EtR 864-868: vs Mao; IB vs Mao did nothing like this IB 877: FoS on me now? Yeah, that whole FoS thing is super-scummy. IB 878: Trying to stall me because my two top suspects are Mao & iPot here, despite IB supposedly being against them as well. IB 882: READ THIS POST!!! IB knows that two of the three people I listed will not flip town!!! iPot 906: Refuses to do anything but fence sit iPot 911: Still talking about the bomb thing? Good god man! iPot 914: Mentions about only caring about saving own neck instead of finding scum iPot 918: Posts immediately after Wessel and TMCT ease up on him; “overall” feel on IB and me—so lurky! IB/Mao 925-926: Getting better but still not up to Mao vs EtR levels Mao and IB are weak-bussing each other as iPot fence sits again. EtR 943: Case on KCC looks town motivated iPot 954: (Responding to prod) Gets on Mao’s bus of IB since IB said he was sick with norovirus. {I could write a whole page of WIFOM off this alone} KCC 957: Her PBPA of IB was what helped make me so suspicious of her Wessel 959: Much better IB analysis IB 973: Back and hand-waves forgetting stance on KK (yet remembers so well so many other details at opportune times!) IB 975-976: Replies to Mao & Wessel IB 992: Sarcastic reply to being my top scumspect IB 996: Better PBPA now of Mao—Gotta get that bus back up to speed since he’s now high on too many scum lists (not just mine) IB 998: Happy with DDS wagon too; “Hey look! I was still against Mao back here guys!” No mention of iPot now at all IB 1000: Ah, there is his mention of iPot now, along with me being “useless” instead of scummy. Nice. IB 1004-1008: After me now, but kisses up with birthday nod? Huh? IB 1012: Switches vote to MTG Mao 1056: Big call out to scumbuddies IB & iPot IB 1068-1069: Back on the Mao bus! Mao 1073: Oh yeah! Our fight! IB 1081: Wants Wessel to see me as scum in his assessment, another quick switch back to voting MTG KCC 1085: Says exactly what Mao/IB are trying to achieve IB 1089: Gives Mao the sign to stop now Mega lurking from iPot IB 1117: “Willing to count TMCT as confirmed town” IB 1131: Changes mind real quick and votes TMCT! Shark 1266: “IB looks town if Mao flips scum” so…EtR is chopped liver or what? Shark 1271: Points out Mao/IB’s one-act play with each other Shark 1296: Decides to analyze previous wagons instead of work out Mao’s lynch IB 1311: Reminds people how much he was against Mao all along. IB 1370: Now “super townie” and wagons MTG with less worry Shark 1374: Ready to wagon MTG too; mentions either IB or EtR must be scum Shark 1378: Super cheesy Shark 1384: “Will give you other scum with DDS soon” Shark 1391: Lazy town assessment of IB—nothing to back it up at all IB 1399: Lazy PoE list from IB Kank 1400: I request EtR assessment from Shark Shark 1401: Cops out on town read now with EtR. Uh, what about your post #1374? Hoping to find something on KCC now instead? Okayyyyy… Shark 1402: More previous vote analysis again??? “Betting IB/Kank are scum team though EtR/Kank likely” despite immediately previous post?!?! Bad idea trying to put your scum eggs in KCC’s basket and then having to backslide. Shark 1404: iPot’s play/claim gambit? Shark 1417: Shark 1424: Realizes that he has to find me scummy no matter what and try to quick wagon me before everyone can actually read the game with clear eyes and see that it is IB/Shark after all. Resorts to using flavorgaming as sole reason? “So I honestly think Kank is the remaining scum” Great line! We have the use of “honestly” which Shark likes to use a LOT, and tries to imply that there is only one scum player left and it’s Kank. You know, ‘cuz maths and such. Why would he say “the remaining scum” then? Very simple. Because he is one, and he’s not thinking about finding two scums—just “the remaining one.” Shark 1425: Knows exactly why Mao falseclaimed Shark 1430: Handwaves misuse of flavor, insists it’s a title issue IB 1431-1432: Claims, but doesn’t claim role; attacks buddy Shark now since it worked so well with Mao Shark 1448: Case more trying to defend iPot than anything; comes to “conclusion” that I’m scum IB 1449: “So there’s no real case on iPot” Surprise, surprise! Another “I’ve got to be honest” line. Shark 1450: Trying to clear iPot/IB more than anything IB 1453-Shark 1455: Trying to paint EtR and I as scum in what appears to be casual conversation EtR 1459: Good points against Shark Shark 1460: Cheesy reply to EtR Shark 1467: More vs EtR and me Shark 1479: Back to trying to poke at KCC again??? WTF??? Shark 1481: “Just had to be sure” Riiiiiight. After doing all that “iPot + IB = Good, Kank + EtR = Bad” how could he have repeatedly missed the KCC clearing AND already having asked the question before? Yet another “Honestly thinks IB is town” line.
There you have it—Shark and IB are the scum team people.
Overall, IB has more smoking guns than iPot/Shark:
Vote infectiousbaloth
I’d be more than happy to switch my vote to iPot if so desired. EtR will not be getting my vote. Period. If I’m insane and jumping at shadows with wine in my belly and tinfoil on my head, then please vote for me and put me out of my misery. Thank you.
I quickly stopped following along the game, and I would go several real-time days in a go without checking the mentor QT. I didn't even know DDS got himself modkilled.
So, no, I definitely didn't try my best.
I think ZDS did a fine job! My major mistakes were on questions I didn't know to ask. Also, the questions I did want to ask...ZDS was not allowed to answer. We both had several days break between communication. When I replaced in, I felt as though the game was waiting on me, and so I read everything through twice, taking notes, and made my play. In IRL game, a play like my first hammer is not a problem. Everyone knows what is going on in the room, everyone hears the conversation, and everyone gets reads and doesn't always need to make defenses before voting. Especially in majority consensus. That was my biggest learning curve...realizing that I needed to put thought trains, as completely as possible, in writing.
Can't wait for my next game, and I would be on board for ZDS or another mentor too.
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Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!! My Decks
Legacy BSpanish InquisitionB UWU/W StoneBladeWU WUGBant NOGUW BWDeadguy AleWB Modern WDeath and TaxesW EDH BBBalthor ReanimatorBB GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG BBMaralen ANT EDHBB UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
If the AC repair dude doesn't show up bright and early tomorrow, I'm gonna borrow some of DDS' dental tools to carve out his eye sockets like jack o lanterns.
I at first had issue with the roles DRey included, but after thinking about it/reading his explanation, I don't really see the problem.
As long as someone completely new to the game could look at these roles and understand what they do (which I think they could, minus maybe the innocent doc), then they're probably ok.
Do you think the LTR is overly complicated? I think you may be making the common mistake that assuming that just because the way things were always done since the ancient times it means that's the simpler way. Let me give you an magic related example, when magic started there was the concept of "mana burn", that's how it was done since the very begining and when mana burn was removed from the rules, a lot of players were angry because "it made sense", it "was flavorful", "it was not complex at all". But the cold hard reality is that mana burn was just yet another concept that players needed to be taught in an already high-complex game, that rarely mattered, it was just clutter. I don't think LTR is complex and if we had starting playing mafia from the very begining with it, and were presented with the hard deadlines we use today, they would be considered "non-basic material".
Yes, I think LTR is overly complicated for a basic. And no, it's not like mana burn at all; I completely agreed with the reasons for removing that when it was removed from magic. "When you reach this deadline, the day ends" is just far simpler than "when you reach this deadline, the lynch threshold will start to drop every few days until someone is lynched." And while I understand the upsides you are seeing, it just isn't basic material. -And the biggest reason why is because after the first ltr, lynches are no longer decided by majority. And that idea is the fundamental, basic concept of mafia -taking it out of a basic just feels wrong.
I'm actually going to second this, except that I also think the earlier LTR was incredibly annoying. -This just reminded me of something that I wrote off immediately at the start of the last Day, that would have won the town the game if we had a real deadline rather than the LTR's.
You are not being fair here, let me give you facts.
a)Deadline was never reached, so I don't think you can blame the LTR for the town loss.
b)Town always had the no-lynch possibility, and town (correctly) refused it. LTR did not have a part in this.
c)There are two types of hard deadline, the no-lynch one and the lynch biggest wagon one, I believe you are assuming that if it was a no-lynch one and it was reached town would have correctly lynched Kank and IB in a row, don't you think that's a huge leap of logic?Just because you have caught the scumteam it doesn't meant the rest of the town had. I could totally see you being NKed and Wessel and Eron mislynching Shark the next day for example.
Point C is true, I'll give you that. There is no guarantee that IB would have been lynched the next day had I been NKed.
But point A is just wrong, and that's really where my issue with it comes from. -Had this been a normal deadline system, I could have put my foot down to Wessel saying, "Look, it takes four to lynch, and there are only four townies. Therefore, neither of us is getting a lynch on scum today without the other's vote. Since I'm not voting for Shark, and you aren't voting EtR, that leaves two options." This would have primarily insured that at least one of the scum got lynched, but it also would have forced Wessel to actually talk to me about my Shark read, rather than letting him simply ignore it, since he could just go behind my back and wait for the LTR.
As for the mistaken vote count, I thought the VC posted immediately before Wes's vote was incorrect as well. But, EtR voted after that, so, you're right, it really didn't matter.
As a new player, I was surprised by the complexity of the roles, but I didn't have the feeling that they overcomplicated the game for me. If anything, they made it more fun.
They taught me a lot about how to use the lynch as town player and the JOAT had as big advantage that I've seen more night roles in action. The Doc being weak forced me to think more about my own night actions, which helped the learning process as well.
So from a learning perspective, I think this was a great setup.
I at first had issue with the roles DRey included, but after thinking about it/reading his explanation, I don't really see the problem.
As long as someone completely new to the game could look at these roles and understand what they do (which I think they could, minus maybe the innocent doc), then they're probably ok.
Wessel's role is simple in its concept but has complex implications. Using the lynch to directly clear a player is not how Mafia works in its basic form. It's a fine role for a Normal game, but I doubt it has a place in a Basic.
Ganderin_Dan matches my thought process when DRey gave me what turned out to be the final draft. I agree Wessel's role was borderline, and in retrospect I think you are correct that the Mafia shouldn't be effectively punished for achieving a mislynch.
@Kank hahaha, you are right, I had completely skimmed your post because I knew you were scum so your analysis was bogus, so I completely forgot about that, consider my point retracted then. Both scum and town can work a lot in lylo.
As long as someone completely new to the game could look at these roles and understand what they do (which I think they could, minus maybe the innocent doc), then they're probably ok.
Ohh, that was a preoccupation I had from the start, I dislike players being penalized when mods use unique/new/uncommon roles, so when I decided to use these roles I was also deciding this should be a full reveal game. I think mafia players already have many problems going throught their heads and when they stumble upon "reporter, commander officer, weak doctor" and don't know what are those roles we are just creating a new problem for them, it's not fair.
Yes, I think LTR is overly complicated for a basic. And no, it's not like mana burn at all; I completely agreed with the reasons for removing that when it was removed from magic. "When you reach this deadline, the day ends" is just far simpler than "when you reach this deadline, the lynch threshold will start to drop every few days until someone is lynched." And while I understand the upsides you are seeing, it just isn't basic material. -And the biggest reason why is because after the first ltr, lynches are no longer decided by majority. And that idea is the fundamental, basic concept of mafia -taking it out of a basic just feels wrong.
It's awesome how you always manage to simplify things (Shark's case and now LTR) and you are correct, the LTR is slightly more complex than deadlines (both to explain and how it works), however I think the advantages highly surpass the drawbacks, including in basics because I don't think anyone is unable to understand it. I also disagree lynches aren't being decided by the majority, because they clearly still are.
But point A is just wrong, and that's really where my issue with it comes from. -Had this been a normal deadline system, I could have put my foot down to Wessel saying, "Look, it takes four to lynch, and there are only four townies. Therefore, neither of us is getting a lynch on scum today without the other's vote. Since I'm not voting for Shark, and you aren't voting EtR, that leaves two options." This would have primarily insured that at least one of the scum got lynched, but it also would have forced Wessel to actually talk to me about my Shark read, rather than letting him simply ignore it, since he could just go behind my back and wait for the LTR.
You are being dense, no one has prevented you of saying such things, or trying hardest to convince Wessel of your reads, no one has also imposed to Wessel he should be ignoring your Shark read and stuck to his guns. This is mafia at it's core KCC! Both of you failed to convince each other before the deadline, scum capitalized on it. If Shark was indeed scum as Wessel was so sure of(and you were wrong) we certainly wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The truth of the situation is that both Eron and Wessel were fooled by the scum, you were correct but failed to convince them both them your read was better, therefore scum won because scum doesn't have to fool everyone all the time, they just have to fool part of the town, and they clearly did. I'm not saying this defeat is exclusively your fault (that would be stupid as you were the strongest in the end) but remember Mafia is a team game.
As a new player, I was surprised by the complexity of the roles, but I didn't have the feeling that they overcomplicated the game for me. If anything, they made it more fun.
They taught me a lot about how to use the lynch as town player and the JOAT had as big advantage that I've seen more night roles in action. The Doc being weak forced me to think more about my own night actions, which helped the learning process as well.
So from a learning perspective, I think this was a great setup.
Thanks for the words, but if you think those roles were COMPLEX in a vacuum, I failed as a designer. I believe you (and the other guys) believe those roles are complex because of your previous experiences (from articles, other games, from the flash tutorial, or even from old basics you read), therefore mixing unfamiliarity with complexity. Again the only role I think was more complex than I envisioned was TMCT's and not by much.
Wessel's role is simple in its concept but has complex implications. Using the lynch to directly clear a player is not how Mafia works in its basic form. It's a fine role for a Normal game, but I doubt it has a place in a Basic.
I think you are being dense, if there's a role that I strongly believe should be more used in basics is the innocent children (and it's variants). This role accomplishes so much with so little it's not even funny.
a)It's a simple role to explain and understand.
b) It gives players a nice starting point for discussion from early on, this is particularly important in basics where most players don't really know how to ignite meaningful conversation neither scumhunt.
c)It's non-targeted, so it's even easier to use from the usual investigative roles in basics (tracker/watcher/cops).
d)It's FUN as hell, both Void and Wessel seemed to have a lot of fun with the role (correct me if I'm wrong guys). Wessel's "Sweet, now I can say scummy things as much as I want without anyone suspecting me, best feeling ever" was one of the best lines of the game imho. The role feels much stronger than it really is, and that's awesome.
e)It provides hard (and that's good) choices for the mafia: "do we kill the effectively VT that's confirmed town or do we try to hit the other power roles?"
Ganderin_Dan matches my thought process when DRey gave me what turned out to be the final draft. I agree Wessel's role was borderline, and in retrospect I think you are correct that the Mafia shouldn't be effectively punished for achieving a mislynch.
Oh, you are quite wrong about this Eco, hahaha. Mafia (correctly) rejoiced when they "lynched" Wessel, as that mislynch was effectively a no-lynch for the town, a no-lynch with a slight upside but town spent their strongest power (the power to kill) just to confirm a vanilla townie, this is not usually a good trade, particularly when the other option at that time (Maokun) was scum.
I think the fact that all three scum were on Wessel's wagon just corroborates the idea this "mislynch" was beneficial for the scum (note that was a particularly easy mislynch they achieved without any repercussions for their team), maybe the scum can give their own opinion here, but to me they never felt oppressed by Wessel's role, in fact I think they managed to "use" that role quite well for them, they latched onto him as a "backup lynch" when Maokun's lynch was painted on the wall and got away with it.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You are being dense (;)), you worry more about defending your brainchild than about having a constructive conversation. You don't have to agree with criticism and different opinions, but at least you should listen to them instead of systematically shooting them down.
Hahaha, you couldn't be more wrong buddy, I've acknowledged all points with open arms, and even retracted a lot of my points and apologized when I did wrong (and boy I did a lot of things wrong here). And you should know this because you himself has discussed with me before about some of this stuff and you convinced made me to change the LTR (my brainchild).
Therefore I reserve the right to award this post with the "unfairest accusation of the year"
Anyway, I'm always open to discussion (this is what I love most about mafia, the clash of opinions) and if you would like to continue conversation I would love to, your opinion means much to me.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The fundamental issue is that - although the role is simple and easy to understand and rather neat (in terms of the decisions it produces) - messing with the lynch is something that probably shouldn't be done in Basics, and teaching newbies that a lynch might not succeed or that the scum can be punished for getting a mislynch/the town avoiding one is not beneficial to their long term development.
The fundamental issue is that - although the role is simple and easy to understand and rather neat (in terms of the decisions it produces) - messing with the lynch is something that probably shouldn't be done in Basics, and teaching newbies that a lynch might not succeed or that the scum can be punished for getting a mislynch/the town avoiding one is not beneficial to their long term development.
I imagine that most people, once exposed to that rule, would assume that it's an exception, and not a very common one at that.
The weak/innocent doc, however, creates too many decision trees/levels to operate on for a basic, IMO. Again, not a complex role (but I don't think any of them are, in a vacuum), but not one that may be appropriate for a basic where beginners need to be honing their behavioral analysis as opposed to letting the roles do the talking.
As a side-note, I think the town's underpowered design-wise.
Protection-wise, they have the weak doctor and the JOAT's one-shot. However, that protection can be blown to bits if they target a scum.
Investigation-wise, they have the weak doctor and one, maybe two, of the one-shots. However, if the weak doctor is being used for investigation, whatever method they use to communicate their targets can lead to an early death.
The innocent child is pretty much a vanilla townie that is wastes a lynch if it ever becomes active.
On the mafia side, there's a split-up roleblocker (which gives stability) and a vanilla cop.
It's effectively two power roles on each side, which I'm pretty sure is a mafia advantage.
I hate the Innocent Child for the exact reason you like it. This role diminishes the downside of being lynched as town, and even encourages running right into a lynch without a care in the world. It becoming common also means it can be valid to consider a player town because they are acting like they are trying to be lynched. In terms of negative impact on the metagame it's not the Jester, but it's close.
Now I understand your point (looks like Eco also got it wrong) and I agree with you. I haven't really thought from that point of view.
I could see an argument being made for a variant that doesn't require lynching, eg:
"Innocent Child: Can ask the Mod at any point during the Day to publicly reveal his role and confirm his alignment. The Innocent Child then loses his vote forever."
Actually I know three variants of the role.
Innocent Child: At the start of the game the mod publicly reveals you are vanilla town.
Innocent Child variant 1(your role): Can ask the Mod at any point during the Day to publicly reveal his role and confirm his alignment."
Innocent Child variant 2(my role): When lynched the Mod publicly his role and confirm his alignment, lynch is reversed into a no-lynch instead."
I considered all of them but in the end decided for the second variant for power level reasons, it's the weakest of the bunch and the one that punished the town the most for mislynching a townie.
Not the most exciting role to play but at least there's no chance of it ruining games it's not in.
I think this role is much weaker than it looks, but boy this is an exciting role to be lol. Also ruining games is a overstatement, this role is too weak to ruin games.
The fundamental issue is that - although the role is simple and easy to understand and rather neat (in terms of the decisions it produces) - messing with the lynch is something that probably shouldn't be done in Basics, and teaching newbies that a lynch might not succeed or that the scum can be punished for getting a mislynch/the town avoiding one is not beneficial to their long term development.
I agree messing with lynches is very, very dangerous. That's the holy grail of mafia and most often than not mods mess up when they do it, I even agree it not basic material for the reasons ZDS provided. But we will have to agree to disagree with your second point, lynching this role does not benefit town at all, wasting a lynch just to confirm a VT is not worthwhile, if this town had not wasted a lynch on obvtown Wessel they probably would have won this game because they would have another chance after mislynching Shark.
The weak/innocent doc, however, creates too many decision trees/levels to operate on for a basic, IMO. Again, not a complex role (but I don't think any of them are, in a vacuum), but not one that may be appropriate for a basic where beginners need to be honing their behavioral analysis as opposed to letting the roles do the talking.
Basics are not the place to hone behavioral skills Dan, basics are places to have fun in a balanced, simple and controlled environment. It's where we hook the new players into Mafia.
As a side-note, I think the town's underpowered design-wise.
Protection-wise, they have the weak doctor and the JOAT's one-shot. However, that protection can be blown to bits if they target a scum.
Investigation-wise, they have the weak doctor and one, maybe two, of the one-shots. However, if the weak doctor is being used for investigation, whatever method they use to communicate their targets can lead to an early death.
The innocent child is pretty much a vanilla townie that is wastes a lynch if it ever becomes active.
On the mafia side, there's a split-up roleblocker (which gives stability) and a vanilla cop.
It's effectively two power roles on each side, which I'm pretty sure is a mafia advantage.
You know roles vary immensely in power Cyoni, saying "that's two power roles" means little without mentioning which roles.
That being said you just reminded an important thing. I use a modified Axel's pointing system to balance games, and I want to reveal how I balanced this particular game (if anyone is interested in the full list PM me, it's a work in progress and I love discussing it).
Innistrad Mafia Setup
TOWN
JOAT(5 points) + weak doc (3 points) + Prince (2 points) + 6 VT (1 point each)
MAFIA
vanilla cop (5 points) + even night roleblocker (5.5 points) + odd night roleblocker (5.5 points)
For comparison purposes
Tracker: 3 points
Doctor: 4.5 points
scum role-blocker: 6 points
scum Role cop: 5 points
Do you think I grossly misvalued any of the roles?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
As a side-note, I think the town's underpowered design-wise.
Protection-wise, they have the weak doctor and the JOAT's one-shot. However, that protection can be blown to bits if they target a scum.
Investigation-wise, they have the weak doctor and one, maybe two, of the one-shots. However, if the weak doctor is being used for investigation, whatever method they use to communicate their targets can lead to an early death.
The innocent child is pretty much a vanilla townie that is wastes a lynch if it ever becomes active.
On the mafia side, there's a split-up roleblocker (which gives stability) and a vanilla cop.
It's effectively two power roles on each side, which I'm pretty sure is a mafia advantage.
You know roles vary immensely in power Cyoni, saying "that's two power roles" means little without mentioning which roles.
That being said you just reminded an important thing. I use a modified Axel's pointing system to balance games, and I want to reveal how I balanced this particular game (if anyone is interested in the full list PM me, it's a work in progress and I love discussing it).
Innistrad Mafia Setup
TOWN
JOAT(5 points) + weak doc (3 points) + Prince (2 points) + 6 VT (1 point each)
MAFIA
vanilla cop (5 points) + even night roleblocker (5.5 points) + odd night roleblocker (5.5 points)
For comparison purposes
Tracker: 3 points
Doctor: 4.5 points
scum role-blocker: 6 points
scum Role cop: 5 points
Do you think I grossly misvalued any of the roles?
True. I was referring to the JOAT and the weak Doctor vs. the split Roleblocker and the Vanilla Cop.
My thought's that the JOAT's grossly overcosted in your schemata.
You get one track, one redirect, and one jail. Combine that with the fact that as soon as all your shots are used, you're just a vanilla townie. My guess would be 3.5 points at most, and I really want to put 3 here.
I'd probably also drop the innocent townie to 1.5, as it wastes the town's greatest weapon.
Pointing, in this case, is slightly flawed. Even if all the points line up, the dynamics lend themselves to the scum. Pretty much the one protection role can blow themselves up, you've got very little in the way of investigative power, and the mafia can hunt power roles and has a stable roleblock. Oh, and that protective role has to hint who they're targeting, giving the mafia an easier time of it. Also, consider what the weak doctor can protect. In power roles, it has the JOAT and the innocent townie, only one of which is really a good pick when they're revealed.
One last thing - please recall my username has a 'u' in it.
My thought's that the JOAT's grossly overcosted in your schemata.
You get one track, one redirect, and one jail. Combine that with the fact that as soon as all your shots are used, you're just a vanilla townie.
Yup, but this JOAT is stronger than it looks in this particular game because all mafia have "activated" abilities(the track and the redirect being stronger).
My guess would be 3.5 points at most, and I really want to put 3 here.
I'd probably also drop the innocent townie to 1.5, as it wastes the town's greatest weapon.
Even if the JOAT was just 3 and the innocent just 1.5 game would still be balanced (because a 2 points difference does not make a game unbalanced,).
Pointing, in this case, is slightly flawed. Even if all the points line up, the dynamics lend themselves to the scum. Pretty much the one protection role can blow themselves up, you've got very little in the way of investigative power, and the mafia can hunt power roles and has a stable roleblock. Oh, and that protective role has to hint who they're targeting, giving the mafia an easier time of it. Also, consider what the weak doctor can protect. In power roles, it has the JOAT and the innocent townie, only one of which is really a good pick when they're revealed.
Some things you may have missed; The innocent is considered an investigative role; the vanilla cop could have gotten a "false" positive from the innocent;the vanilla cop is even weaker than the role cop but I put him with the same point;the two roleblockers give more stability but also are more susceptible to disruption (tracker, redirect, jail, double of chances of one of them dying);
In the end this is a low powered setup (by design), a low powered setup that looks much stronger than it looks but still, there are no unfair things the town could have done (no cop), so the roleblockers were mostly for show.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
My thought's that the JOAT's grossly overcosted in your schemata.
You get one track, one redirect, and one jail. Combine that with the fact that as soon as all your shots are used, you're just a vanilla townie.
Yup, but this JOAT is stronger than it looks in this particular game because all mafia have "activated" abilities(the track and the redirect being stronger).
Honestly, if those two were swapped for a watch and a redirect-from-player, maybe so. But really, for investigative purposes, the track's the only good one in this. You can redirect a roleblock, but to do that you have to target the roleblocker with your one chance. If you redirect the kill, it becomes WIFOM. Same with the jail, if you use it for the roleblock ability.
Honestly, I'd rather have a pure tracker.
My guess would be 3.5 points at most, and I really want to put 3 here.
I'd probably also drop the innocent townie to 1.5, as it wastes the town's greatest weapon.
Even if the JOAT was just 3 and the innocent just 1.5 game would still be balanced (because a 2 points difference does not make a game unbalanced,).
You had a total of 16 points. 13.5/16 is a pretty significant drop - approximately 15% in power difference.
Pointing, in this case, is slightly flawed. Even if all the points line up, the dynamics lend themselves to the scum. Pretty much the one protection role can blow themselves up, you've got very little in the way of investigative power, and the mafia can hunt power roles and has a stable roleblock. Oh, and that protective role has to hint who they're targeting, giving the mafia an easier time of it. Also, consider what the weak doctor can protect. In power roles, it has the JOAT and the innocent townie, only one of which is really a good pick when they're revealed.
Some things you may have missed; The innocent is considered an investigative role; the vanilla cop could have gotten a "false" positive from the innocent;the vanilla cop is even weaker than the role cop but I put him with the same point;the two roleblockers give more stability but also are more susceptible to disruption (tracker, redirect, jail, double of chances of one of them dying);
The innocent works only when it's lynched - meaning town wastes a lynch to get that "investigation". That's pretty bad for an investigative role.
Yes, the vanilla cop can get a false positive from the innocent townie, but that just proves the fact that the innocent townie is terrible as a town power role. Saying one of the three power roles is a "false positive" means that there's really only two power roles on the town side.
Compared to the benefits of splitting up the roleblocker, the minor downsides caused by oneshots are negligible.
In the end this is a low powered setup (by design), a low powered setup that looks much stronger than it looks but still, there are no unfair things the town could have done (no cop), so the roleblockers were mostly for show.
If all the mafia does is null town power roles, they have an advantage right there due to the extra knowledge.
I'm gonna avoid the balance discussion and just say that I disagree that Basics aren't meant for honing behavioral skills. I like to test out new things in Basics more often than not.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The weak/innocent doc, however, creates too many decision trees/levels to operate on for a basic, IMO. Again, not a complex role (but I don't think any of them are, in a vacuum), but not one that may be appropriate for a basic where beginners need to be honing their behavioral analysis as opposed to letting the roles do the talking.
Basics are not the place to hone behavioral skills Dan, basics are places to have fun in a balanced, simple and controlled environment. It's where we hook the new players into Mafia.
I am fairly confident that most people will disagree with you here/you are mistaken. If they don't work on behavioral analysis in the "simple" games, when will they?
Honestly, if those two were swapped for a watch and a redirect-from-player, maybe so. But really, for investigative purposes, the track's the only good one in this. You can redirect a roleblock, but to do that you have to target the roleblocker with your one chance. If you redirect the kill, it becomes WIFOM. Same with the jail, if you use it for the roleblock ability. Honestly, I'd rather have a pure tracker.
WIFOM is overused in this forums, if you redirect from someone scummy to another scummy player that ends up dead I disagree it's WIFOM, but maybe that's just me, I love a razor. Anyway, this doesn't mean the redirect is a very good power, and I knew this from the start, the JOAT was not supposed to be the main investigative role of the town as his power lies in the versatility, not in brute force. But in retrospect I do agree the JOAT is underpowered for 5 points, I believe he should count 4 or his redirect changed into another, stronger power.
Yes, the vanilla cop can get a false positive from the innocent townie, but that just proves the fact that the innocent townie is terrible as a town power role. Saying one of the three power roles is a "false positive" means that there's really only two power roles on the town side.
If all the mafia does is null town power roles, they have an advantage right there due to the extra knowledge.
Didn't understand this.
@Iso, Gdan This point is really hard to explain, because it looks like I'm an idiot for saying "basics are not the place to hone your skills", when they clearly are (everygame is a place of honing skills) so I will just give another example to explain my point better.
"FNMs are not the place to learn how to play magic"
While this looks like an absurd at first glance, this pov does have merits. Some players like to play competitively at all times, refusing takebacks, jedi mindtricking opps, being overall jerks at all levels. FNMs are the lowest level sanctioned magic player players can experiment, everyone is a newbie when they start playing magic and they need a non-competitive, fun, easy way to start, they have to be taught to improve and stuff before evolving further somewhere after all, while at first glance FNM's looks like the best place to train wannabe pro-players, it's actually not. Not every player has the drive nor the obligation to "evolve", I'm a firm believer FNMs should be very casual oriented and whenever I'm judging one and I see behaviors best seen at GPs, GPTs or PTQs I talk to the players and educate them, no one will ever turn pro playing FNM only nor they should be trying to. FNMs are tourneys where you should be having fun, I know most people have fun only when they are winning, but that's not an excuse for being an ******* at FNMs, of course you will improve your skills the more you play FNMs, but if you want to go to the next level, you should search for environments better suited to your needs: GPs, GPTs, PTQs.
Now replace FNM for basic, GP/GPTs for normal and PTQs/PT for speciality to better understand my point.
Also, I don't think I can be convinced here, because of my background I may view things differently from the majority, doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong, just that we are different, viva la diferença!
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Makes sense, I've never thought from this POV and I agree big gimmick games are sometimes not very good for exactly those reasons, maybe that's why I dislike big, dancing Macarena games.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Honestly, if those two were swapped for a watch and a redirect-from-player, maybe so. But really, for investigative purposes, the track's the only good one in this. You can redirect a roleblock, but to do that you have to target the roleblocker with your one chance. If you redirect the kill, it becomes WIFOM. Same with the jail, if you use it for the roleblock ability. Honestly, I'd rather have a pure tracker.
WIFOM is overused in this forums, if you redirect from someone scummy to another scummy player that ends up dead I disagree it's WIFOM, but maybe that's just me, I love a razor. Anyway, this doesn't mean the redirect is a very good power, and I knew this from the start, the JOAT was not supposed to be the main investigative role of the town as his power lies in the versatility, not in brute force. But in retrospect I do agree the JOAT is underpowered for 5 points, I believe he should count 4 or his redirect changed into another, stronger power.
Yeah, that'd help out a lot, especially given the redirect can't make the NK kill scum.
The innocent works only when it's lynched - meaning town wastes a lynch to get that "investigation". That's pretty bad for an investigative role.
Yes... that's why he's just a 2, a cop is a 6 for example and a tracker a 3. On the other hand 1.5 is way too low for him, 1.5 is effectively VT.
If he didn't waste the lynch, I'd put him higher.
As it is, since he forces a lynch for a single "investigation", he pretty much actively hurts the town, especially the way this setup's designed. As well, he pretty much has to be lynched in a MyLo scenario. And in that scenario, the mafia will be immediately bumping off a power role.
If all the mafia does is null town power roles, they have an advantage right there due to the extra knowledge.
Didn't understand this.
Let's take a vanilla game as an example.
In a 12-person vanilla game, the general makeup is ten town and two scum. That's still generally considered to give a slight advantage to the scum due to the fact that they're working with full knowledge of who's scum.
So, in a 12-person basic, if the scum can nullify the power roles, they have a significant advantage right away.
The weak doc can kill himself (or is forced to reveal his targets), the JOAT has three shots, and the innocent town is underwhelming. The innocent town practically gives the mafia an extra night to hunt power roles by forcing his lynch.
On the mafia side, we have a divided roleblock and a vanilla cop, both of which make it pretty easy to shut down town power roles.
Once the town power roles are shut down, the mafia hold a significant advantage due to their extra knowledge of the game.
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There was no point with the roleblocker.
I went for the odd chance of clearing another town
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Clan RepresentativeGood call!
How would you have telegraphed your target had you hit scum and died that way?
87th of Hunter’s Moon, Ava. 719
This sword is a most unnatural object. I have covered it in a swatch of leather so that there will be no possibility of accidental contact. The times that I have touched its surface, it felt warm and alive, pulsing with evil energies.
I had the presence of mind to confiscate some of its papers that lay spread out on the table. I knelt in prayer, thanking Avacyn for my victory at this quest, and then walked out as easily as I walked in. I do not pretend to understand these creatures, nor their enigmatic motives, but clearly I have been allowed entry into this realm, and I was allowed out.
On my way back a crippled, unarmed vampire called Thatu intercepted me and explained his lord Sorin was trying to protect Innistrad from the threat of the werewolves. And asked for the sword in our possession, he explained he as the original owner of it and he gave it to Sorin to aid his fight against the werewolves, apparently the sword is named The Bloodletter. Flesh split by this blade never ceases to bleed, even after death. If that's true it makes sense for vampires to want this sword so badly.
He told us that the week before werewolves made a surprise attack on Sorin's castle and slaughtered everyone, him being the only survivor. Pitre told me he did not believe this vampire story at all but after Thatu revealed the werewolves next step was a full attack on Thraben I didn't want to take any chances so we arrested him and rushed back.
Raben
101st of Hunter’s Moon, 719.
Time is not measured by days, but by who we were when it passed us.
I write these words yet I do not know why. What is the purpose? All that I know has been an illusion, I have built my house on a pile of stinging salt.
Is this real? They say the dead dream too. Perhaps I am dreaming.
If I am dead, then I am haunting these pages with the truth. If I am alive, the truth will haunt me forever.
Where to begin? We arrived in Thraben yesterday, and I bade Thatu to wait in the narthex while I gave Jofridus the sword. How strange it is to write his name now.
He touched my brow in blessing, then took the cursed sword and set it on his desk. I then told him I had far worse news, and that he should hear it from a witness. I called Thatu into Jofridus’ chamber.
Those were the last minutes of my former life.
He walked through the door, and from the look on his face, I knew that something was terribly wrong. “YOU!” he shouted, and before I could react, he lunged across the room at Jofridus.
I expected him to be surprised at this sudden attack, but he looked completely unshaken, as if he expected it.
“I saw you kill my brethren in the castle!” Thatu was shaking with anger, as he took Jofridus by the shoulders and began shaking him. To my astonishment, Jofridus grasped him by the throat and threw her to the ground as if she was made of paper. How could such an old man display such strength? I would soon find out.
I made a step to intervene, but it was a step too late. Thatu jumped back up and charged him. Jofridus calmly removed the sword from its leather wrappings, and thrust it through his belly.
I still do not know if the scream I heard was his or mine.
I will not write anymore tonight. I would pray, but I’ve wasted enough breath.
101th of Hunter’s Moon, 719
After he murdered Thatu, Jofridus turned to me with a fervor I had never seen before burning in his eyes. I was stunned into silence, a shame I carry still. Pitre and Skaharra were the only ones that remained at my side, Pitre completely astonished by what was happening.
My world was slowly shifting under my feet, I felt as if I could not stand. My face was wet with tears, and yet a smoldering anger was welling up inside of me. Jofridus could see it in my face, and he made a move to step between me and Thatu’s crumpled body.
He was just a vampire, he said, let's kill this Thatcher with you and we can put all the blame on him, and you can join me. You can fight for Avacyn for a millennia, for eternity, he said. He peeled back his vestments to reveal a twisted metal yoke that had burned its way into the flesh around his neck and chest. I have one for you, he said, all you have to do is take it. Take it and live forever.
Living for an eternity suddenly seemed like a damnable chore.
No words could find their way across my lips. I simply turned my back on him. He shouted for his guards, and declared us heretics. He said he had proof that I had been worshipping demons underneath the cathedral. It was this final act of betrayal that left no doubt in my mind that the man I had thought of as my father all these years – the man that had pulled me from the dirt and gave me this life – that man was dead. In his place was this thing in front of me.
I realized that there could be no proving my case in Thraben. The cathedral that I had been named after would be a prison if I was to stay. I had no choice but to fight.
I looked at Pitre and he told me he would fight to the end, poor boy, he was just a novice, so young and yet I had involved him in this chaotic situation... Skaharra just nodded in silence.
I thanked both of them from the bottom of my heart and we prepared our weapons.
Jofridus was quick to escape with the Bloodletter, there was no arguing with my previous comrades, but I tried to not mortally wound anyone, they were all my friends after all. The battle was kinda even because no one really wanted to fight and reached a stalemate of sorts until reinforcements came, but considering their numbers I knew we couldn’t resist forever. In the end Pitre died fighting despite me trying the hardest to defend him as much as I can, Skaharra surrendered instantly after that, and right before I would die fightning we heard a thunderous blast. Everyone stood frozen while the screams and the noise of battle started outside, we were under attack, "probably the werewolves" I thought to myself.
Then both the Lunarch and a man I didn't know arrived and inquired what was happening, the soldiers told them Jofridus' story and they looked at us with inquisitive eyes. Before I could articulate a defense another blast echoed and the man with the Lunarch ordered the soldiers to let me and defend the city, the soldiers stood there reluctantly until Mikaeus confirmed the order.
Apparently the man had a lot of authority towards Mikaeus because the Lunarch stood in silence while we told him the truth. He introduced himself as Geralf, a friend of the church and apparently he fully believed in me. We were brought to Mikaeus room, and the lunarch explained me that Jofridus probably was hiding in the inners chambers and that he already suspected the church was corrupted with demon worshippers, we were healed and rested a bit to catch our breath.
If there is an Avacyn, may she guide us to justice.
Raben
He was alone, and apparently expecting my party. The sword was nowhere in sight, although I would be reunited with it soon enough.
“I knew you would return, my son. I have been preparing for it.”
My anger had reached its boiling point. Calling me his son had ignited a fury inside me, and I drew my sword and charged him. Nothing could stop me now, no force could keep me from my purpose – none save a familiar voice uttering a single word.
“Traitor”
When I turned back I saw the body of the Lunarch falling into the ground, Skaharra was laughting with a bloodied dagger in hand. I screamed in anger while Gerald tackled her into the ground, but he was punched away by a hulking werewolf. Skaharra has herself turned into a werewolf!
Skaharra stood up between me and Jofridus. "Sorry, it's nothing personal but I have to kill you".
Jofridus’ revenge had backfired. All this profanity had given me a strength I had never known. For better or for worse, I was not the Raben he had last seen.
I swore an oath as I charged the thing, and it parried my blow with a sword of its own – the Bloodletter. The last time I met this cursed bit of metal in battle, I had to change my tactics in order to avoid its eternal wound. This time, I had no such misgivings. There is nothing quite as powerful as having nothing to lose.
My attack was a thunderstorm of swinging blades as I took all the anger over Jofridus’ betrayal, and focused every ounce of it on my silver sword. The thing fought like a snake, darting and weaving, but no amount of agility would keep me from my purpose. The sound of my heartbeat was throbbing in my ears as I let out a battle cry and pounced on the vile creature, driving my blade through its chest and into the stone underneath it.
It let out a shrill cry, and began to twitch and writhe as it slowly turned back into Skaharra’s body. Its head jerked up and locked eyes with me. As her last breath escaped her lungs, I heard her say it.
“You mad bro?”
I stood up, near-exhausted. My heartbeat was louder than ever, and I realized it was due to the cuts I had received from the cursed blade. I looked down and saw each one pulse with every beat of my heart, pumping forth blood. I began to feel dizzy, but then I remembered why I was there: Jofridus.
I saw the Bloodletter lying next to her, and in one swift motion I took it by its grip and confronted the man who had taken everything from me.
For his part, he hid his fear well. He clearly had not expected me to survive my encounter with the werewolf. He pulled the neck of his robe open to reveal the yoke and said “You can’t kill me, boy. Not even the Bloodletter can harm me now. Consider the position you are in and put that thing down!”
“Then you will not mind if I test it out!” And with that, I lunged. He jumped back, avoiding my blow but exposing his lie; the Bloodletter would do just fine.
My strength was slowly leaking out onto the floor, so I had little time. The butcher’s bill of his crimes was due, and I would be the cost. I found new strength in his deception, and lunged at his frail form. At first I had thought the blade had only pierced some folds in his robes, as there was not the familiar resistance that normally accompanies flesh. But his halted scream confirmed that the Bloodletter had taken another victim.
He fell backwards, sliding off the blade and onto the stone floor of the chamber. Coughing up blood, he looked up at me and tried to speak.
“I have no need of your lies any longer.” With that, I swung the blade and decapitated his pathetic form.
That is when I saw the yoke. With each heartbeat, it called out to me. Each one, like the last ticks of a clock, chiseled away at my thoughts. I looked at Mikaeus’, Geralf and Skaharra sad remains. I thought of Pitre’s brave sacrifice in the cathedral above me.
I knew then what I must do. Everyone would receive the blessed sleep, and all it would cost me was my eternal soul.
I reached over to Jofridus’ headless corpse, dug my fingers into his chest around the yoke, and tore it off. I used the last ounce of my strength to place it around my neck, and gasped as the unholy metal knitted and melted into my own flesh. My heartbeat slowed to a stop, and so too the bleeding. I writhed in agony as each wound closed itself up.
I was something different now.
So this book, once a place I went to for enlightenment, now becomes my epitaph. For whatever the case, whether I am evil or whether I am a coward, Raben is no more. Perhaps he never existed in the first place. Maybe he was merely something to comfort me in my blindness.
I shall write no more. There are others whose bills are due.
And I will be the cost.
Amsel
1st day, year one.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
TOWN
SCUM
11. MirrorEntity, you are: Tovolar – [Mafia Full-moon Roleblocker AKA Odd-Night Roleblocker]
You cannot completely return to human form, therefore, people's reactions to you are full of fear and disdain as they see your half-human, half-wolf body, forcing you to go incognito most of the time. Heck you are feared even amongst the werewolves because of your aggressivity. No matter, Ulrich trusts you and that’s all that matters. You could even kill that whore Skaharra in the blink of an eye if he demanded it... actually you want to kill her at all costs and you are just trying to find an excuse.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. On a full moon night (represented by odd Nights in the game), you may take your pack in to ravage a house, roleblocking the hapless person inside and preventing them from doing anything.
Such a beautiful woman... yet so deadly. Because of your looks, you can gather lots of useful information from the humans while infiltrating their puny village; after all, the little toys are so easy to manipulate and so fragile. Can't you believe that you were one once? But you want more, and you know Ulrich favors you from than stupid Tovolar, because you have some “tools” at your disposal that he doesn't.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. In a waning moon night (represented by even Night in the game), you may go into a house to seduce their inhabitants, roleblocking the hapless person inside and preventing them from doing anything “more” that night.
1. Ged, you are: Garruk, the Relentless – [Town Super Saint]
That damned Liliana has cursed you, and the curse grows stronger by the moment. Your powers are starting to wane and your life is constantly in danger because of that. But you are a hunter and you know you will die soon due to the curse, so you will die fighting. But for now you need to rest, so you decide to stay a bit in this calm village before resuming your hunt.
Abilities:
a. You may vote.
b. When you are lynched, using your last strength to quickly ravage the person who placed the last vote on you, killing them in while you die.
Commentary next, I'm tired.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
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Clan RepresentativeThanks DRey!
a)In mylo the scum job is to make 2 townies to place their vote wrong, then coordinate a quickhammer, the scum managed to achieve both goals perfectly don't you agree?. Considering that if I had backtracked Eron's vote because of the wrong VC, do you think it would be fair to the scumteam after Shark, IB and Kank "confession"?
b)When Proph posted the wrong VT, Shark was already lynched, the wrong VC had no impact in that.
While in a vacuum I agree wrong VC are terrible customer service, I don't think it had any impact here (thankfully!), don't you agree? Notice this is not an excuse, we did it wrong, and I deeply apologize for this, a mistake is a mistake.
Again I apologize, the LTR should be at midnight as all the previous ones. The fact that I live so far (and the fact that none of the American time zones work here) made it hard for Proph to properly adjust it. Fortunately again we lucked out and it didn't have any impact, as both you and Eron misvoted before the LTR kicked in (and Proph posted the wrong VC).
Actually my vision was the we needed a lot of warnings of the LTR(in fact I think it should be always like this, deadlines being reminded all the time), unfortunately I was away for a whole weekend judging a GP and I didn't remind Proph to pay extra attention to this.
Anyway, I want feedback about this, the LTR is my creation and I want to know how you guys felt about this, did you feel oppresed by it? Did you think this mechanic is more or less enjoyable than hard deadlines? (both no-lynch deadlines and biggest wagon lynch deadlines), do you think latest version is better or worse than earlier ones? Given a choice would you prefer to play with LTR again or the usual deadlines?
I will let this at the discretion of the mentees and mentors. BTW a big thanks to all our mentors and mentees I worked very hard to make the experience enjoyable for everyone particularly for the newbies and I actively hunted the best guys to mentor here and I think I broke a new record here in quantity of mentors. Unfortunately my work wasn't enough and we ended up with such a high number of replacements.
Anyway, a round of applause for GDan, Iso, Wheat, ZDS, TCM, KJ and Voxx!
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Curse PremiumIt depends on if WG would have been more careful with his vote if he understood where the VC stood.
The earlier LTR's were bad, especially the Day 1 version. The latest one was fine, but I don't think it was a significant improvement over hard deadlines. In any case, I especially don't think fancy deadline systems like this really belong in a basic game, which should be more... basic.
For the LTR - I would need to see it fleshed out again. It felt inconsistent. The first one was jarring. The idea is good though.
Good work with the flavor. The one qualm is the final vote count, but 1) I don't think there was a way to correct it and 2) it was two town votes on there first.
Overall, I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next one.
I'm fine with people seeing mine/Rhand's mentor thread if he's ok with it. It's not up to snuff with ZDS' ventures, but I thought it was decent enough. Rhand didn't need it all too badly.
And for having me as a replacement, I enjoyed this enormously and learned a lot.
I'm ok with my mentorchats made public. Meta-players will love it
As for the LTR: it seemed that it helped town in the early game and scum in the late game. I lack the experience to compare it to the existing systems.
I'm actually going to second this, except that I also think the earlier LTR was incredibly annoying. -This just reminded me of something that I wrote off immediately at the start of the last Day, that would have won the town the game if we had a real deadline rather than the LTR's.
Isn't that role strongest when it manages to stay hidden until lylo?
That convinced me you were scum.
Because I want to learn: how is that a town mentality?
It probably isn't, but I'm not the best person to ask that
After a few LTRs I didn't want players to just claim at L-2, and I didn't think there was enough support to lynch you. If enough players to lynch you had said "we want Rhand to claim," I may have been fine with seeing your claim before lynching you. The LTR may have had a bigger impact on my mindset than I was letting on.
The way I handled that was definitely a mistake, though.
Do you think the LTR is overly complicated? I think you may be making the common mistake that assuming that just because the way things were always done since the ancient times it means that's the simpler way. Let me give you an magic related example, when magic started there was the concept of "mana burn", that's how it was done since the very beggining and when mana burn was removed from the rules, a lot of players were angry because "it made sense", it "was flavorful", "it was not complex at all". But the cold hard reality is that mana burn was just yet another concept that players needed to be taught in an already high-complex game, that rarely mattered, it was just clutter. I don't think LTR is complex and if we had starting playing mafia from the very beggining with it, and were presented with the hard deadlines we use today, they would be considered "non-basic material".
You are not being fair here, let me give you facts.
a)Deadline was never reached, so I don't think you can blame the LTR for the town loss.
b)Town always had the no-lynch possibility, and town (correctly) refused it. LTR did not have a part in this.
c)There are two types of hard deadline, the no-lynch one and the lynch biggest wagon one, I believe you are assuming that if it was a no-lynch one and it was reached town would have correctly lynched Kank and IB in a row, don't you think that's a huge leap of logic?Just because you have caught the scumteam it doesn't meant the rest of the town had. I could totally see you being NKed and Wessel and Eron mislynching Shark the next day for example.
Not at all, I think you tried your best, DDS that was a lazy student, he didn't really used your help as much as he could, for his own loss.
Uh, you weren't?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
iPot/Shark
I've noticed that in our forums there are "correct" ways of playing town or scum, and when one deviate from the common paths they are usually branded as scummy and mislynched again and again, until they "fix their ways" or their metas develop and people assume that guy is always scummy and stop lynching him despite this fact. I'm saying this because I think both iPot and Shark share a lot of similarities, they both have played in other sites where the "tells" are completely different from here and both have a playstyle considered inherently scummy for many (me included :p). I think iPot just wasn't lynched early is because both JD and KCC has experience with this "scummy" play so the pressure was lower (and scum were trying to mislynch Rhand and DDS because they looked easier). When JD was killed iPot lost a strong supporter and his lurky, vote-shy nature made him a mislynch waiting to happen, therefore when his computer was fried and he had to be replaced out, Shark was in a bad spot from the start, and Shark didn't improve very much from there on, he had quite a few posts that made both the spectator group and the townies in an uproar, "OMG, SHark is so scum", "has he just confessed to be scum? really?", "Ok, now we know Shark is scum, we just have to determine his buddy". In the end it was not a huge surprise he ended being mislynched in the end(however I expected him to go after Kank, that was obvscum). On a positive light I think Shark just discovered a new scumtell, from a town perspective, CCing a scum, just confirms then as town, so when Kank started the day (MYLO) with a defeatist tone of "ok, you can mislynch me now, I don't care, you will see I'm Garruk" it should have raised a lot of red alerts. It made no sense. In the end Shark difficulty in properly explaining his reasons and creating simple and to-the-point case meant only veteran KCC noticed the truth of his words. Considering the late appearance and his precarious position I think Shark did a good enough job, it certainly surprised me.
Eron
Eron started very strongly, he was heavily considered to be the first NK because of the way he latched into Maokun and didn't let off. Mao didn't expect to live much longer if Eron kept pressuring him so strongly but in the end, Eron got "tamed". I don't know the reasons, but the more game passed the less and less Eron scumhunted and did something noteworthy. In fact I believed he was not enjoying the game very much, so I was kinda surprised when he said the opposite, so I don't know what happened. Maybe real life or he was playing in too many games at the same time, dunno. In the end I didn't like Eron showing in this particular game, in the end despite his strong start he dropped the ball and both: didn't even try to reread the game in mylo; cast a vote early in the day without said rereading.
Wessel
Wessel, ah Wessel. It's not a secret that I believe him to be a very strong player, when he joined the game in that particular role (unlikely to be neither Nked and unlynchable) I expected town to sweep the scum. Because against a team of KCC (as VT to boot) , TMCT(has turned into a strong player already), Rand (newbie extraordinaire, and strong contender for newbie of the year) the team of Kank (second game ever? never played as scum), Maokun (same as Kank), IB(first time as scum). The thing is: Wessel did not play badly here, he reread, he was devoted, he did some nice analysis, he used his status as confirmed town very well indeed (I loooved that tv show like analyses). But Wessel fell into some common pitfalls, he misread town scummy players for scum and he didn't notice the completely unnatural Kank buddying towards him as a red alert. I believe the misread of the scummy townies was the town's downfall here, and one mistake the townies should learn most. WHat differentiates scummy town from scummy scum is the intention, that's really hard to gauge I know, but when you ignore the "he used the word lure", "his claim doesn't have a comma" and iPot shyness and Shark recklessness ("I don't really care about sounding scummy, I post what comes into my mind, no brakes") you have little truly scummy about those guys. You need to pay attention to the intention, not the form, always ignore the form.
KittyCupCake
I'm forever indebted to KCC, game was imploding in a mass of replacements, and I had already burned through all my replacements and personal friends to join. So I resorted to her in a last ditch effort, because I needed a reliable player. I was kind feeling bad for releasing such a shark into a pool of fishes because I know basics are for newish players and KCC was far from it, I expected she probably would easily break the game given enough time (and I was correct) and be bored because of the nature of basics (she even relutantly joined because of this, but I hope she enjoyed this basic that was far from the run-of-the-mill basic). In the end KCC started slowly, she didn't do much despite catch Maokun early then promptly forget her reasons, then spent a while doing nothing (probably bored because basic, while expecting the draw the NK, that she did after all). Then I think something clicked on her, this game was not the usual basic, things were diff here, all her expectations were upside down and she was actually confused by a basic, then TMCT claimed and everything made sense again, she quickly understood what was happening, turned into confirmed townie and cleared both TMCT and Rhand, then it was just a matter of time, KCC was back into the fray and she was getting the bad guys (that she did in the end but it was too late). In the end KCC had the strongest showing here, I'm just not giving her the town MVP because, she did nothing out of the ordinary considering her experience, she just lived to her legacy, and that was beautiful to see.
Kank
Despite all the nominations here I don't think Kank was the strongest scum player here. He buddied pretty strangely to Wessel (remember town is paranoid, town should not fully believe in anyone no matter how close they are outside of the game). Kank was also pretty defeatist in the last part of the game and was caught by KCC and eventually Shark in the end. That being said this was Kank's first scum game, for he certainly did an astonishing job for this game. He was always active, he did the marvelous snap counterclaim of Mao (I never saw that coming, and if he didn't do that the scum would probably have lost as both of them were tied at that point, it was quite a nice play there imho). It's unfortunate (but expected, as to play as scum is very stressful) Kank got so stressed at this game he's taking an early leave. But I hope eventually he comes back, I quite enjoyed to have him here and he has big potential.
IB
It was close between all the scummies (I loved them all and this victory was certainly a victory against all odds!) but I want to award scum MVP to IB. Not because of his last day game (that frankly sucked and if he continued to play like that he could end up lynched himself). But because of his strong early, mid game. IB mastered a skill that even high experienced scum players have trouble with, he's not afraid to bus, and by bussing, I don't mean feigned weak bussing. He attacked scum HARD, like a townie would, he mimicked his town play very well despite playing dozens of game's as town and zero as scum (he fooled Eron, and that was not easy). Considering he was having real-life troubles as an excuse for his weak game ending and still managed to avoid much suspicion because of his early town credit and strong busing of Mao, I think he was the scum MVP.
I have already commented in the spectator chat about everyone else play, but I can certainly expand if you guys want, I just want to talk more about Rhand, because he was the town MVP.
I won't repeat everyone's else commentary about this strong showing, but I want to reveal some related things. When I designed this game, I knew the weak doctor was one of the pivotal forces in the town's arsenal. Playing him correctly he could even work as a cop of sorts, playing incorrectly he could both suicides himself while letting town with no clues or worse, clear a scum in the process. Making this role is very, very hard to pilot. I even spent days thinking to myself about how I would play the role, to no avail. Not even I had any idea the best way to pilot it, in the end I just decided to stop thinking about a problem I didn't have to prevent some headaches for myself. The problem was just Rhand's to solve. And he solved it in a magnificent way, by having access to his thought processes I saw he was stumbling in the same very problems I had imagined myself and some of my own solutions (I too thought about doing the twilight T/S list, this also was one of the minor reasons for the 24hours twilights). Rounds dedication and always high spirits have been very enjoyable to watch. Keep up the good work dude, you not only managed to hit correctly as doc in your very first game, but you also cleared quite a few townies along the way and never suicided. It's impressing how the D1 "easy mislynch" Rhand has blossomed so quickly into "mist NK strong analyst or lose" Rhand.
Another round of applause, now for our replacements (all of them kept their promise to me, to not replace out no matter out :D). I still have things to say, so next I'm going to talk about game design (mostly basic game design, I didn't forget your "this is not a role for a basic" Eron :D), LTR design, deadlines related stuff, mod related stuff, and the mafia crisis. Not now though.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Agree with my play initially. it was terrible and I admit I put little effort at that point. When MTGDDS fliped non-scum, I knew I was in deep trouble so I really did put out the effort and managed to put out really strong cases, but given my initial start plus iPot's non-strong play, I basically was doomed. I was able to convince KCC which did make me feel good there, but I could not convince the general body of town, and scum basically took easy way outs and made little effort to get me lynched.
@Wessel: You don't have to policy lynch everyone who buddies, but definitely look at the intentions of players, especially how much effort they put in the later the game gets. It will help your play tremendously. Also, put yourself into other players shoes during major turning points, such as Kank after the Mao lynched. He should have been confirmed town, but he failed to capitalize on that, which I wouldn't do if I were him. But you did well overall and good luck in future endeavors.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
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Clan RepresentativeOh, and it wasn't that I got stressed playing this game, it's just that I have too much else on my plate and these mafia games take a lot more time and commitment than I anticipated.
Certainly, I'm in debt with all my replacements, all of them did an amazing job of turning this game in a much better experience for everyone.
I agree with you, mafia does takes much more commitment that initially looks like. However as you mature more, you start to get a more carefree posture in relation to mafia, I'm not saying you should not care about your team, but this is just a game, it should be fun for all parties.
I know it's easy to say that from the outside and this advice is much harder to adopt the more responsible the player is, anyway this is a thumbs up for you, as you certainly have proved to be a man of liability here.
I will have to agree with Shark here, I mean, which scumtell is absolute? None, but I believe that putting effort(particularly at lylo) is a towntell more often than not. The scum doesn't have to reread the game, because they already know who's scum and who isn't. And you know the only two players that never did any rereads in mylo (and probably never)? Kank and IB. They both sit there pretty pretending to be doing something when in fact they weren't. You, KCC and Shark have proven to be at least trying rereading the game, trying to do something. In fact I agree with KCC here, Shark lynch should not have occurred given how hard he was playing and the solid content he was providing (mostly against Kank).
In case you don't know there are not much documentation about what a basic should be, we know that "mods can lie to the players" (that's actually an advice I like to follow in general) and that's it. On mafia scum all basics are semi-open setups, so the mods have no space to create anything. In salvation that's not the norm, however I never tried to create a "complex" game here. After discussing a bit with me reviewers I self-imposed some guidelines on how to create a nice and fun basics.
1)No new roles. Yeah, I didn't create any of those roles.
2)All roles should be easy to "grok", if a role had to be reread twice to be understood I had failed in this.
3)All roles should be "common" roles, so I could only get roles from here.
In the end I think I managed to create a nice setup, there's quite some combos out there. The weak doc and the innocent children, The tracker and the 3 scum with active night powers, the vanilla cop and the innocent child (that's just a vanilla in disguise, so it was not worth for a NK). It was a carefully crafted setup, one I'm quite proud of. However I do think TMCT role was a bit more complex than it should've been because he PMed me with doubts about what he could like four or so times.
about deadlines
I've come to a theory about what makes a game of mafia enjoyable and makes it unfun, and how the mod can prevent such situations. I believe one of the most important aspect of mafia is the pace of the game, players want to do stuff, town want to lynch their suspects, scum want to mislynch their targets, everyone loves flips and using their awesome powers to prove to everyone how they can make a difference, how they rule at mafia. Convincing people of your reads is one of the hardest parts of mafia.
And I don't think the usual deadlines help players in this aspect. From my experience what happen in games with deadlines: the day starts, people stand idle doing nothing, hopefully waiting for a cop result or some huge revelation to guide them, then suddenly the deadline approaches, then people start working in a hurry, they panic, votes are cast everywhere and in the end someone ends up lynched sometimes without even claiming, players feel powerless, they feel bad for waiting until the last moment (and when the coordination fails and it results in a no-lynch it's even worse) but they do the same in the next day, again and again.
It's not a secret I dislike the no-lynch deadlines, I feel they fail to provide what a game constanly needs: excitement!, blood, people actually doing something, actually when there's a deadline in place town usually likes to wait because "hey there's a deadline, it's very far, I don't need to do anything right now, let me do this other stuff here and when deadline is closer I will put some effort in this game again". In the end I think a lot of mafia games "die" because of inaction, because everyone is lazy and when you notice you can't get anything done because there's just a minority of people posting (and voting), the mod doesn't prod people nor does anything to make the game go forward, people get bored, then eventually ask to be replaced and even leave the site because "mafia is not for me, everything is so slow and stale". I also believe no-lynch deadlines promote one of the most toxic playstyle in mafia, the "saboteur" scum, the saboteur scum usually lurks, but not always. they spend their time trying to saboteur all wagons, they have no focus, they just want nothing to happen, they defend scummy townies to prevent their lynch, they also defend their buddies to prevent their lynches, they play scummy to derail other wagons, they divert from wagons, they create cases on players that have zero or little votes, they tunnel on players that are not getting lynched. They just promote dissension, not advancing the game state at the end trying to destroy the town by starvation. However with usual deadlines the mod has no way to prevent such despicable play because it works, and mods can't force players to play suboptimally on purpose. If it works it's valid.
The "majority lynch" deadline is much better because it doesn't actually promote this unfun scenario that strongly, as it's certain the game keeps progressing (the game need constant blood to keep players entertained). However I think it has the same fault of the other approach, it concentrates the work of the players in the few days that precedes a deadline, and bam there's the abrupt ending. When I devised the LTR I wanted it to accomplish two things; remind players there's a clock out there, the time is slowly ticking and if they don't work, they will be penalized for their laziness, hopefully this way town will work from the get got, not letting all discussion in the last few days before the deadline. The other idea is to make the game "warmer" as the time passes because the deadlines will get smaller, the punishment will get higher, so players need to get more and more engaged in the experience, they can't afford to ignore the game for sometime because if they do, the LTR will catch them pants down.
In the end I made the LTR time a little lower than usual because I expected Days to usually last a bit more than usual because LT-1 or 2 didn't make much difference in the early game. My predictions were completely off because no one gave a damn about the LTR, as the penalty for missing it was so low (vote reset and no one was actually lynched by LTR), players mostly ignored it. In the end, the final version of the LTR is mostly the same as the majority lynch deadline, with a bit of healthy leeway. It was not my intention to make it benefit town or scum, just to ensure the game maintained a pace all the time, and not only when near deadlines.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Clan RepresentativeAhem!
I actually spent many hours on this:
Count me in on the next game you host; I've had major fun in this one.
If someone does read my mentorchat: I'm all ears if you see big mistakes I made
I think ZDS did a fine job! My major mistakes were on questions I didn't know to ask. Also, the questions I did want to ask...ZDS was not allowed to answer. We both had several days break between communication. When I replaced in, I felt as though the game was waiting on me, and so I read everything through twice, taking notes, and made my play. In IRL game, a play like my first hammer is not a problem. Everyone knows what is going on in the room, everyone hears the conversation, and everyone gets reads and doesn't always need to make defenses before voting. Especially in majority consensus. That was my biggest learning curve...realizing that I needed to put thought trains, as completely as possible, in writing.
Can't wait for my next game, and I would be on board for ZDS or another mentor too.
Thanks to Ace of Spades for the Sig and avatar!!
My Decks
BSpanish InquisitionB
UWU/W StoneBladeWU
WUGBant NOGUW
BWDeadguy AleWB
Modern
WDeath and TaxesW
EDH
BBBalthor ReanimatorBB
GBWThe Rock / TenebWBG
BBMaralen ANT EDHBB
UUHeidar, Winter Is ComingUU
That's something of an understatement
As long as someone completely new to the game could look at these roles and understand what they do (which I think they could, minus maybe the innocent doc), then they're probably ok.
Yes, I think LTR is overly complicated for a basic. And no, it's not like mana burn at all; I completely agreed with the reasons for removing that when it was removed from magic. "When you reach this deadline, the day ends" is just far simpler than "when you reach this deadline, the lynch threshold will start to drop every few days until someone is lynched." And while I understand the upsides you are seeing, it just isn't basic material. -And the biggest reason why is because after the first ltr, lynches are no longer decided by majority. And that idea is the fundamental, basic concept of mafia -taking it out of a basic just feels wrong.
Point C is true, I'll give you that. There is no guarantee that IB would have been lynched the next day had I been NKed.
But point A is just wrong, and that's really where my issue with it comes from. -Had this been a normal deadline system, I could have put my foot down to Wessel saying, "Look, it takes four to lynch, and there are only four townies. Therefore, neither of us is getting a lynch on scum today without the other's vote. Since I'm not voting for Shark, and you aren't voting EtR, that leaves two options." This would have primarily insured that at least one of the scum got lynched, but it also would have forced Wessel to actually talk to me about my Shark read, rather than letting him simply ignore it, since he could just go behind my back and wait for the LTR.
As for the mistaken vote count, I thought the VC posted immediately before Wes's vote was incorrect as well. But, EtR voted after that, so, you're right, it really didn't matter.
They taught me a lot about how to use the lynch as town player and the JOAT had as big advantage that I've seen more night roles in action. The Doc being weak forced me to think more about my own night actions, which helped the learning process as well.
So from a learning perspective, I think this was a great setup.
Ganderin_Dan matches my thought process when DRey gave me what turned out to be the final draft. I agree Wessel's role was borderline, and in retrospect I think you are correct that the Mafia shouldn't be effectively punished for achieving a mislynch.
Ohh, that was a preoccupation I had from the start, I dislike players being penalized when mods use unique/new/uncommon roles, so when I decided to use these roles I was also deciding this should be a full reveal game. I think mafia players already have many problems going throught their heads and when they stumble upon "reporter, commander officer, weak doctor" and don't know what are those roles we are just creating a new problem for them, it's not fair.
It's awesome how you always manage to simplify things (Shark's case and now LTR) and you are correct, the LTR is slightly more complex than deadlines (both to explain and how it works), however I think the advantages highly surpass the drawbacks, including in basics because I don't think anyone is unable to understand it. I also disagree lynches aren't being decided by the majority, because they clearly still are.
You are being dense, no one has prevented you of saying such things, or trying hardest to convince Wessel of your reads, no one has also imposed to Wessel he should be ignoring your Shark read and stuck to his guns. This is mafia at it's core KCC! Both of you failed to convince each other before the deadline, scum capitalized on it. If Shark was indeed scum as Wessel was so sure of(and you were wrong) we certainly wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The truth of the situation is that both Eron and Wessel were fooled by the scum, you were correct but failed to convince them both them your read was better, therefore scum won because scum doesn't have to fool everyone all the time, they just have to fool part of the town, and they clearly did. I'm not saying this defeat is exclusively your fault (that would be stupid as you were the strongest in the end) but remember Mafia is a team game.
Thanks for the words, but if you think those roles were COMPLEX in a vacuum, I failed as a designer. I believe you (and the other guys) believe those roles are complex because of your previous experiences (from articles, other games, from the flash tutorial, or even from old basics you read), therefore mixing unfamiliarity with complexity. Again the only role I think was more complex than I envisioned was TMCT's and not by much.
I think you are being dense, if there's a role that I strongly believe should be more used in basics is the innocent children (and it's variants). This role accomplishes so much with so little it's not even funny.
a)It's a simple role to explain and understand.
b) It gives players a nice starting point for discussion from early on, this is particularly important in basics where most players don't really know how to ignite meaningful conversation neither scumhunt.
c)It's non-targeted, so it's even easier to use from the usual investigative roles in basics (tracker/watcher/cops).
d)It's FUN as hell, both Void and Wessel seemed to have a lot of fun with the role (correct me if I'm wrong guys). Wessel's "Sweet, now I can say scummy things as much as I want without anyone suspecting me, best feeling ever" was one of the best lines of the game imho. The role feels much stronger than it really is, and that's awesome.
e)It provides hard (and that's good) choices for the mafia: "do we kill the effectively VT that's confirmed town or do we try to hit the other power roles?"
Oh, you are quite wrong about this Eco, hahaha. Mafia (correctly) rejoiced when they "lynched" Wessel, as that mislynch was effectively a no-lynch for the town, a no-lynch with a slight upside but town spent their strongest power (the power to kill) just to confirm a vanilla townie, this is not usually a good trade, particularly when the other option at that time (Maokun) was scum.
I think the fact that all three scum were on Wessel's wagon just corroborates the idea this "mislynch" was beneficial for the scum (note that was a particularly easy mislynch they achieved without any repercussions for their team), maybe the scum can give their own opinion here, but to me they never felt oppressed by Wessel's role, in fact I think they managed to "use" that role quite well for them, they latched onto him as a "backup lynch" when Maokun's lynch was painted on the wall and got away with it.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Therefore I reserve the right to award this post with the "unfairest accusation of the year"
Anyway, I'm always open to discussion (this is what I love most about mafia, the clash of opinions) and if you would like to continue conversation I would love to, your opinion means much to me.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I imagine that most people, once exposed to that rule, would assume that it's an exception, and not a very common one at that.
The weak/innocent doc, however, creates too many decision trees/levels to operate on for a basic, IMO. Again, not a complex role (but I don't think any of them are, in a vacuum), but not one that may be appropriate for a basic where beginners need to be honing their behavioral analysis as opposed to letting the roles do the talking.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModProtection-wise, they have the weak doctor and the JOAT's one-shot. However, that protection can be blown to bits if they target a scum.
Investigation-wise, they have the weak doctor and one, maybe two, of the one-shots. However, if the weak doctor is being used for investigation, whatever method they use to communicate their targets can lead to an early death.
The innocent child is pretty much a vanilla townie that is wastes a lynch if it ever becomes active.
On the mafia side, there's a split-up roleblocker (which gives stability) and a vanilla cop.
It's effectively two power roles on each side, which I'm pretty sure is a mafia advantage.
Actually I know three variants of the role.
Innocent Child: At the start of the game the mod publicly reveals you are vanilla town.
Innocent Child variant 1(your role): Can ask the Mod at any point during the Day to publicly reveal his role and confirm his alignment."
Innocent Child variant 2(my role): When lynched the Mod publicly his role and confirm his alignment, lynch is reversed into a no-lynch instead."
I considered all of them but in the end decided for the second variant for power level reasons, it's the weakest of the bunch and the one that punished the town the most for mislynching a townie.
I think this role is much weaker than it looks, but boy this is an exciting role to be lol. Also ruining games is a overstatement, this role is too weak to ruin games.
I agree messing with lynches is very, very dangerous. That's the holy grail of mafia and most often than not mods mess up when they do it, I even agree it not basic material for the reasons ZDS provided. But we will have to agree to disagree with your second point, lynching this role does not benefit town at all, wasting a lynch just to confirm a VT is not worthwhile, if this town had not wasted a lynch on obvtown Wessel they probably would have won this game because they would have another chance after mislynching Shark.
Basics are not the place to hone behavioral skills Dan, basics are places to have fun in a balanced, simple and controlled environment. It's where we hook the new players into Mafia.
You know roles vary immensely in power Cyoni, saying "that's two power roles" means little without mentioning which roles.
That being said you just reminded an important thing. I use a modified Axel's pointing system to balance games, and I want to reveal how I balanced this particular game (if anyone is interested in the full list PM me, it's a work in progress and I love discussing it).
JOAT(5 points) + weak doc (3 points) + Prince (2 points) + 6 VT (1 point each)
MAFIA
vanilla cop (5 points) + even night roleblocker (5.5 points) + odd night roleblocker (5.5 points)
For comparison purposes
Tracker: 3 points
Doctor: 4.5 points
scum role-blocker: 6 points
scum Role cop: 5 points
Do you think I grossly misvalued any of the roles?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModMy thought's that the JOAT's grossly overcosted in your schemata.
You get one track, one redirect, and one jail. Combine that with the fact that as soon as all your shots are used, you're just a vanilla townie. My guess would be 3.5 points at most, and I really want to put 3 here.
I'd probably also drop the innocent townie to 1.5, as it wastes the town's greatest weapon.
Pointing, in this case, is slightly flawed. Even if all the points line up, the dynamics lend themselves to the scum. Pretty much the one protection role can blow themselves up, you've got very little in the way of investigative power, and the mafia can hunt power roles and has a stable roleblock. Oh, and that protective role has to hint who they're targeting, giving the mafia an easier time of it. Also, consider what the weak doctor can protect. In power roles, it has the JOAT and the innocent townie, only one of which is really a good pick when they're revealed.
One last thing - please recall my username has a 'u' in it.
Even if the JOAT was just 3 and the innocent just 1.5 game would still be balanced (because a 2 points difference does not make a game unbalanced,).
Some things you may have missed; The innocent is considered an investigative role; the vanilla cop could have gotten a "false" positive from the innocent;the vanilla cop is even weaker than the role cop but I put him with the same point;the two roleblockers give more stability but also are more susceptible to disruption (tracker, redirect, jail, double of chances of one of them dying);
In the end this is a low powered setup (by design), a low powered setup that looks much stronger than it looks but still, there are no unfair things the town could have done (no cop), so the roleblockers were mostly for show.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModHonestly, I'd rather have a pure tracker.
You had a total of 16 points. 13.5/16 is a pretty significant drop - approximately 15% in power difference.
The innocent works only when it's lynched - meaning town wastes a lynch to get that "investigation". That's pretty bad for an investigative role.
Yes, the vanilla cop can get a false positive from the innocent townie, but that just proves the fact that the innocent townie is terrible as a town power role. Saying one of the three power roles is a "false positive" means that there's really only two power roles on the town side.
Compared to the benefits of splitting up the roleblocker, the minor downsides caused by oneshots are negligible.
If all the mafia does is null town power roles, they have an advantage right there due to the extra knowledge.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I am fairly confident that most people will disagree with you here/you are mistaken. If they don't work on behavioral analysis in the "simple" games, when will they?
My point being that just a 2 diff for either town or scum is still acceptable, 2.5 is not however and I agree with you there.
Yes... that's why he's just a 2, a cop is a 6 for example and a tracker a 3. On the other hand 1.5 is way too low for him, 1.5 is effectively VT.
yes... he's terrible, that's why he's just a 2.
I agree, a roleblocker and a goon are just 10.5 points, two half roleblockers are 11, so slightly stronger.
Didn't understand this.
@Iso, Gdan This point is really hard to explain, because it looks like I'm an idiot for saying "basics are not the place to hone your skills", when they clearly are (everygame is a place of honing skills) so I will just give another example to explain my point better.
"FNMs are not the place to learn how to play magic"
While this looks like an absurd at first glance, this pov does have merits. Some players like to play competitively at all times, refusing takebacks, jedi mindtricking opps, being overall jerks at all levels. FNMs are the lowest level sanctioned magic player players can experiment, everyone is a newbie when they start playing magic and they need a non-competitive, fun, easy way to start, they have to be taught to improve and stuff before evolving further somewhere after all, while at first glance FNM's looks like the best place to train wannabe pro-players, it's actually not. Not every player has the drive nor the obligation to "evolve", I'm a firm believer FNMs should be very casual oriented and whenever I'm judging one and I see behaviors best seen at GPs, GPTs or PTQs I talk to the players and educate them, no one will ever turn pro playing FNM only nor they should be trying to. FNMs are tourneys where you should be having fun, I know most people have fun only when they are winning, but that's not an excuse for being an ******* at FNMs, of course you will improve your skills the more you play FNMs, but if you want to go to the next level, you should search for environments better suited to your needs: GPs, GPTs, PTQs.
Now replace FNM for basic, GP/GPTs for normal and PTQs/PT for speciality to better understand my point.
Also, I don't think I can be convinced here, because of my background I may view things differently from the majority, doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong, just that we are different, viva la diferença!
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModMy thought's that the difference needs to be compared with the total. Let's take two examples:
32.5 town, 35 scum
13.5 town, 16 scum
My main point's that any power difference is amplified in a smaller game.
If he didn't waste the lynch, I'd put him higher.
As it is, since he forces a lynch for a single "investigation", he pretty much actively hurts the town, especially the way this setup's designed. As well, he pretty much has to be lynched in a MyLo scenario. And in that scenario, the mafia will be immediately bumping off a power role.
Let's take a vanilla game as an example.
In a 12-person vanilla game, the general makeup is ten town and two scum. That's still generally considered to give a slight advantage to the scum due to the fact that they're working with full knowledge of who's scum.
So, in a 12-person basic, if the scum can nullify the power roles, they have a significant advantage right away.
The weak doc can kill himself (or is forced to reveal his targets), the JOAT has three shots, and the innocent town is underwhelming. The innocent town practically gives the mafia an extra night to hunt power roles by forcing his lynch.
On the mafia side, we have a divided roleblock and a vanilla cop, both of which make it pretty easy to shut down town power roles.
Once the town power roles are shut down, the mafia hold a significant advantage due to their extra knowledge of the game.