Rather than defending Kahedron's reasoning/statements, I would like to see KCC give a full synopsis of the other players. In the event that she is town (which I consider a VT Fishlegs to be completely plausible), I would like to have that to go by at least.
@KCC: In addition to your review of the other players, what is it specifically about WG that makes him "Probably Town" in your eyes?
Flavorgaming aside, why do you think she's town?
Also, you imply that either you disagree with KCC's assertion that WG is prob town, or you agree with it. Which is it, and why?
It's not that I think she's town, it's that I'm not completely convinced that she is scum. I'd rather the condemned have a chance to speak first before being sailed off on a flaming barge. I notice that both you and WG share a desire to lynch without the subject defending themselves first as well as a desire to completely disregard a claim of any kind. If we lynch KCC before she has a chance to fully speak and she turns out to be Vanilla Town - Fishlegs, then what do we gain from that? Oh yeah, you might tell us that come Day 2 after she's already dead.
I want to know what KCC feels about WG because I have been suspicious of his motives of late, much like I have been suspicious of yours.
I don't see how the green statements are consistent with the blue (including the one above). If you're that sure that she won't be town, then why does your read need to be verified on her?
(...)
I'm not seeing why. I really can't see a reason you'd need to. If he's scummy enough to lynch, why would his replacement's reads matter?
I'm pretty convinced that KCC/Kahedron is scum based on Kahedron replacing out under pressure and the posts that lead to that. However, after reading Kahedron's posts myself, I find myself simply agreeing with the analysis put together by other players. Since this analysis is secondhand, and I'm not an experienced player, I'm a little worried that I'm being too accepting of other people's reads. As a result, I'm hoping to analyze the reads KCC will be providing myself. If I can see scummy motivation/phrasing/etc then my uneasiness is relieved and I can vote KCC confident that my independent analysis is matching up to reads possibly affected by other player's analysis.
If there's not much she can say that would convince us, where's the value? That's my main issue.
Other than allowing me to vote confidently, holding off on lynching KCC until we have her reads gets us:
- More posts to analyze. These should contain further scumtells than may convince the people currently not voting.
- In case KCC is actually town, we'll have a set of guaranteed townie reads to compare with our own for Day 2.
- Regardless of how KCC flips, how other players interacted with her during her posts today will be useful to analyze going forwards.
Lynching her immediately on the other hand get us (based on your earlier post):
- Less time for her talk her way out of the lynch
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm convinced that if she's really scum and we're properly analyzing everything she says this is pretty unlikely.
Secondly, I believe I demonstrated that the benefits of one outweighed the possibility of killing a townie. Although, that won't be a problem because she's not town.
I think a word or two was lost here, because I'm not clear what you're saying you demonstrated the benefits of.
As for the "secret information", it's not secret. It's actually common knowledge. But I don't want people to realize the situation I have until twilight or early Day 2. Like I said, you guys will have to trust me.
If you guys REALLY want me to say before then, we can take a vote. If I do have to say it early, it may affect the situation.
I don't feel like you need to reveal it if its disadvantageous to do so, mostly because you're not using this information as a reason to push anything.
Quote from K-j »
Given the most recent votecount, are you still not willing to vote KCC? If still no, why not? If you want to now, is the amount of votes on her what changed your mind? And if not, why?
unvote; vote KCC
Ultimately, I believe my vote will go on KCC regardless of the responses I recieve to my questions for her. I find it unlikely that she isn't scum based on Kahedron's actions, and her early response with the T/S list has already looked sketchy. Knowing that there is some leeway for me to ask questions and for us to hear her reads before her lynch makes a big difference (for the reasons I stated in the list above).
@KCC:
So you agree with the contents of W_G's quote other than the fact that you're not scum?
Quote from Wheat_Grinder »
Brief summation: I killed RVS with a double switcheroo gambit that supposedly caught DKD scum for it, but his answers were decent enough that he's no longer scum in my eyes. Kahedron (well, you now) is scum and MechMech is scum by association. Cellion and Polski are town.
Since you're all caught up on reading, could you please explain your reads on Pikachugundam, MechanicalMech and Kill-joy and why you think they're scum?
Rather than defending Kahedron's reasoning/statements, I would like to see KCC give a full synopsis of the other players. In the event that she is town (which I consider a VT Fishlegs to be completely plausible), I would like to have that to go by at least.
@KCC: In addition to your review of the other players, what is it specifically about WG that makes him "Probably Town" in your eyes?
Flavorgaming aside, why do you think she's town?
Also, you imply that either you disagree with KCC's assertion that WG is prob town, or you agree with it. Which is it, and why?
It's not that I think she's town, it's that I'm not completely convinced that she is scum. I'd rather the condemned have a chance to speak first before being sailed off on a flaming barge. I notice that both you and WG share a desire to lynch without the subject defending themselves first as well as a desire to completely disregard a claim of any kind. If we lynch KCC before she has a chance to fully speak and she turns out to be Vanilla Town - Fishlegs, then what do we gain from that? Oh yeah, you might tell us that come Day 2 after she's already dead.
I want to know what KCC feels about WG because I have been suspicious of his motives of late, much like I have been suspicious of yours.
She can say whatever she likes. There's not a whole lot she can say that would convince me at this point.
As far as disregarding the claim... she claimed Vanilla. I share TheColdMonarch's philosophy in this case.
And like I've said before... I HIGHLY doubt she will flip town. But I'll play DA here. If she does flip town, then obviously we gain nothing except <redacted> from her lynch. (Seriously, if you wanna know... take a vote. In fact, I'll start it for you).
Everyone: Yay or Nay: I want KJ to tell us this "secret" he's been holding off telling us right now.
I'd prefer not to, but I will if it's asked of me. We just gain less information that way.
Re Wheat: Is that the only reason you're suspicious? Due to recent events? Or is there more to it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm pretty convinced that KCC/Kahedron is scum based on Kahedron replacing out under pressure and the posts that lead to that. However, after reading Kahedron's posts myself, I find myself simply agreeing with the analysis put together by other players. Since this analysis is secondhand, and I'm not an experienced player, I'm a little worried that I'm being too accepting of other people's reads. As a result, I'm hoping to analyze the reads KCC will be providing myself. If I can see scummy motivation/phrasing/etc then my uneasiness is relieved and I can vote KCC confident that my independent analysis is matching up to reads possibly affected by other player's analysis.
That's actually a good way to go, taking the reads of the more experienced players with a grain of salt. I made that mistake in my first game.
Other than allowing me to vote confidently, holding off on lynching KCC until we have her reads gets us:
- More posts to analyze. These should contain further scumtells than may convince the people currently not voting.
- In case KCC is actually town, we'll have a set of guaranteed townie reads to compare with our own for Day 2.
- Regardless of how KCC flips, how other players interacted with her during her posts today will be useful to analyze going forwards.
Lynching her immediately on the other hand get us (based on your earlier post):
- Less time for her talk her way out of the lynch
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm convinced that if she's really scum and we're properly analyzing everything she says this is pretty unlikely.
The more I read these, the more I think I'm being selfish and tunnely. Just cuz I'm convinced doesn't mean everyone else is. I should really think about that more than my own opinion on the matter.
The bolded are really good reasons I hadn't considered. So, I find myself wanting to at least give her the chance to provide her reads.
I think a word or two was lost here, because I'm not clear what you're saying you demonstrated the benefits of.
Essentially I meant to say that I had demonstrated that the benefits of lynching Kahedron before replacement (due to his scumminess) outweighed the benefits of holding out in the unlikely chance he was town. But obviously that holds less weight now that he was replaced, and that I'm willing to give KCC a little slack.
I don't feel like you need to reveal it if its disadvantageous to do so, mostly because you're not using this information as a reason to push anything.
unvote; vote KCC
Ultimately, I believe my vote will go on KCC regardless of the responses I recieve to my questions for her. I find it unlikely that she isn't scum based on Kahedron's actions, and her early response with the T/S list has already looked sketchy. Knowing that there is some leeway for me to ask questions and for us to hear her reads before her lynch makes a big difference (for the reasons I stated in the list above).
Ok.
@KCC: I would like to echo other's desires for a T/S list with reasons.
Not much else to ask that other's haven't already asked and that isn't covered by "T/S list with reasons".
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm all about more posts to analyze, no matter which direction KCC is bound to flip. I feel like I'll learn more from KCC and her point of view than seeing who was on/off her wagon come Day 2. I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips, but please, let's at least learn what we can from this new player before we go from replacement to dead new player without gaining any new information from her for the future.
Re: Wheat--If you haven't noticed, I've been wary of his erratic behavior all game. This whole "Let's lynch KCC before she can say anything" that kill-joy and WG have been spearheading is not digesting well with me.
If KCC ends up flipping scum after all, then I give everyone permission to get pissy with me come Day 2 for being such a stalwart fencesitter today (if I survive the night).
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller/AWA - Null read. Needs to post more. And so does the replacement.
4. Archae - Leaning town for analysis.
5. pikachugundam - Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Null. Needs to post more than 1 liners. Lurking perhaps?
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for lying. First said that he would not provide analysis until people unvoted him, then comes back and says it was because he really hadn't had the time. Well, was it the first or the second and if the second why even say the first?
10. Polski - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I would really like to see KCC's reasoning before casting a vote and would appreciate it if no one else voted for her until she has time to post such seeing as she is at L-2.
@kill-joy: Don't reveal what you've supposedly got until you have to. Twilight Today, preferably.
@pika: You're taking my posts way out of context and misinterpreting/misrepresenting what actually happened. I needed people off my case so I could spend some time analyzing instead of having to defend myself every other minute from new attacks.
One question for DKD: What direction did you intend for pressure to go?
I have been spending the majority of my time defending myself. I would prefer to have the issue of my playstyle (as I feel that's the reason I'm in the situation I'm in) dealt with and over before I continue pursuing lines of inquiry.
I don't care what you would prefer. The answer to this question is important.
We differ on what we deem "important." My survival is highly important - to more than just my pride - and I'm not going to muddle my defense. The primary reason I've been called into question is my chosen method of play and pursuit. Why would I start it up again before I have quelled all of the doubt it mustered up the first time? Once two more people unvote me, I will post some analysis.
@DKD:
Your response skirts around several of my points, and really doesn't give particularly good answers for the rest. The following paragraph stuck out to me:
I'm reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!".
Sure your actions have generated a lot of posts, but almost none of them talked about Tezz. Instead the posts your actions generated were mostly discussing how scummy your post was. If you're town, you have us barking up the wrong tree. Why so emphatic in taking credit for that?
I'm sorry if there was something I missed when responding or if you feel I glazed over something you think particularly important. If you have a specific concern, just ask me and I'll answer it straight.
DKD, I feel like you're being suprisingly evasive for someone who is supposed to be town. In my post you quote above, I've both pointed out a scummy phrasing and explained why I think its scummy. You quote it, but don't even mention it in your response. Instead, you state I need to provide you with specific concerns for you to address. This happened multiple times in response to my previous post(your response is in #122), and I gives me the feeling that you're simply skipping over parts you don't want to address.
If you're town, providing a counter-argument for each of the points can only help you, and it should be easy to do, since it simply involves explaining the truth.
On a different and unrelated note, its sad to see activity in this game die down so quickly.
I tried to counter every point made against me - hence why I responded by cutting up the quotes instead of handling each of them all at once. As to your point of reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!" it was meant for sarcasm: I was trying to pressure Tezz into giving me something to read into. I accomplished my goal of getting something to read into, but obviously not in the way I was hoping.
This reply is not a town response. Refusing the question I could understand, but threatening that people should unvote you before you provide analysis? That is not a townie way of thinking.
It wasn't a threat. It was a promise (cliche I know, but appropriate). A show of good faith. Give me some credit here. I've spent every RL minute I have to spend on this game defending myself from attack after attack. I haven't had time to delve into analysis of anything yet. Tomorrow I will (between work) go through and dive into scumhunting head first.
Bolding mine. I see no need to have included that first part about needing people to unvote you first. Simply saying the second part that you didn't have time would have been sufficient. Wheat may have given a pass on that, but if anything that was a very anti-town thing to say. So in other words, your responses to defend yourself weren't that great, so I'm still suspicious.
@KJ: If the information is not vital, twilight is fine. If you find us lynching someone else, but the information will be relevant, then share it.
Brief summation: I killed RVS with a double switcheroo gambit that supposedly caught DKD scum for it, but his answers were decent enough that he's no longer scum in my eyes. Kahedron (well, you now) is scum and MechMech is scum by association. Cellion and Polski are town.
Close enough. You're wrong on Kahedron though (not that I blame you for it).
Kank is still waiting for:
WG & KJ to assess each other objectively.
Allwinapprentice's read.
More details from KCC.
I will do so...probably tomorrow or Friday. Not sure which; I kinda feel like being lazy today since I finished my last midterm and don't have to study too hard for a week or so.
I'm all about more posts to analyze, no matter which direction KCC is bound to flip. I feel like I'll learn more from KCC and her point of view than seeing who was on/off her wagon come Day 2. I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips, but please, let's at least learn what we can from this new player before we go from replacement to dead new player without gaining any new information from her for the future.
(...)
If KCC ends up flipping scum after all, then I give everyone permission to get pissy with me come Day 2 for being such a stalwart fencesitter today (if I survive the night).
I'm not liking the "I'm fine with her dying regardless of how she flips"... it reads as if you're fine with her flipping town. Also, you seem to be implying that you'd be okay with voting her (obviously at a later time), but the remainder of your post avoids ever saying so.
Overall, my impression reading this post was that you're still undecided about KCCs alignment, but you're not planning on analyzing her posts Today to determine what alignment you feel she is. Instead you take her lynch for granted and focus on getting her "point of view" (dismissing who was on her wagon as unimportant in comparison). This kind of behavior doesn't strike me as particularly town.
Also, if you say something like "I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips" I get the feeling that you're for her lynch, in contrast to the rest of your post.
Can you explain why you're taking this stance?
Also, In the above post, why do you feel that you'll learn more Tomorrow by paying attention to KCC's point of view than by analyzing who is on her wagon?
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
Do you not consider replacing out when under pressure from other players a scumtell?
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I read this "massive amounts of text and analysis", found it completely opposite to my impressions, and with some skepticism went back to look over Kank's posts. While Kank has been a fairly frequent poster (looks like ~10-15% of the posts over the last few days), I wouldn't say that his individual posts have had large amounts of text. More importantly, I see a lot of questions, but not a whole lot of analysis. In fact, looking back on the last 10 or so posts from Kank, not a single one takes the responses to the questions he's asked and makes any conclusions from them. I'd argue that instead of "massive amounts of analysis" he's keeping his cards close to his chest.
How did you end up with this conclusion?
Also, your town reads are all "leaning town for analysis". Do you think scum can't also be active and post analysis?
I'd like to see KCC elaborate on all her reads, but mostly the scum reads. Seeing PG on there is.. confusing.
I'm eager to see Allwin post content, primarily because his predecessor left us with nothing. I know how finals can be so I'm not pushing it but I'd definitely like to see it.
I'll start with MM, since he has the fewest posts to go through.
The first thing I'd like to emphasize, is that while the case presented so far is good, it's slightly off the mark in the relationship to my role. This will be very important to remember tomorrow, if you go through with lynching me today, because I don't want you all sweeping this case under the rug once I flip town -remember, it still holds water, keep your focus here.
@Kahedron If you hadn't voted DKD, you wouldn't have to worry about a new player voting and a surprise lynch. This seems an altogether bad play on your part. You could easily explain L-2 = full claim without all this nonsense.
Mech claims to have a slight scum read on K, but none of this language reads that way. "Nonsense" and "bad play" aren't accusatory words, they are words you throw at someone you think is town and making mistakes. -And while there would certainly be reasons for MM to try making a statement like this if K was a scumbuddy, they are just as likely to come from scum trying to paint a townie in a bad light.
The important thing to focus on here is the disconnect between the words, actions, and claimed mindset. They are all off, regardless of my alignment, which makes MM likely scum.
@pikachugundam Right, you say that only outside of a Basic (this is a Basic right?) this behavior can be considered scummy. I believe that it can be considered scummy in a Basic, right now, as well.
Even though pika explained why being helpful with game reminders is a clear non-tell in basics, MM ignores that to stretch some more negative attention onto K.
Important things to note here:
1) Basics are primarily teaching tools; explaining things midgame here is not a tell, and this is doubly true for someone like Kahedron, who lives over in the Rulings Forum. (This part is less about MM's alignment than just being something that needs to be said -I understand that MM's being new would make him not fully aware of this, though his dismissing of pika's explanation is still scummy.)
2) This quote is further evidence that MM's scumminess is not reliant on my being scum, as popular opinion currently holds. -If K was a scumbuddy, why would MM smear him here like this? Why not instead let pika alleviate some of the pressure without comment? If you lynch me today, gold star this post for tomorrow, because this was horrible mudslinging from MM.
3) This part might be harder to explain, but there is some slight evidence towards pika and MM being scumbuddies here. This will only ever become important if one of them flips scum at some point, but if that happens, look back here. The phrasing and attitude in this quote is a bit too chummy considering that MM is arguing against pika's point. It's subtle though, so you may have to reread it a few times to see what I mean.
I understand that Kahedron contradicted himself and deserves some attention, but DKD did exactly what WG did immediately after WG caught flak for his gambit. Does this merit no attention?
While a case could be made for MM deflecting from K here, it's not the only analysis that can be done on this post. If MM thinks DKD did exactly what WG did, why is he pushing DKD for it, but not WG? This again points to an inconsistent mindset.
-I believe Kahedron to be scum. I still believe DKD is the lynch for today. One of the games I have finished reading is Flame Warriors Mafia. In it, Iso started out with a crazy terrible gambit and ended up day-killing a town. No one ever actually got over it and he was eventually lynched because of it.
Why did this not receive more attention? -MM compares DKD to a townie who was mislynched in another game, and appears to state that as a reason DKD should be lynched here. I don't believe this post could come from a townie. If anything, since MM has that Flame Warriors experience, he should be second guessing a DKD lynch.
This is similar to what is happening with DKD. DKD ran a terrible gambit, refused to claim, and (this final point is assuming he is town) distracted the town from the actual scum. I can't fully get behind any other wagon until this is dealt with.
Again, MM is perfectly happy to let WG go, but wants to policy lynch DKD for running a gambit. -And MM even says he still wants to go through with the lynch if DKD is town, going so far as to have one of the three reasons he lists for wanting DKD lynched hinging on him being town (and really, it's two of the reasons, because DKD's "gambit" would instead be a "mistake then backpedaling" if DKD is scum.)
Also, don't get me wrong here, I don't think these have anything to do with WG's alignment. I'm just pointing out the mindset issues in regard to DKD.
Can I get a general amount of games you've played?
I would direct you to my blog for my mafia stats, but they seem to be down atm. I'd guess around 30 or so games here, and hundreds more between IRC and IRL.
-And I have some more time, so pika next.
This is analysis of every one of pika's posts, in full. -I usually shy away from complete PBPAs, but I did this one this way, because it's the best way to illustrate the issue:
I this is my second game currently (and my first game is still running actually... King of the Hill mafia). I have played mafia on IRC and I have also played Werewolf. I was coerced into doing King of the Hill mafia before doing a basic, so I'm just going to flounder around like I did there.
Alright... Since this game is a lot easier to read, I'll review this one first...
1. Kahedron - Leaning town since he's been trying to give helpful hints to all the newbs.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller - Null read. Needs to post more.
4. Archae - Null read. Needs to post more.
5. pikachugundam -Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Leaning town for trying to contribute.
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning town for analysis.
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for aforementioned actions and having not responded to the accusations yet.
10. Polski - Slightly leaning scum for an OMGUS vote. Albeit it was RVS... It was still an OMGUS vote. I know what you're thinking... Kank did the same thing, why not call him on that? Well, Kank and Wheat know each other making it less of a crime in my eyes... Content hasn't been that great either...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
@Storyteller: Why don't you do like I'm doing & put up a T/S list?
@Tezz: Why'd you feel the need to repeat 'I don't like this' when quoting Kahedron in [/url]this post[/url]?
@Kill-joy: As opposed to letting DKD lurk, this early in the game, why not ask that he be replaced instead of letting him slide to the backburner?
This is his first content.
He makes a decent suggestion to ST, then asks two other minor questions.
And the t/s list here is mostly meaningless, consisting almost entirely of town reads, excepting only two low posters as null, a weak scum read on a RVS vote, and the only scum being the main suspect of the thread. -Though, it's not terrible for this early in the game.
10. Polski - Slightly leaning scum for an OMGUS vote. Albeit it was RVS... It was still an OMGUS vote. I know what you're thinking... Kank did the same thing, why not call him on that? Well, Kank and Wheat know each other making it less of a crime in my eyes... Content hasn't been that great either...
Can you quote the OMGUS? I don't see it.
Also, how is a RVS (ergo probably not serious) OMGUS indicitive of alignement? @Storyteller: same question.
@Kill-joy: As opposed to letting DKD lurk, this early in the game, why not ask that he be replaced instead of letting him slide to the backburner?
That still requires waiting for him to lurk enough to get replaced. Besides, if he hasn't answered by a certain point then he gets replaced anyway. Why just sit here and wait for that to happen when we can be doing other things?
1. I think in a basic game trying to help the newbs is a town thing to do so there aren't any misunderstandings of game state. Outside a basic it can be both town (to help prevent misunderstandings) or scum thing to do to make it look like you're posting content when you're really not.
7. He's trying to post analysis as oppose to not. It's not as great as Kank, Celion or WG though. So it shows a townie mentality for the effort.
9. Most of the time scum lurk to avoid having to post content (and slips). Granted town can lurk too cuz of IRL stuff, but lurking is a scum tactic.
10. RVS voting is not indicative of alignment. It's just an OMGUS vote right off the bat even in RVS does not sit that well with me. Polski could have voted for anyone for any awful reason, but chose to vote for the person that voted for him... feels off...
12. I know just because Seppel said it doesn't always mean it's right... But usually massive walls of back and forth between players with good analysis means that they're both likely town.
@Kill-Joy: Is it a given that early lurkers will be replaced? I just thought it was odd that you didn't mention it the first time around.
@Polski: I only have you as slightly leaning scum which is very close to null since you've tried to post analysis as well. From the get-go that RVS vote has not sat well with me. Granted as a new player, it's more of a null read at this point. Also, there's a difference between having not posted content at all from posting not that great content... And I've been V/LA for the holiday... hence no content.
@MechMech: Mudslinging is frowned upon since either side can do it. And there's no reason that in a game you should have to resort to indecency (flaming).
Here, he mostly responds to questions. His answers to 1, 7, 9, and 12 are okay. 10 is a little weak, but again, fine for this stage of the game.
He also asks another minor question to kj, and then backs away a bit from one of his only scum reads, in a way that almost reads like an apology.
@Archae: The fact that Polski OMGUS voted still doesn't sit well with me, which is why he's only slightly sitting on my scumdar. He is otherwise a null read. I do not believe he is actively lurking, but is likely just newb. Call it a gut read if you'd like. I'm not trying to throw random suspicion on him for no reason since he's closer to null than scum. If you don't like my reads, then that's fine with me. That's just my opinion. Why don't you post a t/s list for us to go through as well?
@Kank: Fact of the matter is that he still did it. Whether anyone else wishes to read into it as I have is up to them.
And again, he downgrades his read even further into an otherwise null read, barely on his scumdar. I could see this coming from nervous, unsure town, except that, "if you don't like my reads, then that's fine with me," as well as the response to Kank, are a little too direct and confident for that. I could also see this coming from a townie with just the slightest read, as he claims, but then why not probe Pol more (or at all)?
I'm glad to see dropkickdude back in the game.
We could sure use some Kahedron up in herrrrre!
@PG: Basing your read on Polski using his RVS vote on me in Post#5 is likely to be a wild goose chase. I definitely didn't take it as an OMGUS vote of any kind. Odds are that no matter who I voted for, he would have voted for me simply because I snuck my post in before Void said "Don't post yet!"
I would have likely done the exact same thing to whomever else would have posted in that spot in my place.
Now I'm going to be very busy with work over the next few weekdays, so don't expect any heavy analysis from me until possibly this weekend even, as I'll only have time to pop in for a few minutes here and there.
@Archae: This is what I was referring to. Basically, despite what people might think, Polski's first RVS vote still doesn't sit well with me. [/reiterate]
1. I think in a basic game trying to help the newbs is a town thing to do so there aren't any misunderstandings of game state. Outside a basic it can be both town (to help prevent misunderstandings) or scum thing to do to make it look like you're posting content when you're really not.
Other thoughts this far: I believe pikachugundam is incorrect in believing that it is town to help newbs. That would provide an opportunity for scum to post without making themselves vulnerable - active lurking.
@MechMech: Yeah... I'll just leave that there...
And I guess I'm also waiting to hear from Kahedron and DKD to see what they're responses are to everyone's thoughts on their play...
Just minor clarification responses to Arch and MM.
The lack of anything here is especially important, considering that the clear attitude pika has when responding to MM here really should have something more following it up.
I didn't think it'd been that long since I posted, but I guess it has been. I'm still waiting for Kahedron to post, but DKD has posted stuff and I'm convinced enough from his responses to hold off on my vote on him for now. DKD's analysis was pretty good, but I don't know how much water it'll hold. And with this post I lose my 1337 posts...
And here, pika is still doing nothing, while also backing away from his only scum read, and fence-sitting on DKD's analysis as an added bonus.
@Cellion: While I myself haven't finished reading it, a couple of experienced players from my other ongoing game recommended it as a good read for new players. Since this is a basic full of mostly new players, I felt obliged to share. It also has WG and Tezz (and Void even) playing, so I thought it would be exciting.
And now I am sad that Kahedron is being replaced because I was waiting for him to defend himself... So now we have to wait for Storyteller and Kahedron to be replaced.
@Cellion: MechMech is supposedly being mentored this game though I don't know if the mentor is being helpful at all.
@MechMech: Are you talking to your mentor? Cuz some of the questions you're asking us sound like they could be directed to him instead.
@Kank: I think I'm going to need to see this explanation from Kill-Joy. You raise a very good point about how he responded to votes on DKD and now differently to votes on Kahedron. Only thing that comes to mind is that Kahedron is getting replaced now or Kahedron's posts somehow sum up more scummy than DKD's.
Some chat about mentors.
And then some actual content in response to kank: noting a good point :thumbsup:, wanting to see an explanation :thumbsup:, and then... defending kj :thumbsdown:, and providing a possible excuse for him to use :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:.
@AWA & KCC: There's only 13 pages... so it shouldn't take too long to reread. After you both catch up, would you please share your thoughts on the progress of the game? I guess a T/S list may help as well.
@Viking Mod: What happens to all the votes on Kahedron as well as his vote cast now that he has been replaced?
Guess I should have done that the first time around...
Nothing but asking for content that is obviously coming (though most of the thread did that repeatedly, so :shrug:)
@KCC: Am I scum based on POE? Or do you actually have a case for me? If you actually have a case, this I gotta see.
@Viking Mod: I thought Archae Unvoted...
It's a mix of POE from my town reads, and your active lurking, lack of scumhunting, and non-committal stances on everything, including backing away from your few scum reads.
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller/AWA - Null read. Needs to post more. And so does the replacement.
4. Archae - Leaning town for analysis.
5. pikachugundam - Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Null. Needs to post more than 1 liners. Lurking perhaps?
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for lying. First said that he would not provide analysis until people unvoted him, then comes back and says it was because he really hadn't had the time. Well, was it the first or the second and if the second why even say the first?
10. Polski - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I would really like to see KCC's reasoning before casting a vote and would appreciate it if no one else voted for her until she has time to post such seeing as she is at L-2.
Here we have, somehow, an even worse t/s list than at the beginning of the game. Still lots of town reads, but less, in favor of lots more null reads. And one weak scum read. At this stage of the day, that lack of reads is not okay, especially when combined with the lack of doing anything to get better reads.
One question for DKD: What direction did you intend for pressure to go?
I have been spending the majority of my time defending myself. I would prefer to have the issue of my playstyle (as I feel that's the reason I'm in the situation I'm in) dealt with and over before I continue pursuing lines of inquiry.
I don't care what you would prefer. The answer to this question is important.
We differ on what we deem "important." My survival is highly important - to more than just my pride - and I'm not going to muddle my defense. The primary reason I've been called into question is my chosen method of play and pursuit. Why would I start it up again before I have quelled all of the doubt it mustered up the first time? Once two more people unvote me, I will post some analysis.
@DKD:
Your response skirts around several of my points, and really doesn't give particularly good answers for the rest. The following paragraph stuck out to me:
I'm reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!".
Sure your actions have generated a lot of posts, but almost none of them talked about Tezz. Instead the posts your actions generated were mostly discussing how scummy your post was. If you're town, you have us barking up the wrong tree. Why so emphatic in taking credit for that?
I'm sorry if there was something I missed when responding or if you feel I glazed over something you think particularly important. If you have a specific concern, just ask me and I'll answer it straight.
DKD, I feel like you're being suprisingly evasive for someone who is supposed to be town. In my post you quote above, I've both pointed out a scummy phrasing and explained why I think its scummy. You quote it, but don't even mention it in your response. Instead, you state I need to provide you with specific concerns for you to address. This happened multiple times in response to my previous post(your response is in #[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9379668&postcount=122"]122[/URL]), and I gives me the feeling that you're simply skipping over parts you don't want to address.
If you're town, providing a counter-argument for each of the points can only help you, and it should be easy to do, since it simply involves explaining the truth.
On a different and unrelated note, its sad to see activity in this game die down so quickly.
I tried to counter every point made against me - hence why I responded by cutting up the quotes instead of handling each of them all at once. As to your point of reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!" it was meant for sarcasm: I was trying to pressure Tezz into giving me something to read into. I accomplished my goal of getting something to read into, but obviously not in the way I was hoping.
This reply is not a town response. Refusing the question I could understand, but threatening that people should unvote you before you provide analysis? That is not a townie way of thinking.
It wasn't a threat. It was a promise (cliche I know, but appropriate). A show of good faith. Give me some credit here. I've spent every RL minute I have to spend on this game defending myself from attack after attack. I haven't had time to delve into analysis of anything yet. Tomorrow I will (between work) go through and dive into scumhunting head first.
Bolding mine. I see no need to have included that first part about needing people to unvote you first. Simply saying the second part that you didn't have time would have been sufficient. Wheat may have given a pass on that, but if anything that was a very anti-town thing to say. So in other words, your responses to defend yourself weren't that great, so I'm still suspicious.
@KJ: If the information is not vital, twilight is fine. If you find us lynching someone else, but the information will be relevant, then share it.
@KCC: Still waiting for response...
This, however, is probably the best post pika has made all game. It's small, but it at least looks like analysis, and asks what could be a scumhunting question.
Overall, pika is my weakest read. The lack of real content, and avoidance of the main issues, from one of the game's top posters is worth noting, but it could potentially come from nervous/cautious town. However, there are some bits noted above which demonstrate an attitude that leads me away from that conclusion being the most likely explanation. -So, I'm leaning scum, but pika, if you are town, please get more involved.
I will get to kj, and some explanation of my town reads as well, soon, probably tomorrow.
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
Do you not consider replacing out when under pressure from other players a scumtell?
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I read this "massive amounts of text and analysis", found it completely opposite to my impressions, and with some skepticism went back to look over Kank's posts. While Kank has been a fairly frequent poster (looks like ~10-15% of the posts over the last few days), I wouldn't say that his individual posts have had large amounts of text. More importantly, I see a lot of questions, but not a whole lot of analysis. In fact, looking back on the last 10 or so posts from Kank, not a single one takes the responses to the questions he's asked and makes any conclusions from them. I'd argue that instead of "massive amounts of analysis" he's keeping his cards close to his chest.
How did you end up with this conclusion?
Also, your town reads are all "leaning town for analysis". Do you think scum can't also be active and post analysis?
1. The situation would have been different if Kahedron asked to be replaced under pressure, but the fact that he up and left without a trace for a while (only to show up back in the Crafters clan thread saying he was without internet at his parents). It's more null to me than a scum tell.
12. Kank early on posted massive amounts of text which had some analysis. I didn't bother changing it since my read on Kank hadn't changed. It's suppose to read as 'massive amounts of text' (which according to Seppel is a townie read) and 'analysis' not 'massive amounts of analysis' as well...
@KCC: This is my second game which is concurrent with my first game... I'm doing the best I can. Will get to your PBPA in a second...
I'm all about more posts to analyze, no matter which direction KCC is bound to flip. I feel like I'll learn more from KCC and her point of view than seeing who was on/off her wagon come Day 2. I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips, but please, let's at least learn what we can from this new player before we go from replacement to dead new player without gaining any new information from her for the future.
(...)
If KCC ends up flipping scum after all, then I give everyone permission to get pissy with me come Day 2 for being such a stalwart fencesitter today (if I survive the night).
I'm not liking the "I'm fine with her dying regardless of how she flips"... it reads as if you're fine with her flipping town. Also, you seem to be implying that you'd be okay with voting her (obviously at a later time), but the remainder of your post avoids ever saying so.
Overall, my impression reading this post was that you're still undecided about KCCs alignment, but you're not planning on analyzing her posts Today to determine what alignment you feel she is. Instead you take her lynch for granted and focus on getting her "point of view" (dismissing who was on her wagon as unimportant in comparison). This kind of behavior doesn't strike me as particularly town.
Also, if you say something like "I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips" I get the feeling that you're for her lynch, in contrast to the rest of your post.
Can you explain why you're taking this stance?
Also, In the above post, why do you feel that you'll learn more Tomorrow by paying attention to KCC's point of view than by analyzing who is on her wagon?
With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
@KCC: Thank you for posting your assessments! I look forward to your kill-joy review more than anything right now!
Also, if you are indeed town, are you willing to take one for the team and be the martyr of Day 1 so that we can take what we can from your death and use that to hunt down the villains come Day 2, or would you rather try to stay alive at any cost and convince everyone to jump on a different wagon instead?
This is analysis of every one of pika's posts, in full. -I usually shy away from complete PBPAs, but I did this one this way, because it's the best way to illustrate the issue:
I this is my second game currently (and my first game is still running actually... King of the Hill mafia). I have played mafia on IRC and I have also played Werewolf. I was coerced into doing King of the Hill mafia before doing a basic, so I'm just going to flounder around like I did there.
Alright... Since this game is a lot easier to read, I'll review this one first...
1. Kahedron - Leaning town since he's been trying to give helpful hints to all the newbs.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller - Null read. Needs to post more.
4. Archae - Null read. Needs to post more.
5. pikachugundam -Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Leaning town for trying to contribute.
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning town for analysis.
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for aforementioned actions and having not responded to the accusations yet.
10. Polski - Slightly leaning scum for an OMGUS vote. Albeit it was RVS... It was still an OMGUS vote. I know what you're thinking... Kank did the same thing, why not call him on that? Well, Kank and Wheat know each other making it less of a crime in my eyes... Content hasn't been that great either...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
@Storyteller: Why don't you do like I'm doing & put up a T/S list?
@Tezz: Why'd you feel the need to repeat 'I don't like this' when quoting Kahedron in [/url]this post[/url]?
@Kill-joy: As opposed to letting DKD lurk, this early in the game, why not ask that he be replaced instead of letting him slide to the backburner?
4. This is his first content.
He makes a decent suggestion to ST, then asks two other minor questions.
And the t/s list here is mostly meaningless, consisting almost entirely of town reads, excepting only two low posters as null, a weak scum read on a RVS vote, and the only scum being the main suspect of the thread. -Though, it's not terrible for this early in the game.
10. Polski - Slightly leaning scum for an OMGUS vote. Albeit it was RVS... It was still an OMGUS vote. I know what you're thinking... Kank did the same thing, why not call him on that? Well, Kank and Wheat know each other making it less of a crime in my eyes... Content hasn't been that great either...
Can you quote the OMGUS? I don't see it.
Also, how is a RVS (ergo probably not serious) OMGUS indicitive of alignement? @Storyteller: same question.
@Kill-joy: As opposed to letting DKD lurk, this early in the game, why not ask that he be replaced instead of letting him slide to the backburner?
That still requires waiting for him to lurk enough to get replaced. Besides, if he hasn't answered by a certain point then he gets replaced anyway. Why just sit here and wait for that to happen when we can be doing other things?
1. I think in a basic game trying to help the newbs is a town thing to do so there aren't any misunderstandings of game state. Outside a basic it can be both town (to help prevent misunderstandings) or scum thing to do to make it look like you're posting content when you're really not.
7. He's trying to post analysis as oppose to not. It's not as great as Kank, Celion or WG though. So it shows a townie mentality for the effort.
9. Most of the time scum lurk to avoid having to post content (and slips). Granted town can lurk too cuz of IRL stuff, but lurking is a scum tactic.
10. RVS voting is not indicative of alignment. It's just an OMGUS vote right off the bat even in RVS does not sit that well with me. Polski could have voted for anyone for any awful reason, but chose to vote for the person that voted for him... feels off...
12. I know just because Seppel said it doesn't always mean it's right... But usually massive walls of back and forth between players with good analysis means that they're both likely town.
@Kill-Joy: Is it a given that early lurkers will be replaced? I just thought it was odd that you didn't mention it the first time around.
@Polski: I only have you as slightly leaning scum which is very close to null since you've tried to post analysis as well. From the get-go that RVS vote has not sat well with me. Granted as a new player, it's more of a null read at this point. Also, there's a difference between having not posted content at all from posting not that great content... And I've been V/LA for the holiday... hence no content.
@MechMech: Mudslinging is frowned upon since either side can do it. And there's no reason that in a game you should have to resort to indecency (flaming).
6. Here, he mostly responds to questions. His answers to 1, 7, 9, and 12 are okay. 10 is a little weak, but again, fine for this stage of the game.
He also asks another minor question to kj, and then backs away a bit from one of his only scum reads, in a way that almost reads like an apology.
@Archae: The fact that Polski OMGUS voted still doesn't sit well with me, which is why he's only slightly sitting on my scumdar. He is otherwise a null read. I do not believe he is actively lurking, but is likely just newb. Call it a gut read if you'd like. I'm not trying to throw random suspicion on him for no reason since he's closer to null than scum. If you don't like my reads, then that's fine with me. That's just my opinion. Why don't you post a t/s list for us to go through as well?
@Kank: Fact of the matter is that he still did it. Whether anyone else wishes to read into it as I have is up to them.
7. And again, he downgrades his read even further into an otherwise null read, barely on his scumdar. I could see this coming from nervous, unsure town, except that, "if you don't like my reads, then that's fine with me," as well as the response to Kank, are a little too direct and confident for that. I could also see this coming from a townie with just the slightest read, as he claims, but then why not probe Pol more (or at all)?
I'm glad to see dropkickdude back in the game.
We could sure use some Kahedron up in herrrrre!
@PG: Basing your read on Polski using his RVS vote on me in Post#5 is likely to be a wild goose chase. I definitely didn't take it as an OMGUS vote of any kind. Odds are that no matter who I voted for, he would have voted for me simply because I snuck my post in before Void said "Don't post yet!"
I would have likely done the exact same thing to whomever else would have posted in that spot in my place.
Now I'm going to be very busy with work over the next few weekdays, so don't expect any heavy analysis from me until possibly this weekend even, as I'll only have time to pop in for a few minutes here and there.
@Archae: This is what I was referring to. Basically, despite what people might think, Polski's first RVS vote still doesn't sit well with me. [/reiterate]
1. I think in a basic game trying to help the newbs is a town thing to do so there aren't any misunderstandings of game state. Outside a basic it can be both town (to help prevent misunderstandings) or scum thing to do to make it look like you're posting content when you're really not.
Other thoughts this far: I believe pikachugundam is incorrect in believing that it is town to help newbs. That would provide an opportunity for scum to post without making themselves vulnerable - active lurking.
@MechMech: Yeah... I'll just leave that there...
And I guess I'm also waiting to hear from Kahedron and DKD to see what they're responses are to everyone's thoughts on their play...
8. Just minor clarification responses to Arch and MM.
The lack of anything here is especially important, considering that the clear attitude pika has when responding to MM here really should have something more following it up.
I didn't think it'd been that long since I posted, but I guess it has been. I'm still waiting for Kahedron to post, but DKD has posted stuff and I'm convinced enough from his responses to hold off on my vote on him for now. DKD's analysis was pretty good, but I don't know how much water it'll hold. And with this post I lose my 1337 posts...
9. And here, pika is still doing nothing, while also backing away from his only scum read, and fence-sitting on DKD's analysis as an added bonus.
@Cellion: While I myself haven't finished reading it, a couple of experienced players from my other ongoing game recommended it as a good read for new players. Since this is a basic full of mostly new players, I felt obliged to share. It also has WG and Tezz (and Void even) playing, so I thought it would be exciting.
And now I am sad that Kahedron is being replaced because I was waiting for him to defend himself... So now we have to wait for Storyteller and Kahedron to be replaced.
@Cellion: MechMech is supposedly being mentored this game though I don't know if the mentor is being helpful at all.
@MechMech: Are you talking to your mentor? Cuz some of the questions you're asking us sound like they could be directed to him instead.
@Kank: I think I'm going to need to see this explanation from Kill-Joy. You raise a very good point about how he responded to votes on DKD and now differently to votes on Kahedron. Only thing that comes to mind is that Kahedron is getting replaced now or Kahedron's posts somehow sum up more scummy than DKD's.
12. Some chat about mentors.
And then some actual content in response to kank: noting a good point :thumbsup:, wanting to see an explanation :thumbsup:, and then... defending kj :thumbsdown:, and providing a possible excuse for him to use :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:.
@AWA & KCC: There's only 13 pages... so it shouldn't take too long to reread. After you both catch up, would you please share your thoughts on the progress of the game? I guess a T/S list may help as well.
@Viking Mod: What happens to all the votes on Kahedron as well as his vote cast now that he has been replaced?
Guess I should have done that the first time around...
14. Nothing but asking for content that is obviously coming (though most of the thread did that repeatedly, so :shrug:)
@KCC: Am I scum based on POE? Or do you actually have a case for me? If you actually have a case, this I gotta see.
@Viking Mod: I thought Archae Unvoted...
15. It's a mix of POE from my town reads, and your active lurking, lack of scumhunting, and non-committal stances on everything, including backing away from your few scum reads.
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller/AWA - Null read. Needs to post more. And so does the replacement.
4. Archae - Leaning town for analysis.
5. pikachugundam - Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Null. Needs to post more than 1 liners. Lurking perhaps?
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for lying. First said that he would not provide analysis until people unvoted him, then comes back and says it was because he really hadn't had the time. Well, was it the first or the second and if the second why even say the first?
10. Polski - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I would really like to see KCC's reasoning before casting a vote and would appreciate it if no one else voted for her until she has time to post such seeing as she is at L-2.
16. Here we have, somehow, an even worse t/s list than at the beginning of the game. Still lots of town reads, but less, in favor of lots more null reads. And one weak scum read. At this stage of the day, that lack of reads is not okay, especially when combined with the lack of doing anything to get better reads.
One question for DKD: What direction did you intend for pressure to go?
I have been spending the majority of my time defending myself. I would prefer to have the issue of my playstyle (as I feel that's the reason I'm in the situation I'm in) dealt with and over before I continue pursuing lines of inquiry.
I don't care what you would prefer. The answer to this question is important.
We differ on what we deem "important." My survival is highly important - to more than just my pride - and I'm not going to muddle my defense. The primary reason I've been called into question is my chosen method of play and pursuit. Why would I start it up again before I have quelled all of the doubt it mustered up the first time? Once two more people unvote me, I will post some analysis.
@DKD:
Your response skirts around several of my points, and really doesn't give particularly good answers for the rest. The following paragraph stuck out to me:
I'm reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!".
Sure your actions have generated a lot of posts, but almost none of them talked about Tezz. Instead the posts your actions generated were mostly discussing how scummy your post was. If you're town, you have us barking up the wrong tree. Why so emphatic in taking credit for that?
I'm sorry if there was something I missed when responding or if you feel I glazed over something you think particularly important. If you have a specific concern, just ask me and I'll answer it straight.
DKD, I feel like you're being suprisingly evasive for someone who is supposed to be town. In my post you quote above, I've both pointed out a scummy phrasing and explained why I think its scummy. You quote it, but don't even mention it in your response. Instead, you state I need to provide you with specific concerns for you to address. This happened multiple times in response to my previous post(your response is in #[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9379668&postcount=122"]122[/URL]), and I gives me the feeling that you're simply skipping over parts you don't want to address.
If you're town, providing a counter-argument for each of the points can only help you, and it should be easy to do, since it simply involves explaining the truth.
On a different and unrelated note, its sad to see activity in this game die down so quickly.
I tried to counter every point made against me - hence why I responded by cutting up the quotes instead of handling each of them all at once. As to your point of reading "Look at all the posts we have to go on now!" as "Look what a valuable townie I was!" it was meant for sarcasm: I was trying to pressure Tezz into giving me something to read into. I accomplished my goal of getting something to read into, but obviously not in the way I was hoping.
This reply is not a town response. Refusing the question I could understand, but threatening that people should unvote you before you provide analysis? That is not a townie way of thinking.
It wasn't a threat. It was a promise (cliche I know, but appropriate). A show of good faith. Give me some credit here. I've spent every RL minute I have to spend on this game defending myself from attack after attack. I haven't had time to delve into analysis of anything yet. Tomorrow I will (between work) go through and dive into scumhunting head first.
Bolding mine. I see no need to have included that first part about needing people to unvote you first. Simply saying the second part that you didn't have time would have been sufficient. Wheat may have given a pass on that, but if anything that was a very anti-town thing to say. So in other words, your responses to defend yourself weren't that great, so I'm still suspicious.
@KJ: If the information is not vital, twilight is fine. If you find us lynching someone else, but the information will be relevant, then share it.
@KCC: Still waiting for response...
17. This, however, is probably the best post pika has made all game. It's small, but it at least looks like analysis, and asks what could be a scumhunting question.
Overall, pika is my weakest read. The lack of real content, and avoidance of the main issues, from one of the game's top posters is worth noting, but it could potentially come from nervous/cautious town. However, there are some bits noted above which demonstrate an attitude that leads me away from that conclusion being the most likely explanation. -So, I'm leaning scum, but pika, if you are town, please get more involved.
I will get to kj, and some explanation of my town reads as well, soon, probably tomorrow.
Bolding and numbering mine... to make responding easier...
1. RVS... Doesn't say much...
2. Experience claim. Good or bad thing to do?
3. V/LA notice... Doesn't say much either...
4. I thought all 3 questions were relevant. What makes you think they're minor?
5. Edit... Whoopsies?
6. Pointing out lack of content from being V/LA. And trying to clarify that my read was slightly above null. It never was anything above that. I'm not backing off from something that was never really there.
7. Further clarifying my point. With Polski leaning null n00b, I wasn't quite sure how to proceed.
8. I felt that MM hadn't read my post carefully enough. That's why I left it there.
9. I'd just been prodded. I was a little frantic and posted something... ANYTHING.
10. The game had slowed down, and I'd been pointed to that game to read in my other game. The more experienced players felt that it was a good game to read, so I decided to share it with the others in this basic. Is that so scummy? Also, since you said, that this is essentially a teaching game, I don't see why offering encouragement to other players regardless of alignment is anything special. It's a game afterall.
11. More waiting for people to come in to post and answering a question. How is that not relevant? Would you prefer I didn't answer the questions people asked me?
12. I didn't think I was defending KJ. I was providing Kank with what possibilities I saw. I never thought of it as giving KJ excuses to use.
13. & 14. Me being confused and seeking clarification. Is that so wrong?
15. I think you're dismissing my need for clarification and questions/points I thought were useful as useless, which is why you think I'm lurking.
16. Would it make you feel any better if I told you that my null reads are null because of town behavior that's been cancelled out by scummy behavior?
17. I think I've been scumhunting in my own way. Just because you don't see it though doesn't mean that it's not there...
If scum is experienced enough to use that tactic, then I suppose it's valid, but in a basic I'd lean more towards a town or null read since explaining things to newbs can be done by either side. If all the person is doing it explaining game state and lurking, but not scum hunting then I think it can be a scum indicator.
@Wheat: So without hearing any sort of rebuttal or waiting for the replacement, you're willing to lynch him. What are your thoughts if he happens to flip town?
@MechMech: My observations were not meant to be rude. Cellion did not know (or perhaps didn't remember) you were being mentored and didn't think you were from your game play. I was simply pointing that out as well as making sure you were actually being mentored.
Now the real question is: Did you miss these on purpose because they would not help your case against me? Perhaps since in your case on MechMech you say that we're buddying. If we're buddying, then why'd I insult him?
I have finally been able to finish reading this game(the nested quotes were a pain). I hope to have at minimum a T/S list up for inquiry later today. Thanks for your patience in this hectic time.
As for my experience, I played in the CCM and I am currently in Basic 70.
With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
Is the bolded to say that you are not suspicious of KittyCupCake at all, or just that you're not 'so' convinced? You say that odds are equally good that she is scum or vanilla town, and your language towards her is saccharine. Do you have no read on the Kahedron/KittyCupCake duo? What do you think of the arguments that have been put forth? If they are wrong, why?
Also, since you seem to want to fence-sit about as hard as possible here, does that mean that odds are also approximately even that dropkickdude is town or scum? Then your only scum read might be kill-joy?
Whom else do you see as scummy, and why? I'm not looking for whom you'd like to hear from or who looks scummier if someone flips town/scum, but rather who you actively think does not have the town's best interests at heart.
1. The situation would have been different if Kahedron asked to be replaced under pressure, but the fact that he up and left without a trace for a while (only to show up back in the Crafters clan thread saying he was without internet at his parents). It's more null to me than a scum tell.
!!!
Unvote, Vote: MechanicalMech
If Kahedron was without internet, it deflates the only point that is, for me, reliable against him. I always find Kah scummy, so I no longer trust my read now.
I had previously been under the impression Kah was just lurking rather than completely absent, which is something he does as scum. But if it's just a lack of internet I will no longer push him for it.
@KCC: If you get the chance, please read through at least part of the CCMVI Crafters chat. It's the closest you can get for meta for PG. I only bring this up because your points on PG only seem to serve up a PG mindset rather than a scum mindset.
Looks to be a light day at work so I'll go try and assess KJ here.
It sounds like kill-joy is CC'ing pikachugundam, who travels around the bay area in a giant fuzzy Pikachu outfit instigating random flash mobs to perform a Gangnam Style cover song by Carly Rae Jepsen.
Those are pretty close, right?
The only way you could get closer is if you added "on acid" somewhere into that sentence. Not gonna tell you where though.
Cake is always more important than sanity.
That was a good trade.
+1 to kill-joy
YAY!
*nom nom nom*
COOKIE!
This is pretty standard RVS kill-joy. Reminds me of the time in CCMVI where we sang the Digimon theme during RVS. And of course, from the same game, COVERED IN *****ES.
I can understand, I feed my cats too much. The key is to make sure they get exercise. You should exercise your madness more. Or.. no, actually that sounds like a bad idea.
As to this, I think Wheaty read Polski's post the same way that I read it before I saw his next post, that this is actually a legit vote. His next post however does make it clear that his vote was just an RVS vote. At least, I think that's what WG's getting at here. But he'll have to explain.
We have a winner!
Unvote, Vote: MzztrTetris
Can you go more in depth as to how what Tezz said is scummy? I think I get what you're trying to accomplish with your Polski vote, but I don't see how Tezz's post fits the criteria.
Re: DKD: I agree that declaring Tezz's post town in the manner he did was quite over the top. I just question speed of his wagon, especially considering that all of the suspicion on him was generated from two lines of text said two IRL days ago. I tend to have a problem when A wagon builds on someone for something they haven't explained yet, as all the motives attatched are placed there by outside observers.
Also, if DKD lurks as much as he did in Minecraft, we could be waiting forever on that explanation.
If he doesn't post in a day, I say we put it on the backburner and seek out other suspects.
So, DKD: Please explain what you saw in Tezz's post, and why it's so solid and Townie-natured. Thank you.
Re: DKD: The reason I think that if DKD isn't back in a reasonable amount of time, we should move on to other suspects is because it accomplishes a lot more if we move on than if we let the game stall out there. I mean, which is more productive: Putting DKD to L-2, waiting for him to be prodded a few times, then eventually replaced and THEN we get a claim, or to persue people who are here, then when he eventually gets back he can claim and we can evaluate that on it's merits at that time.
This is obviously the most extreme circumstance, but since we're gonna be looking for other scum anyway, why not hunt for another scum in the meantime? If we don't find one, or he comes back, then we can go from there.
What do I have to gain from holding off on DKD? Well, as town, I would have the benefit of the game not stalling, which will lead to productive lynches, like I've stated above. As scum I would be letting my potential scumbuddy live an extra Day, meaning that we would only have to reduce the town to three people the following night to win. And if he's a PR, we get the benefit of that as well for one more day.
As scum, letting the wagon stall is far better in the long run. Stalled games generally benefit scum because people start forgetting their reads, and lose interest in the game.
There's also the reservations I've stated based on the speed of the wagon given lack of DKD input. He hasn't explained himself, and he's at L-2 already.
Kank: You and I disagree as to how to handle lurkers. Neither is wrong, it's just different angles. For instance, my way leaves the possibility a scum power role that garners early suspicion living a night or two longer than would have been. But as long as we don't forget they were scummy, you can come back to them later. But with your way, if a scum is known to be lurky, the game could stall and then the things I've stated above could happen. I simply feel that the benefits of moving on outway the benefits of waiting to lynch him on the offchance he's a scum power role.
Ok we have got the vote count and DKD was 1 vote away from claim threshold.
Vote drokkickdude
Guys
DKD is now 2 votes away from a lynch. Any more votes on him especially before he claims is going to be regarded as an extremely anti-town move as it allows the scum to stifle any further discussion which is not in anyones best interest.
So, you're voting him to L-2 because.... no reason? Ok then.
Oh, hey! You even explain to everyone why its scummy to place more votes on him! Now your noob scumbuddy knows not to be on the wagon past that point! Oh, wait... I haven't got to the part where you're scum yet. That's coming soon to a theatre near you.
At this point I'm not that convinced of his nature but have seen a couple of gambits similar to the one WG has pulled completely derail a town and the soonest it is resolved the better DKDs claim and possible eventual lynch is one way of doing that.
Also unless some one has anything else to go on at the moment DKD is the best/only wagon and in the cause of keeping private information private the fewer wagons we have that go to a full claim D1 the better IMO.
In addition to the above as we have a decent number of New players the earlier something are mentioned the better like the L-2 = full claim and not more votes on the guest of honor until we get it and some discussion of it especially if it is for a verifiable Power role.
So, you're saying that you're voting DKD because Wheat made a gambit and you wanna resolve it.
And you want as few claims as possible D1.
And something about teaching newer players early.
I'll grant you the second thing. It is a good idea to keep claims to a minimum D1. I'll expand that to say the most claims you want is limited to the number of most likely scum you have. Usually that'll be one, occasionally two in the case of a dichotomy. Rarely it'll be more than that.
However, the first thing is really really bad. before this vote, and actually including this vote, I'm not seeing any sign of suspicion from you about DKD. The vote itself just looks like you're voting just to get him to L-2.
Tezzey look at the number of new players we have here. Just under half of them are in there first couple of games most of whom are currently sitting on the fence so might not know the conventions of this place. I didn't want any one steaming in and throwing an extra vote in to leave us in the position where a surprise Lynch could happen before some one can unvote.
And its far better that gets drummed into them now rather than at MyLOL.
The way you did it seemed odd to me. I mean, there's reminding everyone that we're at L-2, so don't vote and theres saying "HEY NEW GUYS! IF YOU PLACE A VOTE NOW, IT CAN BE TAKEN AS SCUMMY! DON'T DO IT!" which is how I read it.
Now, I'm gonna Vote Kahedron because:
1. Voting DKD to L-2 apperently just to get on the wagon
2. Wanting DKD lynched to solve the gambit, which is a terrible reason.
3. Making sure people know how scummy it is to get on the wagon after L-2 (This is more of a gut feeling, but if he's scum then one of the new players is too, I think)
Oh, I definitely don’t like this line (bolded)! This could easily be read as “Yo scumbuddy DKD! If you’re reading this, just don’t post for a day or two and I’ll try to get everyone off your trail, okay?” Don’t expect me to ever be content to let sleeping lurkers lurk!
This is about dropkickdude. Can you explain why you think good cause for suspicion and then dropkickdude lurking would not be cause enough to give him/her a pass for the time being?
I think you worded this weird, but I think I understand it. And I think I answered it in my first part of the post. If I didn't let me know.
10. Polski - Slightly leaning scum for an OMGUS vote. Albeit it was RVS... It was still an OMGUS vote. I know what you're thinking... Kank did the same thing, why not call him on that? Well, Kank and Wheat know each other making it less of a crime in my eyes... Content hasn't been that great either...
Can you quote the OMGUS? I don't see it.
Also, how is a RVS (ergo probably not serious) OMGUS indicitive of alignement? @Storyteller: same question.
@Kill-joy: As opposed to letting DKD lurk, this early in the game, why not ask that he be replaced instead of letting him slide to the backburner?
That still requires waiting for him to lurk enough to get replaced. Besides, if he hasn't answered by a certain point then he gets replaced anyway. Why just sit here and wait for that to happen when we can be doing other things?
Which is townie reasoning, plus oodles of content.
Re: DKD: The reason I think that if DKD isn't back in a reasonable amount of time, we should move on to other suspects is because it accomplishes a lot more if we move on than if we let the game stall out there. I mean, which is more productive: Putting DKD to L-2, waiting for him to be prodded a few times, then eventually replaced and THEN we get a claim, or to persue people who are here, then when he eventually gets back he can claim and we can evaluate that on it's merits at that time.
This is obviously the most extreme circumstance, but since we're gonna be looking for other scum anyway, why not hunt for another scum in the meantime? If we don't find one, or he comes back, then we can go from there.
What do I have to gain from holding off on DKD? Well, as town, I would have the benefit of the game not stalling, which will lead to productive lynches, like I've stated above. As scum I would be letting my potential scumbuddy live an extra Day, meaning that we would only have to reduce the town to three people the following night to win. And if he's a PR, we get the benefit of that as well for one more day.
As scum, letting the wagon stall is far better in the long run. Stalled games generally benefit scum because people start forgetting their reads, and lose interest in the game.
There's also the reservations I've stated based on the speed of the wagon given lack of DKD input. He hasn't explained himself, and he's at L-2 already.
Kank: You and I disagree as to how to handle lurkers. Neither is wrong, it's just different angles. For instance, my way leaves the possibility a scum power role that garners early suspicion living a night or two longer than would have been. But as long as we don't forget they were scummy, you can come back to them later. But with your way, if a scum is known to be lurky, the game could stall and then the things I've stated above could happen. I simply feel that the benefits of moving on outway the benefits of waiting to lynch him on the offchance he's a scum power role.
I'm trying to wrap my head around your mentioning of specifically seeking out scum power roles here. I'm looking to lynch scum of any kind, power role or otherwise. I'd much rather lynch ANY sort of scum over the mislynching of a townie. I can't quite put my finger on it, but this whole passage of text from you makes me feel much more like it's scum speak than town talk. Your following assessment of Kahedron makes me think that you're less and less likely of being on the same side as him too. If you're scum, then he can't be. I really want to hear what he has to say now.
This is the quote you're misinterpretting here. You wanted to know the benefits of holding off on DKD. I've presented both sides of that.
Specifically you're asking about where I said "scum power roles", so I'll explain again:
As scum, there are two possible benefits that I can see: If we're at MyLo or LyLo, letting him live a day could potentially win me the game. The second benefit, and one that would be in effect right now is, if I am scum and he is a power role, letting him live through the night allows me and my team to use his ability one more time.
That's if I'm scum, and he's one of our PRs. While we can make a case that he may be scum, there's no way to know whether he's a PR or not. None.
I hope that answered people's concerns.
1. I think in a basic game trying to help the newbs is a town thing to do so there aren't any misunderstandings of game state. Outside a basic it can be both town (to help prevent misunderstandings) or scum thing to do to make it look like you're posting content when you're really not.
You're wrong. Helping newbs requires a mindset where a player puts the greater good of a fellow mafia player over an individual mafia game. That's really common in this community. Realistically it's a null tell in all games.
7. He's trying to post analysis as oppose to not. It's not as great as Kank, Celion or WG though. So it shows a townie mentality for the effort.
Analysis in and of itself is null. That's just interpretting what you're reading. It's the quality of analysis that tends to determine alignment. I'll have to reread him, but I haven't seen town-quality analysis really from him. I also count this as null.
9. Most of the time scum lurk to avoid having to post content (and slips). Granted town can lurk too cuz of IRL stuff, but lurking is a scum tactic.
Lurking is null. Can't scum lurk too cuz of IRL stuff? And how does one tell the difference between IRL lurking and scum lurking in general?
Active lurking is a scum tactic, sure. If he was around the site posting a bunch of content elsewhere, then sure it could be scummy lurking. Have you seen him around the site? If not, we have to accept his reasoning that he didn't have internet where he was.
10. RVS voting is not indicative of alignment. It's just an OMGUS vote right off the bat even in RVS does not sit that well with me. Polski could have voted for anyone for any awful reason, but chose to vote for the person that voted for him... feels off...
Except the vote you seem to be referring to wasn't OMGUS. Like Kank said, the reason behind it didn't seem like "OMG you voted for me die die die". And even then, OMGUS in RVS is null. I've jokingly OMGUSed someone in RVS before. I personally consider it null.
12. I know just because Seppel said it doesn't always mean it's right... But usually massive walls of back and forth between players with good analysis means that they're both likely town.
For this, it depends on the context. I'll give you that most of the wall to wall text battles I'm thinking of now were town to town. But also keep in mind that scum like text walls too. A lot of people are lazy, and don't enjoy reading text walls.
As far as my thoughts on Kank, there's not been a whole lot from him I don't like. So, he's leaning town to me as well.
@Everyone I have no intention to mudsling, I was asking about the intentions of others: kill-joy's post #97 had some. His list of three reasons he was voting Kahedron weren't all spot on. Number three he says that it is simply scummy to get on a wagon after L-2. Kahedron explained he didn't want anyone else to vote to avoid a quick lynch.
@kill-joy Did you realize you did this, or misinterpret Kahedron's posts? They were pretty clear.
He's scummy not only for putting the wagon to L-2, but also because he's not shown any suspicion of DKD at all this game.
Go read all his posts and show me where he claims DKD to be even a little scummy.
And as far as avoiding a quick lynch, like someone else said, he could have just as easily said "consider my vote on DKD" to accomplish the same thing. I don't believe his intentions are genuine.
=======
Re: DKD: I'll deal with DKD prolly tomorrow, and look at his newest post closely.
A lot seems to hinge on whatever Kahedron turns out to be. If he flips scum, then more guilt will be placed on Mech and less on DKD, but if he flips town instead, what do we learn from that?
I have an answer to this, but it needs to wait. Latest I'll answer this is first post Day 2 if Kahedron flips town. Earliest will be Twilight.
------------------------------------------------
So, new topic. This is something that really should be discussed now. We have two choices right now concerning Kahedron:
1. Wait for the mod to replace him, and ask the replacement to claim, then decide where to go from there.
Pro: Kahedron hasn't claimed yet. He could be a PR. So, waiting for a replacement could save a PR.
Con: It holds up the game and if he's vanilla he will get lynched anyway. Possibility of one of the few available replacements being wasted on someone who may die shortly after claiming.
2. Lynch him before he's replaced.
Pro: Game not held up, If he's scum, no chance to talk his way out of his lynch. Plus, the mod doesn't have to waste a replacement on someone who will likely be lynched.
Con: If town, we lose a town. I can't think of more than that one.
I suppose there's a third option wherein we choose another target, but I don't think we need to, since we caught a scum in Kahedron.
My opinion: We lynch him now. If there was more doubt as to his alignment, then maybe we hold off. But given the case on him and the circumstances surrounding his replacement, I'm sure we're gonna hit scum here.
Re: DKD: I agree that declaring Tezz's post town in the manner he did was quite over the top. I just question speed of his wagon, especially considering that all of the suspicion on him was generated from two lines of text said two IRL days ago. I tend to have a problem when A wagon builds on someone for something they haven't explained yet, as all the motives attatched are placed there by outside observers.
Also, if DKD lurks as much as he did in Minecraft, we could be waiting forever on that explanation.
If he doesn't post in a day, I say we put it on the backburner and seek out other suspects.
So, DKD: Please explain what you saw in Tezz's post, and why it's so solid and Townie-natured. Thank you.
Re: DKD: The reason I think that if DKD isn't back in a reasonable amount of time, we should move on to other suspects is because it accomplishes a lot more if we move on than if we let the game stall out there. I mean, which is more productive: Putting DKD to L-2, waiting for him to be prodded a few times, then eventually replaced and THEN we get a claim, or to persue people who are here, then when he eventually gets back he can claim and we can evaluate that on it's merits at that time.
This is obviously the most extreme circumstance, but since we're gonna be looking for other scum anyway, why not hunt for another scum in the meantime? If we don't find one, or he comes back, then we can go from there.
What do I have to gain from holding off on DKD? Well, as town, I would have the benefit of the game not stalling, which will lead to productive lynches, like I've stated above. As scum I would be letting my potential scumbuddy live an extra Day, meaning that we would only have to reduce the town to three people the following night to win. And if he's a PR, we get the benefit of that as well for one more day.
As scum, letting the wagon stall is far better in the long run. Stalled games generally benefit scum because people start forgetting their reads, and lose interest in the game.
There's also the reservations I've stated based on the speed of the wagon given lack of DKD input. He hasn't explained himself, and he's at L-2 already.
Kank: You and I disagree as to how to handle lurkers. Neither is wrong, it's just different angles. For instance, my way leaves the possibility a scum power role that garners early suspicion living a night or two longer than would have been. But as long as we don't forget they were scummy, you can come back to them later. But with your way, if a scum is known to be lurky, the game could stall and then the things I've stated above could happen. I simply feel that the benefits of moving on outway the benefits of waiting to lynch him on the offchance he's a scum power role.
So, new topic. This is something that really should be discussed now. We have two choices right now concerning Kahedron:
1. Wait for the mod to replace him, and ask the replacement to claim, then decide where to go from there.
Pro: Kahedron hasn't claimed yet. He could be a PR. So, waiting for a replacement could save a PR.
Con: It holds up the game and if he's vanilla he will get lynched anyway. Possibility of one of the few available replacements being wasted on someone who may die shortly after claiming.
2. Lynch him before he's replaced.
Pro: Game not held up, If he's scum, no chance to talk his way out of his lynch. Plus, the mod doesn't have to waste a replacement on someone who will likely be lynched.
Con: If town, we lose a town. I can't think of more than that one.
I suppose there's a third option wherein we choose another target, but I don't think we need to, since we caught a scum in Kahedron.
My opinion: We lynch him now. If there was more doubt as to his alignment, then maybe we hold off. But given the case on him and the circumstances surrounding his replacement, I'm sure we're gonna hit scum here.
Anyone else wanna weigh in here?
I'll put all these here for completeness.
Relevent points:
DKD: When I said that we should wait for him for a few days, there were a few reasons for that.
1) It was around thanksgiving. I thought it more likely that was the reason he was away than because he was avoiding posting due to pressure. I also thought him predisposed to lurking as I've seen him do it before.
2) I knew that when he came back, he could explain everything, and then we could question him on his mindset. Which we did.
Kahedron: He replaced out. And we had a lot more content from him than we did on DKD at the time of my first post. Reasons I was ok with not waiting for a replacement:
1) The scumminess of his posts illustrated in my and others posts leaves little doubt in my mind that he/ KCC are scum. The fact that he replaced out under such pressure is an even better indicator. If he were replaced, the replacement might fool the town into thinking he's not scum.
2)Everything we need to know, save Kahedron's alignment and role, is part of Kahedron's mindset. KCC can't tell us why he did all those scummy things. All she knows is her Role PM.
I have an answer to this, but it needs to wait. Latest I'll answer this is first post Day 2 if Kahedron flips town. Earliest will be Twilight.
------------------------------------------------
So, new topic. This is something that really should be discussed now. We have two choices right now concerning Kahedron:
1. Wait for the mod to replace him, and ask the replacement to claim, then decide where to go from there.
Pro: Kahedron hasn't claimed yet. He could be a PR. So, waiting for a replacement could save a PR.
Con: It holds up the game and if he's vanilla he will get lynched anyway. Possibility of one of the few available replacements being wasted on someone who may die shortly after claiming.
2. Lynch him before he's replaced.
Pro: Game not held up, If he's scum, no chance to talk his way out of his lynch. Plus, the mod doesn't have to waste a replacement on someone who will likely be lynched.
Con: If town, we lose a town. I can't think of more than that one.
I suppose there's a third option wherein we choose another target, but I don't think we need to, since we caught a scum in Kahedron.
My opinion: We lynch him now. If there was more doubt as to his alignment, then maybe we hold off. But given the case on him and the circumstances surrounding his replacement, I'm sure we're gonna hit scum here.
Anyone else wanna weigh in here?
@K-j: You seemed very eager to get Kahedron lynched before he got replaced under the logic I've bolded above. We got replacements quickly, and providing a player with a chance to explain themselves is exactly what we gave DKD. Do you still want to lynch KCC immediately?
Sucks to be her, but yea. She's claimed already. VT doesn't make her any more town than before she claimed. She's scum. She needs to die. She knew what she was getting into when she replaced in.
If you could stop making votes without giving any reasons, that'd be terrific.
This response is slightly annoyed, and with good reason, since we were out of RVS and Wheat Grinder supplied no real explanation of how MzztrTetris' post was scummy. I can clearly see how a Townie would answer this way.
I don't like that you used this as a justification to vote, especially because his post makes it clear that he doesn't understand why he's being voted, and W_G had not yet returned to explain himself.
I was tempted to /barn W_G's vote on this reasoning alone, but I can see an eager Town falling for this trap by putting too much trust in W_G and reading all of MzztrTetris' posts as scummy from then on. What swayed my opinion was the remainder of your voting post.
Quote from dropkickdude »
Polski's vote was in the spirit of RVS. WG came in with a solid RVS-ending-Townie-natured-prodding. Mizz took the bait in a not altogether awful way. However, he then reacted poorly to such little pressure. I support more.
(emphasis mine)
DKDs little recap echo'd W_G's explanation of his ploy, but took the opportunity say that it was "solid" and "RVS-ending-Townie-natured-prodding". This is so dense with praise for W_G's strategy that if this isn't DKD trying his hardest to buddy onto W_G, I have no idea what is.
On top of that, the hyphenated monstrosity makes the entire statement read extremely awkwardly. It's as if DKD wanted to praise the "prodding" so much that he couldn't stop with just one adjective.
Furthermore, W_Gs strategy is NOT something only a Townie could use. In a game like this one with a lot of new players W_Gs strat could have convinced an eager new Townie to snap up W_Gs judgement without thinking about Mzztr's statements for him/herself. The Townie would be cast in a scummy light and scumW_G would be well on his way to raking in the mislynches.
DKD slamming the town label on W_G so eagerly and praising the strategy on such poor grounds reads just as scummy as the vote itself.
unvote; vote dropkickdude
So, voting Kahedron/KCC is bad cuz they don't have that many posts... but voting DKD is fine based solely on his only serious post? At the time you voted him, he had 3(?) posts? Kahedron has way more contentful posts now than DKD did then. So, why are you trying so hard to not vote KCC?
@Wheat_Grinder: What is your overall assessment of kill-joy?
@kill-joy: What is your overall assessment of Wheat_Grinder?
I've been feeling him as leaning scum for a while now. Something about his early play seemed off, but before I called him on it I wanted to give him some rope to hang himself with.
I would have voted KCC, except that:
1) I found the insistence and aggressiveness of your post #180 a big contrast to the posts made by town up 'til now, which were largely cautious and questioning.
Firstly, the "insistence and aggressiveness" you're citing can be simply described by "certainty". I don't like having a scum pinned down then watching them squirm out because the town isn't as certain as I am about their scumminess.
You also had a very carefree attitude towards potentially losing a townie. On top of that, you hinted that you had additional knowledge that you would hide until Tomorrow. All in all, it put me on edge towards voting for Kahedron.
Secondly, I believe I demonstrated that the benefits of one outweighed the possibility of killing a townie. Although, that won't be a problem because she's not town.
As for the "secret information", it's not secret. It's actually common knowledge. But I don't want people to realize the situation I have until twilight or early Day 2. Like I said, you guys will have to trust me.
If you guys REALLY want me to say before then, we can take a vote. If I do have to say it early, it may affect the situation.
2) I think there's value in the interactions and reads KCC will provide. Also, I really doubt that there is much KCC can say to convince us that she's town.
If there's not much she can say that would convince us, where's the value? That's my main issue.
From my experience talking to DKD, inconsistencies in mindset showed through in his explanations and only served to further convince me of his scumminess.
I'm not convinced on DKD. His responses were a lot better than the post that got him suspicion in the first place.
I hoped to look at KCC's reads the same way to verify my read of her. Additionally, her interactions with other players and her reads will remain for reference Tomorrow. In the unlikely case she ends up flipping town, the added perspective of her reads <snip> will be valuable going into Day 2.
I don't see how the green statements are consistent with the blue (including the one above). If you're that sure that she won't be town, then why does your read need to be verified on her?
Your latest post has addressed my concerns in 1) above by explaining your reasoning for not waiting for Kahedron's replacement. I agree that Kahedron's actions have looked scummy enough to lynch, but I'd like to at least get KCC's reads before I vote.
I'm not seeing why. I really can't see a reason you'd need to. If he's scummy enough to lynch, why would his replacement's reads matter?
The difference is where the wagon is at for each player. For DKD, I voted early and DKD's later posts provided more content to analyze and served to increase his scumminess in my eyes. For Kahedron/KCC, my vote will bring her to L-1 (by my count), allowing a self-hammer or quick vote to eliminate any chance to get more content from KCC.
Given the most recent votecount, are you still not willing to vote KCC? If still no, why not? If you want to now, is the amount of votes on her what changed your mind? And if not, why?
Rather than defending Kahedron's reasoning/statements, I would like to see KCC give a full synopsis of the other players. In the event that she is town (which I consider a VT Fishlegs to be completely plausible), I would like to have that to go by at least.
@KCC: In addition to your review of the other players, what is it specifically about WG that makes him "Probably Town" in your eyes?
Flavorgaming aside, why do you think she's town?
Also, you imply that either you disagree with KCC's assertion that WG is prob town, or you agree with it. Which is it, and why?
How did you know that dropkickdude could explain everything? Having played with him before would not necessarily make you privy to such insight. This reads as if you know of dropkickdude's intentions or alignment.
In contrast to Kahedron who can't explain anything due to replacement.
I suppose a better way to put it is "DKD can come back and explain his thoughts, whereas Kahedron can't since he replaced out".
You have been seemingly forgetting the possibility that Kahedron/KittyCupCake could have had a power role, which would be one reason to wait for the replacement. Yes, it is moot now that vanilla has been claimed; it was still a possibility no matter how scummily Kahedron was playing.
On that note, I am willing to vote for KittyCupCake based on Kahedron's play.
And given his scumminess, I didn't think it at all likely that he is a town PR.
Is there a possibility that I'm wrong? Yes. A small one, but I doubt it.
Unless we have evidence, then we shouldn't just assume "they could be a town PR". IMO, his scumminess is evidence to the contrary.
Rather than defending Kahedron's reasoning/statements, I would like to see KCC give a full synopsis of the other players. In the event that she is town (which I consider a VT Fishlegs to be completely plausible), I would like to have that to go by at least.
@KCC: In addition to your review of the other players, what is it specifically about WG that makes him "Probably Town" in your eyes?
Flavorgaming aside, why do you think she's town?
Also, you imply that either you disagree with KCC's assertion that WG is prob town, or you agree with it. Which is it, and why?
It's not that I think she's town, it's that I'm not completely convinced that she is scum. I'd rather the condemned have a chance to speak first before being sailed off on a flaming barge. I notice that both you and WG share a desire to lynch without the subject defending themselves first as well as a desire to completely disregard a claim of any kind. If we lynch KCC before she has a chance to fully speak and she turns out to be Vanilla Town - Fishlegs, then what do we gain from that? Oh yeah, you might tell us that come Day 2 after she's already dead.
I want to know what KCC feels about WG because I have been suspicious of his motives of late, much like I have been suspicious of yours.
She can say whatever she likes. There's not a whole lot she can say that would convince me at this point.
As far as disregarding the claim... she claimed Vanilla. I share TheColdMonarch's philosophy in this case.
And like I've said before... I HIGHLY doubt she will flip town. But I'll play DA here. If she does flip town, then obviously we gain nothing except <redacted> from her lynch. (Seriously, if you wanna know... take a vote. In fact, I'll start it for you).
Everyone: Yay or Nay: I want KJ to tell us this "secret" he's been holding off telling us right now.
I'd prefer not to, but I will if it's asked of me. We just gain less information that way.
Re Wheat: Is that the only reason you're suspicious? Due to recent events? Or is there more to it?
I'm pretty convinced that KCC/Kahedron is scum based on Kahedron replacing out under pressure and the posts that lead to that. However, after reading Kahedron's posts myself, I find myself simply agreeing with the analysis put together by other players. Since this analysis is secondhand, and I'm not an experienced player, I'm a little worried that I'm being too accepting of other people's reads. As a result, I'm hoping to analyze the reads KCC will be providing myself. If I can see scummy motivation/phrasing/etc then my uneasiness is relieved and I can vote KCC confident that my independent analysis is matching up to reads possibly affected by other player's analysis.
That's actually a good way to go, taking the reads of the more experienced players with a grain of salt. I made that mistake in my first game.
Other than allowing me to vote confidently, holding off on lynching KCC until we have her reads gets us:
- More posts to analyze. These should contain further scumtells than may convince the people currently not voting.
- In case KCC is actually town, we'll have a set of guaranteed townie reads to compare with our own for Day 2.
- Regardless of how KCC flips, how other players interacted with her during her posts today will be useful to analyze going forwards.
Lynching her immediately on the other hand get us (based on your earlier post):
- Less time for her talk her way out of the lynch
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm convinced that if she's really scum and we're properly analyzing everything she says this is pretty unlikely.
The more I read these, the more I think I'm being selfish and tunnely. Just cuz I'm convinced doesn't mean everyone else is. I should really think about that more than my own opinion on the matter.
The bolded are really good reasons I hadn't considered. So, I find myself wanting to at least give her the chance to provide her reads.
I think a word or two was lost here, because I'm not clear what you're saying you demonstrated the benefits of.
Essentially I meant to say that I had demonstrated that the benefits of lynching Kahedron before replacement (due to his scumminess) outweighed the benefits of holding out in the unlikely chance he was town. But obviously that holds less weight now that he was replaced, and that I'm willing to give KCC a little slack.
I don't feel like you need to reveal it if its disadvantageous to do so, mostly because you're not using this information as a reason to push anything.
unvote; vote KCC
Ultimately, I believe my vote will go on KCC regardless of the responses I recieve to my questions for her. I find it unlikely that she isn't scum based on Kahedron's actions, and her early response with the T/S list has already looked sketchy. Knowing that there is some leeway for me to ask questions and for us to hear her reads before her lynch makes a big difference (for the reasons I stated in the list above).
Ok.
@KCC: I would like to echo other's desires for a T/S list with reasons.
Not much else to ask that other's haven't already asked and that isn't covered by "T/S list with reasons".
I hate nested quotes because they make reading a pain, didn't see anything that popped out at me in the rest of these posts.
1. The situation would have been different if Kahedron asked to be replaced under pressure, but the fact that he up and left without a trace for a while (only to show up back in the Crafters clan thread saying he was without internet at his parents). It's more null to me than a scum tell.
!!!
Unvote, Vote: MechanicalMech
If Kahedron was without internet, it deflates the only point that is, for me, reliable against him. I always find Kah scummy, so I no longer trust my read now.
I had previously been under the impression Kah was just lurking rather than completely absent, which is something he does as scum. But if it's just a lack of internet I will no longer push him for it.
If you're not going to have internet for a while, that's a reason for a V/LA, not a replace out. It does nothing to change the fact that he replaced out under pressure. Furthermore, the day after KCC joins us, Kahedron obviously has internet again (ie. you can see he's posting on the forums quite a bit once again by looking at his posting history) so he could be back in this game right now if he wanted to.
The way you're swinging with such alarm (and on to MM with no reasoning provided) is... alarming, to say the least.
@ KCC, Kank, PG:
Hopefully, I'll be able to respond to the three of you this evening. I just needed to get my surprise over this W_G post out of my system.
With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
Is the bolded to say that you are not suspicious of KittyCupCake at all, or just that you're not 'so' convinced? You say that odds are equally good that she is scum or vanilla town, and your language towards her is saccharine. Do you have no read on the Kahedron/KittyCupCake duo? What do you think of the arguments that have been put forth? If they are wrong, why?
Also, since you seem to want to fence-sit about as hard as possible here, does that mean that odds are also approximately even that dropkickdude is town or scum? Then your only scum read might be kill-joy?
Whom else do you see as scummy, and why? I'm not looking for whom you'd like to hear from or who looks scummier if someone flips town/scum, but rather who you actively think does not have the town's best interests at heart.
I'm suspicious of everybody, some more than others. I go through life constantly in a natural state of skepticism. It's not that I have no read on either DKD or Kah/KCC, it's that I'm not convinced that they are scum. Oh, either one could definitely be, I'm just not convinced of it. Keep in mind, I'm a person that's not convinced that all matter in the universe came into being a mere 13.7 billion years ago let alone any branch of human-based theology that has ever existed.
I'm currently trying to persue an investigation on the reasonings behind the actions of kill-joy and Wheat_Grinder.
If you go read that Crafters CCM chat that WG linked to, you'll find that I was surprisingly adept at predicting events, yet quite poor at determining alignments of scum. Prior to this game and whatever you want to call KOTH Mafia, that was my first taste of what Mafia is.
While I didn't fine much scummy about your analysis of PG, I do have some issues with the reaching you did to support your MM case. While I also feel that MM is somewhat scummy, the posts I have problems with are completely different than the ones you've used here. In fact, I find most of the posts that you provided to do absolutely nothing for the case that you're town and MM's scum.
I've left your spoiler in to keep the post size bloat down a bit, my analysis is in red.
I'll start with MM, since he has the fewest posts to go through.
The first thing I'd like to emphasize, is that while the case presented so far is good, it's slightly off the mark in the relationship to my role. This will be very important to remember tomorrow, if you go through with lynching me today, because I don't want you all sweeping this case under the rug once I flip town -remember, it still holds water, keep your focus here.
@Kahedron If you hadn't voted DKD, you wouldn't have to worry about a new player voting and a surprise lynch. This seems an altogether bad play on your part. You could easily explain L-2 = full claim without all this nonsense.
Mech claims to have a slight scum read on K, but none of this language reads that way. "Nonsense" and "bad play" aren't accusatory words, they are words you throw at someone you think is town and making mistakes. -And while there would certainly be reasons for MM to try making a statement like this if K was a scumbuddy, they are just as likely to come from scum trying to paint a townie in a bad light.
Before this post, Mech has made no posts referring to Kahedron in any way. His two posts immediately previous were answering questions I'd sent his way, and before that were some comments regarding DKD and W_G's actions. Furthermore, Mech is not claiming a scum read on Kahedron in this post in any way either. In fact, your own analysis is correct: ""Nonsense" and "bad play" aren't accusatory words, they are words you throw at someone you think is town and making mistakes".
The important thing to focus on here is the disconnect between the words, actions, and claimed mindset. They are all off, regardless of my alignment, which makes MM likely scum.
In this post, MM's actions words and mindset seem all in allignment:
- (words) He finds something to be bad play and calls Kahedron out on it, he does not say or imply that Kahedron is scum/scummy, just that his play is bad (a neutral read)
- (actions) He doesn't vote Kahedron
- (mindset) He does not apply pressure to Kahedron or attack him more forcefully with his arguments here, which he (hopefully) would if he thought he was scummy.
I'm not seeing any contradictions here. Its only later that he starts calling Kahedron scummy.
@pikachugundam Right, you say that only outside of a Basic (this is a Basic right?) this behavior can be considered scummy. I believe that it can be considered scummy in a Basic, right now, as well.
Even though pika explained why being helpful with game reminders is a clear non-tell in basics, MM ignores that to stretch some more negative attention onto K.
Important things to note here:
1) Basics are primarily teaching tools; explaining things midgame here is not a tell, and this is doubly true for someone like Kahedron, who lives over in the Rulings Forum. (This part is less about MM's alignment than just being something that needs to be said -I understand that MM's being new would make him not fully aware of this, though his dismissing of pika's explanation is still scummy.)
This has nothing to do with MM's alignment, which you yourself point out
2) This quote is further evidence that MM's scumminess is not reliant on my being scum, as popular opinion currently holds. -If K was a scumbuddy, why would MM smear him here like this? Why do scum vote on each other's wagons? Why not instead let pika alleviate some of the pressure without comment? If you lynch me today, gold star this post for tomorrow, because this was horrible mudslinging from MM.
I think this is one of only two points that hold any water in your entire analysis. When first reading, I chose to interpret this as a new player trying to work out what is/isn't scummy, confused by how something can be scummy elsewhere but not in a basic. However, I think it being mudslinging is also a reasonable interpretation. OTOH, If it is intentional mudslinging, its exceptionally weak, seeing as PG had just explained that K's helpfulness to noobs is not scummy in a basic.
3) This part might be harder to explain, but there is some slight evidence towards pika and MM being scumbuddies here. This will only ever become important if one of them flips scum at some point, but if that happens, look back here. The phrasing and attitude in this quote is a bit too chummy considering that MM is arguing against pika's point. It's subtle though, so you may have to reread it a few times to see what I mean.
This point is reaching extremely hard. No matter how many times I read the quote above, it doesn't look chummy. You're going to need to point out the exact words that are "chummy" and how the attitude is friendly at all.
Additionally, your explanation here doesn't point towards MM being scum at all.
I understand that Kahedron contradicted himself and deserves some attention, but DKD did exactly what WG did immediately after WG caught flak for his gambit. Does this merit no attention?
While a case could be made for MM deflecting from K here, it's not the only analysis that can be done on this post. If MM thinks DKD did exactly what WG did, why is he pushing DKD for it, but not WG? This again points to an inconsistent mindset.
Regardless of how you look at it, MM is deflecting from Kahedron here, its just a matter of whether he's doing it intentionally to protect a scumbuddy or in frustration that his target isn't getting the attention he wants it to. His reasons for voting DKD are clearly stated in the post where he votes DKD (which you've conveniently omitted :/ ).
MM's post #58 has this explanation: "WG's RVS-ending vote was not Townie-natured, it was thrown out with no explanation and caused multiple people to question his motives. MzztrTetris also reacted understandably: there was no OMGUS and no overreaction, simply a comment about votes with no substance. DKD places his vote to apply pressure to MzztrTetris who has done nothing wrong and adding pressure to a baseless case sounds scummy to me.
Vote dropkickdude"
Looks to me that maybe he just thinks DKD is a better target? Regardless of what MM was thinking, you can only vote one person at a time, and MM is pursuing one of the two people he identified. Temporarily giving one player a free pass because you're busy focusing your attention on another is not a scum tell. At best, if it happens consistently you may have a case for scumbuddies if either of them flips scum.
-I believe Kahedron to be scum. I still believe DKD is the lynch for today. One of the games I have finished reading is Flame Warriors Mafia. In it, Iso started out with a crazy terrible gambit and ended up day-killing a town. No one ever actually got over it and he was eventually lynched because of it.
Why did this not receive more attention? -MM compares DKD to a townie who was mislynched in another game, and appears to state that as a reason DKD should be lynched here. I don't believe this post could come from a townie. If anything, since MM has that Flame Warriors experience, he should be second guessing a DKD lynch.
It didn't recieve more attention because MM is not comparing DKD to a townie that was mislynched. In the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH you quoted, DKD is identified as the one who ran the "terrible gambit".
This is similar to what is happening with DKD. DKD ran a terrible gambit, refused to claim, and (this final point is assuming he is town) distracted the town from the actual scum. I can't fully get behind any other wagon until this is dealt with.
Again, MM is perfectly happy to let WG go, but wants to policy lynch DKD for running a gambit. -And MM even says he still wants to go through with the lynch if DKD is town, going so far as to have one of the three reasons he lists for wanting DKD lynched hinging on him being town (and really, it's two of the reasons, because DKD's "gambit" would instead be a "mistake then backpedaling" if DKD is scum.)
"MM even says he still wants to go through with the lynch if DKD is town, going so far as to have one of the three reasons he lists..." is the second point that I think is actually properly reasoned analysis of MM being scum.
Also, don't get me wrong here, I don't think these have anything to do with WG's alignment. I'm just pointing out the mindset issues in regard to DKD.
Out of the 7 points you put forward, only 2 actually show MM as scummy at all. The remaining points are either factually incorrect or identify "possible scumbuddies" while implying MM is scum. The flimsiness of most of this analysis made me feel like you were scrambling for arguments to throw at MM.
Also, you missed my question from an earlier post (regarding if W_G's summary was correct).
1. The situation would have been different if Kahedron asked to be replaced under pressure, but the fact that he up and left without a trace for a while (only to show up back in the Crafters clan thread saying he was without internet at his parents). It's more null to me than a scum tell.
I pointed this out already, but Kahedron became active again on the forums right after KCC replaced in. Why didn't he just take a V/LA? Regardless of accompanying circumstances, he was under pressure at the time and replaced out.
Think of it this way: Kahedron was under pressure, went on an undocumented V/LA, and then then asked for replacement. How is this particularly different from being under pressure to asking for a replacement?
@W_G (if you see this in the middle of my response to PG): Same question; How does the V/LA between the pressure and the replacement make a difference?
Also, PG, you missed my last question:
"Also, your town reads are all "leaning town for analysis". Do you think scum can't also be active and post analysis?"
With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
You have a seriously defeatist attitude towards this game if the above is true. You don't know if KCC is scum or not, but instead of trying to work it out, you choose to give up and let her get lynched by other players. Your questions are aiming to "cut your losses" so to speak.
From your insistence to stick with this strategy, I get the feeling that this is more your playstyle than you being scum. Just keep in mind that you're wasting the opportunity to truly contribute (by using the responses to your questions to analyze players)... each additional active, contributing town means better overall analysis and more accurate lynches.
With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
You have a seriously defeatist attitude towards this game if the above is true. You don't know if KCC is scum or not, but instead of trying to work it out, you choose to give up and let her get lynched by other players. Your questions are aiming to "cut your losses" so to speak.
From your insistence to stick with this strategy, I get the feeling that this is more your playstyle than you being scum. Just keep in mind that you're wasting the opportunity to truly contribute (by using the responses to your questions to analyze players)... each additional active, contributing town means better overall analysis and more accurate lynches.
"Cutting your losses" is a good way to put it. I don't have enough on KCC either way, so I'm willing to bow to mob rule and hope to gain something from that.
After spending 5 weeks on KOTH Mafia and it getting abandoned before we could even get to the end of Day one has left me somewhat annoyed. If you want to study up on my past behavior, that's an example of Town Kank. Am I playing Scum Kank here or yet another iteration of Town Kank again?
In the meantime, I'm waiting to hear from KCC on kill-joy and her thoughts in regards to her own mortality.
@Cellion: Yes, scum can post analysis and make it look like they're scumhunting. It's only after they make a slip or say something decidedly anti-town that we can discover that they're scum, right?
Also, I don't think Kahedron asked to be replaced. He was forcibly replaced. Had he asked to be replaced under pressure, it'd nail his coffin shut as scum, but seeing as he up and left without thinking twice about the game, I think it's more of a null tell.
@Cellion: Yes, scum can post analysis and make it look like they're scumhunting. It's only after they make a slip or say something decidedly anti-town that we can discover that they're scum, right?
Also, I don't think Kahedron asked to be replaced. He was forcibly replaced. Had he asked to be replaced under pressure, it'd nail his coffin shut as scum, but seeing as he up and left without thinking twice about the game, I think it's more of a null tell.
And now I'm waiting for KCC again...
Whether or not Kahedron asked to be replaced, he still could have used a V/LA preemptively or (if he had forgotten beforehand) at the same time as when he showed up in the Crafters thread. He chose not to do so. Again, is it that different to get replaced out due to not checking in (when you had the opportunity to) and requesting a replace out, especially when he was under pressure beforehand?
I mean, you admit that him requesting a replacement would nail his coffin shut, but him letting it happen automatically is a null tell?
@Cellion: Kahedron being able to post but failing to do so is a scumtell for him.
If he didn't have internet, even if he posted elsewhere to say he didn't have internet, I will not push him. He might have just forgotten about the game; certainly he'd remember the Crafters first.
@Kank: Why are you so interested on hearing people's opinions on specifically kill-joy?
@Cellion: Kahedron being able to post but failing to do so is a scumtell for him.
If he didn't have internet, even if he posted elsewhere to say he didn't have internet, I will not push him. He might have just forgotten about the game; certainly he'd remember the Crafters first.
@Kank: Why are you so interested on hearing people's opinions on specifically kill-joy?
I specifically want to hear from KCC about kill-joy because I believe them to be on opposite sides.
Re: Kahedron: He did the exact same thing on KOTH Mafia as he did here--disappeared without any warning and never made another post. He turned out to be town there.
@Cellion: Kahedron being able to post but failing to do so is a scumtell for him.
If he didn't have internet, even if he posted elsewhere to say he didn't have internet, I will not push him. He might have just forgotten about the game; certainly he'd remember the Crafters first.
@Kank: Why are you so interested on hearing people's opinions on specifically kill-joy?
I specifically want to hear from KCC about kill-joy because I believe them to be on opposite sides.
Re: Kahedron: He did the exact same thing on KOTH Mafia as he did here--disappeared without any warning and never made another post. He turned out to be town there.
That makes me feel better about Kahedron. I won't push KCC for stuff Kahedron did anymore.
On KCC and kill-joy: Do you believe it to be a dichotomy?
On KCC and kill-joy: Do you believe it to be a dichotomy?
kill-joy has been pushing so hard on lynching Kahedron/KCC, that I do believe that if one is scum, then the other is town. I'm at the point where it would not surprise me either way to see KCC flip as vanilla town or as a scum player of some sort. I do think that we are at the point where we can lynch KCC and go with what we learn from there, but I would REALLY like to hear her assessment on kill-joy before that happens.
@Cellion: IRL stuff happens that we sometimes can't predict. I think Kahedron believed that his parents had reliable internet when they in fact didn't. The exact same thing happened with DKD, but during a holiday time, so it was forgiven. Therefore, I believe it to be more of a null tell than a scum tell.
On KCC and kill-joy: Do you believe it to be a dichotomy?
kill-joy has been pushing so hard on lynching Kahedron/KCC, that I do believe that if one is scum, then the other is town. I'm at the point where it would not surprise me either way to see KCC flip as vanilla town or as a scum player of some sort. I do think that we are at the point where we can lynch KCC and go with what we learn from there, but I would REALLY like to hear her assessment on kill-joy before that happens.
Please KCC? Pretty please?
False Dichotomy, then. This makes you scummier in my eyes.
@Cellion: IRL stuff happens that we sometimes can't predict. I think Kahedron believed that his parents had reliable internet when they in fact didn't. The exact same thing happened with DKD, but during a holiday time, so it was forgiven. Therefore, I believe it to be more of a null tell than a scum tell.
@WG: What is dichotomy?
A dichotomy is where you have two players, one of which must be scum if the other is town. The only unknown variable is: Which is the town, and which is the scum?
On KCC and kill-joy: Do you believe it to be a dichotomy?
kill-joy has been pushing so hard on lynching Kahedron/KCC, that I do believe that if one is scum, then the other is town. I'm at the point where it would not surprise me either way to see KCC flip as vanilla town or as a scum player of some sort. I do think that we are at the point where we can lynch KCC and go with what we learn from there, but I would REALLY like to hear her assessment on kill-joy before that happens.
Please KCC? Pretty please?
False Dichotomy, then. This makes you scummier in my eyes.
@Cellion: IRL stuff happens that we sometimes can't predict. I think Kahedron believed that his parents had reliable internet when they in fact didn't. The exact same thing happened with DKD, but during a holiday time, so it was forgiven. Therefore, I believe it to be more of a null tell than a scum tell.
@WG: What is dichotomy?
A dichotomy is where you have two players, one of which must be scum if the other is town. The only unknown variable is: Which is the town, and which is the scum?
The one thing that I'm convinced of is that KCC and kill-joy are not BOTH scum. If one flips scum first, then that clears the other one in my mind. If one flips town first, then I'll be that much more suspicious of the other one. Yes, it is very possible that they are both town. I am not writing off that possibility.
I am also totally fine with you thinking I'm scummy. If everyone thinks I'm town and/or too useful to the town, then I'm not waking up tomorrow morning.
@Cellion: IRL stuff happens that we sometimes can't predict. I think Kahedron believed that his parents had reliable internet when they in fact didn't. The exact same thing happened with DKD, but during a holiday time, so it was forgiven. Therefore, I believe it to be more of a null tell than a scum tell.
DKD returned... so I'm not sure how its the same thing.
@Cellion: Kahedron being able to post but failing to do so is a scumtell for him.
If he didn't have internet, even if he posted elsewhere to say he didn't have internet, I will not push him. He might have just forgotten about the game; certainly he'd remember the Crafters first.
I guess I kind of expected my fellow townies to be more reliable than that. At least to check in when they have a chance, and to not get replaced for being afk.
Knowing that Kahedron has done this before as town makes me feel a little better about him, but it doesn't totally exonerate him in my eyes. While the timing of his lack of internet was unfortunate for his image, that he made no effort to chime in on the thread when he had a chance to (and while under suspicion) continues to sit poorly for me. I'll still be paying close attention to KCC.
@Cellion: It looks like the exact same situation where DKD went out of town thinking he'd have internet, but didn't. Kahedron didn't get a chance to chime back in because he was forcibly replaced first. That's the only difference. I'm pretty sure had Kah come back a day or two earlier, we'd be seeing another case of DKD. Also, DKD's incident happened during a holiday (where prods were also suspended), so we assumed he was V/LA, which is why it was allowed to slide. Kahedron was not afforded that luxury. On another note, why are you still so interested in Kahedron's possible scum tell now that he's been replaced?
I guess I kind of expected my fellow townies to be more reliable than that. At least to check in when they have a chance, and to not get replaced for being afk.
"My fellow townies?"
Really?
I can't imagine with you being town (and very town in some people's eyes) as wanting to say something like that lest you'd open yourself up as "Yo! I'm the town leader y'all! Go ahead and kill me scum team!"
What that does sound like is a very cocksure hiding-in-plain-sight scum player making a slip.
@Tezz: I believe we're waiting for KCC to post more reads to see what she can contribute before we decide to lynch her. BTW, if you believe KCC is scum, who do you think her other scumbuddies are?
@Kank: 'My fellow townies' is fairly awkward...
@Cellion: Did you ever answer how many games of mafia you've played (or other mafia experience)? If not, can you please answer now. From your post count, I don't imagine that you've completed any games on this site unless you're a more experienced player playing under another account.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
"My fellow townies?"
Really?
I can't imagine with you being town (and very town in some people's eyes) as wanting to say something like that lest you'd open yourself up as "Yo! I'm the town leader y'all! Go ahead and kill me scum team!"
What that does sound like is a very cocksure hiding-in-plain-sight scum player making a slip.
Are you being cheesy, scummy, or both?
The "my fellow townies" part is basically me saying: "I don't think town should act as unreliably as Kahedron did. I hope they'd check in the thread if they had temporary internet access and/or post a V/LA." The wording is just me being a bit wry because of how easily PG and W_G are dismissing Kahedron's scumminess.
Quote from PG »
On another note, why are you still so interested in Kahedron's possible scum tell now that he's been replaced?
Because Kahedron lurking under pressure and then getting replaced was one of the main reasons I voted him/KCC. I don't think that your information about him being mostly without internet absolves him of his actions, and I was trying to work out why you and W_G think it does.
@Cellion: Did you ever answer how many games of mafia you've played (or other mafia experience)? If not, can you please answer now. From your post count, I don't imagine that you've completed any games on this site unless you're a more experienced player playing under another account.
I mentioned it in the sign-up thread. This is my first ever game of mafia online or in real life. Just noticed the mafia section of MTGS one day a couple of months ago and started reading games while waiting for a new basic to start.
Did you see Kahedron's name at the bottom of the thread indicating that he was reading it? If you didn't, how can you be so sure that he was lurking? Also, would you care to answer my question about your experience?
Did you ever answer how many games of mafia you've played (or other mafia experience)? If not, can you please answer now. From your post count, I don't imagine that you've completed any games on this site unless you're a more experienced player playing under another account.
@PG: How did you feel about Cellion prior to him saying that 'my fellow townies' line? I've been feeling pretty towny vibes from him most of the game (I've been getting towny vibes from you too BTW). I would love love love to have more content from you on who you think is bad and why.
I second kill-joy's list of who he wants to see T/S lists from, especially Allwin who we've not heard from. I still want to hear what KCC has to say about you though. [Insert I'm watching you rageface]
So, Cellion: What does your current T/S list look like? How are you feeling about "our fellow towny" kill-joy?
KittyCupCake (4) – Polski, kill-joy, Cellion and dropkickdude
dropkickdude (1) – MechanicalMech
MechanicalMech (1) – Wheat_Grinder
Players not voting (6): Archae, pikachugundam, Allwinapprentice, Kankennon, KittyCupCake and MzztrTetris
With 12 villagers alive it takes 7 villagers to sail someone off into sunset.
If anyone sees a mistake with the vote count, then please inform either in game or via PM. Thank you. This vote count should be accurate through to Post #260.
I was feeling Cellion was pretty town prior to 'my fellow townies'... It doesn't sit well with me, but a gut feel like I had on Polski isn't going to cut it. Both have demonstrated town behavior, but a slip later and they both may be scum. We'll just have to wait and see.
Because Kahedron lurking under pressure and then getting replaced was one of the main reasons I voted him/KCC. I don't think that your information about him being mostly without internet absolves him of his actions, and I was trying to work out why you and W_G think it does.
I have a history of misreading Kahedron. I found that him replacing out under pressure is the only real scumtell for him.
@PG: How did you feel about Cellion prior to him saying that 'my fellow townies' line? I've been feeling pretty towny vibes from him most of the game (I've been getting towny vibes from you too BTW). I would love love love to have more content from you on who you think is bad and why.
I thought you suspected everyone?
T/S list is in a state of grand flux right now. The only things I suspect will remain as they are for the time being: Polski, MzztrTetris, and PG are town. DKD is probably town. And MechMech is scum.
I shall update as the alignments thrown up into the air from recent events settle down.
@Viking Mod: Requesting prods on MechMech and DKD. And if they haven't posted by tonight, KCC and Polski as well.
@WG: What's the case on MechMech? Wasn't it based on his buddying with Kahedron? So far the only suspects are looking guilty by association. (MechMech buddying with Kahedron and KJ deflecting from DKD)
It's not that I think she's town, it's that I'm not completely convinced that she is scum. I'd rather the condemned have a chance to speak first before being sailed off on a flaming barge. I notice that both you and WG share a desire to lynch without the subject defending themselves first as well as a desire to completely disregard a claim of any kind. If we lynch KCC before she has a chance to fully speak and she turns out to be Vanilla Town - Fishlegs, then what do we gain from that? Oh yeah, you might tell us that come Day 2 after she's already dead.
I want to know what KCC feels about WG because I have been suspicious of his motives of late, much like I have been suspicious of yours.
I'm pretty convinced that KCC/Kahedron is scum based on Kahedron replacing out under pressure and the posts that lead to that. However, after reading Kahedron's posts myself, I find myself simply agreeing with the analysis put together by other players. Since this analysis is secondhand, and I'm not an experienced player, I'm a little worried that I'm being too accepting of other people's reads. As a result, I'm hoping to analyze the reads KCC will be providing myself. If I can see scummy motivation/phrasing/etc then my uneasiness is relieved and I can vote KCC confident that my independent analysis is matching up to reads possibly affected by other player's analysis.
Other than allowing me to vote confidently, holding off on lynching KCC until we have her reads gets us:
- More posts to analyze. These should contain further scumtells than may convince the people currently not voting.
- In case KCC is actually town, we'll have a set of guaranteed townie reads to compare with our own for Day 2.
- Regardless of how KCC flips, how other players interacted with her during her posts today will be useful to analyze going forwards.
Lynching her immediately on the other hand get us (based on your earlier post):
- Less time for her talk her way out of the lynch
Maybe I'm naive, but I'm convinced that if she's really scum and we're properly analyzing everything she says this is pretty unlikely.
I think a word or two was lost here, because I'm not clear what you're saying you demonstrated the benefits of.
I don't feel like you need to reveal it if its disadvantageous to do so, mostly because you're not using this information as a reason to push anything.
unvote; vote KCC
Ultimately, I believe my vote will go on KCC regardless of the responses I recieve to my questions for her. I find it unlikely that she isn't scum based on Kahedron's actions, and her early response with the T/S list has already looked sketchy. Knowing that there is some leeway for me to ask questions and for us to hear her reads before her lynch makes a big difference (for the reasons I stated in the list above).
@KCC:
So you agree with the contents of W_G's quote other than the fact that you're not scum?
Since you're all caught up on reading, could you please explain your reads on Pikachugundam, MechanicalMech and Kill-joy and why you think they're scum?
She can say whatever she likes. There's not a whole lot she can say that would convince me at this point.
As far as disregarding the claim... she claimed Vanilla. I share TheColdMonarch's philosophy in this case.
See Rule #3.
And like I've said before... I HIGHLY doubt she will flip town. But I'll play DA here. If she does flip town, then obviously we gain nothing except <redacted> from her lynch. (Seriously, if you wanna know... take a vote. In fact, I'll start it for you).
Everyone: Yay or Nay: I want KJ to tell us this "secret" he's been holding off telling us right now.
I'd prefer not to, but I will if it's asked of me. We just gain less information that way.
Re Wheat: Is that the only reason you're suspicious? Due to recent events? Or is there more to it?
That's actually a good way to go, taking the reads of the more experienced players with a grain of salt. I made that mistake in my first game.
The more I read these, the more I think I'm being selfish and tunnely. Just cuz I'm convinced doesn't mean everyone else is. I should really think about that more than my own opinion on the matter.
The bolded are really good reasons I hadn't considered. So, I find myself wanting to at least give her the chance to provide her reads.
Essentially I meant to say that I had demonstrated that the benefits of lynching Kahedron before replacement (due to his scumminess) outweighed the benefits of holding out in the unlikely chance he was town. But obviously that holds less weight now that he was replaced, and that I'm willing to give KCC a little slack.
Yea: 0
Nay: 2 (kill-joy, Cellion)
Ok.
@KCC:
I would like to echo other's desires for a T/S list with reasons.
Not much else to ask that other's haven't already asked and that isn't covered by "T/S list with reasons".
Re: Wheat--If you haven't noticed, I've been wary of his erratic behavior all game. This whole "Let's lynch KCC before she can say anything" that kill-joy and WG have been spearheading is not digesting well with me.
If KCC ends up flipping scum after all, then I give everyone permission to get pissy with me come Day 2 for being such a stalwart fencesitter today (if I survive the night).
1. Kahedron/KittyCupCake - Null. Replaced after some n00b advice. Would like to see KCC's case on me.
2. Wheat Grinder - Leaning town since he's been actively scumhunting.
3. Storyteller/AWA - Null read. Needs to post more. And so does the replacement.
4. Archae - Leaning town for analysis.
5. pikachugundam - Town. PM says so.
6. Cellion - Leaning town for analysis.
7. MzztrTetris - Null. Needs to post more than 1 liners. Lurking perhaps?
8. MechanicalMech (m. ZDS) - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
9. dropkickdude - Leaning scum for lying. First said that he would not provide analysis until people unvoted him, then comes back and says it was because he really hadn't had the time. Well, was it the first or the second and if the second why even say the first?
10. Polski - Leaning n00b Null. Can't tell if n00b town or n00b scum...
11. kill-joy - Leaning town for analysis.
12. Kankennon - Leaning town for massive amounts of text and analysis.
I would really like to see KCC's reasoning before casting a vote and would appreciate it if no one else voted for her until she has time to post such seeing as she is at L-2.
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@pika: You're taking my posts way out of context and misinterpreting/misrepresenting what actually happened. I needed people off my case so I could spend some time analyzing instead of having to defend myself every other minute from new attacks.
Modern
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@both Can I get a general amount of games you've played?
@KittyCupCake I am interested in hearing a case on me that doesn't require you to be scum. Please elaborate.
@WG Was this meant to say "No I will not provide games for you to read"?
@KJ As long as the information doesn't change the lynch for today, keep the information hidden.
Bolding mine. I see no need to have included that first part about needing people to unvote you first. Simply saying the second part that you didn't have time would have been sufficient. Wheat may have given a pass on that, but if anything that was a very anti-town thing to say. So in other words, your responses to defend yourself weren't that great, so I'm still suspicious.
@KJ: If the information is not vital, twilight is fine. If you find us lynching someone else, but the information will be relevant, then share it.
@KCC: Still waiting for response...
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I would like to see your analysis of PG, KJ, and Kank. Those are the big deviations from my list.
I will do so...probably tomorrow or Friday. Not sure which; I kinda feel like being lazy today since I finished my last midterm and don't have to study too hard for a week or so.
It was not; I must've missed your post. I will provide games tomorrow or Friday as well.
I'm not liking the "I'm fine with her dying regardless of how she flips"... it reads as if you're fine with her flipping town. Also, you seem to be implying that you'd be okay with voting her (obviously at a later time), but the remainder of your post avoids ever saying so.
Overall, my impression reading this post was that you're still undecided about KCCs alignment, but you're not planning on analyzing her posts Today to determine what alignment you feel she is. Instead you take her lynch for granted and focus on getting her "point of view" (dismissing who was on her wagon as unimportant in comparison). This kind of behavior doesn't strike me as particularly town.
Also, if you say something like "I'm fine with her dying, no matter what direction she flips" I get the feeling that you're for her lynch, in contrast to the rest of your post.
Can you explain why you're taking this stance?
Also, In the above post, why do you feel that you'll learn more Tomorrow by paying attention to KCC's point of view than by analyzing who is on her wagon?
@Pikachugundam:
Do you not consider replacing out when under pressure from other players a scumtell?
I read this "massive amounts of text and analysis", found it completely opposite to my impressions, and with some skepticism went back to look over Kank's posts. While Kank has been a fairly frequent poster (looks like ~10-15% of the posts over the last few days), I wouldn't say that his individual posts have had large amounts of text. More importantly, I see a lot of questions, but not a whole lot of analysis. In fact, looking back on the last 10 or so posts from Kank, not a single one takes the responses to the questions he's asked and makes any conclusions from them. I'd argue that instead of "massive amounts of analysis" he's keeping his cards close to his chest.
How did you end up with this conclusion?
Also, your town reads are all "leaning town for analysis". Do you think scum can't also be active and post analysis?
I'm eager to see Allwin post content, primarily because his predecessor left us with nothing. I know how finals can be so I'm not pushing it but I'd definitely like to see it.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
The first thing I'd like to emphasize, is that while the case presented so far is good, it's slightly off the mark in the relationship to my role. This will be very important to remember tomorrow, if you go through with lynching me today, because I don't want you all sweeping this case under the rug once I flip town -remember, it still holds water, keep your focus here.
Mech claims to have a slight scum read on K, but none of this language reads that way. "Nonsense" and "bad play" aren't accusatory words, they are words you throw at someone you think is town and making mistakes. -And while there would certainly be reasons for MM to try making a statement like this if K was a scumbuddy, they are just as likely to come from scum trying to paint a townie in a bad light.
The important thing to focus on here is the disconnect between the words, actions, and claimed mindset. They are all off, regardless of my alignment, which makes MM likely scum.
Even though pika explained why being helpful with game reminders is a clear non-tell in basics, MM ignores that to stretch some more negative attention onto K.
Important things to note here:
1) Basics are primarily teaching tools; explaining things midgame here is not a tell, and this is doubly true for someone like Kahedron, who lives over in the Rulings Forum. (This part is less about MM's alignment than just being something that needs to be said -I understand that MM's being new would make him not fully aware of this, though his dismissing of pika's explanation is still scummy.)
2) This quote is further evidence that MM's scumminess is not reliant on my being scum, as popular opinion currently holds. -If K was a scumbuddy, why would MM smear him here like this? Why not instead let pika alleviate some of the pressure without comment? If you lynch me today, gold star this post for tomorrow, because this was horrible mudslinging from MM.
3) This part might be harder to explain, but there is some slight evidence towards pika and MM being scumbuddies here. This will only ever become important if one of them flips scum at some point, but if that happens, look back here. The phrasing and attitude in this quote is a bit too chummy considering that MM is arguing against pika's point. It's subtle though, so you may have to reread it a few times to see what I mean.
While a case could be made for MM deflecting from K here, it's not the only analysis that can be done on this post. If MM thinks DKD did exactly what WG did, why is he pushing DKD for it, but not WG? This again points to an inconsistent mindset.
Why did this not receive more attention? -MM compares DKD to a townie who was mislynched in another game, and appears to state that as a reason DKD should be lynched here. I don't believe this post could come from a townie. If anything, since MM has that Flame Warriors experience, he should be second guessing a DKD lynch.
Again, MM is perfectly happy to let WG go, but wants to policy lynch DKD for running a gambit. -And MM even says he still wants to go through with the lynch if DKD is town, going so far as to have one of the three reasons he lists for wanting DKD lynched hinging on him being town (and really, it's two of the reasons, because DKD's "gambit" would instead be a "mistake then backpedaling" if DKD is scum.)
Also, don't get me wrong here, I don't think these have anything to do with WG's alignment. I'm just pointing out the mindset issues in regard to DKD.
I would direct you to my blog for my mafia stats, but they seem to be down atm. I'd guess around 30 or so games here, and hundreds more between IRC and IRL.
-And I have some more time, so pika next.
This is analysis of every one of pika's posts, in full. -I usually shy away from complete PBPAs, but I did this one this way, because it's the best way to illustrate the issue:
RVS
Experience claim.
V/LA notice
This is his first content.
He makes a decent suggestion to ST, then asks two other minor questions.
And the t/s list here is mostly meaningless, consisting almost entirely of town reads, excepting only two low posters as null, a weak scum read on a RVS vote, and the only scum being the main suspect of the thread. -Though, it's not terrible for this early in the game.
Edit
Here, he mostly responds to questions. His answers to 1, 7, 9, and 12 are okay. 10 is a little weak, but again, fine for this stage of the game.
He also asks another minor question to kj, and then backs away a bit from one of his only scum reads, in a way that almost reads like an apology.
And again, he downgrades his read even further into an otherwise null read, barely on his scumdar. I could see this coming from nervous, unsure town, except that, "if you don't like my reads, then that's fine with me," as well as the response to Kank, are a little too direct and confident for that. I could also see this coming from a townie with just the slightest read, as he claims, but then why not probe Pol more (or at all)?
Just minor clarification responses to Arch and MM.
The lack of anything here is especially important, considering that the clear attitude pika has when responding to MM here really should have something more following it up.
And here, pika is still doing nothing, while also backing away from his only scum read, and fence-sitting on DKD's analysis as an added bonus.
This has become blatant active lurking.
Also, here is pika's second and last interaction with his other minor scum read... and it's encouragement?
More nothing of any relevance to the game.
Some chat about mentors.
And then some actual content in response to kank: noting a good point :thumbsup:, wanting to see an explanation :thumbsup:, and then... defending kj :thumbsdown:, and providing a possible excuse for him to use :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:.
Another worthless post.
Nothing but asking for content that is obviously coming (though most of the thread did that repeatedly, so :shrug:)
It's a mix of POE from my town reads, and your active lurking, lack of scumhunting, and non-committal stances on everything, including backing away from your few scum reads.
And now the bonus case:
Here we have, somehow, an even worse t/s list than at the beginning of the game. Still lots of town reads, but less, in favor of lots more null reads. And one weak scum read. At this stage of the day, that lack of reads is not okay, especially when combined with the lack of doing anything to get better reads.
This, however, is probably the best post pika has made all game. It's small, but it at least looks like analysis, and asks what could be a scumhunting question.
Overall, pika is my weakest read. The lack of real content, and avoidance of the main issues, from one of the game's top posters is worth noting, but it could potentially come from nervous/cautious town. However, there are some bits noted above which demonstrate an attitude that leads me away from that conclusion being the most likely explanation. -So, I'm leaning scum, but pika, if you are town, please get more involved.
I will get to kj, and some explanation of my town reads as well, soon, probably tomorrow.
Unvote
1. The situation would have been different if Kahedron asked to be replaced under pressure, but the fact that he up and left without a trace for a while (only to show up back in the Crafters clan thread saying he was without internet at his parents). It's more null to me than a scum tell.
12. Kank early on posted massive amounts of text which had some analysis. I didn't bother changing it since my read on Kank hadn't changed. It's suppose to read as 'massive amounts of text' (which according to Seppel is a townie read) and 'analysis' not 'massive amounts of analysis' as well...
@KCC: This is my second game which is concurrent with my first game... I'm doing the best I can. Will get to your PBPA in a second...
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With KCC being able to speak before getting lynched, that gives us more to go by (see post #226). I feel the odds are just as good as her flipping vanilla town as flipping to be a scum player of any kind, so I wanted to have at least her views to go by in hindsight if I am still alive to use them come Day 2. Since everyone else seems so convinced that KCC is scum through Kahedron's muddy footprints, I have come to peace with the idea of having to lose a VT in the hopes of gaining what can be gained from finding out her true alignment upon her death and investigating those on her wagon. If she is town, we would have the views of a confirmed townie. If she is scum, we would have the rhetoric of a confirmed scummer to decipher then instead. Either way, I figure that to be more useful than having nothing at all from her before she dies.
@KCC: Thank you for posting your assessments! I look forward to your kill-joy review more than anything right now!
Also, if you are indeed town, are you willing to take one for the team and be the martyr of Day 1 so that we can take what we can from your death and use that to hunt down the villains come Day 2, or would you rather try to stay alive at any cost and convince everyone to jump on a different wagon instead?
Bolding and numbering mine... to make responding easier...
1. RVS... Doesn't say much...
2. Experience claim. Good or bad thing to do?
3. V/LA notice... Doesn't say much either...
4. I thought all 3 questions were relevant. What makes you think they're minor?
5. Edit... Whoopsies?
6. Pointing out lack of content from being V/LA. And trying to clarify that my read was slightly above null. It never was anything above that. I'm not backing off from something that was never really there.
7. Further clarifying my point. With Polski leaning null n00b, I wasn't quite sure how to proceed.
8. I felt that MM hadn't read my post carefully enough. That's why I left it there.
9. I'd just been prodded. I was a little frantic and posted something... ANYTHING.
10. The game had slowed down, and I'd been pointed to that game to read in my other game. The more experienced players felt that it was a good game to read, so I decided to share it with the others in this basic. Is that so scummy? Also, since you said, that this is essentially a teaching game, I don't see why offering encouragement to other players regardless of alignment is anything special. It's a game afterall.
11. More waiting for people to come in to post and answering a question. How is that not relevant? Would you prefer I didn't answer the questions people asked me?
12. I didn't think I was defending KJ. I was providing Kank with what possibilities I saw. I never thought of it as giving KJ excuses to use.
13. & 14. Me being confused and seeking clarification. Is that so wrong?
15. I think you're dismissing my need for clarification and questions/points I thought were useful as useless, which is why you think I'm lurking.
16. Would it make you feel any better if I told you that my null reads are null because of town behavior that's been cancelled out by scummy behavior?
17. I think I've been scumhunting in my own way. Just because you don't see it though doesn't mean that it's not there...
Also... you missed a couple...
and
Now the real question is: Did you miss these on purpose because they would not help your case against me? Perhaps since in your case on MechMech you say that we're buddying. If we're buddying, then why'd I insult him?
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I have finally been able to finish reading this game(the nested quotes were a pain). I hope to have at minimum a T/S list up for inquiry later today. Thanks for your patience in this hectic time.
As for my experience, I played in the CCM and I am currently in Basic 70.
Is the bolded to say that you are not suspicious of KittyCupCake at all, or just that you're not 'so' convinced? You say that odds are equally good that she is scum or vanilla town, and your language towards her is saccharine. Do you have no read on the Kahedron/KittyCupCake duo? What do you think of the arguments that have been put forth? If they are wrong, why?
Also, since you seem to want to fence-sit about as hard as possible here, does that mean that odds are also approximately even that dropkickdude is town or scum? Then your only scum read might be kill-joy?
Whom else do you see as scummy, and why? I'm not looking for whom you'd like to hear from or who looks scummier if someone flips town/scum, but rather who you actively think does not have the town's best interests at heart.
!!!
Unvote, Vote: MechanicalMech
If Kahedron was without internet, it deflates the only point that is, for me, reliable against him. I always find Kah scummy, so I no longer trust my read now.
I had previously been under the impression Kah was just lurking rather than completely absent, which is something he does as scum. But if it's just a lack of internet I will no longer push him for it.
@KCC: If you get the chance, please read through at least part of the CCMVI Crafters chat. It's the closest you can get for meta for PG. I only bring this up because your points on PG only seem to serve up a PG mindset rather than a scum mindset.
Looks to be a light day at work so I'll go try and assess KJ here.
A Certain Magical Assessment on kill-joy, spoilered for your viewing pleasure.
This is pretty standard RVS kill-joy. Reminds me of the time in CCMVI where we sang the Digimon theme during RVS. And of course, from the same game, COVERED IN *****ES.
KJ making good points while still sounding like he normally does.
Which might have been a problem but for...
Which is townie reasoning, plus oodles of content.
Oodles more content.
I still don't think this was a bad suggestion.
I hate nested quotes because they make reading a pain, didn't see anything that popped out at me in the rest of these posts.
So yeah I feel KJ is probably town.
If you're not going to have internet for a while, that's a reason for a V/LA, not a replace out. It does nothing to change the fact that he replaced out under pressure. Furthermore, the day after KCC joins us, Kahedron obviously has internet again (ie. you can see he's posting on the forums quite a bit once again by looking at his posting history) so he could be back in this game right now if he wanted to.
The way you're swinging with such alarm (and on to MM with no reasoning provided) is... alarming, to say the least.
@ KCC, Kank, PG:
Hopefully, I'll be able to respond to the three of you this evening. I just needed to get my surprise over this W_G post out of my system.
I'm suspicious of everybody, some more than others. I go through life constantly in a natural state of skepticism. It's not that I have no read on either DKD or Kah/KCC, it's that I'm not convinced that they are scum. Oh, either one could definitely be, I'm just not convinced of it. Keep in mind, I'm a person that's not convinced that all matter in the universe came into being a mere 13.7 billion years ago let alone any branch of human-based theology that has ever existed.
I'm currently trying to persue an investigation on the reasonings behind the actions of kill-joy and Wheat_Grinder.
If you go read that Crafters CCM chat that WG linked to, you'll find that I was surprisingly adept at predicting events, yet quite poor at determining alignments of scum. Prior to this game and whatever you want to call KOTH Mafia, that was my first taste of what Mafia is.
While I didn't fine much scummy about your analysis of PG, I do have some issues with the reaching you did to support your MM case. While I also feel that MM is somewhat scummy, the posts I have problems with are completely different than the ones you've used here. In fact, I find most of the posts that you provided to do absolutely nothing for the case that you're town and MM's scum.
I've left your spoiler in to keep the post size bloat down a bit, my analysis is in red.
Out of the 7 points you put forward, only 2 actually show MM as scummy at all. The remaining points are either factually incorrect or identify "possible scumbuddies" while implying MM is scum. The flimsiness of most of this analysis made me feel like you were scrambling for arguments to throw at MM.
Also, you missed my question from an earlier post (regarding if W_G's summary was correct).
@PG:
I pointed this out already, but Kahedron became active again on the forums right after KCC replaced in. Why didn't he just take a V/LA? Regardless of accompanying circumstances, he was under pressure at the time and replaced out.
Think of it this way: Kahedron was under pressure, went on an undocumented V/LA, and then then asked for replacement. How is this particularly different from being under pressure to asking for a replacement?
@W_G (if you see this in the middle of my response to PG): Same question; How does the V/LA between the pressure and the replacement make a difference?
Also, PG, you missed my last question:
"Also, your town reads are all "leaning town for analysis". Do you think scum can't also be active and post analysis?"
@Kank:
You have a seriously defeatist attitude towards this game if the above is true. You don't know if KCC is scum or not, but instead of trying to work it out, you choose to give up and let her get lynched by other players. Your questions are aiming to "cut your losses" so to speak.
From your insistence to stick with this strategy, I get the feeling that this is more your playstyle than you being scum. Just keep in mind that you're wasting the opportunity to truly contribute (by using the responses to your questions to analyze players)... each additional active, contributing town means better overall analysis and more accurate lynches.
"Cutting your losses" is a good way to put it. I don't have enough on KCC either way, so I'm willing to bow to mob rule and hope to gain something from that.
After spending 5 weeks on KOTH Mafia and it getting abandoned before we could even get to the end of Day one has left me somewhat annoyed. If you want to study up on my past behavior, that's an example of Town Kank. Am I playing Scum Kank here or yet another iteration of Town Kank again?
In the meantime, I'm waiting to hear from KCC on kill-joy and her thoughts in regards to her own mortality.
Also, I don't think Kahedron asked to be replaced. He was forcibly replaced. Had he asked to be replaced under pressure, it'd nail his coffin shut as scum, but seeing as he up and left without thinking twice about the game, I think it's more of a null tell.
And now I'm waiting for KCC again...
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Whether or not Kahedron asked to be replaced, he still could have used a V/LA preemptively or (if he had forgotten beforehand) at the same time as when he showed up in the Crafters thread. He chose not to do so. Again, is it that different to get replaced out due to not checking in (when you had the opportunity to) and requesting a replace out, especially when he was under pressure beforehand?
I mean, you admit that him requesting a replacement would nail his coffin shut, but him letting it happen automatically is a null tell?
If he didn't have internet, even if he posted elsewhere to say he didn't have internet, I will not push him. He might have just forgotten about the game; certainly he'd remember the Crafters first.
@Kank: Why are you so interested on hearing people's opinions on specifically kill-joy?
I specifically want to hear from KCC about kill-joy because I believe them to be on opposite sides.
Re: Kahedron: He did the exact same thing on KOTH Mafia as he did here--disappeared without any warning and never made another post. He turned out to be town there.
That makes me feel better about Kahedron. I won't push KCC for stuff Kahedron did anymore.
On KCC and kill-joy: Do you believe it to be a dichotomy?
kill-joy has been pushing so hard on lynching Kahedron/KCC, that I do believe that if one is scum, then the other is town. I'm at the point where it would not surprise me either way to see KCC flip as vanilla town or as a scum player of some sort. I do think that we are at the point where we can lynch KCC and go with what we learn from there, but I would REALLY like to hear her assessment on kill-joy before that happens.
Please KCC? Pretty please?
@WG: What is dichotomy?
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False Dichotomy, then. This makes you scummier in my eyes.
A dichotomy is where you have two players, one of which must be scum if the other is town. The only unknown variable is: Which is the town, and which is the scum?
The one thing that I'm convinced of is that KCC and kill-joy are not BOTH scum. If one flips scum first, then that clears the other one in my mind. If one flips town first, then I'll be that much more suspicious of the other one. Yes, it is very possible that they are both town. I am not writing off that possibility.
I am also totally fine with you thinking I'm scummy. If everyone thinks I'm town and/or too useful to the town, then I'm not waking up tomorrow morning.
DKD returned... so I'm not sure how its the same thing.
I guess I kind of expected my fellow townies to be more reliable than that. At least to check in when they have a chance, and to not get replaced for being afk.
Knowing that Kahedron has done this before as town makes me feel a little better about him, but it doesn't totally exonerate him in my eyes. While the timing of his lack of internet was unfortunate for his image, that he made no effort to chime in on the thread when he had a chance to (and while under suspicion) continues to sit poorly for me. I'll still be paying close attention to KCC.
@WG: Thanks.
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"My fellow townies?"
Really?
I can't imagine with you being town (and very town in some people's eyes) as wanting to say something like that lest you'd open yourself up as "Yo! I'm the town leader y'all! Go ahead and kill me scum team!"
What that does sound like is a very cocksure hiding-in-plain-sight scum player making a slip.
Are you being cheesy, scummy, or both?
@Kank: 'My fellow townies' is fairly awkward...
@Cellion: Did you ever answer how many games of mafia you've played (or other mafia experience)? If not, can you please answer now. From your post count, I don't imagine that you've completed any games on this site unless you're a more experienced player playing under another account.
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In the meantime, I want to hear from Tezz, Allwin, and Wheat. Can you guys post detailed town/scum lists for me? Thanks.
The "my fellow townies" part is basically me saying: "I don't think town should act as unreliably as Kahedron did. I hope they'd check in the thread if they had temporary internet access and/or post a V/LA." The wording is just me being a bit wry because of how easily PG and W_G are dismissing Kahedron's scumminess.
Because Kahedron lurking under pressure and then getting replaced was one of the main reasons I voted him/KCC. I don't think that your information about him being mostly without internet absolves him of his actions, and I was trying to work out why you and W_G think it does.
I think she's scum based on Kahedron's actions. There's too few posts so far from her for me to make a read on her actions alone.
I mentioned it in the sign-up thread. This is my first ever game of mafia online or in real life. Just noticed the mafia section of MTGS one day a couple of months ago and started reading games while waiting for a new basic to start.
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I second kill-joy's list of who he wants to see T/S lists from, especially Allwin who we've not heard from. I still want to hear what KCC has to say about you though. [Insert I'm watching you rageface]
So, Cellion: What does your current T/S list look like? How are you feeling about "our fellow towny" kill-joy?
KittyCupCake (4) – Polski, kill-joy, Cellion and dropkickdude
dropkickdude (1) – MechanicalMech
MechanicalMech (1) – Wheat_Grinder
Players not voting (6): Archae, pikachugundam, Allwinapprentice, Kankennon, KittyCupCake and MzztrTetris
With 12 villagers alive it takes 7 villagers to sail someone off into sunset.
If anyone sees a mistake with the vote count, then please inform either in game or via PM. Thank you. This vote count should be accurate through to Post #260.
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I have a history of misreading Kahedron. I found that him replacing out under pressure is the only real scumtell for him.
Why then, did you specifically refer to Kahedron in the statement "my fellow townies"?
I thought you suspected everyone?
T/S list is in a state of grand flux right now. The only things I suspect will remain as they are for the time being: Polski, MzztrTetris, and PG are town. DKD is probably town. And MechMech is scum.
I shall update as the alignments thrown up into the air from recent events settle down.
@WG: What's the case on MechMech? Wasn't it based on his buddying with Kahedron? So far the only suspects are looking guilty by association. (MechMech buddying with Kahedron and KJ deflecting from DKD)
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