Hello, and welcome to OT2R Mafia, the second game for the MTGS Mafia League Beta Season!
This game is near-flavorless, similar to Ged's Normal. To get us through the quiet winter, this is a 7-player game with an open setup.
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TOWN Cop(Each night, you may investigate one person by PMing the moderator. Your will receive the result of "town" or "mafia.") Governor (Once per game when a player's lynch has been determined, you have 24 hours to PM the moderator that you want to overturn one lynch to either (a) stop the lynch, or (b) lynch a different person entirely.) Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
MAFIA Godfather (You investigate as "town" instead of "mafia.") Goon
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Game Length
In an effort to keep the game moving smoothly, the league day timer is still in effect. The following deadlines are imposed:
Day1: 11 days
Day2: 8 days
Day3: 5 days
Day4: 5 days
If no lynch is reached by the end of that time period, the day will end in no-lynch and the Governor will not be able to use his/her power. Additionally, the mafia must kill at night. If no target is chosen, a target will be chosen at random.
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Alive: (1/7)
1. The Cold Monarch, mafia goon, survived to endgame.
Dead:
1. Archmage Eternal, vanilla townie, lynched Day 1.
2. Void, town cop, killed Night 1.
3. Azrael, mafia godfather, lynched Day 2.
4. SharkFinnigan, town governor, killed Night 2.
5. SilverSihhe, vanilla townie, endgamed Day 3.
6. Voxxicus, vanilla townie, endgamed Day 3.
Vote Azrael for getting me to play this damn game.
Why did Azrael make you join this game? Would you still be here even if he's not?
Nah I mean Mafia in general. Some number of months ago, he hit me up when we were posting in CI and said that I should look into trying Mafia. So here I am. First time we've been in a game together, though, and I'm pretty sure that it's as good of a justification for an RVS vote as any
I'm not so certain that's very clear, actually. Why would you say that it's clear?
Also, I have no scum tells. Clearly. I am only ever caught by pure serendipity. That, and activity tells tend to be my bane, in later stages of the game. But I'm sure that this game, I'll be able to overcome that shortcoming though and fool everyone.
Are you familiar with everyone else in the game? I haven't played with Shark before, myself, or Vox, though I've seen his name bandied around a bit. Opinions on them?
Also, you never did say who you wanted me to vig tonight.
I'm not so certain that's very clear, actually. Why would you say that it's clear?
Also, I have no scum tells. Clearly. I am only ever caught by pure serendipity. That, and activity tells tend to be my bane, in later stages of the game. But I'm sure that this game, I'll be able to overcome that shortcoming though and fool everyone.
Are you familiar with everyone else in the game? I haven't played with Shark before, myself, or Vox, though I've seen his name bandied around a bit. Opinions on them?
Also, you never did say who you wanted me to vig tonight.
I think that two things are very clear: asking someone if they're town at the start of a game is meaningless aside from the reactions gauged therein. Town will say that they're town, and scum will say that they're town. As such, for what you're asking for, the depths of the clarity of my towniness is irrelevant. That's not what you're looking for.
I also think that it's very clear that you don't want to have an RVS, which saddens me, because RVS can be hysterical (even if, in my fledgling sense of mafia theory, I concede that it's a waste of time).
I've played with everyone in here except for you and Cold Monarch (is TCM acceptable?). Shark and I have a habit of thinking that the other is scum, every time we run into each other. Vox is a pretty swell guy, from the one time I've played with him.
Also, there still isn't a vig in this setup. Nor would I attempt to direct you if you were: both because directing power roles is unethical (it assumes that you do not respect the PR's intellect sufficiently to make their own decision), but also because somewhere along the way, I was introduced to the term Aezwolg, so I know that it wouldn't do any good anyway!
If you had the capacity to vig, I'd suggest you not vig, unless we lynch scum today (given 6p, 2s night, you shooting has a fairly likely chance of ending game before D2 if you miss and then scum kills another player)
If you could vig safely and were actually vig and you listened to my suggestions, I'd initially direct towards a player I have a null read on, as vigging them gives us the best chance to read players we cannot otherwise read (TCM or yourself are my short list).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
I think that two things are very clear: asking someone if they're town at the start of a game is meaningless aside from the reactions gauged therein.
True.
Quote from SilverSihhe »
Town will say that they're town, and scum will say that they're town.
Not necessarily. Actually, there tends to be quite a degree of variance.
Quote from SilverSihhe »
As such, for what you're asking for, the depths of the clarity of my towniness is irrelevant. That's not what you're looking for.
On the contrary, I think nothing be more relevant than whether it's clear that you're town, or scum. In this case, you said you're clearly town.
It sounds like what you actually meant was that clearly, you needed to say that you were town. And there seems to be quite a difference between those two ideas, hmm?
Quote from SilverSihhe »
I also think that it's very clear that you don't want to have an RVS, which saddens me, because RVS can be hysterical (even if, in my fledgling sense of mafia theory, I concede that it's a waste of time).
I don't mind having a RVS. I just think it should last for as long as it takes me to make my first post. So little time, so many scum to kill...
11 days real time isn't a lot to work with, and a 7-player setup only has a two-lynch margin of error. It's pretty easy for the scum to take out a 5-man town if they drag their heels.
Quote from Silver »
Also, there still isn't a vig in this setup. Nor would I attempt to direct you if you were: both because directing power roles is unethical (it assumes that you do not respect the PR's intellect sufficiently to make their own decision), but also because somewhere along the way, I was introduced to the term Aezwolg, so I know that it wouldn't do any good anyway!
Unethical, hmm, strong word.
I actually don't mind directing power roles one bit, after they're claimed. Group decisions tend to be better than individual decisions as a general rule, no matter your experience or intelligence, as the term Aezwolg has helpfully demonstrated.
If you had the capacity to vig, I'd suggest you not vig, unless we lynch scum today (given 6p, 2s night, you shooting has a fairly likely chance of ending game before D2 if you miss and then scum kills another player)
If you could vig safely and were actually vig and you listened to my suggestions, I'd initially direct towards a player I have a null read on, as vigging them gives us the best chance to read players we cannot otherwise read (TCM or yourself are my short list).
Null read viggings, huh?
Why TCM and myself? Experience?
Can you imagine any potential...downsides...to blasting away experienced players via vig?
I think the one game I played with Shark was in Gotham Underground, only getting caught because this jerkhole shot me in the face ( I still don't know if you considered my role, or my playstyle as the reason for targeting me, but eh).
Serious buisness: I have heard that when you have an open set-up with a cop (bonus when there is no roleblocker), you are supposed to no-lynch day 1, to allow the cop a night to figure **** out. There are two problems with this plan in this particular set-up (1000 points to whoever can figure that out).
That being said, are there any recommendations? I have never played with an open setup before, and I am not sure if there is a strategy that we can use. The Godfather is a check to the cop, and the Governor prevents a speedlynch tomorrow, should we mislynch today.
If you had the capacity to vig, I'd suggest you not vig, unless we lynch scum today (given 6p, 2s night, you shooting has a fairly likely chance of ending game before D2 if you miss and then scum kills another player)
If you could vig safely and were actually vig and you listened to my suggestions, I'd initially direct towards a player I have a null read on, as vigging them gives us the best chance to read players we cannot otherwise read (TCM or yourself are my short list).
Null read viggings, huh?
Why TCM and myself? Experience?
TCM I've played with and you I've read a game you were in. Your playstyles lend themselves to be harder to read, so if there is not another viable target, I'd go for a player reading null that feels off by distancing. Example would be when I shot TCM in Gotham.
I think the one game I played with Shark was in Gotham Underground, only getting caught because this jerkhole shot me in the face ( I still don't know if you considered my role, or my playstyle as the reason for targeting me, but eh).
Apologies, I targetted you because of the playstyle and the fact you just seemed to pop in, comment on stuff, and leave for a while. It felt like you were trying to look town, but only barely be on anyone's scope.
And I was SK, so killing you really didn't hurt me at all even if you were town (since if town, I killed an experienced player).
Can you imagine any potential...downsides...to blasting away experienced players via vig?
Obviously killing experienced players is detrimental to town, assuming they are town, but in the same breath,killing experienced scum players would be far better. I'm not suggesting offing players who've been here forever, but moreso players typically harder to read if nothing else is viable.
Preferably, we would lynch scum and vig the player most likely to be his scumbuddy (distancing) or if we mislynch, go after the scummiest player on his wagon.
But at this stage of the game, I'd consider shooting either of you just by experience and likelihood of me not being able to read you. But this game has no vig, so this is not a big issue. (Though, I'd say copping works similarly, without the drawback of being wrong and killing innocent people).
Serious buisness: I have heard that when you have an open set-up with a cop (bonus when there is no roleblocker), you are supposed to no-lynch day 1, to allow the cop a night to figure **** out. There are two problems with this plan in this particular set-up (1000 points to whoever can figure that out).
1. Cop only has a 1/6 chance of getting scum read. With godfather in play, we cannot really clear anyone with cop either.
2. No lynch lets scum dictate kills for N1 and N2 (assuming we dont get a successful read and are forced to NL at 6p 2s).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
Interesting start to the game thus far. With there only being 7 players having an RVS that occurred was dangerous. I've learned this from playing on MTGNews before it went down... for good....
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
As for TCM's thoughts on a No-Lynch have me wondering what he is looking at for answers, but I don't know what his answers are. The 7 player game I played over on MTGNews was called Cop Mafia or something similar. Basically everyone was a Cop Variant (EG: Insane vs Normal and all other types). However, TCM, I do have a question for you. Why are you trying to find a way to make this game easier based on speculation of the setup? It bothers me since there is minimal room for screwing up and trying to focus on a possible plan rather than analysis.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
Also, no-lynching is one of the dumbest things on the planet. We are not no-lynching.
It works in a model vacuum where all lynches and kills are at random, and no player interactions matter - but lynching helps us figure things out and analyse player interactions, making it much stronger than trading a cop check for a free kill for the mafia.
Also, there's no doc. And only one checkable scum.
And yeah.
No.
On an unrelated note, after reading through the posts, examining the role list and rules carefully, I've decided it's time for me to role claim.
I am town, and am either vanilla, or claiming vanilla so I don't get shot.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
What makes you say this? Do you think there's another reason he's asking such questions?
I was doing a simplistic observation of the posts since I didn't have much time when I posted then. If Azrael wants to correct me he is more than welcome too.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
What makes you say this? Do you think there's another reason he's asking such questions?
I was doing a simplistic observation of the posts since I didn't have much time when I posted then. If Azrael wants to correct me he is more than welcome too.
What do you see Azrael doing?
Probably getting a check on the mindset that SS and anyone who responded were coming from (scum/town). SS is probably the most novice of us here so he may be the most transparent, so if he acts hesitant in his initial questioning or maybe tipping his hand (so to speak), there can be an easy read to go on.
This may also be me putting too much stock into the motives of Azrael.
/barn Void and AE's questions to Voxx and also we are losing time by lack of posting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
I have a feeling that prerelease weekend is partially to blame for that.
/barn waiting on Voxx.
@Void, if a question is directed to me, I answer it to my fullest capabilities -- you know this, from Checks. If that still looks like overreacting to you, then oh well, I guess =/
@Azrael's questioning/@Shark -- I think that he's trying to access my mindset via getting me to talk about non-game specific matters, which makes sense in a way, because theoretically scum would "have their mental shields down," so to speak, if approached about a subject that is not the game at hand, which might allow for an easier read. Note that that's just my opinion, and for all I know, I might be ascribing him too much. He might just be genuinely curious for all I know.
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
@Void, if a question is directed to me, I answer it to my fullest capabilities -- you know this, from Checks. If that still looks like overreacting to you, then oh well, I guess =/
Emphasis mine.
Does an over explanatory post mean that someone has overreacted?
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
@Void, if a question is directed to me, I answer it to my fullest capabilities -- you know this, from Checks. If that still looks like overreacting to you, then oh well, I guess =/
Emphasis mine.
Does an over explanatory post mean that someone has overreacted?
For people not including myself, I would say yes. I fully recognize that most people that play Mafia do not respond the same way to stimuli that I do, and usually if I see someone posting in a similar way to myself, then I'm usually suspicious thereof.
@Azrael's questioning/@Shark -- I think that he's trying to access my mindset via getting me to talk about non-game specific matters, which makes sense in a way, because theoretically scum would "have their mental shields down," so to speak, if approached about a subject that is not the game at hand, which might allow for an easier read. Note that that's just my opinion, and for all I know, I might be ascribing him too much. He might just be genuinely curious for all I know.
I feel like Azreal was analyzing his responses, and his real interest was in answer number three.
I am waiting on Vox right now, but for the time being (until we get posts going), I will continue watching you very closely).
....****, half my post got choped. Sorry for that (I am going to ask atlseal, if he can merge my post, as to not edit my own post). This should be read before the post above this:
I hate this nested quote thing so much, I refuse to use it, unless absolutely warranted.
Quote from SF »
1. Cop only has a 1/6 chance of getting scum read. With godfather in play, we cannot really clear anyone with cop either.
2. No lynch lets scum dictate kills for N1 and N2 (assuming we dont get a successful read and are forced to NL at 6p 2s).
Yes and no.
The other reason I thought of (after a few hours from my last post) was that at an odd number, the town can't even mislynch once, without a scum victory (I also realized that it was the all cop open set-up where you no-lynch day 1).
Quote from Void »
Why are you trying to find a way to make this game easier based on speculation of the setup? It bothers me since there is minimal room for screwing up and trying to focus on a possible plan rather than analysis.
Right now, there is nothing to really analyze right now, except one post at a time. Give or take, half the posts right now are RVS.
As far as why I am trying to make the game easier? I see an open set-up as a day 1 mass-claim, but the scum don't know who has what role. The idea is: Is there any way the town can get an advantage from knowing this? After further analysis, I am afraid not. Every PR is essentially just a check. This game will be all about analyzing.
Quote from Vox »
On an unrelated note, after reading through the posts, examining the role list and rules carefully, I've decided it's time for me to role claim.
I am town, and am either vanilla, or claiming vanilla so I don't get shot.
I see nothing wrong with this.
Well, for starters. Now the mafia have a 25/33.3% chance of hitting the cop randomly on night kills (where 33.3 is assuming we mislynch a vanilla town player not named you).
What was your motivation for just outright claiming?
Not too sure on Voxx just yet. Most of it hinges on his responses to questions. I won't move my vote yet, mainly as there is no reason to switch just yet as we are now just barely getting out of RVS phase.
But Voxx's bold move of claiming right out is interesting from any of the possibilities (town vanilla, town PR, or scum). Given that is probably the move that is ending RVS, he appears town at this point.
@TCM: So what makes you think he is a VT and not a PR or scum?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
Not too sure on Voxx just yet. Most of it hinges on his responses to questions. I won't move my vote yet, mainly as there is no reason to switch just yet as we are now just barely getting out of RVS phase.
But Voxx's bold move of claiming right out is interesting from any of the possibilities (town vanilla, town PR, or scum). Given that is probably the move that is ending RVS, he appears town at this point.
I do not like he inconsistency here.
Vote: SharkFinnigan
Tell me, Shark, are you not sure on Vox's alignment or do you believe him to be town?
Not too sure on Voxx just yet. Most of it hinges on his responses to questions. I won't move my vote yet, mainly as there is no reason to switch just yet as we are now just barely getting out of RVS phase.
But Voxx's bold move of claiming right out is interesting from any of the possibilities (town vanilla, town PR, or scum). Given that is probably the move that is ending RVS, he appears town at this point.
I do not like he inconsistency here.
Vote: SharkFinnigan
Tell me, Shark, are you not sure on Vox's alignment or do you believe him to be town?
Hinging more on his responses, but at this point, I think he's town. Can't tell vanilla or PR though. Too much WIFOM to decide at this point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
Hinging more on his responses, but at this point, I think he's town. Can't tell vanilla or PR though. Too much WIFOM to decide at this point.
Youdon'tsay.jpg
Basically, both the vote on AE - which I actually still support as of this time! And the 'claim' were attempts to get us out of RVS. I don't think some people actually read what I typed. I claimed vanilla, or that I was saying I was vanilla to avoid getting shot as a power role. That's not actually claiming. That's just saying I'm in the game.
In a game this small, RVS will not accomplish much, and there's not much we can do to actually exit RVS unless we get ripped out of it kicking and screaming. I just had Real Life interfere and haven't been able to be around to follow up on things like I expected I'd be able to.
My vote on AE is because he has not even tried to progress the game forwards - with a certain kind of flippancy in RVS that ensures it /stays/ RVS. That's not the mindset that I expect town to be in in a 'serious' game of this size, with relatively strict deadlines for this site.
Voxx's point about AE is well-received, however, I think it's a little early to come to a vote-worthy opinion just based solely off of AE's desire for RVS.
I'd love to see more from Azrael, so I can get a better grasp on where he's coming from with his line of questioning -- unfortunately, he's been away for a few days.
@Shark: why does the player who ends RVS necessarily lend itself towards being town? (Referring to Voxx claiming)
I'm liking Void's play as reminiscent of Checks at this point. I don't like making pronouncements when we're scarcely 3 pages in, but I've liked what I've seen thusfar.
AE seems more aggressive than I remember him being previously -- but that might be because he's not trying to hide a cop role this game.
TCM I'm just watching in general, since I have no prior experience with him.
So...yeah. That's my thoughts at this point. I really hope this isn't going to turn into another Legendary Samurai -- that game was made miserable by the lack of posting, and since this game is going to be determined almost solely by analysis, this game would be made even worse therein. I'm starting to feel like I'm talking for the sake of talking, so I'm gonna go shut up now and wait for someone else to post :|
I'm here, I had friends over this weekend for infinite EDH happiness. Good times were had.
I certainly would never ask people random-ish questions to get a pulse on their behavior, mood, and emotions and kick-start conversation. I'm shocked that people would even consider that from me.
Quote from Azrael »
It sounds like what you actually meant was that clearly, you needed to say that you were town. And there seems to be quite a difference between those two ideas, hmm?
Silver, it'd be cool to have a response to this query.
Obviously killing experienced players is detrimental to town, assuming they are town, but in the same breath,killing experienced scum players would be far better. I'm not suggesting offing players who've been here forever, but moreso players typically harder to read if nothing else is viable.
Preferably, we would lynch scum and vig the player most likely to be his scumbuddy (distancing) or if we mislynch, go after the scummiest player on his wagon.
But at this stage of the game, I'd consider shooting either of you just by experience and likelihood of me not being able to read you. But this game has no vig, so this is not a big issue. (Though, I'd say copping works similarly, without the drawback of being wrong and killing innocent people).
I completely disagree with this philosophy, for the reasons that the value of experienced players is that they are better able to go on the offensive against said experienced scum, but we needn't argue over it now. I don't see any clear signs that indicate you don't actually honestly believe this.
Serious buisness: I have heard that when you have an open set-up with a cop (bonus when there is no roleblocker), you are supposed to no-lynch day 1, to allow the cop a night to figure **** out. There are two problems with this plan in this particular set-up (1000 points to whoever can figure that out).
7 - players
6 - players
4- players
Am I doing my math wrong, or does that not result in a scenario where we only get a single lynch before potentially losing the game? Plus the godfather.
Also, no-lynching is one of the dumbest things on the planet. We are not no-lynching.
It works in a model vacuum where all lynches and kills are at random, and no player interactions matter - but lynching helps us figure things out and analyse player interactions, making it much stronger than trading a cop check for a free kill for the mafia.
Also, there's no doc. And only one checkable scum.
And yeah.
No.
On an unrelated note, after reading through the posts, examining the role list and rules carefully, I've decided it's time for me to role claim.
I am town, and am either vanilla, or claiming vanilla so I don't get shot.
Interesting start to the game thus far. With there only being 7 players having an RVS that occurred was dangerous. I've learned this from playing on MTGNews before it went down... for good....
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
As for TCM's thoughts on a No-Lynch have me wondering what he is looking at for answers, but I don't know what his answers are. The 7 player game I played over on MTGNews was called Cop Mafia or something similar. Basically everyone was a Cop Variant (EG: Insane vs Normal and all other types). However, TCM, I do have a question for you. Why are you trying to find a way to make this game easier based on speculation of the setup? It bothers me since there is minimal room for screwing up and trying to focus on a possible plan rather than analysis.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
I'm here, I had friends over this weekend for infinite EDH happiness. Good times were had.
Quote from Azrael »
It sounds like what you actually meant was that clearly, you needed to say that you were town. And there seems to be quite a difference between those two ideas, hmm?
Silver, it'd be cool to have a response to this query.
Oops, sorry, didn't see this. I'm not entirely sure that I follow your question, so I'll back up and explain my response, and then hopefully you derive what you're looking for out of it.
My stated "clearly" response was meant as a slightly tongue-in-cheek reply to your prompt of, "Are you town." Nobody, town or scum, would state that they were scum in response to that line of questioning -- at least, I can't imagine a circumstance where one would do so. Ergo, by stating "clearly," my intent was to ... not so much mock, but more like ... give a slightly sarcastic "yes" reply. Sarcasm because, again, I can't see a possible world where saying "No, I'm not town," would be the correct play. This is all assuming truthfulness, of course -- I suppose if I replied "Not town," then you would probably assume that I'm stringing you along. I don't see an upside to that, though.
Likewise, I don't think that ignoring the question necessarily accomplishes anything good, either. Scum already know who's town or not, so they don't really care one way or the other -- except that if you ignore the question, they can point out that you're ignoring the question, which would make you an easier mislynch, as the town would naturally be suspicious.
As such, I feel that the only correct play is to provide an affirmative answer, with a hint of sarcasm to probe for a reaction from the questioner.
I've been in two games with Void so far. The first, Checks, he was town, and he played very, obnoxiously aggressively. The second, Legendary Samurai, had some serious activity problems, so it was kind of a bust -- but from what there was, he was scum, and he was playing more genially / laid-back. Two games does not a meta make, and I don't particularly like meta as an argument anyway.
BUT, from what I've seen so far, Void this game matches up more closely with town Void than scum Void. He's someone that I've got my eye on, but I'm not confidant enough to place a vote. Meta suggests town. Now, I need to temper that read with opinions from this individual game -- which is going to take time and more posts, I fear.
Interesting start to the game thus far. With there only being 7 players having an RVS that occurred was dangerous. I've learned this from playing on MTGNews before it went down... for good....
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
As for TCM's thoughts on a No-Lynch have me wondering what he is looking at for answers, but I don't know what his answers are. The 7 player game I played over on MTGNews was called Cop Mafia or something similar. Basically everyone was a Cop Variant (EG: Insane vs Normal and all other types). However, TCM, I do have a question for you. Why are you trying to find a way to make this game easier based on speculation of the setup? It bothers me since there is minimal room for screwing up and trying to focus on a possible plan rather than analysis.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
Quoted for reference.
The first paragraph confuses me, but I'm fairly sure it's just fluff to be dismissed. I think that he meant to say that it would have been dangerous to have an RVS, not that we had one -- or least, I hope so, since I wouldn't say we had an RVS of any significance.
Void riding my case is nothing particularly new, since he did it for something or other the entire way through Checks. I've since come to accept that we exist at opposite ends of the spectrum as mafia players, and I focus on not taking it personally / glossing over it and maintaining friendly relations. Note that I assumed that he meant that I was overreacting, whereas he (apparently) actually meant overexplanatory. I'm not sure exactly where he was planning on going with that, but he seems to have lost interest, so /shrug.
Cop Mafia bit seems non-sequitur, since he doesn't follow up on it at all.
Question for TCM seems fine, given that everyone seems to have missed the memo that this is an open setup. Speculating the setup is pointless, since we have the setup, so Void's question seems well-directed (assuming I am understanding it correctly).
Snipe at you seems perfectly at home with what I would expect of town Void -- he's making slightly offensive observations to elicit a reaction.
So, #23 seems a little more dazed than usual, but I'm not convinced that it's anything to be overtly concerned about. It's also entirely possible that I'm not following some of his lines of thought, since his posting style is always a little disjointed, and I might be missing something. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt on such things where possible....at least for a time or two. Then, if it persists, I'll look into it more seriously.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing; yet, at the very least.
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This game is near-flavorless, similar to Ged's Normal. To get us through the quiet winter, this is a 7-player game with an open setup.
============
TOWN
Cop (Each night, you may investigate one person by PMing the moderator. Your will receive the result of "town" or "mafia.")
Governor (Once per game when a player's lynch has been determined, you have 24 hours to PM the moderator that you want to overturn one lynch to either (a) stop the lynch, or (b) lynch a different person entirely.)
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
MAFIA
Godfather (You investigate as "town" instead of "mafia.")
Goon
============
Game Length
In an effort to keep the game moving smoothly, the league day timer is still in effect. The following deadlines are imposed:
Day1: 11 days
Day2: 8 days
Day3: 5 days
Day4: 5 days
If no lynch is reached by the end of that time period, the day will end in no-lynch and the Governor will not be able to use his/her power. Additionally, the mafia must kill at night. If no target is chosen, a target will be chosen at random.
============
Alive: (1/7)
1. The Cold Monarch, mafia goon, survived to endgame.
Dead:
1. Archmage Eternal, vanilla townie, lynched Day 1.
2. Void, town cop, killed Night 1.
3. Azrael, mafia godfather, lynched Day 2.
4. SharkFinnigan, town governor, killed Night 2.
5. SilverSihhe, vanilla townie, endgamed Day 3.
6. Voxxicus, vanilla townie, endgamed Day 3.
GAME STATUS: Game over. Mafia win.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
You have until February 3rd @ 10 PM EST to lynch.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why did Azrael make you join this game? Would you still be here even if he's not?
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Nah I mean Mafia in general. Some number of months ago, he hit me up when we were posting in CI and said that I should look into trying Mafia. So here I am. First time we've been in a game together, though, and I'm pretty sure that it's as good of a justification for an RVS vote as any
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Are you mafia this game?
What is your favorite color?
What are your most consistent scum tells?
Clearly not
By itself, silver. Ideally, though, I prefer a blend of black and silver with teal or red highlights.
Well, I haven't been scum yet, with two completed games now, and one ongoing. So, I really honestly couldn't tell you =/
How about you?
Also, I have no scum tells. Clearly. I am only ever caught by pure serendipity. That, and activity tells tend to be my bane, in later stages of the game. But I'm sure that this game, I'll be able to overcome that shortcoming though and fool everyone.
Are you familiar with everyone else in the game? I haven't played with Shark before, myself, or Vox, though I've seen his name bandied around a bit. Opinions on them?
Also, you never did say who you wanted me to vig tonight.
I think that two things are very clear: asking someone if they're town at the start of a game is meaningless aside from the reactions gauged therein. Town will say that they're town, and scum will say that they're town. As such, for what you're asking for, the depths of the clarity of my towniness is irrelevant. That's not what you're looking for.
I also think that it's very clear that you don't want to have an RVS, which saddens me, because RVS can be hysterical (even if, in my fledgling sense of mafia theory, I concede that it's a waste of time).
I've played with everyone in here except for you and Cold Monarch (is TCM acceptable?). Shark and I have a habit of thinking that the other is scum, every time we run into each other. Vox is a pretty swell guy, from the one time I've played with him.
Also, there still isn't a vig in this setup. Nor would I attempt to direct you if you were: both because directing power roles is unethical (it assumes that you do not respect the PR's intellect sufficiently to make their own decision), but also because somewhere along the way, I was introduced to the term Aezwolg, so I know that it wouldn't do any good anyway!
If you had the capacity to vig, I'd suggest you not vig, unless we lynch scum today (given 6p, 2s night, you shooting has a fairly likely chance of ending game before D2 if you miss and then scum kills another player)
If you could vig safely and were actually vig and you listened to my suggestions, I'd initially direct towards a player I have a null read on, as vigging them gives us the best chance to read players we cannot otherwise read (TCM or yourself are my short list).
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Safe place to start.
The Godfather.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
If you are scum like you were in Intrigue, I better start preaching now before it gets totally washed and you endgame.
(why did no one listen to me there??? ;_;)
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
I don't know, why didn't they?
Preach away my brother.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Archmage Eternal is scum.
also that winky face at the end is supposed to be ; ), as in ;_; )
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Archmage Eternal (1): SharkFinnigan
SharkFinnigan (1): The Cold Monarch
Azrael (1): SilverSihhe
Not Voting (4): Archmage Eternal, Azrael, Voxxicus, Void
With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
You have until February 3rd @ 10 PM EST to lynch.
True.
Not necessarily. Actually, there tends to be quite a degree of variance.
On the contrary, I think nothing be more relevant than whether it's clear that you're town, or scum. In this case, you said you're clearly town.
It sounds like what you actually meant was that clearly, you needed to say that you were town. And there seems to be quite a difference between those two ideas, hmm?
I don't mind having a RVS. I just think it should last for as long as it takes me to make my first post. So little time, so many scum to kill...
11 days real time isn't a lot to work with, and a 7-player setup only has a two-lynch margin of error. It's pretty easy for the scum to take out a 5-man town if they drag their heels.
Unethical, hmm, strong word.
I actually don't mind directing power roles one bit, after they're claimed. Group decisions tend to be better than individual decisions as a general rule, no matter your experience or intelligence, as the term Aezwolg has helpfully demonstrated.
Null read viggings, huh?
Why TCM and myself? Experience?
Can you imagine any potential...downsides...to blasting away experienced players via vig?
Serious buisness: I have heard that when you have an open set-up with a cop (bonus when there is no roleblocker), you are supposed to no-lynch day 1, to allow the cop a night to figure **** out. There are two problems with this plan in this particular set-up (1000 points to whoever can figure that out).
That being said, are there any recommendations? I have never played with an open setup before, and I am not sure if there is a strategy that we can use. The Godfather is a check to the cop, and the Governor prevents a speedlynch tomorrow, should we mislynch today.
Also, "TCM" is acceptable.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
TCM I've played with and you I've read a game you were in. Your playstyles lend themselves to be harder to read, so if there is not another viable target, I'd go for a player reading null that feels off by distancing. Example would be when I shot TCM in Gotham.
Apologies, I targetted you because of the playstyle and the fact you just seemed to pop in, comment on stuff, and leave for a while. It felt like you were trying to look town, but only barely be on anyone's scope.
And I was SK, so killing you really didn't hurt me at all even if you were town (since if town, I killed an experienced player).
Obviously killing experienced players is detrimental to town, assuming they are town, but in the same breath,killing experienced scum players would be far better. I'm not suggesting offing players who've been here forever, but moreso players typically harder to read if nothing else is viable.
Preferably, we would lynch scum and vig the player most likely to be his scumbuddy (distancing) or if we mislynch, go after the scummiest player on his wagon.
But at this stage of the game, I'd consider shooting either of you just by experience and likelihood of me not being able to read you. But this game has no vig, so this is not a big issue. (Though, I'd say copping works similarly, without the drawback of being wrong and killing innocent people).
1. Cop only has a 1/6 chance of getting scum read. With godfather in play, we cannot really clear anyone with cop either.
2. No lynch lets scum dictate kills for N1 and N2 (assuming we dont get a successful read and are forced to NL at 6p 2s).
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Silver's explanation post to Azrael appeared over explanatory from what I remember of his previous posts from Checks and Balances Mafia and from Legendary Samurai Mafia on MTGDarkness. In all fairness though Legendary Samurai Mafia was a bust of a game due to the activity problems and posting content was rather hard to do at times. I need to go back and look at Silver's post from C&B Mafia.
As for TCM's thoughts on a No-Lynch have me wondering what he is looking at for answers, but I don't know what his answers are. The 7 player game I played over on MTGNews was called Cop Mafia or something similar. Basically everyone was a Cop Variant (EG: Insane vs Normal and all other types). However, TCM, I do have a question for you. Why are you trying to find a way to make this game easier based on speculation of the setup? It bothers me since there is minimal room for screwing up and trying to focus on a possible plan rather than analysis.
Seems that Azrael is more focused on teaching or seeing if players know what they are talking about then finding scum.
What makes you say this? Do you think there's another reason he's asking such questions?
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
This is not a RVS vote.
Also, no-lynching is one of the dumbest things on the planet. We are not no-lynching.
It works in a model vacuum where all lynches and kills are at random, and no player interactions matter - but lynching helps us figure things out and analyse player interactions, making it much stronger than trading a cop check for a free kill for the mafia.
Also, there's no doc. And only one checkable scum.
And yeah.
No.
On an unrelated note, after reading through the posts, examining the role list and rules carefully, I've decided it's time for me to role claim.
I am town, and am either vanilla, or claiming vanilla so I don't get shot.
I see nothing wrong with this.
Vote: Archmage Eternal
I was doing a simplistic observation of the posts since I didn't have much time when I posted then. If Azrael wants to correct me he is more than welcome too.
What do you see Azrael doing?
Explain?
So you decided with your first post to claim? What a stretch it is at that. This helps how? By helping scum narrow down the player list?
Whats the issue of getting shot? I want to hear this from Voxx.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Probably getting a check on the mindset that SS and anyone who responded were coming from (scum/town). SS is probably the most novice of us here so he may be the most transparent, so if he acts hesitant in his initial questioning or maybe tipping his hand (so to speak), there can be an easy read to go on.
This may also be me putting too much stock into the motives of Azrael.
/barn Void and AE's questions to Voxx and also we are losing time by lack of posting.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
/barn waiting on Voxx.
@Void, if a question is directed to me, I answer it to my fullest capabilities -- you know this, from Checks. If that still looks like overreacting to you, then oh well, I guess =/
@Azrael's questioning/@Shark -- I think that he's trying to access my mindset via getting me to talk about non-game specific matters, which makes sense in a way, because theoretically scum would "have their mental shields down," so to speak, if approached about a subject that is not the game at hand, which might allow for an easier read. Note that that's just my opinion, and for all I know, I might be ascribing him too much. He might just be genuinely curious for all I know.
Emphasis mine.
Does an over explanatory post mean that someone has overreacted?
For people not including myself, I would say yes. I fully recognize that most people that play Mafia do not respond the same way to stimuli that I do, and usually if I see someone posting in a similar way to myself, then I'm usually suspicious thereof.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I feel like Azreal was analyzing his responses, and his real interest was in answer number three.
I am waiting on Vox right now, but for the time being (until we get posts going), I will continue watching you very closely).
....****, half my post got choped. Sorry for that (I am going to ask atlseal, if he can merge my post, as to not edit my own post). This should be read before the post above this:
I hate this nested quote thing so much, I refuse to use it, unless absolutely warranted.
Yes and no.
The other reason I thought of (after a few hours from my last post) was that at an odd number, the town can't even mislynch once, without a scum victory (I also realized that it was the all cop open set-up where you no-lynch day 1).
Right now, there is nothing to really analyze right now, except one post at a time. Give or take, half the posts right now are RVS.
As far as why I am trying to make the game easier? I see an open set-up as a day 1 mass-claim, but the scum don't know who has what role. The idea is: Is there any way the town can get an advantage from knowing this? After further analysis, I am afraid not. Every PR is essentially just a check. This game will be all about analyzing.
Well, for starters. Now the mafia have a 25/33.3% chance of hitting the cop randomly on night kills (where 33.3 is assuming we mislynch a vanilla town player not named you).
What was your motivation for just outright claiming?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Are you keeping your vote where it is?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Not too sure on Voxx just yet. Most of it hinges on his responses to questions. I won't move my vote yet, mainly as there is no reason to switch just yet as we are now just barely getting out of RVS phase.
But Voxx's bold move of claiming right out is interesting from any of the possibilities (town vanilla, town PR, or scum). Given that is probably the move that is ending RVS, he appears town at this point.
@TCM: So what makes you think he is a VT and not a PR or scum?
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
I do not like he inconsistency here.
Vote: SharkFinnigan
Tell me, Shark, are you not sure on Vox's alignment or do you believe him to be town?
Hinging more on his responses, but at this point, I think he's town. Can't tell vanilla or PR though. Too much WIFOM to decide at this point.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Youdon'tsay.jpg
Basically, both the vote on AE - which I actually still support as of this time! And the 'claim' were attempts to get us out of RVS. I don't think some people actually read what I typed. I claimed vanilla, or that I was saying I was vanilla to avoid getting shot as a power role. That's not actually claiming. That's just saying I'm in the game.
In a game this small, RVS will not accomplish much, and there's not much we can do to actually exit RVS unless we get ripped out of it kicking and screaming. I just had Real Life interfere and haven't been able to be around to follow up on things like I expected I'd be able to.
My vote on AE is because he has not even tried to progress the game forwards - with a certain kind of flippancy in RVS that ensures it /stays/ RVS. That's not the mindset that I expect town to be in in a 'serious' game of this size, with relatively strict deadlines for this site.
Archmage Eternal (2): SharkFinnigan, Voxxicus
SharkFinnigan (2): The Cold Monarch, Void
Azrael (1): SilverSihhe
Not Voting (2): Archmage Eternal, Azrael
With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
You have until February 3rd @ 10 PM EST to lynch.
Azrael has until 6 PM EST to post content or he will be replaced.
Voxx's point about AE is well-received, however, I think it's a little early to come to a vote-worthy opinion just based solely off of AE's desire for RVS.
I'd love to see more from Azrael, so I can get a better grasp on where he's coming from with his line of questioning -- unfortunately, he's been away for a few days.
@Shark: why does the player who ends RVS necessarily lend itself towards being town? (Referring to Voxx claiming)
I'm liking Void's play as reminiscent of Checks at this point. I don't like making pronouncements when we're scarcely 3 pages in, but I've liked what I've seen thusfar.
AE seems more aggressive than I remember him being previously -- but that might be because he's not trying to hide a cop role this game.
TCM I'm just watching in general, since I have no prior experience with him.
So...yeah. That's my thoughts at this point. I really hope this isn't going to turn into another Legendary Samurai -- that game was made miserable by the lack of posting, and since this game is going to be determined almost solely by analysis, this game would be made even worse therein. I'm starting to feel like I'm talking for the sake of talking, so I'm gonna go shut up now and wait for someone else to post :|
Also, SS is prob town for his post. Voxx is now prob town.
Everyone else is null at this juncture. Though through PoE, 2 of remaining 3 are scum.
Reasoning to come when I have another second
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
I certainly would never ask people random-ish questions to get a pulse on their behavior, mood, and emotions and kick-start conversation. I'm shocked that people would even consider that from me.
Silver, it'd be cool to have a response to this query.
I completely disagree with this philosophy, for the reasons that the value of experienced players is that they are better able to go on the offensive against said experienced scum, but we needn't argue over it now. I don't see any clear signs that indicate you don't actually honestly believe this.
7 - players
6 - players
4- players
Am I doing my math wrong, or does that not result in a scenario where we only get a single lynch before potentially losing the game? Plus the godfather.
*head scratch*
Fascinating...I think townish?
Yeah. Town. Silly, but definitely town.
Vote Void.
One down. Who's your buddy?
Oops, sorry, didn't see this. I'm not entirely sure that I follow your question, so I'll back up and explain my response, and then hopefully you derive what you're looking for out of it.
My stated "clearly" response was meant as a slightly tongue-in-cheek reply to your prompt of, "Are you town." Nobody, town or scum, would state that they were scum in response to that line of questioning -- at least, I can't imagine a circumstance where one would do so. Ergo, by stating "clearly," my intent was to ... not so much mock, but more like ... give a slightly sarcastic "yes" reply. Sarcasm because, again, I can't see a possible world where saying "No, I'm not town," would be the correct play. This is all assuming truthfulness, of course -- I suppose if I replied "Not town," then you would probably assume that I'm stringing you along. I don't see an upside to that, though.
Likewise, I don't think that ignoring the question necessarily accomplishes anything good, either. Scum already know who's town or not, so they don't really care one way or the other -- except that if you ignore the question, they can point out that you're ignoring the question, which would make you an easier mislynch, as the town would naturally be suspicious.
As such, I feel that the only correct play is to provide an affirmative answer, with a hint of sarcasm to probe for a reaction from the questioner.
Make sense?
I've been in two games with Void so far. The first, Checks, he was town, and he played very, obnoxiously aggressively. The second, Legendary Samurai, had some serious activity problems, so it was kind of a bust -- but from what there was, he was scum, and he was playing more genially / laid-back. Two games does not a meta make, and I don't particularly like meta as an argument anyway.
BUT, from what I've seen so far, Void this game matches up more closely with town Void than scum Void. He's someone that I've got my eye on, but I'm not confidant enough to place a vote. Meta suggests town. Now, I need to temper that read with opinions from this individual game -- which is going to take time and more posts, I fear.
Quoted for reference.
The first paragraph confuses me, but I'm fairly sure it's just fluff to be dismissed. I think that he meant to say that it would have been dangerous to have an RVS, not that we had one -- or least, I hope so, since I wouldn't say we had an RVS of any significance.
Void riding my case is nothing particularly new, since he did it for something or other the entire way through Checks. I've since come to accept that we exist at opposite ends of the spectrum as mafia players, and I focus on not taking it personally / glossing over it and maintaining friendly relations. Note that I assumed that he meant that I was overreacting, whereas he (apparently) actually meant overexplanatory. I'm not sure exactly where he was planning on going with that, but he seems to have lost interest, so /shrug.
Cop Mafia bit seems non-sequitur, since he doesn't follow up on it at all.
Question for TCM seems fine, given that everyone seems to have missed the memo that this is an open setup. Speculating the setup is pointless, since we have the setup, so Void's question seems well-directed (assuming I am understanding it correctly).
Snipe at you seems perfectly at home with what I would expect of town Void -- he's making slightly offensive observations to elicit a reaction.
So, #23 seems a little more dazed than usual, but I'm not convinced that it's anything to be overtly concerned about. It's also entirely possible that I'm not following some of his lines of thought, since his posting style is always a little disjointed, and I might be missing something. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt on such things where possible....at least for a time or two. Then, if it persists, I'll look into it more seriously.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing; yet, at the very least.