I knew it was fake. The entire context of it was RVS. Did Vishamon know this? Doubtful.
If you want to look at that simply then sure. But it's more to than just that. Vishamon voted for you for your Day Kill attempt despite how obviously fake it was. It was a horrid vote.
I was placing an RVS vote in response to an RVS post. As you pointed out yourself in your read-through, this is supported by the fact that I then referenced planeswalker points.
Seriously Iso? I don't remember you being like that in that game you caught fluffy in a post or two because of his sig. The guy IMPLODED on minimal pressure, he was also caught lying about his innumerable games where vanilla scum replace out. On top of it all he also voted on himself, I don't even remember a game where town vote for himself.
Yeah unfortunately I remember, I still have nightmares about your play that game.
Bolding is mine.
These posts were mad 15 minutes apart. Why lie about something so little? Especially when town voting for him/herself happens so frequently? (At least it did when I last paid attention to this forum. Things may have changed.)
Also, to answer my own question; I don't know the exact number of games I've played, but I have been sporadically playing since Newb 7, or somewhere around there.
GR used a FOS instead of a Vote while his Vote was not tied up anywhere and the person in question was not in danger of being hammered. This is a scum tell.
Hmm... this keeps coming up. I have little mafia experience, but in the one game I have finished (and even the one I left ongoing), voting was kind of a big deal. After RVS, a vote, even if not tied up, was considered a serious thing, so FoS was used plenty, and just voting out of nowhere, like Allwin did, was considered really scummy. I guess I have much to learn about this game and the meta here.
I was placing an RVS vote in response to an RVS post. As you pointed out yourself in your read-through, this is supported by the fact that I then referenced planeswalker points.
^^ There seems to be something missing there.
How is one to know the difference between a RVS vote and a serious vote when you gave a naked vote?
How is one to know the difference between a RVS vote and a serious vote when you gave a naked vote?
Indeed, you'll have to take it on faith that I was simply "playing along" with RVS, and did not place a serious vote because of a fake daykill during RVS.
Why isn't the scum lynched yet? Come on guys, he has simply shut down after all. He's probably consulting with his clan or buddies if they have daytalk.
@Allin please say something, how about a town/scum list for us? It certainly can help...
@someone I was not being condescending or something like that, I'm totally serious when I said I was sorry for the guy.
Also Vishamon is probably town.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
[/color="teal"]
OOC:
Sorry for my abscence last night and the answers that you all desire to hear i woll post tonight. Relatives came into town and I wasn't able to get on. I am done work in about 2 hours and will post answers tonight after reading through the posts I missed.
[/color]
These posts were mad 15 minutes apart. Why lie about something so little? Especially when town voting for him/herself happens so frequently? (At least it did when I last paid attention to this forum. Things may have changed.)
This question is so bad it hurts, in fact it's mindblowing you are asking this. I'm gonna use an example so you may understand better.
Adam: Man, last night movie was soooo bad, I've seriously never saw a movie as bad as that one.
Nadine: What about *insert real bad movie here* from last year? Wasn't it worse?
Adam: Maaan, you are so right, comparing last night movie with this one makes yesterday movie seem like an oscar winner one! I still have nightmares about that one.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@void I look bad for pointing out dreys vote on shalako as bad? It was a horrible vote and I can't even believe Allwin actually posted a vote for shalako after it. It may have caught scum but It still is a bad vote even for reactions. He voted for someone simply for replacing out what reaction did he expect? Certainly not all win to out himself as scum.
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Because newb town comes in and votes the last person voted (which was a ba vote in the first place) and then crumbles under 2 votes right? Oh wait THAT'S NEWB SCUM.
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As I stated earlier, I think his "train of thought" style posting is much more characteristic of a noob town "hey I know I'm town why would anyone think otherwise" attitude than noob scum "omg I don't want to do anything scummy... does this sound scummy? Let me make sure this doesn't sound scummy before I post it." attitude.
I have not played any games on this site and only played a few on another site. For clarity on the matter the other games I played were about 4-5 years ago. Of these games I can only remember 5 games in some detail but I know that I played in others, which is why I posted <20. It was not an attempt to withhold information from everyone, I just gave an estimate because I do not know the exact number.
At the time of placing my vote I had a possible town read on DReY from this post:
I hope you realize that by "testing" that role you remove from town a day of discussion and gives scum one free NK.
I see no reason to distrust such a crazy claim, meaning I don't want to test it never because we will lose a potential lynch
This was not by any means a definitive read but from my original look over the thread up to this point I placed DReY as potential town.
As for following his vote, that as we all have figured out was a barn vote which to some is a scum tell, but in all reality that vote made as much sense to me as me randomly picking anyone else. Both options would of been viewed as scumtells. So I put my vote with the person who I believed to be potential scum from what I have read so far.
For self voting myself it was not meant to help it was a sarcastic vote because people were switching to voting me based off of an overreaction (newb move) and then overexaggeration of what I posted and coulndt support with hard links (newb move). So this was not a serious vote by any means.
To answer what DReY asked here is how I currently see people:
Town:
Iso
Void
AI (very aggressive scum hunter though, which sometimes could be scum like)
Vishamon
Scum:
DReY (very aggressive to get first lynch done and out of the way without making sure it is the best choice for town)
GR (votes seem to follow others without a strong sense of independent reasoning)
Ones I am still not completely sure of enough to place them on a side:
Kill-joy (just not enough posts for me to read yet)
Digi (again just not enough content to read yet)
TheEndisNear(same as above)
Wheat Grinder, Tordeck, Cyouni, SXe, Reya, Drifting I am still keeping an open mind about, while they have posted content that has me leaning one way or another none of it has been concrete enough for me to place them but I do have my ideas for thier alignment.
The vote count is wrong from what I can see, in post #193 Iso changed his vote from me to Vish. I request a recount please
VOTE DRey
I am voting for DReY because from when he gave a hard push against me for making a bad judgement I felt it was very scumlike. While my vote and overreaction to my wagon are viewed as a scumtell to some, for him it seemed enough to convict and lynch on before we even had heard from all the players. This shows to me that he has no concern with who the best lynch would be and is just trying to lynch the first non-scum that he had a point he could work with. He is tunneling on me and my post no longer matter for his decision. Also I have noticed that DReY has been dodging questions, the most recent being post #203 and multiple questions put forth by Void in post #197. Rather then answering the questions presented to him he again brought up the idea that I should be lynched quickly and deflected the conversation from these questions.
I do not believe that n00b scum are going to necessarily play in the way you describe, Reya. Some will try to hop on bandwagons, but I would feel that n00b scum are going to be very cautious and in general, saying as little as possible - if anything you say might be read as a scum tell, then saying nothing at all means you're not giving any scum tells, right?
At least, that's my viewpoint on the matter. In any case, I'm still reserving judgement on Allwin, though his actions do not look favorable. I will at least wait until he provides an explanation for his actions (post 212 promises as much this evening).
sXe's vote on DRey is really not looking good to me. It's based solely on DRey's having an imperfect recollection until being primed. It could possibly, if you look at it just right, be seen as maybe a suggestion of Iso / DRey on team scum, but the hoops you have to jump through to see it this way suggest that the evidence does not support this. DRey's vote and harping of the town "Why isn't the scum lynched yet...?" (post 211) has me suspicious that he's trying to push for a mislynch. This overly aggressive behavior does not sit well with me, but sXe's reasoning is so bad for his vote that I can't simply overlook it.
Unvote DRey, Vote sXe, Retain FoS: DRey.
Iso's post (193) raises some suspicions of me that I'm going to address now:
Looking back, apparently this post wasn't as bad as I initially thought at first glance - but there are still some things that stand out to me:
Bolded and underlined mine. The reason this stuck out to me so strongly is because he's using the words "initial suspicions", as though to hint that he believes it's worth considering scummy, but then he goes and says it's null and that he can't tell if Allwin is scum or town. I wouldn't say it's contradictory, because context is relevant, but the mindset doesn't bode well with me. Basically, I don't understand why he would use a strong word like "suspicion" in a game like Mafia where suspicion generally connotates (Firefox doesn't recognize connotates? Really?) that there is something to be, in fact, suspicious of. Maybe just poor phrasing, but it caught my eye.
Perhaps "reaction" would have been a better word to use in this context? I meant that line in the context of "The first thing that crossed my mind when I read his posts was..."
Quote from Iso »
I have no idea what (or who, rather) the part outside of the quotes is referring to. Not saying this is a point against him, I would just like it to be clarified so I can better understand this post.
I have no one person in particular for the first half about anyone slipping up on sufficient pressure - this is rather a general assessment across all interrogations (both in games of Mafia and in real life police interrogations) - eventually, anyone is going to get tired of answering pointed questions over and over again. "said person" in this context is referring to Allwin here - I don't think Allwin is necessarily a boon to the town and has made a lot of slipups, but I don't believe that he is definitively scum, just n00b.
Quote from Iso »
Since when is condescension a scumtell? While I agree with your assessment of DRey at this point, my experience with him is telling me that, once again, he's town and really just digging himself into a hole like he always does.
Not necessarily the condescension as a scum tell itself, but his (DRey's) mindset of "we got him, let's wrap this up and go home" that is being conveyed here suggests that he's interested in either closing out discussion before the town can gather more information, or he's pushing for a mislynch. In either case, the aggressive mentality suggests to me, as a person who's never played with him, or you, for that matter, scum. The second half of this statement is meta information, and I don't have the meta-knowledge on which to base this decision.
Quote from Iso »
Legit, but again, DRey.
Again, meta.
Quote from Iso »
Do you think DRey's alignment is indicative of Allwin's in any way?
I think that Drey and Allwin are not both scum (one or the other or neither, but not both). Given DRey's aggressiveness is putting a lot of suspicion on him and Allwin both, it just doesn't make sense to me that scum DRey would push scum Allwin so hard in such a nonchalant way, since it seems like a great way to get both of them lynched or shot by some town PR. Meanwhile, scum DRey has a good reason to push for the mislynch of Allwin, taking advantage of the latter's less-than-optimal performance, to put it lightly. Town DRey is going to push hard for someone he believes to be scum, and that's true regardless of Allwin's true alignment. So, I think at most one of the two is scum, but they're both suspicious right now (along with sXe, who I've elaborated on above).
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This line in particular weighs very heavily against Allwin:
Quote from Allwin (220) »
For self voting myself it was not meant to help it was a sarcastic vote
This really stands out to me, because it does suggest that either Allwin is not taking this seriously, or he's actively trying to hurt the town (and the logical conclusion to this is that he is scum).
However, his point against DRey is also in line with my suspicions - there is a good deal of deflection by DRey, and I don't think Allwin's assessment that DRey is tunneling is completely invalid - his most recent posts (211 and 214) suggest that he's pushing on Allwin to deflect pressure off himself.
Though I do need to look at the last line of 211 - Why does DRey go out of his way to say: "Also, Vishamon is probably town"? This says to me "I know something you don't, and I'm not going to explain my reasoning." This is not a scum tell in the sense that only the scum would say something like this - there could be masons, lovers, etc. in this game, but it certainly tips the odds in favor of his being scum, and I retain my suspicion on him. Having said this, sXe's vote on DRey is so horrid that I maintain my vote on him.
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This question is so bad it hurts, in fact it's mindblowing you are asking this. I'm gonna use an example so you may understand better.
I'd be on you for this specifically in a second if you weren't DRey. Luckily there's other tells to be found here.
Adam: Man, last night movie was soooo bad, I've seriously never saw a movie as bad as that one.
Nadine: What about *insert real bad movie here* from last year? Wasn't it worse?
Adam: Maaan, you are so right, comparing last night movie with this one makes yesterday movie seem like an oscar winner one! I still have nightmares about that one.
"Oh no I didn't really mean that I was just exaggerating." That's a really neat way to back off from slips. Just handwave them away.
Because newb town comes in and votes the last person voted (which was a ba vote in the first place) and then crumbles under 2 votes right? Oh wait THAT'S NEWB SCUM.
I swear I've done this as noob town. And as non-noob town. Actually I remember doing this as recently as Republican Candidates Mafia, where I was town.
For self voting myself it was not meant to help it was a sarcastic vote because people were switching to voting me based off of an overreaction (newb move) and then overexaggeration of what I posted and coulndt support with hard links (newb move). So this was not a serious vote by any means.
Not a fan of that. You're trying to play the noob card for all its worth.
I'm not really sure what I feel on you anymore. There's a good portion of your wagon that feels off, indicating you might be town, and yet you post stuff like this.
[quote]Wheat Grinder, Tordeck, Cyouni, SXe, Reya, Drifting I am still keeping an open mind about, while they have posted content that has me leaning one way or another none of it has been concrete enough for me to place them but I do have my ideas for thier alignment.
Which way are you leaning on all of these? Use leaning town and leaning scum to describe it. Also reasoning would be lovely.
to clarify that wording, the vote was not meant to help myself. I didnt mean that it wasnt meant to help the town. This response was in reference to Viod's questoins in post 197 to me asking if I believe I would benefit from makin this move.
As requested:
Wheat_Grinder, Drifting Skies: I am leaning towards town on you two and currently for very similar reasons. You are both posting and actively trying to scumhunt and find the best lynch possible for day 1. So currently I believe you could be town but I am not sold on your alignment as of yet.
Drifting Skies even though you have only posted 8 times I feel more confindent in my choice of alignment at this time because your posts have good content and arent just naming a vote with 1-2 lines of reasoning.
The last few players are only slightly leaning towards these sides and I havent made a more confident read on them because there just isnt enough posts yet for me to decide where they align.
Reya (10 posts)
currently leaning towards scum here. Very aggressive along the same lines as DReY and seems to follow votes of others using the same reasoning just reworded.
Tordeck (9 posts)
leaning town, havent had anything to show otherwise as of yet
sXe (6 posts)
leaning scum
Because he has put forth some votes without reasoning attached when it by this point is pretty obvious that you will just be asked for it after you vote, so why not include it with your vote?
Cyouni (5 posts)
leaning town, havent had anything to show otherwise as of yet
sXe's vote on DRey is really not looking good to me. It's based solely on DRey's having an imperfect recollection until being primed. It could possibly, if you look at it just right, be seen as maybe a suggestion of Iso / DRey on team scum, but the hoops you have to jump through to see it this way suggest that the evidence does not support this.
Bolding added by me.
I'm really not liking how you are putting words in my mouth. To take an unexplained vote on a single person, and come up with a scenario in which the voter is trying to link two people in a scum team? Naughty boy.
sXe (6 posts)
leaning scum
Because he has put forth some votes without reasoning attached when it by this point is pretty obvious that you will just be asked for it after you vote, so why not include it with your vote?
Some votes mean more than one, correct? I voted for DRey; who were my other votes on?
I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine. If you fell me voting with no attached reason is bad, then why wasn't DRey's?
I thought I read another vote but upon review I see only one. My apologies to you for that miscounting. To answer your question, I feel the same way about DReY for his voting but I felt that the reasons I stated in an earlier post held more weight in why I believe he is scum than his voting without reason.
As Allwin continues to provide content of quality, I'm feeling pretty vindicated in my unclear - leaning town - town read progression of him. I'm even more suspicious now of DRey's heavy psh for a quick lynch on him. Seems to go with the scum mentality of wanting to go to night as quickly as possible before town can get a good feel of what's going on. Especially in his post #211, where he expresses dismay that a lynch had not occured yet - barely 200 posts into Day 1!
sXe's vote on DRey is really not looking good to me. It's based solely on DRey's having an imperfect recollection until being primed. It could possibly, if you look at it just right, be seen as maybe a suggestion of Iso / DRey on team scum, but the hoops you have to jump through to see it this way suggest that the evidence does not support this. DRey's vote and harping of the town "Why isn't the scum lynched yet...?" (post 211) has me suspicious that he's trying to push for a mislynch. This overly aggressive behavior does not sit well with me, but sXe's reasoning is so bad for his vote that I can't simply overlook it.
Why isn't the scum lynched yet? Come on guys, he has simply shut down after all. He's probably consulting with his clan or buddies if they have daytalk.
@Allin please say something, how about a town/scum list for us? It certainly can help...
@someone I was not being condescending or something like that, I'm totally serious when I said I was sorry for the guy.
Also Vishamon is probably town.
DRy's reasoning is both faulty and scummy.
However, that has no real bearing on his alignment.
The comment about daytalk is interesting, though, because he's the first to mention something like that.
DRy's reasoning is both faulty and scummy.
However, that has no real bearing on his alignment.
You say that DRey's reasoning is both faulty and scummy but it doesn't have bearing on alignment. Could you expand further on why you feel it doesn't have a connection?
You say that DRey's reasoning is both faulty and scummy but it doesn't have bearing on alignment. Could you expand further on why you feel it doesn't have a connection?
Cyouni is saying that he thinks DRey is a bad Mafia player. I give DRey a little more credit than that. The "y no lynch" comment solidifies it for me, as well.
Thanks for expounding on your T/S list; I was just about to ask the same of you.
Unvote
Vote DRey
I'm really not liking how you are putting words in my mouth. To take an unexplained vote on a single person, and come up with a scenario in which the voter is trying to link two people in a scum team? Naughty boy.
I'm trying to figure out the reasoning for your unexplained vote, which looks really bad to me. By your own estimation, you've failed to explain your vote thus far, and I would like to know the reasoning behind it. I agree with the choice of vote, but your reasoning (or rather, lack thereof) thus far has me very suspicious.
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Request Vote Count
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I'm trying to figure out the reasoning for your unexplained vote, which looks really bad to me. By your own estimation, you've failed to explain your vote thus far, and I would like to know the reasoning behind it. I agree with the choice of vote, but your reasoning (or rather, lack thereof) thus far has me very suspicious.
Mostly because of post 211. I also didn't like how he answered my question/has been interacting with people. He seems more interested in trying to bully people to do what he says rather than actually scumhunt/play the game. Last time I played with him, he was town, and he felt scummy, but he wasn't being a bully that game either.
Basically, DRey always appears scummy, but with post 211 in addition to how he's interacting this game, he has convinced me he's scum.
Mostly because of post 211. I also didn't like how he answered my question/has been interacting with people. He seems more interested in trying to bully people to do what he says rather than actually scumhunt/play the game. Last time I played with him, he was town, and he felt scummy, but he wasn't being a bully that game either.
Basically, DRey always appears scummy, but with post 211 in addition to how he's interacting this game, he has convinced me he's scum.
I wasn't disputing your vote, but your reasoning previously was lacking. Thanks for clearing this up:
Unvote: sXe
@The End is Near: I would request your analysis at this time. You've been lurking and lacking in the posts-of-content department. I would hear your thoughts on the game up to this point.
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To be honest. This is my first mafia game and I never realised how in depth everything was pulled. I am reading this and doing the same way I do things in real life. Take people's opinion, and decide what I believe and what I don't. I don't even think I remember all the members. Iso, AI, allwin, DRey, Drifting Skies, Me, Tordeck, G_R are the ones that come to mind atm.
So about what I think about you guys? Well I'm not quite sure. One thing I find odd is that noone just goes "I AM TOWN" as a big sign. If you are a townie it's like sacrificing yourself for the greater good. It doesn't say anything about you as scum might try to pass as town doing that, but going by people's reaction to that (actually maybe not, cause they'll expect a scum to maybe try 50% of the time) you know what nvm. Stupid idea. I'll keep it here cause I'm quite interested by what people can analyse by little text. I kinda feel like trying to analyse myself. Being so honnest makes me look town. Being made to look town makes me look scum. Town gets nothing from being looked at as scum except for (tbh, the rules kinda confuse me a bit) not being nightkilled by the scum (I think I read somewhere they can vote and nightkill someone every night) actully thats exacly why noone would go "IM TOWN".
This is confusing. I'll leave it as that.
Lets see what goes on now, I'm guessing all the attention will fall on me like it did Allwin earlier.
(I don't quite like The End is Near, if you don't mind TEIN is cooler ;P)
Indeed, you'll have to take it on faith that I was simply "playing along" with RVS, and did not place a serious vote because of a fake daykill during RVS.
@void I look bad for pointing out dreys vote on shalako as bad? It was a horrible vote and I can't even believe Allwin actually posted a vote for shalako after it. It may have caught scum but It still is a bad vote even for reactions. He voted for someone simply for replacing out what reaction did he expect? Certainly not all win to out himself as scum.
At the time of placing my vote I had a possible town read on DReY from this post:
This was not by any means a definitive read but from my original look over the thread up to this point I placed DReY as potential town.
Town:
Iso
Void
AI (very aggressive scum hunter though, which sometimes could be scum like)
Vishamon
Scum: DReY (very aggressive to get first lynch done and out of the way without making sure it is the best choice for town)
GR (votes seem to follow others without a strong sense of independent reasoning)
Ones I am still not completely sure of enough to place them on a side:
Kill-joy (just not enough posts for me to read yet)
Digi (again just not enough content to read yet)
TheEndisNear(same as above)
Possible and potential Town read on DRey just to stick him in scum category.
Please elaborate.
Not liking how specific players have comments attached. Going to keep an eye on those players.
VOTE DRey
I am voting for DReY because from when he gave a hard push against me for making a bad judgement I felt it was very scumlike. While my vote and overreaction to my wagon are viewed as a scumtell to some, for him it seemed enough to convict and lynch on before we even had heard from all the players. This shows to me that he has no concern with who the best lynch would be and is just trying to lynch the first non-scum that he had a point he could work with. He is tunneling on me and my post no longer matter for his decision. Also I have noticed that DReY has been dodging questions, the most recent being post #203 and multiple questions put forth by Void in post #197. Rather then answering the questions presented to him he again brought up the idea that I should be lynched quickly and deflected the conversation from these questions.
Are you saying scum is incapable of doing what DRey did?
Do you believe DRey missed the question on purpose or accidentally missed them? Please give some support with your answer.
So about what I think about you guys? Well I'm not quite sure. One thing I find odd is that noone just goes "I AM TOWN" as a big sign. If you are a townie it's like sacrificing yourself for the greater good. It doesn't say anything about you as scum might try to pass as town doing that, but going by people's reaction to that (actually maybe not, cause they'll expect a scum to maybe try 50% of the time) you know what nvm. Stupid idea. I'll keep it here cause I'm quite interested by what people can analyse by little text. I kinda feel like trying to analyse myself. Being so honnest makes me look town. Being made to look town makes me look scum. Town gets nothing from being looked at as scum except for (tbh, the rules kinda confuse me a bit) not being nightkilled by the scum (I think I read somewhere they can vote and nightkill someone every night) actully thats exacly why noone would go "IM TOWN".
If it was as easy as shouting you were town everyone would do it.
The way to determine alignment is through motivation; try to figure out whether scum or town would say a certain statement, or phrase things a certain way. Do it enough over the course of a game and bam you've got an idea of which alignment someone is.
I swear I remember dRey voting shalako maybe I just thought he did in his lynch shalako post.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
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I swear I remember dRey voting shalako maybe I just thought he did in his lynch shalako post.
This is why your vote on DRey was bad IMO.
DRey was doing that for reactions. I've seen DRey try to push that enevlope too many times in the past and have seen it blow up in his face because of the person flipping town.
Yes, yes you are. Anyone who would doubt this at this point needs to reread this post until all doubt is erased.
Considering Wheat_Grinder's (good) advice regarding reading into a player's motivations in order to determine whether that player is town or scum, are there any players whose motivations (or words in general) do not seem to line up with their actions (specifically, votes or other calls for a lynch)?
Yes, yes you are. Anyone who would doubt this at this point needs to reread this post until all doubt is erased.
Considering Wheat_Grinder's (good) advice regarding reading into a player's motivations in order to determine whether that player is town or scum, are there any players whose motivations (or words in general) do not seem to line up with their actions (specifically, votes or other calls for a lynch)?
Thank you for your contribution.
Are there any players who you think may be scum?
That seems as baseless as going "you are scum" and anyone who doesn't get it needs to retread what I wrote until they see it. May I see your line of thought?
DRey was doing that for reactions. I've seen DRey try to push that enevlope too many times in the past and have seen it blow up in his face because of the person flipping town.
I didn't vote him? I'm not pushing Drey atm?
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I was placing an RVS vote in response to an RVS post. As you pointed out yourself in your read-through, this is supported by the fact that I then referenced planeswalker points.
Bolding is mine.
These posts were mad 15 minutes apart. Why lie about something so little? Especially when town voting for him/herself happens so frequently? (At least it did when I last paid attention to this forum. Things may have changed.)
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that's because the word you're looking for is connotes
Official Straight Edge Member of the Called
Hmm... this keeps coming up. I have little mafia experience, but in the one game I have finished (and even the one I left ongoing), voting was kind of a big deal. After RVS, a vote, even if not tied up, was considered a serious thing, so FoS was used plenty, and just voting out of nowhere, like Allwin did, was considered really scummy. I guess I have much to learn about this game and the meta here.
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^^ There seems to be something missing there.
How is one to know the difference between a RVS vote and a serious vote when you gave a naked vote?
Allwinapprentice - 5 |AsianInvasion, Reya_Cookiebringer, DRey, Gaea's Reagent, void
DRey - 3 |Drifting Skies, Vishamon, Wheat_Grinder
tordeck - 1 |kill-joy
Reya_Cookiebringer - 1 |Digi
Gaea's Reagent - 1 |tordeck
Vishamon - 1 |Iso
Indeed, you'll have to take it on faith that I was simply "playing along" with RVS, and did not place a serious vote because of a fake daykill during RVS.
@Allin please say something, how about a town/scum list for us? It certainly can help...
@someone I was not being condescending or something like that, I'm totally serious when I said I was sorry for the guy.
Also Vishamon is probably town.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
OOC:
Sorry for my abscence last night and the answers that you all desire to hear i woll post tonight. Relatives came into town and I wasn't able to get on. I am done work in about 2 hours and will post answers tonight after reading through the posts I missed.
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Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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At the time of placing my vote I had a possible town read on DReY from this post:
This was not by any means a definitive read but from my original look over the thread up to this point I placed DReY as potential town.
As for following his vote, that as we all have figured out was a barn vote which to some is a scum tell, but in all reality that vote made as much sense to me as me randomly picking anyone else. Both options would of been viewed as scumtells. So I put my vote with the person who I believed to be potential scum from what I have read so far.
For self voting myself it was not meant to help it was a sarcastic vote because people were switching to voting me based off of an overreaction (newb move) and then overexaggeration of what I posted and coulndt support with hard links (newb move). So this was not a serious vote by any means.
To answer what DReY asked here is how I currently see people:
Town:
Iso
Void
AI (very aggressive scum hunter though, which sometimes could be scum like)
Vishamon
Scum:
DReY (very aggressive to get first lynch done and out of the way without making sure it is the best choice for town)
GR (votes seem to follow others without a strong sense of independent reasoning)
Ones I am still not completely sure of enough to place them on a side:
Kill-joy (just not enough posts for me to read yet)
Digi (again just not enough content to read yet)
TheEndisNear(same as above)
Wheat Grinder, Tordeck, Cyouni, SXe, Reya, Drifting I am still keeping an open mind about, while they have posted content that has me leaning one way or another none of it has been concrete enough for me to place them but I do have my ideas for thier alignment.
The vote count is wrong from what I can see, in post #193 Iso changed his vote from me to Vish. I request a recount please
I am voting for DReY because from when he gave a hard push against me for making a bad judgement I felt it was very scumlike. While my vote and overreaction to my wagon are viewed as a scumtell to some, for him it seemed enough to convict and lynch on before we even had heard from all the players. This shows to me that he has no concern with who the best lynch would be and is just trying to lynch the first non-scum that he had a point he could work with. He is tunneling on me and my post no longer matter for his decision. Also I have noticed that DReY has been dodging questions, the most recent being post #203 and multiple questions put forth by Void in post #197. Rather then answering the questions presented to him he again brought up the idea that I should be lynched quickly and deflected the conversation from these questions.
At least, that's my viewpoint on the matter. In any case, I'm still reserving judgement on Allwin, though his actions do not look favorable. I will at least wait until he provides an explanation for his actions (post 212 promises as much this evening).
sXe's vote on DRey is really not looking good to me. It's based solely on DRey's having an imperfect recollection until being primed. It could possibly, if you look at it just right, be seen as maybe a suggestion of Iso / DRey on team scum, but the hoops you have to jump through to see it this way suggest that the evidence does not support this. DRey's vote and harping of the town "Why isn't the scum lynched yet...?" (post 211) has me suspicious that he's trying to push for a mislynch. This overly aggressive behavior does not sit well with me, but sXe's reasoning is so bad for his vote that I can't simply overlook it.
Unvote DRey, Vote sXe, Retain FoS: DRey.
Iso's post (193) raises some suspicions of me that I'm going to address now:
Perhaps "reaction" would have been a better word to use in this context? I meant that line in the context of "The first thing that crossed my mind when I read his posts was..."
I have no one person in particular for the first half about anyone slipping up on sufficient pressure - this is rather a general assessment across all interrogations (both in games of Mafia and in real life police interrogations) - eventually, anyone is going to get tired of answering pointed questions over and over again. "said person" in this context is referring to Allwin here - I don't think Allwin is necessarily a boon to the town and has made a lot of slipups, but I don't believe that he is definitively scum, just n00b.
Not necessarily the condescension as a scum tell itself, but his (DRey's) mindset of "we got him, let's wrap this up and go home" that is being conveyed here suggests that he's interested in either closing out discussion before the town can gather more information, or he's pushing for a mislynch. In either case, the aggressive mentality suggests to me, as a person who's never played with him, or you, for that matter, scum. The second half of this statement is meta information, and I don't have the meta-knowledge on which to base this decision.
Again, meta.
I think that Drey and Allwin are not both scum (one or the other or neither, but not both). Given DRey's aggressiveness is putting a lot of suspicion on him and Allwin both, it just doesn't make sense to me that scum DRey would push scum Allwin so hard in such a nonchalant way, since it seems like a great way to get both of them lynched or shot by some town PR. Meanwhile, scum DRey has a good reason to push for the mislynch of Allwin, taking advantage of the latter's less-than-optimal performance, to put it lightly. Town DRey is going to push hard for someone he believes to be scum, and that's true regardless of Allwin's true alignment. So, I think at most one of the two is scum, but they're both suspicious right now (along with sXe, who I've elaborated on above).
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(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
This really stands out to me, because it does suggest that either Allwin is not taking this seriously, or he's actively trying to hurt the town (and the logical conclusion to this is that he is scum).
However, his point against DRey is also in line with my suspicions - there is a good deal of deflection by DRey, and I don't think Allwin's assessment that DRey is tunneling is completely invalid - his most recent posts (211 and 214) suggest that he's pushing on Allwin to deflect pressure off himself.
Though I do need to look at the last line of 211 - Why does DRey go out of his way to say: "Also, Vishamon is probably town"? This says to me "I know something you don't, and I'm not going to explain my reasoning." This is not a scum tell in the sense that only the scum would say something like this - there could be masons, lovers, etc. in this game, but it certainly tips the odds in favor of his being scum, and I retain my suspicion on him. Having said this, sXe's vote on DRey is so horrid that I maintain my vote on him.
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(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
I'd be on you for this specifically in a second if you weren't DRey. Luckily there's other tells to be found here.
"Oh no I didn't really mean that I was just exaggerating." That's a really neat way to back off from slips. Just handwave them away.
Not gonna work for me.
I swear I've done this as noob town. And as non-noob town. Actually I remember doing this as recently as Republican Candidates Mafia, where I was town.
Which way are you leaning on all of these? Use leaning town and leaning scum to describe it. Also reasoning would be lovely.
to clarify that wording, the vote was not meant to help myself. I didnt mean that it wasnt meant to help the town. This response was in reference to Viod's questoins in post 197 to me asking if I believe I would benefit from makin this move.
As requested:
Wheat_Grinder, Drifting Skies: I am leaning towards town on you two and currently for very similar reasons. You are both posting and actively trying to scumhunt and find the best lynch possible for day 1. So currently I believe you could be town but I am not sold on your alignment as of yet.
Drifting Skies even though you have only posted 8 times I feel more confindent in my choice of alignment at this time because your posts have good content and arent just naming a vote with 1-2 lines of reasoning.
The last few players are only slightly leaning towards these sides and I havent made a more confident read on them because there just isnt enough posts yet for me to decide where they align.
Reya (10 posts)
currently leaning towards scum here. Very aggressive along the same lines as DReY and seems to follow votes of others using the same reasoning just reworded.
Tordeck (9 posts)
leaning town, havent had anything to show otherwise as of yet
sXe (6 posts)
leaning scum
Because he has put forth some votes without reasoning attached when it by this point is pretty obvious that you will just be asked for it after you vote, so why not include it with your vote?
Cyouni (5 posts)
leaning town, havent had anything to show otherwise as of yet
@Mod: Prod TheEndIsNear please.
Bolding added by me.
I'm really not liking how you are putting words in my mouth. To take an unexplained vote on a single person, and come up with a scenario in which the voter is trying to link two people in a scum team? Naughty boy.
Some votes mean more than one, correct? I voted for DRey; who were my other votes on?
I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine. If you fell me voting with no attached reason is bad, then why wasn't DRey's?
Official Straight Edge Member of the Called
I thought I read another vote but upon review I see only one. My apologies to you for that miscounting. To answer your question, I feel the same way about DReY for his voting but I felt that the reasons I stated in an earlier post held more weight in why I believe he is scum than his voting without reason.
I'm liking my vote right where it is.
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModReminding newmod that I'm going to be somewhat oddly sporadic for the next week or so (in addition to the last week).
Considering as newb town for now.
DRy's reasoning is both faulty and scummy.
However, that has no real bearing on his alignment.
The comment about daytalk is interesting, though, because he's the first to mention something like that.
Why?
Oh?
You say that DRey's reasoning is both faulty and scummy but it doesn't have bearing on alignment. Could you expand further on why you feel it doesn't have a connection?
Cyouni is saying that he thinks DRey is a bad Mafia player. I give DRey a little more credit than that. The "y no lynch" comment solidifies it for me, as well.
Thanks for expounding on your T/S list; I was just about to ask the same of you.
Unvote
Vote DRey
I'm trying to figure out the reasoning for your unexplained vote, which looks really bad to me. By your own estimation, you've failed to explain your vote thus far, and I would like to know the reasoning behind it. I agree with the choice of vote, but your reasoning (or rather, lack thereof) thus far has me very suspicious.
Mod: Prod Kill-Joy
Request Vote Count
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
DRey - 5 |Vishamon, Wheat_Grinder, sXe, Allwinapprentice, AsianInvasion
Allwinapprentice - 4 |Reya_Cookiebringer, DRey, Gaea's Reagent, void
tordeck - 1 |kill-joy
Reya_Cookiebringer - 1 |Digi
Gaea's Reagent - 1 |tordeck
Vishamon - 1 |Iso
sXe - 1|Drifting Skies
Prods don't go out until tomorrow.
Mostly because of post 211. I also didn't like how he answered my question/has been interacting with people. He seems more interested in trying to bully people to do what he says rather than actually scumhunt/play the game. Last time I played with him, he was town, and he felt scummy, but he wasn't being a bully that game either.
Basically, DRey always appears scummy, but with post 211 in addition to how he's interacting this game, he has convinced me he's scum.
Official Straight Edge Member of the Called
Speaking of players who have posted no content whatsoever this game...
I wasn't disputing your vote, but your reasoning previously was lacking. Thanks for clearing this up:
Unvote: sXe
@The End is Near: I would request your analysis at this time. You've been lurking and lacking in the posts-of-content department. I would hear your thoughts on the game up to this point.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
So about what I think about you guys? Well I'm not quite sure. One thing I find odd is that noone just goes "I AM TOWN" as a big sign. If you are a townie it's like sacrificing yourself for the greater good. It doesn't say anything about you as scum might try to pass as town doing that, but going by people's reaction to that (actually maybe not, cause they'll expect a scum to maybe try 50% of the time) you know what nvm. Stupid idea. I'll keep it here cause I'm quite interested by what people can analyse by little text. I kinda feel like trying to analyse myself. Being so honnest makes me look town. Being made to look town makes me look scum. Town gets nothing from being looked at as scum except for (tbh, the rules kinda confuse me a bit) not being nightkilled by the scum (I think I read somewhere they can vote and nightkill someone every night) actully thats exacly why noone would go "IM TOWN".
This is confusing. I'll leave it as that.
Lets see what goes on now, I'm guessing all the attention will fall on me like it did Allwin earlier.
(I don't quite like The End is Near, if you don't mind TEIN is cooler ;P)
Are you having diffculties reading the game?
Why?
Where did DRey vote for Shalako? Quote please.
Possible and potential Town read on DRey just to stick him in scum category.
Please elaborate.
Not liking how specific players have comments attached. Going to keep an eye on those players.
Are you saying scum is incapable of doing what DRey did?
Do you believe DRey missed the question on purpose or accidentally missed them? Please give some support with your answer.
Your honesty is good enough to view as town for now.
Do you have a reason not to believe Iso is town?
If it was as easy as shouting you were town everyone would do it.
The way to determine alignment is through motivation; try to figure out whether scum or town would say a certain statement, or phrase things a certain way. Do it enough over the course of a game and bam you've got an idea of which alignment someone is.
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He did not, tmk.
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This is why your vote on DRey was bad IMO.
DRey was doing that for reactions. I've seen DRey try to push that enevlope too many times in the past and have seen it blow up in his face because of the person flipping town.
Yes, yes you are. Anyone who would doubt this at this point needs to reread this post until all doubt is erased.
Considering Wheat_Grinder's (good) advice regarding reading into a player's motivations in order to determine whether that player is town or scum, are there any players whose motivations (or words in general) do not seem to line up with their actions (specifically, votes or other calls for a lynch)?
Thank you for your contribution.
Are there any players who you think may be scum?
That seems as baseless as going "you are scum" and anyone who doesn't get it needs to retread what I wrote until they see it. May I see your line of thought?
I didn't vote him? I'm not pushing Drey atm?
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