This is my first game as well (in at least two to three years).
With that said, I'm not nearly at the point where I'm stating that anyone is scum or not. I am saying that I'd like to have more information rather than less to make my final voting decision for today. This is hardly a "case" against anyone. Just a bit of information gathering.
Final voting decision? This reads like you only intend to make one vote today. Can you clarify?
Yeah, that makes sense. A little pressure for the purposes of information gathering is a useful tool. However, there are derpy doos who think Cythare is actually scum (I won't specifically name any of them but one of them is Megiddo), who are the people I mostly aimed my comment at.
You have reason to believe Cythare isn't scum? All the tells I've seen from him up to this point are noob or null. Not town or scum specific. Can you point out what makes you believe he's not scum at that point?
I said you were a derpy doo, not scum. Of course, this opinion can change.
And a little mud might be appropriate if it's being slung at the chief mudslinger himself.
I take it "derpy doo" means wrong. That's fine if you're saying he's wrong... But... why do you follow it up with threatening to call him scum if he continues that line of thought?
Also, can you quote where he's mudslinging up to that point? I find 'chief mudslinger', especially at that point, to be an exaggeration.
FTR, I agree that Megiddo is likely wrong about Cathare at that point. I have my own reasons for thinking this, but would like to hear yours.
First, you're using loaded language. "slammed" implies a very strong attack. Here's my post, for examination:
I asked him a question. I'd hardly call that "slamming."
Second, yes, I am attacking you, but not for "calling me out" on asking a question. I'm attacking you for defending cythare when he could and should have spoken for himself.
You're tying yourself to Cythare. Now you're reframing the events of the game to make me look bad. Why?
Hm. +town for Megiddo.
In the event that Cythare is town, is "defending" him and tying himself to him in this case still scummy?
Well, that answers that question. Glad we didn't have a huge game derailment that soon into day one.
Cythare, do *you* think that Atog is tying himself to you? I'm not sure whether the backstabbing post was agreeing with Megiddo or simply an explanation of why he might be doing so.
What does this question accomplish? How will his answer tell you anything about his alignment?
You said "I don't want to start backstabbing people I don't know well enough yet so I am sorry but I will vote Atogaholic."
But you've interacted with Atog pregame by your own admission. You know him "well enough." That's why you voted for him, right? So why not say this:
"I don't want to start backstabbing people I don't know well enough yet so I will vote Atogaholic instead."
Sidebar: I really, really, REALLY don't like language tells. Sure, verbiage can give you insight into someone's mindset. But it's less reliable than people think.
Anyway, back to the game.
That's funny. He's still useful as a doctor. He's still useful (although less so) as a vig. And he's even marginally useful as an information role if he can build back his credibility.
Cythare is in deer-in-the-headlights mode: he's incapable of giving a good defense for himself, so he still could be town.If we lynch Cythare and he flips town power, I couldn't live with myself. Could you?
@Albus & Deathjoey
I hope to god you don't have itchy trigger fingers. Please don't vote in your first posts.
@Cythare
Please don't claim.
That's a WHOLE lotta WIFOM. What reason do you have to assume he's a town power role at all?
If he flips a town power role, that sucks, sure. But... then if he get's lynched Day 1, he played scummy enough for the town to lynch him in the first place.
Re: the italicized bit: Deer in headlights is just as likely noob town as noob caught scum. Why did you come to the conclusion that he's Town based on that evidence?
There's not really any evidence that there are town power roles right now, though it's certainly a possibility. For all I know, it's 10 townies vs. 2 scum with the scum having one power role.
This is a Basic. It won't be that complicated. It's MOST likely there's 9-3 with some power roles thrown in. Barring flips to the contrary, it's best to assume that.
Let's assume your position though - suppose there are town power roles, and suppose further that Cythare is one of them. What does the town stand to gain?
We're in a 9-3 game if we assume town power. If he's a vigilante, I'm a little worried if he turns out to be trigger happy and offs a townie night 1. That puts us to 6-3 right off the bat, which gives us only one mislynch before town dies.
If he's cop, this would not be much better - he's hardly credible at this point - at least, I wouldn't accept his claim or his results at face value at this point.
Vote Drifting Skies FOS Atog
I was gonna vote Atog until I saw this. If he claims vig or cop... you're saying you wouldn't accept it? That's just not a townie mindset. If someone claims PR, barring HUGE evidence against them, you accept it. Huge evidence includes CC, or proof that their role isn't in the game. Or proof that they didn't do thier job overnight.
If he's a doc, there's a solid case to not lynch - I don't think scum wants to target him right now based solely on behavior patterns - he's deflected a ton of pressure off them (or the rest of them, if he's actually scum) and he can protect unfettered for at least a night or two.
This is also not a town mindset. The only claim he will accept is a doc claim, which means scum get to NK the doc that night. Cop or vig is harder to NK with the threat of Doc protection.
This alone makes me not want to lynch him right now - Cop should check him instead. He's clear, he's just making some mistakes. He's cop-confirmed scum, his neck goes tomorrow. The downside to this is if he's actually the cop - he can't really be cop-cleared.
And you're directing PRs???
Unvote: Cythare Vote: Albus
It's time for the lurkers to weigh in.
And... this does what? If he's not here, you really think voting for him's gonna get him here?
Before I start in on my analysis, I would like to know the following from everyone: How experienced are you at mafia? Beginner, average, or experienced.
I want to know who I'm working with and what kind of players they are.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Cythare was at L-2. Two people haven't posted in this thread yet.
That's why I didn't vote when he was at L-3 and why I don't understand why Shinen did.
L-2 is claim range on this site. And whats the worst that happens. two scum come in and try a quick hammer. Great we just caught the next two lynches and ride this to win town.
Before I start in on my analysis, I would like to know the following from everyone: How experienced are you at mafia? Beginner, average, or experienced.
I want to know who I'm working with and what kind of players they are.
Most of the regulars have it either in their sig or their blog here on Sally. If they dont you can assume they are fairly new.
If we're going to quicklynch Cythare he might as well have been modkilled
We've gotten as much out of him as possible short of a claim. If someone else wants to push him to L-2, be my quest. I'm not doing anything until Atog actually posts instead of waiting for the dust to settle.
Albus and Deathjoey also need to start posting first.
Wait, we're running Cythare up. Why are you waiting for tog?
There is the possibility that this is just a flustered townie who doesn't know how to respond under pressure. However, in that scenario, most of his credibility as town is gone and I'm not sure he's particularly beneficial for the town in either case.
We do still have two more people who need to weigh in though, and I would prefer not to lynch until they have made some statement or another about their thoughts on the game.
1. yes duh. Except for that last part.
2. I was agreeing with you up here.
That's funny. He's still useful as a doctor. He's still useful (although less so) as a vig. And he's even marginally useful as an information role if he can build back his credibility.
Cythare is in deer-in-the-headlights mode: he's incapable of giving a good defense for himself, so he still could be town. If we lynch Cythare and he flips town power, I couldn't live with myself. Could you?
@Albus & Deathjoey
I hope to god you don't have itchy trigger fingers. Please don't vote in your first posts.
@Cythare
Please don't claim.
This is such a bizarre post. You say a bunch of super obvious things that have no bearing on the game state. Yes, any of us could be power roles. Cythare could be a PR. He could be vanilla. He could be scum.
Deer in the headlights? Sure. But that doesn't mean you just pull back and look elsewhere! We are voting him for a reason. Are you expecting the scum to just up and claim scum? Doesn't happen that way. Cythare made posts that indicate he may be noob scum, as tordeck has pointed out. We are applying pressure on him because of this.
You are now fearmongering to protect Cythare. Why? Do you know something we do not about Cythare?
There's not really any evidence that there are town power roles right now, though it's certainly a possibility. For all I know, it's 10 townies vs. 2 scum with the scum having one power role.
Let's assume your position though - suppose there are town power roles, and suppose further that Cythare is one of them. What does the town stand to gain?
We're in a 9-3 game if we assume town power. If he's a vigilante, I'm a little worried if he turns out to be trigger happy and offs a townie night 1. That puts us to 6-3 right off the bat, which gives us only one mislynch before town dies.
If he's cop, this would not be much better - he's hardly credible at this point - at least, I wouldn't accept his claim or his results at face value at this point.
If he's a doc, there's a solid case to not lynch - I don't think scum wants to target him right now based solely on behavior patterns - he's deflected a ton of pressure off them (or the rest of them, if he's actually scum) and he can protect unfettered for at least a night or two.
This alone makes me not want to lynch him right now - Cop should check him instead. He's clear, he's just making some mistakes. He's cop-confirmed scum, his neck goes tomorrow. The downside to this is if he's actually the cop - he can't really be cop-cleared.
Unvote: Cythare Vote: Albus
It's time for the lurkers to weigh in.
1. Thanks for claiming vanilla.
1b. ...Or you could be scum trying too hard to pretend you don't know about the setup.
2. This entire post is garbage. I tried to read it to get something to say but you're literally just saying words. Maybe we should wait for cythare to claim before speculating on the first to-be-revealed role in the game???
3. I also like how you go from "THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY PRs" to "THE COP SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIM." Like, what???
I am very much legitimately wanting to get more information day one rather than just hammer on a person who seems very scummy. We have a goodly amount of information to suggest that Cythare is scum, but that doesn't make finding the rest of the scum any easier for us. At the very least, I'm not going to see someone offed while there are players yet to add to the conversation. I'd prefer to go into night one with as much information as I can.
Already addressed this, but I want to reiterate that this is more drivel.
I should add to my previous explanation that I have never played a game with anyone here and I have no meta-information to suggest how quickly people will lynch. You've played multiple games and have this sort of information.
In any case, I'm going to leave my vote as it is, but I will point out that I've now got a FoS pointed at Megiddo. You do seem overly certain that his noob mistakes are also scum tells.
Already hit this but:
1. That is a legitimate concern, which explains some but not all of your garbage posts. I'll give you a pass on the weird brake-slamming post because of this meta business.
2. Again, you're assigning a mentality to me that isn't there. Words in my mouth. Why?
Absolutely! I have absolutely ZERO intention of committing suicide over some stupid internet game! In fact, I have a hard time believing you would either. Though if you WERE for some reason serious, I urge you to seek professional help, immediately!
Would it suck to lynch Town Power? Sure. But why do you think lynching Cythare is more likely to lead to lynching Town Power than lynching anyone else would? Do you have some reason to suspect he is Town Power? Or is this just fearmongering to try to reduce heat on your scumbuddy?
And if you reeeeeally feel the need, go ahead and accuse me of fishing. But I think questioning why you fear a Town Power lynch specifically if we lynch Cythare over anyone else is a legitimate question.
1. I second the recommendation to see a mental health professional if you are experiencing suicidal ideation.
2. keep posting please.
I wanted to keep going but I can only handle so much at once.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Many of you misunderstand me. The point is not how many games you've played, but rather how you would rate yourself as a player. I consider myself a very experienced player. I am attempting to get a "feel" for the players in the game and their skill levels. That is best started with a personal analysis.
I've been preparing a larger post covering what's happened so far. Expect that around Sunday. This week is rather chaotic for me.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Many of you misunderstand me. The point is not how many games you've played, but rather how you would rate yourself as a player. I consider myself a very experienced player. I am attempting to get a "feel" for the players in the game and their skill levels. That is best started with a personal analysis.
I've been preparing a larger post covering what's happened so far. Expect that around Sunday. This week is rather chaotic for me.
I have never sat down and had the conversation with myself about how good or bad I am at mafia. I'm also not real plugged in with the regulars so I don't get a huge amount of feedback on it. If you want to get your own info, go ahead and read my games.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
k-j: If Cythare is town, that would point to Tog simply trying to be careful with the game, I think. I don't feel like scum would want to bodyguard a townie like that.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I asked him a question. I'd hardly call that "slamming."
By gads you're right! If all you did was merely ask him a question, then that wouldn't be slamming at all! I mean, its not like you said he was scum or anything!
Second, yes, I am attacking you, but not for "calling me out" on asking a question. I'm attacking you for defending cythare when he could and should have spoken for himself.
Let me get this right. You are attacking me for defending cythare?
Quote from Megiddo »
I'm attacking you for defending cythare when he could and should have spoken for himself.
I'll take that as a yes.
What you are saying here is that a player should never defend another player, because that player could and should have spoken for themself. What??
Now there is a difference between defending another player and answering questions for them. The latter is scummy, the former isn't. Don't confuse these.
There were two other players who posted before me agreeing with you that cythare was acting suspicious. One of them even voted. Then I posted, disagreeing with you. You can't go after people just because they disagree with you.
Neither of your reasons for attacking me are particularly strong.
Quote from Megiddo »
You're tying yourself to Cythare. Now you're reframing the events of the game to make me look bad. Why?
Let's start with this part first:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're tying yourself to Cythare.
I am not tying myself to cythare. You sir are the person who is trying to tie cythare and me together.
All I have said before concerning cythare was the post saying that I didn't think the argument against him was very good.
You have been tying us together from the beginning, starting with this post:
No one is tying me and cythare together, except for megiddo.
Quote from Megiddo »
Now you're reframing the events of the game to make me look bad. Why?
1. I'm not the one reframing the game's events.
2. You don't need my help to look bad.
Quote from Shinen »
What you want here is a hash tag (#) not an at (@). @ implies you are speaking to someone, # is about.
Ok thanks for the advice. Lets see what other helpful comments you can offer.
Quote from Shinen »
He is tying himself to Cythare, to some extent. Which inclines me to believe that they are not both mafia, though I don't know how good at this game atog is, having never played with him. If he's good, though, he would let the other maf establish himself first. Instead he's playing to look out for scum among those who are attacking Cythare.
This post reads kinda confusing-like, but what I get from it is that you correctly peg me as a townie who is looking for scum among the people going after cythare, ok cool.
I don't really have a good explanation for anything else beyond what I said, since I just figured I'd vote too since everyone else was voting. The language was just because I didn't put too much thought into my phrasing.
Why is it that every time I read this it reads as newbscum.
Oh my my RVS vote is still up. Unvote meg. However, I am going to FoS meg for twisting situations in order to attack me / trying to get me tied to cythare.
Why do you assume the town does not have the self restraint to avoid lynching an unclaimed townie?
And in a shocking turn of events, megiddo, yes megidoo, says something sensible! There's a reason claim range is at L-2 guys, its so that the town can get as close as possible to a lynch to threaten someone while still being far enough so as not to be in danger of a quicklynch. This town is perfectly capable of *not* quicklynching someone, and I think everybody here agrees that we need to wait for everyone to weigh in before rushing into anything.
Quote from The Most Curious Thing »
That's funny. He's still useful as a doctor. He's still useful (although less so) as a vig. And he's even marginally useful as an information role if he can build back his credibility.
Cythare is in deer-in-the-headlights mode: he's incapable of giving a good defense for himself, so he still could be town. If we lynch Cythare and he flips town power, I couldn't live with myself. Could you?
@Albus & Deathjoey
I hope to god you don't have itchy trigger fingers. Please don't vote in your first posts.
@Cythare
Please don't claim.
This is not a good reason to not lynch somebody. He could be doc yes, but for all we know there is no doc and he's just scum. This is borderline modgaming and fearmongering. Please stop.
Before I start in on my analysis, I would like to know the following from everyone: How experienced are you at mafia? Beginner, average, or experienced.
I am a beginner, and I have completed one other game off-site.
Quote from kill-joy »
You have reason to believe Cythare isn't scum? All the tells I've seen from him up to this point are noob or null. Not town or scum specific. Can you point out what makes you believe he's not scum at that point?
No no no no. Megiddo has been blowing my "defense" of cythare way out of proportion. All I did was take objection to the fact that cythare was already drawing flak after the first post he made in mafia ever. Remember when I said that cythare had only made that one post and hadn't started leaking suspicion yet.
Quote from kill-joy »
I take it "derpy doo" means wrong. That's fine if you're saying he's wrong... But... why do you follow it up with threatening to call him scum if he continues that line of thought?
Also, can you quote where he's mudslinging up to that point? I find 'chief mudslinger', especially at that point, to be an exaggeration.
"Derpy doo" means he's being dumb, I was taking offense to the fact that he was calling cythare scum already. Mudslinging was when he tied cythare and me together in a fantasy scumteam, then accused me of actively defending cythare while actively attacking him, then accused me of mudslinging. Yes, apparently Shedinja *can* learn muddy water!
k-j: If Cythare is town, that would point to Tog simply trying to be careful with the game, I think. I don't feel like scum would want to bodyguard a townie like that.
That's a WHOLE lotta WIFOM. What reason do you have to assume he's a town power role at all?
If he flips a town power role, that sucks, sure. But... then if he get's lynched Day 1, he played scummy enough for the town to lynch him in the first place.
Re: the italicized bit: Deer in headlights is just as likely noob town as noob caught scum. Why did you come to the conclusion that he's Town based on that evidence?
This is such a bizarre post. You say a bunch of super obvious things that have no bearing on the game state. Yes, any of us could be power roles. Cythare could be a PR. He could be vanilla. He could be scum.
Deer in the headlights? Sure. But that doesn't mean you just pull back and look elsewhere! We are voting him for a reason. Are you expecting the scum to just up and claim scum? Doesn't happen that way. Cythare made posts that indicate he may be noob scum, as tordeck has pointed out. We are applying pressure on him because of this.
You are now fearmongering to protect Cythare. Why? Do you know something we do not about Cythare?
This is not a good reason to not lynch somebody. He could be doc yes, but for all we know there is no doc and he's just scum. This is borderline modgaming and fearmongering. Please stop.
Post #79 was an unnecessarily poor and aggressive post (and it ironically reads like a deer-in-the-headlights post in retrospect). Posts #89-95 should settle the matter. I was irrationally worried about a Cythare lynch so early in the Day and fearmongered the thought that we could be lynching a town PR, which is obvious and didn't need to be stated in the first place.
L-2 is claim range on this site. And whats the worst that happens. two scum come in and try a quick hammer. Great we just caught the next two lynches and ride this to win town.
And in a shocking turn of events, megiddo, yes megidoo, says something sensible! There's a reason claim range is at L-2 guys, its so that the town can get as close as possible to a lynch to threaten someone while still being far enough so as not to be in danger of a quicklynch. This town is perfectly capable of *not* quicklynching someone, and I think everybody here agrees that we need to wait for everyone to weigh in before rushing into anything.
I wanted them, and Atog, to weigh in before I (or the rest of the town) did anything rash. And that itself was irrational.
Sorry for turning all of you into de facto mentors
What does this question accomplish? How will his answer tell you anything about his alignment?
Nothing. What it tells me is his analysis of other players, which is relevant especially if we were to lynch him and he flipped town (or, for that matter, if he flipped mafia-but that would be mostly wifom so its use would be debatable.)
Also in this post but not relevant enough to re-quote: You mention disliking language gaming, but start the post with calling someone out based on it.
Most of the regulars have it either in their sig or their blog here on Sally. If they dont you can assume they are fairly new.
I've got something like 2-3 games on here, but they're from the very beginning of my experience with mafia. I can dig them up if people would like, but I don't know how helpful they'd be.
That being said, I'd consider myself middling amount of experience.
Ok thanks for the advice. Lets see what other helpful comments you can offer.
This post reads kinda confusing-like, but what I get from it is that you correctly peg me as a townie who is looking for scum among the people going after cythare, ok cool.
Whoa nellie that was a fast 180, I think I even felt a breeze. You posted this 3 minutes after that that first post, lol.
I do what I can.
Yes, that's what I meant by that post. Assuming you are experienced (Basically not extremely new) you read to me like you're attempting to find out who has a legitimate vote on Cythare and who is simply scum. The next post is specifically in the case of you being very new to the game; its a newb scum mistake to tie yourself, even a little, to other scum.
Also, just to reiterate what everyone else has said so far, I'd really like to see what Deathjoey thinks of all of this before it gets even further out of control.
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Modern WWWHatebearsWWW
Final voting decision? This reads like you only intend to make one vote today. Can you clarify?
I throw fingers and votes around like candy at Halloween, especially this early in the day and this early in the game. I've already voted for three or four people thus far. Sooner or later I'll make a final decision on who I feel is most likely to be scum. Until then, I vote pretty haphazardly as a matter of principle.
What assessment? What reasons did he give that you agree with? (Hint: He didn't give any reasons, so there's really no assessment to agree with).
Why do you agree with him on his votes?
It appears that he was making a lot of mistakes commonly attributable to beginning players who are scum. To that extent, I agree with Tordeck. Cythare was being overly flustered even from the start, was grasping for rationales to explain himself when no one was asking for them, apologizing for decisions that warrant no apologies, etc. However, at the same time, a player who has never played before would make similar mistakes, town or scum. He's made a lot of serious play mistakes. What I'm not certain of at this point is that said play mistakes are scum tells.
This is a Basic. It won't be that complicated. It's MOST likely there's 9-3 with some power roles thrown in. Barring flips to the contrary, it's best to assume that.
Probably so. However, I don't like the whole assumption that I or anyone else is going to know what is meant by a "basic" if they've never played here before.
Reasonable given the evidence before me that you present. I personally feel like you're twisting words around to make me look guilty, but that's kind of the point here.
I was gonna vote Atog until I saw this. If he claims vig or cop... you're saying you wouldn't accept it? That's just not a townie mindset. If someone claims PR, barring HUGE evidence against them, you accept it. Huge evidence includes CC, or proof that their role isn't in the game. Or proof that they didn't do thier job overnight.
I'm saying that it would be difficult to accept his results with any credibility. I'm also doubly saying that a vigilante has the potential to be extremely dangerous to the town in the case that they go shooting off someone random night 1.
This is also not a town mindset. The only claim he will accept is a doc claim, which means scum get to NK the doc that night. Cop or vig is harder to NK with the threat of Doc protection.
I think you're misconstruing my words here. I'm not asking Cythare to claim anything at this point. I'm looking at hypotheticals and trying to do some Bayesian analysis to determine the best outcome for town as a whole. I'm saying "Given Cythare is X role", what does that mean for the town, and how does it fare for us versus lynching someone else.
Directing? No. Offering my personal ideas on what to do under different scenarios? Yes, I am taking the unreasonable step of offering my advice on where town PR's might want to investigate/protect. Also, the harshness here does make me feel a little indignant.
Many of you misunderstand me. The point is not how many games you've played, but rather how you would rate yourself as a player. I consider myself a very experienced player. I am attempting to get a "feel" for the players in the game and their skill levels. That is best started with a personal analysis.
I would rate myself among the worst players that I know. My behavioral analysis is pretty poor and I'm only decent when I can do a thorough role analysis, something that this sort of setup isn't conducive to.
Quote from Megiddo »
1. Thanks for claiming vanilla.
1b. ...Or you could be scum trying too hard to pretend you don't know about the setup.
2. This entire post is garbage. I tried to read it to get something to say but you're literally just saying words. Maybe we should wait for cythare to claim before speculating on the first to-be-revealed role in the game???
3. I also like how you go from "THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY PRs" to "THE COP SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIM." Like, what???
1) Not a problem.
1b) Obviously, there's only two ways to conclusively show that I'm town. One involves my neck in a noose and the other involves using a cop's ability. I'd rather lynch and investigate scum, so I don't think I can come out and "prove" I'm town.
2) Again, hypotheticals about what possibilities there are in the game. That I speculate out loud is probably me making a n00b mistake. To that end, there's little I can do to address your concerns.
3) I've got nothing either.
Quote from Megiddo »
1. That is a legitimate concern, which explains some but not all of your garbage posts. I'll give you a pass on the weird brake-slamming post because of this meta business.
2. Again, you're assigning a mentality to me that isn't there. Words in my mouth. Why?
1) Thanks. A lot of the so-called garbage posts are my way of trying to keep the flow of the game from stalling out. I really don't want to wait a week before the game picks up the game. Call me impatient.
2) As I see it, you were (still are to some extent) placing a lot of pressure on Cythare while simultaneously acknowledging that n00b town and n00b scum make a lot of the same mistakes. It's just as likely that he'll cave and be found town as being found scum, if not more so, under this pretense. Assume for the sake of argument here for a moment that Cythare is town - What would it take in this hypothetical world to convince you that Cythare is, in fact, town? If the answer is that nothing would, then you've placed him in a bind where his words will be twisted (by you) to make him look scummy no matter what. That's something I find a little bit suspicious, hence my FoS on you.
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I throw fingers and votes around like candy at Halloween, especially this early in the day and this early in the game. I've already voted for three or four people thus far. Sooner or later I'll make a final decision on who I feel is most likely to be scum. Until then, I vote pretty haphazardly as a matter of principle.
Votes and vote analysis are two of the strongest tools that Town has in their favor. Saying you are intentionally making any analysis of your votes meaningless is like saying you are intentionally acting anti-Town!
I hesitate to call it "scummy", but it is definitely anti-Town behavior.
I would like to thank the last post I read (unless I make a response and my own is the last post), and then un-thank it later when I read the newest posts... thanking the last post at that time.
Basically, I want to use the thank you system to keep track of which post was the last post I read in the thread so I don't have to try to remember each time I come back. It would be nice if these forums told us how many new posts there were like the Wizards forums do, but since they don't, I'm trying to come up with a way to do it myself.
Will you have any problem with me thanking and un-thanking posts during the game provided the above stated reason is the ONLY reason I am doing so?
The forum marks "new posts" with a red page-shaped icon in the upper left corner, and "old posts" with a similar blue icon.
I have edited the OP with a rule forbidding thanking posts by players or spectators.
I only know a few of these people, and I don't want to start backstabbing people I don't know well enough yet so I am sorry but I will vote Atogaholic. I can't trust that strange symbol of an avatar.
That strange symbol happens to be Tokien's Mark.
Just noting this post, as others have analysed the **** out of it already.
There is the possibility that this is just a flustered townie who doesn't know how to respond under pressure. However, in that scenario, most of his credibility as town is gone and I'm not sure he's particularly beneficial for the town in either case.
We do still have two more people who need to weigh in though, and I would prefer not to lynch until they have made some statement or another about their thoughts on the game.
Did you not think of this possibility earlier?
What substantial further evidenced arrised in the 2 posts between your posts that caused this change in opinion?
Looks like you're backing off to gauge opinions, and to try get others to see him as harmless. Fencesitting hard here.
That's funny. He's still useful as a doctor. He's still useful (although less so) as a vig. And he's even marginally useful as an information role if he can build back his credibility.
Cythare is in deer-in-the-headlights mode: he's incapable of giving a good defense for himself, so he still could be town. If we lynch Cythare and he flips town power, I couldn't live with myself. Could you?
Yes, he -could- be town... but was there anything he said that indicated town POWER?
There's not really any evidence that there are town power roles right now, though it's certainly a possibility. For all I know, it's 10 townies vs. 2 scum with the scum having one power role.
Let's assume your position though - suppose there are town power roles, and suppose further that Cythare is one of them. What does the town stand to gain?
We're in a 9-3 game if we assume town power. If he's a vigilante, I'm a little worried if he turns out to be trigger happy and offs a townie night 1. That puts us to 6-3 right off the bat, which gives us only one mislynch before town dies.
If he's cop, this would not be much better - he's hardly credible at this point - at least, I wouldn't accept his claim or his results at face value at this point.
If he's a doc, there's a solid case to not lynch - I don't think scum wants to target him right now based solely on behavior patterns - he's deflected a ton of pressure off them (or the rest of them, if he's actually scum) and he can protect unfettered for at least a night or two.
This alone makes me not want to lynch him right now - Cop should check him instead. He's clear, he's just making some mistakes. He's cop-confirmed scum, his neck goes tomorrow. The downside to this is if he's actually the cop - he can't really be cop-cleared.
Unvote: Cythare Vote: Albus
It's time for the lurkers to weigh in.
What is this crap. See kill-Joy's post for pretty much what I think.
Why do you assume town power?
Cool, so if he's vig, and we lynch him, we save ourselves a mis-vig. 1-for-1. Doesn't help that you're fearmongering to keep him alive.
You say if he's cop, he's not credible, and thus scum will leave him alone?
You repeated this argument before, and it looks like an effort to try get people off his back. Why?
Doc, what? Based on behaviour patterns? What wifom is this.
Directing cops, and then asking for the cop to out himself tomorrow to clear him? And then, wifom in the form of a cop claim?
What assessment? What reasons did he give that you agree with? (Hint: He didn't give any reasons, so there's really no assessment to agree with).
Why do you agree with him on his votes?
That's a WHOLE lotta WIFOM. What reason do you have to assume he's a town power role at all?
If he flips a town power role, that sucks, sure. But... then if he get's lynched Day 1, he played scummy enough for the town to lynch him in the first place.
Re: the italicized bit: Deer in headlights is just as likely noob town as noob caught scum. Why did you come to the conclusion that he's Town based on that evidence?
Vote Drifting Skies FOS Atog
I was gonna vote Atog until I saw this. If he claims vig or cop... you're saying you wouldn't accept it? That's just not a townie mindset. If someone claims PR, barring HUGE evidence against them, you accept it. Huge evidence includes CC, or proof that their role isn't in the game. Or proof that they didn't do thier job overnight.
This is also not a town mindset. The only claim he will accept is a doc claim, which means scum get to NK the doc that night. Cop or vig is harder to NK with the threat of Doc protection.
And you're directing PRs???
And... this does what? If he's not here, you really think voting for him's gonna get him here?
Ahh Kill-joy, this post is pure awesome.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one who see's this about D_S
This is a Basic. It won't be that complicated. It's MOST likely there's 9-3 with some power roles thrown in. Barring flips to the contrary, it's best to assume that.
You can't go after people just because they disagree with you.
You guys really shouldn't put too much credence into what megiddo says.
Yes, I agree with this statement, yet I don't agree that you should just ignore everything they say, just because they disagreed with you, or called you scum
I throw fingers and votes around like candy at Halloween, especially this early in the day and this early in the game. I've already voted for three or four people thus far. Sooner or later I'll make a final decision on who I feel is most likely to be scum. Until then, I vote pretty haphazardly as a matter of principle.
Haphazardly as a matter of principle? What principle?
Is the a per-emptive cover of future wagon hops?
It appears that he was making a lot of mistakes commonly attributable to beginning players who are scum. To that extent, I agree with Tordeck. Cythare was being overly flustered even from the start, was grasping for rationales to explain himself when no one was asking for them, apologizing for decisions that warrant no apologies, etc. However, at the same time, a player who has never played before would make similar mistakes, town or scum. He's made a lot of serious play mistakes. What I'm not certain of at this point is that said play mistakes are scum tells.
Again, contrary to your original view, you now say that you're not sure he's scum?
I think you're misconstruing my words here. I'm not asking Cythare to claim anything at this point. I'm looking at hypotheticals and trying to do some Bayesian analysis to determine the best outcome for town as a whole. I'm saying "Given Cythare is X role", what does that mean for the town, and how does it fare for us versus lynching someone else.
Wait, he never said anything about you asking Cythare to claim something...
Directing? No. Offering my personal ideas on what to do under different scenarios? Yes, I am taking the unreasonable step of offering my advice on where town PR's might want to investigate/protect. Also, the harshness here does make me feel a little indignant.
1) Thanks. A lot of the so-called garbage posts are my way of trying to keep the flow of the game from stalling out. I really don't want to wait a week before the game picks up the game. Call me impatient.
2) As I see it, you were (still are to some extent) placing a lot of pressure on Cythare while simultaneously acknowledging that n00b town and n00b scum make a lot of the same mistakes. It's just as likely that he'll cave and be found town as being found scum, if not more so, under this pretense. Assume for the sake of argument here for a moment that Cythare is town - What would it take in this hypothetical world to convince you that Cythare is, in fact, town? If the answer is that nothing would, then you've placed him in a bind where his words will be twisted (by you) to make him look scummy no matter what. That's something I find a little bit suspicious, hence my FoS on you.
So you find it suspicious, that he would find Cythare, both Noob town, and noob scum.
Cy, who Is/was at L-2 with YOUR VOTE on the wagon at the time, and the very same Cythare who you are now trying to paint as noob town?
Everything considered I think I shall go with a Vote Drifting Skies
I would much rather vote DS over Cy, as I believe more can be revealed from further interactions today.
Wait, we're running Cythare up. Why are you waiting for tog?
1. yes duh. Except for that last part.
2. I was agreeing with you up here.
This is such a bizarre post. You say a bunch of super obvious things that have no bearing on the game state. Yes, any of us could be power roles. Cythare could be a PR. He could be vanilla. He could be scum.
Deer in the headlights? Sure. But that doesn't mean you just pull back and look elsewhere! We are voting him for a reason. Are you expecting the scum to just up and claim scum? Doesn't happen that way. Cythare made posts that indicate he may be noob scum, as tordeck has pointed out. We are applying pressure on him because of this.
You are now fearmongering to protect Cythare. Why? Do you know something we do not about Cythare?
1. Thanks for claiming vanilla.
1b. ...Or you could be scum trying too hard to pretend you don't know about the setup.
2. This entire post is garbage. I tried to read it to get something to say but you're literally just saying words. Maybe we should wait for cythare to claim before speculating on the first to-be-revealed role in the game???
3. I also like how you go from "THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY PRs" to "THE COP SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIM." Like, what???
Already addressed this, but I want to reiterate that this is more drivel.
...because the logical step when we think we have caught scum is to have that person claim?
Already hit this but:
1. That is a legitimate concern, which explains some but not all of your garbage posts. I'll give you a pass on the weird brake-slamming post because of this meta business.
2. Again, you're assigning a mentality to me that isn't there. Words in my mouth. Why?
1. I second the recommendation to see a mental health professional if you are experiencing suicidal ideation.
2. keep posting please.
I wanted to keep going but I can only handle so much at once.
I could follow it alright, but when you do the 1. 2. thing, can you put corresponding numbers in the quote? Just for ease of reading?
k-j: If Cythare is town, that would point to Tog simply trying to be careful with the game, I think. I don't feel like scum would want to bodyguard a townie like that.
No no no no. Megiddo has been blowing my "defense" of cythare way out of proportion. All I did was take objection to the fact that cythare was already drawing flak after the first post he made in mafia ever. Remember when I said that cythare had only made that one post and hadn't started leaking suspicion yet.
Ok.
"Derpy doo" means he's being dumb, I was taking offense to the fact that he was calling cythare scum already. Mudslinging was when he tied cythare and me together in a fantasy scumteam, then accused me of actively defending cythare while actively attacking him, then accused me of mudslinging. Yes, apparently Shedinja *can* learn muddy water!
Nothing. What it tells me is his analysis of other players, which is relevant especially if we were to lynch him and he flipped town (or, for that matter, if he flipped mafia-but that would be mostly wifom so its use would be debatable.)
Also in this post but not relevant enough to re-quote: You mention disliking language gaming, but start the post with calling someone out based on it.
Ok.
Re: language gaming: I differentiate between questioning a person's verbiage and saying "this person said this, when he should have said THIS". Asking to determine intent and inferring it outright are different, and the latter is what I have a problem with. It's not scummy, it's a fault in logic that could happen to anyone. But ever since I noticed myself doing it inadvertently in my early mafia career, I've taken a dislike to it.
I throw fingers and votes around like candy at Halloween, especially this early in the day and this early in the game. I've already voted for three or four people thus far. Sooner or later I'll make a final decision on who I feel is most likely to be scum. Until then, I vote pretty haphazardly as a matter of principle.
Ok.
It appears that he was making a lot of mistakes commonly attributable to beginning players who are scum. To that extent, I agree with Tordeck. Cythare was being overly flustered even from the start, was grasping for rationales to explain himself when no one was asking for them, apologizing for decisions that warrant no apologies, etc. However, at the same time, a player who has never played before would make similar mistakes, town or scum. He's made a lot of serious play mistakes. What I'm not certain of at this point is that said play mistakes are scum tells.
Can you quote the part where his mistakes are noob SCUM mistakes? Like I've said, I see noob tells... nothing scummy.
Probably so. However, I don't like the whole assumption that I or anyone else is going to know what is meant by a "basic" if they've never played here before.
My apologies. I took for granted that complexity in mafia was uniform on all sites.
Basics are low complexity. Most common setup is something like Doc-Cop on town and RB on scum. Rest Vanilla. 10-2 is unlikely in this complexity of a game.
Reasonable given the evidence before me that you present. I personally feel like you're twisting words around to make me look guilty, but that's kind of the point here.
What words have I twisted?
I'm saying that it would be difficult to accept his results with any credibility. I'm also doubly saying that a vigilante has the potential to be extremely dangerous to the town in the case that they go shooting off someone random night 1.
It's difficult to accept an unCC'd cop or vig result with any credibility? The lack of a CC on a power role is credible enough.
I think you're misconstruing my words here. I'm not asking Cythare to claim anything at this point. I'm looking at hypotheticals and trying to do some Bayesian analysis to determine the best outcome for town as a whole. I'm saying "Given Cythare is X role", what does that mean for the town, and how does it fare for us versus lynching someone else.
Never said you were asking him to claim. I was simply saying that the mindset is a scummy one, as doc's are easier to kill at night than during the day, whereas vig and cop are easier to kill during the day given doc protection.
Directing? No. Offering my personal ideas on what to do under different scenarios? Yes, I am taking the unreasonable step of offering my advice on where town PR's might want to investigate/protect. Also, the harshness here does make me feel a little indignant.
Telling a PR where to target is directing. And it wasn't meant to be harsh. It was meant with an "Really? REALLY?" tone behind it.
Not doing so certainly doesn't get him here.
Not doing a lot of things doesn't get anything done. But I guess I take your meaning.
I won't quote DJ's huge post, but I will ask this:
DJ: Why do you thing Cythare and Drifting are scum together?
I also want to see the answer to his question regarding Atog and Cythare being scum together.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The forum marks "new posts" with a red page-shaped icon in the upper left corner, and "old posts" with a similar blue icon.
Doesn't work correctly. There are 6 new posts between the last time I looked (when I made my previous post) and when I started reading this morning. Only the last one is marked orange. All the others are blue-grey marked.
IEverything considered I think I shall go with a Vote Drifting Skies
I would much rather vote DS over Cy, as I believe more can be revealed from further interactions today.
I like your case against DS. His posts have been bugging me, but I only pointed out the one where he "prepped" us for his anti-Town behavior of haphazard voting. That was the only one I could really put my finger on as to why it bugged me. But your case brought it all together very nicely.
I'm onboard with lynching Atogaholic. Sorry for my lack of content, it's been rough. I just put in for replacement, so hopefully you will get a more active player soon.
I'll keep playing to the best of my ability until a replacement shows up.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Have we been playing the same game? Its pretty obvious that with every post he makes that Cy is noob scum trapped and flailing to find a way out.
I can perfectly understand having difficulty in articulating exactly why you find someone scummy. I can often look at a post and know it is scummy as hell, yet be unable to clearly express just what specifically I found scummy in it.
That said, when your entire argument against someone is "everything they say is scummy", well, I'm sorry but you'll have to do better than that!
I don't think it at all unreasonable for k-j to ask for a couple of examples.
Anyway, I don't think at this point that there's anything I can do to convince you that I'm town at this point, so I will refrain from addressing the allegations before me. I don't see it doing me any good at this point to try to talk my way out of this - my fast and loose play style has been pretty clearly read as one series of scum tells after another, and I don't think I could say anything that would convince anyone that I'm town at this point.
With that said, I'm going to give my thoughts on the matter, so that when I flip town after you guys lynch (or vig) me, you'll know where I stand on the issues.
First, Ahlyis's most recent post bugs me. He says that several of the things I've said have bugged him, but he's not at all sure what those things are until someone else makes the case against me. This appears to me to be fishing for a good reason to lynch me, as though he's previously made up his mind that I'm who he wants to lynch. While the end result is valid given the evidence against me, the way he predicates this bothers me. This suggests a hidden agenda, and therefore scum.
Deathjoey and Kill-Joy raised pretty substantial cases against me. As much as I would hate to admit it, the arguments against me have substantial merit, and as I said before, I'm thinking I'm past the point where I can convince my fellow townies that I'm indeed not the scum you are looking for. Deathjoey is leaning more town to me given his strong predication against me even after I've tried to explain myself, while Kill-Joy seemed to waver a bit and accept my responses, at least partially. This fencesitting is a bit suspicious, but I think he's trying to give me the benefit of the doubt.
Atogoholic is someone I'm not completely sure about, but I think he's more town at this point. Megiddo, on the other hand, does seem to be tying Cythare and Atog together pretty hard. I'm suspicious of this. He ties them together, busses Cythare, and then comes back and lynches Atog tomorrow and all seems well and good for team scum.
Tordeck hasn't really said anything other than "Cythare is n00b scum, lynch him". This also suggests bussing. Albus hasn't really said all that much, so I can't really read him either way.
Anyway, right now, I'm going to Vote: Ahlyis, since post 121 up there just screams "fish for a lynch reason".
Obviously, it's not going to do me any good to say I'm town - I'd say that regardless of my alignment, but clearly, only way you're going to be able to verify that I'm town is by lynching me. If you do decide to hang me, I hope you guys take my analysis into consideration when you guys vote tomorrow.
tl;dr: I think Tordeck, Ahlyis, Kill-Joy, Megiddo, and Cythare are more likely scum at this point, while Deathjoey and Atog are more town. I have next to no read on Voxxicus, Shinen, or Curious, and Albus hasn't said anything of note yet. I'll go back and give an analysis of those other three after I go re-read their posts.
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Anyway, I don't think at this point that there's anything I can do to convince you that I'm town at this point, so I will refrain from addressing the allegations before me. I don't see it doing me any good at this point to try to talk my way out of this - my fast and loose play style has been pretty clearly read as one series of scum tells after another, and I don't think I could say anything that would convince anyone that I'm town at this point.
...
Deathjoey and Kill-Joy raised pretty substantial cases against me. As much as I would hate to admit it, the arguments against me have substantial merit, and as I said before, I'm thinking I'm past the point where I can convince my fellow townies that I'm indeed not the scum you are looking for.
...
Obviously, it's not going to do me any good to say I'm town - I'd say that regardless of my alignment, but clearly, only way you're going to be able to verify that I'm town is by lynching me.
First, Ahlyis's most recent post bugs me. He says that several of the things I've said have bugged him, but he's not at all sure what those things are until someone else makes the case against me. This appears to me to be fishing for a good reason to lynch me, as though he's previously made up his mind that I'm who he wants to lynch. While the end result is valid given the evidence against me, the way he predicates this bothers me. This suggests a hidden agenda, and therefore scum.
Aw, you caught me. I mean, it's not like I had flagged any of your posts before or brought up anything against you previously. I just up and jumped on a new bandwagon without ever providing any of my own reasons. Yep, you caught me.
[font='Georgia']I wanted to chime back in since a lot seems to have happened today. First off, I want to say that it's been really interesting getting a better sense of the politics of Mafia. As this is my first game, I didn't even realize the implications of the language I was using, and looking back on all of your analyses, want to thank everyone for the learning experience. Moving on...
I don't see where this makes sense to say. I'm guessing it was supposed to be a pun on the game flavor?
That was just a pun on the game flavor. Megiddo accused Atog of mudslinging, so I just responded with something flavorful.
At this point, k-j seems more town to me, and I'm on the fence about Meg, with a lean towards town, and similar with Atog. I'm personally skeptical of Tordeck, because he was quick to judge me and took a while to give reasons beyond "his posts reek of noob scum" without further reasons given, but I'm not sure yet, because I really don't have enough experience to analyze this fully yet, and he hasn't contributed too much else to the conversation yet to indicate his own alignment.
I'm also skeptical about Drifting Skies, but this has already been discussed a ton and I'd just be repeating others' thoughts. Since he's already received a lot of votes, though, and it's pretty early on, I'm going to refrain from voting for him.
Having trouble fully articulating my thoughts on this mess.
Drifting Skies feels vaguely defeatist town to me, though it could be an attempt to come across that way as scum, sure.
Think I'm happier with Cythare vote for the time being - I do agree that the tells that have been expressed are more new!tells than scum!tells, but new!town and new!scum feel different to me in a way that is hard to explain.
It's a mindset kind of thing, and I can't help but think we're looking at new scum here.
The last post is better, sure, but handwaving away the stuff that happened with 'moving on...' is eh.
I can see Atogaholic/Cythare scum.
The only thing that makes me a little hesitant to lynch Cythare is how little we learn from it, really - almost everyone that votes for him could be town or scum bussing, given how bad the initial post(s) was/were, and it'll be difficult to distinguish.
But there's not necessarily a vig in a basic, if I'm understanding things correctly.
Having trouble fully articulating my thoughts on this mess.
Drifting Skies feels vaguely defeatist town to me, though it could be an attempt to come across that way as scum, sure.
Think I'm happier with Cythare vote for the time being - I do agree that the tells that have been expressed are more new!tells than scum!tells, but new!town and new!scum feel different to me in a way that is hard to explain.
It's a mindset kind of thing, and I can't help but think we're looking at new scum here.
The last post is better, sure, but handwaving away the stuff that happened with 'moving on...' is eh.
I can see Atogaholic/Cythare scum.
The only thing that makes me a little hesitant to lynch Cythare is how little we learn from it, really - almost everyone that votes for him could be town or scum bussing, given how bad the initial post(s) was/were, and it'll be difficult to distinguish.
But there's not necessarily a vig in a basic, if I'm understanding things correctly.
In conclusion: meh.
My "moving on..." just meant that I was moving on from the thanking everyone for helping enlighten me on how to hopefully be less nooby in future games, but I do realize that it was also dismissive of my previous posts. That said, the damage has been done, and anything else that I really say doesn't help my case, since I'm either:
a) Ignoring it - possibly scummy behavior, or
b) Backpedaling again - even more scummy behavior
Maybe moving forward, I'll be able to convince people I'm not scum; otherwise, I've learned from my mistakes and know how not to handle myself in my second Mafia game.
I mentioned it briefly, but sure. Of the 4 times Tordeck posted before my vote, one of them was somewhat unrelated - it was in response to The Most Curious Thing giving me some advice while he thought out loud - and the other 3 were votes for me or short responses that provided little insight into his thoughts. He says I'm "definitely noob scum" and that it's "obvious that I'm noob scum trapped and flailing", but doesn't provide any detail beyond a one liner that continually points a finger at me. Maybe my actions really do seem that obvious, but this to me seems like pretty scummy behavior in and of itself. I can't really explain it in too much more detail than that, because he hasn't provided much more content to act on besides "OMGUS is OMGUS".
Anyway, I don't think at this point that there's anything I can do to convince you that I'm town at this point, so I will refrain from addressing the allegations before me. I don't see it doing me any good at this point to try to talk my way out of this - my fast and loose play style has been pretty clearly read as one series of scum tells after another, and I don't think I could say anything that would convince anyone that I'm town at this point.
Defeatist, and appealing for pity?
Why aren't you all indignant about this case being presented, and trying to address my points?
With that said, I'm going to give my thoughts on the matter, so that when I flip town after you guys lynch (or vig) me, you'll know where I stand on the issues.
First, Ahlyis's most recent post bugs me. He says that several of the things I've said have bugged him, but he's not at all sure what those things are until someone else makes the case against me. This appears to me to be fishing for a good reason to lynch me, as though he's previously made up his mind that I'm who he wants to lynch. While the end result is valid given the evidence against me, the way he predicates this bothers me. This suggests a hidden agenda, and therefore scum.
An OMGUS on the first wagon hop that isn't accompanied by solid reasoning.
And hidden agenda means scum? Well... I certainly don't believe that's true.
Deathjoey and Kill-Joy raised pretty substantial cases against me. As much as I would hate to admit it, the arguments against me have substantial merit, and as I said before, I'm thinking I'm past the point where I can convince my fellow townies that I'm indeed not the scum you are looking for. Deathjoey is leaning more town to me given his strong predication against me even after I've tried to explain myself, while Kill-Joy seemed to waver a bit and accept my responses, at least partially. This fencesitting is a bit suspicious, but I think he's trying to give me the benefit of the doubt.
So you admit that our points ring true?
More defeatist attitude, and trying to appeal towards me, while slinging KJ.
Again, if you were town, why aren't you trying to explain yourself?
Atogoholic is someone I'm not completely sure about, but I think he's more town at this point. Megiddo, on the other hand, does seem to be tying Cythare and Atog together pretty hard. I'm suspicious of this. He ties them together, busses Cythare, and then comes back and lynches Atog tomorrow and all seems well and good for team scum.
Deflecting.
So provide quotes where this has happened, and which quotes make you think this way.
Tordeck hasn't really said anything other than "Cythare is n00b scum, lynch him". This also suggests bussing. Albus hasn't really said all that much, so I can't really read him either way.
Tordeck may have a hidden agenda, may be bussing, or may have some other purpose. Null tell.
Obviously, it's not going to do me any good to say I'm town - I'd say that regardless of my alignment, but clearly, only way you're going to be able to verify that I'm town is by lynching me. If you do decide to hang me, I hope you guys take my analysis into consideration when you guys vote tomorrow.
tl;dr: I think Tordeck, Ahlyis, Kill-Joy, Megiddo, and Cythare are more likely scum at this point, while Deathjoey and Atog are more town. I have next to no read on Voxxicus, Shinen, or Curious, and Albus hasn't said anything of note yet. I'll go back and give an analysis of those other three after I go re-read their posts.
The only thing that makes me a little hesitant to lynch Cythare is how little we learn from it, really - almost everyone that votes for him could be town or scum bussing, given how bad the initial post(s) was/were, and it'll be difficult to distinguish.
Yes, we don't learn much from it.
Do you see Ato and Cyth as scum together? or individually scummy people?
What have you seen that makes you think this way?
But there's not necessarily a vig in a basic, if I'm understanding things correctly.
In conclusion: meh.
Not necessarily.
Just all speculation at this point.
@Cythare Did you read my last (first) post?
There are a lot of points concerning you, and I'd like for you to comment on some of them.
It's a huge read, but I promise it's worth it.
@Cythare Did you read my last (first) post?
There are a lot of points concerning you, and I'd like for you to comment on some of them.
It's a huge read, but I promise it's worth it.
I read part of it, but it was pretty dense, and I didn't have enough time to digest it and respond to your post and share my other thoughts. Now that I do, I'd be more than happy to comment.
I can't tell if this is a slip, or just poorly thought out.
To me, it reads as if Cythare is admitting they are both scum and he thinks he's being set up for a bus.
At the very least, it seems a very odd choice of phrasing for a Townie.
^ Another thing to remember.
I never really responded to this, but this was mainly said because even though Atog was defending me, I wasn't convinced he was being altruistic. Regardless of whether it was a slip or not, it was a poorly thought out choice of words anyways. That was my way of saying that maybe he was trying to hide behind me, which I wasn't sure of at the time.
There is the possibility that this is just a flustered townie who doesn't know how to respond under pressure. However, in that scenario, most of his credibility as town is gone and I'm not sure he's particularly beneficial for the town in either case.
We do still have two more people who need to weigh in though, and I would prefer not to lynch until they have made some statement or another about their thoughts on the game.
Did you not think of this possibility earlier?
What substantial further evidenced arrised in the 2 posts between your posts that caused this change in opinion?
Looks like you're backing off to gauge opinions, and to try get others to see him as harmless. Fencesitting hard here.
I also agree here. Whether or not you agree with Drifting Skies' logic, considering me as a flustered townie is an option that I would think would cross people's minds, even if they decide it's not the option they believe.
Yes, he -could- be town... but was there anything he said that indicated town POWER?
What is this crap. See kill-Joy's post for pretty much what I think.
Why do you assume town power?
Cool, so if he's vig, and we lynch him, we save ourselves a mis-vig. 1-for-1. Doesn't help that you're fearmongering to keep him alive.
You say if he's cop, he's not credible, and thus scum will leave him alone?
You repeated this argument before, and it looks like an effort to try get people off his back. Why?
Doc, what? Based on behaviour patterns? What wifom is this.
Directing cops, and then asking for the cop to out himself tomorrow to clear him? And then, wifom in the form of a cop claim?
I realize this quote is in reference to two posts, but they're along the same lines. I found it interesting that conclusions were jumped to that if I'm town, I could be power (which I guess is technically true), and otherwise I'm scum. Tordeck did note that I could be either scum or vanilla townie, and either way there could be an advantage to lynching me, but others got locked in on the power thing. I'm too inexperienced to appreciate the actual advantages to power roles, but I thought it interesting that this is what caused some hesitation, as that train of thought could apply to anyone.
Are you asking if career tributes get weapons? Does that mean that you -DON'T- have a weapon?
So neither of you two have a weapon.
Can you two please explain?
Let the flavor games begin ;]
Noted briefly in a previous post that my post about the Cornucopia was flavor-oriented, but in the context of this Mafia, isn't the Career tribute -> weapon not necessarily true? I would imagine "having a weapon" means some sort of power role, so unless all Career players are power roles and few to no non-Careers have powers (which I assume would be unbalanced? again, not sure), this correlation to the flavor of the Hunger Games doesn't necessarily hold too much weight.
bunch of responses to Drifting Skies
I thought this was very well thought out, and also very compelling points to call out. Others have said similar things, but not in as compelling a way to me (or theirs just wasn't as much of a detail-oriented wall of text). It's pretty early on, and as I noted in post #132, I was hesitant to vote for DS because of the high number of votes for him already, but I am starting to agree with other people. I'm still wary of Tordeck, because he jumped in pretty early on with a vote for me without much explanation, but others had already talked about it at length, and maybe I shouldn't fault him for not showing his work
Sorry if I missed anything specific that you wanted me to address. As you admitted yourself, it was a pretty huge read, so if you still have anything you want me to weigh in on, feel free to ask.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Doesn't work correctly. There are 6 new posts between the last time I looked (when I made my previous post) and when I started reading this morning. Only the last one is marked orange. All the others are blue-grey marked.
Odd; it works fine for me. It is possible that you checked the thread briefly in the intervening time but forgot that you did so.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Feels like you kind of blatantly ignored the post after where Kill-joy acknowledged the ninja.
Don't really like that.
No, I did not. I'm pointing out that such an acknowledgement falls a little flat when his supposedly 'nathed post is ten minutes after the one that beat him to the punch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Final voting decision? This reads like you only intend to make one vote today. Can you clarify?
You have reason to believe Cythare isn't scum? All the tells I've seen from him up to this point are noob or null. Not town or scum specific. Can you point out what makes you believe he's not scum at that point?
I take it "derpy doo" means wrong. That's fine if you're saying he's wrong... But... why do you follow it up with threatening to call him scum if he continues that line of thought?
Also, can you quote where he's mudslinging up to that point? I find 'chief mudslinger', especially at that point, to be an exaggeration.
FTR, I agree that Megiddo is likely wrong about Cathare at that point. I have my own reasons for thinking this, but would like to hear yours.
I don't see where this makes sense to say. I'm guessing it was supposed to be a pun on the game flavor?
Hm. +town for Megiddo.
In the event that Cythare is town, is "defending" him and tying himself to him in this case still scummy?
He's new, not stupid. Why do you think anyone would out themselves and a buddy as scum simply because they think they're being bussed?
What does this question accomplish? How will his answer tell you anything about his alignment?
Reasons, please? What specifically has lead you to vote Cy instead of Atog? Why do you think Cy and Atog are scummy?
Sidebar: I really, really, REALLY don't like language tells. Sure, verbiage can give you insight into someone's mindset. But it's less reliable than people think.
Anyway, back to the game.
What assessment? What reasons did he give that you agree with? (Hint: He didn't give any reasons, so there's really no assessment to agree with).
Why do you agree with him on his votes?
That's a WHOLE lotta WIFOM. What reason do you have to assume he's a town power role at all?
If he flips a town power role, that sucks, sure. But... then if he get's lynched Day 1, he played scummy enough for the town to lynch him in the first place.
Re: the italicized bit: Deer in headlights is just as likely noob town as noob caught scum. Why did you come to the conclusion that he's Town based on that evidence?
This is a Basic. It won't be that complicated. It's MOST likely there's 9-3 with some power roles thrown in. Barring flips to the contrary, it's best to assume that.
Vote Drifting Skies
FOS Atog
I was gonna vote Atog until I saw this. If he claims vig or cop... you're saying you wouldn't accept it? That's just not a townie mindset. If someone claims PR, barring HUGE evidence against them, you accept it. Huge evidence includes CC, or proof that their role isn't in the game. Or proof that they didn't do thier job overnight.
This is also not a town mindset. The only claim he will accept is a doc claim, which means scum get to NK the doc that night. Cop or vig is harder to NK with the threat of Doc protection.
And you're directing PRs???
And... this does what? If he's not here, you really think voting for him's gonna get him here?
I am a little wary of the speed of the wagon here.
It's in my blog in my sig.
You choaching a player who is at a legitimate l-2 to not claim? Yeah your next to hang.
@Skies - dont modgame. especially in a gorram basic.
That and the one
L-2 is claim range on this site. And whats the worst that happens. two scum come in and try a quick hammer. Great we just caught the next two lynches and ride this to win town.
Most of the regulars have it either in their sig or their blog here on Sally. If they dont you can assume they are fairly new.
The Family
1. yes duh. Except for that last part.
2. I was agreeing with you up here.
This is such a bizarre post. You say a bunch of super obvious things that have no bearing on the game state. Yes, any of us could be power roles. Cythare could be a PR. He could be vanilla. He could be scum.
Deer in the headlights? Sure. But that doesn't mean you just pull back and look elsewhere! We are voting him for a reason. Are you expecting the scum to just up and claim scum? Doesn't happen that way. Cythare made posts that indicate he may be noob scum, as tordeck has pointed out. We are applying pressure on him because of this.
You are now fearmongering to protect Cythare. Why? Do you know something we do not about Cythare?
1. Thanks for claiming vanilla.
1b. ...Or you could be scum trying too hard to pretend you don't know about the setup.
2. This entire post is garbage. I tried to read it to get something to say but you're literally just saying words. Maybe we should wait for cythare to claim before speculating on the first to-be-revealed role in the game???
3. I also like how you go from "THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY PRs" to "THE COP SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIM." Like, what???
Already addressed this, but I want to reiterate that this is more drivel.
...because the logical step when we think we have caught scum is to have that person claim?
Already hit this but:
1. That is a legitimate concern, which explains some but not all of your garbage posts. I'll give you a pass on the weird brake-slamming post because of this meta business.
2. Again, you're assigning a mentality to me that isn't there. Words in my mouth. Why?
1. I second the recommendation to see a mental health professional if you are experiencing suicidal ideation.
2. keep posting please.
I wanted to keep going but I can only handle so much at once.
I've been preparing a larger post covering what's happened so far. Expect that around Sunday. This week is rather chaotic for me.
By gads you're right! If all you did was merely ask him a question, then that wouldn't be slamming at all! I mean, its not like you said he was scum or anything!
/slam
Let me get this right. You are attacking me for defending cythare?
I'll take that as a yes.
What you are saying here is that a player should never defend another player, because that player could and should have spoken for themself. What??
Now there is a difference between defending another player and answering questions for them. The latter is scummy, the former isn't. Don't confuse these.
There were two other players who posted before me agreeing with you that cythare was acting suspicious. One of them even voted. Then I posted, disagreeing with you. You can't go after people just because they disagree with you.
Neither of your reasons for attacking me are particularly strong.
Let's start with this part first:
I am not tying myself to cythare. You sir are the person who is trying to tie cythare and me together.
All I have said before concerning cythare was the post saying that I didn't think the argument against him was very good.
You have been tying us together from the beginning, starting with this post:
You then started adding to this with quips like:
No one is tying me and cythare together, except for megiddo.
1. I'm not the one reframing the game's events.
2. You don't need my help to look bad.
Ok thanks for the advice. Lets see what other helpful comments you can offer.
This post reads kinda confusing-like, but what I get from it is that you correctly peg me as a townie who is looking for scum among the people going after cythare, ok cool.
Whoa nellie that was a fast 180, I think I even felt a breeze. You posted this 3 minutes after that that first post, lol.
Just putting this out there as another example of Meg trying to tie me and cythare together.
So apparently our glorious overlord is a merciful one!
You guys really shouldn't put too much credence into what megiddo says.
Who gets their weapons from the Conucopia? Career tributes. I want to be suspicious of this, but that would be flavorgaming and that would be wrong.
Jesus you really have a thing for bad word choices do you.
Why is it that every time I read this it reads as newbscum.
There's this tying thing again.
Oh my my RVS vote is still up. Unvote meg. However, I am going to FoS meg for twisting situations in order to attack me / trying to get me tied to cythare.
And in a shocking turn of events, megiddo, yes megidoo, says something sensible! There's a reason claim range is at L-2 guys, its so that the town can get as close as possible to a lynch to threaten someone while still being far enough so as not to be in danger of a quicklynch. This town is perfectly capable of *not* quicklynching someone, and I think everybody here agrees that we need to wait for everyone to weigh in before rushing into anything.
This is not a good reason to not lynch somebody. He could be doc yes, but for all we know there is no doc and he's just scum. This is borderline modgaming and fearmongering. Please stop.
I am a beginner, and I have completed one other game off-site.
No no no no. Megiddo has been blowing my "defense" of cythare way out of proportion. All I did was take objection to the fact that cythare was already drawing flak after the first post he made in mafia ever. Remember when I said that cythare had only made that one post and hadn't started leaking suspicion yet.
"Derpy doo" means he's being dumb, I was taking offense to the fact that he was calling cythare scum already. Mudslinging was when he tied cythare and me together in a fantasy scumteam, then accused me of actively defending cythare while actively attacking him, then accused me of mudslinging. Yes, apparently Shedinja *can* learn muddy water!
Orly? I'm "bodyguarding" now?
Post #79 was an unnecessarily poor and aggressive post (and it ironically reads like a deer-in-the-headlights post in retrospect). Posts #89-95 should settle the matter. I was irrationally worried about a Cythare lynch so early in the Day and fearmongered the thought that we could be lynching a town PR, which is obvious and didn't need to be stated in the first place.
I was concerned about the possibility of Albus and Deathjoey hammering Cythare when they hadn't even posted in the thread yet.
Tordeck and Atog have corrected me on this:
I wanted them, and Atog, to weigh in before I (or the rest of the town) did anything rash. And that itself was irrational.
Sorry for turning all of you into de facto mentors
Nothing. What it tells me is his analysis of other players, which is relevant especially if we were to lynch him and he flipped town (or, for that matter, if he flipped mafia-but that would be mostly wifom so its use would be debatable.)
Also in this post but not relevant enough to re-quote: You mention disliking language gaming, but start the post with calling someone out based on it.
I've got something like 2-3 games on here, but they're from the very beginning of my experience with mafia. I can dig them up if people would like, but I don't know how helpful they'd be.
That being said, I'd consider myself middling amount of experience.
I do what I can.
Yes, that's what I meant by that post. Assuming you are experienced (Basically not extremely new) you read to me like you're attempting to find out who has a legitimate vote on Cythare and who is simply scum. The next post is specifically in the case of you being very new to the game; its a newb scum mistake to tie yourself, even a little, to other scum.
Also, just to reiterate what everyone else has said so far, I'd really like to see what Deathjoey thinks of all of this before it gets even further out of control.
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
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I throw fingers and votes around like candy at Halloween, especially this early in the day and this early in the game. I've already voted for three or four people thus far. Sooner or later I'll make a final decision on who I feel is most likely to be scum. Until then, I vote pretty haphazardly as a matter of principle.
It appears that he was making a lot of mistakes commonly attributable to beginning players who are scum. To that extent, I agree with Tordeck. Cythare was being overly flustered even from the start, was grasping for rationales to explain himself when no one was asking for them, apologizing for decisions that warrant no apologies, etc. However, at the same time, a player who has never played before would make similar mistakes, town or scum. He's made a lot of serious play mistakes. What I'm not certain of at this point is that said play mistakes are scum tells.
Probably so. However, I don't like the whole assumption that I or anyone else is going to know what is meant by a "basic" if they've never played here before.
Reasonable given the evidence before me that you present. I personally feel like you're twisting words around to make me look guilty, but that's kind of the point here.
I'm saying that it would be difficult to accept his results with any credibility. I'm also doubly saying that a vigilante has the potential to be extremely dangerous to the town in the case that they go shooting off someone random night 1.
I think you're misconstruing my words here. I'm not asking Cythare to claim anything at this point. I'm looking at hypotheticals and trying to do some Bayesian analysis to determine the best outcome for town as a whole. I'm saying "Given Cythare is X role", what does that mean for the town, and how does it fare for us versus lynching someone else.
Directing? No. Offering my personal ideas on what to do under different scenarios? Yes, I am taking the unreasonable step of offering my advice on where town PR's might want to investigate/protect. Also, the harshness here does make me feel a little indignant.
Not doing so certainly doesn't get him here.
I would rate myself among the worst players that I know. My behavioral analysis is pretty poor and I'm only decent when I can do a thorough role analysis, something that this sort of setup isn't conducive to.
1) Not a problem.
1b) Obviously, there's only two ways to conclusively show that I'm town. One involves my neck in a noose and the other involves using a cop's ability. I'd rather lynch and investigate scum, so I don't think I can come out and "prove" I'm town.
2) Again, hypotheticals about what possibilities there are in the game. That I speculate out loud is probably me making a n00b mistake. To that end, there's little I can do to address your concerns.
3) I've got nothing either.
1) Thanks. A lot of the so-called garbage posts are my way of trying to keep the flow of the game from stalling out. I really don't want to wait a week before the game picks up the game. Call me impatient.
2) As I see it, you were (still are to some extent) placing a lot of pressure on Cythare while simultaneously acknowledging that n00b town and n00b scum make a lot of the same mistakes. It's just as likely that he'll cave and be found town as being found scum, if not more so, under this pretense. Assume for the sake of argument here for a moment that Cythare is town - What would it take in this hypothetical world to convince you that Cythare is, in fact, town? If the answer is that nothing would, then you've placed him in a bind where his words will be twisted (by you) to make him look scummy no matter what. That's something I find a little bit suspicious, hence my FoS on you.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
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Legacy:
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Votes and vote analysis are two of the strongest tools that Town has in their favor. Saying you are intentionally making any analysis of your votes meaningless is like saying you are intentionally acting anti-Town!
I hesitate to call it "scummy", but it is definitely anti-Town behavior.
The forum marks "new posts" with a red page-shaped icon in the upper left corner, and "old posts" with a similar blue icon.
I have edited the OP with a rule forbidding thanking posts by players or spectators.
are you ok with lynching Cythare yes or no?
I'm getting more convinced that I'm correct here.
That strange symbol happens to be Tokien's Mark.
Just noting this post, as others have analysed the **** out of it already.
Why does this look like coaching?
^ Another thing to remember.
Busbusbus.
Why do you need to say you agree with his assessment, only to reinforce your vote on Cythare?
Did you not think of this possibility earlier?
What substantial further evidenced arrised in the 2 posts between your posts that caused this change in opinion?
Looks like you're backing off to gauge opinions, and to try get others to see him as harmless. Fencesitting hard here.
I don't even.
Yes, he -could- be town... but was there anything he said that indicated town POWER?
What is this crap. See kill-Joy's post for pretty much what I think.
Why do you assume town power?
Cool, so if he's vig, and we lynch him, we save ourselves a mis-vig. 1-for-1. Doesn't help that you're fearmongering to keep him alive.
You say if he's cop, he's not credible, and thus scum will leave him alone?
You repeated this argument before, and it looks like an effort to try get people off his back. Why?
Doc, what? Based on behaviour patterns? What wifom is this.
Directing cops, and then asking for the cop to out himself tomorrow to clear him? And then, wifom in the form of a cop claim?
^
I'd like to ask why Cy -AND- Atog are scummy, together.
Ahh Kill-joy, this post is pure awesome.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one who see's this about D_S
Yes, this is a basic... but it's an AI basic xDD
Yes, I agree with this statement, yet I don't agree that you should just ignore everything they say, just because they disagreed with you, or called you scum
Are you asking if career tributes get weapons? Does that mean that you -DON'T- have a weapon?
So neither of you two have a weapon.
Can you two please explain?
Let the flavor games begin ;]
Are you trying to distance yourself from him?
Haphazardly as a matter of principle? What principle?
Is the a per-emptive cover of future wagon hops?
Again, contrary to your original view, you now say that you're not sure he's scum?
Wait, he never said anything about you asking Cythare to claim something...
or in other words... directing?
So you find it suspicious, that he would find Cythare, both Noob town, and noob scum.
Cy, who Is/was at L-2 with YOUR VOTE on the wagon at the time, and the very same Cythare who you are now trying to paint as noob town?
Everything considered I think I shall go with a Vote Drifting Skies
I would much rather vote DS over Cy, as I believe more can be revealed from further interactions today.
Hey. Hey you. Reasons pl0x.
I could follow it alright, but when you do the 1. 2. thing, can you put corresponding numbers in the quote? Just for ease of reading?
Ok. What do you think of Drifting Skies?
Ok.
Ok
Ok.
Re: language gaming: I differentiate between questioning a person's verbiage and saying "this person said this, when he should have said THIS". Asking to determine intent and inferring it outright are different, and the latter is what I have a problem with. It's not scummy, it's a fault in logic that could happen to anyone. But ever since I noticed myself doing it inadvertently in my early mafia career, I've taken a dislike to it.
Ok.
Can you quote the part where his mistakes are noob SCUM mistakes? Like I've said, I see noob tells... nothing scummy.
My apologies. I took for granted that complexity in mafia was uniform on all sites.
Basics are low complexity. Most common setup is something like Doc-Cop on town and RB on scum. Rest Vanilla. 10-2 is unlikely in this complexity of a game.
What words have I twisted?
It's difficult to accept an unCC'd cop or vig result with any credibility? The lack of a CC on a power role is credible enough.
Never said you were asking him to claim. I was simply saying that the mindset is a scummy one, as doc's are easier to kill at night than during the day, whereas vig and cop are easier to kill during the day given doc protection.
Telling a PR where to target is directing. And it wasn't meant to be harsh. It was meant with an "Really? REALLY?" tone behind it.
Not doing a lot of things doesn't get anything done. But I guess I take your meaning.
I won't quote DJ's huge post, but I will ask this:
DJ: Why do you thing Cythare and Drifting are scum together?
I also want to see the answer to his question regarding Atog and Cythare being scum together.
Doesn't work correctly. There are 6 new posts between the last time I looked (when I made my previous post) and when I started reading this morning. Only the last one is marked orange. All the others are blue-grey marked.
So be it.
I like your case against DS. His posts have been bugging me, but I only pointed out the one where he "prepped" us for his anti-Town behavior of haphazard voting. That was the only one I could really put my finger on as to why it bugged me. But your case brought it all together very nicely.
Vote: Drifting Skies
I'll keep playing to the best of my ability until a replacement shows up.
Have we been playing the same game? Its pretty obvious that with every post he makes that Cy is noob scum trapped and flailing to find a way out.
The Family
I can perfectly understand having difficulty in articulating exactly why you find someone scummy. I can often look at a post and know it is scummy as hell, yet be unable to clearly express just what specifically I found scummy in it.
That said, when your entire argument against someone is "everything they say is scummy", well, I'm sorry but you'll have to do better than that!
I don't think it at all unreasonable for k-j to ask for a couple of examples.
Anyway, I don't think at this point that there's anything I can do to convince you that I'm town at this point, so I will refrain from addressing the allegations before me. I don't see it doing me any good at this point to try to talk my way out of this - my fast and loose play style has been pretty clearly read as one series of scum tells after another, and I don't think I could say anything that would convince anyone that I'm town at this point.
With that said, I'm going to give my thoughts on the matter, so that when I flip town after you guys lynch (or vig) me, you'll know where I stand on the issues.
First, Ahlyis's most recent post bugs me. He says that several of the things I've said have bugged him, but he's not at all sure what those things are until someone else makes the case against me. This appears to me to be fishing for a good reason to lynch me, as though he's previously made up his mind that I'm who he wants to lynch. While the end result is valid given the evidence against me, the way he predicates this bothers me. This suggests a hidden agenda, and therefore scum.
Deathjoey and Kill-Joy raised pretty substantial cases against me. As much as I would hate to admit it, the arguments against me have substantial merit, and as I said before, I'm thinking I'm past the point where I can convince my fellow townies that I'm indeed not the scum you are looking for. Deathjoey is leaning more town to me given his strong predication against me even after I've tried to explain myself, while Kill-Joy seemed to waver a bit and accept my responses, at least partially. This fencesitting is a bit suspicious, but I think he's trying to give me the benefit of the doubt.
Atogoholic is someone I'm not completely sure about, but I think he's more town at this point. Megiddo, on the other hand, does seem to be tying Cythare and Atog together pretty hard. I'm suspicious of this. He ties them together, busses Cythare, and then comes back and lynches Atog tomorrow and all seems well and good for team scum.
Tordeck hasn't really said anything other than "Cythare is n00b scum, lynch him". This also suggests bussing. Albus hasn't really said all that much, so I can't really read him either way.
Anyway, right now, I'm going to Vote: Ahlyis, since post 121 up there just screams "fish for a lynch reason".
Obviously, it's not going to do me any good to say I'm town - I'd say that regardless of my alignment, but clearly, only way you're going to be able to verify that I'm town is by lynching me. If you do decide to hang me, I hope you guys take my analysis into consideration when you guys vote tomorrow.
tl;dr: I think Tordeck, Ahlyis, Kill-Joy, Megiddo, and Cythare are more likely scum at this point, while Deathjoey and Atog are more town. I have next to no read on Voxxicus, Shinen, or Curious, and Albus hasn't said anything of note yet. I'll go back and give an analysis of those other three after I go re-read their posts.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
That's awfully defeatist for a townie at L-4.
Vote Drifting Skies
you know, the one whose alignment would support your suspicions on multiple players?
Aw, you caught me. I mean, it's not like I had flagged any of your posts before or brought up anything against you previously. I just up and jumped on a new bandwagon without ever providing any of my own reasons. Yep, you caught me.
/sarcasm
That last post I just cannot make heads or tails of.
That was just a pun on the game flavor. Megiddo accused Atog of mudslinging, so I just responded with something flavorful.
At this point, k-j seems more town to me, and I'm on the fence about Meg, with a lean towards town, and similar with Atog. I'm personally skeptical of Tordeck, because he was quick to judge me and took a while to give reasons beyond "his posts reek of noob scum" without further reasons given, but I'm not sure yet, because I really don't have enough experience to analyze this fully yet, and he hasn't contributed too much else to the conversation yet to indicate his own alignment.
I'm also skeptical about Drifting Skies, but this has already been discussed a ton and I'd just be repeating others' thoughts. Since he's already received a lot of votes, though, and it's pretty early on, I'm going to refrain from voting for him.
For now, Vote: Tordeck
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
vote stays where its at
The Family
Drifting Skies feels vaguely defeatist town to me, though it could be an attempt to come across that way as scum, sure.
Think I'm happier with Cythare vote for the time being - I do agree that the tells that have been expressed are more new!tells than scum!tells, but new!town and new!scum feel different to me in a way that is hard to explain.
It's a mindset kind of thing, and I can't help but think we're looking at new scum here.
The last post is better, sure, but handwaving away the stuff that happened with 'moving on...' is eh.
I can see Atogaholic/Cythare scum.
The only thing that makes me a little hesitant to lynch Cythare is how little we learn from it, really - almost everyone that votes for him could be town or scum bussing, given how bad the initial post(s) was/were, and it'll be difficult to distinguish.
But there's not necessarily a vig in a basic, if I'm understanding things correctly.
In conclusion: meh.
My "moving on..." just meant that I was moving on from the thanking everyone for helping enlighten me on how to hopefully be less nooby in future games, but I do realize that it was also dismissive of my previous posts. That said, the damage has been done, and anything else that I really say doesn't help my case, since I'm either:
a) Ignoring it - possibly scummy behavior, or
b) Backpedaling again - even more scummy behavior
Maybe moving forward, I'll be able to convince people I'm not scum; otherwise, I've learned from my mistakes and know how not to handle myself in my second Mafia game.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I mentioned it briefly, but sure. Of the 4 times Tordeck posted before my vote, one of them was somewhat unrelated - it was in response to The Most Curious Thing giving me some advice while he thought out loud - and the other 3 were votes for me or short responses that provided little insight into his thoughts. He says I'm "definitely noob scum" and that it's "obvious that I'm noob scum trapped and flailing", but doesn't provide any detail beyond a one liner that continually points a finger at me. Maybe my actions really do seem that obvious, but this to me seems like pretty scummy behavior in and of itself. I can't really explain it in too much more detail than that, because he hasn't provided much more content to act on besides "OMGUS is OMGUS".
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Defeatist, and appealing for pity?
Why aren't you all indignant about this case being presented, and trying to address my points?
.___.
An OMGUS on the first wagon hop that isn't accompanied by solid reasoning.
And hidden agenda means scum? Well... I certainly don't believe that's true.
So you admit that our points ring true?
More defeatist attitude, and trying to appeal towards me, while slinging KJ.
Again, if you were town, why aren't you trying to explain yourself?
Deflecting.
So provide quotes where this has happened, and which quotes make you think this way.
Tordeck may have a hidden agenda, may be bussing, or may have some other purpose. Null tell.
OMGUS as seen above.
Why are you being so goddamn defeatist.
Reasoning.
Also this ^
Which part exactly makes you feel defeatist "Town" as opposed to defeatist "Scum"?
Yes, we don't learn much from it.
Do you see Ato and Cyth as scum together? or individually scummy people?
What have you seen that makes you think this way?
Not necessarily.
Just all speculation at this point.
@Cythare Did you read my last (first) post?
There are a lot of points concerning you, and I'd like for you to comment on some of them.
It's a huge read, but I promise it's worth it.
I read part of it, but it was pretty dense, and I didn't have enough time to digest it and respond to your post and share my other thoughts. Now that I do, I'd be more than happy to comment.
I never really responded to this, but this was mainly said because even though Atog was defending me, I wasn't convinced he was being altruistic. Regardless of whether it was a slip or not, it was a poorly thought out choice of words anyways. That was my way of saying that maybe he was trying to hide behind me, which I wasn't sure of at the time.
I also agree here. Whether or not you agree with Drifting Skies' logic, considering me as a flustered townie is an option that I would think would cross people's minds, even if they decide it's not the option they believe.
I realize this quote is in reference to two posts, but they're along the same lines. I found it interesting that conclusions were jumped to that if I'm town, I could be power (which I guess is technically true), and otherwise I'm scum. Tordeck did note that I could be either scum or vanilla townie, and either way there could be an advantage to lynching me, but others got locked in on the power thing. I'm too inexperienced to appreciate the actual advantages to power roles, but I thought it interesting that this is what caused some hesitation, as that train of thought could apply to anyone.
Noted briefly in a previous post that my post about the Cornucopia was flavor-oriented, but in the context of this Mafia, isn't the Career tribute -> weapon not necessarily true? I would imagine "having a weapon" means some sort of power role, so unless all Career players are power roles and few to no non-Careers have powers (which I assume would be unbalanced? again, not sure), this correlation to the flavor of the Hunger Games doesn't necessarily hold too much weight.
I thought this was very well thought out, and also very compelling points to call out. Others have said similar things, but not in as compelling a way to me (or theirs just wasn't as much of a detail-oriented wall of text). It's pretty early on, and as I noted in post #132, I was hesitant to vote for DS because of the high number of votes for him already, but I am starting to agree with other people. I'm still wary of Tordeck, because he jumped in pretty early on with a vote for me without much explanation, but others had already talked about it at length, and maybe I shouldn't fault him for not showing his work
Unvote Tordeck
Vote Drifting Skies
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Drifting Skies is now at L-1
UNVOTE
Unvote.. We don't want scum to quicklynch him to deprive us of info.
Claim please, Drifting Skies.
Drifting Skies (4): Ahlyis, The Most Curious Thing, Megiddo, Cythare
Cythare (3): Voxxicus, Tordeck, Shinen
Ahlyis (1): Drifting Skies
Not Voting (3): Albus, Atogaholic, Deathjoey, kill-joy
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Wednesday, September 5th.
Currently looking for a replacement for Albus; I will PM the replacement list in the morning if I don't hear from anyone before then.
Odd; it works fine for me. It is possible that you checked the thread briefly in the intervening time but forgot that you did so.
Yes, but I'm not gonna try and read your mind. So, if it's for obvious reasons, then say so. Easy as pie.
10 minutes later...
Hm.
Feels like you kind of blatantly ignored the post after where Kill-joy acknowledged the ninja.
Don't really like that.
If you had focused on the
part of the post, it'd be a slightly different story. As I'd be pretty okay with a scum revealing themselves in such a manner!