quickness of wagon is not a count against the wagon. it is the early stage of the game, there is no availible evidence other than behavior and the avilible behavioral tells were used in the case, not sure where your hangup is.
Iso is not scummy enough for l-2. I already stated another behavior I find more scummier soooo.......?
You sure are eager for l-2 for early stage of the game there.
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mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
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That aside, I would like more people to comment on the Iso wagon. Preferably people who aren't involved in it. Outside perspective and all that. Albus and pinkys_brain in particular.
Your case on Iso has no logical backing. To put it as eloquently as I can, it's nonsense. Anyone can case anyone if they are looking for it, and cases as a whole are not terribly powerful tools. They lose any possibility of usefulness when they start on incorrect assumptions though.
This does NOT mean that your premise is incorrect. Evidence points to the likelihood of Iso being scum. Vote Iso If Iso is scum, Caex is almost certainly town.
Poggydude's exceptional bloodthirstyness and failed attempt at forcing the town to mass-claim on Day 1 have been noted. His lynch would be logical and is rapidly approaching inevitability.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
@pinkys_brain: Fair point on me, but that was not my intentions. At this point I really have nothing to much to contribute. Part of it, I feel like we spent way too much time discussing game mechanics. The other, a lot has happened in a short time so I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Iso wagon and the reasons for it.
I will say the quickness on Iso's wagon does bug me. It jumped to 5 before WoD caught himself and unvoted. Then Caex just unvotes after Albus puts it back to 5.
So either A: scum are jumping onto this wagon trying to push an easy lynch or B: scum are jumping off the wagon to keep it from reaching it.
I'll have more on this later when I can finally wrap my head on all the reasons people are pushing each way.
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"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
There's a mild bit of deflection in this post. You try to defend yourself with some WiFoM, admit you wanted to know what E_P was thinking, then at the end you say "Oh, plus check out that Albus guy" but without anything to back it up with.
I'm thinking you just wanted to start a new thread of conversation to syphon attention from you to Albus.
Admittedly it's not a strong enough "deflection" for me to have called you out on it. But as we continue, they pile up.
So...what didn't I address?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
Let's keep going:
I provide a reason for why you "asked" E_P the question about scum plans.
Your response:
Instead of directly responding or trying to debunk my reasoning, you simply say "Well why would E_P have said anything anyway, that's a bad move". Forces me to respond to what you want me to respond to (E_P's actions/motivations rather than your own) instead of continuing what I was originally talking about.
Okay. What stopped you from pursuing your original line of questioning anyway? But...again, you didn't ask anything. So what didn't I address?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
As a secondary point: In the first quote you say you wanted to know what E_P was thinking. Why are you saying him revealing it would be a bad move by him in this quote, then? You wanted him to make a bad play by revealing his thoughts?
As I've already stated, I don't believe E_P to be a bad player - if he had actually responded to me, then I would have had to ask what his motivation was for that. Be that as it may, he didn't, so it's not an avenue I have to pursue. I don't WANT anyone who might be town to make a bad play - so why are you asking loaded questions?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
I answer the E_P question, and then repeat my previous theory hoping you would now defend yourself.
Defend myself against what? Are you accusing me of something? Because it looks like you're just speculating to me.
Quote from Caex KotharYou respond by saying "Look what you just did!". Again, not defending yourself, but deflecting the subject of my potential responses from you to me. Putting me on the defensive is one way to get me off of your case.[/QUOTE »
Again, what am I defending myself from? In addition, why do YOU feel the need to defend YOURSELF? You're the one who is apparently attacking me, and you're approaching it from the mindset of, "Boohoo, Iso isn't letting me ask him questions." But I'm not stopping you from continuing your line of questioning - you are. It bothers me that you feel the need to be so defensive and then get...what's the word I'm looking for...nervous? that I'm turning attention on to you.
[QUOTE=pinkys_brain;/comments/10846921]it makes me ignore Iso till I hear from Shark more.
By "ignore Iso", do you mean as a whole or as a potential scumspect?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Suggesting mass claim on Day 1 with no explanation. Scum.
Logic dictates that the town must have a superior bankroll compared to the scum in order to preserve game balance.
I posit that the cop scan is one of the most important town abilities and must not be allowed to fall into scum hands. Therefore, I believe we should use it early (before the scum acquire additional currency) and guarantee that the town gains control of it. I propose that tonight, all town members that are not otherwise occupied, should bid on the cop scan with as much as they feel comfortable spending to make sure it doesn't fall into scum hands. I doubt the scum have any members with 2 coins and it's almost unforeseeable for them to have a member with 3 coins. Therefore, a bid of 2 coins should guarantee town control of the scan. Even so, multiple houses should bid in order to increase our chance and prevent the scum from singling anyone out.
Target at your own discretion and report your results in the morning.
If at any point we have a confirmed townsfolk, it will not be unreasonable to pool money to them in order to check coin claims and to allow them to purchase the kill. That same person should buy protection the night we transfer to them in order to avoid being the night kill and having our efforts be for naught.
This entire post...doesn't say anything. The reasoning for voting poggy is weak - and if poggy is scum, then he almost certainly doesn't have one coin. But from what I can see, this post is just "blah blah Night actions coins blah." I didn't think anything of it at the time because that's all we were talking about then - but then Albus started posting more.
Logically, the scum must start with few coins. Spending them in the first Night on the Dark Cult to protect themselves from scans seems inefficient. After people start dying, the scum will obtain more coins and our chance to target them with the investigation will improve. That is the point at which we should worry about them using coins to cheaply block the cop scan.
It is imminently important to get information as quickly as possible and find the scum before they acquire too much currency and too much power. Remember they will be free to redistribute coins amongst themselves using the Courier service and purchase the vigilante kill as soon as they have 5 coins between them. To wit, this also implies that the scum team's total bankroll is 4 coins or less at the start of the game to prevent an early game double kill.
Revealing too much information or coordinating too much amongst ourselves can be harmful, but bidding on the cop scan in order to increase our chance of keeping it out of the mafia control is very important.
And more about the Night actions.
There's something eerie about this that makes me have to ask:
@Dagger: Do the scum have their own pool of skills that they can bid on in addition to the public choices?
There are three cop shots. There is a lynch and a mafia kill every day + the vig shot. That makes the game length approximately 4 Days barring a No Lynch. If we intend to use all three cop shots, which is advisable, we only have one Night where we don't use it. The mafia get more money as the game goes on, which could easily swing the financial balance in their favor and allow them to more easily purchase the protection.
I don't think there's any problem with this, but:
Quote from Albus »
It is appalling that you are arguing for a course of action which results in the town losing cop scans. Are you scum?
It sits oddly with me that he would ask that Art is scum. I can understand that he might be fishing for his reaction, but unless he's familiar with Art's meta, I doubt Art's reaction would be too terribly relevant to his understanding of Art's alignment. Plus, with Art, it's unlikely that he would respond with any sort of sarcastic response, thusly making his response an anti-affirmation. So what was the point of asking if Artifice was scum?
Your case on Iso has no logical backing. To put it as eloquently as I can, it's nonsense. Anyone can case anyone if they are looking for it, and cases as a whole are not terribly powerful tools. They lose any possibility of usefulness when they start on incorrect assumptions though.
This does NOT mean that your premise is incorrect. Evidence points to the likelihood of Iso being scum. Vote Iso If Iso is scum, Caex is almost certainly town.
And now this. Albus seems to rush to my rescue, but then suddenly, with no mention of anyone before aside from poggy, he jumps on me despite calling Caex's case bull. He doesn't explain why - he only says that it is. And yet he votes me for the "premise" of it.
Quote from Albus »
Poggydude's exceptional bloodthirstyness and failed attempt at forcing the town to mass-claim on Day 1 have been noted. His lynch would be logical and is rapidly approaching inevitability.
Albus then completely diverts his attention to the "issue" of poggy. He's lining up to push a vote on to Caex when I flip town and potentially leaving poggy open to move his vote to him as well. Albus is setting himself up for future votes with little to no knowledge of the player in questions' alignments and it reeks to me like he has already planned out how he plans to push on different players.
The push on poggy is the weakest, though, and given that Albus jumped on him first and then made 5 theory posts with no scumhunting that poggy may be Albus's scumbuddy.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Your case on Iso has no logical backing. To put it as eloquently as I can, it's nonsense. Anyone can case anyone if they are looking for it, and cases as a whole are not terribly powerful tools. They lose any possibility of usefulness when they start on incorrect assumptions though.
This does NOT mean that your premise is incorrect. Evidence points to the likelihood of Iso being scum. Vote Iso If Iso is scum, Caex is almost certainly town.
Poggydude's exceptional bloodthirstyness and failed attempt at forcing the town to mass-claim on Day 1 have been noted. His lynch would be logical and is rapidly approaching inevitability.
??? Slightly confusing to me. So my case has no logical backing, but Iso is still scum because...? You say I have "no logical backing" to my case, then you say that doesn't mean my premies is incorrect. Could you clarify?
Unless you mean that the basis for my case AKA "Seppel was hardcore fishing and deflecting in his answers" is wrong but the premise that he's scum is still correct?
You're sure setting up a very wide net there. "Caex's case is bollocks but he's still right that Iso is scum and poggy is also worth considering later and if Iso is scum then Caex is probably town but we could totally vote him later if Iso isn't". How many bases did you have to search for before you could cover them all?
I will say the quickness on Iso's wagon does bug me. It jumped to 5 before WoD caught himself and unvoted. Then Caex just unvotes after Albus puts it back to 5.
So either A: scum are jumping onto this wagon trying to push an easy lynch or B: scum are jumping off the wagon to keep it from reaching it.
I'll have more on this later when I can finally wrap my head on all the reasons people are pushing each way.
Well, we saw how quickly the votes on Iso jumped from 2 to 4. It's not a stretch to think it could jump from 5 to 7 just as easily. I'd prefer nobody get lynched this early in the game. Especially if Iso is scum. His buddies, if they're not on the wagon already, could put quick votes on him to cut off all discussion by forcing us to go to night.
Oh, you addressed that one. It was with WiFoM, but you did directly address it. I was using it as a starting point for the next few quotes I posted, because it was the first post of yours that piqued my interest and I wanted to go far back enough to give the following exchange context.
Okay. What stopped you from pursuing your original line of questioning anyway? But...again, you didn't ask anything. So what didn't I address?
Nothing stopped me from persuing my original line of questioning. You tried to get me to focus on E_P's play instead of yours.
What I wanted you to address would be my theory regarding your motivation. I wanted you to shoot it down, or argue against it, or react to it at all so I could see how you responded. Poking you with a stick to see how you react, basically.
Or a sword, I guess, what with all the kings and verilys and M'Lords and such.
As I've already stated, I don't believe E_P to be a bad player - if he had actually responded to me, then I would have had to ask what his motivation was for that. Be that as it may, he didn't, so it's not an avenue I have to pursue. I don't WANT anyone who might be town to make a bad play - so why are you asking loaded questions?
That's a fair answer to my question. But it certainly looks as though you were trying to provoke a bad play that would definitely benefit the scum a lot and get E_P yelled at for posting it. I don't buy that you simply wanted to see E_P's reaction, because how you tried to get that reaction was scummy. If you'd directly asked, maybe not quite as bad. But you tried to bait him into answering instead of just coming out and saying it.
I really didn't see that as a loaded question, btw... Not quite sure how to respond to that, other than saying it wasn't intended as loaded, I guess.
Defend myself against what? Are you accusing me of something? Because it looks like you're just speculating to me.
"Defend yourself" might have been too strong of phrasing. I'm trying to pin down a motivation for your fishing on E_P. I provided a theory as to why you did what you did. I wanted you to respond to it in some way. You instead tried to turn it around on me. That seems as though you're trying to be defensive with offense.
Again, what am I defending myself from? In addition, why do YOU feel the need to defend YOURSELF? You're the one who is apparently attacking me, and you're approaching it from the mindset of, "Boohoo, Iso isn't letting me ask him questions." But I'm not stopping you from continuing your line of questioning - you are. It bothers me that you feel the need to be so defensive and then get...what's the word I'm looking for...nervous? that I'm turning attention on to you.
I'm starting to feel as though the intent of my posts isn't being properly expressed.
I'm not saying you're stopping me from asking you questions. I'm saying you're trying to distract me and get me onto different subjects. First it was trying to get me to talk about E_P, second it was trying to make me justify my actions instead of persuing you.
I honestly don't think I'm getting defensive... Feel free to turn the attention on me. But doing it when I'm putting most of my attention on you looks like you're trying to reverse the situation and get me distracted from my original line of thought.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Iso sounds pretty good from the exchange, and with the specifics about Albus I feel a lot better about him. He has been clear, engaged in the conversation, inquisitive without being accusatory, and while putting thought into what he's saying it doesn't appear he is being careful about what he's saying. It also helps he made me go back and reread a couple things, and if my last post wasn't obvious I think he has a couple points about Albus, particularly this line:
It is appalling that you are arguing for a course of action which results in the town losing cop scans. Are you scum?
The use of "appalling" and the continued use of other words pressing the dire consequences of not listening to him are not a good sign (as Az would point out). The lashing out really puzzles me, and either way gives the heavy implication of being frustrated people are not listening to him.
He's clearly not done with the conversation, but at the same time his frustration has caused him to back out of it - I just don't think it's very... proactive. It just seems like he gave up the point too easily by his next post; a post that has it's own issues:
Your case on Iso has no logical backing. To put it as eloquently as I can, it's nonsense. Anyone can case anyone if they are looking for it, and cases as a whole are not terribly powerful tools. They lose any possibility of usefulness when they start on incorrect assumptions though.
This does NOT mean that your premise is incorrect. Evidence points to the likelihood of Iso being scum. Vote Iso If Iso is scum, Caex is almost certainly town.
No seriously. Every coin to me because if I don't get coins, I won't be able to do anything else, and I'll play like I'm Vanilla because I barely understand the game at this point and when I'm Vanilla **** gets crazy.
That being said, while I'm not entirely support of this notion, an idea: We could do poggy's mass coin claim and choose 2 targets for everyone to give their coins to (obviously we choose the two people most widely heralded as town). Then we find out who's lying. And if the scum die and have coins, we know who their buddies are after some math.
Who thinks this is a path worth pursuing? I'm not for it - not yet, anyway.
The great and powerful Iso presumes to convince us that he is a raw newb. This set-up is not that hard to understand and your ideas have a distinct lack of forethought.
Anyway, this discussion is totally pointless and will only benefit the scum.
So let's get to the hunting.
Discussion of the correct use of night actions and proper planning amongst the town without giving out critical hidden information "only benefits the scum"? Please tell me how that benefits the scum and how it fails to benefit the town. This is a serious question. You are all for giving up hidden information that is our only trump card, yet you are against discussing public strategy and co-ordinating our actions for mutual town benefit. You also present a false dichotomy by presuming that we cannot scumhunt while planning for optimal use of coins.
Anyway, I'm still 100% for the plan where everyone gives me their coins.
Unless you're talking about the "steal the Vig shot and the Cop investigations before the town can" thing, I'm not sure what you're hinting at.
Vote Albus
Hey Arti, wanna guess why?
@Dagger: You have me on two different lines in the votecount.
First you return to a bad idea that is clearly anti-town. Then you vote for me with literally no reason posted. Votes without reason are a classic scumtell.
Rofl? Look at all the people jumping on me. I'm like a ****ing trampoline.
Come back when you can substantiate something instead of grasping at straws.
This is a classic style of flailing post. I agree that the votes and reasons for voting you were not logical. However, they still deserve proper rebuttals. You cannot shrug off people who have real (albeit occasionally misguided) opinions.
More "hey guys utilize Night actions as efficiently as possible!"
What is scummy about attempting to enlighten allies to the most efficient use of currency? I am interested in winning this game. I want my team mates to play as flawlessly as possible. I intend to help them with that as much as I can without removing their decision making power. Please, tell me how this could possibly be construed as a scum action.
It sits oddly with me that he would ask that Art is scum. I can understand that he might be fishing for his reaction, but unless he's familiar with Art's meta, I doubt Art's reaction would be too terribly relevant to his understanding of Art's alignment. Plus, with Art, it's unlikely that he would respond with any sort of sarcastic response, thusly making his response an anti-affirmation. So what was the point of asking if Artifice was scum?
It drove home my point and there was literally nothing to lose. The potential for gain, however small, did exist. What have you done to contribute to scum hunting lately?
And now this. Albus seems to rush to my rescue, but then suddenly, with no mention of anyone before aside from poggy, he jumps on me despite calling Caex's case bull. He doesn't explain why - he only says that it is. And yet he votes me for the "premise" of it.
His case was grounded in logical fallacies, which I can explain if required. Your behavior has been scummy. The two ideas are unrelated.
The push on poggy is the weakest, though, and given that Albus jumped on him first and then made 5 theory posts with no scumhunting that poggy may be Albus's scumbuddy.
And that's where I stand on Albus.
It is good to know that you consider town aligned actions, planning, forethought, and logic to be negative actions. Your mindset is clearly scum aligned. If I were prone to bouts of laughter, I would currently be deeply embroiled in one at the thought of poggydude being my ally - let alone a scumbuddy.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
So I got my phone company to activate my phone's browser. I have once again overcome my workplace's anti-personal-internet-use tyranny. However, I do not have a smartphone so phone posts are such a hassle - my phone doesn't even have a keyboard! So i will do ny best to respond. Time to figure out if i can multiquote. If not, I will be home in about three and a half hours.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Skimming to try and catch up but I see that Albus votes and puts iso into claim range and Caex quickly unvotes to take him out. Emo then unvotes and moves his vote.
There should be no worry of a quick hammer at L-2. Any scum doing this would be signing off on thier lynch.
By "ignore Iso", do you mean as a whole or as a potential scumspect?
As a potential scumspect.
Thoughts so far:
I think I called hell after readings Iso's case and asked if the heat was on. I think that was one of the more impressive cases early game I have read from Iso ever. I didn't agree with everything. The are you scum question from Albus is more dumb then useful. But the lack of case and weak pushes from Albus really moved him up.
In regards to Albus points on Iso, it's pretty much just Iso being Iso. I noted many buzz words from Albus in his post, flailing (which the post from Iso is not flailing in the least), question in my head is if the first post bothered him so much where Iso ask for coins why didn't he vote for him at that point or questions Iso about the comment if he found it scummy.
I don't know if it's me but the comments from Albus look controlled and careful.
I also agree that his unvote from Poggy to Iso is highly questionable. He put Iso to L-2 without Poggy saying crap about his plan or reasoning for the mass claim idea.
unvote:
vote: Albus
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I am female, hear me roar!
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
Now that I've read more than the first line of Albus' case against Iso, I can confidently say it is complete garbage that doesn't even attempt to make a case. It's just a summary of a handful of Iso's posts while making fun of him and dismissing everything else (he even attacking Iso for dismissing others).
i think part of the reason Albus has awkward posts is because he is a gimmick trying too hard not to sound like himself. BlueElectric, anyone? But the problem with that for Albus is that he's showing how feigned some of his pushes are. Albus, you seemed so convinced that i was scum in your last post. Something happen since then?
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2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: It is probably easier to admit that this is a gimmick so I can use a bit of meta as needed. And yes, most my posts so far have been roleplay. You really should answer my questions though. I asked you a couple of serious questions in my last long post and I think they deserve answers.
Something did happen since then Iso. I'm getting run up for my roleplay. I am now considering what the best way to proceed is, because getting mislynched for roleplaying seems like a bad move.
My "case" against Iso can be summed up as follows: His posts are trying too hard to be innocuous and his mindset appears to be anti-town. I'm also going to go read poggydude's scum games and see if I can pick up any meta for him before pushing that further.
@PB: It's good to know that being controlled and careful is a scumtell in your opinion. I just thought it was considered good play in general to think about your posts before posting them.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Skimming to try and catch up but I see that Albus votes and puts iso into claim range and Caex quickly unvotes to take him out. Emo then unvotes and moves his vote.
There should be no worry of a quick hammer at L-2. Any scum doing this would be signing off on thier lynch.
Have to think on whats going on here.
My thinking was thus: The wagon on Iso went extremely quickly from just me and Artifice voting him to suddenly 5 votes, one of them from a simple mistake.
I'm not willing to risk that same kind of thing happening again, particularly when WoD hasn't been able to post anything of value yet and MirrorEntity hasn't even shown up.
I'm not sure what you mean by claim range. Every roll is vanilla...
@Iso: It is probably easier to admit that this is a gimmick so I can use a bit of meta as needed. And yes, most my posts so far have been roleplay. You really should answer my questions though. I asked you a couple of serious questions in my last long post and I think they deserve answers.
Something did happen since then Iso. I'm getting run up for my roleplay. I am now considering what the best way to proceed is, because getting mislynched for roleplaying seems like a bad move.
Guess that means I'm the least experienced player here. I actually thought you were a new player too.
I'm not sure about the roleplay thing though. What, exactly, were you roleplaying? A newbie? Why on earth would you roleplay as a newbie when you're apparently an experienced mafia player?
To me, that last paragraph reads "Uh-oh, I'm getting pressure for the way I'm playing. Guess I'll change it because that tone totally wasn't how I normally play. But don't read too much into that, guys, because it was all roleplaying anyway."
Bad excuse is bad.
My "case" against Iso can be summed up as follows: His posts are trying too hard to be innocuous and his mindset appears to be anti-town. I'm also going to go read poggydude's scum games and see if I can pick up any meta for him before pushing that further.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
I have requested V/LA for two to three days from the mod. If this is unacceptable, I will just replace out. Sorry everyone, some serious family issues are more pressing right now.
I'm not sure about the roleplay thing though. What, exactly, were you roleplaying? A newbie? Why on earth would you roleplay as a newbie when you're apparently an experienced mafia player?
To me, that last paragraph reads "Uh-oh, I'm getting pressure for the way I'm playing. Guess I'll change it because that tone totally wasn't how I normally play. But don't read too much into that, guys, because it was all roleplaying anyway."
Bad excuse is bad.
Albus is not just a gimmick, it's a serious alternate account. I don't intend to ever reveal who this account is tied to and you should simply view it as a new player who happens to know a bit about what goes on here. Beyond that, I've also used Albus in other places on the internet for a variety of reasons. It's not just a change in username, he has an entire personality. (Which I'm going to try and get back to as much as I can once I figure out what was bothering some of you.) So the "role play" is me being Albus. For the moment I'm posting as myself while I figure out the best way to handle the apparent hostility towards Albus.
As for the last bit, you are absolutely right in my train of thought. Obviously what I was doing was not working as I expected, so I'm considering how best to adapt. You are welcome to read into it if you actually think you see scummy actions somewhere. I don't think laying out a plan for Night actions and being calm and collected are scumtells though.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Iso is not scummy enough for l-2. I already stated another behavior I find more scummier soooo.......?
You sure are eager for l-2 for early stage of the game there.
Sorry my friend, no luck. How did anything I do sound like a noob though?
Not like a noob. I thought you were new to the site and since you didn't have any mafia-related info in your sig or anything I just figured you were somewhat inexperienced. Dunno why, just the first thing that popped into my head when I saw you post in the sign up thread.
Albus is not just a gimmick, it's a serious alternate account. I don't intend to ever reveal who this account is tied to and you should simply view it as a new player who happens to know a bit about what goes on here. Beyond that, I've also used Albus in other places on the internet for a variety of reasons. It's not just a change in username, he has an entire personality. (Which I'm going to try and get back to as much as I can once I figure out what was bothering some of you.) So the "role play" is me being Albus. For the moment I'm posting as myself while I figure out the best way to handle the apparent hostility towards Albus.
Alright, I guess... Seems strage to me but I can't really judge, seeing how I'm one of the reigning D&D geeks of the Pen and Paper Inn.
As for the last bit, you are absolutely right in my train of thought. Obviously what I was doing was not working as I expected, so I'm considering how best to adapt. You are welcome to read into it if you actually think you see scummy actions somewhere. I don't think laying out a plan for Night actions and being calm and collected are scumtells though.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a sudden change in tone and posting style after receiving pressure considered suspicious?
That's an actual question, by the way. I'm honestly not sure.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Nothing stopped me from persuing my original line of questioning. You tried to get me to focus on E_P's play instead of yours.
Then why did you say that I prevented you from following through with your line of questioning?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
What I wanted you to address would be my theory regarding your motivation. I wanted you to shoot it down, or argue against it, or react to it at all so I could see how you responded. Poking you with a stick to see how you react, basically.
Or a sword, I guess, what with all the kings and verilys and M'Lords and such.
Does "you're wrong" work? Because that's all you're getting out of me, as that's all I can really say.
Quote from Caex Kothar »
That's a fair answer to my question. But it certainly looks as though you were trying to provoke a bad play that would definitely benefit the scum a lot and get E_P yelled at for posting it. I don't buy that you simply wanted to see E_P's reaction, because how you tried to get that reaction was scummy. If you'd directly asked, maybe not quite as bad. But you tried to bait him into answering instead of just coming out and saying it.
Which, if E_P were scum, may have yielded a reaction with which I could probe into E_P's head had you not pointed it out. In the future, please do not address things that are not directed towards you unless the player it was originally intended for has already answered. As it is, though, I don't think E_P is scum.
Quote from Caex Kothar »
I really didn't see that as a loaded question, btw... Not quite sure how to respond to that, other than saying it wasn't intended as loaded, I guess.
And...you're upset at me because I didn't respond to you prodding me?
Quote from Caex Kothar »
"Defend yourself" might have been too strong of phrasing. I'm trying to pin down a motivation for your fishing on E_P. I provided a theory as to why you did what you did. I wanted you to respond to it in some way. You instead tried to turn it around on me. That seems as though you're trying to be defensive with offense.
Typically, if I want to understand the motivation of the person questioning me, I flip it around on them. I think you're town.
Quote from Caex Kothar »
I'm not saying you're stopping me from asking you questions. I'm saying you're trying to distract me and get me onto different subjects. First it was trying to get me to talk about E_P, second it was trying to make me justify my actions instead of persuing you.
If you think what I'm doing is a distraction tactic, then continue with your line of questioning anyway after responding to me.
Quote from Caex Kothar »
I honestly don't think I'm getting defensive... Feel free to turn the attention on me. But doing it when I'm putting most of my attention on you looks like you're trying to reverse the situation and get me distracted from my original line of thought.
I'm an open book, dudeman. I'll answer anything you want except how many coins I have, and that'll happen once I'm at claim range and you guys intend to lynch me.
The use of "appalling" and the continued use of other words pressing the dire consequences of not listening to him are not a good sign (as Az would point out). The lashing out really puzzles me, and either way gives the heavy implication of being frustrated people are not listening to him.
Hey, a question for you. I'm starting to put stock into the tell of people saying "noted". Because I've seen mostly scum use it. What is your experience with this?
The great and powerful Iso presumes to convince us that he is a raw newb. This set-up is not that hard to understand and your ideas have a distinct lack of forethought.
So my ideas lack forethought, yet it's difficult for you to believe that I didn't grasp the setup at that time?
Quote from Albus »
Discussion of the correct use of night actions and proper planning amongst the town without giving out critical hidden information "only benefits the scum"? Please tell me how that benefits the scum and how it fails to benefit the town. This is a serious question. You are all for giving up hidden information that is our only trump card, yet you are against discussing public strategy and co-ordinating our actions for mutual town benefit. You also present a false dichotomy by presuming that we cannot scumhunt while planning for optimal use of coins.
Uhh, what I'm saying is that we SHOULD HAVE BEEN scumhunting instead. Players can slip - people can learn information about your role if you reveal enough of your mindset, even unintentionally. As it was, discussion was at a standstill - nobody was attempting to reveal anything about their motives, and no one was looking into them. This is a misrepresentation of what I said.
Quote from Albus »
First you return to a bad idea that is clearly anti-town. Then you vote for me with literally no reason posted. Votes without reason are a classic scumtell.
Scumtells don't work on me. Ask Arti.
Quote from Albus »
This is a classic style of flailing post. I agree that the votes and reasons for voting you were not logical. However, they still deserve proper rebuttals. You cannot shrug off people who have real (albeit occasionally misguided) opinions.
Flailing how? If the people voting me are not logical, why on earth would I acknowledge them? What is there to rebut if there is no logic present? What would you like me to respond to?
Quote from Albus »
What is scummy about attempting to enlighten allies to the most efficient use of currency? I am interested in winning this game. I want my team mates to play as flawlessly as possible. I intend to help them with that as much as I can without removing their decision making power. Please, tell me how this could possibly be construed as a scum action.
The lack of scumhunting involved in everything you had done up to that point.
Quote from Albus »
It drove home my point and there was literally nothing to lose. The potential for gain, however small, did exist. What have you done to contribute to scum hunting lately?
Is this a rhetorical question? I hope it is.
Quote from Albus »
His case was grounded in logical fallacies, which I can explain if required. Your behavior has been scummy. The two ideas are unrelated.
Please do. And from what I've seen, you have yet to explain how my behavior is scummy in the slightest. All you've said is, "this is what I was doing, not what you're saying," "you flailed," (which was incorrect), "here have a misrep," and "you're not scumhunting."
I think I called hell after readings Iso's case and asked if the heat was on. I think that was one of the more impressive cases early game I have read from Iso ever.
Quote from pinkys_brain »
I also agree that his unvote from Poggy to Iso is highly questionable. He put Iso to L-2 without Poggy saying crap about his plan or reasoning for the mass claim idea.
Now that I've read more than the first line of Albus' case against Iso, I can confidently say it is complete garbage that doesn't even attempt to make a case. It's just a summary of a handful of Iso's posts while making fun of him and dismissing everything else (he even attacking Iso for dismissing others).
To me, that last paragraph reads "Uh-oh, I'm getting pressure for the way I'm playing. Guess I'll change it because that tone totally wasn't how I normally play. But don't read too much into that, guys, because it was all roleplaying anyway."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Then why did you say that I prevented you from following through with your line of questioning?
Misspoke, I guess. I meant that you were trying to prevent me. Obviously it didn't stop me, because I repeated my theory once and quoted it twice trying to get you to comment on it.
Does "you're wrong" work? Because that's all you're getting out of me, as that's all I can really say.
Fair. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but it's an answer.
Which, if E_P were scum, may have yielded a reaction with which I could probe into E_P's head had you not pointed it out. In the future, please do not address things that are not directed towards you unless the player it was originally intended for has already answered. As it is, though, I don't think E_P is scum.
But if I didn't point it out and E_P did indeed answer, it's a boon for the scum. You get to probe into E_P's head, but the scum get two free ideas, one or both of which could be good and possibly more threatening to the town than whatever goals they currently are persuing. I mean, I know I'm new to the game and all, but to me it just seems logical to stop that kind of situation before it happens.
And...you're upset at me because I didn't respond to you prodding me?
Maybe not upset. Disappointed that you didn't. Prodding folks is fun. If you get info from it, it's just a little bit more fun.
Typically, if I want to understand the motivation of the person questioning me, I flip it around on them. I think you're town.
But I'd prefer if you did it while responding to whatever else is in the post you quote. That's where I got hung up. You bypassed my posts to reverse the situation without commenting on what else I was saying, which I found suspicious.
If you think what I'm doing is a distraction tactic, then continue with your line of questioning anyway after responding to me.
I did. Not so much questioning, but I repeated my theory then quoted it to you to see what you'd say.
I'm an open book, dudeman. I'll answer anything you want except how many coins I have, and that'll happen once I'm at claim range and you guys intend to lynch me.
Well, from this exchange and from Albus' recent posts you're starting to look less scummy and Albus moreso. I'm not sure if you're the correct lynch for today. We'll have to see how Albus handles himself first, I guess.
But why? What do you perceive my mindset to be?
Anti-town first because of the fishing on E_P to get him to say out in the open what the best moves for the scum could be. You say that you were just trying to see if E_P would make that bad move, but if he does make that move I think the gains to the scum (possible inspiration and/or new thoughts on how to proceed) would be higher than what the town gains (chance to poke around inside E_P's head). It just seems off to me.
Second because I perceived you as deflecting instead of directly commenting on my posts, though after some of your recent answers I'm thinking maybe I was a little overenthusiastic about that. Still, in the most recent version of my notes (I updated them yesterday, now that I look at them) you've got more scum points than townie points.
Last time I checked, not completely, but it can be.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
??? Slightly confusing to me. So my case has no logical backing, but Iso is still scum because...? You say I have "no logical backing" to my case, then you say that doesn't mean my premies is incorrect. Could you clarify?
Iso is thinking like scum and trying to pretend to be a noob, while steering us towards bad actions. You were going after him for scumtells that honestly didn't make sense and are also null-tells just because it's Iso.
Unless you mean that the basis for my case AKA "Seppel was hardcore fishing and deflecting in his answers" is wrong but the premise that he's scum is still correct?
You're sure setting up a very wide net there. "Caex's case is bollocks but he's still right that Iso is scum and poggy is also worth considering later and if Iso is scum then Caex is probably town but we could totally vote him later if Iso isn't". How many bases did you have to search for before you could cover them all?
poggydude is scummy, but there isn't a lot of meta on him to back it up. Claiming in your first post is just a flat out bad action no matter how you spin it though. I also intentionally neglected to say that you are scum if Iso is town. That's because the evidence doesn't support that. If Iso is scum, it would be very odd of a relatively new player to try and bus him to death so early in the game when he's such a useful scumbuddy. That is why you would be likely town if he flipped scum. There is no correlation the opposite direction.
Well, we saw how quickly the votes on Iso jumped from 2 to 4. It's not a stretch to think it could jump from 5 to 7 just as easily. I'd prefer nobody get lynched this early in the game. Especially if Iso is scum. His buddies, if they're not on the wagon already, could put quick votes on him to cut off all discussion by forcing us to go to night.
If they did that, we would immediately know to lynch them. Now that I know you are new, I don't mind explaining things like this. Scum don't like to hammer, because it tends to give off a lot of information. Especially if two of them hammered together in a fashion that seemed at all co-ordinated, we would know they were scumbuddies.
The only danger comes from town acting illogically and quickhammering without thought. Especially because they would likely be lynched for the reason mentioned above.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
What WIFOM defense? What appeal to authority? How is my back against the wall? I will not be today's lynch. That's all there is to it. There is no pressure. Back up your vote or back off.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What WIFOM defense? What appeal to authority? How is my back against the wall? I will not be today's lynch. That's all there is to it. There is no pressure. Back up your vote or back off.
Jt because other players have backed off of you doesn't mean there isn't still pressure, specifically pressure to perform in a non-scummy way.
You want coins. You came barreling into the thread practically begging for them, but playing the innocent (some have called it "noob") card. This reads to me like a brazen "Iso gambit" and I'm more than willing to lynch you for it.
I find this scummy, partially for specific reasons I feel compelled to shut up about (suffice it to say echoes of the past). I can't make this any more clear: My. Vote. Stays.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
@PB: It's good to know that being controlled and careful is a scumtell in your opinion. I just thought it was considered good play in general to think about your posts before posting them.
It's an opinion I have had over the years. I notice town tends to yell and be more uncontrollable and panicy then scum. Scum tend to be more controlled in how they post and are more careful to not make waves.
I don't think much about what I'm posting to someone, I just post what is going through my head. No fluff or pretense.
Not sure about that. I felt like Albus jumped onto a bw for weak reasons. Seriously he wasn't even agreeing with anything that was said but voted anyways. That not only makes no sense, but it read as double talk.
Jt because other players have backed off of you doesn't mean there isn't still pressure, specifically pressure to perform in a non-scummy way.
You want coins. You came barreling into the thread practically begging for them, but playing the innocent (some have called it "noob") card. This reads to me like a brazen "Iso gambit" and I'm more than willing to lynch you for it.
I find this scummy, partially for specific reasons I feel compelled to shut up about (suffice it to say echoes of the past). I can't make this any more clear: My. Vote. Stays.
How is the Iso gambit different from town or scum Iso? Can you link where Iso has done scum gambits at the start of a game before?
Where did Iso play the newb card?
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I am female, hear me roar!
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
No seriously. Every coin to me because if I don't get coins, I won't be able to do anything else, and I'll play like I'm Vanilla because I barely understand the game at this point and when I'm Vanilla **** gets crazy.
That being said, while I'm not entirely support of this notion, an idea: We could do poggy's mass coin claim and choose 2 targets for everyone to give their coins to (obviously we choose the two people most widely heralded as town). Then we find out who's lying. And if the scum die and have coins, we know who their buddies are after some math.
Who thinks this is a path worth pursuing? I'm not for it - not yet, anyway.
Where Iso acts like he is a confused vanilla town and agrees with poggydude's inane gambit. Then he fails to understand the set-up.
It's not too terribly difficult to comprehend but I guess it would be hard to game correctly if the scum gain a coin every time someone dies, too.
Back to the drawing board.
Where he acts like he finally understands and cancels his previous idea. Iso is obviously an experienced player. Throwing out a bad idea to see who bites and then saying "oh wait, nevermind" when no one does is quite scummy. He is basically covering it up by pretending that he didn't understand what was going on, but that seems like a mistake only a noob (I.E. not Iso) would make.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Phone post. Art, is it scummy to want coins, then? Do you want coins? Why or why not? What game is this reminding you of? I don't feel pressure from the votes on me ergo there is no pressure. I have no intention of changing what I am doing. Please comment on my Albus case. Thanks. Albus I am not sure why you would think I would try to appear inexperienced. My Mafia history on this site is a click away. Your argument manes no sense. I was confused because I did not realize everyone was vanilla. My early vote on Caex should make this clear.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Where Iso acts like he is a confused vanilla town and agrees with poggydude's inane gambit. Then he fails to understand the set-up.
Then here:
Where he acts like he finally understands and cancels his previous idea. Iso is obviously an experienced player. Throwing out a bad idea to see who bites and then saying "oh wait, nevermind" when no one does is quite scummy. He is basically covering it up by pretending that he didn't understand what was going on, but that seems like a mistake only a noob (I.E. not Iso) would make.
That is a stretch of an imagination you have there.
When I first looked at this game I was a bit confused myself. I had to go back and reread my PM about the coins because I missed the first time I got my PM. Then I slowly had to reread the mechanics again. That is not playing the newb card that is in my thoughts Iso being eager and not reading the game carefully post. (IE: typically Iso)
Iso is thinking like scum and trying to pretend to be a noob, while steering us towards bad actions. You were going after him for scumtells that honestly didn't make sense and are also null-tells just because it's Iso.
poggydude is scummy, but there isn't a lot of meta on him to back it up. Claiming in your first post is just a flat out bad action no matter how you spin it though. I also intentionally neglected to say that you are scum if Iso is town. That's because the evidence doesn't support that. If Iso is scum, it would be very odd of a relatively new player to try and bus him to death so early in the game when he's such a useful scumbuddy. That is why you would be likely town if he flipped scum. There is no correlation the opposite direction.
This is a big load of crap. Calling Iso scum because of pretending to be a noob, but everyone knows Iso.......seriously!!! But Poggy meta makes it likely that Poggy's gambit was just a gambit.
I don't know why more people are not voting Albus at this point.
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I am female, hear me roar!
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
This is a big load of crap. Calling Iso scum because of pretending to be a noob, but everyone knows Iso.......seriously!!! But Poggy meta makes it likely that Poggy's gambit was just a gambit.
I don't know why more people are not voting Albus at this point.
Because there is no evidence to support a hypothesis of me being scum. The fact that you disagree with me doesn't make me scum. The fact that I think Iso is scummy doesn't make me scum. (as much as he would have you believe otherwise) The fact that I've been thinking my posts through doesn't make me scum. Have you considered your reasons for voting me from a logical perspective instead of an emotional one?
Iso said it himself, when someone tries to hunt him he turns it around on them. Basically the only reason I'm being voted for at all is because Iso is very persuasive.
I agree with MirrorEntity on cases. It's important to post your thoughts and motivations, especially when voting. That's different from trying to case someone though. Primarily, the former reveals information about yourself. The latter is mostly just used as a tool to get people lynched regardless of alignment.
The "u-turn" comes from reading poggy's meta... Seeing that he does something absolutely pointless at the start of every game makes this less of a scum tell. The fact that he gave out important information keeps it from being a null-tell however. That action can be nothing besides anti-town and will probably hurt us eventually. I'm rather partial to the idea that poggydude and Iso are both scum. My level of conviction has reduced somewhat though, which explains my current non-voting status.
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"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
Iso said it himself, when someone tries to hunt him he turns it around on them. Basically the only reason I'm being voted for at all is because Iso is very persuasive.
I think the reason you're being voted is because you're scummy. I was hunting you long before you even said my name in the thread.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because there is no evidence to support a hypothesis of me being scum. The fact that you disagree with me doesn't make me scum. The fact that I think Iso is scummy doesn't make me scum. (as much as he would have you believe otherwise) The fact that I've been thinking my posts through doesn't make me scum. Have you considered your reasons for voting me from a logical perspective instead of an emotional one?
Iso said it himself, when someone tries to hunt him he turns it around on them. Basically the only reason I'm being voted for at all is because Iso is very persuasive.
I agree with MirrorEntity on cases. It's important to post your thoughts and motivations, especially when voting. That's different from trying to case someone though. Primarily, the former reveals information about yourself. The latter is mostly just used as a tool to get people lynched regardless of alignment.
The "u-turn" comes from reading poggy's meta... Seeing that he does something absolutely pointless at the start of every game makes this less of a scum tell. The fact that he gave out important information keeps it from being a null-tell however. That action can be nothing besides anti-town and will probably hurt us eventually. I'm rather partial to the idea that poggydude and Iso are both scum. My level of conviction has reduced somewhat though, which explains my current non-voting status.
Everyone lumps my bad gambits together as poggy being poggy but my gambits often have a point to them that evryone ignores. In this case withholding info just because it is the only secret seems awful. This way we prevent the scum from lying right from the get go. We lock actions in, we allow for a starting point for any paper trails that might form. We know when we will be seeing our bonus coins from deaths and we will know who we can give coins to to get to the vig shot faster.
Being mum about your coin amount because "hurr hurr we keep the scum in the dark on one small detail" is the dumbest thing i've heard. Using my plan we can potentially weed out liars and lock scum into things they don't want to be locked into.
Except if the scum lie about their amounts. How will anyone know if they are or not? All the abilities are anonymous, so we gain no info about who spends what coins to use what abilities. The risk of showing the town's hand so early far, far outweighs the risk of somehow catching someone in a lie.
If the scum know how many coins the town has, they'll be informed who to kill to stop people from utilizing the ability pool, or how much to bid on abilities to win their use.
It's almost entirely downsided for the town to reveal that info this early. Maybe later in the game it could be useful, but not at the start of the game.
if the scum lie about their amounts we catch them when they try to claim having done something. We see who has given who coins and we do the math.
Reveling later has little benefit since we already lost all of our chances at proper bookkeeping, we lose out on who did what and it become a big undecipherable mess.
if the scum lie about their amounts we catch them when they try to claim having done something. We see who has given who coins and we do the math.
And how will we know if they have or haven't done something? How will that catch them in a lie? It's not possible to catch a scum in a lie regarding their abilities, because they're all anonymous. For us to find out how many coins they truly have, they'll have to be dead. You're proposing that after we kill a scum and find out he was lying we shout "HA! Caught you in a lie, corpsey! What're you going to do about, you dead fool! You can't do anything, can you? Nope! Because you're dead!"
Reveling later has little benefit since we already lost all of our chances at proper bookkeeping, we lose out on who did what and it become a big undecipherable mess.
?
Except if the scum lie about their amounts the first time! Again, the only way we have to figure out who is lying about their amounts is when they die.
What you're propsing sounds like you want everyone to announce every ability they used every night. Which they can lie about, and nobody will be able to tell. How does that promote bookkeeping, when we can't prove or disprove it. The scum could simply say "I didn't do anything last night" and nobody could prove them wrong.
Everyone lumps my bad gambits together as poggy being poggy but my gambits often have a point to them that evryone ignores. In this case withholding info just because it is the only secret seems awful. This way we prevent the scum from lying right from the get go. We lock actions in, we allow for a starting point for any paper trails that might form. We know when we will be seeing our bonus coins from deaths and we will know who we can give coins to to get to the vig shot faster.
And then there's this. The first sentence reads "poor me, everyone dismisses my ideas."
The rest is more or less untrue, because everything is anonymous and most of it is unproveable.
Being mum about your coin amount because "hurr hurr we keep the scum in the dark on one small detail" is the dumbest thing i've heard. Using my plan we can potentially weed out liars and lock scum into things they don't want to be locked into.
Preemptively (and postemptively) dismissing arguments against you by calling them stupid.
But whatever, let fear guide you.
So everyone who doesn't agree with you is a coward?
Double FoS: poggy
This sudden surge of aggressive pushing for a bad plan isn't filling me with confidence.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
I have found recently that putting information on a large scale benefits the scum so while it may seem like a decent idea at first it is probably a terrible one. We should keep our coins and our actions to ourselves until we have to claim. Though I maintain that everyone should still give me their coins. That being said, poggy, do you have anything to say about what has happened in the game so far or are you just going to push the claim?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Everyone lumps my bad gambits together as poggy being poggy but my gambits often have a point to them that evryone ignores. In this case withholding info just because it is the only secret seems awful. This way we prevent the scum from lying right from the get go. We lock actions in, we allow for a starting point for any paper trails that might form. We know when we will be seeing our bonus coins from deaths and we will know who we can give coins to to get to the vig shot faster.
Being mum about your coin amount because "hurr hurr we keep the scum in the dark on one small detail" is the dumbest thing i've heard. Using my plan we can potentially weed out liars and lock scum into things they don't want to be locked into.
But whatever, let fear guide you.
You tell everyone who has the most coins... Then the scum kill them. The coins then go into te pot and get distributed to the scum. It's the same thing as outing power roles in any other set-up, except here it also gives the scum abilities.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." - Isiah 1:18
I have found recently that putting information on a large scale benefits the scum so while it may seem like a decent idea at first it is probably a terrible one. We should keep our coins and our actions to ourselves until we have to claim. Though I maintain that everyone should still give me their coins. That being said, poggy, do you have anything to say about what has happened in the game so far or are you just going to push the claim?
If scum target power roles in an open setup they have a much greater chance of losing. If the town tries and break open the setup to their advantage they will probably lose.
Iso is not scummy enough for l-2. I already stated another behavior I find more scummier soooo.......?
You sure are eager for l-2 for early stage of the game there.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
Your case on Iso has no logical backing. To put it as eloquently as I can, it's nonsense. Anyone can case anyone if they are looking for it, and cases as a whole are not terribly powerful tools. They lose any possibility of usefulness when they start on incorrect assumptions though.
This does NOT mean that your premise is incorrect. Evidence points to the likelihood of Iso being scum. Vote Iso If Iso is scum, Caex is almost certainly town.
Poggydude's exceptional bloodthirstyness and failed attempt at forcing the town to mass-claim on Day 1 have been noted. His lynch would be logical and is rapidly approaching inevitability.
{Magic: The RPG}
I will say the quickness on Iso's wagon does bug me. It jumped to 5 before WoD caught himself and unvoted. Then Caex just unvotes after Albus puts it back to 5.
So either A: scum are jumping onto this wagon trying to push an easy lynch or B: scum are jumping off the wagon to keep it from reaching it.
I'll have more on this later when I can finally wrap my head on all the reasons people are pushing each way.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
So...what didn't I address?
Okay. What stopped you from pursuing your original line of questioning anyway? But...again, you didn't ask anything. So what didn't I address?
As I've already stated, I don't believe E_P to be a bad player - if he had actually responded to me, then I would have had to ask what his motivation was for that. Be that as it may, he didn't, so it's not an avenue I have to pursue. I don't WANT anyone who might be town to make a bad play - so why are you asking loaded questions?
Defend myself against what? Are you accusing me of something? Because it looks like you're just speculating to me.
By "ignore Iso", do you mean as a whole or as a potential scumspect?
Next post.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This entire post...doesn't say anything. The reasoning for voting poggy is weak - and if poggy is scum, then he almost certainly doesn't have one coin. But from what I can see, this post is just "blah blah Night actions coins blah." I didn't think anything of it at the time because that's all we were talking about then - but then Albus started posting more.
More "hey guys utilize Night actions as efficiently as possible!"
And more about the Night actions.
There's something eerie about this that makes me have to ask:
@Dagger: Do the scum have their own pool of skills that they can bid on in addition to the public choices?
I don't think there's any problem with this, but:
It sits oddly with me that he would ask that Art is scum. I can understand that he might be fishing for his reaction, but unless he's familiar with Art's meta, I doubt Art's reaction would be too terribly relevant to his understanding of Art's alignment. Plus, with Art, it's unlikely that he would respond with any sort of sarcastic response, thusly making his response an anti-affirmation. So what was the point of asking if Artifice was scum?
And now this. Albus seems to rush to my rescue, but then suddenly, with no mention of anyone before aside from poggy, he jumps on me despite calling Caex's case bull. He doesn't explain why - he only says that it is. And yet he votes me for the "premise" of it.
Albus then completely diverts his attention to the "issue" of poggy. He's lining up to push a vote on to Caex when I flip town and potentially leaving poggy open to move his vote to him as well. Albus is setting himself up for future votes with little to no knowledge of the player in questions' alignments and it reeks to me like he has already planned out how he plans to push on different players.
The push on poggy is the weakest, though, and given that Albus jumped on him first and then made 5 theory posts with no scumhunting that poggy may be Albus's scumbuddy.
And that's where I stand on Albus.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Remove the "that".
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso (4) - Artifice 101, Emo_Pinata, poggydude, Albus
Artifice 101 (1) - SharkFinnigan
Albus (1) - Iso
Arnnaria (1) - pinkys_brain
It takes 7 to Lynch with 12 alive.
The only hidden aspects of this setup are the players' alignments and starting tokens, my Lord.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
??? Slightly confusing to me. So my case has no logical backing, but Iso is still scum because...? You say I have "no logical backing" to my case, then you say that doesn't mean my premies is incorrect. Could you clarify?
Unless you mean that the basis for my case AKA "Seppel was hardcore fishing and deflecting in his answers" is wrong but the premise that he's scum is still correct?
You're sure setting up a very wide net there. "Caex's case is bollocks but he's still right that Iso is scum and poggy is also worth considering later and if Iso is scum then Caex is probably town but we could totally vote him later if Iso isn't". How many bases did you have to search for before you could cover them all?
Well, we saw how quickly the votes on Iso jumped from 2 to 4. It's not a stretch to think it could jump from 5 to 7 just as easily. I'd prefer nobody get lynched this early in the game. Especially if Iso is scum. His buddies, if they're not on the wagon already, could put quick votes on him to cut off all discussion by forcing us to go to night.
Oh, you addressed that one. It was with WiFoM, but you did directly address it. I was using it as a starting point for the next few quotes I posted, because it was the first post of yours that piqued my interest and I wanted to go far back enough to give the following exchange context.
Nothing stopped me from persuing my original line of questioning. You tried to get me to focus on E_P's play instead of yours.
What I wanted you to address would be my theory regarding your motivation. I wanted you to shoot it down, or argue against it, or react to it at all so I could see how you responded. Poking you with a stick to see how you react, basically.
Or a sword, I guess, what with all the kings and verilys and M'Lords and such.
That's a fair answer to my question. But it certainly looks as though you were trying to provoke a bad play that would definitely benefit the scum a lot and get E_P yelled at for posting it. I don't buy that you simply wanted to see E_P's reaction, because how you tried to get that reaction was scummy. If you'd directly asked, maybe not quite as bad. But you tried to bait him into answering instead of just coming out and saying it.
I really didn't see that as a loaded question, btw... Not quite sure how to respond to that, other than saying it wasn't intended as loaded, I guess.
"Defend yourself" might have been too strong of phrasing. I'm trying to pin down a motivation for your fishing on E_P. I provided a theory as to why you did what you did. I wanted you to respond to it in some way. You instead tried to turn it around on me. That seems as though you're trying to be defensive with offense.
I'm starting to feel as though the intent of my posts isn't being properly expressed.
I'm not saying you're stopping me from asking you questions. I'm saying you're trying to distract me and get me onto different subjects. First it was trying to get me to talk about E_P, second it was trying to make me justify my actions instead of persuing you.
I honestly don't think I'm getting defensive... Feel free to turn the attention on me. But doing it when I'm putting most of my attention on you looks like you're trying to reverse the situation and get me distracted from my original line of thought.
{Magic: The RPG}
Iso sounds pretty good from the exchange, and with the specifics about Albus I feel a lot better about him. He has been clear, engaged in the conversation, inquisitive without being accusatory, and while putting thought into what he's saying it doesn't appear he is being careful about what he's saying. It also helps he made me go back and reread a couple things, and if my last post wasn't obvious I think he has a couple points about Albus, particularly this line:
The use of "appalling" and the continued use of other words pressing the dire consequences of not listening to him are not a good sign (as Az would point out). The lashing out really puzzles me, and either way gives the heavy implication of being frustrated people are not listening to him.
He's clearly not done with the conversation, but at the same time his frustration has caused him to back out of it - I just don't think it's very... proactive. It just seems like he gave up the point too easily by his next post; a post that has it's own issues:
How is this not contrary?
The great and powerful Iso presumes to convince us that he is a raw newb. This set-up is not that hard to understand and your ideas have a distinct lack of forethought.
Discussion of the correct use of night actions and proper planning amongst the town without giving out critical hidden information "only benefits the scum"? Please tell me how that benefits the scum and how it fails to benefit the town. This is a serious question. You are all for giving up hidden information that is our only trump card, yet you are against discussing public strategy and co-ordinating our actions for mutual town benefit. You also present a false dichotomy by presuming that we cannot scumhunt while planning for optimal use of coins.
First you return to a bad idea that is clearly anti-town. Then you vote for me with literally no reason posted. Votes without reason are a classic scumtell.
This is a classic style of flailing post. I agree that the votes and reasons for voting you were not logical. However, they still deserve proper rebuttals. You cannot shrug off people who have real (albeit occasionally misguided) opinions.
What is scummy about attempting to enlighten allies to the most efficient use of currency? I am interested in winning this game. I want my team mates to play as flawlessly as possible. I intend to help them with that as much as I can without removing their decision making power. Please, tell me how this could possibly be construed as a scum action.
It drove home my point and there was literally nothing to lose. The potential for gain, however small, did exist. What have you done to contribute to scum hunting lately?
His case was grounded in logical fallacies, which I can explain if required. Your behavior has been scummy. The two ideas are unrelated.
It is good to know that you consider town aligned actions, planning, forethought, and logic to be negative actions. Your mindset is clearly scum aligned. If I were prone to bouts of laughter, I would currently be deeply embroiled in one at the thought of poggydude being my ally - let alone a scumbuddy.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Skimming to try and catch up but I see that Albus votes and puts iso into claim range and Caex quickly unvotes to take him out. Emo then unvotes and moves his vote.
There should be no worry of a quick hammer at L-2. Any scum doing this would be signing off on thier lynch.
Have to think on whats going on here.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
As a potential scumspect.
Thoughts so far:
I think I called hell after readings Iso's case and asked if the heat was on. I think that was one of the more impressive cases early game I have read from Iso ever. I didn't agree with everything. The are you scum question from Albus is more dumb then useful. But the lack of case and weak pushes from Albus really moved him up.
In regards to Albus points on Iso, it's pretty much just Iso being Iso. I noted many buzz words from Albus in his post, flailing (which the post from Iso is not flailing in the least), question in my head is if the first post bothered him so much where Iso ask for coins why didn't he vote for him at that point or questions Iso about the comment if he found it scummy.
I don't know if it's me but the comments from Albus look controlled and careful.
I also agree that his unvote from Poggy to Iso is highly questionable. He put Iso to L-2 without Poggy saying crap about his plan or reasoning for the mass claim idea.
unvote:
vote: Albus
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
I am going to re-read and see if I am missing anything.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Something did happen since then Iso. I'm getting run up for my roleplay. I am now considering what the best way to proceed is, because getting mislynched for roleplaying seems like a bad move.
My "case" against Iso can be summed up as follows: His posts are trying too hard to be innocuous and his mindset appears to be anti-town. I'm also going to go read poggydude's scum games and see if I can pick up any meta for him before pushing that further.
@PB: It's good to know that being controlled and careful is a scumtell in your opinion. I just thought it was considered good play in general to think about your posts before posting them.
My thinking was thus: The wagon on Iso went extremely quickly from just me and Artifice voting him to suddenly 5 votes, one of them from a simple mistake.
I'm not willing to risk that same kind of thing happening again, particularly when WoD hasn't been able to post anything of value yet and MirrorEntity hasn't even shown up.
I'm not sure what you mean by claim range. Every roll is vanilla...
Guess that means I'm the least experienced player here. I actually thought you were a new player too.
I'm not sure about the roleplay thing though. What, exactly, were you roleplaying? A newbie? Why on earth would you roleplay as a newbie when you're apparently an experienced mafia player?
To me, that last paragraph reads "Uh-oh, I'm getting pressure for the way I'm playing. Guess I'll change it because that tone totally wasn't how I normally play. But don't read too much into that, guys, because it was all roleplaying anyway."
Bad excuse is bad.
I do agree that Iso's mindset appears anti-town.
{Magic: The RPG}
Coin amount. Derp. Please ignore my stupidity.
{Magic: The RPG}
Albus is not just a gimmick, it's a serious alternate account. I don't intend to ever reveal who this account is tied to and you should simply view it as a new player who happens to know a bit about what goes on here. Beyond that, I've also used Albus in other places on the internet for a variety of reasons. It's not just a change in username, he has an entire personality. (Which I'm going to try and get back to as much as I can once I figure out what was bothering some of you.) So the "role play" is me being Albus. For the moment I'm posting as myself while I figure out the best way to handle the apparent hostility towards Albus.
As for the last bit, you are absolutely right in my train of thought. Obviously what I was doing was not working as I expected, so I'm considering how best to adapt. You are welcome to read into it if you actually think you see scummy actions somewhere. I don't think laying out a plan for Night actions and being calm and collected are scumtells though.
This^^... oh, wait... you did that. Quote walls R us. Geez.
I am without a 'puter at the moment (PS3 all up in here ATM) so I can't participate fully. Sux.
What other behavior? I missed it apparently.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Not like a noob. I thought you were new to the site and since you didn't have any mafia-related info in your sig or anything I just figured you were somewhat inexperienced. Dunno why, just the first thing that popped into my head when I saw you post in the sign up thread.
Alright, I guess... Seems strage to me but I can't really judge, seeing how I'm one of the reigning D&D geeks of the Pen and Paper Inn.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a sudden change in tone and posting style after receiving pressure considered suspicious?
That's an actual question, by the way. I'm honestly not sure.
{Magic: The RPG}
Then why did you say that I prevented you from following through with your line of questioning?
Does "you're wrong" work? Because that's all you're getting out of me, as that's all I can really say.
Which, if E_P were scum, may have yielded a reaction with which I could probe into E_P's head had you not pointed it out. In the future, please do not address things that are not directed towards you unless the player it was originally intended for has already answered. As it is, though, I don't think E_P is scum.
And...you're upset at me because I didn't respond to you prodding me?
Typically, if I want to understand the motivation of the person questioning me, I flip it around on them. I think you're town.
If you think what I'm doing is a distraction tactic, then continue with your line of questioning anyway after responding to me.
I'm an open book, dudeman. I'll answer anything you want except how many coins I have, and that'll happen once I'm at claim range and you guys intend to lynch me.
Hey, a question for you. I'm starting to put stock into the tell of people saying "noted". Because I've seen mostly scum use it. What is your experience with this?
So my ideas lack forethought, yet it's difficult for you to believe that I didn't grasp the setup at that time?
Uhh, what I'm saying is that we SHOULD HAVE BEEN scumhunting instead. Players can slip - people can learn information about your role if you reveal enough of your mindset, even unintentionally. As it was, discussion was at a standstill - nobody was attempting to reveal anything about their motives, and no one was looking into them. This is a misrepresentation of what I said.
Scumtells don't work on me. Ask Arti.
Flailing how? If the people voting me are not logical, why on earth would I acknowledge them? What is there to rebut if there is no logic present? What would you like me to respond to?
The lack of scumhunting involved in everything you had done up to that point.
Is this a rhetorical question? I hope it is.
Please do. And from what I've seen, you have yet to explain how my behavior is scummy in the slightest. All you've said is, "this is what I was doing, not what you're saying," "you flailed," (which was incorrect), "here have a misrep," and "you're not scumhunting."
Classic "X is scum, VOTE Y", am I right?
But why? What do you perceive my mindset to be?
When will you be able to contribute?
Last time I checked, not completely, but it can be.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Misspoke, I guess. I meant that you were trying to prevent me. Obviously it didn't stop me, because I repeated my theory once and quoted it twice trying to get you to comment on it.
Fair. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but it's an answer.
But if I didn't point it out and E_P did indeed answer, it's a boon for the scum. You get to probe into E_P's head, but the scum get two free ideas, one or both of which could be good and possibly more threatening to the town than whatever goals they currently are persuing. I mean, I know I'm new to the game and all, but to me it just seems logical to stop that kind of situation before it happens.
Maybe not upset. Disappointed that you didn't. Prodding folks is fun. If you get info from it, it's just a little bit more fun.
But I'd prefer if you did it while responding to whatever else is in the post you quote. That's where I got hung up. You bypassed my posts to reverse the situation without commenting on what else I was saying, which I found suspicious.
I did. Not so much questioning, but I repeated my theory then quoted it to you to see what you'd say.
Well, from this exchange and from Albus' recent posts you're starting to look less scummy and Albus moreso. I'm not sure if you're the correct lynch for today. We'll have to see how Albus handles himself first, I guess.
Anti-town first because of the fishing on E_P to get him to say out in the open what the best moves for the scum could be. You say that you were just trying to see if E_P would make that bad move, but if he does make that move I think the gains to the scum (possible inspiration and/or new thoughts on how to proceed) would be higher than what the town gains (chance to poke around inside E_P's head). It just seems off to me.
Second because I perceived you as deflecting instead of directly commenting on my posts, though after some of your recent answers I'm thinking maybe I was a little overenthusiastic about that. Still, in the most recent version of my notes (I updated them yesterday, now that I look at them) you've got more scum points than townie points.
NotedUnderstood.{Magic: The RPG}
Iso is thinking like scum and trying to pretend to be a noob, while steering us towards bad actions. You were going after him for scumtells that honestly didn't make sense and are also null-tells just because it's Iso.
poggydude is scummy, but there isn't a lot of meta on him to back it up. Claiming in your first post is just a flat out bad action no matter how you spin it though. I also intentionally neglected to say that you are scum if Iso is town. That's because the evidence doesn't support that. If Iso is scum, it would be very odd of a relatively new player to try and bus him to death so early in the game when he's such a useful scumbuddy. That is why you would be likely town if he flipped scum. There is no correlation the opposite direction.
If they did that, we would immediately know to lynch them. Now that I know you are new, I don't mind explaining things like this. Scum don't like to hammer, because it tends to give off a lot of information. Especially if two of them hammered together in a fashion that seemed at all co-ordinated, we would know they were scumbuddies.
The only danger comes from town acting illogically and quickhammering without thought. Especially because they would likely be lynched for the reason mentioned above.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You want coins. You came barreling into the thread practically begging for them, but playing the innocent (some have called it "noob") card. This reads to me like a brazen "Iso gambit" and I'm more than willing to lynch you for it.
I find this scummy, partially for specific reasons I feel compelled to shut up about (suffice it to say echoes of the past). I can't make this any more clear: My. Vote. Stays.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
It's an opinion I have had over the years. I notice town tends to yell and be more uncontrollable and panicy then scum. Scum tend to be more controlled in how they post and are more careful to not make waves.
I don't think much about what I'm posting to someone, I just post what is going through my head. No fluff or pretense.
Shark and Arnn at the time, now albus.
Not sure about that. I felt like Albus jumped onto a bw for weak reasons. Seriously he wasn't even agreeing with anything that was said but voted anyways. That not only makes no sense, but it read as double talk.
??????
What are you talking about?
How is the Iso gambit different from town or scum Iso? Can you link where Iso has done scum gambits at the start of a game before?
Where did Iso play the newb card?
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
Where Iso acts like he is a confused vanilla town and agrees with poggydude's inane gambit. Then he fails to understand the set-up.
Then here:
Where he acts like he finally understands and cancels his previous idea. Iso is obviously an experienced player. Throwing out a bad idea to see who bites and then saying "oh wait, nevermind" when no one does is quite scummy. He is basically covering it up by pretending that he didn't understand what was going on, but that seems like a mistake only a noob (I.E. not Iso) would make.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Nor do I - another reason my vote hasn't moved since I put it on Albus.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That is a stretch of an imagination you have there.
When I first looked at this game I was a bit confused myself. I had to go back and reread my PM about the coins because I missed the first time I got my PM. Then I slowly had to reread the mechanics again. That is not playing the newb card that is in my thoughts Iso being eager and not reading the game carefully post. (IE: typically Iso)
Yeah, my vote's not moving anytime soon either.
Mostly because I will be on LA.
But seriously don't like the comment from Albus
This is a big load of crap. Calling Iso scum because of pretending to be a noob, but everyone knows Iso.......seriously!!! But Poggy meta makes it likely that Poggy's gambit was just a gambit.
I don't know why more people are not voting Albus at this point.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
Because there is no evidence to support a hypothesis of me being scum. The fact that you disagree with me doesn't make me scum. The fact that I think Iso is scummy doesn't make me scum. (as much as he would have you believe otherwise) The fact that I've been thinking my posts through doesn't make me scum. Have you considered your reasons for voting me from a logical perspective instead of an emotional one?
Iso said it himself, when someone tries to hunt him he turns it around on them. Basically the only reason I'm being voted for at all is because Iso is very persuasive.
I agree with MirrorEntity on cases. It's important to post your thoughts and motivations, especially when voting. That's different from trying to case someone though. Primarily, the former reveals information about yourself. The latter is mostly just used as a tool to get people lynched regardless of alignment.
The "u-turn" comes from reading poggy's meta... Seeing that he does something absolutely pointless at the start of every game makes this less of a scum tell. The fact that he gave out important information keeps it from being a null-tell however. That action can be nothing besides anti-town and will probably hurt us eventually. I'm rather partial to the idea that poggydude and Iso are both scum. My level of conviction has reduced somewhat though, which explains my current non-voting status.
I think the reason you're being voted is because you're scummy. I was hunting you long before you even said my name in the thread.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Albus (3) - Iso, Emo_Pinata, pinkys_brain
Iso (2) - Artifice 101, poggydude
Artifice 101 (1) - SharkFinnigan
It takes 7 to Lynch with 12 alive.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Everyone lumps my bad gambits together as poggy being poggy but my gambits often have a point to them that evryone ignores. In this case withholding info just because it is the only secret seems awful. This way we prevent the scum from lying right from the get go. We lock actions in, we allow for a starting point for any paper trails that might form. We know when we will be seeing our bonus coins from deaths and we will know who we can give coins to to get to the vig shot faster.
Being mum about your coin amount because "hurr hurr we keep the scum in the dark on one small detail" is the dumbest thing i've heard. Using my plan we can potentially weed out liars and lock scum into things they don't want to be locked into.
But whatever, let fear guide you.
if the scum lie about their amounts we catch them when they try to claim having done something. We see who has given who coins and we do the math.
Reveling later has little benefit since we already lost all of our chances at proper bookkeeping, we lose out on who did what and it become a big undecipherable mess.
And how will we know if they have or haven't done something? How will that catch them in a lie? It's not possible to catch a scum in a lie regarding their abilities, because they're all anonymous. For us to find out how many coins they truly have, they'll have to be dead. You're proposing that after we kill a scum and find out he was lying we shout "HA! Caught you in a lie, corpsey! What're you going to do about, you dead fool! You can't do anything, can you? Nope! Because you're dead!"
?
Except if the scum lie about their amounts the first time! Again, the only way we have to figure out who is lying about their amounts is when they die.
What you're propsing sounds like you want everyone to announce every ability they used every night. Which they can lie about, and nobody will be able to tell. How does that promote bookkeeping, when we can't prove or disprove it. The scum could simply say "I didn't do anything last night" and nobody could prove them wrong.
And then there's this. The first sentence reads "poor me, everyone dismisses my ideas."
The rest is more or less untrue, because everything is anonymous and most of it is unproveable.
Preemptively (and postemptively) dismissing arguments against you by calling them stupid.
So everyone who doesn't agree with you is a coward?
Double FoS: poggy
This sudden surge of aggressive pushing for a bad plan isn't filling me with confidence.
{Magic: The RPG}
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You tell everyone who has the most coins... Then the scum kill them. The coins then go into te pot and get distributed to the scum. It's the same thing as outing power roles in any other set-up, except here it also gives the scum abilities.
i scumhunt best when everything is about me:D