I personally prefer allotting for a larger amount of possibilities rather than tunneling on 2-3 people.
What? That doesn't make sense at all. Everyone can do something suspicious, but we also work with the knowledge that there's usually finite amount of scum in the game. You've defended me before for saying that there aren't neutrals/SK's in this game because it's a basic and we both have knowledge of basics. So you must know that basics have always had 3 scum 9 town right?
So, you are willing to throw suspicion around to multiple people, more than three, easy, knowing for a fact that some of them have got to be town, even under the best scenario where you cast suspicion on all of the scum too? Assuming you aren't scum that is.
The reason that it's more reasonable to have 2-3 suspects is because we analyze things. Scum don't. They will point out any little thing they catch that will create suspicion on somebody, but the town will take the suspicion and REASON how scummy/townie that makes a person. Town normally only have 2-3 because they are calling out who they think has done the scummiest things, even if everyone has done a few scummy things. That's not tunnelvision, it's a process of analysis. Tunnelvision is when you have one read and you won't let up on it.
That being said, you made it to my suspects list. Enjoy your stay.
While at first it seems easy to throw your suspicion of Techno to wind he has exhibited far too many scum tells to escape the rope. I know, I did it my self. I thought I'd cut him some slack for being new, but when I re-read, so many of his posts just screamed rookie scum tell. As a player gets more experienced they learn to avoid the obvious scum tells, but an inexperienced player doesn't know what to avoid. So you find yourself with varying levels of scumtells. The bottom layer of scumtells are the classic ones you always here about, but after a few games of seeing those used, a more experienced player learns to avoid them and the avoidance of those scumtells becomes a scumtell in itself. So now that it has been established by Techno that he is in fact a newb I think the most obvious of scumtells will apply to him at this point.
So here's the most basic scumtells I find him guilty of:
1. Opportunistic voting: He is eager to lynch the "Easy Lynch" at the time (Ahylis).
2. Over concerned with his "Appearance": In post #14 he says, "I hate to appear lynch happy". The problem is that "Appearance" only matters to scum. Town just hates to be lynch happy, they don't care what the "appear" to be.
3. Fence-sitting: While he continues to push the Ahylis lynch early in the game he goes back and forth on him being town or not.
4. True Self-Preservation Concerns: Not just survival votes, but he is truly concerned about being killed at night. In post #49 he practically begs Ahylis not to kill him at night, which leads to the next point:
5. Directing the Doctor: He begs the Doctor to protect him at night because he is "Confirmed Town". This is done by rookie scum to try to secure a successful NK without concern for a Doc Stop.
6. Rolefishing: In post #61 he demands Ahylis claims for realsies. He also speculates on other players roles on a couple occasions.
7. Over-reaction to votes/Panic Claim: After a single vote, he panics and claims (#65). This is done by rookie-scum because they are paranoid and defensive that people are "On to them".
8. Over-Exaggerating his Towness: There are too many examples of this to list from his post history, but he pretty much claims "Strongest Town" and "Confirmed Town" several times. This is overplaying his towness in attempt to seem less scummy.
9. Overstating his Noobness: This is a rookie scum excuse for being scummy. I've used it myself before. Additionally, he claims uber-newber, but then uses some pretty token catch phrases, like "Ahylis isn't scumhunting," or "he's jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon"
10. Activity Decline under pressure: When the fire gets hot rookie-scum back away.
So I think it is our best course of action to lynch Techno. The fact that he has made all these scum tells already either tells us he's rookie scum or a liability in the future if he's town. If he is town, he has already put us at a disadvantage by playing as he has, if he's scum... one down X to go.
I like this post. I like the reasoning at the end. He's been pinging my scumdar for a few different things throughout the day, but I keep getting distracted every time I come in the thread. I was meaning to get a collection of his posts and reread them, but now that's on my must-do list, not only to confirm my suspicion but to check how sound your reasoning is too, mister.
You're assuming that he's scum and you know what he's doing.
I'm not assuming anything, and just taking his suspicions as what they are- suspicions.
If his actions ever parallel yours and gricky's theory, then we'll deal with that when it happens. As of right now, you're both being ridiculous, and by making such a big deal of this, ensuring that, if he is scum, he won't make that mistake later on.
Um, ensuring that he won't make the mistake later on? He's already made it bucko. That's really the end of that story.
Also, I would like you to point out where I was sure that he was scum? I know I said what he did is a scumtell, but I don't recall ever jumping to scum and calling for some rope.
Why are you being so defensive of Rith? Where's he on your T/S list?
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MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
So, uhm, was the insinuation that I'm scum retracted there, theatog? Cause, well, I can't possibly provide proof that Pdr really just slipped my mind. So, if you aren't gonna take it on faith, and his exemption puts me in the scum camp, well, you might as well do something about it.
I'm simply pointing out the fact that you can describe him with "slipped my mind" actually supports that he's more scummy than towny, not the other way around.
In my experience, activities almost always proportional to scumminess. Of course the the more you post, the more "dirt" or "off" you will feel whereas not posting won't generate anything. And I would say that should be pretty apparent by the time you are playing your third game, but who am I to "insinuate" anything according to experience.
So basically, all i'm saying is: your "XXX is scummy", list of scummy people, is a big "Duh". Not necessarily scumtell but definitely noncontent in some people's eyes.
Mind if I ask why you seem to be extra defensive though? Not sure i'm reading it right but I don't think my "response" deserves a response like that.
We're not in a stage right now where we're focusing in on a single person. Right now, any views on any person can be helpful. I don't approve of gricky's attack on Rith because of that post.
Of course I know that.
He's pointing reasons he thinks people are scummy. Are you doing any differently right now with me?
I find it better to acknowledge all the possibilities.
Are there cookies?
Fine. If you feel that way.
You're jumping on my words too.
He's neutral. I have no real read on him.
First, if he's neutral, why are you defending him instead of letting him answer the points I make. I would understand if you thought he was town and you were defending him, but wouldn't his responses to suspicion be a good way to move him off the neutral list and get a better picture of the town?
Aside from that, whether I'm jumping on words or not, you claimed that not one but two people are just assuming that a player is scum. How can you justify that statement? Especially when neither of us outright called him scum. We were noting our suspicions just as everyone else is doing, and you fly in for the defense. It reads unnatural.
Lastly, when you say that it's better to acknowledge all possibilities, are you arguing that when you post your T/S lists in this game, players with any tiny amount of suspicion are going to be equal to the players who have been scummy all game? Because what I'm arguing is that the town weighs options and considers all suspicion, then decides what's the most suspicious. Scum look for anything suspicious and try to make it seem like it deserves the lynch. That's one main way the scum mislynch. So you saying that you are going to acknowledge all possibilities and earlier arguing that the more possibilities, the better is indicative of a scummy mindset. To me at least. I just don't like it when players try to spread more suspicion than needed, it's fearmongering and as I've already explained, a scum tactic.
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Techno makes me cringe, so much that I'm beginning to think he is newb scum and not newb town. I'll expand on this in a bit.
I'm second guessing my initial double fakies call on Ahylis as I have caught scent of a ulterior pro-town reasoning behind his gambit.
I don't like Freddeh's and Rithaniel's shotgun accusations.
I think post #97 by Rithaniel is extremely suspicious because of how he pushes techno-town. This feels forced and like buddying/white-knighting to me.
I like Gricky, but that's probably because he is my MuP.
I think Survival Votes are null tells leaning town tells. In my experience scum tend to throw up their hands and give up near-lynch and town will try to fight it. The logic behind that is that, as a town player, you are the only person you know 100% to be town, so your lynch only guarantees a loss to the town, while the lynch of another player does not give you that same guarantee.
Can you explain what this 'ulterior pro-town reasoning' might be, that you have supposedly caught wiff of?
Can you explain what this 'ulterior pro-town reasoning' might be, that you have supposedly caught wiff of?
Ahylis asked the same and I'm not going to answer either of you because there's a reason I didn't spell it out in the first place. In fact, if I'm right, which I almost always am, it was very clever by Ahylis.
Also, I saw you posting in Mafiascum and there was no newb flag being flown there as far as I can tell. I'm sure you're rookie scum. Was this your first game as scum?
Ahylis asked the same and I'm not going to answer either of you because there's a reason I didn't spell it out in the first place. In fact, if I'm right, which I almost always am, it was very clever by Ahylis.
And apparently very accidental as I really had no idea I was doing it as any type of gambit beyond thinking it would be fun to mess with people's minds a bit.
And apparently very accidental as I really had no idea I was doing it as any type of gambit beyond thinking it would be fun to mess with people's minds a bit.
That's all I want to leave it at. Moving on... let's lynch Techno and call it a day.
You are saying you fabricated the PM, yeah? And you fabricated it off the flavour from your town PM?
I see only one solution to this problem.
If the rules state you can post PM's, then post your real, Town PM right now, and everyone will know you are town for the rest of the game. And no one will else will have that opportunity, because they can simply copy/paste.
Vanilla – You have no ability beyond your ability to vote.
Never has a goopy, orange blob ever fascinated me more. The gonads of the sea urchin are the best food there is bar-none, and really is what made more interested in exotic foods. It’s eaten raw and provides a distinctive flavor that puts other fatty foods to shame. It’s hard to convey why it’s so good, since outwardly everything about it is entirely unappealing, but any culture positioned where Sea Urchins live eat the heck out of them. In omelettes, in stews and sauces, with olive oil, with lemon juice, or even with Salmon eggs as sashimi I will always order it (if I can afford to).
You win when all threats are eliminated.
Confirm by responding to this PM.
Quote from PK »
Did you really feel it necessary to role claim because of a single vote on you that you didn't even wait two minutes for me to explain?
Quote from Tech »
Nope. I just realised I had set myself up. I had obviously realised that one person could definitely reveal that they are town, and I voiced that. If I didn't respond and do it before someone else, and held back, I would be assumed mafia and lynched.
I had to do it, and do it quick, without thinking, even though now I have no benefit of assurance that a single player is definitely town, other than myself.
Quote from Tech »
And in doing so probably doomed myself to a mafia kill, because town would be stupid to vote me out now; hence, I am the strongest town player. So either way, I ****ed myself.
Quote from Tech »
WIFOM?
Yeah, I realise I have ****ed myself. Should have rolled with the punches and said I wasn't willing to quote mine for reasons that my current predicament possesses.
Quote from Tech »
Definitely hoping this game has a doc now...
Quote from Tech »
If I was mafia, I'd probably NK me.
And people would believe you didn't fabricate a vanilla Town post, if you produced it, because it would correlate with their vanilla town post, and thus could not be fabricated. Unless there are a ton of town roles, the majority of town now know I am town.
And I still don't believe you, sorry, so my vote sticks. If we find a mafia before the end of the day, I am 100% voting for them over now, seeing as I don't believe you'd NK me now, as you would have little need to.
Quote from Tech »
dude, of course it would be! if i made up a bunch of crap that looked good, any vanilla townie could look at his and see its difference, hence he knows im lying, and all the vanilla townies would instantly want to lynch. I cannot be lying, unless i am as stupid as ****. and now i know for almost certain, you arent vanilla town.
This is pretty much the defining exchange(s) I think involving Tech.
I'll try to break down the madness within:
1. We can quote our role PMs.
2. Quoting our role PMs will confirm us as town, but
3. ??? (logical chasm)
4. It will only work for the first person who does it.
5. Ahl should post his PM to confirm himself.
6. He has a single vote.
7. This single vote puts him under pressure.
8. He roleclaims to protect himself, given he is "under danger."
If you think Tech is mafia, this is a gambit he constructed to fool us. If you look at the chain of thinking and reasoning he lists, I struggle to envision Tech as this WIFOM layering mastermind - he an opinion that doesn't mesh well with what the actual consequences of posting your role PM are.
The last couple of quotes about a doctor, I find hard to think they're not sincere. The exchange, while it is constructed on very bad ideas, the onus for it and ultimately elaboration seems genuine.
I don't think he understands why his post doesn't confirm him, but that means he would only perform the action as town. I find it really, really hard to justify lynching him given his "confused town slips."
But your stunt won't buy you that much down the road. Just my opinion of course.
I don't really think it's that hard to be definitive on this issue to need a "jmo."
Quote from Ahl »
Well, I've gotten a LOT of laughs out of it. In fact, each time I read the first part of the thread, I start busting up all over again.
When I get trolled, I get trolled hard.
Quote from Gamerz »
I don't know why anyone thinks he's confirmed. So he showed his role PM? It's possible he faked it, the outline for it is given in the first couple of posts, so it'd be easy for him to just change a few things and make it look town.
Is what you posted exactly what's written in your Role PM TeCch?
It's not that the role PM "confirms" him, now replaced out player - it's the series of posts and his opinions.
Quote from Tech »
I didn't consider the fact that all our PMs might be different, but I doubt it. Yeah, that's it. I'm guessing you aren't vanilla town, either.
Oh, there you go. Bank it.
If you're gonna flip Tech coins and try to hit "absurd gambling scum with an ingenious multilayer master plan" over "confused town," you are a very poor gambler.
Quote from Gamerz »
That seems even more suspicious...as if you wanted the heat off of you...I mean, you gave up that role pm pretty quickly...without anyone even asking you. Not to mention that you're trying to out people that you think aren't vanilla town.
Perhaps I'm on the only one who sees how this puzzle adds together, but his explanation of his thinking (universal vanilla role PM) makes sense with what he actually did. More "hate" for him I don't think is appropriate - I will say I dislike the early claim, but the overall "town slip" weighs heavily in his favor.
Quote from The Atog »
hm........... what about the fact that he actually DID copy his whole PM and just tweak a few things....
That seems a bit narrow minded. How Ahlyis came up with either a fake or true role PM seems like the worst place to analyze the situation. Townleading much?
What would you call any post?
Quote from The Atog »
LOL from where I came from, these offense are punishable by death.
i mean fishing, and instaclaiming, not PMquoting.
Fishing? No. Claiming for no reason, sure.
Quote from Tech »
I didn't consider the fact that all our PMs might be different, but I doubt it. Yeah, that's it. I'm guessing you aren't vanilla town, either.
Quote from Gamerz »
Ok.
Vote TeChNoWC
I am almost certain that he is mafia.
I am almost certain I really dislike the few posts you made - if you actually read through and think about the (confusing) thing he did, voting him there doesn't make much sense.
Quote from Ahl »
I agree with you. Between his fishing for role info and his insistence that somehow he couldn't possibly have fake claimed, he's a far better Day 1 lynch than Mzztr is right now.
Unvote. Vote: Techno
I considered waiting until Monday to give more people time to read the thread, but it's not like there's a ton of votes on Techno yet and he's in danger of being quick lynched.
It's more like he didn't think through the idea of all the town vanilla PMs were different.
As for fishing - fishing to get people confirmed is a fair trade and yeah, I don't really like the fishing on Gamerz but I can see him being naturally curious/overspeaking.
Quote from Gricky »
Would also like to hear more from PK on the matter of Ahlyis.
Now leading more negative than positive.
...
I feel like this Tech wagon is being run up so effectively due to support from scum eager to feast upon a lynch on a new player who will struggle to defend himself from his incoherent and errant posts. Then once he hangs and he flips town, they'll go, "Oh, well, he deserved a lynch - he did a lot of bad things" ignoring the greater context of his misapprehensions that actually look very good for him and make a "scum Tech" hard to pass through credibility.
Quote from Ahl »
More of the assuming I was setting a trap.
I still hate this - you said you were expecting "that kind of response, but not from [me]." You knew you were laying a trap.
Quote from Ahl »
Is role fishing NOT a lynch worthy action here? At Px2 we'd probably already have lynched him for it! (Well, maybe not that quickly, but he'd definitely be taking more heat for it than he seems to be here.)
Where are all these games we lynch people for fishing...? Usually it goes "hey don't fish" "kk" "lol lynch someone who is posting" "crap they were town QQ."
Quote from The Atog »
Your claim that it was "just for laugh" seems like an after-thought to patch things out. Why claim joke now when everything seems to be falling apart? Bad timing?
Vote: Ahlyis
Good post.
Quote from Ahl »
You're right. It wasn't a joke. That really is my role PM and I was just too stupid to understand it. My first post was honest confusion, not a joke.
P.S. I've got a nice bridge for sale.
More like you're lying about it being a gambit, rather than you really posting that as your real PM.
Quote from Mzzt »
Unvote
I'm no longer as sure of you based off of your more recent responses.
?
Quote from SJT »
So in an attempt to be awesome I'm calling double fakies on Ahylis and call for a meta review on Techno. Ahylis has done stuff like this before, where he honestly claims and then says that it was obviously a fake when it wasn't.
1. He has?
2. This is a basic on MTGS, you don't need to worry about neutrals or SKs in this game.
Quote from Gricky »
The phrasing here is what makes me think it's a gambit, like you were expecting someone to jump on you and your planned response was a vote. I can see though how your vote on PK was only because he is your Px2 buddy and you expected better from him. It still feels Gambity though.
+1
Quote from Fred »
LoL PK took it seriously. PK reaction is interesting, but nothing to look too far into.
QQ
Quote from Fred »
Page 3: Uh, guys, theres a sample role PM that says 'threats'. Claiming someone is town because they said their pm said 'threats' just means that they're not dumb scum.
lol
Quote from Fred »
Page 5: Vote: Techno False dilemma as PK mentioned, in addition remember when I mentioned him playing 'overseer'? It just kicked into overdrive here. Especially considering anyone can make up a random role using the sample PM. Even more especially with a vanilla role. The way hes trying to control town with how hes playing is striking me as a newb scum.
Quote from SJT »
Ok, I want to go back and look at the Techno wagon. It's pretty obvious he's a noob, I want to see who is taking advantage of that.
This is amusing in hindsight.
Quote from PK »
In this grand plan you see me unleashing, what exactly is the next step from me?
Quote from Ahl »
I don't know. It's your plan. But at a guess, I'd expect some form of continued attack...
I'm criticizing you for still finding the action suspicious, even after I explained why I was alarmed as I was. When I ask what kind of motive or plan I could have possibly had, given you were implying I was trying to make a sinister exploit against you, you have no answer and say it's my plan. That is a nonanswer and doesn't "solve" any problem.
Quote from SJT »
I think I'll get on the Ahylis wagon I'm calling double fakies on him.
UNVOTE, VOTE: Ahylis
Impressed?
No, not at all.
Quote from Fred »
As far as an update on SJT...I actually don't even know what to think about him anymore, he might be being too obvious to actually be scum, but then maybe hes hoping his bad posts will get lost?
To obvious...? I don't really like this train of thought, "maybe his bad posts will be lost." Iffy comment to look back on if SJT flips scum.
Quote from Tech »
Bad vibe why? I see his suspicions as relevant.
How many scum do YOU think are in this game? What do you hope to garner from asking this question to someone who stated they are a newbie?
Quote from Ahl »
Yeah, let's not ask questions of newbies. There's a good strategy!
I was just about to vote for PK, but I think I'm going to come back to you instead. Voting for you makes more sense as a survival vote, but with this latest post I think you're scummier than PK at this point anyway.
Vote: Tech
I don't like the level of dislike for Tech combined with what you actually know from him in thread.
Quote from PDR »
Rithaniel you made a list of people you thought are scummy so I would like to know your opinions on the remaining players.
PDRs first.
Quote from Ahl »
Survival votes are EXPECTED over at Px2, for ANY alignment. True, there are times when it is better to take the lynch than try to push it off, but on Day 1? I'm not aware of any reasons I should want to die, especially over someone I think may be scum.
I agree with this not only in a description of Px2 behavior, but in theory as well.
Quote from Ahl »
They aren't? Where'd you get this info?
MTGS doesn't put neutral players into basic games, as a general "thing." One has never happened before.
Quote from PDR »
Survival voting is common practive in Px2 although without a deadline for today Ahlyis could have continued to vote for PK and changed his vote only when the Mod had posteed the deadline.
Sure. "Early survival voting" is not OK in Px2.
Quote from Tetris »
You need to shut up about this whole newb thing. It's ticking me off.
Why so irritable?
Quote from SJT »
I'm re-reading the game and this was LoL worthy. PK knows what I'm talking about.
QQ
Quote from SJT »
I'm second guessing my initial double fakies call on Ahylis as I have caught scent of a ulterior pro-town reasoning behind his gambit.
1. He thought Ahl claimed scum. That's going after the "easy lynch" in the same way voting a cop investigation is.
2. OK.
3. Isn't there one instance of him showing signs of believing Ahl was town then going back to SK, not several?
4. I'm going to chalk this up to being extremely uninformed about mafia - he's rawer at the game than most and he seems to be thinking from a singular perspective instead of a team one.
5. That's pretty much the same point as 4.
6. Because he believes it will confirm Ahl as town.
7. OK.
8. He thought the vanilla thing would validate his claim.
9. OK + Ehhh, and big "really don't care" on catchphrases.
10. I didn't notice a steep drop in decline, but there isn't any sourcing here for me to disagree/check with.
You listed ten things as a "a lot of reasons to lynch Tech" but they really aren't that compelling when you break them down. Volume over any sort of quality from you here - you have a case against a player who can't defend himself well, stuff it full of a nice list without any kind of quotation or backing behind it.
When you consider the actual context of Tech's posting and his claim, your list falters.
I also really, really despise:
Quote from SJT »
So I think it is our best course of action to lynch Techno. The fact that he has made all these scum tells already either tells us he's rookie scum or a liability in the future if he's town. If he is town, he has already put us at a disadvantage by playing as he has, if he's scum... one down X to go.
He hasn't put at us at any kind of real, tangible disadvantage by being new. Any kind of "dragging down effect" he would have if town is more than compensated for by being a fresh body in the way of losing. Making pre-emptive excuses as to why it's OK to kill him anyway if he's town is a big red flag.
...
For someone so assertive, Mzzt isn't doing or proposing or impacting much.
...
Quote from Gricky »
What's MuP?
Gimmick.
Quote from SJT »
Ahylis asked the same and I'm not going to answer either of you because there's a reason I didn't spell it out in the first place. In fact, if I'm right, which I almost always am, it was very clever by Ahylis.
I'll have a grain of salt with my SJT.
Quote from SJT »
Also, I saw you posting in Mafiascum and there was no newb flag being flown there as far as I can tell. I'm sure you're rookie scum. Was this your first game as scum?
That would be pretty damning evidence. Link the goods? And date of playing?
Quote from SJT »
That's all I want to leave it at. Moving on... let's lynch Techno and call it a day.
You've made some compelling arguments. I'll respond to your big post in a moment. But first I wanted to get out that I agree with you calling for a link from SJT.
If he can provide one, I'm sticking with my Techno vote regardless of your counter argument. If he can't, then SJT jumps way up on the scum list and I'll unvote Techno.
SJT, link to proof that Techno has played elsewhere please.
Read the first two pages, everything pretty much is just a continuation of that.
Two pages at what ppp?
Also I just looked at the player rundown. Since I only recognize 4 names, I'm assuming this is the game where there's a bunch of people coming in from another forum, correct?
Perhaps I'm on the only one who sees how this puzzle adds together, but his explanation of his thinking (universal vanilla role PM) makes sense with what he actually did. More "hate" for him I don't think is appropriate - I will say I dislike the early claim, but the overall "town slip" weighs heavily in his favor.
I admit it, that was something that wasn't clicking for me. With the idea he thought all Vanilla roles had the same role PM, it does lend some credence to him being Town.
If he truly is a newb, I'll buy it, for now. But if SJT can show he's not a newb, then it becomes a calculated gambit on his part and actually makes him scummier in my eyes. It all hinges on whether he really is a complete newb or not.
he did a lot of bad things" ignoring the greater context of his misapprehensions that actually look very good for him and make a "scum Tech" hard to pass through credibility.
I think this only has any merit if SJT cannot provide proof that Techno isn't really the Newb he claims to be.
I still hate this - you said you were expecting "that kind of response, but not from [me]." You knew you were laying a trap.
Fine. I was laying a trap. I admit that. But only on the condition you accept that it was a trap intended to catch non-Px2 players, not a trap intended to catch Scum/Town players. My "trap" wasn't laid with the intent of finding someone to vote over it. That wasn't my expectation, even if that does seem to have come about as a result of all the discussion over it. The initial "trap" though was only intended to fool non-Px2 players, regardless of their alignment.
When I think of a "trap", I think of one intended to help Town identify a player's alignment (or to mislead Town if it is a Scum trap). This "trap" was not intended or expected to do that at all.
Also I just looked at the player rundown. Since I only recognize 4 names, I'm assuming this is the game where there's a bunch of people coming in from another forum, correct?
Correct.
Almost half of us came over from Paranoia Paradise on the wizards.com forums.
Quick post to say a few things. First, I'm not actually a gimmick, I'm an alt, but I figured the name would WIFOM a good few people to make them think about it.
Second, I like PK's mass post, but I haven't read it. I stopped at a few points and he makes some excellent observations regarding the Tech situation. Still, one mass-townie post doesn't really make up for all the lurking he's done so far. Just keep that in mind. Keep up the content and we're golden, PK.
Third, Hi W_G.
Finally, you Px2er's played with Gamerz, right? Did he have a tendency to absolutely hate being scum? Because I'm wondering why a player who set up an account and came over here with his friends for a special game off their site and was given auto-in status would suddenly lurk hard and replace out. What's Gamerz like? I'm not one to take replacement speculation very seriously, but in this case it could be very telling.
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MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
He was very aggressive and controlling early on in this game as well, only backing off after getting heat for it. It still strikes me as more suspicious than anything, and backing off makes it seem like my thoughts were correct.
Also FoS: Ahlyis because it looks like you've been trying to turn this into a 'Px2 vs non-Px2' day 1, which is very anti-town imo. I didn't look into it much until you started explaining yourself, but when you started calling it a 'trap' to catch non-px2 players...I have to question your intent.
By popular demand, I'll keep things up as long as I can avoid more physical labor.
Quote from Gricky »
Finally, you Px2er's played with Gamerz, right? Did he have a tendency to absolutely hate being scum? Because I'm wondering why a player who set up an account and came over here with his friends for a special game off their site and was given auto-in status would suddenly lurk hard and replace out. What's Gamerz like? I'm not one to take replacement speculation very seriously, but in this case it could be very telling.
He's not a Px2 guy. Never played with him before.
I will agree with the idea that his prior posts were rather lame and bad.
Re: SJT's game link. That's pretty interesting - he does appear more aware and cognizant, less confused about the game. I'd like to hear from Tech himself.
Seems very different from our Techno to me. Hard to tell, what with it being an ongoing game or not. He could be town in that one and scum in this one, and vice versa. Slightly WIFOMy in that regard.
My main point isn't that he's playing dumb, my main point is that he is probably still a rookie, but has never been scum before. Therefore, he exhibits the simplest of scumtells which are often written off as Nubian. Notice how often he posts there with no heat on him and during the same time period here when he has heavy heat he doesn't post much at all?
My main point isn't that he's playing dumb, my main point is that he is probably still a rookie, but has never been scum before. Therefore, he exhibits the simplest of scumtells which are often written off as Nubian. Notice how often he posts there with no heat on him and during the same time period here when he has heavy heat he doesn't post much at all?
I really think it's playing dumb or bust. If he's really new, then the whole "thought all PMs were the same argument" is still very valid.
Lot to reply to, basically I have been posting less in here because I'm now in five other games on mafiascum and as is is taking up ****loads of time (as stinky managed to locate one). Coupled with this, I have three major assessments for uni. Obviously an unwise decision, and I will probably have to replace out of some of newest games.
Basically I can also sum up my mentality with; I am agressive and assertive when I feel in control and not suspected, and not when I am, regardless of whether I am town or not, but even more so when I am town. Not sure why, but that's how it is. I take flak better as mafia because I know it is true, whereas flak received as town just feels personal, because I have nothing to act scummy about. Not something I like about my playstyle and it is frustrating, but that's what I tend to do. Take the thread you referenced for instance; not sure if I am allowed to claim about that game, but I am town. I felt comfortable as town until the minute I received a vote, and then resorted to short posts with little content. Once I've received flak, I just can't shake feeling scummy. Probably suggests I am not that good at mafia, but anyway.
Will try and catch up with this game sometime tommorrow. Feel free to read as much meta on me as you want, it's all there on my mafiascum account, but yeah, all still ongoing games atm.
He was very aggressive and controlling early on in this game as well, only backing off after getting heat for it. It still strikes me as more suspicious than anything, and backing off makes it seem like my thoughts were correct.
Also FoS: Ahlyis because it looks like you've been trying to turn this into a 'Px2 vs non-Px2' day 1, which is very anti-town imo. I didn't look into it much until you started explaining yourself, but when you started calling it a 'trap' to catch non-px2 players...I have to question your intent.
Christ. I probably ought to just give up.
Are you intentionally misrepping things? Or do you honestly think I said that? Do you have no concept of what "context" means?
Do I sound a bit ticked off? Well, yeah, I'm getting there. Again.
Deep breaths.
Deep breaths.
1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10...
Okay, I feel a bit calmer now.
Freddeh, what do you mean by "trap" in that quote? What do you mean by "catch"?
Yes, I freely admit I expected to "catch" non-Px2 players in my "trap". But there's no negative connotations in either of those words. "catch" isn't tied to "intended to find someone to vote for" and "trap" doesn't equate to "intended for use as a scumhunting tool".
Instead "catch" is more equivalent to "trick into believing" and "trap" is more like "april fool's joke".
So yes, as I've been trying to say all along, I intended to trick non-Px2'ers into believing my newb claim with my April Fool's type joke.
I'm not the one that keeps insisting on calling my fake claim a "trap", "gambit" or anything else. Everyone else keeps trying to force those descriptions onto it. All I did was finally cave in and accept those definitions as long as it was understood they needed to be used in a different context than the standard Mafia context for those words.
So what do you do? You come along and immediately take my words OUT of the context they were intended in and then try to use them against me in a Mafia context.
Fine. I was laying a trap. I admit that. But only on the condition you accept that it was a trap intended to catch non-Px2 players, not a trap intended to catch Scum/Town players. My "trap" wasn't laid with the intent of finding someone to vote over it. That wasn't my expectation, even if that does seem to have come about as a result of all the discussion over it. The initial "trap" though was only intended to fool non-Px2 players, regardless of their alignment.
When I think of a "trap", I think of one intended to help Town identify a player's alignment (or to mislead Town if it is a Scum trap). This "trap" was not intended or expected to do that at all.
So everyone keeps saying. Ok, I'll accept that.
You even admitted to it here. My problem with it looks like you are using it to create a px2 vs non-px2 atmosphere, which is decidedly non-town. You can call it something intended to 'identify a player's alignment' if you want, but thats not even a good way to do it, because townies (and even Px2'ers *pokes PK*) could fall for that 'trap'.
Basically I'm calling it poor scumhunting technique. I liked it better when it was either a joke or a minor reaction troll, but the fact that its been the center of discussion almost all day amazes me.
Anyway, I'm good with either Techno or SJT lynch, both have pinged my scumdar more than Ahl has today.
I actually meant to throw that out at you long before this post, but I didn't do it when I first thought of it then forgot about this thread for a bit :\.
But after re-reading your post, it looks like it was a joke. So what in the bloody hell is the problem that has been talked about for way too long?
You even admitted to it here. My problem with it looks like you are using it to create a px2 vs non-px2 atmosphere, which is decidedly non-town. You can call it something intended to 'identify a player's alignment' if you want, but thats not even a good way to do it, because townies (and even Px2'ers *pokes PK*) could fall for that 'trap'.
Basically I'm calling it poor scumhunting technique. I liked it better when it was either a joke or a minor reaction troll, but the fact that its been the center of discussion almost all day amazes me.
OMG. You really CANNOT READ, can you?
I honestly have no idea how you could read my post and then accuse me of the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said!
Serious? If its not a trap, don't say it is. It's that simple, don't care what other people say. If it was a joke, it was a joke, stop trying to explain it as anything else.
I apologize for lurking, but work has been draining me. I've been following along as best I can, and I recall someone saying that I should know something after by third game. I would just like to say that you should take into account that I haven't garnered much "experience" from the other two game.
Also, when Sunday rolls around I'll be in here to answer a couple of questions that were asked of me. If someone could put them all in one place so I can quote and be a little more efficient with my answers, that'd be great. If not, I'll just go through and find them before I post.
Also, can we get off of Ahylis at this point? We aren't really getting anywhere with going back to his first post over and over again.
Didn't mean to rile up Ahl so much again, it was just a question of intent because it seemed like the intent had changed from the beginning of the game til now.
Just been re-worded because of people hounding him for mostly stupid reasons.
Are you voting right now Rith? If you had to pick one person to be scum, who would it be (not a list of 5 or however many you mentioned last time)?
Really though I prefer opinions, not excuses and Q&A.
Didn't mean to rile up Ahl so much again, it was just a question of intent because it seemed like the intent had changed from the beginning of the game til now.
I've just been trying to defend myself. It's hard to keep defending against people that insist on using specific words while refusing to use the same terms yourself. I tried. I tried to not call it a gimmick or trap, but when every single attack keeps calling it that, no matter what I say, I finally decided to change tacks, go with their words, but try to put them into context.
Then, the moment I do that, I get accused of admitting it was a trap/gimmick.
Work is slow today, so I'm stopping by for a quick answer for Freddeh:
If I had to vote right this instance, I'd vote Techno, as I am seeing the strongest case being against him. Also, please note that after some recent events (not related to this game), my confidence in my ability to make an accurate read is wavering, so I'd be crossing my fingers while making that vote.
However, I am widely convinced that something is up with Techno, at the very least, as he really does seem too nervous.
I'm out of the office and posting while I crap but I must say I believe rith is almost as scummy as techno and its tweaking me out that he's supporting the techno lynch. I'll expand more later.
I read to post 90 so far. My thoughts from that alone:
Techno is scum. Newb thinking is one thing, referring to him "confirming" himself, but to keep believing it when evidence to the contrary appears? No way. Especially when he claimed after a single vote.
I'm on the fence about Ahlyis. I don't like his SK gambit (no way there's an SK in a basic, btw). That alone doesn't make him scum though, and the rest of what he's done so far I don't get a read one way or the other.
PK I'm leaning town on. I'm a bit hesitant on that because he's a good player that I haven't played much with, but his posts read townie to me so far.
The rest didn't post much in the first 90 so I don't have reads yet. When I catch up the rest of the way (possibly tomorrow, possibly not; depends on if I have to get work done around the house), I'll have a full T/S list.
Work is slow today, so I'm stopping by for a quick answer for Freddeh:
If I had to vote right this instance, I'd vote Techno, as I am seeing the strongest case being against him. Also, please note that after some recent events (not related to this game), my confidence in my ability to make an accurate read is wavering, so I'd be crossing my fingers while making that vote.
However, I am widely convinced that something is up with Techno, at the very least, as he really does seem too nervous.
No nerves here. Vote away; between my inability to actively contribute to this post, unable to get accurate reads on anyone (other than Ahlyis, fingers crossed), impending doom and lack of trust amongst town, I might be a good decision for a D1 lynch. But I would argue that Ahlyis seems a better one; if he is really an SK as I predict, he is dangerous to town unless he can be used as a vig (even then it's risky).
@Wheat: You say that SKs can't be in basic. Where did you get this information?
Gricky and Atog are my townreads, for what it's worth, as I have a feeling they know I am town from my role PM.
If you do intend to hammer me though, don't do it. Try and draw the day out so you can get more reads on everyone. While my wagon has some merit, watch those that pounced on it without much thought (Stinky seems somewhat scummy to me, but at least he gave good reasoning for his vote on me).
@Wheat: You say that SKs can't be in basic. Where did you get this information?
Serial killers are notoriously hard to balance even in more complex minis, and add too much complexity for a basic game. I've seen neutrals in basics before, but only Survivors: people who win so long as they survive. Even those are extremely rare; the only example I know of was before my time, iirc.
Couple this with the fact that Ahlyis is NOT a new player and made up the role PM he posted, and we can safely bet we have no serial killer.
If I'm wrong, feel free to make me eat these words later. I doubt I'm wrong though.
Serial killers are notoriously hard to balance even in more complex minis, and add too much complexity for a basic game. I've seen neutrals in basics before, but only Survivors: people who win so long as they survive. Even those are extremely rare; the only example I know of was before my time, iirc.
Couple this with the fact that Ahlyis is NOT a new player and made up the role PM he posted, and we can safely bet we have no serial killer.
If I'm wrong, feel free to make me eat these words later. I doubt I'm wrong though.
So it's not strictly out of the formula setup or anything? I thought you were suggesting it was impossible.
Still, that is a massive point worth considering. Does the mod usually run basics? It would be best to check his basic games in particular. I assume with a game this size an SK is very possible, considering we don't know how many scum there are. If anyone has any meta on emo's previous games, that would be good, because if you are right and SK's are extremely rare or even non-existent in basic, then I am wrong about Ahlyis and will retract my vote.
So it's not strictly out of the formula setup or anything? I thought you were suggesting it was impossible.
Still, that is a massive point worth considering. Does the mod usually run basics? It would be best to check his basic games in particular. I assume with a game this size an SK is very possible, considering we don't know how many scum there are. If anyone has any meta on emo's previous games, that would be good, because if you are right and SK's are extremely rare or even non-existent in basic, then I am wrong about Ahlyis and will retract my vote.
Basics tend to adhere to a formula: 3 town PR's, 1 scum PR, 3 total scum. I have seen a VT slot dropped for a neutral survivor, and I have seen 4 town PR's and 2 scum PR's before. That's the extent of the design space so far as I know. I am in fact suggesting it's impossible, with the caveat that I might be wrong. But I have never seen it in the 8 basics I've played on this site.
Today I'm hoping to read the rest of the posts beyond 90.
Stinky: If I were scum, It'd be called 'bussing', and I'd be stupid scum to be doing it, especially when there's some minor attention pointed towards another player (you) as well.
On the subject of why I think Freddeh isn't all that scummy: Mainly this post, as it mirrors some ways that I've been thinking. He points out the 'False Dilemma' and the fact that people have been looking too far into the Ahylis thing.
Also, if that first list of potential people I posted is enough to make me still seem scummy, even after I've attempted to defend myself, then oh well, there's nothing I can do about that.
Anyways, I need to put my vote somewhere already, and after a couple of more days of thinking about it, I'm comfortable with voting Techno.
Been away for a while, planning on making a post with more substance tomorrow. Also curious to know what Wheaties finds after post 90, as that's a majority of the game with a lot of developments.
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Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Until a SK kill happens, there is no reason to assume there is a SK in the game. Especially since this is only a 12-player game, it would have to be either 2 scum and a sk to be even close to balanced, and even then it wouldn't really be unless some special roles were involved. And since this is advertised as a 'basic', I highly doubt those would be involved.
Until a SK kill happens, there is no reason to assume there is a SK in the game. Especially since this is only a 12-player game, it would have to be either 2 scum and a sk to be even close to balanced, and even then it wouldn't really be unless some special roles were involved. And since this is advertised as a 'basic', I highly doubt those would be involved.
So yeah, no SK, I'm 99% sure.
I find this line of reasoning dangerous. If Ahlyis is indeed an SK, given the flak he has received and his initial PM, i'm pretty sure he would plan to not kill, otherwise everyone WOULD know there is an SK and suspect him. Assuming that 'oh, only one NK? So Ahlyis WAS telling the truth!' would be sane reasoning had Ahlyis not POSTED HIS ROLE PM. I highly doubt he would kill now.
However, given your experience with basics and the lack of ANY evidence that there is SK's in basic, and though I still get the feeling Ahylis is an SK, I must humbling concede to logic and
Unvote
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What? That doesn't make sense at all. Everyone can do something suspicious, but we also work with the knowledge that there's usually finite amount of scum in the game. You've defended me before for saying that there aren't neutrals/SK's in this game because it's a basic and we both have knowledge of basics. So you must know that basics have always had 3 scum 9 town right?
So, you are willing to throw suspicion around to multiple people, more than three, easy, knowing for a fact that some of them have got to be town, even under the best scenario where you cast suspicion on all of the scum too? Assuming you aren't scum that is.
The reason that it's more reasonable to have 2-3 suspects is because we analyze things. Scum don't. They will point out any little thing they catch that will create suspicion on somebody, but the town will take the suspicion and REASON how scummy/townie that makes a person. Town normally only have 2-3 because they are calling out who they think has done the scummiest things, even if everyone has done a few scummy things. That's not tunnelvision, it's a process of analysis. Tunnelvision is when you have one read and you won't let up on it.
That being said, you made it to my suspects list. Enjoy your stay.
What's MuP?
I like this post. I like the reasoning at the end. He's been pinging my scumdar for a few different things throughout the day, but I keep getting distracted every time I come in the thread. I was meaning to get a collection of his posts and reread them, but now that's on my must-do list, not only to confirm my suspicion but to check how sound your reasoning is too, mister.
Um, ensuring that he won't make the mistake later on? He's already made it bucko. That's really the end of that story.
Also, I would like you to point out where I was sure that he was scum? I know I said what he did is a scumtell, but I don't recall ever jumping to scum and calling for some rope.
Why are you being so defensive of Rith? Where's he on your T/S list?
I'm simply pointing out the fact that you can describe him with "slipped my mind" actually supports that he's more scummy than towny, not the other way around.
In my experience, activities almost always proportional to scumminess. Of course the the more you post, the more "dirt" or "off" you will feel whereas not posting won't generate anything. And I would say that should be pretty apparent by the time you are playing your third game, but who am I to "insinuate" anything according to experience.
So basically, all i'm saying is: your "XXX is scummy", list of scummy people, is a big "Duh". Not necessarily scumtell but definitely noncontent in some people's eyes.
Mind if I ask why you seem to be extra defensive though? Not sure i'm reading it right but I don't think my "response" deserves a response like that.
First, if he's neutral, why are you defending him instead of letting him answer the points I make. I would understand if you thought he was town and you were defending him, but wouldn't his responses to suspicion be a good way to move him off the neutral list and get a better picture of the town?
Aside from that, whether I'm jumping on words or not, you claimed that not one but two people are just assuming that a player is scum. How can you justify that statement? Especially when neither of us outright called him scum. We were noting our suspicions just as everyone else is doing, and you fly in for the defense. It reads unnatural.
Lastly, when you say that it's better to acknowledge all possibilities, are you arguing that when you post your T/S lists in this game, players with any tiny amount of suspicion are going to be equal to the players who have been scummy all game? Because what I'm arguing is that the town weighs options and considers all suspicion, then decides what's the most suspicious. Scum look for anything suspicious and try to make it seem like it deserves the lynch. That's one main way the scum mislynch. So you saying that you are going to acknowledge all possibilities and earlier arguing that the more possibilities, the better is indicative of a scummy mindset. To me at least. I just don't like it when players try to spread more suspicion than needed, it's fearmongering and as I've already explained, a scum tactic.
TeChNoWC - 4 Gamerz, Freddeh, Ahlyis, stinkyjoeterry
Ahlyis- 2 TeChNoWC, theatog
ProphetKing - 1 Pdr_Br
stinkyjoeterry - 1 ProphetKing
WITH 12 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH!
Can you explain what this 'ulterior pro-town reasoning' might be, that you have supposedly caught wiff of?
Ahylis asked the same and I'm not going to answer either of you because there's a reason I didn't spell it out in the first place. In fact, if I'm right, which I almost always am, it was very clever by Ahylis.
Also, I saw you posting in Mafiascum and there was no newb flag being flown there as far as I can tell. I'm sure you're rookie scum. Was this your first game as scum?
And apparently very accidental as I really had no idea I was doing it as any type of gambit beyond thinking it would be fun to mess with people's minds a bit.
That's all I want to leave it at. Moving on... let's lynch Techno and call it a day.
...
You're so wagon promiscuous.
...
Mzzt is very forceful and opinionated. He seems to be trying to assert a lot of influence over the game.
...
I'll try to break down the madness within:
1. We can quote our role PMs.
2. Quoting our role PMs will confirm us as town, but
3. ??? (logical chasm)
4. It will only work for the first person who does it.
5. Ahl should post his PM to confirm himself.
6. He has a single vote.
7. This single vote puts him under pressure.
8. He roleclaims to protect himself, given he is "under danger."
If you think Tech is mafia, this is a gambit he constructed to fool us. If you look at the chain of thinking and reasoning he lists, I struggle to envision Tech as this WIFOM layering mastermind - he an opinion that doesn't mesh well with what the actual consequences of posting your role PM are.
The last couple of quotes about a doctor, I find hard to think they're not sincere. The exchange, while it is constructed on very bad ideas, the onus for it and ultimately elaboration seems genuine.
I don't think he understands why his post doesn't confirm him, but that means he would only perform the action as town. I find it really, really hard to justify lynching him given his "confused town slips."
I don't really think it's that hard to be definitive on this issue to need a "jmo."
When I get trolled, I get trolled hard.
It's not that the role PM "confirms" him, now replaced out player - it's the series of posts and his opinions.
Oh, there you go. Bank it.
If you're gonna flip Tech coins and try to hit "absurd gambling scum with an ingenious multilayer master plan" over "confused town," you are a very poor gambler.
Perhaps I'm on the only one who sees how this puzzle adds together, but his explanation of his thinking (universal vanilla role PM) makes sense with what he actually did. More "hate" for him I don't think is appropriate - I will say I dislike the early claim, but the overall "town slip" weighs heavily in his favor.
What would you call any post?
Fishing? No. Claiming for no reason, sure.
I am almost certain I really dislike the few posts you made - if you actually read through and think about the (confusing) thing he did, voting him there doesn't make much sense.
It's more like he didn't think through the idea of all the town vanilla PMs were different.
As for fishing - fishing to get people confirmed is a fair trade and yeah, I don't really like the fishing on Gamerz but I can see him being naturally curious/overspeaking.
Now leading more negative than positive.
...
I feel like this Tech wagon is being run up so effectively due to support from scum eager to feast upon a lynch on a new player who will struggle to defend himself from his incoherent and errant posts. Then once he hangs and he flips town, they'll go, "Oh, well, he deserved a lynch - he did a lot of bad things" ignoring the greater context of his misapprehensions that actually look very good for him and make a "scum Tech" hard to pass through credibility.
I still hate this - you said you were expecting "that kind of response, but not from [me]." You knew you were laying a trap.
Where are all these games we lynch people for fishing...? Usually it goes "hey don't fish" "kk" "lol lynch someone who is posting" "crap they were town QQ."
Good post.
More like you're lying about it being a gambit, rather than you really posting that as your real PM.
?
1. He has?
2. This is a basic on MTGS, you don't need to worry about neutrals or SKs in this game.
+1
QQ
lol
This is amusing in hindsight.
I'm criticizing you for still finding the action suspicious, even after I explained why I was alarmed as I was. When I ask what kind of motive or plan I could have possibly had, given you were implying I was trying to make a sinister exploit against you, you have no answer and say it's my plan. That is a nonanswer and doesn't "solve" any problem.
No, not at all.
To obvious...? I don't really like this train of thought, "maybe his bad posts will be lost." Iffy comment to look back on if SJT flips scum.
I don't like the level of dislike for Tech combined with what you actually know from him in thread.
PDRs first.
I agree with this not only in a description of Px2 behavior, but in theory as well.
MTGS doesn't put neutral players into basic games, as a general "thing." One has never happened before.
Sure. "Early survival voting" is not OK in Px2.
Why so irritable?
QQ
Like...?
SJT's List of #10
1. He thought Ahl claimed scum. That's going after the "easy lynch" in the same way voting a cop investigation is.
2. OK.
3. Isn't there one instance of him showing signs of believing Ahl was town then going back to SK, not several?
4. I'm going to chalk this up to being extremely uninformed about mafia - he's rawer at the game than most and he seems to be thinking from a singular perspective instead of a team one.
5. That's pretty much the same point as 4.
6. Because he believes it will confirm Ahl as town.
7. OK.
8. He thought the vanilla thing would validate his claim.
9. OK + Ehhh, and big "really don't care" on catchphrases.
10. I didn't notice a steep drop in decline, but there isn't any sourcing here for me to disagree/check with.
You listed ten things as a "a lot of reasons to lynch Tech" but they really aren't that compelling when you break them down. Volume over any sort of quality from you here - you have a case against a player who can't defend himself well, stuff it full of a nice list without any kind of quotation or backing behind it.
When you consider the actual context of Tech's posting and his claim, your list falters.
I also really, really despise:
He hasn't put at us at any kind of real, tangible disadvantage by being new. Any kind of "dragging down effect" he would have if town is more than compensated for by being a fresh body in the way of losing. Making pre-emptive excuses as to why it's OK to kill him anyway if he's town is a big red flag.
...
For someone so assertive, Mzzt isn't doing or proposing or impacting much.
...
Gimmick.
I'll have a grain of salt with my SJT.
That would be pretty damning evidence. Link the goods? And date of playing?
No.
Pending his link, we should lynch this guy.
As of this post, Gamerz has been replaced by Wheat_Grinder.
Nonsense.
Anyone feeling like giving a quick summary, I'd be much obliged to ya. If not, well, I'm planning on reading the thread either way.
If he can provide one, I'm sticking with my Techno vote regardless of your counter argument. If he can't, then SJT jumps way up on the scum list and I'll unvote Techno.
SJT, link to proof that Techno has played elsewhere please.
Two pages at what ppp?
Also I just looked at the player rundown. Since I only recognize 4 names, I'm assuming this is the game where there's a bunch of people coming in from another forum, correct?
I admit it, that was something that wasn't clicking for me. With the idea he thought all Vanilla roles had the same role PM, it does lend some credence to him being Town.
If he truly is a newb, I'll buy it, for now. But if SJT can show he's not a newb, then it becomes a calculated gambit on his part and actually makes him scummier in my eyes. It all hinges on whether he really is a complete newb or not.
I think this only has any merit if SJT cannot provide proof that Techno isn't really the Newb he claims to be.
Fine. I was laying a trap. I admit that. But only on the condition you accept that it was a trap intended to catch non-Px2 players, not a trap intended to catch Scum/Town players. My "trap" wasn't laid with the intent of finding someone to vote over it. That wasn't my expectation, even if that does seem to have come about as a result of all the discussion over it. The initial "trap" though was only intended to fool non-Px2 players, regardless of their alignment.
When I think of a "trap", I think of one intended to help Town identify a player's alignment (or to mislead Town if it is a Scum trap). This "trap" was not intended or expected to do that at all.
So everyone keeps saying. Ok, I'll accept that.
Correct.
Almost half of us came over from Paranoia Paradise on the wizards.com forums.
Second, I like PK's mass post, but I haven't read it. I stopped at a few points and he makes some excellent observations regarding the Tech situation. Still, one mass-townie post doesn't really make up for all the lurking he's done so far. Just keep that in mind. Keep up the content and we're golden, PK.
Third, Hi W_G.
Finally, you Px2er's played with Gamerz, right? Did he have a tendency to absolutely hate being scum? Because I'm wondering why a player who set up an account and came over here with his friends for a special game off their site and was given auto-in status would suddenly lurk hard and replace out. What's Gamerz like? I'm not one to take replacement speculation very seriously, but in this case it could be very telling.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=22008&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select=18888&user_select2=0&user_select3=0&user_sort=Go
Also FoS: Ahlyis because it looks like you've been trying to turn this into a 'Px2 vs non-Px2' day 1, which is very anti-town imo. I didn't look into it much until you started explaining yourself, but when you started calling it a 'trap' to catch non-px2 players...I have to question your intent.
He's not a Px2 guy. Never played with him before.
I will agree with the idea that his prior posts were rather lame and bad.
Re: SJT's game link. That's pretty interesting - he does appear more aware and cognizant, less confused about the game. I'd like to hear from Tech himself.
Seems very different from our Techno to me. Hard to tell, what with it being an ongoing game or not. He could be town in that one and scum in this one, and vice versa. Slightly WIFOMy in that regard.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
Tech, would you like to confess to being a MuP or have any other interesting tidbits to tell us?
Basically I can also sum up my mentality with; I am agressive and assertive when I feel in control and not suspected, and not when I am, regardless of whether I am town or not, but even more so when I am town. Not sure why, but that's how it is. I take flak better as mafia because I know it is true, whereas flak received as town just feels personal, because I have nothing to act scummy about. Not something I like about my playstyle and it is frustrating, but that's what I tend to do. Take the thread you referenced for instance; not sure if I am allowed to claim about that game, but I am town. I felt comfortable as town until the minute I received a vote, and then resorted to short posts with little content. Once I've received flak, I just can't shake feeling scummy. Probably suggests I am not that good at mafia, but anyway.
Will try and catch up with this game sometime tommorrow. Feel free to read as much meta on me as you want, it's all there on my mafiascum account, but yeah, all still ongoing games atm.
Not sure what Prophet means about MuP.
Why yes, yes it does. And although all those posts are recent, he definitely doesn't give off a "newb" vibe in them.
I think I'll be sticking with my vote after all.
Christ. I probably ought to just give up.
Are you intentionally misrepping things? Or do you honestly think I said that? Do you have no concept of what "context" means?
Do I sound a bit ticked off? Well, yeah, I'm getting there. Again.
Deep breaths.
Deep breaths.
1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10...
Okay, I feel a bit calmer now.
Freddeh, what do you mean by "trap" in that quote? What do you mean by "catch"?
Yes, I freely admit I expected to "catch" non-Px2 players in my "trap". But there's no negative connotations in either of those words. "catch" isn't tied to "intended to find someone to vote for" and "trap" doesn't equate to "intended for use as a scumhunting tool".
Instead "catch" is more equivalent to "trick into believing" and "trap" is more like "april fool's joke".
So yes, as I've been trying to say all along, I intended to trick non-Px2'ers into believing my newb claim with my April Fool's type joke.
I'm not the one that keeps insisting on calling my fake claim a "trap", "gambit" or anything else. Everyone else keeps trying to force those descriptions onto it. All I did was finally cave in and accept those definitions as long as it was understood they needed to be used in a different context than the standard Mafia context for those words.
So what do you do? You come along and immediately take my words OUT of the context they were intended in and then try to use them against me in a Mafia context.
Scummy mudslinger much?
You even admitted to it here. My problem with it looks like you are using it to create a px2 vs non-px2 atmosphere, which is decidedly non-town. You can call it something intended to 'identify a player's alignment' if you want, but thats not even a good way to do it, because townies (and even Px2'ers *pokes PK*) could fall for that 'trap'.
Basically I'm calling it poor scumhunting technique. I liked it better when it was either a joke or a minor reaction troll, but the fact that its been the center of discussion almost all day amazes me.
Anyway, I'm good with either Techno or SJT lynch, both have pinged my scumdar more than Ahl has today.
But after re-reading your post, it looks like it was a joke. So what in the bloody hell is the problem that has been talked about for way too long?
OMG. You really CANNOT READ, can you?
I honestly have no idea how you could read my post and then accuse me of the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said!
Also, when Sunday rolls around I'll be in here to answer a couple of questions that were asked of me. If someone could put them all in one place so I can quote and be a little more efficient with my answers, that'd be great. If not, I'll just go through and find them before I post.
Also, can we get off of Ahylis at this point? We aren't really getting anywhere with going back to his first post over and over again.
Just been re-worded because of people hounding him for mostly stupid reasons.
Are you voting right now Rith? If you had to pick one person to be scum, who would it be (not a list of 5 or however many you mentioned last time)?
Really though I prefer opinions, not excuses and Q&A.
I've just been trying to defend myself. It's hard to keep defending against people that insist on using specific words while refusing to use the same terms yourself. I tried. I tried to not call it a gimmick or trap, but when every single attack keeps calling it that, no matter what I say, I finally decided to change tacks, go with their words, but try to put them into context.
Then, the moment I do that, I get accused of admitting it was a trap/gimmick.
If I had to vote right this instance, I'd vote Techno, as I am seeing the strongest case being against him. Also, please note that after some recent events (not related to this game), my confidence in my ability to make an accurate read is wavering, so I'd be crossing my fingers while making that vote.
However, I am widely convinced that something is up with Techno, at the very least, as he really does seem too nervous.
Techno is scum. Newb thinking is one thing, referring to him "confirming" himself, but to keep believing it when evidence to the contrary appears? No way. Especially when he claimed after a single vote.
I'm on the fence about Ahlyis. I don't like his SK gambit (no way there's an SK in a basic, btw). That alone doesn't make him scum though, and the rest of what he's done so far I don't get a read one way or the other.
PK I'm leaning town on. I'm a bit hesitant on that because he's a good player that I haven't played much with, but his posts read townie to me so far.
The rest didn't post much in the first 90 so I don't have reads yet. When I catch up the rest of the way (possibly tomorrow, possibly not; depends on if I have to get work done around the house), I'll have a full T/S list.
No nerves here. Vote away; between my inability to actively contribute to this post, unable to get accurate reads on anyone (other than Ahlyis, fingers crossed), impending doom and lack of trust amongst town, I might be a good decision for a D1 lynch. But I would argue that Ahlyis seems a better one; if he is really an SK as I predict, he is dangerous to town unless he can be used as a vig (even then it's risky).
@Wheat: You say that SKs can't be in basic. Where did you get this information?
Gricky and Atog are my townreads, for what it's worth, as I have a feeling they know I am town from my role PM.
If you do intend to hammer me though, don't do it. Try and draw the day out so you can get more reads on everyone. While my wagon has some merit, watch those that pounced on it without much thought (Stinky seems somewhat scummy to me, but at least he gave good reasoning for his vote on me).
Serial killers are notoriously hard to balance even in more complex minis, and add too much complexity for a basic game. I've seen neutrals in basics before, but only Survivors: people who win so long as they survive. Even those are extremely rare; the only example I know of was before my time, iirc.
Couple this with the fact that Ahlyis is NOT a new player and made up the role PM he posted, and we can safely bet we have no serial killer.
If I'm wrong, feel free to make me eat these words later. I doubt I'm wrong though.
So it's not strictly out of the formula setup or anything? I thought you were suggesting it was impossible.
Still, that is a massive point worth considering. Does the mod usually run basics? It would be best to check his basic games in particular. I assume with a game this size an SK is very possible, considering we don't know how many scum there are. If anyone has any meta on emo's previous games, that would be good, because if you are right and SK's are extremely rare or even non-existent in basic, then I am wrong about Ahlyis and will retract my vote.
TeChNoWC - 3 Freddeh, Ahlyis, stinkyjoeterry
Ahlyis- 2 TeChNoWC, theatog
ProphetKing - 1 Pdr_Br
stinkyjoeterry - 1 ProphetKing
WITH 12 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH!
Basics tend to adhere to a formula: 3 town PR's, 1 scum PR, 3 total scum. I have seen a VT slot dropped for a neutral survivor, and I have seen 4 town PR's and 2 scum PR's before. That's the extent of the design space so far as I know. I am in fact suggesting it's impossible, with the caveat that I might be wrong. But I have never seen it in the 8 basics I've played on this site.
Today I'm hoping to read the rest of the posts beyond 90.
On the subject of why I think Freddeh isn't all that scummy: Mainly this post, as it mirrors some ways that I've been thinking. He points out the 'False Dilemma' and the fact that people have been looking too far into the Ahylis thing.
Also, if that first list of potential people I posted is enough to make me still seem scummy, even after I've attempted to defend myself, then oh well, there's nothing I can do about that.
Anyways, I need to put my vote somewhere already, and after a couple of more days of thinking about it, I'm comfortable with voting Techno.
So yeah, no SK, I'm 99% sure.
I find this line of reasoning dangerous. If Ahlyis is indeed an SK, given the flak he has received and his initial PM, i'm pretty sure he would plan to not kill, otherwise everyone WOULD know there is an SK and suspect him. Assuming that 'oh, only one NK? So Ahlyis WAS telling the truth!' would be sane reasoning had Ahlyis not POSTED HIS ROLE PM. I highly doubt he would kill now.
However, given your experience with basics and the lack of ANY evidence that there is SK's in basic, and though I still get the feeling Ahylis is an SK, I must humbling concede to logic and
Unvote