That being said, what's the reasoning for the vote here? Just because you can? Need more explanation.
The reason for voting is because he seems to have something to hide. Town needs to be truthful (for the most part) and be seeking out to each other, not creating chaos.
If he lied for fun, I guess I couldn't have much against that.
If he lied for a scheme, then his motive is very questionable. But still town can "set traps". and SJT, who i played with multiple times, is famous for (kinda-ineffective :P) trap-setting.
On the other hand, if he lied for a scheme but cover up saying it's just for fun, then that is pure scummy in my book.
@Ahlyis, in an ideal world where everyone would act According to your expectation. What would you expect how each of us would react to your claim. Obviously you have SOME expectation as you voted PK for not behaving how you expected.
While I agree with PK that Tech is probably a new player, I get the feeling that hes newb scum and not newb town.
As far as an update on SJT...I actually don't even know what to think about him anymore, he might be being too obvious to actually be scum, but then maybe hes hoping his bad posts will get lost?
Regardless, I feel that Ahlyis is more likely to be town than anyone, so I'm staying on the counterwagon that has been largely ignored lately, Techno, for both this reason and my initial paragraph's reason.
Also, I don't see anything wrong with Pdr's prod on PK, though how long do we have left in the day?
The thing is that the game wasn't all that crazy when he posted that. It was a little weird, sure, but not 'multiple layers of meta' weird. It seemed like he was overreacting, which, in my experience, people seem to read as a scum tell.
@Ahlyis, in an ideal world where everyone would act According to your expectation. What would you expect how each of us would react to your claim. Obviously you have SOME expectation as you voted PK for not behaving how you expected.
I expected several of the players NOT from Px2 to jump on me for that claim. But for the players from Px2 to come to my aid in declaring that I'm not such a newb that that claim might be serious.
I expected to generate discussion and to collect some votes, but not for this to become the sole topic of discussion for the day or for my fellow Px2 players to not only NOT support me, but to actively Vote me on it as if it were a real claim.
PK's vote on me as if he thought my claim could possibly have been real caught me off guard. I definitely was NOT expecting that from a fellow Px2 vet.
And now this crap about double fakies from another Px2 vet? What's up with that? Why is that more likely than that it was simply a fake claim I made up because I thought it would be fun to get things started off that way? Is my wording for the claim so awesome that nobody believes I could have done it myself? That it had to come from Emo because I'm such a dimwit and illiterate with no creativity of his own?
And before someone asks, no, I'm not upset. Just confused about the lack of support when, from my perspective, the other Px2 players should have seen right off that I couldn't possibly have been serious.
The thing is that the game wasn't all that crazy when he posted that. It was a little weird, sure, but not 'multiple layers of meta' weird. It seemed like he was overreacting, which, in my experience, people seem to read as a scum tell.
I still don't see anything particularly scummy about his comment. Even if he was WRONG, it's a pretty small tell in my opinion. Someone said something earlier about PK usually posting a lot; that is bothering me more at the moment, considering scum seem to usually post as little as possible; some players are just generally like that anyway, but a change in behaviour rings alarm bells for me.
I expected several of the players NOT from Px2 to jump on me for that claim. But for the players from Px2 to come to my aid in declaring that I'm not such a newb that that claim might be serious.
I expected to generate discussion and to collect some votes, but not for this to become the sole topic of discussion for the day or for my fellow Px2 players to not only NOT support me, but to actively Vote me on it as if it were a real claim.
PK's vote on me as if he thought my claim could possibly have been real caught me off guard. I definitely was NOT expecting that from a fellow Px2 vet.
And now this crap about double fakies from another Px2 vet? What's up with that? Why is that more likely than that it was simply a fake claim I made up because I thought it would be fun to get things started off that way? Is my wording for the claim so awesome that nobody believes I could have done it myself? That it had to come from Emo because I'm such a dimwit and illiterate with no creativity of his own?
And before someone asks, no, I'm not upset. Just confused about the lack of support when, from my perspective, the other Px2 players should have seen right off that I couldn't possibly have been serious.
It's being talked about a lot because it's the only major development so far, besides me revealing my PM.
Have you considered that we find you intelligent and confident enough to perform the gambit with your actual post and double bluff us? And that even if you did write it yourself, that this still leads me to believe you might be scum, trying to, in a roundabout way, draw attention AWAY from yourself?
even if you did write it yourself, that this still leads me to believe you might be scum, trying to, in a roundabout way, draw attention AWAY from yourself?
Do you see nothing inherently contradictory in those two stances?
Regardless, what possible motive would I have to draw this much attention to myself as scum? If I'm lucky, I won't get lynched over that stunt, but by no means am I going to be sporting a nice big pair of Townie Pants because of it.
@Ahlyis: The motive is simple: so you could make the argument that you just made and thereby direct attention away from yourself. I believe that's called WIFOM, though I'm not sure if I'm thinking of that term correctly.
This is why I'm not sure if I think your suspicious or not. Cause that WIFOM was so vast that I'm have difficulty computing it.
People I'm thinking of as potential scum right now: Ahylis, Techno, ProphetKing, theatog, Tetris (lurking and finger-pointing), & STJ. I can provide reasoning for each of them, but, I lack any real conviction as of yet. I must see more before I find conviction on any individual.
@Ahlyis: The motive is simple: so you could make the argument that you just made and thereby direct attention away from yourself. I believe that's called WIFOM, though I'm not sure if I'm thinking of that term correctly.
As you said though, that's one huge pile of Wifom you'd have to expect to work.
Assume I'm scum, I can't see any way I'm better off by pulling that stunt and trying to Wifom everyone than I would be if I simply hadn't done it.
At worst, it seems like a null tell unless you argue that I really did post my real role PM. If not, then I really can't see an argument that it was more scummy than it was Townie.
I'm not trying to say it was Townie. I'm just saying I see it at worst as a null tell.
@Ahlyis: The motive is simple: so you could make the argument that you just made and thereby direct attention away from yourself. I believe that's called WIFOM, though I'm not sure if I'm thinking of that term correctly.
This is why I'm not sure if I think your suspicious or not. Cause that WIFOM was so vast that I'm have difficulty computing it.
People I'm thinking of as potential scum right now: Ahylis, Techno, ProphetKing, theatog, Tetris (lurking and finger-pointing), & STJ. I can provide reasoning for each of them, but, I lack any real conviction as of yet. I must see more before I find conviction on any individual.
Getting bad vibes from this post.
How many scum do you think are in this game?
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I think I'll get on the Ahylis wagon I'm calling double fakies on him.
UNVOTE, VOTE: Ahylis
Impressed?
Unvote: Ahl, Vote: SJT
Low content opportunist.
Quote from Rith »
The thing is that the game wasn't all that crazy when he posted that. It was a little weird, sure, but not 'multiple layers of meta' weird. It seemed like he was overreacting, which, in my experience, people seem to read as a scum tell.
There isn't usually multiple PM quotations early D1.
Quote from Rith »
People I'm thinking of as potential scum right now: Ahylis, Techno, ProphetKing, theatog, Tetris (lurking and finger-pointing), & STJ. I can provide reasoning for each of them, but, I lack any real conviction as of yet. I must see more before I find conviction on any individual.
You are suspicious of more players as potential scum than you have left for players in your suspect pool to be town.
Quote from Ahl »
I'm not trying to say it was Townie. I'm just saying I see it at worst as a null tell.
I'm assuming 3, but I am trying my best to not make any assumptions, due to having lost a game on that account in the past. Key word in that post was 'potential' as in "I think these people are acting slightly scummy" and not "I think these people are scum".
I feel that the PK thing is worthy of note, and I'm also wary of that one post I linked before, so he's one I am most inclined towards. I guess Ahylis really is a null tell, but, after that magnitude of WIFOM, I doubt he will drop off my scumdar, unless he gets investigated or whatnot. I'm not familiar with newb scumtells, but the suspicions on Techno that have been raised by other players seem valid. Theatog was aggressive towards Ahylis, which could indicate that he's pushing for a lynch that he sees as easy, but if Ahylis actually is scum, my suspicions are quelled. Tetris's lurking and general desire to point fingers make him the only person whom I'd actively say with conviction is scum. STJ is lurking and posting low content.
What do you hope to garner from asking this question to someone who stated they are a newbie?
Yeah, let's not ask questions of newbies. There's a good strategy!
I was just about to vote for PK, but I think I'm going to come back to you instead. Voting for you makes more sense as a survival vote, but with this latest post I think you're scummier than PK at this point anyway.
I'm assuming 3, but I am trying my best to not make any assumptions, due to having lost a game on that account in the past. Key word in that post was 'potential' as in "I think these people are acting slightly scummy" and not "I think these people are scum".
I feel that the PK thing is worthy of note, and I'm also wary of that one post I linked before, so he's one I am most inclined towards. I guess Ahylis really is a null tell, but, after that magnitude of WIFOM, I doubt he will drop off my scumdar, unless he gets investigated or whatnot. I'm not familiar with newb scumtells, but the suspicions on Techno that have been raised by other players seem valid. Theatog was aggressive towards Ahylis, which could indicate that he's pushing for a lynch that he sees as easy, but if Ahylis actually is scum, my suspicions are quelled. Tetris's lurking and general desire to point fingers make him the only person whom I'd actively say with conviction is scum. STJ is lurking and posting low content.
This makes me feel slightly better. This is your first game?
Also, I'd like to hear more about your only read with conviction. What makes you so sure about Tetris at this point? Please quote posts and try to explain yourself to the best of your ability.
How many scum do YOU think are in this game? What do you hope to garner from asking this question to someone who stated they are a newbie?
I see his suspicions as far too many. This usually indicates that a player is either an incredibly suspicious townie or is scum trying to spread out suspicion and hope some of it sticks. The only thing I see as overly wrong with Rith's reasoning is that he's tying a few players together at an early point in the game.
As far as how many scum are in this game, there are three. I don't know for sure, but I don't have to guess either, there has been 3 scum in every basic game I have seen or been in on this site. That doesn't mean that this game couldn't be that one game, but I'd give better chances to me being struck by lightening right...about...NOW!
Nope still alive. The chances that there are 4 scum in the game are just about as good as the chances that there is an SK in a basic, which boils down to non-existent chances.
As for what I hope to garner from asking questions, regardless to the level of experience they are asked to, is information. Where a player stands on issues, who they think is town/scum, that kind of stuff. I like information because it gives me an in-game history of a players actions that I can doublecheck new actions against.
Now for your questions.
You see his suspicions as relevant? All of them? Provide reasoning.
You are a new player are you not? Should we not ask questions of you? Why are questions to new players bad but not to experienced players? Is this too many questions for you?
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Yeah, let's not ask questions of newbies. There's a good strategy!
I was just about to vote for PK, but I think I'm going to come back to you instead. Voting for you makes more sense as a survival vote, but with this latest post I think you're scummier than PK at this point anyway.
Vote: Techno
His post rang bells, yes, but I still see this as a weak vote. And more flopping from you. Don't know what to think about this.
Also, what do you mean "survival vote"? Could you point me in the direction of your PK vote too?
@Town: Where are you people? It's been a week or two and this is moving at a snails pace. I'm partly to blame because I've been working a crapton over this weekend and was a bit more focused on other games, but I expected to come back to this game totally unprepared for the massive amount of catchup I would have to do. Turns out that's not so. MOAR CONTINENT PLZ!
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People I'm thinking of as potential scum right now: Ahylis, Techno, ProphetKing, theatog, Tetris (lurking and finger-pointing), & STJ. I can provide reasoning for each of them, but, I lack any real conviction as of yet. I must see more before I find conviction on any individual.
Thanks. That's basically everyone that has been posting. Very helpful
Can you explain why Pdr is not scummy? He poked his head in a few times then dropped back into nonpresense.
This makes me feel slightly better. This is your first game?
Also, I'd like to hear more about your only read with conviction. What makes you so sure about Tetris at this point? Please quote posts and try to explain yourself to the best of your ability.
This is technically my third game. First one was a train wreck that had almost 100% new players. Second one is ongoing and only on day 1. So, I'm still relatively inexperienced, with a new acronym catching me off guard here and there.
As for why Tetris feels scummy to me, here he is very aggressive on a likely fake claim, calling it ridiculous to assume it's a gambit, and saying things like 'he needs to die' over what eventually winds up being a null tell. Feels like he's trying to start a wagon. And here, he calls it a gambit, but doesn't specify if he thinks it actually was a gambit or not. After having read back through his posts, some of my conviction has withered, and for some reason I can't call up the exact reason I thought he was more scummy than most when I was typing that post (I blame work fatigue). Those points still stand, however.
Thanks. That's basically everyone that has been posting. Very helpful
Can you explain why Pdr is not scummy? He poked his head in a few times then dropped back into nonpresense.
That's actually a valid way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. Pdr wasn't on that list mainly because he slipped my mind on account of the fact that he hadn't posted much.
My instinct in general is to assume the best intentions when I read something, and Mafia inherently goes against this. As a result, I believe I overcompensated here by interpreting everyone as scummy.
Also, today is the first day in two weeks that I've really had to relax, keep that in mind.
His post rang bells, yes, but I still see this as a weak vote. And more flopping from you. Don't know what to think about this.
I don't get where these accusations keep coming from. Are people just not paying attention?
What flopping?
I've voted for 3 different people today: PK, Mzztr and Techno. Mzztr was a mistake due to misreading his post and I retracted my suspicions of him after I realized my mistake. But PK and Techno are both still scummy in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing either of them lynched.
So, if being undecided between two players and going back and forth on which you think is scummier constitutes flopping to you, then I guess I really am guilty. But that's not a definition of flopping that I'm used to. To me, flopping is jumping around from one person to another to another to another with little or no reasoning, not waffling between your top two scum candidates.
I'm the current vote leader. I'd understandably, regardless of alignment, prefer not to be lynched. Between PK and Techno, Techno is the more likely to provide an alternative to my own lynch. Thus I'm better off voting him in an attempt to survive the day.
Maybe you guys don't use survival votes around here, though I would find that very surprising.
Could you point me in the direction of your PK vote too?
My PK vote is way back at the beginning of the game.
Right after I made my ridiculous claim, PK came in and voted me. I found that highly scummy of him since he knows me and knows that post couldn't have been serious. So I voted him right back.
I don't get where these accusations keep coming from. Are people just not paying attention?
What flopping?
I've voted for 3 different people today: PK, Mzztr and Techno. Mzztr was a mistake due to misreading his post and I retracted my suspicions of him after I realized my mistake. But PK and Techno are both still scummy in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing either of them lynched.
So, if being undecided between two players and going back and forth on which you think is scummier constitutes flopping to you, then I guess I really am guilty. But that's not a definition of flopping that I'm used to. To me, flopping is jumping around from one person to another to another to another with little or no reasoning, not waffling between your top two scum candidates.
Well, your votes are constantly changing. In my world, it doesn't matter if they are changing between two people or the whole town, if they are back and forth as rapid as yours are, then it's suspicious. Also, IIRC, some of your votes have been placed for terrible reasons. Need to reread those reasons, but if you are taking your vote on PK all the way back to his reaction to your RVS shenanigans, I'm calling a boatload of crap.
I'm the current vote leader. I'd understandably, regardless of alignment, prefer not to be lynched. Between PK and Techno, Techno is the more likely to provide an alternative to my own lynch. Thus I'm better off voting him in an attempt to survive the day.
Maybe you guys don't use survival votes around here, though I would find that very surprising.
Well paint yourself surprised, because a "survival vote" as you call it is pretty much a scumtell. That's like delayed-OMGUS, and any OMGUS is a scummy thing. It's also a window to your mindset. Part of your reasoning for voting him is that he's a rival lynch candidate, so that kind of skews your reasoning a little bit more, leading to tunnelvision possibly. More than that though, your mindset of "Survival" instead of "Catch Scum" is pretty scummy. The town don't care if they survive, they just care that someone ends up lynching scum so they can win. A neutral would care about survival, but they aren't in this game. A scum REALLY REALLY cares about survival, which makes your comment telling.
I understand that many players would prefer not to be lynched, but that doesn't mean that a townie's thoughts normally dwell on survival. Even a townie knows that there's info to be gained from his or her lynch. So your mindset of survival is really a telling point about your alignment.
My PK vote is way back at the beginning of the game.
Right after I made my ridiculous claim, PK came in and voted me. I found that highly scummy of him since he knows me and knows that post couldn't have been serious. So I voted him right back.
I remember this, but wasn't aware that was the same reason you hopped back on his wagon. What about his play since then?
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Well paint yourself surprised, because a "survival vote" as you call it is pretty much a scumtell. That's like delayed-OMGUS, and any OMGUS is a scummy thing.
Again, whatever.
Survival votes are EXPECTED over at Px2, for ANY alignment. True, there are times when it is better to take the lynch than try to push it off, but on Day 1? I'm not aware of any reasons I should want to die, especially over someone I think may be scum.
Still, you can call it scummy all you want, but you're basing it being a scumtell on the norms of this site. But in this game, you have HALF the players used to the norms of a different site.
Okay, survival votes here are frowned on. I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. But calling me scummy for it in this game isn't really justified. If you don't believe me, ask the other Px2 players, or go visit Px2 and look at some of the games there. Survival votes are part of the meta there.
The town don't care if they survive, they just care that someone ends up lynching scum so they can win.
This is bullcrap. Town don't mind dying if it helps catch scum. There's times when letting yourself be lynched will help catch scum. I don't believe letting myself get lynched on Day 1 is going to help catch scum moreso than anyone else's lynch. If anything, I think it less likely since if we lynch someone else, we might actually lynch scum outright, not later down the line.
Yes, I know you can't accept that argument from your perspective because you don't KNOW that I'm Town. But put yourself in my shoes and assume that I am Town for the moment. How does letting myself get lynched today help Town more than fighting to get someone I find scummy lynched instead? Why should I NOT survival vote today?
A neutral would care about survival, but they aren't in this game.
They aren't? Where'd you get this info? All the arguments I've seen to this point say that there ARE Self aligned players in this game, at least one. The primary argument being the wording of the wincon in the sample role PM by the Mod.
So how is it you know, for a fact, that there are no Self aligned in this game? Or is this just an attempt at misdirection? Are YOU the Self aligned in this game?
Call that fishing if you want, but I think it a reasonable question given your assertion.
I understand that many players would prefer not to be lynched, but that doesn't mean that a townie's thoughts normally dwell on survival. Even a townie knows that there's info to be gained from his or her lynch. So your mindset of survival is really a telling point about your alignment.
You can keep harping on the same point time after time throughout your post, that doesn't magically make it true just because you've repeated it enough times.
Town shouldn't mind dying under various circumstances. A claimed Cop with several results being killed confirms their results if they are Town, or throws Wifom on the fire if they aren't. A Mason death can often confirm their mason partner as Town. Various different role interactions can mean that letting yourself die will provide SPECIFIC information to the Town.
What specific information will the Town gain from my lynch? And by specific I mean, what info will Town gain from my death that they won't gain from anyone else's death? True, different people will be implicated or exonerated to varying degrees, but at this point there's nothing specific to be gained by letting myself die. Letting myself die means a dead Townie, guaranteed (from my perspective). Trying to get someone else lynched means there's still a chance Scum dies today.
You are a new player are you not? Should we not ask questions of you? Why are questions to new players bad but not to experienced players? Is this too many questions for you?
I have no problem with you asking questions of new players, ask away, the more the better. You misread what I said. I said THAT question, meaning why were you asking a noob how many scum he thought were in the game. I didn't realise at the time but you may have been asking in case he supplied an outrageous number and you wanted to correct him, but at the time I just thought it was a stupid thing to be asking a noob about game mechanics.
Just so that this doesn't get lost in that big post of mine, I'm going to quote this snippet again as I think it may be important:
Where did you get this information from? How do you know it with such certainty? Indications we have so far run contrary to your assertion.
Does anyone else think Gricky may be Self aligned, trying to hide this little snippet of disinformation buried in his larger post against me?
Yes, it does seem very suspicious, will wait to see what Gricky's reply is. It may just be on analysis of prior game set ups; though if he were neutral, would he be wanting to draw attention away from that, and risk being assumed scummy instead (later in the game)?
This is technically my third game. First one was a train wreck that had almost 100% new players. Second one is ongoing and only on day 1. So, I'm still relatively inexperienced, with a new acronym catching me off guard here and there.
As for why Tetris feels scummy to me, here he is very aggressive on a likely fake claim, calling it ridiculous to assume it's a gambit, and saying things like 'he needs to die' over what eventually winds up being a null tell. Feels like he's trying to start a wagon. And here, he calls it a gambit, but doesn't specify if he thinks it actually was a gambit or not. After having read back through his posts, some of my conviction has withered, and for some reason I can't call up the exact reason I thought he was more scummy than most when I was typing that post (I blame work fatigue). Those points still stand, however.
That's actually a valid way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. Pdr wasn't on that list mainly because he slipped my mind on account of the fact that he hadn't posted much.
My instinct in general is to assume the best intentions when I read something, and Mafia inherently goes against this. As a result, I believe I overcompensated here by interpreting everyone as scummy.
Yea the best scum do that and get away with it.
So this is your first game too?
So, uhm, was the insinuation that I'm scum retracted there, theatog? Cause, well, I can't possibly provide proof that Pdr really just slipped my mind. So, if you aren't gonna take it on faith, and his exemption puts me in the scum camp, well, you might as well do something about it.
Pdr: As you requested, a read out of the different players in this game:
ProphetKing: That thing at the beginning of the game is still there. Decreased posting volume. He claims he just made a gut reaction to Ahylis's thing, but I don't know the guy, and can't say if he's got the personality that would lead him to react that way. Other Px2ers: Is this out of character for PK?
Freddeh: Very low post volume. Half of his 4 posts are non-content. He reads like town, though, with the posts that are there.
theatog: Reading back through his posts, he seems very aggressive, except towards STJ and Techno. Also, how I read a few of his posts are as follows: Setting a Guy up - Accusing him of bandwagoning repeatedly when he's only voted 3 times - Trying to assert that the original role quote was indeed his role.
Pdr_Br: Most of his posts are non-content posts looking for information. Reads like town, though.
stinkyjoeterry: Claimed a ridiculous role. Not sure if we should be hounding him for that, I've heard someone make a claim similar to that before, and after that game we were chastised for not chasing him down for it, but I don't see how he could be being serious, so, idk. Also, here we get another nice little alignment between Techno and STJ (The same two people that theatog was more pleasant towards).
Ahlyis: WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Null tell. The center of attention.
Rithaniel: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly. How does black in upside down?
Emocakes: Very low number of posts. Seems to be behaving much like me. Uncertainty, tentative finger-pointing that doesn't really fold out.
MzztrTetris: Already gave my read on him, but, after some thought, I think he may be okay.
GrickyTimmick: Main scum-hunter. Pretty confident he's town. Seems a little tunnel-visioned onto Ahylis right now, though.
Gamerz: Who?
TeChNoWC: Panicky little guy. Still don't know newb scum tells, but didn't react well under pressure, so, yeah.
Does anyone else think Gricky may be Self aligned, trying to hide this little snippet of disinformation buried in his larger post against me?
I doubt it. From what I understand, basics have very low chances of having neutrals. I might be wrong, but Gricky is coming across as one of the most town players here. I'd be shocked if he was a neutral.
He's one of the few people in this game not locked on Ahlyis about his enormous WIFOM or Tech and his auto-claim. It just feels like Gricky is seeing the big picture and is doing more than most to keep us from running in circles.
I'm humored by the fact that you keep saying you voted me over a m,isclarification the first time, but the second time you fail to allot for the second time you voted me with, again, poor reasoning.
I don't even remember that vote. Was I still under the impression of your slip? Or had we already cleared it up at that point?
Basic games on this site have never been known to have a neural, it's perfectly understandable the Gricky doesn't believe that a neutral is in this game. The only reason there might be one is because of the wincon's wording, but I doubt it.
I'm humored by the fact that you keep saying you voted me over a m,isclarification the first time, but the second time you fail to allot for the second time you voted me with, again, poor reasoning.
I just checked. It was after... 10 whole minutes after.
Yeah, no chance I still had you on the brain at that time.
Just because it happened a long time ago doesn't somehow make it any less scummy.
Noted, but it's coming from your very trap looking non-trap incident, which had legit suspicion surrounding it. Expecting someone to know better when you do something totally effing mafia-crazy is NOT solid grounds for voting someone.
Survival votes are EXPECTED over at Px2, for ANY alignment. True, there are times when it is better to take the lynch than try to push it off, but on Day 1? I'm not aware of any reasons I should want to die, especially over someone I think may be scum.
Still, you can call it scummy all you want, but you're basing it being a scumtell on the norms of this site. But in this game, you have HALF the players used to the norms of a different site.
Okay, survival votes here are frowned on. I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. But calling me scummy for it in this game isn't really justified. If you don't believe me, ask the other Px2 players, or go visit Px2 and look at some of the games there. Survival votes are part of the meta there.
If that's the norm associated with it on your site, then I'll drop it. But it seems like just a weird thing to excuse, because the action is a very telling scummy action most of the time.
If it is an accepted thing on Px2, then what are some points of analysis surrounding these survival votes? Are there any way of seeing scummy things in them, or do they generally go ignored?
This is bullcrap. Town don't mind dying if it helps catch scum. There's times when letting yourself be lynched will help catch scum. I don't believe letting myself get lynched on Day 1 is going to help catch scum moreso than anyone else's lynch. If anything, I think it less likely since if we lynch someone else, we might actually lynch scum outright, not later down the line.
Yes, I know you can't accept that argument from your perspective because you don't KNOW that I'm Town. But put yourself in my shoes and assume that I am Town for the moment. How does letting myself get lynched today help Town more than fighting to get someone I find scummy lynched instead? Why should I NOT survival vote today?
Well, on this site, survival voting is seen as OMGUS and flailing, two things that are only going to make people want to lynch you more. So those are reasons you should NOT survival vote at all. Also, your lynch potentially helps the town, because if you are a townie, then scum are more inclined to be on your wagon. There's usually at least one scum on a townie wagon, if not more, so your wagon leads to analysis of the weakest wagoner and other suspicious activity.
Also, I don't see how you can call my argument BS when you admit that it's a possibility in the very next sentence. Still, with the Px2 history that I've read, it's a moot point.
They aren't? Where'd you get this info? All the arguments I've seen to this point say that there ARE Self aligned players in this game, at least one. The primary argument being the wording of the wincon in the sample role PM by the Mod.
So how is it you know, for a fact, that there are no Self aligned in this game? Or is this just an attempt at misdirection? Are YOU the Self aligned in this game?
Call that fishing if you want, but I think it a reasonable question given your assertion.
I didn't start the game knowing for sure that neutrals aren't in the game, but my knowledge of basics tells me nearly 100% that there isn't a neutral in this game, just like there prolly isn't a serial killer. Now, I'll give their existence a longshot possibility, but I've never seen them in another basic.
You can keep harping on the same point time after time throughout your post, that doesn't magically make it true just because you've repeated it enough times.
Town shouldn't mind dying under various circumstances. A claimed Cop with several results being killed confirms their results if they are Town, or throws Wifom on the fire if they aren't. A Mason death can often confirm their mason partner as Town. Various different role interactions can mean that letting yourself die will provide SPECIFIC information to the Town.
What specific information will the Town gain from my lynch? And by specific I mean, what info will Town gain from my death that they won't gain from anyone else's death? True, different people will be implicated or exonerated to varying degrees, but at this point there's nothing specific to be gained by letting myself die. Letting myself die means a dead Townie, guaranteed (from my perspective). Trying to get someone else lynched means there's still a chance Scum dies today.
The specific information I'm talking about is information gained from your wagon after the fact. While your wagon is still contending for lynch status, all the voting people on your wagon and calling yourself townie would be scummy offenses. On this site, the more you refer to yourself as town, the more likely people are to not believe you and vote you more, which if you are town, that area is a good place to look for suspects on day 2. As far as specific things to gain from you lynch over another persons, that all depends on the strength of your wagon and play during the day. If you got a lot of posts and created a lot of conversation, they you provide multiple different places to look for the next possible scum. The more interactions you have, the more specific the investigation gets. Sometimes, if your wagon was not a main point of contention throughout the day or it was a wagon created from lurking or something non-informative, then your lynch wouldn't be preferable because of the less than stellar info. That also stems from the fact that people generally don't like lynching someone on a lurking based case, mostly because that's not enough information to determine an alignment, as lurkers tend to be town as much as they are scum.
Nothing PK has done since has given me any reason to reassess my initial impression.
He hasn't done much of anything, and I would equate his play to that of a lurker. I think that's suspicious and deserves a prod, but if you are looking at his overall play and saying you don't like any of it, I have to wonder what else you are looking at aside from the first interaction you both had at the beginning.
I have no problem with you asking questions of new players, ask away, the more the better. You misread what I said. I said THAT question, meaning why were you asking a noob how many scum he thought were in the game. I didn't realise at the time but you may have been asking in case he supplied an outrageous number and you wanted to correct him, but at the time I just thought it was a stupid thing to be asking a noob about game mechanics.
I've explained this earlier. He supplied an outrageous number of possible scum, and scum have had a tendency to do this in the past because it lets them throw a lot of suspicion around and hope that some of it sticks to a town player. Even if Rith is town and nailed all three scum in that post, Rith is also putting suspicion on three townies too. It's a tactic used by scum sometimes to fearmonger and lead the town in bad directions. In a basic, which almost always has three scum, this can be seen as scummy because everyone knows there are only three different people that can be scum, and any suspects after that throws down unneeded suspicion. It's been proven though that newer players are also capable of this as well, so it's a minor point at best, which is why I inquired about Rith's experience.
Yes, it does seem very suspicious, will wait to see what Gricky's reply is. It may just be on analysis of prior game set ups; though if he were neutral, would he be wanting to draw attention away from that, and risk being assumed scummy instead (later in the game)?
Survival voting is common practive in Px2 although without a deadline for today Ahlyis could have continued to vote for PK and changed his vote only when the Mod had posteed the deadline.
I think we should lay off of the newbie card, since odds are with the number of new players here, one of them could be scum and saying that being new is a reason to act scummy is not a valid statement.
Survival voting, gotcha. Also, laying off the newbie card, gotcha. That's a pretty good call if you ask me.
So, uhm, was the insinuation that I'm scum retracted there, theatog? Cause, well, I can't possibly provide proof that Pdr really just slipped my mind. So, if you aren't gonna take it on faith, and his exemption puts me in the scum camp, well, you might as well do something about it.
Pdr: As you requested, a read out of the different players in this game:
ProphetKing: That thing at the beginning of the game is still there. Decreased posting volume. He claims he just made a gut reaction to Ahylis's thing, but I don't know the guy, and can't say if he's got the personality that would lead him to react that way. Other Px2ers: Is this out of character for PK?
Freddeh: Very low post volume. Half of his 4 posts are non-content. He reads like town, though, with the posts that are there.
theatog: Reading back through his posts, he seems very aggressive, except towards STJ and Techno. Also, how I read a few of his posts are as follows: Setting a Guy up - Accusing him of bandwagoning repeatedly when he's only voted 3 times - Trying to assert that the original role quote was indeed his role.
Pdr_Br: Most of his posts are non-content posts looking for information. Reads like town, though.
stinkyjoeterry: Claimed a ridiculous role. Not sure if we should be hounding him for that, I've heard someone make a claim similar to that before, and after that game we were chastised for not chasing him down for it, but I don't see how he could be being serious, so, idk. Also, here we get another nice little alignment between Techno and STJ (The same two people that theatog was more pleasant towards).
Ahlyis: WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Null tell. The center of attention.
Rithaniel: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly. How does black in upside down?
Emocakes: Very low number of posts. Seems to be behaving much like me. Uncertainty, tentative finger-pointing that doesn't really fold out.
MzztrTetris: Already gave my read on him, but, after some thought, I think he may be okay.
GrickyTimmick: Main scum-hunter. Pretty confident he's town. Seems a little tunnel-visioned onto Ahylis right now, though.
Gamerz: Who?
TeChNoWC: Panicky little guy. Still don't know newb scum tells, but didn't react well under pressure, so, yeah.
Can you explain why you think Freddah might be more townie that others right now, if he's got 4 posts and two are non-tells.
Noted, but it's coming from your very trap looking non-trap incident, which had legit suspicion surrounding it. Expecting someone to know better when you do something totally effing mafia-crazy is NOT solid grounds for voting someone.
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
I do understand your point. But you fail to take into account how well I know PK and he knows me (as far as Mafia is concerned). I did something completely crazy, but something which PK had to know wasn't real. With our history, there's just no way he could have thought that I was serious. No way.
Techno? Sure. He doesn't know me at all. No way I'd expect him to know for sure that it was a fake. In fact, his assumption that it was real seems normal to me as well. But for PK? Sorry, but we have too much history together for me to believe that he really thought I was serious.
If that's the norm associated with it on your site, then I'll drop it. But it seems like just a weird thing to excuse, because the action is a very telling scummy action most of the time.
Only here. It's a telling scummy action here (apparently). Over at Px2, it's not a scummy action at all. It's an expected action for anyone about to be lynched.
If it is an accepted thing on Px2, then what are some points of analysis surrounding these survival votes? Are there any way of seeing scummy things in them, or do they generally go ignored?
They're generally considered a null tell in and of themselves. There can certainly be circumstances or comments made with the vote which would be seen as suspicious. But in general, a survival vote is a null tell at Px2.
Well, on this site, survival voting is seen as OMGUS and flailing, two things that are only going to make people want to lynch you more. So those are reasons you should NOT survival vote at all.
I'll keep it in mind for the future, but not much I can do about it this game. Besides, my vote on Techno isn't purely a survival vote anyway.
Also, your lynch potentially helps the town, because if you are a townie, then scum are more inclined to be on your wagon. There's usually at least one scum on a townie wagon, if not more, so your wagon leads to analysis of the weakest wagoner and other suspicious activity.
I don't see how that's more true for me than for any other Townie. And I don't see how those benefits would outweigh the lynch of a Scum instead.
The specific information I'm talking about is information gained from your wagon after the fact. While your wagon is still contending for lynch status, all the voting people on your wagon and calling yourself townie would be scummy offenses.
That's not specific to me. That is true of ANY Townie that gets lynched.
On this site, the more you refer to yourself as town, the more likely people are to not believe you and vote you more, which if you are town, that area is a good place to look for suspects on day 2.
Whatever.
I don't normally prance around proclaiming myself to be Town. But I'm trying to defend my survival vote. In order to do that, I kind of have to put forth my arguments from the point of view that I am Town. I've tried to do so in such a way that I acknowledge that only I really know my alignment. But some of the arguments in my defense simply don't make any sense any other way.
As far as specific things to gain from you lynch over another persons, that all depends on the strength of your wagon and play during the day. If you got a lot of posts and created a lot of conversation, they you provide multiple different places to look for the next possible scum. The more interactions you have, the more specific the investigation gets. Sometimes, if your wagon was not a main point of contention throughout the day or it was a wagon created from lurking or something non-informative, then your lynch wouldn't be preferable because of the less than stellar info. That also stems from the fact that people generally don't like lynching someone on a lurking based case, mostly because that's not enough information to determine an alignment, as lurkers tend to be town as much as they are scum.
Ah, so if I shut up, and let someone else do most of the posting, you'll want to lynch them instead? That seems like a HORRID argument.
In fact, one of the things going on over at Px2 is policy lynching of lurkers. Lurking has gotten so bad that games are dying because nobody posts. It even got so bad the Mods recently instituted new rules with harsh penalties for excessive lurking, including modkills for second offenses!
But over here, you guys prefer to keep lurkers around and lynch off the most active players?
He hasn't done much of anything, and I would equate his play to that of a lurker. I think that's suspicious and deserves a prod, but if you are looking at his overall play and saying you don't like any of it, I have to wonder what else you are looking at aside from the first interaction you both had at the beginning.
Lurking is an abnormal playstyle for him. He's usually one of the more active players.
How much of that is a conscious decision and how much a result of him just being too busy in real life is not something I can answer. I can only say, it is not normal behavior for him and I find it suspicious.
The lurkers thing on this site has gone back and forth. The site has gone back and forth between a Lynch all Lurkers style (which lost a lot of games for the town, as townies are hard lurkers too) to a only lynch if there's nothing better. The latter phase is where we are now. Generally people avoid a lurker lynch in hopes that the player is replaced before we have to force their lynch. Of course, this usually ends up with a player being prodded multiple times and only posting once that occurs, so they're posting only enough to stay in the game.
As for PK, he's had a game on this site that I've played with him, and along with me reading a few from your site, I can confirm that PK's meta as town is very very active. I expected him to have a far more powerful voice than he's had in this game so far. I don't know about his scum meta, but I know this isn't his town meta. I don't like lynching lurkers, but if this lasts another day of him not posting, expect my vote to be right on his head.
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I personally prefer allotting for a larger amount of possibilities rather than tunneling on 2-3 people.
So...
In your book, it is okay to mudsling a bunch of random people in the hopes some of it sticks, just so long as you don't vote any of them. But casting your vote onto 2 or 3 people throughout the day makes you scum?
I will explain it this way Ahl: you broke my brain.
I'm not often tricked by reaction trolls but a PM quote still sets off mental alarms - it didn't even occur to me that it might be a trick at first.
I'm re-reading the game and this was LoL worthy. PK knows what I'm talking about.
Techno makes me cringe, so much that I'm beginning to think he is newb scum and not newb town. I'll expand on this in a bit.
I'm second guessing my initial double fakies call on Ahylis as I have caught scent of a ulterior pro-town reasoning behind his gambit.
I don't like Freddeh's and Rithaniel's shotgun accusations.
I think post #97 by Rithaniel is extremely suspicious because of how he pushes techno-town. This feels forced and like buddying/white-knighting to me.
I like Gricky, but that's probably because he is my MuP.
I think Survival Votes are null tells leaning town tells. In my experience scum tend to throw up their hands and give up near-lynch and town will try to fight it. The logic behind that is that, as a town player, you are the only person you know 100% to be town, so your lynch only guarantees a loss to the town, while the lynch of another player does not give you that same guarantee.
While at first it seems easy to throw your suspicion of Techno to wind he has exhibited far too many scum tells to escape the rope. I know, I did it my self. I thought I'd cut him some slack for being new, but when I re-read, so many of his posts just screamed rookie scum tell. As a player gets more experienced they learn to avoid the obvious scum tells, but an inexperienced player doesn't know what to avoid. So you find yourself with varying levels of scumtells. The bottom layer of scumtells are the classic ones you always here about, but after a few games of seeing those used, a more experienced player learns to avoid them and the avoidance of those scumtells becomes a scumtell in itself. So now that it has been established by Techno that he is in fact a newb I think the most obvious of scumtells will apply to him at this point.
So here's the most basic scumtells I find him guilty of:
1. Opportunistic voting: He is eager to lynch the "Easy Lynch" at the time (Ahylis).
2. Over concerned with his "Appearance": In post #14 he says, "I hate to appear lynch happy". The problem is that "Appearance" only matters to scum. Town just hates to be lynch happy, they don't care what the "appear" to be.
3. Fence-sitting: While he continues to push the Ahylis lynch early in the game he goes back and forth on him being town or not.
4. True Self-Preservation Concerns: Not just survival votes, but he is truly concerned about being killed at night. In post #49 he practically begs Ahylis not to kill him at night, which leads to the next point:
5. Directing the Doctor: He begs the Doctor to protect him at night because he is "Confirmed Town". This is done by rookie scum to try to secure a successful NK without concern for a Doc Stop.
6. Rolefishing: In post #61 he demands Ahylis claims for realsies. He also speculates on other players roles on a couple occasions.
7. Over-reaction to votes/Panic Claim: After a single vote, he panics and claims (#65). This is done by rookie-scum because they are paranoid and defensive that people are "On to them".
8. Over-Exaggerating his Towness: There are too many examples of this to list from his post history, but he pretty much claims "Strongest Town" and "Confirmed Town" several times. This is overplaying his towness in attempt to seem less scummy.
9. Overstating his Noobness: This is a rookie scum excuse for being scummy. I've used it myself before. Additionally, he claims uber-newber, but then uses some pretty token catch phrases, like "Ahylis isn't scumhunting," or "he's jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon"
10. Activity Decline under pressure: When the fire gets hot rookie-scum back away.
So I think it is our best course of action to lynch Techno. The fact that he has made all these scum tells already either tells us he's rookie scum or a liability in the future if he's town. If he is town, he has already put us at a disadvantage by playing as he has, if he's scum... one down X to go.
I'm second guessing my initial double fakies call on Ahylis as I have caught scent of a ulterior pro-town reasoning behind his gambit.
Can you explain it to me? Because as far as I know, I did it purely for fun and because this would be the only time I could possibly get away with it. And by "get away with it", I mean have many of the people think I was serious.
I tend to be more risk averse as Scum, but I can't say I'd never have done that as scum. The opportunity was truly once in a lifetime.
But if you think it was a gambit and not just a gambit, but one you've figured out, please tell me what it was.
You're assuming that he's scum and you know what he's doing.
I'm not assuming anything, and just taking his suspicions as what they are- suspicions.
If his actions ever parallel yours and gricky's theory, then we'll deal with that when it happens. As of right now, you're both being ridiculous, and by making such a big deal of this, ensuring that, if he is scum, he won't make that mistake later on.
I'm sorry, but I really still have no idea what we're talking about. I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't know. Who are you referring to with "his actions"?
Perhaps it would be best to start over and explain who and what we're talking about from the beginning again, because I thought that I was one of the participants, but by your latest response above, it doesn't seem that I am.
You have nothing to do with this except for the fact that you're accusing Rithanial for something that hasn't happened yet. That's like me saying that you're scum for player "X"'s myslnch even though you're just voting him and he's still alive.
Um, one of us is confused. Possibly both. Let me go back to the original piece where I entered in and try to explain myself better...
I personally prefer allotting for a larger amount of possibilities rather than tunneling on 2-3 people.
Given the context this was taken from, it says to me that you support finger pointing at multiple players, provided you don't cast a vote for any of them. It also says that you oppose casting a vote for multiple people, even as few as 2, and even if they are both your top scum suspects.
Am I missing anything? Or is that a fair assessment of your views?
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UNVOTE, VOTE: Ahylis
Impressed?
If he lied for fun, I guess I couldn't have much against that.
If he lied for a scheme, then his motive is very questionable. But still town can "set traps". and SJT, who i played with multiple times, is famous for (kinda-ineffective :P) trap-setting.
On the other hand, if he lied for a scheme but cover up saying it's just for fun, then that is pure scummy in my book.
@Ahlyis, in an ideal world where everyone would act According to your expectation. What would you expect how each of us would react to your claim. Obviously you have SOME expectation as you voted PK for not behaving how you expected.
As far as an update on SJT...I actually don't even know what to think about him anymore, he might be being too obvious to actually be scum, but then maybe hes hoping his bad posts will get lost?
Regardless, I feel that Ahlyis is more likely to be town than anyone, so I'm staying on the counterwagon that has been largely ignored lately, Techno, for both this reason and my initial paragraph's reason.
Also, I don't see anything wrong with Pdr's prod on PK, though how long do we have left in the day?
I expected several of the players NOT from Px2 to jump on me for that claim. But for the players from Px2 to come to my aid in declaring that I'm not such a newb that that claim might be serious.
I expected to generate discussion and to collect some votes, but not for this to become the sole topic of discussion for the day or for my fellow Px2 players to not only NOT support me, but to actively Vote me on it as if it were a real claim.
PK's vote on me as if he thought my claim could possibly have been real caught me off guard. I definitely was NOT expecting that from a fellow Px2 vet.
And now this crap about double fakies from another Px2 vet? What's up with that? Why is that more likely than that it was simply a fake claim I made up because I thought it would be fun to get things started off that way? Is my wording for the claim so awesome that nobody believes I could have done it myself? That it had to come from Emo because I'm such a dimwit and illiterate with no creativity of his own?
And before someone asks, no, I'm not upset. Just confused about the lack of support when, from my perspective, the other Px2 players should have seen right off that I couldn't possibly have been serious.
Makes sense to me.
I still don't see anything particularly scummy about his comment. Even if he was WRONG, it's a pretty small tell in my opinion. Someone said something earlier about PK usually posting a lot; that is bothering me more at the moment, considering scum seem to usually post as little as possible; some players are just generally like that anyway, but a change in behaviour rings alarm bells for me.
It's being talked about a lot because it's the only major development so far, besides me revealing my PM.
Have you considered that we find you intelligent and confident enough to perform the gambit with your actual post and double bluff us? And that even if you did write it yourself, that this still leads me to believe you might be scum, trying to, in a roundabout way, draw attention AWAY from yourself?
Do you see nothing inherently contradictory in those two stances?
Regardless, what possible motive would I have to draw this much attention to myself as scum? If I'm lucky, I won't get lynched over that stunt, but by no means am I going to be sporting a nice big pair of Townie Pants because of it.
This is why I'm not sure if I think your suspicious or not. Cause that WIFOM was so vast that I'm have difficulty computing it.
People I'm thinking of as potential scum right now: Ahylis, Techno, ProphetKing, theatog, Tetris (lurking and finger-pointing), & STJ. I can provide reasoning for each of them, but, I lack any real conviction as of yet. I must see more before I find conviction on any individual.
Assume I'm scum, I can't see any way I'm better off by pulling that stunt and trying to Wifom everyone than I would be if I simply hadn't done it.
At worst, it seems like a null tell unless you argue that I really did post my real role PM. If not, then I really can't see an argument that it was more scummy than it was Townie.
I'm not trying to say it was Townie. I'm just saying I see it at worst as a null tell.
Getting bad vibes from this post.
How many scum do you think are in this game?
Low content opportunist.
There isn't usually multiple PM quotations early D1.
You are suspicious of more players as potential scum than you have left for players in your suspect pool to be town.
+1
Ahlyis- 3 TeChNoWC, theatog, stinkyjoeterry
TeChNoWC - 2 Gamerz, Freddeh
ProphetKing - 1 Pdr_Br
stinkyjoeterry - 1 ProphetKing
WITH 12 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH!
I'm assuming 3, but I am trying my best to not make any assumptions, due to having lost a game on that account in the past. Key word in that post was 'potential' as in "I think these people are acting slightly scummy" and not "I think these people are scum".
I feel that the PK thing is worthy of note, and I'm also wary of that one post I linked before, so he's one I am most inclined towards. I guess Ahylis really is a null tell, but, after that magnitude of WIFOM, I doubt he will drop off my scumdar, unless he gets investigated or whatnot. I'm not familiar with newb scumtells, but the suspicions on Techno that have been raised by other players seem valid. Theatog was aggressive towards Ahylis, which could indicate that he's pushing for a lynch that he sees as easy, but if Ahylis actually is scum, my suspicions are quelled. Tetris's lurking and general desire to point fingers make him the only person whom I'd actively say with conviction is scum. STJ is lurking and posting low content.
Bad vibe why? I see his suspicions as relevant.
How many scum do YOU think are in this game? What do you hope to garner from asking this question to someone who stated they are a newbie?
Yeah, let's not ask questions of newbies. There's a good strategy!
I was just about to vote for PK, but I think I'm going to come back to you instead. Voting for you makes more sense as a survival vote, but with this latest post I think you're scummier than PK at this point anyway.
Vote: Techno
This makes me feel slightly better. This is your first game?
Also, I'd like to hear more about your only read with conviction. What makes you so sure about Tetris at this point? Please quote posts and try to explain yourself to the best of your ability.
I see his suspicions as far too many. This usually indicates that a player is either an incredibly suspicious townie or is scum trying to spread out suspicion and hope some of it sticks. The only thing I see as overly wrong with Rith's reasoning is that he's tying a few players together at an early point in the game.
As far as how many scum are in this game, there are three. I don't know for sure, but I don't have to guess either, there has been 3 scum in every basic game I have seen or been in on this site. That doesn't mean that this game couldn't be that one game, but I'd give better chances to me being struck by lightening right...about...NOW!
Nope still alive. The chances that there are 4 scum in the game are just about as good as the chances that there is an SK in a basic, which boils down to non-existent chances.
As for what I hope to garner from asking questions, regardless to the level of experience they are asked to, is information. Where a player stands on issues, who they think is town/scum, that kind of stuff. I like information because it gives me an in-game history of a players actions that I can doublecheck new actions against.
Now for your questions.
You see his suspicions as relevant? All of them? Provide reasoning.
You are a new player are you not? Should we not ask questions of you? Why are questions to new players bad but not to experienced players? Is this too many questions for you?
His post rang bells, yes, but I still see this as a weak vote. And more flopping from you. Don't know what to think about this.
Also, what do you mean "survival vote"? Could you point me in the direction of your PK vote too?
@Town: Where are you people? It's been a week or two and this is moving at a snails pace. I'm partly to blame because I've been working a crapton over this weekend and was a bit more focused on other games, but I expected to come back to this game totally unprepared for the massive amount of catchup I would have to do. Turns out that's not so. MOAR CONTINENT PLZ!
@Mod: Can you confirm that the VC is correct?
First time in a long time I've posted thrice in a row. It shan't happen again.
Can you explain why Pdr is not scummy? He poked his head in a few times then dropped back into nonpresense.
This is technically my third game. First one was a train wreck that had almost 100% new players. Second one is ongoing and only on day 1. So, I'm still relatively inexperienced, with a new acronym catching me off guard here and there.
As for why Tetris feels scummy to me, here he is very aggressive on a likely fake claim, calling it ridiculous to assume it's a gambit, and saying things like 'he needs to die' over what eventually winds up being a null tell. Feels like he's trying to start a wagon. And here, he calls it a gambit, but doesn't specify if he thinks it actually was a gambit or not. After having read back through his posts, some of my conviction has withered, and for some reason I can't call up the exact reason I thought he was more scummy than most when I was typing that post (I blame work fatigue). Those points still stand, however.
That's actually a valid way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. Pdr wasn't on that list mainly because he slipped my mind on account of the fact that he hadn't posted much.
My instinct in general is to assume the best intentions when I read something, and Mafia inherently goes against this. As a result, I believe I overcompensated here by interpreting everyone as scummy.
Also, today is the first day in two weeks that I've really had to relax, keep that in mind.
As of this post, Gamerz has been forcibly removed from the game. I will be seeking his replacement.
I don't get where these accusations keep coming from. Are people just not paying attention?
What flopping?
I've voted for 3 different people today: PK, Mzztr and Techno. Mzztr was a mistake due to misreading his post and I retracted my suspicions of him after I realized my mistake. But PK and Techno are both still scummy in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing either of them lynched.
So, if being undecided between two players and going back and forth on which you think is scummier constitutes flopping to you, then I guess I really am guilty. But that's not a definition of flopping that I'm used to. To me, flopping is jumping around from one person to another to another to another with little or no reasoning, not waffling between your top two scum candidates.
I'm the current vote leader. I'd understandably, regardless of alignment, prefer not to be lynched. Between PK and Techno, Techno is the more likely to provide an alternative to my own lynch. Thus I'm better off voting him in an attempt to survive the day.
Maybe you guys don't use survival votes around here, though I would find that very surprising.
My PK vote is way back at the beginning of the game.
Right after I made my ridiculous claim, PK came in and voted me. I found that highly scummy of him since he knows me and knows that post couldn't have been serious. So I voted him right back.
Post MOAR
@MOD: are we to assume that the last Vote Count is correct with 4 votes coming from only 3 players?
Well, your votes are constantly changing. In my world, it doesn't matter if they are changing between two people or the whole town, if they are back and forth as rapid as yours are, then it's suspicious. Also, IIRC, some of your votes have been placed for terrible reasons. Need to reread those reasons, but if you are taking your vote on PK all the way back to his reaction to your RVS shenanigans, I'm calling a boatload of crap.
Well paint yourself surprised, because a "survival vote" as you call it is pretty much a scumtell. That's like delayed-OMGUS, and any OMGUS is a scummy thing. It's also a window to your mindset. Part of your reasoning for voting him is that he's a rival lynch candidate, so that kind of skews your reasoning a little bit more, leading to tunnelvision possibly. More than that though, your mindset of "Survival" instead of "Catch Scum" is pretty scummy. The town don't care if they survive, they just care that someone ends up lynching scum so they can win. A neutral would care about survival, but they aren't in this game. A scum REALLY REALLY cares about survival, which makes your comment telling.
I understand that many players would prefer not to be lynched, but that doesn't mean that a townie's thoughts normally dwell on survival. Even a townie knows that there's info to be gained from his or her lynch. So your mindset of survival is really a telling point about your alignment.
I remember this, but wasn't aware that was the same reason you hopped back on his wagon. What about his play since then?
Whatever. Call it what you want.
Just because it happened a long time ago doesn't somehow make it any less scummy.
Again, whatever.
Survival votes are EXPECTED over at Px2, for ANY alignment. True, there are times when it is better to take the lynch than try to push it off, but on Day 1? I'm not aware of any reasons I should want to die, especially over someone I think may be scum.
Still, you can call it scummy all you want, but you're basing it being a scumtell on the norms of this site. But in this game, you have HALF the players used to the norms of a different site.
Okay, survival votes here are frowned on. I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. But calling me scummy for it in this game isn't really justified. If you don't believe me, ask the other Px2 players, or go visit Px2 and look at some of the games there. Survival votes are part of the meta there.
Only in so far as my mindset is shaped by my Px2 experience. As I said above, it's an expected behavior at Px2, for both Town and Scum.
This is bullcrap. Town don't mind dying if it helps catch scum. There's times when letting yourself be lynched will help catch scum. I don't believe letting myself get lynched on Day 1 is going to help catch scum moreso than anyone else's lynch. If anything, I think it less likely since if we lynch someone else, we might actually lynch scum outright, not later down the line.
Yes, I know you can't accept that argument from your perspective because you don't KNOW that I'm Town. But put yourself in my shoes and assume that I am Town for the moment. How does letting myself get lynched today help Town more than fighting to get someone I find scummy lynched instead? Why should I NOT survival vote today?
They aren't? Where'd you get this info? All the arguments I've seen to this point say that there ARE Self aligned players in this game, at least one. The primary argument being the wording of the wincon in the sample role PM by the Mod.
So how is it you know, for a fact, that there are no Self aligned in this game? Or is this just an attempt at misdirection? Are YOU the Self aligned in this game?
Call that fishing if you want, but I think it a reasonable question given your assertion.
Again, this is a meta difference between Px2 and here. Believe that or not, your call.
You can keep harping on the same point time after time throughout your post, that doesn't magically make it true just because you've repeated it enough times.
Town shouldn't mind dying under various circumstances. A claimed Cop with several results being killed confirms their results if they are Town, or throws Wifom on the fire if they aren't. A Mason death can often confirm their mason partner as Town. Various different role interactions can mean that letting yourself die will provide SPECIFIC information to the Town.
What specific information will the Town gain from my lynch? And by specific I mean, what info will Town gain from my death that they won't gain from anyone else's death? True, different people will be implicated or exonerated to varying degrees, but at this point there's nothing specific to be gained by letting myself die. Letting myself die means a dead Townie, guaranteed (from my perspective). Trying to get someone else lynched means there's still a chance Scum dies today.
Nothing PK has done since has given me any reason to reassess my initial impression.
Where did you get this information from? How do you know it with such certainty? Indications we have so far run contrary to your assertion.
Does anyone else think Gricky may be Self aligned, trying to hide this little snippet of disinformation buried in his larger post against me?
I have no problem with you asking questions of new players, ask away, the more the better. You misread what I said. I said THAT question, meaning why were you asking a noob how many scum he thought were in the game. I didn't realise at the time but you may have been asking in case he supplied an outrageous number and you wanted to correct him, but at the time I just thought it was a stupid thing to be asking a noob about game mechanics.
Yes, it does seem very suspicious, will wait to see what Gricky's reply is. It may just be on analysis of prior game set ups; though if he were neutral, would he be wanting to draw attention away from that, and risk being assumed scummy instead (later in the game)?
So this is your first game too?
Pdr: As you requested, a read out of the different players in this game:
ProphetKing: That thing at the beginning of the game is still there. Decreased posting volume. He claims he just made a gut reaction to Ahylis's thing, but I don't know the guy, and can't say if he's got the personality that would lead him to react that way. Other Px2ers: Is this out of character for PK?
Freddeh: Very low post volume. Half of his 4 posts are non-content. He reads like town, though, with the posts that are there.
theatog: Reading back through his posts, he seems very aggressive, except towards STJ and Techno. Also, how I read a few of his posts are as follows: Setting a Guy up - Accusing him of bandwagoning repeatedly when he's only voted 3 times - Trying to assert that the original role quote was indeed his role.
Pdr_Br: Most of his posts are non-content posts looking for information. Reads like town, though.
stinkyjoeterry: Claimed a ridiculous role. Not sure if we should be hounding him for that, I've heard someone make a claim similar to that before, and after that game we were chastised for not chasing him down for it, but I don't see how he could be being serious, so, idk. Also, here we get another nice little alignment between Techno and STJ (The same two people that theatog was more pleasant towards).
Ahlyis: WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Null tell. The center of attention.
Rithaniel: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly. How does black in upside down?
Emocakes: Very low number of posts. Seems to be behaving much like me. Uncertainty, tentative finger-pointing that doesn't really fold out.
MzztrTetris: Already gave my read on him, but, after some thought, I think he may be okay.
GrickyTimmick: Main scum-hunter. Pretty confident he's town. Seems a little tunnel-visioned onto Ahylis right now, though.
Gamerz: Who?
TeChNoWC: Panicky little guy. Still don't know newb scum tells, but didn't react well under pressure, so, yeah.
I doubt it. From what I understand, basics have very low chances of having neutrals. I might be wrong, but Gricky is coming across as one of the most town players here. I'd be shocked if he was a neutral.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
He's one of the few people in this game not locked on Ahlyis about his enormous WIFOM or Tech and his auto-claim. It just feels like Gricky is seeing the big picture and is doing more than most to keep us from running in circles.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
And thus, the proper ordering of the universe is maintained.
I don't even remember that vote. Was I still under the impression of your slip? Or had we already cleared it up at that point?
Fair enough.
Lots of differences between Px2 and here.
I just checked. It was after... 10 whole minutes after.
Yeah, no chance I still had you on the brain at that time.
Noted, but it's coming from your very trap looking non-trap incident, which had legit suspicion surrounding it. Expecting someone to know better when you do something totally effing mafia-crazy is NOT solid grounds for voting someone.
If that's the norm associated with it on your site, then I'll drop it. But it seems like just a weird thing to excuse, because the action is a very telling scummy action most of the time.
If it is an accepted thing on Px2, then what are some points of analysis surrounding these survival votes? Are there any way of seeing scummy things in them, or do they generally go ignored?
OK.
Well, on this site, survival voting is seen as OMGUS and flailing, two things that are only going to make people want to lynch you more. So those are reasons you should NOT survival vote at all. Also, your lynch potentially helps the town, because if you are a townie, then scum are more inclined to be on your wagon. There's usually at least one scum on a townie wagon, if not more, so your wagon leads to analysis of the weakest wagoner and other suspicious activity.
Also, I don't see how you can call my argument BS when you admit that it's a possibility in the very next sentence. Still, with the Px2 history that I've read, it's a moot point.
I didn't start the game knowing for sure that neutrals aren't in the game, but my knowledge of basics tells me nearly 100% that there isn't a neutral in this game, just like there prolly isn't a serial killer. Now, I'll give their existence a longshot possibility, but I've never seen them in another basic.
Ok.
The specific information I'm talking about is information gained from your wagon after the fact. While your wagon is still contending for lynch status, all the voting people on your wagon and calling yourself townie would be scummy offenses. On this site, the more you refer to yourself as town, the more likely people are to not believe you and vote you more, which if you are town, that area is a good place to look for suspects on day 2. As far as specific things to gain from you lynch over another persons, that all depends on the strength of your wagon and play during the day. If you got a lot of posts and created a lot of conversation, they you provide multiple different places to look for the next possible scum. The more interactions you have, the more specific the investigation gets. Sometimes, if your wagon was not a main point of contention throughout the day or it was a wagon created from lurking or something non-informative, then your lynch wouldn't be preferable because of the less than stellar info. That also stems from the fact that people generally don't like lynching someone on a lurking based case, mostly because that's not enough information to determine an alignment, as lurkers tend to be town as much as they are scum.
He hasn't done much of anything, and I would equate his play to that of a lurker. I think that's suspicious and deserves a prod, but if you are looking at his overall play and saying you don't like any of it, I have to wonder what else you are looking at aside from the first interaction you both had at the beginning.
Answered above.
I've explained this earlier. He supplied an outrageous number of possible scum, and scum have had a tendency to do this in the past because it lets them throw a lot of suspicion around and hope that some of it sticks to a town player. Even if Rith is town and nailed all three scum in that post, Rith is also putting suspicion on three townies too. It's a tactic used by scum sometimes to fearmonger and lead the town in bad directions. In a basic, which almost always has three scum, this can be seen as scummy because everyone knows there are only three different people that can be scum, and any suspects after that throws down unneeded suspicion. It's been proven though that newer players are also capable of this as well, so it's a minor point at best, which is why I inquired about Rith's experience.
Answered above in the Ahl ramble.
Survival voting, gotcha. Also, laying off the newbie card, gotcha. That's a pretty good call if you ask me.
Can you explain why you think Freddah might be more townie that others right now, if he's got 4 posts and two are non-tells.
Read my response to Techno above.
I do understand your point. But you fail to take into account how well I know PK and he knows me (as far as Mafia is concerned). I did something completely crazy, but something which PK had to know wasn't real. With our history, there's just no way he could have thought that I was serious. No way.
Techno? Sure. He doesn't know me at all. No way I'd expect him to know for sure that it was a fake. In fact, his assumption that it was real seems normal to me as well. But for PK? Sorry, but we have too much history together for me to believe that he really thought I was serious.
Only here. It's a telling scummy action here (apparently). Over at Px2, it's not a scummy action at all. It's an expected action for anyone about to be lynched.
They're generally considered a null tell in and of themselves. There can certainly be circumstances or comments made with the vote which would be seen as suspicious. But in general, a survival vote is a null tell at Px2.
I'll keep it in mind for the future, but not much I can do about it this game. Besides, my vote on Techno isn't purely a survival vote anyway.
I don't see how that's more true for me than for any other Townie. And I don't see how those benefits would outweigh the lynch of a Scum instead.
That's not specific to me. That is true of ANY Townie that gets lynched.
Whatever.
I don't normally prance around proclaiming myself to be Town. But I'm trying to defend my survival vote. In order to do that, I kind of have to put forth my arguments from the point of view that I am Town. I've tried to do so in such a way that I acknowledge that only I really know my alignment. But some of the arguments in my defense simply don't make any sense any other way.
Ah, so if I shut up, and let someone else do most of the posting, you'll want to lynch them instead? That seems like a HORRID argument.
In fact, one of the things going on over at Px2 is policy lynching of lurkers. Lurking has gotten so bad that games are dying because nobody posts. It even got so bad the Mods recently instituted new rules with harsh penalties for excessive lurking, including modkills for second offenses!
But over here, you guys prefer to keep lurkers around and lynch off the most active players?
VERY different metas we have.
Lurking is an abnormal playstyle for him. He's usually one of the more active players.
How much of that is a conscious decision and how much a result of him just being too busy in real life is not something I can answer. I can only say, it is not normal behavior for him and I find it suspicious.
As for PK, he's had a game on this site that I've played with him, and along with me reading a few from your site, I can confirm that PK's meta as town is very very active. I expected him to have a far more powerful voice than he's had in this game so far. I don't know about his scum meta, but I know this isn't his town meta. I don't like lynching lurkers, but if this lasts another day of him not posting, expect my vote to be right on his head.
So...
In your book, it is okay to mudsling a bunch of random people in the hopes some of it sticks, just so long as you don't vote any of them. But casting your vote onto 2 or 3 people throughout the day makes you scum?
Interesting beliefs you've got there!
I'm re-reading the game and this was LoL worthy. PK knows what I'm talking about.
Techno makes me cringe, so much that I'm beginning to think he is newb scum and not newb town. I'll expand on this in a bit.
I'm second guessing my initial double fakies call on Ahylis as I have caught scent of a ulterior pro-town reasoning behind his gambit.
I don't like Freddeh's and Rithaniel's shotgun accusations.
I think post #97 by Rithaniel is extremely suspicious because of how he pushes techno-town. This feels forced and like buddying/white-knighting to me.
I like Gricky, but that's probably because he is my MuP.
I think Survival Votes are null tells leaning town tells. In my experience scum tend to throw up their hands and give up near-lynch and town will try to fight it. The logic behind that is that, as a town player, you are the only person you know 100% to be town, so your lynch only guarantees a loss to the town, while the lynch of another player does not give you that same guarantee.
While at first it seems easy to throw your suspicion of Techno to wind he has exhibited far too many scum tells to escape the rope. I know, I did it my self. I thought I'd cut him some slack for being new, but when I re-read, so many of his posts just screamed rookie scum tell. As a player gets more experienced they learn to avoid the obvious scum tells, but an inexperienced player doesn't know what to avoid. So you find yourself with varying levels of scumtells. The bottom layer of scumtells are the classic ones you always here about, but after a few games of seeing those used, a more experienced player learns to avoid them and the avoidance of those scumtells becomes a scumtell in itself. So now that it has been established by Techno that he is in fact a newb I think the most obvious of scumtells will apply to him at this point.
So here's the most basic scumtells I find him guilty of:
1. Opportunistic voting: He is eager to lynch the "Easy Lynch" at the time (Ahylis).
2. Over concerned with his "Appearance": In post #14 he says, "I hate to appear lynch happy". The problem is that "Appearance" only matters to scum. Town just hates to be lynch happy, they don't care what the "appear" to be.
3. Fence-sitting: While he continues to push the Ahylis lynch early in the game he goes back and forth on him being town or not.
4. True Self-Preservation Concerns: Not just survival votes, but he is truly concerned about being killed at night. In post #49 he practically begs Ahylis not to kill him at night, which leads to the next point:
5. Directing the Doctor: He begs the Doctor to protect him at night because he is "Confirmed Town". This is done by rookie scum to try to secure a successful NK without concern for a Doc Stop.
6. Rolefishing: In post #61 he demands Ahylis claims for realsies. He also speculates on other players roles on a couple occasions.
7. Over-reaction to votes/Panic Claim: After a single vote, he panics and claims (#65). This is done by rookie-scum because they are paranoid and defensive that people are "On to them".
8. Over-Exaggerating his Towness: There are too many examples of this to list from his post history, but he pretty much claims "Strongest Town" and "Confirmed Town" several times. This is overplaying his towness in attempt to seem less scummy.
9. Overstating his Noobness: This is a rookie scum excuse for being scummy. I've used it myself before. Additionally, he claims uber-newber, but then uses some pretty token catch phrases, like "Ahylis isn't scumhunting," or "he's jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon"
10. Activity Decline under pressure: When the fire gets hot rookie-scum back away.
So I think it is our best course of action to lynch Techno. The fact that he has made all these scum tells already either tells us he's rookie scum or a liability in the future if he's town. If he is town, he has already put us at a disadvantage by playing as he has, if he's scum... one down X to go.
UNVOTE, VOTE: Techno
Can you explain it to me? Because as far as I know, I did it purely for fun and because this would be the only time I could possibly get away with it. And by "get away with it", I mean have many of the people think I was serious.
I tend to be more risk averse as Scum, but I can't say I'd never have done that as scum. The opportunity was truly once in a lifetime.
But if you think it was a gambit and not just a gambit, but one you've figured out, please tell me what it was.
Huh?
No, seriously. I have no idea what you mean.
I'm sorry, but I really still have no idea what we're talking about. I'm not trying to be an ass. I really don't know. Who are you referring to with "his actions"?
Perhaps it would be best to start over and explain who and what we're talking about from the beginning again, because I thought that I was one of the participants, but by your latest response above, it doesn't seem that I am.
Um, one of us is confused. Possibly both. Let me go back to the original piece where I entered in and try to explain myself better...
Given the context this was taken from, it says to me that you support finger pointing at multiple players, provided you don't cast a vote for any of them. It also says that you oppose casting a vote for multiple people, even as few as 2, and even if they are both your top scum suspects.
Am I missing anything? Or is that a fair assessment of your views?