I would like to express my reservations again about this idea. See my previous posts in this thread. I just don't see this as something we need in this subforum at all.
The whole point of a league is to have individualistic point-hogging behavior. It's for competition and bragging rights. Currently the only ruler we have to measure a player's skill is win percentage, and even then it's largely inaccurate. I don't think I have to explain why.
The purpose of the judges is to keep the behavior in check and allow for someone without a stake in the game to have the final word on scoring.
No it isn't something we absolutely need, but I know that for a lot of game players, seeing a scoreboard to conquer can only stimulate activity, especially when those boards are wiped clean every so often.
The whole point of a league is to have individualistic point-hogging behavior. It's for competition and bragging rights. Currently the only ruler we have to measure a player's skill is win percentage, and even then it's largely inaccurate. I don't think I have to explain why.
The purpose of the judges is to keep the behavior in check and allow for someone without a stake in the game to have the final word on scoring.
No it isn't something we absolutely need, but I know that for a lot of game players, seeing a scoreboard to conquer can only stimulate activity, especially when those boards are wiped clean every so often.
What if the winner of the league got a little gold trophy for winning the League in the repscetive year. I know the reward isn't much, but it would stimulate activity as well.
Everyone knows who the great players on this site are regardless of their win percentage. "Bragging rights" and excessive competition are exactly why I think this is inadvisable. It sounds like it will just create drama, ridiculous behavior, and lead to more problems than it's worth.
Everyone knows who the great players on this site are regardless of their win percentage. "Bragging rights" and excessive competition are exactly why I think this is inadvisable. It sounds like it will just create drama, ridiculous behavior, and lead to more problems than it's worth.
I fully respect what you are saying, but don't agree with it fully. I don't believe this is going to stop the league from starting. Too many players are shwoing interest at this point.
If the league does start, what are you going to do then? I would hope that would at least judge the games, if not, play in them.
Everyone knows who the great players on this site are regardless of their win percentage. "Bragging rights" and excessive competition are exactly why I think this is inadvisable. It sounds like it will just create drama, ridiculous behavior, and lead to more problems than it's worth.
Define 'excessive'.
There's nothing wrong with competition, and everyone is now defining the rules by which their play will be measured. The only drama that can come from this is complaints with how the league is designed to score participants, and that is precisely what a pre-season is for. Clearly there is a demand for a league and it has been there for a long time. We shouldn't just 'not try' because it 'might' have adverse side effects.
Well, I mean, if we are being perfectly honest any decision (including the decision NOT to implement the league) will have its cons. We just have to be assured that the positives far outweigh the negatives.
I fully respect what you are saying, but don't agree with it fully. I don't believe this is going to stop the league from starting. Too many players are shwoing interest at this point.
If the league does start, what are you going to do then? I would hope that would at least judge the games, if not, play in them.
I didn't think that my reiterating that I find this to be a bad idea would stop it from happening, but I'm not going to take any part in any league games.
There's nothing wrong with competition, and everyone is now defining the rules by which their play will be measured. The only drama that can come from this is complaints with how the league is designed to score participants, and that is precisely what a pre-season is for. Clearly there is a demand for a league and it has been there for a long time. We shouldn't just 'not try' because it 'might' have adverse side effects.
Winning the game is the only competition I find that I need in mafia games. Artificial systems of awarding points do nothing for me. The best players on this site have developed their reputations through consistent solid performances, not by finishing high up on an arbitrary table by having their games judged by people who aren't part of the game.
At the end of the game, everyone knows who played well and who didn't. I don't see why anyone feels the need to reduce that to numbers. Because it'll massage their e-peens, maybe?
At any rate, I'm not looking to get into an argument with the league's proponents. I've said my piece.
Pro:
All of posts #154 & 158
Current judges & secretary
Scoring Rubric
Playerbase=judge
4-6 permanent judges
Adding scores
Minimum # of games
Normal/mid-level mini levels of complexity
5 games with aggressive & strict Day/Night deadlines
League-specific games, and I'll elaborate on this one.
What stops league players from jumping into soft games (unless this is ruled against) as one of the last players, and just cleaning house? Alternatively, having standards for league game design seems like a positive.
Neutral:
Mods/Players = judge
Another set # of games
Averaging scores
Zindabad's argument, which I agree with on certain points (people know who the great players are here, scores/records aside) & understand, but think the positives will outweigh the negatives.
Against:
Rotating judges
Betting
Having a 10 game season could reasonably last 3 years.
- By this, I meant minimum that each player needs to play in to get scored for the season.
Edit: What does everyone think of making the pool of games run a direct extension of the PCQ? Everyone not in the league who wants to run a game (including the judges) can submit a game to the pool of choices and the league players can vote on it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Great idea Iso. It gives the players even more say in what they are judged in and will invite more people to participate.
EDIT: We could also consider the possibility of running an Open or Semi-open setup where everyone knows exactly what roles are / could be in the game. I find that this reduces the amount of swingyness since everyone knows what to expect and also encourages better behavioral analysis since the scum could be virtually anyone.
I'd like to get submissions for the first league game started. Everyone who is interested should PM me a setup blurb, including:
# of players
Complexity
Flavor
Anything else noteworthy about the setup
I'll put them in a separate folder in my messages and present them later on when we have everything all set up.
I would also like to create an "MTGS Mafia League: Season 1" sign-ups thread once the scoring rubric is decided upon. Emo_Pinata, Ged, ZeDorkSlipeur, and I are discussing it in a QuickTopic now, which I will provide for transparency once everything is decided on.
I spoke to Seppel and he is interested in judging, so we will definitely have at least 5 static judges. I have advised him to contact Sene to add his permissions to view the League Judge sub-subforum.
Arnnaria, I'll have Sene also add you (since I can't recall if I informed him of that or not).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I believe the system we have decided on is as follows:
There will be 6 judges.
One judge will run the currently running League game.
The other 5 will score the players.
Judges and non-players can submit setups to me, and I will present them to the League with a blurb about the setup. The League players will vote on the setup they want to play the most, and the judge for that rotation will run the game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I wouldn't mind one game of more difficult than those. Maybe that should be the final league game? Give an extra incentive to a players score for how long they survive in that game?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Simple to moderately complex, I think, is what we're aiming for.
Per our discussion, the players should have some discretion in this. However, I concur that our hosts should be encouraged to focus on allowing for clean behavioral analysis over all else. To the extent a complicated setup that creates confusion or puzzles would interfere with that, it should be avoided.
Per our discussion, the players should have some discretion in this. However, I concur that our hosts should be encouraged to focus on allowing for clean behavioral analysis over all else. To the extent a complicated setup that creates confusion or puzzles would interfere with that, it should be avoided.
I think this says it best, but I wouldn't mind the last game of the League being a tricky one.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I agree with Iso on the PCQ, and Azrael on the simplicity issue. Some higher-than-basic levels of complexity are nice, and I wouldn't be completely opposed to the last game of the season being Specialty level, but behavioral analysis has to come first.
Depending on how flavor-intense the game is, you may also want to feature a co-mod arrangement.
If it's a game submitted by a non-judge, they can write flavor if they wish and help out when the judge running the game can't post - I see no problem with this.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'd like to see the league start in the next couple of months. Since it looks like I'm judging, I'm going to put a setup together and get with the others to talk about setup design and probably some administrative stuff to take care of the logistics of running this thing. I want to try to involve the council as little as possible since they have enough responsibilities already. If we can get some sort of discussion system for judges going, that would help. I'd like to have a handful of setups to work with and let the league competitors pick what they want to play. The only issue I see is players deciding 'not to play' if the game they wanted doesn't get picked.
EDIT: I now have a semi-open game ready for review from the other judges. The flavor is Star Wars Mafia.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Mafia League is a series of six mafia games for league players. To join the league you must commit to playing three of the six offered games. You can play more (and there are incentives for playing more), but three is the minimum. If you play more than the required amount, the new score (if better) will replace your lowest scoring game.
During the game a group of six judges will be paying attention to your play. After the game is over, scores based on the included rubric will be given out. Only the maximum score is listed. You will also receive an "outsider review" summarizing why you got that score and details on how you can improve in future games.
Scores will be determined on a per player basis. It is entirely possible for a person with an awesome Day One who gets Night Killed that Night could get a higher score than a player with poor performance who lives to the end of the game. We realize that since roles are randomized and play is subjective, there is no concrete and objective way to outright judge performance. So, in the spirit of this we will only be tabulating your three highest scores to determine your ending league score. This is the reward for playing more games I was talking about.
League games will follow the commonly accepted rules of Mafia. If you show unsportsmanlike conduct, replace out in two league games, or are modkilled in two league games for rules violations, the judges have the right to disqualify you from future League games. This is a friendly competition for bragging rights and a trophy next to your screenname; this is not an ugly bar-room brawl for the brass ring. Please play as such.
The Pre-season of the League is meant to hammer out any problems that only crop up while playing. Think of it as the 'beta testing' phase. So while your score will have relevance in the future, it will not be guaranteed to be 100% bug free.
Not interested in League play? There are other opportunities to participate. We are currently looking for hosts, setups, and replacements.
If you are just looking for a good game with good players, non-league participants will be allowed in league games! If you find after two league games that you wish to join the league, judges are willing to retroactively judge your performance in previous league games you participated in.
If you want to run a League game as a Host, our "Mod-Judge" will Co-host the game with you. The Co-host will be as hands on as you desire; she/he can fully run the setup for you or just be a back-up in the case you can't run it anymore. This is to allow everyone who would have previously submitted to the PCQ to still get a chance to host while still maintaining the integrity of the League game. If you're interested in submitting a League setup for review, PM any of the listed judges or the bookkeeper. Make sure you get a response to acknowledge it was received.
Replacements into a League game get a small bonus to their score to catch them up to other players and a little extra as a token of appreciation.
If you are interested in playing in the league, please post here. If you have reservations, questions, comments, or concerns please post those here as well.
Thank you for your participation and support!
Current Rubric (Max score listed, judges determine how much of a score to give for a particular event) -
Townie Scoring System:
-7.5 points for being lynched.
-5 points for every townie death they participate in.
-2.5 points for every townie mislynch they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+2.5 point for every scum death they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+5 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against a mafia or SK.
+7.5 points for every mafia or SK death they participate in (through vig, track, investigation, etc.).
Mafia scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2.5 point for every non-mafia lynch they participate in.
SK scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 point for each night period they are alive for.
+5 points for every threat's death they participate in (this is anyone that can kill them through a night action and the cop).
Non-SK Neutral scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 for each successful step towards win condition.
Post game scoring:
-10 for team loss.
+5 for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+10 points for townie win.
+10 for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+10 points for mafia win.
+20 points for SK win.
Bonus Points:
+2.5 for MVP honorable mention (judges rule, may be for winning or losing side, may be awarded to multiple players).
+2.5 for mod recognition award (mod rule).
+2.5/day played before replacing in, +10 for replacing in.
+2.5 for MVP of losing team (judges rule).
+5 for MVP of winning team (judges rule).
Penalties:
-30 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-20 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-10 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-10 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).
Thanks to ZeDorkSlipeur, Emo_Pinata, Ged and Iso for contributing to the score system.
Current Judges -
ganderin_dan, Iso, KittyCupCake, Kraj, Seppel, Zionite The Bookkeeper -
Arnnaria
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Pre-season of the League is meant to hammer out any problems that only crop up while playing. Think of it as the 'beta testing' phase. So while your score will have relevance in the future, it will not be guaranteed to be 100% bug free.
Does this mean that there is going to be a proof-of-concept League game run before the actual rotation starts in order to work out the bugs, or is it just noting that things are not set in stone yet, so your score from Game 1 might not end up being precisely evaluated by the listed metric?
Does this mean that there is going to be a proof-of-concept League game run before the actual rotation starts in order to work out the bugs, or is it just noting that things are not set in stone yet, so your score from Game 1 might not end up being precisely evaluated by the listed metric?
We're going with a full rotation to test everything. The listed metric can change, but if that is the case then changes may be retro-active. So if you got a replacement bonus in Game 1, but we reduced that bonus by Game 4, your bonus from Game 1 would fall in line. That creates a large workload, but it's something being considered. We will be retro-actively scoring some games anyway for players who participate in league games but aren't being scored until later.
The idea is that players who participate in the pre-season have their 'beta league' stats preserved, so it stays relevant with the passage of time.
Question, are the 6 games going to be run one after another or will there be a game getting close to finish and a new one will start?
It will probably be consecutive order for now; that's the easiest way for us to figure out how a game went before starting the voting process on the next one.
One more question, is there a cap on the number of people that can sign up?
I assume not, because preference would be given to those who have below 3 games.
No cap on sign-ups. Players openly participating in the league will take precedence over people who aren't, and players who haven't met their quota of 3 games will be preferred over those who have. I don't really see an issue arising from this, but we will keep an eye on it to make sure everyone is accounted for.
I still think a free-for-all league with a time limit will work better overall (both in the accuracy of final scores and in how much fun the players are having) than a more controlled league with a game limit, but eh, that's what's testing is for.
I'll definitely be watching and following the rankings (they'll be public, right?), in any case.
Could you elaborate on this idea? Everything is being considered; it's better to speak up now rather than later.
I don't see why the rankings shouldn't be public. It would especially help to figure out if the scores are matching the player's skills.
Well, Zion I was pondering an unlikely, but possible scenario where we have a lot of sign-ups and at the final game, we have more people under 3 games than spots in the game.
Extremely, extremely unlikely, but something that could feasibly happen.
I think it's the player's responsibility to make sure they have 3 games. Since the last game will probably be the most popular, players should try to have 3 games before the last game comes around. I recommend aiming for 4 games total, but we don't want to force playing all of them and we don't want minimalists punished for their play-style either.
If someone is holding off playing their last required game simply to have a guaranteed spot, we would find that in bad taste and probably pass the slot to someone else.
That does also mean that you can have a maximum of about 40 people signed up for the league, but given the number of regulars here, that shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Actually, wait - does this system mean that the judges will not be playing in any of these games? I can see that going in two ways. Either they can't play at all, so that they can fully discuss the happenings real-time and assign the fairest point values they can, or we allow some of them to play (minus the guest mod, obv) and assume that the post-game pointing will be done without bias. I think I would prefer the latter, actually - it would feel weird to have a six-game set of Mafia played to determine rankings when some of our better and more active players are sitting off on the sidelines.
Wow, whoever wrote Post # 196 must be an intelligent guy.
Seriously though, the scores are probably going to have to be public to see any error. The rubric is very specific on how one earns points and how one loses points. Without a doubt, in the pre-season the odds of a judge mistake or a bookkeeping mistake are potentially high.
The only question I'd ask is if the participants would want their "outsider reviews" made public.
That does also mean that you can have a maximum of about 40 people signed up for the league, but given the number of regulars here, that shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Actually, wait - does this system mean that the judges will not be playing in any of these games? I can see that going in two ways. Either they can't play at all, so that they can fully discuss the happenings real-time and assign the fairest point values they can, or we allow some of them to play (minus the guest mod, obv) and assume that the post-game pointing will be done without bias. I think I would prefer the latter, actually - it would feel weird to have a six-game set of Mafia played to determine rankings when some of our better and more active players are sitting off on the sidelines.
Judges will probably rotate out as the seasons change. They will not be allowed to play in the same season they are judging since every game is reviewed as a group.
Wow, whoever wrote Post # 196 must be an intelligent guy.
Seriously though, the scores are probably going to have to be public to see any error. The rubric is very specific on how one earns points and how one loses points. Without a doubt, in the pre-season the odds of a judge mistake or a bookkeeping mistake are potentially high.
The only question I'd ask is if the participants would want their "outsider reviews" made public.
right, the constructive criticism should be private. If the player wants to share the feedback, they can.
6 Games to a Season is almost if not over a full real life year of activity. Thats a lot of time for any judge to be sitting out. Especially when there might be flavor they really want to /in.
6 Games to a Season is almost if not over a full real life year of activity. Thats a lot of time for any judge to be sitting out. Especially when there might be flavor they really want to /in.
This. I'm willing to assume that the group of judges will be able to separate themselves enough from the game to give fair scores afterwards, regardless of their own involvement in the game. Plus, not all of them will be in every game, and those who are in will very possibly not make it to the end. Whichever of them aren't currently playing can prepare tentative scores, and whenever the game ends they all get together and finalize things then.
I mean, if the six of you are fine not playing any League games until late 2013, I guess I can't force you to... but I think it would be better if you did have the option.
The discussion we had basically concluded that it would be impossible to remain unbiased while playing a game with someone you are scoring. Judges can still sign up for non-league games. We are basically using caution here to avoid problems with it in the future. I have no problem doing the judge thing for awhile since I prefer to facilitate rather than play most of the time. We already have a few setups we are looking at and everyone understands they can't play in a game they have seen the setup to.
However, since we haven't seen setups from anyone yet except our own, we might be able to put a judge in a league game provided she/he abstains from the reviewing process. It would basically mean inviting everyone else to a QT for reviewing and leaving out the judge who wants to play. Other than the bias issue, it's a plausible fix.
@ZDS: if I am understanding you correctly, you basically want a start point and an end point and judge everything in between? The way you presented it seems disorganized.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
The purpose of the judges is to keep the behavior in check and allow for someone without a stake in the game to have the final word on scoring.
No it isn't something we absolutely need, but I know that for a lot of game players, seeing a scoreboard to conquer can only stimulate activity, especially when those boards are wiped clean every so often.
What if the winner of the league got a little gold trophy for winning the League in the repscetive year. I know the reward isn't much, but it would stimulate activity as well.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I fully respect what you are saying, but don't agree with it fully. I don't believe this is going to stop the league from starting. Too many players are shwoing interest at this point.
If the league does start, what are you going to do then? I would hope that would at least judge the games, if not, play in them.
Define 'excessive'.
There's nothing wrong with competition, and everyone is now defining the rules by which their play will be measured. The only drama that can come from this is complaints with how the league is designed to score participants, and that is precisely what a pre-season is for. Clearly there is a demand for a league and it has been there for a long time. We shouldn't just 'not try' because it 'might' have adverse side effects.
I didn't think that my reiterating that I find this to be a bad idea would stop it from happening, but I'm not going to take any part in any league games.
Winning the game is the only competition I find that I need in mafia games. Artificial systems of awarding points do nothing for me. The best players on this site have developed their reputations through consistent solid performances, not by finishing high up on an arbitrary table by having their games judged by people who aren't part of the game.
At the end of the game, everyone knows who played well and who didn't. I don't see why anyone feels the need to reduce that to numbers. Because it'll massage their e-peens, maybe?
At any rate, I'm not looking to get into an argument with the league's proponents. I've said my piece.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
All of posts #154 & 158
Current judges & secretary
Scoring Rubric
Playerbase=judge
4-6 permanent judges
Adding scores
Minimum # of games
Normal/mid-level mini levels of complexity
5 games with aggressive & strict Day/Night deadlines
League-specific games, and I'll elaborate on this one.
What stops league players from jumping into soft games (unless this is ruled against) as one of the last players, and just cleaning house? Alternatively, having standards for league game design seems like a positive.
Neutral:
Mods/Players = judge
Another set # of games
Averaging scores
Zindabad's argument, which I agree with on certain points (people know who the great players are here, scores/records aside) & understand, but think the positives will outweigh the negatives.
Against:
Rotating judges
Betting
Having a 10 game season could reasonably last 3 years.
- By this, I meant minimum that each player needs to play in to get scored for the season.
Edit: What does everyone think of making the pool of games run a direct extension of the PCQ? Everyone not in the league who wants to run a game (including the judges) can submit a game to the pool of choices and the league players can vote on it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
EDIT: We could also consider the possibility of running an Open or Semi-open setup where everyone knows exactly what roles are / could be in the game. I find that this reduces the amount of swingyness since everyone knows what to expect and also encourages better behavioral analysis since the scum could be virtually anyone.
# of players
Complexity
Flavor
Anything else noteworthy about the setup
I'll put them in a separate folder in my messages and present them later on when we have everything all set up.
I would also like to create an "MTGS Mafia League: Season 1" sign-ups thread once the scoring rubric is decided upon. Emo_Pinata, Ged, ZeDorkSlipeur, and I are discussing it in a QuickTopic now, which I will provide for transparency once everything is decided on.
I spoke to Seppel and he is interested in judging, so we will definitely have at least 5 static judges. I have advised him to contact Sene to add his permissions to view the League Judge sub-subforum.
Arnnaria, I'll have Sene also add you (since I can't recall if I informed him of that or not).
Does anyone have any questions?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
LOL
There will be 6 judges.
One judge will run the currently running League game.
The other 5 will score the players.
Judges and non-players can submit setups to me, and I will present them to the League with a blurb about the setup. The League players will vote on the setup they want to play the most, and the judge for that rotation will run the game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What are the restrictions on game setups?
LOL
Simple to moderately complex, I think, is what we're aiming for.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Per our discussion, the players should have some discretion in this. However, I concur that our hosts should be encouraged to focus on allowing for clean behavioral analysis over all else. To the extent a complicated setup that creates confusion or puzzles would interfere with that, it should be avoided.
I think this says it best, but I wouldn't mind the last game of the League being a tricky one.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Depending on how flavor-intense the game is, you may also want to feature a co-mod arrangement.
And has anyone come up with what kinds of games will be included? Should the first "Season" consist of Basics?
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
If it's a game submitted by a non-judge, they can write flavor if they wish and help out when the judge running the game can't post - I see no problem with this.
I can dig it.
Nope, and probably not. I feel like that would decrease interest in the League overall.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is an interesting idea and worth discussing, though it seems like the full league idea is moving forward.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
EDIT: I now have a semi-open game ready for review from the other judges. The flavor is Star Wars Mafia.
As things stand:
Judges -
Kraj
Iso
ganderin_dan
KittyCupCake
Seppel
Zionite
Bookkeeper -
Arnnaria
Score system creators -
ZeDorkSlipeur
Emo_Pinata
Ged
Iso
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Mafia League is a series of six mafia games for league players. To join the league you must commit to playing three of the six offered games. You can play more (and there are incentives for playing more), but three is the minimum. If you play more than the required amount, the new score (if better) will replace your lowest scoring game.
During the game a group of six judges will be paying attention to your play. After the game is over, scores based on the included rubric will be given out. Only the maximum score is listed. You will also receive an "outsider review" summarizing why you got that score and details on how you can improve in future games.
Scores will be determined on a per player basis. It is entirely possible for a person with an awesome Day One who gets Night Killed that Night could get a higher score than a player with poor performance who lives to the end of the game. We realize that since roles are randomized and play is subjective, there is no concrete and objective way to outright judge performance. So, in the spirit of this we will only be tabulating your three highest scores to determine your ending league score. This is the reward for playing more games I was talking about.
League games will follow the commonly accepted rules of Mafia. If you show unsportsmanlike conduct, replace out in two league games, or are modkilled in two league games for rules violations, the judges have the right to disqualify you from future League games. This is a friendly competition for bragging rights and a trophy next to your screenname; this is not an ugly bar-room brawl for the brass ring. Please play as such.
The Pre-season of the League is meant to hammer out any problems that only crop up while playing. Think of it as the 'beta testing' phase. So while your score will have relevance in the future, it will not be guaranteed to be 100% bug free.
Not interested in League play? There are other opportunities to participate. We are currently looking for hosts, setups, and replacements.
If you are just looking for a good game with good players, non-league participants will be allowed in league games! If you find after two league games that you wish to join the league, judges are willing to retroactively judge your performance in previous league games you participated in.
If you want to run a League game as a Host, our "Mod-Judge" will Co-host the game with you. The Co-host will be as hands on as you desire; she/he can fully run the setup for you or just be a back-up in the case you can't run it anymore. This is to allow everyone who would have previously submitted to the PCQ to still get a chance to host while still maintaining the integrity of the League game. If you're interested in submitting a League setup for review, PM any of the listed judges or the bookkeeper. Make sure you get a response to acknowledge it was received.
Replacements into a League game get a small bonus to their score to catch them up to other players and a little extra as a token of appreciation.
If you are interested in playing in the league, please post here. If you have reservations, questions, comments, or concerns please post those here as well.
Thank you for your participation and support!
Current Rubric (Max score listed, judges determine how much of a score to give for a particular event) -
Townie Scoring System:
-7.5 points for being lynched.
-5 points for every townie death they participate in.
-2.5 points for every townie mislynch they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+2.5 point for every scum death they did not take part in, but were alive for.
+5 points for each unsuccessful end-of-day vote against a mafia or SK.
+7.5 points for every mafia or SK death they participate in (through vig, track, investigation, etc.).
Mafia scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 point for each night period they are alive for.
+2.5 point for every non-mafia lynch they participate in.
SK scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 point for each night period they are alive for.
+5 points for every threat's death they participate in (this is anyone that can kill them through a night action and the cop).
Non-SK Neutral scoring system:
-2.5 point for leaving the game without fulfilling win condition.
+2.5 for each successful step towards win condition.
Post game scoring:
-10 for team loss.
+5 for fulfilling any alternative/additional win conditions.
+10 points for townie win.
+10 for non-SK neutral fulfilling win condition.
+10 points for mafia win.
+20 points for SK win.
Bonus Points:
+2.5 for MVP honorable mention (judges rule, may be for winning or losing side, may be awarded to multiple players).
+2.5 for mod recognition award (mod rule).
+2.5/day played before replacing in, +10 for replacing in.
+2.5 for MVP of losing team (judges rule).
+5 for MVP of winning team (judges rule).
Penalties:
-30 for (forced) replacing out/modkill for activity (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-20 for modkill for rule breaking (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-10 for replacing out voluntarily (gains no points or bonus after receiving this).
-10 for bad sportsmanship (flaming, trolling, etc.)(judges rule, mod nomination).
Thanks to ZeDorkSlipeur, Emo_Pinata, Ged and Iso for contributing to the score system.
Current Judges -
ganderin_dan, Iso, KittyCupCake, Kraj, Seppel, Zionite
The Bookkeeper -
Arnnaria
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Family
Does this mean that there is going to be a proof-of-concept League game run before the actual rotation starts in order to work out the bugs, or is it just noting that things are not set in stone yet, so your score from Game 1 might not end up being precisely evaluated by the listed metric?
We're going with a full rotation to test everything. The listed metric can change, but if that is the case then changes may be retro-active. So if you got a replacement bonus in Game 1, but we reduced that bonus by Game 4, your bonus from Game 1 would fall in line. That creates a large workload, but it's something being considered. We will be retro-actively scoring some games anyway for players who participate in league games but aren't being scored until later.
The idea is that players who participate in the pre-season have their 'beta league' stats preserved, so it stays relevant with the passage of time.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIt will probably be consecutive order for now; that's the easiest way for us to figure out how a game went before starting the voting process on the next one.
I assume not, because preference would be given to those who have below 3 games.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyNo cap on sign-ups. Players openly participating in the league will take precedence over people who aren't, and players who haven't met their quota of 3 games will be preferred over those who have. I don't really see an issue arising from this, but we will keep an eye on it to make sure everyone is accounted for.
Could you elaborate on this idea? Everything is being considered; it's better to speak up now rather than later.
I don't see why the rankings shouldn't be public. It would especially help to figure out if the scores are matching the player's skills.
Extremely, extremely unlikely, but something that could feasibly happen.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIf someone is holding off playing their last required game simply to have a guaranteed spot, we would find that in bad taste and probably pass the slot to someone else.
Actually, wait - does this system mean that the judges will not be playing in any of these games? I can see that going in two ways. Either they can't play at all, so that they can fully discuss the happenings real-time and assign the fairest point values they can, or we allow some of them to play (minus the guest mod, obv) and assume that the post-game pointing will be done without bias. I think I would prefer the latter, actually - it would feel weird to have a six-game set of Mafia played to determine rankings when some of our better and more active players are sitting off on the sidelines.
Seriously though, the scores are probably going to have to be public to see any error. The rubric is very specific on how one earns points and how one loses points. Without a doubt, in the pre-season the odds of a judge mistake or a bookkeeping mistake are potentially high.
The only question I'd ask is if the participants would want their "outsider reviews" made public.
Judges will probably rotate out as the seasons change. They will not be allowed to play in the same season they are judging since every game is reviewed as a group.
right, the constructive criticism should be private. If the player wants to share the feedback, they can.
The Family
This. I'm willing to assume that the group of judges will be able to separate themselves enough from the game to give fair scores afterwards, regardless of their own involvement in the game. Plus, not all of them will be in every game, and those who are in will very possibly not make it to the end. Whichever of them aren't currently playing can prepare tentative scores, and whenever the game ends they all get together and finalize things then.
I mean, if the six of you are fine not playing any League games until late 2013, I guess I can't force you to... but I think it would be better if you did have the option.
However, since we haven't seen setups from anyone yet except our own, we might be able to put a judge in a league game provided she/he abstains from the reviewing process. It would basically mean inviting everyone else to a QT for reviewing and leaving out the judge who wants to play. Other than the bias issue, it's a plausible fix.
@ZDS: if I am understanding you correctly, you basically want a start point and an end point and judge everything in between? The way you presented it seems disorganized.