2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
pinkfloyd could have claimed a 1-shot public Cop, and Eron could have claimed Doctor and we never would have been able to get around that. This is why I push for un-CCed PRs to be lynched sometimes. I think the town was woefully underpowered in this game.
I don't think town was underpowered per se. My problem about this setup is that scum was given pretty infallible provided false-claims. And that's not common on this site, in fact I've never seen a game where the false-claims where so strong like that (the powers were even real).
Just a little warning like "expect unnusual roles in this game, do not try to modgame like you are all used to do all the time" would have gone a long way to prepare the town for what we saw.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Yeah. Though in fairness, if I had figured out what I figured out on the last Day (that the two-named people that claimed were auto-town), that would have saved us a lot of trouble.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I know it happens my friend, but my point is how likely? Scum cannot always play around everything or they cannot do anything. "Ok, I will fakeclaim X, but what if someone is a rolecop and investigated me? or tracked me? or watched my target?", "ok I need to kill X, but what if someone will doc him? or they roleblock me? or track me?". Eventually scum have to take risks and the bigger the risk, the bigger should be the reward.
I once fakeclaimed a cop in a game where one townie haven't claimed yet and I hit jackpot because there was not a cop. I won that game.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Yeah. Though in fairness, if I had figured out what I figured out on the last Day (that the two-named people that claimed were auto-town), that would have saved us a lot of trouble.
Sorry but that's a bad premisse. We know this to be true a posteriori, but Arim had posted somewhere why this reasoning has a hole. Scum could have noticed only town had two-names and mimicked one or two to muddy the waters.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Yeah. Though in fairness, if I had figured out what I figured out on the last Day (that the two-named people that claimed were auto-town), that would have saved us a lot of trouble.
Scum doctor is not a problem my friend, it's a pretty cool role for scum in the right scenario. The problem is: town had no protective roles PLUS town had no vig meaning scum doctor is very, very, very improbable in this scenario, doctor is a total red herring, even more I would call that bad design and borderline bastardly.
@Ged can you comment on my constructive critic too?
EH?
/pulls out old man reading glasses
What was this game again?
/pulls out reviewer notes
Ah, yes, a scum doctor with no town kills is dumb. I missed that. If the town had had even a one shot vig it could protect against I'd be okay with it, but literally no town kills makes that a bit of a bastard move. Personally I'm very much down with putting in roles that reward the town for lynching people they might normally be hesitant to because I want to promote a play analysis > role analysis based culture. I would have no problem with a scum doc and no town protective roles (though it's a bit of a jerk move), but a useless scum doc is probably over the line.
I also don't have a problem with the mafia one shot cop in theory, but it's rough when you've also got that claimable doc role going around. I just missed the fact that two mafia could each claim different parts of that role - or maybe I just missed the fact that there were no role-reveals which would have hurt that plan a lot. I definitely would've advised revealing roles (at least titles) on death if I'd caught that.
Then there's the no-lynch role which was a hot-fix for the previous role which was even more busted. The role is basically a bonus kill for the mafia, though it comes at the cost of giving the town another round of actions. When you put that on top of two otherwise underpowered mafia roles (if you were like me and didn't think about how good of claims they were getting), I don't think it was broken.
Overall, the mafia were definitely OP, but not by a ton. The town had some serious juice going for it, too. The cop that can deliver her results is just incredible even if there's some uncertainty in her accuracy. If Regina is obviously town enough and gets people to say the words, then she's really, really good. If you cut any one of the mafia abilities, I'd still put my stamp of approval on this - I'd probably go with the cop ability because it feels out of place, then make the "you don't even go here!" ability night based to make the mafia doc have a purpose.
Anyway, I suppose it's in the past now. Sounds like people had fun anyway, which is the whole point.
Yeah. Though in fairness, if I had figured out what I figured out on the last Day (that the two-named people that claimed were auto-town), that would have saved us a lot of trouble.
Sorry but that's a bad premisse. We know this to be true a posteriori, but Arim had posted somewhere why this reasoning has a hole. Scum could have noticed only town had two-names and mimicked one or two to muddy the waters.
Yep. Although I had the ulterior motive of wanting to prevent players I knew to be town from getting cleared, my argument was sound. Had my particular combination of names not been irreconcilable (short of some explanation involving plastic surgery), I could have claimed both my names just as safely as the second and third townies did.
I guess I don't understand the "bastard" part of it. If a gamemaker can do anything then why expect anything less? It's not my fault you fall into the rut of role gaming :/ I shouldn't have to tell you to "expect the unexpected" and I did go so far as to say don't flavor game which you did anyway. I think you've just been a little spoiled by the expected
I guess I don't understand the "bastard" part of it. If a gamemaker can do anything then why expect anything less? It's not my fault you fall into the rut of role gaming :/ I shouldn't have to tell you to "expect the unexpected" and I did go so far as to say don't flavor game which you did anyway. I think you've just been a little spoiled by the expected
I agree up to the point where you give people roles that actually do nothing but mislead. It's like a miller in a game without a cop (note that I would not count this game as such) - the only thing this role does is mislead people. A miller in a game with a one shot cop is fine - the role does something, even if that something is extremely rare. But with no cop at all you're just telling people to look out for something that doesn't exist, and that's close to a definition of bastard design. A mafia doc with no town killing roles is equivalent.
On the other hand, minis are allowed to have pretty out there design. If you're signing up for a mini instead of a basic, you should understand the level of complexity that comes with that. Some level of bastardry isn't out of the question.
Yep. Although I had the ulterior motive of wanting to prevent players I knew to be town from getting cleared, my argument was sound. Had my particular combination of names not been irreconcilable (short of some explanation involving plastic surgery), I could have claimed both my names just as safely as the second and third townies did.
This. Actually that was exactly what I thought back there. "what Arim says is right but he's probably scum so he's trying to not let us confirm town players that easily".
I guess I don't understand the "bastard" part of it. If a gamemaker can do anything then why expect anything less? It's not my fault you fall into the rut of role gaming :/ I shouldn't have to tell you to "expect the unexpected" and I did go so far as to say don't flavor game which you did anyway. I think you've just been a little spoiled by the expected
You are mixing concepts, I don't flavor game, and I don't remember anyone flavorgaming in this game. Yeah, we did setup speculate and modgame and that's usually fine in those forums. You are right that a gamemaker can do anything he desires, but the players usually have some beliefs they expect to be true, and it's not fun to lose to a red herring like that. If we were at least warned for shenanigans I would not have cleared PF so easily.
On the other hand, minis are allowed to have pretty out there design. If you're signing up for a mini instead of a basic, you should understand the level of complexity that comes with that. Some level of bastardry isn't out of the question.
I think bastardry has nothing to do with complexity, I can totally create a bastard basic or a complex game that's totally non-bastard. When I signup a game I really don't expect bastardry unless noted. That being said you are right, I enjoyed this game, and that's what matters after all.
Private Mod Note
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The problem with me using my ability to confirm I was town was that I would have to investigate someone I knew was town. I didn't like the trade off of confirming someone.
The problem with me using my ability to confirm I was town was that I would have to investigate someone I knew was town. I didn't like the trade off of confirming someone.
Yeah, and that's exactly the reason for why you would be confirmed town while doing it.
a)your ability doesn't make sense on scum.
b)if you were scum and has this nonsense ability you would never use it.
Plus you would use that ability on someone you guys wanted to off on the night anyway, considering you knew there was not a town doc, killing the confirmed townie would be easy.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I just question the actual level of bastardness of giving a scum a doctor then letting the scum expect town night kills and yet they still win? If the scum is the one expecting night kills from town that affects 3 people in the game and the town once they've explained all their abilities could analyze...wait if we don't have a person claiming night kill,....why do we have a doctor... If you're expecting something because of a role and yet all the roles have been claimed and don't question this one that seems to have no purpose that's not really my fault.
Oh well I'm happy the way the game went. I would have loved for Pinky's ability to get steam rolling. I was thinking if she claimed "I can't be lynched if everyone says this word" but not reveal the no kill she could have gotten proof of the ability, protection that night possibly stolen a night kill and made it easier to stop the scum from saying her word the next day.
I think bastardry has nothing to do with complexity, I can totally create a bastard basic or a complex game that's totally non-bastard. When I signup a game I really don't expect bastardry unless noted. That being said you are right, I enjoyed this game, and that's what matters after all.
I agree that it's possible to create a bastard basic (2 cops, 7 townies, 2 goons, 1 RB), my point was more that in general when you sign up for a mini you should... maybe not expect a certain level of bastardness, but at least be prepared for it. Even without a warning, roles like the ones in this game are fair play in a mini. A high density of them may warrant a warning, but whatever.
Again, I think the game did favor the scum. But I also don't think even a fixed version would've necessitated a bastard warning.
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just a little warning like "expect unnusual roles in this game, do not try to modgame like you are all used to do all the time" would have gone a long way to prepare the town for what we saw.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I know it happens my friend, but my point is how likely? Scum cannot always play around everything or they cannot do anything. "Ok, I will fakeclaim X, but what if someone is a rolecop and investigated me? or tracked me? or watched my target?", "ok I need to kill X, but what if someone will doc him? or they roleblock me? or track me?". Eventually scum have to take risks and the bigger the risk, the bigger should be the reward.
I once fakeclaimed a cop in a game where one townie haven't claimed yet and I hit jackpot because there was not a cop. I won that game.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Yet you still lynched me.
EH?
/pulls out old man reading glasses
What was this game again?
/pulls out reviewer notes
Ah, yes, a scum doctor with no town kills is dumb. I missed that. If the town had had even a one shot vig it could protect against I'd be okay with it, but literally no town kills makes that a bit of a bastard move. Personally I'm very much down with putting in roles that reward the town for lynching people they might normally be hesitant to because I want to promote a play analysis > role analysis based culture. I would have no problem with a scum doc and no town protective roles (though it's a bit of a jerk move), but a useless scum doc is probably over the line.
I also don't have a problem with the mafia one shot cop in theory, but it's rough when you've also got that claimable doc role going around. I just missed the fact that two mafia could each claim different parts of that role - or maybe I just missed the fact that there were no role-reveals which would have hurt that plan a lot. I definitely would've advised revealing roles (at least titles) on death if I'd caught that.
Then there's the no-lynch role which was a hot-fix for the previous role which was even more busted. The role is basically a bonus kill for the mafia, though it comes at the cost of giving the town another round of actions. When you put that on top of two otherwise underpowered mafia roles (if you were like me and didn't think about how good of claims they were getting), I don't think it was broken.
Overall, the mafia were definitely OP, but not by a ton. The town had some serious juice going for it, too. The cop that can deliver her results is just incredible even if there's some uncertainty in her accuracy. If Regina is obviously town enough and gets people to say the words, then she's really, really good. If you cut any one of the mafia abilities, I'd still put my stamp of approval on this - I'd probably go with the cop ability because it feels out of place, then make the "you don't even go here!" ability night based to make the mafia doc have a purpose.
Anyway, I suppose it's in the past now. Sounds like people had fun anyway, which is the whole point.
Yep. Although I had the ulterior motive of wanting to prevent players I knew to be town from getting cleared, my argument was sound. Had my particular combination of names not been irreconcilable (short of some explanation involving plastic surgery), I could have claimed both my names just as safely as the second and third townies did.
I agree up to the point where you give people roles that actually do nothing but mislead. It's like a miller in a game without a cop (note that I would not count this game as such) - the only thing this role does is mislead people. A miller in a game with a one shot cop is fine - the role does something, even if that something is extremely rare. But with no cop at all you're just telling people to look out for something that doesn't exist, and that's close to a definition of bastard design. A mafia doc with no town killing roles is equivalent.
On the other hand, minis are allowed to have pretty out there design. If you're signing up for a mini instead of a basic, you should understand the level of complexity that comes with that. Some level of bastardry isn't out of the question.
You are mixing concepts, I don't flavor game, and I don't remember anyone flavorgaming in this game. Yeah, we did setup speculate and modgame and that's usually fine in those forums. You are right that a gamemaker can do anything he desires, but the players usually have some beliefs they expect to be true, and it's not fun to lose to a red herring like that. If we were at least warned for shenanigans I would not have cleared PF so easily.
I think bastardry has nothing to do with complexity, I can totally create a bastard basic or a complex game that's totally non-bastard. When I signup a game I really don't expect bastardry unless noted. That being said you are right, I enjoyed this game, and that's what matters after all.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
LOL
a)your ability doesn't make sense on scum.
b)if you were scum and has this nonsense ability you would never use it.
Plus you would use that ability on someone you guys wanted to off on the night anyway, considering you knew there was not a town doc, killing the confirmed townie would be easy.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Oh well I'm happy the way the game went. I would have loved for Pinky's ability to get steam rolling. I was thinking if she claimed "I can't be lynched if everyone says this word" but not reveal the no kill she could have gotten proof of the ability, protection that night possibly stolen a night kill and made it easier to stop the scum from saying her word the next day.
I agree that it's possible to create a bastard basic (2 cops, 7 townies, 2 goons, 1 RB), my point was more that in general when you sign up for a mini you should... maybe not expect a certain level of bastardness, but at least be prepared for it. Even without a warning, roles like the ones in this game are fair play in a mini. A high density of them may warrant a warning, but whatever.
Again, I think the game did favor the scum. But I also don't think even a fixed version would've necessitated a bastard warning.