Do you currently have any scumspects other than Iso?
I'm down on Wuffles for his inability to be substantive combined with the sycophant love for DYH and Deathjoey for the aforementioned "unwilling to answer a basic question which might have consequences."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Which Friday? Do you mean you've been without Internet since the 17th?
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
In all seriousness, there's really not much to do until Joey stops lurking and claims. He's already at L-2, so more votes won't help. Not that I'm expecting much, he's tried laying low and lurked way too much for my personal liking.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm down on Wuffles for his inability to be substantive combined with the sycophant love for DYH and Deathjoey for the aforementioned "unwilling to answer a basic question which might have consequences."
Yeah, Wuffles is sucking up quite a bit, and hasn't posted anything worthwhile. Not impressed, either.
This game has stalled a little; a claim should help push us forward a bit.
While I don't think the DeathJoey wagon is terrible - it does carry the typical "well, let's roll a newbie over" momentum, as seen by my 'already wary' of Jobie stance not changing with this post.
While I don't think the DeathJoey wagon is terrible - it does carry the typical "well, let's roll a newbie over" momentum, as seen by my 'already wary' of Jobie stance not changing with this post.
How do you propose we push the game forward then? Vote a lurking noob for a claim seems like a valid place to go to.
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Do you not see how these things could be helpful in analysis?
I suppose it could be helpful, but digging too deep into what was obviously a joke doesn't seem useful when I have plenty of other posts you could be analyzing. Just saying.
How do you propose we push the game forward then? Vote a lurking noob for a claim seems like a valid place to go to.
We should not be pushing for claims just to see a claim. We should be pushing for claims when we're ready to lynch and don't want to lynch a confirmable power role. Your mentality is extremely anti-town.
Charm is shady. However, Charm is usually shady. The things you highlight don't concern me as much as how Charm fails to mention(/register?) that Iso being suspicious requires Deathjoey to be scum in the first place.
That is, in fact, the rub. You are making a lot of sense this game so far. Town++
One thing I'm finding, time and time again, is that scum love placing votes without explanation, and at this stage of the game, weak behavioral tells are all we have.
I'm happy to see where this goes.
Given that he had an explanation, your vote is the very thing you've vilified.
Dig what? A hole for yourself? I think you're town but you're really not making yourself likeable this game. I know this is part of your "stay neutralish to live until end game and be analysis man" plan, but it doesn't seem to be going well this game, so maybe you should just try hard for once.
I don't like Iso for the self meta and his interactions. Ced is town and the charm master wagon is silly.
If you start speaking Spanish manders I really do not have time to translate it, so I will probably not be happy. And its only cool when Kpaca does it because he is swagged out.
More reason for me to no likey Vote Iso
Scotch is a hellava drink. I was partying for 3 days, saaarry!
I'm more of a sociopath
This vote on Iso is basically a naked vote couched in quotes. I'm not very pleased with this.
Any behavior that can be considered townie can be applied to my scum game and any behavior that can be considered scummy can be applied to my town game. One has to understand my intent in order to understand my alignment. Clearly you do not.
This is the exact thing you said in Osteria and it is still pointless. This is one of the things you really should not bother saying.
Again, I do not care about about meta and how you play your games. I'm only concerned about this game you are in and if you are playing like a scum player would, or a town player would.
By the same token, however, not caring about Iso's meta is irresponsible. You're willfully ignoring information - not a townie action.
Because by using that specific word, implies that you think I've done something which needed backpedaling.
Now what was it that I did, that you thought was going to make me go, Oh ****... Ctrl+zzzz
Because I agree with that statement, although I originally thought that it was directed at YOU, not ced =/
Well, you've definitely done things you'd like to take back at this point, I'm sure. That awful naked vote after RVS was over is probably something you'd like to have back, yeah.
More serious...?
It was only half serious at the time, because I acknowledge that what he said was during RVS, so I let it slide.
But now, I really don't like how he gets to bull past questions and basically random his way through this game, just because he's Iso =/
You're trying to bull past questions too. How is this different from what you're accusing Iso of?
We should not be pushing for claims just to see a claim. We should be pushing for claims when we're ready to lynch and don't want to lynch a confirmable power role. Your mentality is extremely anti-town.
Hi, my name is Jobie and I love lynching lurkers and using role information to find scum on Day 1.
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While I don't think the DeathJoey wagon is terrible - it does carry the typical "well, let's roll a newbie over" momentum, as seen by my 'already wary' of Jobie stance not changing with this post.
It's like when you ask your crushes to go with you to the prom but they've already got dates. Deathjoey is the going-just-as-friends girl of Peso del Grande.
In that case no one should claim before we lynch them.
This is a complete non-argument. There is no way to get to "lynch people without claims" from "this game has all of twelve players and no flavor." The point is the incentives for "eh, let's get a claim out of them" are dampened given the complete lack of flavor and cramped design space given the game size. You haven't looked DJ's way all day and now you want to kick the tires?
Quote from Jobie »
I never thought I'd see the day I would have to crusade for role-based analysis on MTGS.
Your holy war is against straw. No one has suggested that if Deathjoey claims we ought not analyze it.
Even if I did, I still didn't start out as mafia. I had no idea who my buddies would have been (hence me pushing the Arcadic lynch as hard as I did). I don't think you can draw an accurate parallel between early posts from that game and "AsianInvasion's scum meta" in general.
I'm sure I could find more examples from better games, but I'd rather just keep my eyes on you for more proof. I've got too much crap to do to go looking for meta evidence.
1. Semantics. I'm more concerned with mindset tells.
Wtf does that have to do with anything? What are you suggesting?
2. The tone of your post suggests that you are on the up-and-up regarding your own contributions to the town, which doesn't strike me as genuine.
The only post I've submitted that could be construed as not contributing to the game was the one where I voted you and provided no reasons. Since then, I've definitely been playing the game. So, for you to say that it read disingenuous is actually what is disingenuous.
3. I only have one vote.
Your attempt to illicit an emotional reaction is noted. But, even if you did decide to change your vote to me, that's supposed to be heat? One vote from someone I'm pretty sure is scum?
Seemed like intentional reaction trolling given the "Overdramatic" snafu.
Are you saying this is why you thought I did it?
If you're going to have enough information to FoS someone at the start of a game, you may as well vote for them. It's not like early votes do anything irreversible or carry substantial risk.
Why are you telling me this?
I don't mind barning unless its a high percentage of your actions compared to independent thought.
Eh, barning happens. You gotta look at the whole picture, which I'm pretty sure I've already spelled out pretty well.
I don't think this comparison follows. There's a difference between making an unexplained statement and agreeing with a fleshed out expression of thought.
Barely. Both have the person performing them not contributing an original opinion.
This isn't a response to the ideas behind the accusations, as poor as they are.
We should not be pushing for claims just to see a claim. We should be pushing for claims when we're ready to lynch and don't want to lynch a confirmable power role. Your mentality is extremely anti-town.
This reads completely forced. Did it hurt spewing out that bit of theory?
That is, in fact, the rub. You are making a lot of sense this game so far. Town++
A word of advice: Cedwick always makes sense. He is, by far, one of the hardest players to read on this site. I wouldn't give him too many town points too soon.
Is this an X-rated message board? I ask because your vote's attire leaves nothing to the imagination.
It was naked for a reason, but I've already shown I had reasons when I made it.
This is a complete non-argument. There is no way to get to "lynch people without claims" from "this game has all of twelve players and no flavor."
Fair, hyperbole got the best of me there.
Quote from PK »
The point is the incentives for "eh, let's get a claim out of them" are dampened given the complete lack of flavor and cramped design space given the game size. You haven't looked DJ's way all day and now you want to kick the tires?
Correct. I was reaffirmed when there were no posts for almost 24 hours.
Your holy war is against straw. No one has suggested that if Deathjoey claims we ought not analyze it.
You're crusading against my vote for Deathjoey to claim. I can unvote and we can continue our silent circlejerk or we can push forward through our current lull and go somewhere.
EWP: @Manders: What was my alignment there again? (Hint: It was town).
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I'm sure I could find more examples from better games, but I'd rather just keep my eyes on you for more proof. I've got too much crap to do to go looking for meta evidence.
Says the player who went out of her way to dig up flawed meta evidence.
Wtf does that have to do with anything? What are you suggesting?
You are arguing semantics, which is a waste of time and a terrible way to scum-hunt. Your insistence on tunneling me and inability to think outside the box are not helpful in the slightest.
The only post I've submitted that could be construed as not contributing to the game was the one where I voted you and provided no reasons. Since then, I've definitely been playing the game. So, for you to say that it read disingenuous is actually what is disingenuous.
I don't think you've been doing much of anything other than get on my case for ridiculous things.
Your attempt to illicit an emotional reaction is noted. But, even if you did decide to change your vote to me, that's supposed to be heat? One vote from someone I'm pretty sure is scum?
Says the player who went out of her way to dig up flawed meta evidence.
The town meta I provided is not the same as what you're doing here. So not completely flawed.
In fact, you completely ignored that and went straight for the easy, "Oh, I wasn't scum at that point" argument.
You are arguing semantics, which is a waste of time and a terrible way to scum-hunt. Your insistence on tunneling me and inability to think outside the box are not helpful in the slightest.
I'm arguing semantics? There's no possible way that me saying, "Are you going to play the game?" can be construed as "getting on his case". Period. Yet you went there.
I don't think you've been doing much of anything other than get on my case for ridiculous things.
Haven't had time or the inclination to do much of anything else. Doesn't mean I'm not watching other players.
You seem pretty heated to me.
Yeah, well, you know how much I dislike that smilie, yet use it anyway.
In fact, you know you are the reason I dislike that smilie so much.
Yet you used it anyway. I don't need you to teach me anything.
No, but if all of your posts are going to be this bad, this game is going to give me a headache.
Not seeing how that isn't still RVS. Yes, it was a total overreaction, but nobody was voting seriously at that point in time.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Yes, I'm going to "handwave" your psychological evaluations. You don't have enough information on Charm to make statements like your profile tells you he would lash out instead of retracting as scum.
And why do you think that, PK? Do you know who I am?
Quote from ProphetKing »
Your self-endorsement doesn't impress me either.
Considering I'm pushing against you, I wouldn't expect it to. I'm not trying to win YOU over.
Quote from ProphetKing »
There's your cue your case is terrible.
"Your case is terrible because my reasoning was terrible."
Seems legit.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Seriously?
People employ arguments they think will work. If you're aware that your argument is obviously on paper wrong, you don't have incentive to use it. Attributing motivation to "secretly hoping everyone else is really terrible" is some of the worst analysis you can make.
Quote from ProphetKing »
And? You asked my why I voted for Charm given my grasp for game flow.
Which I still find lacking.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I too doubt I would have voted for you if all the reasons I'm voting for you didn't exist.
So you are voting for me because I am advocating your lynch. That is blatant OMGUS and you know it.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Trying too hard here to frame what I'm doing in a negative light.
You're doing it just fine for me.
Quote from ProphetKing »
An explanation of why I'm happier to pull the trigger is not an excuse, nor is acknowledging my Charm vote is a weak vote is a confession of poor actions. I don't need strong reasons to make a weak vote at the beginning of the game.
Uhh, when there are other things that are stronger tells that you can be voting for, yeah, I think you do.
Quote from ProphetKing »
If I need to be excused from knowing the Inner Workings of MTGS' Meta, I think I'll get the hall pass.
No passes from me. The only two people I tend to ignore until endgames are kpaca and Seppel simply because they're the players I've been the most wrong about in the past.
Quote from ProphetKing »
It's cute you think I'll care about you chastising me.
Seemed like an appropriate phrase to begin that segment with.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I suppose it could be helpful, but digging too deep into what was obviously a joke doesn't seem useful when I have plenty of other posts you could be analyzing. Just saying.
It's far more convoluted than I'd prefer to get into here, but suffice it to say the fact you didn't know off the top of your head when you'd last done it was a minor point in your favor in my mind.
Quote from AI »
We should not be pushing for claims just to see a claim. We should be pushing for claims when we're ready to lynch and don't want to lynch a confirmable power role. Your mentality is extremely anti-town.
It's like when you ask your crushes to go with you to the prom but they've already got dates. Deathjoey is the going-just-as-friends girl of Peso del Grande.
Nice analogy. And I keep wanting to call this game Pico de Gallo. That's exactly my problem with the wagon, though, as I alluded to earlier.
Correct. I was reaffirmed when there were no posts for almost 24 hours.
You're crusading against my vote for Deathjoey to claim. I can unvote and we can continue our silent circlejerk or we can push forward through our current lull and go somewhere.
EWP: @Manders: What was my alignment there again? (Hint: It was town).
False dilemma. Weekend + sick Iso + missing Manders, etc. has made for lower posting rate. [commerical fine-print voice] Past results are not indicative of future success. [/end voice]
And that seems to be a rather defensive response to someone who did not indicate she found you scummy for your behavior. Someone who played in that game with you and obviously knew your alignment.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It doesn't matter who you are. You could be the reincarnation of Freud. My problem is you claim to have constructed a profile from a sample size of five or less posts. You don't even have a meta record or any sort of prior history.
To say a singular action has probable psychological causes or trends is one thing. To say you've compiled a profile off what is essentially the dust of atoms of a scrap of the information to make something that could be considered more seriously than a joke, there's zero credibility.
There is a reason psychologists spend more than five minutes in the office with you.
Quote from Iso »
Considering I'm pushing against you, I wouldn't expect it to. I'm not trying to win YOU over.
Given that was originally a reply to a declaration of me not taking you seriously, I see no reason to assume it was not an attempt to persuade me.
Quote from Iso »
"Your case is terrible because my reasoning was terrible."
Seems legit.
This isn't even close to an accurate portrayal of events or my comments.
First off, you admitted that it was an overreaction from Charm. There you go - my vote has a case for validity now. You can't move the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient.
Second, my argument is not "Iso's case is terrible because I used terrible reasoning." My argument is you're assigning my motivation to be aggressively stupid, taking an incoherent action akin to planning to fail. The reasoning you're assigning my actions is based on a caricature unlikely to exist.
Quote from Iso »
Terribly Unfunny Meme Image
If you're going to twist what I'm saying and not even reply to my chain of thought, you could at least pick a funny image.
Quote from Iso »
Which I still find lacking.
Given you've conceded the reasoning I've cited, I can't think of a good reason you would find my vote lacking.
Quote from PK »
I too doubt I would have voted for you if all the reasons I'm voting for you didn't exist.
Quote from Iso »
So you are voting for me because I am advocating your lynch. That is blatant OMGUS and you know it.
You're not even trying to be objective.
There is an obvious difference between voting someone for making a poor case which happens to be on you and voting someone because they voted for you - and you know it.
Quote from Iso »
No passes from me. The only two people I tend to ignore until endgames are kpaca and Seppel simply because they're the players I've been the most wrong about in the past.
I'm not asking for a pass against accountability for all my thoughts and actions. Ignoring me (or anyone) would be a terrible play. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to hold my lack of inherent "MTGSness" against me when meta squabbles surface.
Quote from Iso »
Seemed like an appropriate phrase to begin that segment with.
You push man, don't be surprised when you get pushed back.
Quote from Iso »
Perhaps someday.
How am I supposed to make pithy comments when you act so cute?
Not really what I expected from you given our historical interactions.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
False dilemma. Weekend + sick Iso + missing Manders, etc. has made for lower posting rate. [commerical fine-print voice] Past results are not indicative of future success. [/end voice]
Fair, those two make up 36% of the posts (at the time of this post), but that shouldn't stop others from posting. I'm in the top ****ing 5 in posts ITT. This is a sign to me that the game needs a push.
Quote from DYH »
I agree with this exchange, but the initial reaction feels bad.
I will agree that my initial reaction was bad, but it didn't smell right that Manders left out my alignment. I read it initially as though Manders was trying to paint me as scum.
I'd prefer we run Jobie up to L-2, instead.
But because I think he's scum.
My claim will be more useful after someone (hopefully Deathjoey) claims.
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I'm saying you're responding to real points with superficially good sounding platitudes that have no substance.
I disagree.
Quote from ProphetKing »
It doesn't matter if that is within RVS. The entire argument is that it was overdramatic (an overreaction) and that the vote is justifiable.
You're not engaging my arguments in their actual context.
I, once again, disagree.
Quote from ProphetKing »
It doesn't matter who you are. You could be the reincarnation of Freud. My problem is you claim to have constructed a profile from a sample size of five or less posts. You don't even have a meta record or any sort of prior history.
Do you know this for certain?
Quote from ProphetKing »
To say a singular action has probable psychological causes or trends is one thing. To say you've compiled a profile off what is essentially the dust of atoms of a scrap of the information to make something that could be considered more seriously than a joke, there's zero credibility.
There is a reason psychologists spend more than five minutes in the office with you.
I'm inclined to believe at this point, then, that you underestimate what a few handfuls of sentences can tell you about a person, very strongly so.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Given that was originally a reply to a declaration of me not taking you seriously, I see no reason to assume it was not an attempt to persuade me.
If you were town and I could persuade you that you were scum, I would feel accomplished. However, as this is MAFIA, obviously if I'm attacking you, I'm not trying to win you over and start attacking yourself. That would be silly and to expect me to believe you thought that is asinine.
Quote from ProphetKing »
This isn't even close to an accurate portrayal of events or my comments.
First off, you admitted that it was an overreaction from Charm. There you go - my vote has a case for validity now. You can't move the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient.
Second, my argument is not "Iso's case is terrible because I used terrible reasoning." My argument is you're assigning my motivation to be aggressively stupid, taking an incoherent action akin to planning to fail. The reasoning you're assigning my actions is based on a caricature unlikely to exist.
No, I'm not "moving the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient". Just because it was an overreaction does NOT mean it is relevant to alignment; the fact that it occurred DURING THE RVS is ABSOLUTELY relevant, which you are failing to take into account.
In addition, I understand what your argument is supposed to be, but for me to believe your argument is what you state it is, that would require me to first believe you are good as scum - being that I'm pretty sure I've already caught you, I am absolutely disinclined to believe this at this juncture. You call my interpretation of your play a "caricature", but you have not given me any reason to believe it's not a portrait at this point.
Quote from ProphetKing »
If you're going to twist what I'm saying and not even reply to my chain of thought, you could at least pick a funny image.
You were making an appeal to me while at the same time using veiled ad hom, I feel it was appropriate. You are intentionally generating WIFOM in an attempt to discourage my assault, when in fact, I have more WIFOM in my pinky than you probably do in your history of Mafia. You're making a play that's so outlandishly bad that you're hoping I think you're incapable of such bad play as scum, when in fact it's readily apparent that you are not. Hence, all I saw was "SRSLY GUISE. GUISE SRSLY."
Quote from ProphetKing »
Given you've conceded the reasoning I've cited, I can't think of a good reason you would find my vote lacking.
I have addressed this. You have chosen to ignore it.
Quote from ProphetKing »
You're not even trying to be objective.
There is an obvious difference between voting someone for making a poor case which happens to be on you and voting someone because they voted for you - and you know it.
Your defense is "I'm not that bad as scum" when I have seen no indication that you are, in fact, not that bad as scum, considering what I believe I've found here. My case is not poor, your defense is.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I'm not asking for a pass against accountability for all my thoughts and actions. Ignoring me (or anyone) would be a terrible play. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to hold my lack of inherent "MTGSness" against me when meta squabbles surface.
In the future, I would appreciate it if you could actually leave the link to my post in the quote (at least the first segment you quote, anyway) so that I can follow the quote trail to make sense of things like this when I forget what's going on instead of having to click back several pages. Thanks.
At any rate, it's not so much a matter of MTGS meta as it is of "find a better reason for an initial vote so you don't seem like an opportunist, resulting in Iso jumping on you."
Quote from ProphetKing »
How am I supposed to make pithy comments when you act so cute?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's fine if you disagree. Anyone who looks at the back and forth between you and me will see the non-answers like these ones.
Quote from Iso »
Do you know this for certain?
Context says it's significantly more likely than not.
Regardless, unsupported cases or profiles mean nothing to me. If you've got credible dirt share it with the class or don't bring it at all.
Quote from Iso »
I'm inclined to believe at this point, then, that you underestimate what a few handfuls of sentences can tell you about a person, very strongly so.
I would counter with that you grossly overestimate the ability of a few sentences' ability to decipher an individual's psyche. There's more noise when you take a little bit of information and try to configure it into what kind of person must have been like to produce it. If you have a clearer picture of someone, a profile with strong supports the process of amateur psychoanalysis becomes less awful.
When your expectations are violated more frequently, I hazard that you will come closer to my position than the other way around.
And yes, a few sentences can tell you quite a bit. But a small amount of any sentences? No. From the early game posts we're discussing about Charm, I have very vague impressions of him. It borders on arrogance to pretend I'm a real life Sherlock Holmes who has unrealistic powers of magic perception. There are such high levels of uncertainty and margins for error in mafia games.
If there's a payload, some key argument I've missed go ahead and present it. Or perhaps you could outline how you came to your view of Charm Master and we can discuss if it has any credibility or coherent source backing it up beyond your appeal to authority.
Alternatively, you could outline whatever profile you've constructed of me and then I can use it as a credibility meter of your skills and for insight into your meta and thinking. That would be really interesting and potentially hilarious.
I don't disbelieve in the power of psychology. I believe mafia is hard and bull**** is easy.
Quote from Iso »
If you were town and I could persuade you that you were scum, I would feel accomplished.
You keep doing this. It's not a very effective tactic.
Comedic answers to complaints are wonderful, but not against strawmen.
Quote from Iso »
However, as this is MAFIA, obviously if I'm attacking you, I'm not trying to win you over and start attacking yourself. That would be silly and to expect me to believe you thought that is asinine.
We're discussing your credibility as a psychic medium armchair psychologist, not a line of text saying "I think PK is mafia."
Do you have the inverse mentality, that you're not trying to really consider the other person so much as bulldoze them? I get that sense with the non-answers, logically phoned in case and thinly-veiled attempts to provoke me by saying I'm a bad player or horrible at being scum.
In any case, I believe in not playing terribly and being objective as possible. If you don't give the benefit of the doubt to the other person, you open yourself up to looking very silly very often.
Quote from Iso »
No, I'm not "moving the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient". Just because it was an overreaction does NOT mean it is relevant to alignment; the fact that it occurred DURING THE RVS is ABSOLUTELY relevant, which you are failing to take into account.
I completely agree that it occurring during the RVS is relevant. Because it was RVS, it is a time of virtually no information. This makes smaller things and anomalies that usually wouldn't be relevant...relevant. It's all about the context.
Quote from Iso »
In addition, I understand what your argument is supposed to be, but for me to believe your argument is what you state it is, that would require me to first believe you are good as scum -
My argument requires you assume "not wildly awful" levels of competence, not even a "mildly good".
As I understand it, you accuse me of opting to vote Charm Master during what was then still RVS because it was an opportunity. As we've discussed this is not a play with upside, there is no real sinister reward for making that Charm Master vote - thus you accuse me of incompetence to justify what is really a stretch of an interpretation.
I think the fact we are having this conversation would go to show I know at least this much about how this whole "town"/"scum" rodeo.
Quote from Iso »
being that I'm pretty sure I've already caught you, I am absolutely disinclined to believe this at this juncture. You call my interpretation of your play a "caricature", but you have not given me any reason to believe it's not a portrait at this point.
You know how we were discussing before how your psychological profiles are flimsily sourced?
I will let you in on a little secret.
I am really, really good at being scum. Now that is a self-endorsement. However, if you doubt me, if you question my credibility - I'll actually go a step further than you did, I'll provide you with the links and data to back it up. If the offer for the supporting evidence isn't enough evidence for you, I'll actually drudge it up.
See, this is a good teachable moment. You believe you've caught me, and you're wrong. You're incorrect, you're off base, you're batting zero. (My task now is to determine if it's because you're employing poor methods as town or it's because you're sinisterly pushing a case on me as scum because you thought you smelled blood in the water early game.)
And why are you wrong? Because you've looked an interpretation of events that could be valid. It clicks, it feels right to you. There is no catch, no apparent disruptor. But you see, the problem is that its easy to find interpretations of events that could be true, could be valid.
The difference between you and me is that you're eager to make assumptions you can't cash. You're assuming I'm bad at being scum - and for what reason? Nothing. You have no reason to make that assumption. You even have some indications to the contrary, with a vague sense that I have some level of experience. But it's crucial for the case, crucial to your "catch" so you throw your lot in with that assumption.
This is basically allowing your arrogance to define me. My argument is invalid if you're good at being scum -> But I'm pretty sure I caught you -> So therefore I can justify my catch -> because I'm pretty sure I caught you. Silly.
Unsupported assumptions are worthless. Not that a unsupported psychological argument has much merit through credibility, as credibility can be bought by a randomly selected scum alignment.
Quote from Iso »
You were making an appeal to me while at the same time using veiled ad hom, I feel it was appropriate.
If "seriously?" prefixing an argument I find to be obvious is veiled ad hom, I don't want to be right.
Quote from Iso »
I have more WIFOM in my pinky than you probably do in your history of Mafia.
lol
Quote from Iso »
You are intentionally generating WIFOM in an attempt to discourage my assault,
I've never argued anything on the Charm vote beyond that it was justifiable. I've commented neither way that it reflects on me. It's an action I likely would have made regardless of alignment. I have discussed why the sinister motivations that assume an idiot savant kind of malice people have assigned to it are dumb and unlikely. As an action, it was either sincere or me making a play I would have thought valid as town.
Quote from Iso »
when in fact [y]ou're making a play that's so outlandishly bad that you're hoping I think you're incapable of such bad play as scum, when in fact it's readily apparent that you are not. Hence, all I saw was "SRSLY GUISE. GUISE SRSLY."
Couple of things.
First off, I've seen more bad, bad play from people of every alignment than you probably ever will. To me, "playing too terribly to be scum"...there are people who are really terrible at mafia. I've seen them! (No, not in a mirror Iso.) They happen to be terrible regardless of alignment. And in those cases I think, "Ah damn, they're terrible, reading them is going to be next to impossible."
Second, I pride myself on playing good and trying to be the best player in the room. I'm not going to come into a community and try to make a first impression of "I am so terrible I am not scum." No, my ego is going to dictate I engage the game with every effort full force.
Given all the other posts and actions in the thread from me, do you really think your psychological interpretation of me pans out here? Do I actively look like I'm trying to play terrible-under-the-radar?
Quote from Iso »
I have addressed this. You have chosen to ignore it.
If you're going to accuse me of ignoring something, you ought point it out.
Quote from Iso »
Your defense is "I'm not that bad as scum" when I have seen no indication that you are, in fact, not that bad as scum, considering what I believe I've found here. My case is not poor, your defense is.
Let me get this straight.
In your hypothetical series of events, you've put stupid thoughts into my head and had me act for stupid reasons, which you justify with an assumption that I'm terrible at being scum, which you back up because what you find here would mean I'm scum if I was bad at being scum and had stupid thoughts.
Your thinking is akin to the shape of your physical counterpart.
Quote from Iso »
In the future, I would appreciate it if you could actually leave the link to my post in the quote (at least the first segment you quote, anyway) so that I can follow the quote trail to make sense of things like this when I forget what's going on instead of having to click back several pages. Thanks.
I'll try to remember to that but no promises, I'm addicted to copy + paste.
Quote from Iso »
At any rate, it's not so much a matter of MTGS meta as it is of "find a better reason for an initial vote so you don't seem like an opportunist, resulting in Iso jumping on you."
Or alternatively, that I'm of the opinion that I don't need "better" reasons to vote than what I had given the amount of information available at the time.
More like I was pretty sure it was reaction trolling given you just saw someone else get accused of not explaining their vote, and thus it was apparent you were poking the bear. I would hazard a guess you did it to see how people would react to it.
Quote from MandersHex »
Why are you telling me this?
I find your case weak and uncompelling and want to see if you'll change your mind if I criticize it.
Quote from MandersHex »
Eh, barning happens. You gotta look at the whole picture, which I'm pretty sure I've already spelled out pretty well.
I'm not even seeing a frame here.
Quote from MandersHex »
Barely. Both have the person performing them not contributing an original opinion.
I'm not getting how you're a hypocrite if you agree with something spelled out in contrast to someone who makes a completely unclarified statement.
The exchange went "explain your vote" to "you're asking for analysis yet you didn't add any here." This does not seem to compute.
Quote from Jobie »
You're crusading against my vote for Deathjoey to claim. I can unvote and we can continue our silent circlejerk or we can push forward through our current lull and go somewhere.
It's a circlejerk, but it's for waiting and not silence. Deathjoey need to actually post and put up reads/opinions and I personally want Wuffles to show up and do something. Iso's all healed up now and we can resume or pleasant conversation.
It's fine if you disagree. Anyone who looks at the back and forth between you and me will see the non-answers like these ones.
At the stage we've reached with the back and forth pertaining to matters where I simply state that I disagree, I feel like arguing it further becomes a "yuh huh", "nuh uh" argument. So I've agreed to disagree.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Context says it's significantly more likely than not.
You're gonna have to explain that one to me, because I think the context weighs in my favor there.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Regardless, unsupported cases or profiles mean nothing to me. If you've got credible dirt share it with the class or don't bring it at all.
I wouldn't call it "dirt", seeing as it's not anything bad, per se, but I will happily share with the class after this post once I get the time and opportunity to do so.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I would counter with that you grossly overestimate the ability of a few sentences' ability to decipher an individual's psyche. There's more noise when you take a little bit of information and try to configure it into what kind of person must have been like to produce it. If you have a clearer picture of someone, a profile with strong supports the process of amateur psychoanalysis becomes less awful.
But see, if you think I'm overestimating what a few sentences can tell me, then you're underestimating me, as a person. If you can toot your Mafia horn, I can certainly toot my psychoanalysis horn. Ask Manders, she'll vouch for me.
Quote from ProphetKing »
When your expectations are violated more frequently, I hazard that you will come closer to my position than the other way around.
My expectations have yet to be violated, comrade.
Quote from ProphetKing »
And yes, a few sentences can tell you quite a bit. But a small amount of any sentences? No. From the early game posts we're discussing about Charm, I have very vague impressions of him. It borders on arrogance to pretend I'm a real life Sherlock Holmes who has unrealistic powers of magic perception. There are such high levels of uncertainty and margins for error in mafia games.
I have had unrealistic powers of magic perception for the better part of a decade or so, now. Given the language and tone choices that Charm opted to put forth, the relevant information pertaining to his psyche was not hard at all to come to the conclusion of having ascertained. I realize that there is room for error in Mafia; I, myself, have made a number of errors in my Mafia games. However, in the grand scheme of things, I daresay my results are self-evident.
Quote from ProphetKing »
If there's a payload, some key argument I've missed go ahead and present it. Or perhaps you could outline how you came to your view of Charm Master and we can discuss if it has any credibility or coherent source backing it up beyond your appeal to authority.
Sure. As I said, I'll get to it when I have the time and opportunity to do so.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Alternatively, you could outline whatever profile you've constructed of me and then I can use it as a credibility meter of your skills and for insight into your meta and thinking. That would be really interesting and potentially hilarious.
It certainly would be, but being that your modus operandi here is to discredit my ability to construct relevant aspects of psychological profiles based on minimal information, I'd not feel inclined to trust your feedback on the matters.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I don't disbelieve in the power of psychology. I believe mafia is hard and bull**** is easy.
Then cut with the crap and stop thinking arbitrary plays like your vote on Charm are going to be effective short of getting yourself run up.
Quote from ProphetKing »
You keep doing this. It's not a very effective tactic.
Comedic answers to complaints are wonderful, but not against strawmen.
My point is that I'm not trying to convince you that you're scum, at all. You already know you are, whether or not you're going to come forth with that information. You say "convince me", but in the unlikely event that you are town, it is fallacious to assume that I can convince you that you are anything short of town. In conjunction to this, if you are scum, I do not need to convince you that you are scum - I simply need to convince everyone else. By the way, what you're doing is cute, and I'm on to it.
Quote from ProphetKing »
We're discussing your credibility as a psychic medium armchair psychologist, not a line of text saying "I think PK is mafia."
Do you have the inverse mentality, that you're not trying to really consider the other person so much as bulldoze them? I get that sense with the non-answers, logically phoned in case and thinly-veiled attempts to provoke me by saying I'm a bad player or horrible at being scum.
In any case, I believe in not playing terribly and being objective as possible. If you don't give the benefit of the doubt to the other person, you open yourself up to looking very silly very often.
Okay. So let's assume for a second that I'm completely wrong about your alignment, but not about Charm's. Would you still have the same skepticism regarding my analysis of Charm? Why or why not? In addition, I have an appreciation for the "constant siege" tactic of Mafia, wherein I hammer and hammer and hammer away at a person that I am convinced is scum until they slip. Finally, it's Mafia. I never give anyone the benefit of the doubt unless I have reason to. I have reason to give Charm the benefit of the doubt. I do not have reason to give it to you, however. You say you believe in not playing terribly, but my point about this is that if you play terribly enough, people will believe that the high margin of error your play is generating is simply too convenient to make you of the mafia alignment, and as such, it is actually an effective play to play perpetually ineffectively as you are.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I completely agree that it occurring during the RVS is relevant. Because it was RVS, it is a time of virtually no information. This makes smaller things and anomalies that usually wouldn't be relevant...relevant. It's all about the context.
But the most important aspect of the context is the player, himself. You can't discount a player's psyche just because you cannot personally construct an accurate interpretation of it at a certain stage, and you certainly can't discount the possibility that other players CAN.
Quote from ProphetKing »
My argument requires you assume "not wildly awful" levels of competence, not even a "mildly good".
See above on why the incompetence of your play is actually rather competent.
Quote from ProphetKing »
As I understand it, you accuse me of opting to vote Charm Master during what was then still RVS because it was an opportunity. As we've discussed this is not a play with upside, there is no real sinister reward for making that Charm Master vote - thus you accuse me of incompetence to justify what is really a stretch of an interpretation.
I'm not accusing you of incompetence so much as I'm accusing you of willful incompetence - again, a play so bad that nobody would expect it to come from a scum mindset and one that you can laugh off when called on it - "Do you honestly believe I would make a play that bad as scum? :rofl:" You have admitted that it was poor play, but then defended your stance on your play, showing that you were quite aware of the fact that it was poor play, indeed. It would be clever if you hadn't admitted that you were knowing of this, because if that were the case, I might have been inclined to believe you. But you have admitted that you do not believe in playing poorly, and as such, surely you can see the effectiveness of intentional sub-optimal play, given your self-admission of having done so here. However, unless you can point me to a past example where you have knowingly played poorly as town in an attempt to garner opportunistic votes on to yourself (I am extending you this out because I have done it before, myself - you're welcome to read up on Day 1 of Flame Warriors Mafia to see how that played out for yourself) for wagon analysis, then I will accept this as your explanation and drop it for the time being.
Let me ask you something else, however - if I had not started attacking you, where would your vote be right now?
Quote from ProphetKing »
I think the fact we are having this conversation would go to show I know at least this much about how this whole "town"/"scum" rodeo.
Which is why I think my point is completely valid.
Quote from ProphetKing »
You know how we were discussing before how your psychological profiles are flimsily sourced?
I will let you in on a little secret.
I am really, really good at being scum. Now that is a self-endorsement. However, if you doubt me, if you question my credibility - I'll actually go a step further than you did, I'll provide you with the links and data to back it up. If the offer for the supporting evidence isn't enough evidence for you, I'll actually drudge it up.
Please do, because from what you've led me to believe, you come from a land of "follow the Cop", where minimal behavioral analysis is encouraged, which could very well lead you to delusions of grandeur as to your play. That being said, I'm from here. Here's my self-endorsement - I was nominated "Best Mafia Newcomer of 2011" and "Best Mafia Performance - Individual of 2011" in this lovely subforum, and I won the Newcomer award by a landslide (tied the Best Individual Mafia Performance with the player who was voted Best Overall Mafia Player of 2011; I think that's saying something, in itself). So please. Show me your shinies. Because I'd love to see.
Quote from ProphetKing »
See, this is a good teachable moment. You believe you've caught me, and you're wrong. You're incorrect, you're off base, you're batting zero. (My task now is to determine if it's because you're employing poor methods as town or it's because you're sinisterly pushing a case on me as scum because you thought you smelled blood in the water early game.)
Wouldn't your vote be elsewhere if you believed it to be the first? This statement is asinine and, if you were as open-minded when it comes to Mafia as you claim you are and you wish for me to believe, then your vote would be doing more productive things, like not sitting uselessly on me when it's pretty painfully obvious that no one is following your completely bunk case on me. You lost sooo many credibility points with your vote on Charm and your way of going about that, and pinkfloyd's argument against me is "self-meta is scummy because self-meta is scummy". My wagon isn't going anywhere. Be useful if you truly believe in optimal Mafia play.
Quote from ProphetKing »
And why are you wrong? Because you've looked an interpretation of events that could be valid. It clicks, it feels right to you. There is no catch, no apparent disruptor. But you see, the problem is that its easy to find interpretations of events that could be true, could be valid.
The difference between you and me is that you're eager to make assumptions you can't cash. You're assuming I'm bad at being scum - and for what reason? Nothing. You have no reason to make that assumption. You even have some indications to the contrary, with a vague sense that I have some level of experience. But it's crucial for the case, crucial to your "catch" so you throw your lot in with that assumption.
Incorrect; I have addressed this above.
Quote from ProphetKing »
This is basically allowing your arrogance to define me. My argument is invalid if you're good at being scum -> But I'm pretty sure I caught you -> So therefore I can justify my catch -> because I'm pretty sure I caught you. Silly.
You're accusing me of circular logic? Firstly, my argument is most certainly not invalidated by whether or not you are good as scum - in fact, it is largely irrelevant as to whether or not you are, as my argument can go both ways - either you're good enough to realize the effectiveness of bad play OR you're so bad that you didn't realize it was bad play until you were called on it. I'm inclined to believe the first, as you have admitted that your play was, in fact, lacking.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Unsupported assumptions are worthless. Not that a[n] unsupported psychological argument has much merit through credibility, as credibility can be bought by a randomly selected scum alignment.
I'm not sure I understand your second sentence. Credibility is obtainable simply by being scum?
Quote from ProphetKing »
If "seriously?" prefixing an argument I find to be obvious is veiled ad hom, I don't want to be right.
Yes because that's totally the part I was talking about.
Quote from ProphetKing »
lol
It's true.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I've never argued anything on the Charm vote beyond that it was justifiable. I've commented neither way that it reflects on me. It's an action I likely would have made regardless of alignment. I have discussed why the sinister motivations that assume an idiot savant kind of malice people have assigned to it are dumb and unlikely. As an action, it was either sincere or me making a play I would have thought valid as town.
I cannot express how much I dislike the way you phrased the bolded. And it's slips like that which make "bulldozing", as you put it, so effective.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Couple of things.
First off, I've seen more bad, bad play from people of every alignment than you probably ever will. To me, "playing too terribly to be scum"...there are people who are really terrible at mafia. I've seen them! (No, not in a mirror Iso.) They happen to be terrible regardless of alignment. And in those cases I think, "Ah damn, they're terrible, reading them is going to be next to impossible."
@ Bold:
@ The rest: Your ways of argumentation are swaying me to believe that you may in fact not be a terrible player, which still begs the question of your initially terrible play. This is only lending credence to my argument.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Second, I pride myself on playing good well and trying to be the best player in the room. I'm not going to come into a community and try to make a first impression of "I am so terrible I am not scum." No, my ego is going to dictate I engage the game with every effort full force.
Given all the other posts and actions in the thread from me, do you really think your psychological interpretation of me pans out here? Do I actively look like I'm trying to play terrible-under-the-radar?
I think your ego is what is preventing me from believing you are town - If you had simply said, "Yeah, you know what, that was a bad play, I'm going to count my losses and move on," I may have been inclined to let it slide, but you are still arguing that your vote was justifiable when it, in fact, was not.
Quote from ProphetKing »
If you're going to accuse me of ignoring something, you ought point it out.
I have already repeated myself many times on the matter; you should feel special, as I absolutely loathe repeating myself in Mafia. Read over the context and my previous responses and try to tell me with a straight face that you cannot honestly ascertain what I was referring to with this.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Let me get this straight.
In your hypothetical series of events, you've put stupid thoughts into my head and had me act for stupid reasons, which you justify with an assumption that I'm terrible at being scum, which you back up because what you find here would mean I'm scum if I was bad at being scum and had stupid thoughts.
My new theory is that you acted stupidly on purpose. What do you think of it? (That's moderately rhetorical, by the way.)
Quote from ProphetKing »
Your thinking is akin to the shape of your physical counterpart.
You're gonna have to be a little more direct about your ad hom here if you want me to pick up what you're putting down.
Quote from ProphetKing »
I'll try to remember to that but no promises, I'm addicted to copy + paste.
Fair enough, just don't expect optimal answers from me if I can't be arsed to look however many pages or posts back and figure out what the hell we're talking about.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Or alternatively, that I'm of the opinion that I don't need "better" reasons to vote than what I had given the amount of information available at the time.
Why did you have such little information at the time, given that you believe yourself to be a "really, really good" player? How was I able to garner more information on the situation at hand and player in question than you were able to, given that we have access to the same resources if you are such a good player as you are professing yourself to be?
Quote from ProphetKing »
You foiled my cunning plan.
Quote from ProphetKing »
What do you think I'm doing?
Your mom.
(Alternatively: Failing at coming at me, bro.)
Hey, everyone else, I know that you're probably not going to want to read all of this, but please do. It's rather relevant to any case I may be making on ProphetKing in the future.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Joey: seeing as you're at L-2, a claim would be nice.
The Iso/PK assault reminds me of some of the more classic debates between Cyan and RafK. Though more often than not, they both ended up being town. Will need to read a bit deeper to make sure of that.
Wuff hasn't been on in a while...
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False dilemma. Weekend + sick Iso + missing Manders, etc. has made for lower posting rate. [commerical fine-print voice] Past results are not indicative of future success. [/end voice]
Sorry again that I forgot to tell you guys. Totally slipped my mind. I had a blast, though.
I'd prefer we run Jobie up to L-2, instead.
But because I think he's scum.
I'd prefer AI, but I could go for Jobie. That overly defensive action just rubbed me the wrong way, big time.
I'm saying you're responding to real points with superficially good sounding platitudes that have no substance.
It doesn't matter if that is within RVS. The entire argument is that it was overdramatic (an overreaction) and that the vote is justifiable.
Why do you think your vote was justifiable? (Yes, I'm sure you've said this before, but sorry. I don't remember what you said and don't have the time nor desire to read through this back and forth between you two to find it.)
Given that was originally a reply to a declaration of me not taking you seriously, I see no reason to assume it was not an attempt to persuade me.
Are you serious with this? You actually thought Iso was trying to convince you you were scum?
First off, you admitted that it was an overreaction from Charm. There you go - my vote has a case for validity now. You can't move the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient.
Oh, this is why? Because he overreacted?
A little history for you. Charm's last game on site was Hecatea. It was rife with n00bs who liked to flood post the game. They got him lynched D1 on a very lame case, and Charm was VERY frustrated with the whole situation.
His little rant was a bit premature, but not an overreaction. I wasn't surprised in the least to see it.
I'm not asking for a pass against accountability for all my thoughts and actions. Ignoring me (or anyone) would be a terrible play. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to hold my lack of inherent "MTGSness" against me when meta squabbles surface.
Wait, did I miss something? How is he holding your "lack of inherent 'MTGSness'" against you?
Fair, those two make up 36% of the posts (at the time of this post), but that shouldn't stop others from posting. I'm in the top ****ing 5 in posts ITT. This is a sign to me that the game needs a push.
It was the weekend. Other people are not posting, either. So, why did you decide that the push it needed was an early claim from Deathjoey?
I will agree that my initial reaction was bad, but it didn't smell right that Manders left out my alignment. I read it initially as though Manders was trying to paint me as scum.
Which is overly paranoid. What do you think about it now that you've thought again?
At any rate, it's not so much a matter of MTGS meta as it is of "find a better reason for an initial vote so you don't seem like an opportunist, resulting in Iso jumping on you."
Wait, that's what he meant by having a lack of inherent MTGSness?
That he made an opportunistic vote without realizing it would be interpreted as such?
More like I was pretty sure it was reaction trolling given you just saw someone else get accused of not explaining their vote, and thus it was apparent you were poking the bear. I would hazard a guess you did it to see how people would react to it.
Actually, I didn't even register that had happened. I planned to vote for my first scumspect in the nude so that I could gauge the reactions of the other players. That scumspect happened to be AI.
I find your case weak and uncompelling and want to see if you'll change your mind if I criticize it.
Ain't happening. My case is solid.
I'm not getting how you're a hypocrite if you agree with something spelled out in contrast to someone who makes a completely unclarified statement.
Because he's not providing any analysis!!
Is it the exact same situation? No. But it's similar enough in that aspect that it adds fuel to the fire that is in AI's pants.
The exchange went "explain your vote" to "you're asking for analysis yet you didn't add any here." This does not seem to compute.
Get used to things from me not computing. Iono why, but I don't make sense aometimes.
3 or so sentences on each would cover it, no need to be excessive here.
I found RL's most recent post to be of high quality. Would like to see more from him, but nothing from him concerns me thus far.
As for you, I'm undecided. Normally, someone playing with this much bluster and bravado would read townie to me - people inherently don't like to be wrong - and coming out with this much confidence would scream townie. But since you're so full of yourself all the time, it's irrelevant.
I already covered this in my first post in the thread. Although it would be nice to hear from him again (I see he's in the thread).
PPE: I see he's posted. I think we agree on the Iso/PK exchange, only I'm less nice about it.
Hey, everyone else, I know that you're probably not going to want to read all of this, but please do. It's rather relevant to any case I may be making on ProphetKing in the future.
That house will sink if either of you are planning on using it as a foundation. Those back-and-forths were a complete waste of time and basically an opportunity for the two of you to go on about how good you are at mafia. There's very little in the exchange that actually interests me on a game level.
As for deathjoey, not amused by the "I'm baaaack" post while being at L-2, and then... not being back. Also, is it time for a prod on Wuffles?
Wait, that's what he meant by having a lack of inherent MTGSness?
That he made an opportunistic vote without realizing it would be interpreted as such?
No, not exactly. His initial vote on Charm was a self-admitted weak vote, and I viewed it as not only weak, but opportunistic. His explanation for it was that at that stage in the game, there was little to go off of, and he'd rather place a vote with a weak reason than no vote(?) at that point. Which brings up the question of why he didn't just wait to place his vote on someone he felt was actually likely to be scum. Got an explanation, PK?
Quote from MandersHex »
Because he's not providing any analysis!!
I would personally like AI to provide analysis. But a question for you, Manders. A primary point of your argument against AI is meta. Can you see parallels between his play here and in Hetalia? I know Hetalia was a bigass game, but please take a look and tell me, without confirmation bias, if you can. I'll happily do the same when I have a spare moment to do such.
Quote from MandersHex »
Goddamn, I hope Iso's town, cause that's how I'm reading him. But he scares me.
Do I? Why's that?
Quote from MandersHex »
@ Ced: Why did you not mention to dj that he needs to claim?
Why do you feel the need to ask ced this, of all of the people that were around when Joey showed up?
As for you, I'm undecided. Normally, someone playing with this much bluster and bravado would read townie to me - people inherently don't like to be wrong - and coming out with this much confidence would scream townie. But since you're so full of yourself all the time, it's irrelevant.
My moderately consistent self-confidence makes it difficult for you to get a read on me?
Quote from DYH »
That house will sink if either of you are planning on using it as a foundation. Those back-and-forths were a complete waste of time and basically an opportunity for the two of you to go on about how good you are at mafia. There's very little in the exchange that actually interests me on a game level.
No worries, once our exchanges are over, I can break it all down nicely and concisely to suit the purpose it's intended for.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would personally like AI to provide analysis. But a question for you, Manders. A primary point of your argument against AI is meta. Can you see parallels between his play here and in Hetalia? I know Hetalia was a bigass game, but please take a look and tell me, without confirmation bias, if you can. I'll happily do the same when I have a spare moment to do such.
Not really, no. He was very vocal and threw himself into a leadership position quite early in th...oh, wait, you said Hetalia.
I don't remember that game. I'll look into it when you get a chance.
Do I? Why's that?
Because I read you as town in Amnesia.
Why do you feel the need to ask ced this, of all of the people that were around when Joey showed up?
Because he was the only one who didn't mention dj's need to claim. That strikes me as quite off for Cedwick.
My moderately consistent self-confidence makes it difficult for you to get a read on me?
Don't let the laugh fool you, DYH. He's flattered.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
PinkFloyd has experienced some sort of computer asplosion or something. I'll be attemtping to get to the bottom of it and potentially rectify the issue as it relates to this game. Stand by folks.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Let me know when those antibiotics kick in.
They started working yesterday, comrade.
Oh boy, are we lynching Deathjoey? I'm totally okay with this.
Unvote, Vote Deathjoey
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Hopefully, should be back by monday, If I'm not replaced.
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This game has stalled a little; a claim should help push us forward a bit.
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
In all seriousness, there's really not much to do until Joey stops lurking and claims. He's already at L-2, so more votes won't help. Not that I'm expecting much, he's tried laying low and lurked way too much for my personal liking.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, this wasn't rhetorical?
Well I would certainly like to.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Do you not see how these things could be helpful in analysis?
Yeah, Wuffles is sucking up quite a bit, and hasn't posted anything worthwhile. Not impressed, either.
While I don't think the DeathJoey wagon is terrible - it does carry the typical "well, let's roll a newbie over" momentum, as seen by my 'already wary' of Jobie stance not changing with this post.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
How do you propose we push the game forward then? Vote a lurking noob for a claim seems like a valid place to go to.
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
I suppose it could be helpful, but digging too deep into what was obviously a joke doesn't seem useful when I have plenty of other posts you could be analyzing. Just saying.
We should not be pushing for claims just to see a claim. We should be pushing for claims when we're ready to lynch and don't want to lynch a confirmable power role. Your mentality is extremely anti-town.
These, afaik, mark the end of RVS. I will have more to say about this when I am home with my notes.
Mostly, though, my point is that DJ's post was after the end of RVS.
This is such a "trying to look townie" post. The irony (which I believe ced pointed out) is not lost on me, either.
Iso is looking town here while trying to justify his behavior. At least I learned something about Iso's alignment.
I can dig it.
That is, in fact, the rub. You are making a lot of sense this game so far. Town++
Given that he had an explanation, your vote is the very thing you've vilified.
We've got enough people piling on DJ at this point. This post doesn't do much for me.
Now that is a more reasonable reaction - the vote does seem opportunistic, but it is not without reason.
Dig what? A hole for yourself? I think you're town but you're really not making yourself likeable this game. I know this is part of your "stay neutralish to live until end game and be analysis man" plan, but it doesn't seem to be going well this game, so maybe you should just try hard for once.
This vote on Iso is basically a naked vote couched in quotes. I'm not very pleased with this.
Again with the making yourself likeable so that you don't get lynched.
This is the exact thing you said in Osteria and it is still pointless. This is one of the things you really should not bother saying.
By the same token, however, not caring about Iso's meta is irresponsible. You're willfully ignoring information - not a townie action.
Well, you've definitely done things you'd like to take back at this point, I'm sure. That awful naked vote after RVS was over is probably something you'd like to have back, yeah.
You're trying to bull past questions too. How is this different from what you're accusing Iso of?
Is this an X-rated message board? I ask because your vote's attire leaves nothing to the imagination.
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It's like when you ask your crushes to go with you to the prom but they've already got dates. Deathjoey is the going-just-as-friends girl of Peso del Grande.
Yo, my name is PK and this game has all of twelve players and no flavor.
Claims can still catch scum, with or without flavor.
I never thought I'd see the day I would have to crusade for role-based analysis on MTGS.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Your holy war is against straw. No one has suggested that if Deathjoey claims we ought not analyze it.
At the moment, I can't think of anything. My mind is like a blank slate. I'm going to have to re-read the whole game, cause I KNOW I had something....
I'm sure I could find more examples from better games, but I'd rather just keep my eyes on you for more proof. I've got too much crap to do to go looking for meta evidence.
Wtf does that have to do with anything? What are you suggesting?
The only post I've submitted that could be construed as not contributing to the game was the one where I voted you and provided no reasons. Since then, I've definitely been playing the game. So, for you to say that it read disingenuous is actually what is disingenuous.
Your attempt to illicit an emotional reaction is noted. But, even if you did decide to change your vote to me, that's supposed to be heat? One vote from someone I'm pretty sure is scum?
Hokay.
Are you saying this is why you thought I did it?
Why are you telling me this?
Eh, barning happens. You gotta look at the whole picture, which I'm pretty sure I've already spelled out pretty well.
Barely. Both have the person performing them not contributing an original opinion.
More so when he's scum.
You should change your custom title to Manders' Shadow
Do not like.
You have the most experience with him, I think. What do you think of his "Needz comprehension" excuse?
This reads completely forced. Did it hurt spewing out that bit of theory?
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A word of advice: Cedwick always makes sense. He is, by far, one of the hardest players to read on this site. I wouldn't give him too many town points too soon.
It was naked for a reason, but I've already shown I had reasons when I made it.
I remember you doing this in Flame Warriors, I think.
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Correct. I was reaffirmed when there were no posts for almost 24 hours.
You're crusading against my vote for Deathjoey to claim. I can unvote and we can continue our silent circlejerk or we can push forward through our current lull and go somewhere.
EWP: @Manders: What was my alignment there again? (Hint: It was town).
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I know that. Did I say that gave me bad feelings?
Guilty conscience, much? o.O
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Says the player who went out of her way to dig up flawed meta evidence.
You are arguing semantics, which is a waste of time and a terrible way to scum-hunt. Your insistence on tunneling me and inability to think outside the box are not helpful in the slightest.
I don't think you've been doing much of anything other than get on my case for ridiculous things.
You seem pretty heated to me.
No, but if all of your posts are going to be this bad, this game is going to give me a headache.
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
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The town meta I provided is not the same as what you're doing here. So not completely flawed.
In fact, you completely ignored that and went straight for the easy, "Oh, I wasn't scum at that point" argument.
I'm arguing semantics? There's no possible way that me saying, "Are you going to play the game?" can be construed as "getting on his case". Period. Yet you went there.
Haven't had time or the inclination to do much of anything else. Doesn't mean I'm not watching other players.
Yeah, well, you know how much I dislike that smilie, yet use it anyway.
In fact, you know you are the reason I dislike that smilie so much.
Yet you used it anyway. I don't need you to teach me anything.
lol ok QQ some more.
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It's quite easy for them to find out if they wanted to, but ok.
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wat?
Not seeing how that isn't still RVS. Yes, it was a total overreaction, but nobody was voting seriously at that point in time.
And why do you think that, PK? Do you know who I am?
Considering I'm pushing against you, I wouldn't expect it to. I'm not trying to win YOU over.
"Your case is terrible because my reasoning was terrible."
Seems legit.
Which I still find lacking.
So you are voting for me because I am advocating your lynch. That is blatant OMGUS and you know it.
You're doing it just fine for me.
Uhh, when there are other things that are stronger tells that you can be voting for, yeah, I think you do.
No passes from me. The only two people I tend to ignore until endgames are kpaca and Seppel simply because they're the players I've been the most wrong about in the past.
Seemed like an appropriate phrase to begin that segment with.
Perhaps someday.
That we shall.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's far more convoluted than I'd prefer to get into here, but suffice it to say the fact you didn't know off the top of your head when you'd last done it was a minor point in your favor in my mind.
This is exactly what I was getting it re: Jobie.
Not really what I expected from you given our historical interactions.
Nice analogy. And I keep wanting to call this game Pico de Gallo. That's exactly my problem with the wagon, though, as I alluded to earlier.
I don't think this game is A) very long or B) very complicated at this point. Seems pretty weak.
False dilemma. Weekend + sick Iso + missing Manders, etc. has made for lower posting rate. [commerical fine-print voice] Past results are not indicative of future success. [/end voice]
And that seems to be a rather defensive response to someone who did not indicate she found you scummy for your behavior. Someone who played in that game with you and obviously knew your alignment.
And also covered exactly what I was just getting at.
I agree with this exchange, but the initial reaction feels bad.
I'd prefer we run Jobie up to L-2, instead.
But because I think he's scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Hey DYH, what do you think of Iso?
Hey DYH, what do you think of ced?
3 or so sentences on each would cover it, no need to be excessive here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It doesn't matter if that is within RVS. The entire argument is that it was overdramatic (an overreaction) and that the vote is justifiable.
You're not engaging my arguments in their actual context.
Personal experience.
It doesn't matter who you are. You could be the reincarnation of Freud. My problem is you claim to have constructed a profile from a sample size of five or less posts. You don't even have a meta record or any sort of prior history.
To say a singular action has probable psychological causes or trends is one thing. To say you've compiled a profile off what is essentially the dust of atoms of a scrap of the information to make something that could be considered more seriously than a joke, there's zero credibility.
There is a reason psychologists spend more than five minutes in the office with you.
Given that was originally a reply to a declaration of me not taking you seriously, I see no reason to assume it was not an attempt to persuade me.
This isn't even close to an accurate portrayal of events or my comments.
First off, you admitted that it was an overreaction from Charm. There you go - my vote has a case for validity now. You can't move the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient.
Second, my argument is not "Iso's case is terrible because I used terrible reasoning." My argument is you're assigning my motivation to be aggressively stupid, taking an incoherent action akin to planning to fail. The reasoning you're assigning my actions is based on a caricature unlikely to exist.
If you're going to twist what I'm saying and not even reply to my chain of thought, you could at least pick a funny image.
Given you've conceded the reasoning I've cited, I can't think of a good reason you would find my vote lacking.
You're not even trying to be objective.
There is an obvious difference between voting someone for making a poor case which happens to be on you and voting someone because they voted for you - and you know it.
I'm not asking for a pass against accountability for all my thoughts and actions. Ignoring me (or anyone) would be a terrible play. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to hold my lack of inherent "MTGSness" against me when meta squabbles surface.
You push man, don't be surprised when you get pushed back.
How am I supposed to make pithy comments when you act so cute?
Pistols at dawn, bro.
Fair, those two make up 36% of the posts (at the time of this post), but that shouldn't stop others from posting. I'm in the top ****ing 5 in posts ITT. This is a sign to me that the game needs a push.
I will agree that my initial reaction was bad, but it didn't smell right that Manders left out my alignment. I read it initially as though Manders was trying to paint me as scum.
My claim will be more useful after someone (hopefully Deathjoey) claims.
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Stop. Talking. About. Your. Role. Seriously.
I disagree.
I, once again, disagree.
Do you know this for certain?
I'm inclined to believe at this point, then, that you underestimate what a few handfuls of sentences can tell you about a person, very strongly so.
If you were town and I could persuade you that you were scum, I would feel accomplished. However, as this is MAFIA, obviously if I'm attacking you, I'm not trying to win you over and start attacking yourself. That would be silly and to expect me to believe you thought that is asinine.
No, I'm not "moving the goal posts back and forth when it's convenient". Just because it was an overreaction does NOT mean it is relevant to alignment; the fact that it occurred DURING THE RVS is ABSOLUTELY relevant, which you are failing to take into account.
In addition, I understand what your argument is supposed to be, but for me to believe your argument is what you state it is, that would require me to first believe you are good as scum - being that I'm pretty sure I've already caught you, I am absolutely disinclined to believe this at this juncture. You call my interpretation of your play a "caricature", but you have not given me any reason to believe it's not a portrait at this point.
You were making an appeal to me while at the same time using veiled ad hom, I feel it was appropriate. You are intentionally generating WIFOM in an attempt to discourage my assault, when in fact, I have more WIFOM in my pinky than you probably do in your history of Mafia. You're making a play that's so outlandishly bad that you're hoping I think you're incapable of such bad play as scum, when in fact it's readily apparent that you are not. Hence, all I saw was "SRSLY GUISE. GUISE SRSLY."
I have addressed this. You have chosen to ignore it.
Your defense is "I'm not that bad as scum" when I have seen no indication that you are, in fact, not that bad as scum, considering what I believe I've found here. My case is not poor, your defense is.
In the future, I would appreciate it if you could actually leave the link to my post in the quote (at least the first segment you quote, anyway) so that I can follow the quote trail to make sense of things like this when I forget what's going on instead of having to click back several pages. Thanks.
At any rate, it's not so much a matter of MTGS meta as it is of "find a better reason for an initial vote so you don't seem like an opportunist, resulting in Iso jumping on you."
Seems you managed, anyway.
Come at me, bro.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Context says it's significantly more likely than not.
Regardless, unsupported cases or profiles mean nothing to me. If you've got credible dirt share it with the class or don't bring it at all.
I would counter with that you grossly overestimate the ability of a few sentences' ability to decipher an individual's psyche. There's more noise when you take a little bit of information and try to configure it into what kind of person must have been like to produce it. If you have a clearer picture of someone, a profile with strong supports the process of amateur psychoanalysis becomes less awful.
When your expectations are violated more frequently, I hazard that you will come closer to my position than the other way around.
And yes, a few sentences can tell you quite a bit. But a small amount of any sentences? No. From the early game posts we're discussing about Charm, I have very vague impressions of him. It borders on arrogance to pretend I'm a real life Sherlock Holmes who has unrealistic powers of magic perception. There are such high levels of uncertainty and margins for error in mafia games.
If there's a payload, some key argument I've missed go ahead and present it. Or perhaps you could outline how you came to your view of Charm Master and we can discuss if it has any credibility or coherent source backing it up beyond your appeal to authority.
Alternatively, you could outline whatever profile you've constructed of me and then I can use it as a credibility meter of your skills and for insight into your meta and thinking. That would be really interesting and potentially hilarious.
I don't disbelieve in the power of psychology. I believe mafia is hard and bull**** is easy.
You keep doing this. It's not a very effective tactic.
Comedic answers to complaints are wonderful, but not against strawmen.
We're discussing your credibility as a
psychic mediumarmchair psychologist, not a line of text saying "I think PK is mafia."Do you have the inverse mentality, that you're not trying to really consider the other person so much as bulldoze them? I get that sense with the non-answers, logically phoned in case and thinly-veiled attempts to provoke me by saying I'm a bad player or horrible at being scum.
In any case, I believe in not playing terribly and being objective as possible. If you don't give the benefit of the doubt to the other person, you open yourself up to looking very silly very often.
I completely agree that it occurring during the RVS is relevant. Because it was RVS, it is a time of virtually no information. This makes smaller things and anomalies that usually wouldn't be relevant...relevant. It's all about the context.
My argument requires you assume "not wildly awful" levels of competence, not even a "mildly good".
As I understand it, you accuse me of opting to vote Charm Master during what was then still RVS because it was an opportunity. As we've discussed this is not a play with upside, there is no real sinister reward for making that Charm Master vote - thus you accuse me of incompetence to justify what is really a stretch of an interpretation.
I think the fact we are having this conversation would go to show I know at least this much about how this whole "town"/"scum" rodeo.
You know how we were discussing before how your psychological profiles are flimsily sourced?
I will let you in on a little secret.
I am really, really good at being scum. Now that is a self-endorsement. However, if you doubt me, if you question my credibility - I'll actually go a step further than you did, I'll provide you with the links and data to back it up. If the offer for the supporting evidence isn't enough evidence for you, I'll actually drudge it up.
See, this is a good teachable moment. You believe you've caught me, and you're wrong. You're incorrect, you're off base, you're batting zero. (My task now is to determine if it's because you're employing poor methods as town or it's because you're sinisterly pushing a case on me as scum because you thought you smelled blood in the water early game.)
And why are you wrong? Because you've looked an interpretation of events that could be valid. It clicks, it feels right to you. There is no catch, no apparent disruptor. But you see, the problem is that its easy to find interpretations of events that could be true, could be valid.
The difference between you and me is that you're eager to make assumptions you can't cash. You're assuming I'm bad at being scum - and for what reason? Nothing. You have no reason to make that assumption. You even have some indications to the contrary, with a vague sense that I have some level of experience. But it's crucial for the case, crucial to your "catch" so you throw your lot in with that assumption.
This is basically allowing your arrogance to define me. My argument is invalid if you're good at being scum -> But I'm pretty sure I caught you -> So therefore I can justify my catch -> because I'm pretty sure I caught you. Silly.
Unsupported assumptions are worthless. Not that a unsupported psychological argument has much merit through credibility, as credibility can be bought by a randomly selected scum alignment.
If "seriously?" prefixing an argument I find to be obvious is veiled ad hom, I don't want to be right.
lol
I've never argued anything on the Charm vote beyond that it was justifiable. I've commented neither way that it reflects on me. It's an action I likely would have made regardless of alignment. I have discussed why the sinister motivations that assume an idiot savant kind of malice people have assigned to it are dumb and unlikely. As an action, it was either sincere or me making a play I would have thought valid as town.
Couple of things.
First off, I've seen more bad, bad play from people of every alignment than you probably ever will. To me, "playing too terribly to be scum"...there are people who are really terrible at mafia. I've seen them! (No, not in a mirror Iso.) They happen to be terrible regardless of alignment. And in those cases I think, "Ah damn, they're terrible, reading them is going to be next to impossible."
Second, I pride myself on playing good and trying to be the best player in the room. I'm not going to come into a community and try to make a first impression of "I am so terrible I am not scum." No, my ego is going to dictate I engage the game with every effort full force.
Given all the other posts and actions in the thread from me, do you really think your psychological interpretation of me pans out here? Do I actively look like I'm trying to play terrible-under-the-radar?
If you're going to accuse me of ignoring something, you ought point it out.
Let me get this straight.
In your hypothetical series of events, you've put stupid thoughts into my head and had me act for stupid reasons, which you justify with an assumption that I'm terrible at being scum, which you back up because what you find here would mean I'm scum if I was bad at being scum and had stupid thoughts.
Your thinking is akin to the shape of your physical counterpart.
I'll try to remember to that but no promises, I'm addicted to copy + paste.
Or alternatively, that I'm of the opinion that I don't need "better" reasons to vote than what I had given the amount of information available at the time.
You foiled my cunning plan.
What do you think I'm doing?
I find your case weak and uncompelling and want to see if you'll change your mind if I criticize it.
I'm not even seeing a frame here.
I'm not getting how you're a hypocrite if you agree with something spelled out in contrast to someone who makes a completely unclarified statement.
The exchange went "explain your vote" to "you're asking for analysis yet you didn't add any here." This does not seem to compute.
It's a circlejerk, but it's for waiting and not silence. Deathjoey need to actually post and put up reads/opinions and I personally want Wuffles to show up and do something. Iso's all healed up now and we can resume or pleasant conversation.
At the stage we've reached with the back and forth pertaining to matters where I simply state that I disagree, I feel like arguing it further becomes a "yuh huh", "nuh uh" argument. So I've agreed to disagree.
You're gonna have to explain that one to me, because I think the context weighs in my favor there.
I wouldn't call it "dirt", seeing as it's not anything bad, per se, but I will happily share with the class after this post once I get the time and opportunity to do so.
But see, if you think I'm overestimating what a few sentences can tell me, then you're underestimating me, as a person. If you can toot your Mafia horn, I can certainly toot my psychoanalysis horn. Ask Manders, she'll vouch for me.
My expectations have yet to be violated, comrade.
I have had unrealistic powers of magic perception for the better part of a decade or so, now. Given the language and tone choices that Charm opted to put forth, the relevant information pertaining to his psyche was not hard at all to come to the conclusion of having ascertained. I realize that there is room for error in Mafia; I, myself, have made a number of errors in my Mafia games. However, in the grand scheme of things, I daresay my results are self-evident.
Sure. As I said, I'll get to it when I have the time and opportunity to do so.
It certainly would be, but being that your modus operandi here is to discredit my ability to construct relevant aspects of psychological profiles based on minimal information, I'd not feel inclined to trust your feedback on the matters.
Then cut with the crap and stop thinking arbitrary plays like your vote on Charm are going to be effective short of getting yourself run up.
My point is that I'm not trying to convince you that you're scum, at all. You already know you are, whether or not you're going to come forth with that information. You say "convince me", but in the unlikely event that you are town, it is fallacious to assume that I can convince you that you are anything short of town. In conjunction to this, if you are scum, I do not need to convince you that you are scum - I simply need to convince everyone else. By the way, what you're doing is cute, and I'm on to it.
Okay. So let's assume for a second that I'm completely wrong about your alignment, but not about Charm's. Would you still have the same skepticism regarding my analysis of Charm? Why or why not? In addition, I have an appreciation for the "constant siege" tactic of Mafia, wherein I hammer and hammer and hammer away at a person that I am convinced is scum until they slip. Finally, it's Mafia. I never give anyone the benefit of the doubt unless I have reason to. I have reason to give Charm the benefit of the doubt. I do not have reason to give it to you, however. You say you believe in not playing terribly, but my point about this is that if you play terribly enough, people will believe that the high margin of error your play is generating is simply too convenient to make you of the mafia alignment, and as such, it is actually an effective play to play perpetually ineffectively as you are.
But the most important aspect of the context is the player, himself. You can't discount a player's psyche just because you cannot personally construct an accurate interpretation of it at a certain stage, and you certainly can't discount the possibility that other players CAN.
See above on why the incompetence of your play is actually rather competent.
I'm not accusing you of incompetence so much as I'm accusing you of willful incompetence - again, a play so bad that nobody would expect it to come from a scum mindset and one that you can laugh off when called on it - "Do you honestly believe I would make a play that bad as scum? :rofl:" You have admitted that it was poor play, but then defended your stance on your play, showing that you were quite aware of the fact that it was poor play, indeed. It would be clever if you hadn't admitted that you were knowing of this, because if that were the case, I might have been inclined to believe you. But you have admitted that you do not believe in playing poorly, and as such, surely you can see the effectiveness of intentional sub-optimal play, given your self-admission of having done so here. However, unless you can point me to a past example where you have knowingly played poorly as town in an attempt to garner opportunistic votes on to yourself (I am extending you this out because I have done it before, myself - you're welcome to read up on Day 1 of Flame Warriors Mafia to see how that played out for yourself) for wagon analysis, then I will accept this as your explanation and drop it for the time being.
Let me ask you something else, however - if I had not started attacking you, where would your vote be right now?
Which is why I think my point is completely valid.
Please do, because from what you've led me to believe, you come from a land of "follow the Cop", where minimal behavioral analysis is encouraged, which could very well lead you to delusions of grandeur as to your play. That being said, I'm from here. Here's my self-endorsement - I was nominated "Best Mafia Newcomer of 2011" and "Best Mafia Performance - Individual of 2011" in this lovely subforum, and I won the Newcomer award by a landslide (tied the Best Individual Mafia Performance with the player who was voted Best Overall Mafia Player of 2011; I think that's saying something, in itself). So please. Show me your shinies. Because I'd love to see.
Wouldn't your vote be elsewhere if you believed it to be the first? This statement is asinine and, if you were as open-minded when it comes to Mafia as you claim you are and you wish for me to believe, then your vote would be doing more productive things, like not sitting uselessly on me when it's pretty painfully obvious that no one is following your completely bunk case on me. You lost sooo many credibility points with your vote on Charm and your way of going about that, and pinkfloyd's argument against me is "self-meta is scummy because self-meta is scummy". My wagon isn't going anywhere. Be useful if you truly believe in optimal Mafia play.
Incorrect; I have addressed this above.
You're accusing me of circular logic? Firstly, my argument is most certainly not invalidated by whether or not you are good as scum - in fact, it is largely irrelevant as to whether or not you are, as my argument can go both ways - either you're good enough to realize the effectiveness of bad play OR you're so bad that you didn't realize it was bad play until you were called on it. I'm inclined to believe the first, as you have admitted that your play was, in fact, lacking.
I'm not sure I understand your second sentence. Credibility is obtainable simply by being scum?
Yes because that's totally the part I was talking about.
It's true.
I cannot express how much I dislike the way you phrased the bolded. And it's slips like that which make "bulldozing", as you put it, so effective.
@ Bold:
@ The rest: Your ways of argumentation are swaying me to believe that you may in fact not be a terrible player, which still begs the question of your initially terrible play. This is only lending credence to my argument.
I think your ego is what is preventing me from believing you are town - If you had simply said, "Yeah, you know what, that was a bad play, I'm going to count my losses and move on," I may have been inclined to let it slide, but you are still arguing that your vote was justifiable when it, in fact, was not.
I have already repeated myself many times on the matter; you should feel special, as I absolutely loathe repeating myself in Mafia. Read over the context and my previous responses and try to tell me with a straight face that you cannot honestly ascertain what I was referring to with this.
My new theory is that you acted stupidly on purpose. What do you think of it? (That's moderately rhetorical, by the way.)
You're gonna have to be a little more direct about your ad hom here if you want me to pick up what you're putting down.
Fair enough, just don't expect optimal answers from me if I can't be arsed to look however many pages or posts back and figure out what the hell we're talking about.
Why did you have such little information at the time, given that you believe yourself to be a "really, really good" player? How was I able to garner more information on the situation at hand and player in question than you were able to, given that we have access to the same resources if you are such a good player as you are professing yourself to be?
Your mom.
(Alternatively: Failing at coming at me, bro.)
Hey, everyone else, I know that you're probably not going to want to read all of this, but please do. It's rather relevant to any case I may be making on ProphetKing in the future.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Commencing re-read.
The Iso/PK assault reminds me of some of the more classic debates between Cyan and RafK. Though more often than not, they both ended up being town. Will need to read a bit deeper to make sure of that.
Wuff hasn't been on in a while...
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
How is that my problem?
Sorry again that I forgot to tell you guys. Totally slipped my mind. I had a blast, though.
I'd prefer AI, but I could go for Jobie. That overly defensive action just rubbed me the wrong way, big time.
Why did you only ask about those three?
Why do you think your vote was justifiable? (Yes, I'm sure you've said this before, but sorry. I don't remember what you said and don't have the time nor desire to read through this back and forth between you two to find it.)
Are you serious with this? You actually thought Iso was trying to convince you you were scum?
Oh, this is why? Because he overreacted?
A little history for you. Charm's last game on site was Hecatea. It was rife with n00bs who liked to flood post the game. They got him lynched D1 on a very lame case, and Charm was VERY frustrated with the whole situation.
His little rant was a bit premature, but not an overreaction. I wasn't surprised in the least to see it.
Wait, did I miss something? How is he holding your "lack of inherent 'MTGSness'" against you?
It was the weekend. Other people are not posting, either. So, why did you decide that the push it needed was an early claim from Deathjoey?
Which is overly paranoid. What do you think about it now that you've thought again?
What?
He's said one thing. Why did you decide to bring it to attention with a single post about it and nothing else?
If I'm wrong and you are town, this is just terrible. But, since you're likely scum, this is you trying to act like a good little townie.
Wait, that's what he meant by having a lack of inherent MTGSness?
That he made an opportunistic vote without realizing it would be interpreted as such?
Actually, I didn't even register that had happened. I planned to vote for my first scumspect in the nude so that I could gauge the reactions of the other players. That scumspect happened to be AI.
Ain't happening. My case is solid.
Because he's not providing any analysis!!
Is it the exact same situation? No. But it's similar enough in that aspect that it adds fuel to the fire that is in AI's pants.
Get used to things from me not computing. Iono why, but I don't make sense aometimes.
Well, not to others, at least.
No, you need to claim. Now. You are at L-2.
Leaning scum on Jobie after what I've seen here.
Goddamn, I hope Iso's town, cause that's how I'm reading him. But he scares me.
I, too, think pk and Iso are both town and just stubborn. (Well, I already knew they were both stubborn, but I'm talking in-game context now. :p)
DYH and ced, I have no clue. They're too good.
The rest need to play the flipping game already!!
@ Ced: Why did you not mention to dj that he needs to claim?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
I found RL's most recent post to be of high quality. Would like to see more from him, but nothing from him concerns me thus far.
As for you, I'm undecided. Normally, someone playing with this much bluster and bravado would read townie to me - people inherently don't like to be wrong - and coming out with this much confidence would scream townie. But since you're so full of yourself all the time, it's irrelevant.
I already covered this in my first post in the thread. Although it would be nice to hear from him again (I see he's in the thread).
PPE: I see he's posted. I think we agree on the Iso/PK exchange, only I'm less nice about it.
I was saying that doesn't strike me as "Jobie" at all.
That house will sink if either of you are planning on using it as a foundation. Those back-and-forths were a complete waste of time and basically an opportunity for the two of you to go on about how good you are at mafia. There's very little in the exchange that actually interests me on a game level.
As for deathjoey, not amused by the "I'm baaaack" post while being at L-2, and then... not being back. Also, is it time for a prod on Wuffles?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm flattered.
No, not exactly. His initial vote on Charm was a self-admitted weak vote, and I viewed it as not only weak, but opportunistic. His explanation for it was that at that stage in the game, there was little to go off of, and he'd rather place a vote with a weak reason than no vote(?) at that point. Which brings up the question of why he didn't just wait to place his vote on someone he felt was actually likely to be scum. Got an explanation, PK?
I would personally like AI to provide analysis. But a question for you, Manders. A primary point of your argument against AI is meta. Can you see parallels between his play here and in Hetalia? I know Hetalia was a bigass game, but please take a look and tell me, without confirmation bias, if you can. I'll happily do the same when I have a spare moment to do such.
Do I? Why's that?
Why do you feel the need to ask ced this, of all of the people that were around when Joey showed up?
My moderately consistent self-confidence makes it difficult for you to get a read on me?
No worries, once our exchanges are over, I can break it all down nicely and concisely to suit the purpose it's intended for.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Full claim:
Sam Rodgers, Vanilla Town.
Not really, no. He was very vocal and threw himself into a leadership position quite early in th...oh, wait, you said Hetalia.
I don't remember that game. I'll look into it when you get a chance.
Because I read you as town in Amnesia.
Because he was the only one who didn't mention dj's need to claim. That strikes me as quite off for Cedwick.
Don't let the laugh fool you, DYH. He's flattered.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Fair enough. :3
Despite the fact that it was already a prominent idea in the thread?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You know what I meant.
:3
Wait, what was a prominent idea in the thread? That dj should claim? Dj didn't know that.
Regardless, I'd like to drop this until Ced responds, please. We can pick it back up then.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Reason?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso: 3 (DeathJoey, PinkFloyd, ProphetKing)
Mandershex: 1 (Raging Levine)
Deathjoey: 5 (Charmmaster, AsianInvasion, Ced, Iso, Jobie)
AsianInvasion: 1 (Mandershex)
Jobie: 1 (DYH)
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch!
PinkFloyd has experienced some sort of computer asplosion or something. I'll be attemtping to get to the bottom of it and potentially rectify the issue as it relates to this game. Stand by folks.
Hey Joey, why is your vote STILL on me?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player