MTG Salvation

So, this game has totally stalled, and we're going to have to wait probably another 24-48 hours before Arcadic pops up again to once more completely ignore my very valid questions.

This sucks.

I bet if we lynched Tilde it would go faster.

Quote from pinky »

I don't see that as a strong scum tell. I have seen people make statements like that before as town and scum, null.

I don't think it's a question of whether or not it was fallacious - it definite was a mistake by Arcadic one way or another. He simply cannot accuse scumWoD of setting up Iso's lynching no matter how he (Arcadic) flips, because scumWoD would already know how Arcadic is going to flip.

It's certainly not absolutely indicative of scum, but it is certainly a flawed argument.

Quote from Archonoid »

I already explained this. It concerns me, in the sense that I'd rather not have it be the case, and it increases both the probability that I might be misreading him (and he's actually town) and the probability that the others might allow him to coast (and he's actually scum). It is a factor to be considered. But it does not make those behaviors irrelevant or "null". Some things simply are scummy, and I think it is a poor choice to allow someone to hide behind an "I'm always scummy" meta. Mafia is not merely a meta game; you have to look at what someone is doing in this game. That goes both ways, of course, but the reverse isn't really relevant to the particular situation.

If the decision was up to you whether or not you would lynch Iso right now, would you do so?

Quote from Iso »

Why do you think I behave so erratically? I have intentionally gone out of my way to make my standard gameplay so outlandish that regardless of my alignment, people can't say I play any differently. But my play is effective all the same.

It's a poor strategy that can ultimately make the game severely unfun for other players if adopted too widely. You can be the greatest scumhunter in the world, but you'll find difficulty convincing the town, as you have seen here, if your play is erratic to the point that it bothers other players.

I find it an excellent strategy when it comes to my success rate in a game.

The problem lies in people not accepting what is right in front of them. Mind you, I don't expect them to, as this is Mafia.

But my point is that people are discriminating against my evidence due to their inability to read me. My alignment should not determine whether or not I raise valid points against a player's play. If I were scum, it would be good play for the mafia, regardless of the alignment of the person I'm ragging on. However, being that I'm town, and far more accurate in my reads than most people that I've seen play Mafia, I think it only fair to take my reads into consideration.

Quote from Iso »

But my point is that people are discriminating against my evidence due to their inability to read me. My alignment should not determine whether or not I raise valid points against a player's play. If I were scum, it would be good play for the mafia, regardless of the alignment of the person I'm ragging on. However, being that I'm town, and far more accurate in my reads than most people that I've seen play Mafia, I think it only fair to take my reads into consideration.

I believe you're misunderstanding the responses of the other players. At least in this game, they're proving to be unreceptive not because they can't read you but because they don't believe your play and scumhunting are valid at all. I believe this is a direct consequence of your intentionally erratic playstyle.

I'm not demanding that you change your playstyle - it's up to you to decide how you want to enjoy Mafia. But I recommend you consider how players have reacted to your play here, with regards to your capacity to accomplish your agenda.

Quote from iLord

It's a poor strategy that can ultimately make the game severely unfun for other players if adopted too widely. You can be the greatest scumhunter in the world, but you'll find difficulty convincing the town, as you have seen here, if your play is erratic to the point that it bothers other players.

This.

Also, I just scanned over all of Arcadic's posts once more. A vast majority of them were dealing with his attack concerning pinky - it is remarkably difficult to determine a player's alignment when he's attacking and able to lean upon natural reasoning. Scum are most vulnerable when they are forced to act unnaturally, and Arcadic's greatest missteps were made when he was called upon to explain his own actions. I was wavering on his lynch, but reviewing his posts has mollified my concerns considerably.

Additionally, I am very concerned with Ecophagy's interactions with him.

Vote: Arcadic

@Ecophagy: If Arcadic turns up town, who would be the scummiest player in your eyes?

Quote from Cyouni »

@iLord: How are Ecophagy's interactions "concerning"?

Quite honestly, it reads remarkably like he's bussing Arcadic. Drawing too many lines before you get some dead bodies is typically a recipe for disaster, but in this case it was too noticeable to ignore.

Reread Ecophagy's recent posts. I mentioned before that I didn't echo his certainty, and upon rereading, it occurred to me that his conviction was excessively singled-minded and seemingly forced. Especially in his #848, he is setting up quite nicely for Archonoid and Anaklusmos pushes upon Arcadic's flip.

Of course, I would understand a townie's frustration at a stalling game. But Ecophagy's posts have, as of late, seemed remarkably insincere.

I'll take it into consideration.

Oh, also worth noting: I have been considering Eco as the 3rd scum.

Quote from Iso »

Oh, also worth noting: I have been considering Eco as the 3rd scum.

Can you sort of see what I'm saying about the Arcadic/Ecophagy interaction?

Yeah, I can dig it.

I still don't think Arcadic is scum, but I could definitely see why you think Eco might be.

Quote from iLord

Can you sort of see what I'm saying about the Arcadic/Ecophagy interaction?

Yeah. The way I see it he has simply been trying to get Arcadic lynched, without adding anything to the wagon at all. Just been calling for him to lynched, and pointing out that the game has stalled, as a motivator. Not something that I am fond of.

Will be voting for Arcadic in the morning, to allow one shot to finish discussion, if he hasn't been killed before then.

Looking forward to getting to say "I told you so."

Quote from iLord

I don't think it's a question of whether or not it was fallacious - it definite was a mistake by Arcadic one way or another. He simply cannot accuse scumWoD of setting up Iso's lynching no matter how he (Arcadic) flips, because scumWoD would already know how Arcadic is going to flip.

Meh. I'm grammatically challenged so I see people who word things like that as null. Sometimes I get in a hurry and don't preview post so when I see things like that I think about how it's worded all together and not just one sentence.
[/QUOTE]

Quote from iLord

@Ecophagy: If Arcadic turns up town, who would be the scummiest player in your eyes?

I was about to ask why when I read this:

Quote from iLord

Quite honestly, it reads remarkably like he's bussing Arcadic. Drawing too many lines before you get some dead bodies is typically a recipe for disaster, but in this case it was too noticeable to ignore.

Reread Ecophagy's recent posts. I mentioned before that I didn't echo his certainty, and upon rereading, it occurred to me that his conviction was excessively singled-minded and seemingly forced. Especially in his #848, he is setting up quite nicely for Archonoid and Anaklusmos pushes upon Arcadic's flip.

Of course, I would understand a townie's frustration at a stalling game. But Ecophagy's posts have, as of late, seemed remarkably insincere.

Here is my feeling on this. I feel like anak is scum with Arcadic. I see him continue to say he thinks Arcadic is scum but stall to vote him and continue to push Iso as scum. The push it's self is weak and the reasoning seems to be a wash/rinse and repeat of basically Iso just being annoying more then scummy.

Quote from Anaklusmos

Yeah. The way I see it he has simply been trying to get Arcadic lynched, without adding anything to the wagon at all. Just been calling for him to lynched, and pointing out that the game has stalled, as a motivator. Not something that I am fond of.

Will be voting for Arcadic in the morning, to allow one shot to finish discussion, if he hasn't been killed before then.

I read this as will to jump on a wagon and following and buddying all in one shot. If Eco was trying to get Arcadic lynched like you stated here how does that read bussing? How does that read as Eco/Arcadic scum together at all?
I'm seriously would look at you if Arcadic does flip scum.

Quote from iLord

@Ecophagy: If Arcadic turns up town, who would be the scummiest player in your eyes?

Right now, I don't really have any other scum reads. The game has been going so slowly that I've forgotten most of the early part. Re reading will be taking place overnight.

However, if Arcadic does flip town then I'll be looking at his wagon to see if anyone got on it for poor reasons, or who has been consistently pushing it without placing the vote. I don't exactly have any specific player in mind, but those would be the tells I'll be looking for.

Quote from iLord

Quite honestly, it reads remarkably like he's bussing Arcadic. Drawing too many lines before you get some dead bodies is typically a recipe for disaster, but in this case it was too noticeable to ignore.

Reread Ecophagy's recent posts. I mentioned before that I didn't echo his certainty, and upon rereading, it occurred to me that his conviction was excessively singled-minded and seemingly forced. Especially in his #848, he is setting up quite nicely for Archonoid and Anaklusmos pushes upon Arcadic's flip.

Of course, I would understand a townie's frustration at a stalling game. But Ecophagy's posts have, as of late, seemed remarkably insincere.

All I can do is deny that I'm bussing, pretty much any argument I produce would be WIFOM. You're probably right that I've become more single-minded, because the guy I want lynched has not been, despite there being sufficient support for it, no convincing reasons to not and no realistic alternative presented.

The majority of the town who are on record wanting this lynch should either put their votes down or come up with an alternative. It's incredibly frustrating watching them dither around.

Quote from Anaklusmos

Yeah. The way I see it he has simply been trying to get Arcadic lynched, without adding anything to the wagon at all. Just been calling for him to lynched, and pointing out that the game has stalled, as a motivator. Not something that I am fond of.

Since you yourself are keen to see Arcadic lynched, what new things should I have brought up? What do you think has been added to the case since the initial strong case over the vig shot?

My point is that we've had 6 people willing to vote Arcadic since before he claimed (IIRC), no-one was persuaded by the claim and yet the lynch has still not been completed, a week and some 200 later. Nothing new has come up, which is why I'm frustrated at the pace.

Quote from Wrath_of_DoG

You keep focusing on my initial vote, yet you ignored why I placed it, as explained in my big post to you that you obviously didn't read.Does that answer your question as to why I voted in my first post, and about how I was somewhat non-committal until after you murdered Some One?

Yeah. You can stop talking about how flimsy my vote is now, and if you'd actually respond to the big post rather than cherry-picking the parts you THINK you can deal with, that'd be just swell.

I'mma gonna break this down.

You have to vote for someone the first post of a day. No biggie. However. You say IN THAT POST that the vote will not be changing. Providing zero reasoning. When asked for that reasoning, you first say /barn, then this, and then something else that is nowhere near what you /barned. So yeah, your vote on me doesn't make sense.

Quote from iLord

I don't think it's a question of whether or not it was fallacious - it definite was a mistake by Arcadic one way or another. He simply cannot accuse scumWoD of setting up Iso's lynching no matter how he (Arcadic) flips, because scumWoD would already know how Arcadic is going to flip.

That's not the point at all. Re-read WOD's post there again. He thinks i am scum for sure yet posts that he will pursue Iso based on how i flip. (Of course with zero initial explaination) It's not that i think his mindset is that he doesn't know how i'll flip, it is that he DOES know how i'll flip and is using it to fuel another bad wagon day2. He's making it seem like he's unsure of something he has been adamant and zealot about the whole day to fuel a 2nd mislynch. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

Unvote Vote Arcadic

@Eco I don't know, but sitting there and saying "Why isn't Arcadic dead yet?" obviously was not helping to get him killed. So, I would think that you would at least try to do something else to get him killed. Analyze his claim, make arguments on how it was possible. Do something.

@Pinky How does that read as bussing? He was on his wagon early, attempting to disguise it. He pushed Arcadic's lynch, without adding anything to the wagon as it stalled out. It just doesn't make sense to not do anything to help him dying if someone wanted him dead as much as Eco does. The biggest reason I feel it is bussing is how he was pushing Arcadic's lynch simply by just saying kill him, instead of looking for any new thing he may have missed, to reassure himself that Arcadic is scum,

Quote from iLord

If the decision was up to you whether or not you would lynch Iso right now, would you do so?

If you mean I have to decide whether to lynch him immediately or let him live for the rest of the game, yes, I would lynch him now. If you mean I could pull the trigger now or just keep trying to convince people, I think I would rather convince people. I don't like going against town consensus when killing a player, even if I have a strong scum read, so I think it's something to be done only as a last resort (when the option is even available, of course.)

I think you'll find it within the town's best interests to NOT lynch me.

Quote from Anaklusmos

@Eco I don't know, but sitting there and saying "Why isn't Arcadic dead yet?" obviously was not helping to get him killed. So, I would think that you would at least try to do something else to get him killed. Analyze his claim, make arguments on how it was possible. Do something.

I shouldn't have needed to because there was already a majority of players who wanted him dead. How do I go about convincing people who are already convinced? Telling them to get on with it seems the most sensible thing to do.

Quote from Arcadic

That's not the point at all. Re-read WOD's post there again. He thinks i am scum for sure yet posts that he will pursue Iso based on how i flip. (Of course with zero initial explaination) It's not that i think his mindset is that he doesn't know how i'll flip, it is that he DOES know how i'll flip and is using it to fuel another bad wagon day2. He's making it seem like he's unsure of something he has been adamant and zealot about the whole day to fuel a 2nd mislynch. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

Okay, I looked back at the context and I see what you mean.

I don't agree with the attack, but I can see how it's not a slip or a mistake.

Final Day 1 Votecount!

Arcadic (6): Wrath_of_DoG, pinkys_brain, Ecophagy, ~Tilde~, iLord, Anaklusmos
Iso (1): Archonoid
Wrath_of_DoG (1): Arcadic
~Tilde~ (1): Iso

Not Voting (2): Cyouni, ganderin_dan

Arcadic has been lynched.

Cop, Doc, Watcher...

Jailor, Roleblocker, Triple-voter...

Could it be possible for one player to have more than twelve abilities?

"No," says Cyan, "Impossible."

Arcadic, Cyan, town Jack of all Trades, had been lynched and forgotten.

It is now night 1. Day 2 will begin in less than 72 hours. Get your night actions in!

Cyan awakes from a nap and begins contemplating mafia games once again.

One idea was expunged in his sleep - iLord, Cyan, town 100-post abilitycop, is gone. "It's baffling that any sane person would allow a role that receives an award for spamming up the thread!"

It is now Day 2. With 9 alive, it is 5 to lynch.

Predictable NK is predictable.

Vote: Pinky

Oh, are we massclaiming? I'm for it if only to get all the potential stupidity of roles out in the open.

Vote: Ecophagy. This vote will not change.

And NO, we are not mass claiming.

Vote: Ecophagy.

Others on my scum list Arch and Anak.

All three of you: reasoning for your votes?

My reasoning is that iLord was right about the way he pushed Arcadic yesterday, and now that iLord is dead, that doesn't look good, either.

My reason's are close to what WoD's are but I also noticed that Eco playing under the radar. He was doing lots of following of others points without expressing anything new. I also did not like the way he states that he noted SO's meta was similar to another game he was town but still held the vote. I don't see him really pushing a case just pushing at a lynch.

We need to massclaim today.

Also, RE: Arcadic: Told you so.

Vote ~Tilde~

Quote from ganderin_dan

Predictable NK is predictable.

Vote: Pinky

Predictable how?

Quote from ganderin_dan

Oh, are we massclaiming? I'm for it if only to get all the potential stupidity of roles out in the open.

No, I don't think so. If we decide to, Iso certainly hasn't earned the right to go last like he wants.

Quote from Iso

Also, RE: Arcadic: Told you so.

Gee, what roles on Day 1 would know that a player would flip town?

Quote from Iso »

We need to massclaim today.

Why do we need to?

Quote from Wrath_of_DoG

My reasoning is that iLord was right about the way he pushed Arcadic yesterday, and now that iLord is dead, that doesn't look good, either.

..Yesterday, iLord said I was bussing. I don't really see how I can have been bussing a townie...
Nice WIFOM there. As GD noted, iLord was not exactly an unpredictable kill.

Quote from pinkys_brain

My reason's are close to what WoD's are but I also noticed that Eco playing under the radar. He was doing lots of following of others points without expressing anything new. I also did not like the way he states that he noted SO's meta was similar to another game he was town but still held the vote. I don't see him really pushing a case just pushing at a lynch.

Explain how I have been playing under the radar when I have been posting prominently while pushing the two main wagons of yesterday.

I disagree that I was following without expressing new things. While my votes on Arcadic and SomeOne initially came after another player had made a solid point against them (WoD and Iso respectively), in both cases I added more than just "/barn", pushed the case with dialogue, and added more points as they came up.
I also don't really see how you can accuse me of "following" when I was the first vote on SO and the second on Arcadic, and largely responsible for actually completing the Arcadic lynch.

I noted SO's meta was similar to one town game from 2008. As I said at the time, this alone was not sufficient to induce an unvote, but that further research into his metagame was required. Before I could do so (and therefore before I had enough evidence to reconsider my vote), he was killed.

I have been pushing cases all game. I very clearly stated against SO that there was no town mentality behind his attempts to get Iso to claim if he thought Iso was town, he lied about his reads and defended himself poorly. Similarly, I made it very obvious that I thought Arcadic's daykill came from a scum mindset - just because in some posts I called for a lynch without repeating my case doesn't magically make the case stop applying.

Quote from ~Tilde~

No, I don't think so. If we decide to, Iso certainly hasn't earned the right to go last like he wants.

I don't recall asking for your opinion on the matter, but it would be highly anti-town to push for me not to go last in the massclaim.

Quote from ~Tilde~ »

Gee, what roles on Day 1 would know that a player would flip town?

I like how you assume it's my role that indicated to me that Arcadic was town, when in fact, it was behavioral analysis. Get lynched.

Whoops, forgot about Eco's post.

Quote from Ecophagy

Why do we need to?

To control the scum's actions.

Quote from Iso

I don't recall asking for your opinion on the matter, but it would be highly anti-town to push for me not to go last in the massclaim.



I like how you assume it's my role that indicated to me that Arcadic was town, when in fact, it was behavioral analysis. Get lynched.

Your single-mindedness makes you less useful than Wrath. He's at least forced by his role to put his vote on someone and stay with it. You, on the other hand, are tunneled on me so hard you're not even bothering to look anymore.

Because I believe you, Anak, and Eco to be the scum team.

Why should I look further when there are obviously only 3 scum in this game?

I'm away until Monday

Quote from Iso

Because I believe you, Anak, and Eco to be the scum team.

Why should I look further when there are obviously only 3 scum in this game?

If you believed Eco to be scum, why did you vote me to start the day instead of Eco, who had a legitimate wagon and would have been at L-2 had you voted for him before he decided to pull his vanishing act for the weekend.

Re: Eco - The timing of said vanishing act is VERY iffy.
I'm going to FOS: Ecophagy as a vote placeholder.

Quote from Cyouni

Explain this statement.

It was buried in a wall-of-text post.

Quote from Wrath_of_DoG

If I don't place a vote in my first post of the day, I can't vote. Pitbull tunnel-vision Cyan. Same thing applied after the votes were reset.

WoD's vote is locked at the beginning of the day. Iso's doing the same thing, but by choice.

Quote from ~Tilde~

If you believed Eco to be scum, why did you vote me to start the day instead of Eco, who had a legitimate wagon and would have been at L-2 had you voted for him before he decided to pull his vanishing act for the weekend.

Because, as I stated from Day 1, I would rather you get lynched first, as I believe you to be scum, and in the case that I am correct, I believe you to be the most dangerous member of the scum team. If you'll note, I did say this before.

Quote from ~Tilde~

Iso's doing the same thing, but by choice.

You say that like assertion is a bad thing.

Quote from Iso

You say that like assertion is a bad thing.

It is, the fact you can't figure this out is disturbing.

I am heavily against a mass-claim today. There is no reason to out everyone t this point, as we most certainly not in a state where we are about to lose.

Quote from Anaklusmos

It is, the fact you can't figure this out is disturbing.

Remember what happened last time we were in a game together and I wasn't assertive?

I do.

We lost.

Iji Mafia.

Surely you remember.

Quote from Anaklusmos »

I am heavily against a mass-claim today. There is no reason to out everyone t this point, as we most certainly not in a state where we are about to lose.

There is every reason to out everyone at this point, and whether or not we are about to lose is not relevant to that fact. It is best for the town to massclaim early in this game. Why are you so against one?

Iso, I don't see how you can know that as concrete fact. Might it be helpful to coordinate night actions? Yea, especially in a game as... unique as this. But don't pretend to know more than the rest of us.

I don't think Eco has been trying to hide.

Iso, why do you think it's best for the town to massclaim early?

Quote from ganderin_dan

I don't think Eco has been trying to hide.

He's not exactly doing much. I noted that when people started talking about SO he was there and placed a vote without any prior suspicion. After SO's death he was there to join the wagon on Arcadic even though again he had no prior suspicion on him. Today who is scummy to him? Has he brought up anything that anyone else hadn't stated?

@Arch: Have you read the game to completion? How are you suspicious with at this time and why? Do you think there needs to be a mass claim?

@Anak: I also want to hear more from you as well. Who are you looking at as scum currently and why?