That's sort of the point. Fishing (along with OMGUS, lurking, etc.) are all tells that people have a tendency to throw around haphazardly, but are all extremely situational. Anyone using "fishing" as a generic scummy thing to do is being shortsighted, whether it was a bad thing to do or not.
Agreed with this. Fishing is no more a scum tell than a town one, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a game such as this one, where crazy roles are the norm.
Okay, so three different people have claimed so far, I think. Are we really okay with going this direction?
This reads as fear-mongering, to me. Why the overreaction, when it's clear that not only had 3 people not claimed, but minimal information had come out from anyone at all at this point?
It was completely opportunistic. You didn't ask any questions to try to understand his stance or why he acted the way he did. You just stated your opinion and voted for him.
This is the worst thing that I saw Manders actually say in the thread. While most of the case against her has been reactionary to her rage, excuses and appeals, this bit of hypocrisy rang the loudest. HOWEVER, stupid justification is stupid. Not really scummy.
It's really irrelevant now since he's definitely scum, but it could show you're his buddy attempting to bus. But I really doubt that. Not many scum players are willing to START a wagon on their buddy just to bus.
Emphasis mine. This appears to be the ranting of a true believer in what she's saying. And though I raised my eyebrows when I read it, it's still not a scum perspective.
For me, it was unvoting immediately after Azrael disagreed with your read and I questioned you on the vote. As I said earlier - that looks to me like you were trying to avoid a fight.
Yeah, I think you're right, DYH. I do think that Manders was trying to avoid a fight, definitely. But why?
And is that a scum reaction? It could be. But considering Manders' stated excitement to be in this game and the quickness and multi-pronged way that she was attacked, of course she'd be trying to avoid a fight.
When did you develop such a severe case of Bravado-itis?
Better question:
How can you know Manders and not know of her pre-existing severe case of Bravado-itis?
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Are you saying this ability completely shuts down another player?
Not if they have more than one ability and do not claim them all.
Any ability or abilities they might have?
Whichever ability they claim.
Regardless of whether they are false-claiming or not?
If they don't have the ability they claimed, they won't lose their actual ability.
So if someone had theoretically "joke" claimed early on you could perma-block them for the rest of the game?
If they joke claimed their actual ability, yes, I could.
You don't mention any kind of timing restrictions on when you do this. Does it have to be immediately?
There is no mention of this, but I will clarify with Seppel.
Do you have to "quote" the claim post?
It does not state that I do, but I will clarify with Seppel.
Can you wait until the end of the day?
I will clarify this as well.
I have no time to go and review people's old games these days, so I'm going to cop out and ask other people here if they know of a game or games where Manders went flying off the handle ****ing every other sentence, and was frustrated Town? Because the few games I remember playing with her she didn't do this. Of course, one time I remember she was Town (Indiana Jones) and one time scum (Joss Whedon), so that doesn't tell me very much.
I got 2 flaming infractions in the first day of Red Dwarf when I was mislynched the first time ever. Jobie was in it.
Hmm. Just thought of something re: Manders' claimed role.
If true, it says something about what abilities the mafia might have. They're likely to be claimable, else her role would never seem to actually help the town. ('Course, now that it's outed, its effectiveness is pretty well-nerfed)
If false, well...
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
So, Manders, how come you're not jumping all over Alpha to provide you his win condition?
Also, @Alpha, "developing the Bravado-itis" was in reference to how she was playing so timidly prior to that. The basis for my vote on her was running away from the Emo vote once Azrael and I showed an inclination that she might be off-base.
So, Manders, how come you're not jumping all over Alpha to provide you his win condition?
It doesn't matter anymore. Enough people have said I'm lying scum that, even if there ARE some townies that have the same lack of WC I do, they won't admit it.
"developing the Bravado-itis" was in reference to how she was playing so timidly
I'm sorry, when was I playing timidly? I mean, I did in Normalville......
Question and Answer time:
Q: Is there a time limit on my ability?
A: It must be used by the end of the day.
Q: Do I have to quote the claim when posting IMPOSSIBLE!?
A: No, but but it would make Seppel's life easier, so I will be if I ever get to use it.
Q: Do I have to post IMPOSSIBLE! before Twilight or the posting of the lynch scene?
A: Twilight, as day abilities cannot be used during it or after.
Then I would ask you if double-posting would be bad for me in this game. As in, dangerous in some way. Then, depending on what you said, we might have a conversation.
Now it appears you are just saying you want to be the highest poster. Is that right, or is there something else?
No offense, but I have zero interest in just letting you get any particular target number of posts today.
It's not detrimental to your health, no.
That's the gist of it.
None taken, but I'm going to make every effort to get there.
Quote from Axel »
I have no time to go and review people's old games these days, so I'm going to cop out and ask other people here if they know of a game or games where Manders went flying off the handle ****ing every other sentence, and was frustrated Town? Because the few games I remember playing with her she didn't do this. Of course, one time I remember she was Town (Indiana Jones) and one time scum (Joss Whedon), so that doesn't tell me very much.
I basically covered this in my exchange with Manders yesterday. She starts on the cursing any time she comes under pressure; I was trying to see if she'd claim it was a town-only response (knowing full-well that's garbage), and she kinda went there with "I do it more when faced with BS". Eh, it's a much better read than my explanation of it anyway - it's somewhere a couple pages back.
This is the worst thing that I saw Manders actually say in the thread. While most of the case against her has been reactionary to her rage, excuses and appeals, this bit of hypocrisy rang the loudest. HOWEVER, stupid justification is stupid. Not really scummy.
Actually, this is not the worst thing she said in the thread - I already pointed that one out. By literal definition, she's 100% right about the opportunism - but yeah, it's a silly accusation because no one I know comes out with a full-fledged case for every single vote they make.
Quote from AI »
Emphasis mine. This appears to be the ranting of a true believer in what she's saying. And though I raised my eyebrows when I read it, it's still not a scum perspective.
Your defense of Manders is noted.
Quote from AI »
Yeah, I think you're right, DYH. I do think that Manders was trying to avoid a fight, definitely. But why?
I thought I already addressed this (as did AE), but uh, because Azrael and I were "on" to her early and she didn't want to trip up like she ultimately did. As I've said, Manders is very conscious of how she plays, and she knew she was in trouble.
Quote from AI »
And is that a scum reaction? It could be. But considering Manders' stated excitement to be in this game and the quickness and multi-pronged way that she was attacked, of course she'd be trying to avoid a fight.
More defense after agreeing with my position? I don't like this post at all. More later.
Quote from AI »
Fair enough that you claim you can't vote.
Bigger issue is that I assume you could give reasons why Manders is worth your phantom vote. But you don't give reasons.
If you're going to ride coattails, have the courtesy to say so.
You might want to make a better vote (or rather hold off on voting ManderScum just yet, please). It's pretty apparent why Jobie didn't vote her (she's at L-2).
Hmm. Just thought of something re: Manders' claimed role.
If true, it says something about what abilities the mafia might have. They're likely to be claimable, else her role would never seem to actually help the town. ('Course, now that it's outed, its effectiveness is pretty well-nerfed)
If false, well...
Exactly what I meant when I said we "could discuss how anti-town your role is". Which group of players is infinitely more likely to claim truthfully? Town or Scum? Town.
Also, Manders, this answers your "why would I claim this role as scum?" WIFOM from earlier -- if your really do have this role that requires people to tell the truth for it to work, it stands to reason others could exist and you didn't want to get busted for telling a lie. You said it yourself, honesty is the best policy.
It doesn't matter anymore. Enough people have said I'm lying scum that, even if there ARE some townies that have the same lack of WC I do, they won't admit it.
Bwahahahahaha. This from the person who said "I know other people have it, I'm not the only one"? My theory? Alpha is your buddy and you've accidentally outed him by not caring what his WC is - because subconsciously you know it's not the standard town one.
Quote from MandersHex »
I'm sorry, when was I playing timidly? I mean, I did in Normalville......
/facepalm
See: running away from vote.
Also, the appeals to emotion are slightly annoying, yes, but they're also quite telling. The "At least give me that much respect" is pretty much an admission of guilt, because it doesn't make much sense without an implied [Even though I got myself caught day one] in front of it.
I am troubled by the whole "You don't know what your win condition is" thing. At first, I though Manders might have been saying Seppel made a mistake in formatting her role PM, but that's not what she is describing at all. This is some kind of (alleged) differently formatted Win Condition from what the majority of us appear to have.
Questions are: how does she make a "mistake" like that if she is scum? The only way I see it being possible is if she just completely missed the fact that there was a sample Role PM in the opening post, and therefore was afraid of trying to state the Town Win condition. That seems like a stretch. But....what else? Why even say the thing about the win condition at all in that case? Most people don't get grilled on their Win Conditions when they claim. You don't even need to claim "Town" most of the time as that's just assumed.
It's weird. I don't like weird.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
As I've said, Manders is very conscious of how she plays, and she knew she was in trouble.
No, not really. Didn't get in trouble until I unvoted.
You might want to make a better vote (or rather hold off on voting ManderScum just yet, please). It's pretty apparent why Jobie didn't vote her (she's at L-2).
Jobie's the one that said "Sorry Manders, but I can't do that" when asked why he didn't vote for me.
Exactly what I meant when I said we "could discuss how anti-town your role is". Which group of players is infinitely more likely to claim truthfully? Town or Scum? Town.
And yet you automatically decided it was a scum ability. Amazing.
Also, Manders, this answers your "why would I claim this role as scum?" WIFOM from earlier -- if your really do have this role that requires people to tell the truth for it to work, it stands to reason others could exist and you didn't want to get busted for telling a lie. You said it yourself, honesty is the best policy.
I hope you feel like a complete ******* when I flip town.
Bwahahahahaha. This from the person who said "I know other people have it, I'm not the only one"? My theory? Alpha is your buddy and you've accidentally outed him by not caring what his WC is - because subconsciously you know it's not the standard town one.
I know what I have and I've told the truth every step of the way. I don't know if Alpha's town or scum, and I definitely don't know what his WC is. But, it really doesn't matter anymore.
/facepalm
See: running away from vote.
Didn't "run away" from ****.
Also, the appeals to emotion are slightly annoying, yes, but they're also quite telling. The "At least give me that much respect" is pretty much an admission of guilt, because it doesn't make much sense without an implied [Even though I got myself caught day one] in front of it.
How the **** is asking Azrael, A MODERATOR, not to troll me an admission of guilt? You're out of your mind with blindness. Or scum, but I'm leaning scum.
As for your "You had 2 buddies and daychat in RtA to help you with your claim", that's bull**** and you know it. Why did I go invisible? Oh, right! Because my scum buddies weren't around and I couldn't think of what to claim. When it came to the WC, what did I do? Get it from my buddies? Or get it my damn self? Do you remember? I do.
I am troubled by the whole "You don't know what your win condition is" thing. At first, I though Manders might have been saying Seppel made a mistake in formatting her role PM, but that's not what she is describing at all. This is some kind of (alleged) differently formatted Win Condition from what the majority of us appear to have.
Questions are: how does she make a "mistake" like that if she is scum? The only way I see it being possible is if she just completely missed the fact that there was a sample Role PM in the opening post, and therefore was afraid of trying to state the Town Win condition. That seems like a stretch. But....what else? Why even say the thing about the win condition at all in that case? Most people don't get grilled on their Win Conditions when they claim. You don't even need to claim "Town" most of the time as that's just assumed.
It's weird. I don't like weird.
Seppel didn't make a mistake. What I claimed is what is in my role PM. I didn't even check the OP because I figured all the townies had the same WC and Seppel did it to prevent anyone being cleared or condemned on WC claims. Obviously I was wrong.
I recognize that I ****ed up and cause myself to be brought to L-2, but THIS is what I'm getting lynched for and it SUCKS.
See, you're completely aware of how you play, and particularly so in the case where you were scum. That's why I'm struggling with this "I made a mistake" and "I'm not afraid" defense
Yeah, and I always do. Doesn't mean I don't make ****ing mistakes.
Quote from Manders »
And yet you automatically decided it was a scum ability. Amazing.
And yet you separate out the part where I explain why you claimed truthfully and respond with this:
Quote from Manders »
I hope you feel like a complete ******* when I flip town.
You aren't going to flip town, so I don't have to worry about that.
Quote from Manders »
How the **** is asking Azrael, A MODERATOR, not to troll me an admission of guilt? You're out of your mind with blindness. Or scum, but I'm leaning scum.
Oh we're back to mud-slinging now, are we? I explained - pretty clearly - why it looks like an admission of guilt to me. You're just lashing out because you're pissed you got caught.
Quote from Manders »
As for your "You had 2 buddies and daychat in RtA to help you with your claim", that's bull**** and you know it. Why did I go invisible? Oh, right! Because my scum buddies weren't around and I couldn't think of what to claim. When it came to the WC, what did I do? Get it from my buddies? Or get it my damn self? Do you remember? I do.
This **** is bogus as ****.
I seem to recall your claim being "terrible" (RP's words, not mine), and that's why you went invisible. You failed to list a burnout or flavor. Seppel had you dead to rights but no one listened. I'm struggling here - what's the point? That you fake-claimed terribly in the past? Your fake-claim here is prety terrible, too, but you at least elaborated on the ability, so you've learned something? I don't get what you're getting at. At all.
Remember that huge post I made that showed how your post was BS and how Foo was scum? Yeah, in that post, I showed how I was only under minimal pressure. Anyone that knows me knows I won't run from minimal pressure. ****, just ask Axel. I went head to head against Cyan in IJ, my 3rd game on the site.
I haven't changed my story. I wasn't scared. You asked me a question, I thought about it, and realized my vote was bad and not well thought out.
And yet you separate out the part where I explain why you claimed truthfully and respond with this:
You aren't going to flip town, so I don't have to worry about that.
Uou really do, and your absolute refusal to even consider otherwise is telling.
Oh we're back to mud-slinging now, are we? I explained - pretty clearly - why it looks like an admission of guilt to me. You're just lashing out because you're pissed you got caught.
My comment to Az wasn't even game related. He trolled me, and I asked him not to do so. How is that mud-slinging?
I seem to recall your claim being "terrible" (RP's words, not mine), and that's why you went invisible. You failed to list a burnout or flavor. Seppel had you dead to rights but no one listened. I'm struggling here - what's the point? That you fake-claimed terribly in the past? Your fake-claim here is prety terrible, too, but you at least elaborated on the ability, so you've learned something? I don't get what you're getting at. At all.
And you chastised me for not remembering well.
I claimed...ok. I did forget to include a burnout and flavor, but town can do that to. I went invisible because I had no idea what to claim for a burnout and I wanted to buy myself some town while I thought.
Did any of that happen here? No? Then you can't possibly compare this to that. I didn't false-claim here. I've not lied once. Not once.
So, DYH, you are saying Manders has flipped out like this when Town before, and also "faked" flipping out like this as scum, is that right?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Remember that huge post I made that showed how your post was BS and how Foo was scum? Yeah, in that post, I showed how I was only under minimal pressure. Anyone that knows me knows I won't run from minimal pressure. ****, just ask Axel. I went head to head against Cyan in IJ, my 3rd game on the site.
And I've contested that from the get-go. We have to agree to disagree here because I think you ran from the Emo vote because you didn't want attention from me and Azrael.
Quote from Manders »
I haven't changed my story. I wasn't scared. You asked me a question, I thought about it, and realized my vote was bad and not well thought out.
I'm referring to my comment about you being aware of how you play. You replied "yes I do" in one instance, and "no, not really" in another.
Quote from Manders »
You really do, and your absolute refusal to even consider otherwise is telling.
Do what? Have to worry about you flipping town? I lost all faith in that happening after you claimed, and I wasn't real high on the possibility beforehad.
Between the coincidental perma-block you had no reaction to having and the jacked up WC, I put that possibility at microscopically north of 0% - and that relies on you being absolutely horrible at mafia and/or Seppel screwing with just you intentionally. I don't like the odds on either.
Quote from Manders »
My comment to Az wasn't even game related. He trolled me, and I asked him not to do so. How is that mud-slinging?
Uh, the part where you called me blind and implied I'm scum. That's the mud-slinging. Wasn't hard. Would you prefer I just called it OMGUS? That's twice you've gone down that road today.
Quote from Manders »
And you chastised me for not remembering well.
I claimed...ok. I did forget to include a burnout and flavor, but town can do that to. I went invisible because I had no idea what to claim for a burnout and I wanted to buy myself some town while I thought.
Did any of that happen here? No? Then you can't possibly compare this to that. I didn't false-claim here. I've not lied once. Not once.
BECAUSE YOU HAD DAY TALK. It was possible for your buddies to come in and bail you out in scum chat. Unless you have day talk here what's the point in waiting? Unless you had an inkling you'd be in huge trouble today (or even had time pre-game to talk), you wouldn't have covered false claims. That's why it's different, and explains pretty easily how you'd manage to screw up your WC claim when it's in the first post.
So, DYH, you are saying Manders has flipped out like this when Town before, and also "faked" flipping out like this as scum, is that right?
I'm saying she flips out all the time when she comes under pressure; I was seeing if she'd try to claim it only happens when she's town. The flipping out in and of itself isn't a tell for her, but things she does while flipping out can be. See RtA where she went from answering with short one-word responses to getting emotional again when Seppel called her on it. The "stoic" issue she can't seem to remember - which happened immediately after her claim there which she can now seem to miraculously remember everything about.
It's comparable to the bravado comment I asked about - she got all brazen and huffed up after AE and I basically called her a chicken and she's been lashing out ever since.
I'm referring to my comment about you being aware of how you play. You replied "yes I do" in one instance, and "no, not really" in another.
The "no, not really" was in response to be being in trouble. Thought that would be obvious by now.
Do what? Have to worry about you flipping town? I lost all faith in that happening after you claimed, and I wasn't real high on the possibility beforehad.
Between the coincidental perma-block you had no reaction to having and the jacked up WC, I put that possibility at microscopically north of 0% - and that relies on you being absolutely horrible at mafia and/or Seppel screwing with just you intentionally. I don't like the odds on either.
I'm not horrible at mafia and I don't think Seppel is screwing with me intentionally. I'm sure whoever has the same role as me in the other game has the same WC verbage I do. I only hope he/she/it has better luck than I do.
Regardless, I'm done arguing with you. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility that I'm town, so I look forward to whatever you might have to say about all this **** once I flip town.
Because I most definitely will.
Uh, the part where you called me blind and implied I'm scum. That's the mud-slinging. Wasn't hard. Would you prefer I just called it OMGUS? That's twice you've gone down that road today.
Well, look at it this way. Either you're wrong or you're scum going for an easy mis-lynch. Those are the only two possibilities here in regards to you.
BECAUSE YOU HAD DAY TALK.
Implying you know scum don't here. Good job.
It was possible for your buddies to come in and bail you out in scum chat. Unless you have day talk here what's the point in waiting?
What waiting are you talking about? When I waited to post my claim? That's because I had to clear it with Seppel. I ALWAYS clear my claim with the mod after I almost got modkilled in IJ for paraphrasing a BIT too closely.
Unless you had an inkling you'd be in huge trouble today (or even had time pre-game to talk), you wouldn't have covered false claims. That's why it's different, and explains pretty easily how you'd manage to screw up your WC claim when it's in the first post.
This is what makes me think you're scum. For you to even consider the possibility that I, as scum, wouldn't check the OP for town WC. It's ****ing ridiculous, and completely implying that I'm a ****ing idiot.
I'm saying she flips out all the time when she comes under pressure; I was seeing if she'd try to claim it only happens when she's town. The flipping out in and of itself isn't a tell for her, but things she does while flipping out can be. See RtA where she went from answering with short one-word responses to getting emotional again when Seppel called her on it. The "stoic" issue she can't seem to remember - which happened immediately after her claim there which she can now seem to miraculously remember everything about.
I don't remember being called out for being stoic, probably because I don't know what it means. Get over it.
It's comparable to the bravado comment I asked about - she got all brazen and huffed up after AE and I basically called her a chicken and she's been lashing out ever since.
I'm ALWAYS brazen, DYH. That's what AI was saying with his statement about you knowing me and not knowing of my severe bravado-itis.
I ain't scared of ****.
At work now. I'll check back in on my lunch around 2.
Regardless, I'm done arguing with you. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility that I'm town, so I look forward to whatever you might have to say about all this **** once I flip town.
Because I most definitely will.
Good, because frankly I'm tired of listening to you rant like a toddler sailor; wears me out. Wise men say that adding profanity to an argument actually weakens it.
blah blah blah on the flipping town bit. It's a tired act.
Quote from Manders »
Well, look at it this way. Either you're wrong or you're scum going for an easy mis-lynch. Those are the only two possibilities here in regards to you.
Oh the irony.
(Hi, false dichotomy!)
Quote from Manders »
Implying you know scum don't here. Good job.
Right. Since I clearly address that very topic in the next sentence where I say "unless you have day talk this game". Pathetic attempt at smearing.
Quote from Manders »
What waiting are you talking about? When I waited to post my claim? That's because I had to clear it with Seppel. I ALWAYS clear my claim with the mod after I almost got modkilled in IJ for paraphrasing a BIT too closely.
This is what makes me think you're scum. For you to even consider the possibility that I, as scum, wouldn't check the OP for town WC. It's ****ing ridiculous, and completely implying that I'm a ****ing idiot.
Hey, you're the one who pointed out you'd done that very thing before. Tried to use it as a defense, even! Begged Guardman to comment on it! Are you serious, here?
In fairness, it was spoilered this time. I could see how you might have missed it in your panic. You couldn't very well not post a claim - you'd been too active too long to just conveniently disappear when you hit L-2.
So far I realized just how often Cyan claims things are impossible. I know he said that not double posting in mafia was impossible, so the inspirations are probably fairly loosely drawn anyways. I was really looking for a tie in to MH's claim:
I'm Cyan, Town Impossible Perma Roleblocker. Once a day, when someone claims, I can put, in bold font, IMPOSSIBLE! in the thread, and that person will be permablocked. It does say that person will be notified via PM that they were targeted whether they lied about their role or not. I have the standard town win condition, but I do not know it.
My reaction is that it's pretty much impossible(!) for her to be lying about the role PM thing, and I doubt scum would ignore a sample PM and just claim it's not there. I honestly have a lot of mixed feelings about Manders, but the nuggets of town behaviors I see are overshadowed by the rest. My strongest reaction is to let the day go on for a bit longer and let everyone flesh out their thoughts (well, more just Jobie and ~r) simply because I'm not 100% comfortable with a lynch despite voting for her at the moment.
I am troubled by the whole "You don't know what your win condition is" thing. At first, I though Manders might have been saying Seppel made a mistake in formatting her role PM, but that's not what she is describing at all. This is some kind of (alleged) differently formatted Win Condition from what the majority of us appear to have.
Questions are: how does she make a "mistake" like that if she is scum? The only way I see it being possible is if she just completely missed the fact that there was a sample Role PM in the opening post, and therefore was afraid of trying to state the Town Win condition. That seems like a stretch. But....what else? Why even say the thing about the win condition at all in that case? Most people don't get grilled on their Win Conditions when they claim. You don't even need to claim "Town" most of the time as that's just assumed.
It's weird. I don't like weird.
Well the new breed of players are obsessed with claiming "TOWN <insert role>", a lot of flavor, and a win condition and will actually call people scummy for not including that information with their initial claim. It still doesn't explain why she would say she didn't have the town WC in her role PM.
There are so many things I would like to say to you right now, DYH, but I have to be on my best behavior.
Just know I'll likely NEVER play another game with you again, if I ever play again at all
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm Honest-to-God trying to be helpful. Throwing a virtual tantrum and dropping F-bombs in every line is not a fun discourse.
Regarding Axel's issue (and subsequently Emo's): isn't the simplest (i.e. Occam's Razor) solution that she simply lied about her role, missed the sample role PM, and came up with a stopgap solution?
If she was town, she shouldn't have been going into "Oh I'm screwed, I'm lynched" mode with a somewhat confirmable power role (roleblocker). I could understand that mindset if she'd claimed vanilla or something. She never once broached the subject of using her ability to help confirm her. This doesn't strike any of you as odd?
You might want to make a better vote (or rather hold off on voting ManderScum just yet, please). It's pretty apparent why Jobie didn't vote her (she's at L-2).
Yeah... that's it.
@AI: This is not reading like what I remember from Red Dwarf. This reads more as forced frustration than legit frustration. See the last couple of posts by Manders.
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Okay, Axelrod actually makes a decent point about the WC thing: there's no train of thought that really makes sense that leads a scum player to actively avoid using the sample PM.
That means there are the following possibilities, that I can imagine:
She's non-town and missed that there was a sample PM.
She has some role-based reason to avoid claiming to have that WC (could be town or non-town) - could just be as simple as she wants to get up to L-x votes or she could have a role with a variable WC, or anything in between, really.
But completely apart from role analysis, her behavior is completely self-focused and has been from the beginning. If it were just the weird WC shenanigans, I'd actually say it's probably a slight point in her favor more than anything, because normal play doesn't lead a scum to do what she did. But I have never felt at any point that her play was guided by an effort to find scum more than to keep herself alive, and that's a much stronger point against her than anything else.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
If she was town, she shouldn't have been going into "Oh I'm screwed, I'm lynched" mode with a somewhat confirmable power role (roleblocker). I could understand that mindset if she'd claimed vanilla or something. She never once broached the subject of using her ability to help confirm her. This doesn't strike any of you as odd?
ARE. YOU. SERIOUS?!?! I'M A ROLEBLOCKER!!!
Even if I DO confirm that is my ability, that doesn't do jack for whether I'm town or not, and I know that.
Okay, Axelrod actually makes a decent point about the WC thing: there's no train of thought that really makes sense that leads a scum player to actively avoid using the sample PM.
That means there are the following possibilities, that I can imagine:
She's non-town and missed that there was a sample PM.
She has some role-based reason to avoid claiming to have that WC (could be town or non-town) - could just be as simple as she wants to get up to L-x votes or she could have a role with a variable WC, or anything in between, really.
But completely apart from role analysis, her behavior is completely self-focused and has been from the beginning. If it were just the weird WC shenanigans, I'd actually say it's probably a slight point in her favor more than anything, because normal play doesn't lead a scum to do what she did. But I have never felt at any point that her play was guided by an effort to find scum more than to keep herself alive, and that's a much stronger point against her than anything else.
I was definitely scumhunting before I came under pressure by asking questions and probing, which is how I always scumhunt. Right now, all I have time to do is defend myself from all of this.
Considering I think you've lied about your role, specifically, (as well as the WC) it would go a long way towards proving you actually had it, no?
Oh, except that what you're referring to, when I stated at first that I was the lynch, was well before I had even claimed. Right? RIGHT?
Right.
So, tell me, IF I proved that I have this ability, which I absolutely can do, what would that prove to you?
Oh, except that what you're referring to, when I stated at first that I was the lynch, was well before I had even claimed. Right? RIGHT?
Right.
That's kind of the point. You had resigned yourself to being the lynch before you claimed - that's behavior befitting someone who has a weak or unprovable or vanilla claim.
Then you claim perma-roleblocker.
See my confusion?
Quote from Manders »
So, tell me, IF I proved that I have this ability, which I absolutely can do, what would that prove to you?
Well, that ship may very well have sailed as a result of you screwing up the WC.
But, you didn't think in any way, shape, or form that someone getting a PM even if they fake claimed could have been remotely confirmable? Like random person X claims something outlandish, you drop your ability on it, and they confirm "hey, I did get targeted!"?
None of this occurred to you. I think it's because it's not your actual role.
That's kind of the point. You had resigned yourself to being the lynch before you claimed - that's behavior befitting someone who has a weak or unprovable or vanilla claim.
Then you claim perma-roleblocker.
See my confusion?
Roleblocker is commonly a scum role.
Well, that ship may very well have sailed as a result of you screwing up the WC.
But, you didn't think in any way, shape, or form that someone getting a PM even if they fake claimed could have been remotely confirmable? Like random person X claims something outlandish, you drop your ability on it, and they confirm "hey, I did get targeted!"?
None of this occurred to you. I think it's because it's not your actual role.
Of course it occurred to me. What you are ignoring is that proving I have the ability I have does NOT confirm my alignment. I knew this when I GOT the role.
It would prove you weren't lying about the ability - which is the first step.
I don't think you understand the level of skepticism I have for your claimed role based on its remarkable similarity to your RtA one. Granted, the WC thing overshadows that, but it's an extremely high level of skepticism, nonetheless.
All I can figure is that you might have taken that role (vanillizer), made up something 'impossibly' similar, and hoped to WIFOM your way out of this with GHS and RtA references included (the 'RAWR, WIFOM' post).
At the end of the day, I'm having an extremely hard time buying this coming from "Town Manders". More apologetic and demure (the bulk of the argument in Highlander, for example), less ANGRYANGRYANGRY would have been what I expected. But you went off the handle early and often. It doesn't compute.
It's been a long time since Highlander, DYH. And you have crap for meta on me.
Either you're going to let me prove to you I have the ability or you're not. Make your decision so we can move forward already because, as of now, we're at a VERY ANNOYING standstill.
It's been a long time since Highlander, DYH. And you have crap for meta on me.
Sure, Highlanders been awhile, but "crap for meta"? I'd hardly say that. I had a step-by-step "watch it unfold" in-depth look at your scum play while modding Return to Amistaria. That wasn't so long ago.
Quote from Manders »
Either you're going to let me prove to you I have the ability or you're not. Make your decision so we can move forward already because, as of now, we're at a VERY ANNOYING standstill.
That's not up to me entirely - I don't speak for everyone. It's worth public discussion even if I think you're a slam-dunk scum case.
Sure, Highlanders been awhile, but "crap for meta"? I'd hardly say that. I had a step-by-step "watch it unfold" in-depth look at your scum play while modding Return to Amistaria. That wasn't so long ago.
You're ONLY comparing to scum meta. That's not how you analyze meta on someone and you know it.
That's not up to me entirely - I don't speak for everyone. It's worth public discussion even if I think you're a slam-dunk scum case.
You're the one leading this game.
I'll take a look.
While you're at it, how about you take a look at Ogre, Hecatea, or Red Dwarf, too?
She never once broached the subject of using her ability to help confirm her. This doesn't strike any of you as odd?
No?
I don't see where her demonstrating this ability does a thing to "confirm" her. Which is not to say that I believe or disbelieve the claim. My inclinition is to believe the ability, because, shoot, who claims that kind of ability without being able to back it up? It's a freaking DAY ability. The target gets notified they've been hit. How do you bluff that? So I'm confused a little by your apparent position that she's just totally making it up. You can think she's scum for x,y,and z reasons. But being so convinced she's just lying about the claim itself is strange to me.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
DYH, what if there was a way for Manders to prove her ability? Does that change anything?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You're ONLY comparing to scum meta. That's not how you analyze meta on someone and you know it.
I've played with you as town twice (see below). I've read other games. I'm certainly not ignorant of how you play.
Quote from Manders »
You're the one leading this game.
Well yeah, because I'm posting a ton. On purpose. And I'm spearheading a case on someone I think is scum. You and I make up over half the posts in this thread.
Quote from Manders »
While you're at it, how about you take a look at Ogre, Hecatea, or Red Dwarf, too?
You know, games I was actually in?
Do you recall that I replaced into one of those games? And that I read you correctly there as well as someone else based off their reactions to you?
EWP:
@Axel: If she can prove it that means she didn't make up the ability. Which I think she did because it's damn near a duplicate of her role from RtA - I thought I made that clear a few posts back?
I still can't compute her screwing up the WC short of just missing the sample PM. Seppel giving a townie "you don't know the standard win condition" when it's in the thread does not work for me.
I don't see where her demonstrating this ability does a thing to "confirm" her. Which is not to say that I believe or disbelieve the claim. My inclinition is to believe the ability, because, shoot, who claims that kind of ability without being able to back it up? It's a freaking DAY ability. The target gets notified they've been hit. How do you bluff that? So I'm confused a little by your apparent position that she's just totally making it up. You can think she's scum for x,y,and z reasons. But being so convinced she's just lying about the claim itself is strange to me.
Axel, will you be providing your thoughts on DYH soon? Because I KNOW he's either wrong or scum, and I'm really leaning scum because he's too good a player to be this stubborn and deluded regarding me.
I've played with you as town twice (see below). I've read other games. I'm certainly not ignorant of how you play.
I couldn't tell.
Well yeah, because I'm posting a ton. On purpose. And I'm spearheading a case on someone I think is scum. You and I make up over half the posts in this thread.
That's what happens when you go head to head with someone.
Do you recall that I replaced into one of those games? And that I read you correctly there as well as someone else based off their reactions to you?
So? You were town there. All you're doing with this **** is convincing me more and more that you're scum. Because I most certainly AM town.
Hence my earlier statement which you called a dichotomy. Either you are wrong or you are scum. Dichotomy or not, it's absolutely correct, which you will see if/when I ever die.
I still can't compute her screwing up the WC short of just missing the sample PM. Seppel giving a townie "you don't know the standard win condition" when it's in the thread does not work for me.
Then talk to Seppel about it. Because, seriously, I provided precisely what is in my role PM.
@Axel: If she can prove it that means she didn't make up the ability.
Obviously.
But this has no actual bearing on whether or not you think she is scum, right? What I'm asking is, if she "proved" this ability, and therefore "proved" this particular theory of your incorrect, would that change anything?
I'm thinking the answer is "no" and you'd still think she was scum anyway, but I wanted clarification.
I still can't compute her screwing up the WC short of just missing the sample PM. Seppel giving a townie "you don't know the standard win condition" when it's in the thread does not work for me.
I also do not understand this. I do not understand it from a scum mentality. I do not understand it is she's actually town. It makes no sense. Yes, she might have completely missed that there was a sample role PM and then, yes, she might have decided that (because she didn't "know" the actual wording) she was going to make something up to explain why she didn't know it - but this just seems really convoluted and unnecessary.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But this has no actual bearing on whether or not you think she is scum, right? What I'm asking is, if she "proved" this ability, and therefore "proved" this particular theory of your incorrect, would that change anything?
I'm thinking the answer is "no" and you'd still think she was scum anyway, but I wanted clarification.
Probably not. Like I said, the ship already sailed in my opinion from the way she approached her role pre-claim. It literally makes no sense to me from a townie perspective. It doesn't make much sense from a scum perspective, granted, but for lack of a better way to put it, all I see with her claim is one giant ball of WIFOM she tried to drop on the thread. Go back and look at the "RAWR, WIFOM" post for her defense.
The Win Condition issue is just the clincher.
Quote from Axelrod »
I also do not understand this. I do not understand it from a scum mentality. I do not understand it is she's actually town. It makes no sense. Yes, she might have completely missed that there was a sample role PM and then, yes, she might have decided that (because she didn't "know" the actual wording) she was going to make something up to explain why she didn't know it - but this just seems really convoluted and unnecessary.
Right, but it seems absolutely idiotic for the mod to have included it, so I have to go with "scum made poor decision" versus "mod did something that makes no sense", because she wouldn't lie about it as a townie (in theory, barring AWC, etc.). This is Cyan's Impossible Mafia - not Bastard Mod Mafia.
Hello, residents of Cyan's head! There are some of you who are plotting to overthrow mafia as we know it and create imbalanced games! It's up to you to determine which concepts are threatening to do the impossible!
What exactly are you asking that in reference to? Seppel supposedly giving Manders a different Town WC?
Because that's something the moderator would have done, not the scum, so I'm not sure I follow how that explains anything.
If you're looking for the deeper meaning of the game and how to idenfity scum based on flavor, well, that's the kind of stuff I like but you usually hate.
@ Guardman: Why did you refuse to comment on my statement about GHS?
@ PJ: Please confirm or deny that you have the EXACT ACTUAL Town WC in your role PM.
Because I don't know what to make of the whole WC stuff. As Axelrod pointed out it is weird no matter what. In my opinion I think at the end of the day this whole WC thing is sort of a waste of time as you are speaking Tamarian and our universal translators are "Shalak when the walls fell" (Had to go back and rewatch that episode after posting that video as it is one of my favorites). To translate though I don't think trying to figure out this WC thing will help us figure out whether you are scum or not.
I am voting you because as soon as you started to get some pressure you start flailing wildly and throwing anything you can at TFF hoping that something will stick and make people want to lynch him.
What exactly are you asking that in reference to? Seppel supposedly giving Manders a different Town WC?
Because that's something the moderator would have done, not the scum, so I'm not sure I follow how that explains anything.
If you're looking for the deeper meaning of the game and how to idenfity scum based on flavor, well, that's the kind of stuff I like but you usually hate.
Well, this seems to give us two things.
1. We should expect some really weird, impossible-seeming things in this game.
2. We're supposed to kill those roles.
Yeah, I think #1 was a given, and the flavor would indicate #2 is correct.
So with that in mind, does a wrong-win-condition-having, repeatable perma-blocker fit the bill as 'unbalanced-promoting' or 'impossible' to you? The WC definitely does for me (I've covered that not making sense multiple times now) - the claimed role itself, not so much; because once exposed, if town, the scum would make it a target and just lie about their abilities. Only really helps if the scum tell the truth to begin with.
On scum it has to be played very carefully - can't use it on too good of a power role, but can shut down questionable claimed townies. Could snipe a claimed good power role right before the end of day on a hammer vote post, but become the default lynch the next day.
Meh, the role sucks as claimed, if it's even real.
Well, not necessarily. There's no indication that the mod will directly tie the use of the word IMPOSSIBLE with the removal of the ability in the notification PM, and I think it should be possible to disguise bold text as merely a strong reaction to a claim. And in any case, there are usually a couple roles in a game that are worth sacrificing a scum to nullify. It wouldn't be a hard role to unbalance if played well; the question is how hard it would be to play it well.
Anyway, regarding Az's assumptions, I'm not comfortable acting on any conclusions derived from them. It seems really unlikely to me that the scum all have unbalanced roles and the town all have balanced roles. That's a disaster of a game design.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Well, not necessarily. There's no indication that the mod will directly tie the use of the word IMPOSSIBLE with the removal of the ability in the notification PM, and I think it should be possible to disguise bold text as merely a strong reaction to a claim. And in any case, there are usually a couple roles in a game that are worth sacrificing a scum to nullify. It wouldn't be a hard role to unbalance if played well; the question is how hard it would be to play it well.
Meh, I would think that'd get my attention in a hurry.
Quote from PJ »
Anyway, regarding Az's assumptions, I'm not comfortable acting on any conclusions derived from them. It seems really unlikely to me that the scum all have unbalanced roles and the town all have balanced roles. That's a disaster of a game design.
I certainly wouldn't advocate lynching anyone on a flavor assumption alone.
Correct. Which makes me wonder why DYH just bought that.
I was walking through the logic of the flavor being correct. I came to the conclusion that her role is plausible ("The claimed role; not so much [impossible]") yet I still think she's scum. So, you think that means I "bought it"? That's an odd conclusion to draw there, Az.
Agreed with this. Fishing is no more a scum tell than a town one, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a game such as this one, where crazy roles are the norm.
This reads as fear-mongering, to me. Why the overreaction, when it's clear that not only had 3 people not claimed, but minimal information had come out from anyone at all at this point?
This is the worst thing that I saw Manders actually say in the thread. While most of the case against her has been reactionary to her rage, excuses and appeals, this bit of hypocrisy rang the loudest. HOWEVER, stupid justification is stupid. Not really scummy.
Emphasis mine. This appears to be the ranting of a true believer in what she's saying. And though I raised my eyebrows when I read it, it's still not a scum perspective.
Yeah, I think you're right, DYH. I do think that Manders was trying to avoid a fight, definitely. But why?
And is that a scum reaction? It could be. But considering Manders' stated excitement to be in this game and the quickness and multi-pronged way that she was attacked, of course she'd be trying to avoid a fight.
Fair enough that you claim you can't vote.
Bigger issue is that I assume you could give reasons why Manders is worth your phantom vote. But you don't give reasons.
If you're going to ride coattails, have the courtesy to say so.
Vote: Jobie.
Better question:
How can you know Manders and not know of her pre-existing severe case of Bravado-itis?
Not if they have more than one ability and do not claim them all.
Whichever ability they claim.
If they don't have the ability they claimed, they won't lose their actual ability.
If they joke claimed their actual ability, yes, I could.
There is no mention of this, but I will clarify with Seppel.
It does not state that I do, but I will clarify with Seppel.
I will clarify this as well.
I got 2 flaming infractions in the first day of Red Dwarf when I was mislynched the first time ever. Jobie was in it.
There are others, but that's the best example.
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If true, it says something about what abilities the mafia might have. They're likely to be claimable, else her role would never seem to actually help the town. ('Course, now that it's outed, its effectiveness is pretty well-nerfed)
If false, well...
Pretty much. Of course, it's my own fault for being too excited and making the same damn mistake I've made before.
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Also, @Alpha, "developing the Bravado-itis" was in reference to how she was playing so timidly prior to that. The basis for my vote on her was running away from the Emo vote once Azrael and I showed an inclination that she might be off-base.
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It doesn't matter anymore. Enough people have said I'm lying scum that, even if there ARE some townies that have the same lack of WC I do, they won't admit it.
I'm sorry, when was I playing timidly? I mean, I did in Normalville......
Question and Answer time:
Q: Is there a time limit on my ability?
A: It must be used by the end of the day.
Q: Do I have to quote the claim when posting IMPOSSIBLE!?
A: No, but but it would make Seppel's life easier, so I will be if I ever get to use it.
Q: Do I have to post IMPOSSIBLE! before Twilight or the posting of the lynch scene?
A: Twilight, as day abilities cannot be used during it or after.
Anything else anyone wants clarification on?
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It's not detrimental to your health, no.
That's the gist of it.
None taken, but I'm going to make every effort to get there.
I basically covered this in my exchange with Manders yesterday. She starts on the cursing any time she comes under pressure; I was trying to see if she'd claim it was a town-only response (knowing full-well that's garbage), and she kinda went there with "I do it more when faced with BS". Eh, it's a much better read than my explanation of it anyway - it's somewhere a couple pages back.
Actually, this is not the worst thing she said in the thread - I already pointed that one out. By literal definition, she's 100% right about the opportunism - but yeah, it's a silly accusation because no one I know comes out with a full-fledged case for every single vote they make.
Your defense of Manders is noted.
I thought I already addressed this (as did AE), but uh, because Azrael and I were "on" to her early and she didn't want to trip up like she ultimately did. As I've said, Manders is very conscious of how she plays, and she knew she was in trouble.
More defense after agreeing with my position? I don't like this post at all. More later.
You might want to make a better vote (or rather hold off on voting ManderScum just yet, please). It's pretty apparent why Jobie didn't vote her (she's at L-2).
Exactly what I meant when I said we "could discuss how anti-town your role is". Which group of players is infinitely more likely to claim truthfully? Town or Scum? Town.
Also, Manders, this answers your "why would I claim this role as scum?" WIFOM from earlier -- if your really do have this role that requires people to tell the truth for it to work, it stands to reason others could exist and you didn't want to get busted for telling a lie. You said it yourself, honesty is the best policy.
Bwahahahahaha. This from the person who said "I know other people have it, I'm not the only one"? My theory? Alpha is your buddy and you've accidentally outed him by not caring what his WC is - because subconsciously you know it's not the standard town one.
/facepalm
See: running away from vote.
Also, the appeals to emotion are slightly annoying, yes, but they're also quite telling. The "At least give me that much respect" is pretty much an admission of guilt, because it doesn't make much sense without an implied [Even though I got myself caught day one] in front of it.
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Questions are: how does she make a "mistake" like that if she is scum? The only way I see it being possible is if she just completely missed the fact that there was a sample Role PM in the opening post, and therefore was afraid of trying to state the Town Win condition. That seems like a stretch. But....what else? Why even say the thing about the win condition at all in that case? Most people don't get grilled on their Win Conditions when they claim. You don't even need to claim "Town" most of the time as that's just assumed.
It's weird. I don't like weird.
No, not really. Didn't get in trouble until I unvoted.
Jobie's the one that said "Sorry Manders, but I can't do that" when asked why he didn't vote for me.
And yet you automatically decided it was a scum ability. Amazing.
I hope you feel like a complete ******* when I flip town.
I know what I have and I've told the truth every step of the way. I don't know if Alpha's town or scum, and I definitely don't know what his WC is. But, it really doesn't matter anymore.
Didn't "run away" from ****.
How the **** is asking Azrael, A MODERATOR, not to troll me an admission of guilt? You're out of your mind with blindness. Or scum, but I'm leaning scum.
As for your "You had 2 buddies and daychat in RtA to help you with your claim", that's bull**** and you know it. Why did I go invisible? Oh, right! Because my scum buddies weren't around and I couldn't think of what to claim. When it came to the WC, what did I do? Get it from my buddies? Or get it my damn self? Do you remember? I do.
This **** is bogus as ****.
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Seppel didn't make a mistake. What I claimed is what is in my role PM. I didn't even check the OP because I figured all the townies had the same WC and Seppel did it to prevent anyone being cleared or condemned on WC claims. Obviously I was wrong.
I recognize that I ****ed up and cause myself to be brought to L-2, but THIS is what I'm getting lynched for and it SUCKS.
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You can't even keep your story straight.
And yet you separate out the part where I explain why you claimed truthfully and respond with this:
You aren't going to flip town, so I don't have to worry about that.
Oh we're back to mud-slinging now, are we? I explained - pretty clearly - why it looks like an admission of guilt to me. You're just lashing out because you're pissed you got caught.
I seem to recall your claim being "terrible" (RP's words, not mine), and that's why you went invisible. You failed to list a burnout or flavor. Seppel had you dead to rights but no one listened. I'm struggling here - what's the point? That you fake-claimed terribly in the past? Your fake-claim here is prety terrible, too, but you at least elaborated on the ability, so you've learned something? I don't get what you're getting at. At all.
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Remember that huge post I made that showed how your post was BS and how Foo was scum? Yeah, in that post, I showed how I was only under minimal pressure. Anyone that knows me knows I won't run from minimal pressure. ****, just ask Axel. I went head to head against Cyan in IJ, my 3rd game on the site.
I haven't changed my story. I wasn't scared. You asked me a question, I thought about it, and realized my vote was bad and not well thought out.
Uou really do, and your absolute refusal to even consider otherwise is telling.
My comment to Az wasn't even game related. He trolled me, and I asked him not to do so. How is that mud-slinging?
And you chastised me for not remembering well.
I claimed...ok. I did forget to include a burnout and flavor, but town can do that to. I went invisible because I had no idea what to claim for a burnout and I wanted to buy myself some town while I thought.
Did any of that happen here? No? Then you can't possibly compare this to that. I didn't false-claim here. I've not lied once. Not once.
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And I've contested that from the get-go. We have to agree to disagree here because I think you ran from the Emo vote because you didn't want attention from me and Azrael.
I'm referring to my comment about you being aware of how you play. You replied "yes I do" in one instance, and "no, not really" in another.
Do what? Have to worry about you flipping town? I lost all faith in that happening after you claimed, and I wasn't real high on the possibility beforehad.
Between the coincidental perma-block you had no reaction to having and the jacked up WC, I put that possibility at microscopically north of 0% - and that relies on you being absolutely horrible at mafia and/or Seppel screwing with just you intentionally. I don't like the odds on either.
Uh, the part where you called me blind and implied I'm scum. That's the mud-slinging. Wasn't hard. Would you prefer I just called it OMGUS? That's twice you've gone down that road today.
BECAUSE YOU HAD DAY TALK. It was possible for your buddies to come in and bail you out in scum chat. Unless you have day talk here what's the point in waiting? Unless you had an inkling you'd be in huge trouble today (or even had time pre-game to talk), you wouldn't have covered false claims. That's why it's different, and explains pretty easily how you'd manage to screw up your WC claim when it's in the first post.
I'm saying she flips out all the time when she comes under pressure; I was seeing if she'd try to claim it only happens when she's town. The flipping out in and of itself isn't a tell for her, but things she does while flipping out can be. See RtA where she went from answering with short one-word responses to getting emotional again when Seppel called her on it. The "stoic" issue she can't seem to remember - which happened immediately after her claim there which she can now seem to miraculously remember everything about.
It's comparable to the bravado comment I asked about - she got all brazen and huffed up after AE and I basically called her a chicken and she's been lashing out ever since.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The "no, not really" was in response to be being in trouble. Thought that would be obvious by now.
I'm not horrible at mafia and I don't think Seppel is screwing with me intentionally. I'm sure whoever has the same role as me in the other game has the same WC verbage I do. I only hope he/she/it has better luck than I do.
Regardless, I'm done arguing with you. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility that I'm town, so I look forward to whatever you might have to say about all this **** once I flip town.
Because I most definitely will.
Well, look at it this way. Either you're wrong or you're scum going for an easy mis-lynch. Those are the only two possibilities here in regards to you.
Implying you know scum don't here. Good job.
What waiting are you talking about? When I waited to post my claim? That's because I had to clear it with Seppel. I ALWAYS clear my claim with the mod after I almost got modkilled in IJ for paraphrasing a BIT too closely.
This is what makes me think you're scum. For you to even consider the possibility that I, as scum, wouldn't check the OP for town WC. It's ****ing ridiculous, and completely implying that I'm a ****ing idiot.
I don't remember being called out for being stoic, probably because I don't know what it means. Get over it.
I'm ALWAYS brazen, DYH. That's what AI was saying with his statement about you knowing me and not knowing of my severe bravado-itis.
I ain't scared of ****.
At work now. I'll check back in on my lunch around 2.
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Good, because frankly I'm tired of listening to you rant like a toddler sailor; wears me out. Wise men say that adding profanity to an argument actually weakens it.
blah blah blah on the flipping town bit. It's a tired act.
Oh the irony.
(Hi, false dichotomy!)
Right. Since I clearly address that very topic in the next sentence where I say "unless you have day talk this game". Pathetic attempt at smearing.
Hey, you're the one who pointed out you'd done that very thing before. Tried to use it as a defense, even! Begged Guardman to comment on it! Are you serious, here?
In fairness, it was spoilered this time. I could see how you might have missed it in your panic. You couldn't very well not post a claim - you'd been too active too long to just conveniently disappear when you hit L-2.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Are you capable of having a conversation that is even somewhat civilized?
Just know I'll likely NEVER play another game with you again, if I ever play again at all
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So far I realized just how often Cyan claims things are impossible. I know he said that not double posting in mafia was impossible, so the inspirations are probably fairly loosely drawn anyways. I was really looking for a tie in to MH's claim:
My reaction is that it's pretty much impossible(!) for her to be lying about the role PM thing, and I doubt scum would ignore a sample PM and just claim it's not there. I honestly have a lot of mixed feelings about Manders, but the nuggets of town behaviors I see are overshadowed by the rest. My strongest reaction is to let the day go on for a bit longer and let everyone flesh out their thoughts (well, more just Jobie and ~r) simply because I'm not 100% comfortable with a lynch despite voting for her at the moment.
I voted TFF, so there's that.
EWP: I have the same issues as Axelrod:
Well the new breed of players are obsessed with claiming "TOWN <insert role>", a lot of flavor, and a win condition and will actually call people scummy for not including that information with their initial claim. It still doesn't explain why she would say she didn't have the town WC in her role PM.
You know that I am. Why did you even ask this?
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Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm Honest-to-God trying to be helpful. Throwing a virtual tantrum and dropping F-bombs in every line is not a fun discourse.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The point is in the principle.
If she was town, she shouldn't have been going into "Oh I'm screwed, I'm lynched" mode with a somewhat confirmable power role (roleblocker). I could understand that mindset if she'd claimed vanilla or something. She never once broached the subject of using her ability to help confirm her. This doesn't strike any of you as odd?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
@AI: This is not reading like what I remember from Red Dwarf. This reads more as forced frustration than legit frustration. See the last couple of posts by Manders.
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That means there are the following possibilities, that I can imagine:
She's non-town and missed that there was a sample PM.
She has some role-based reason to avoid claiming to have that WC (could be town or non-town) - could just be as simple as she wants to get up to L-x votes or she could have a role with a variable WC, or anything in between, really.
But completely apart from role analysis, her behavior is completely self-focused and has been from the beginning. If it were just the weird WC shenanigans, I'd actually say it's probably a slight point in her favor more than anything, because normal play doesn't lead a scum to do what she did. But I have never felt at any point that her play was guided by an effort to find scum more than to keep herself alive, and that's a much stronger point against her than anything else.
ARE. YOU. SERIOUS?!?! I'M A ROLEBLOCKER!!!
Even if I DO confirm that is my ability, that doesn't do jack for whether I'm town or not, and I know that.
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I was definitely scumhunting before I came under pressure by asking questions and probing, which is how I always scumhunt. Right now, all I have time to do is defend myself from all of this.
Oh, except that what you're referring to, when I stated at first that I was the lynch, was well before I had even claimed. Right? RIGHT?
Right.
So, tell me, IF I proved that I have this ability, which I absolutely can do, what would that prove to you?
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That's kind of the point. You had resigned yourself to being the lynch before you claimed - that's behavior befitting someone who has a weak or unprovable or vanilla claim.
Then you claim perma-roleblocker.
See my confusion?
Well, that ship may very well have sailed as a result of you screwing up the WC.
But, you didn't think in any way, shape, or form that someone getting a PM even if they fake claimed could have been remotely confirmable? Like random person X claims something outlandish, you drop your ability on it, and they confirm "hey, I did get targeted!"?
None of this occurred to you. I think it's because it's not your actual role.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Roleblocker is commonly a scum role.
Of course it occurred to me. What you are ignoring is that proving I have the ability I have does NOT confirm my alignment. I knew this when I GOT the role.
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It would prove you weren't lying about the ability - which is the first step.
I don't think you understand the level of skepticism I have for your claimed role based on its remarkable similarity to your RtA one. Granted, the WC thing overshadows that, but it's an extremely high level of skepticism, nonetheless.
All I can figure is that you might have taken that role (vanillizer), made up something 'impossibly' similar, and hoped to WIFOM your way out of this with GHS and RtA references included (the 'RAWR, WIFOM' post).
At the end of the day, I'm having an extremely hard time buying this coming from "Town Manders". More apologetic and demure (the bulk of the argument in Highlander, for example), less ANGRYANGRYANGRY would have been what I expected. But you went off the handle early and often. It doesn't compute.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Either you're going to let me prove to you I have the ability or you're not. Make your decision so we can move forward already because, as of now, we're at a VERY ANNOYING standstill.
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Sure, Highlanders been awhile, but "crap for meta"? I'd hardly say that. I had a step-by-step "watch it unfold" in-depth look at your scum play while modding Return to Amistaria. That wasn't so long ago.
That's not up to me entirely - I don't speak for everyone. It's worth public discussion even if I think you're a slam-dunk scum case.
I'll take a look.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm not Seppel. Don't compare me to other players.
You're ONLY comparing to scum meta. That's not how you analyze meta on someone and you know it.
You're the one leading this game.
While you're at it, how about you take a look at Ogre, Hecatea, or Red Dwarf, too?
You know, games I was actually in?
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No?
I don't see where her demonstrating this ability does a thing to "confirm" her. Which is not to say that I believe or disbelieve the claim. My inclinition is to believe the ability, because, shoot, who claims that kind of ability without being able to back it up? It's a freaking DAY ability. The target gets notified they've been hit. How do you bluff that? So I'm confused a little by your apparent position that she's just totally making it up. You can think she's scum for x,y,and z reasons. But being so convinced she's just lying about the claim itself is strange to me.
I've played with you as town twice (see below). I've read other games. I'm certainly not ignorant of how you play.
Well yeah, because I'm posting a ton. On purpose. And I'm spearheading a case on someone I think is scum. You and I make up over half the posts in this thread.
Do you recall that I replaced into one of those games? And that I read you correctly there as well as someone else based off their reactions to you?
EWP:
@Axel: If she can prove it that means she didn't make up the ability. Which I think she did because it's damn near a duplicate of her role from RtA - I thought I made that clear a few posts back?
I still can't compute her screwing up the WC short of just missing the sample PM. Seppel giving a townie "you don't know the standard win condition" when it's in the thread does not work for me.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Axel, will you be providing your thoughts on DYH soon? Because I KNOW he's either wrong or scum, and I'm really leaning scum because he's too good a player to be this stubborn and deluded regarding me.
I couldn't tell.
That's what happens when you go head to head with someone.
So? You were town there. All you're doing with this **** is convincing me more and more that you're scum. Because I most certainly AM town.
Hence my earlier statement which you called a dichotomy. Either you are wrong or you are scum. Dichotomy or not, it's absolutely correct, which you will see if/when I ever die.
Then talk to Seppel about it. Because, seriously, I provided precisely what is in my role PM.
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Obviously.
But this has no actual bearing on whether or not you think she is scum, right? What I'm asking is, if she "proved" this ability, and therefore "proved" this particular theory of your incorrect, would that change anything?
I'm thinking the answer is "no" and you'd still think she was scum anyway, but I wanted clarification.
I also do not understand this. I do not understand it from a scum mentality. I do not understand it is she's actually town. It makes no sense. Yes, she might have completely missed that there was a sample role PM and then, yes, she might have decided that (because she didn't "know" the actual wording) she was going to make something up to explain why she didn't know it - but this just seems really convoluted and unnecessary.
Probably not. Like I said, the ship already sailed in my opinion from the way she approached her role pre-claim. It literally makes no sense to me from a townie perspective. It doesn't make much sense from a scum perspective, granted, but for lack of a better way to put it, all I see with her claim is one giant ball of WIFOM she tried to drop on the thread. Go back and look at the "RAWR, WIFOM" post for her defense.
The Win Condition issue is just the clincher.
Right, but it seems absolutely idiotic for the mod to have included it, so I have to go with "scum made poor decision" versus "mod did something that makes no sense", because she wouldn't lie about it as a townie (in theory, barring AWC, etc.). This is Cyan's Impossible Mafia - not Bastard Mod Mafia.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Might this have something to do with it?
Because that's something the moderator would have done, not the scum, so I'm not sure I follow how that explains anything.
If you're looking for the deeper meaning of the game and how to idenfity scum based on flavor, well, that's the kind of stuff I like but you usually hate.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Because I don't know what to make of the whole WC stuff. As Axelrod pointed out it is weird no matter what. In my opinion I think at the end of the day this whole WC thing is sort of a waste of time as you are speaking Tamarian and our universal translators are "Shalak when the walls fell" (Had to go back and rewatch that episode after posting that video as it is one of my favorites). To translate though I don't think trying to figure out this WC thing will help us figure out whether you are scum or not.
I am voting you because as soon as you started to get some pressure you start flailing wildly and throwing anything you can at TFF hoping that something will stick and make people want to lynch him.
Well, this seems to give us two things.
1. We should expect some really weird, impossible-seeming things in this game.
2. We're supposed to kill those roles.
So with that in mind, does a wrong-win-condition-having, repeatable perma-blocker fit the bill as 'unbalanced-promoting' or 'impossible' to you? The WC definitely does for me (I've covered that not making sense multiple times now) - the claimed role itself, not so much; because once exposed, if town, the scum would make it a target and just lie about their abilities. Only really helps if the scum tell the truth to begin with.
On scum it has to be played very carefully - can't use it on too good of a power role, but can shut down questionable claimed townies. Could snipe a claimed good power role right before the end of day on a hammer vote post, but become the default lynch the next day.
Meh, the role sucks as claimed, if it's even real.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Anyway, regarding Az's assumptions, I'm not comfortable acting on any conclusions derived from them. It seems really unlikely to me that the scum all have unbalanced roles and the town all have balanced roles. That's a disaster of a game design.
Meh, I would think that'd get my attention in a hurry.
I certainly wouldn't advocate lynching anyone on a flavor assumption alone.
I was walking through the logic of the flavor being correct. I came to the conclusion that her role is plausible ("The claimed role; not so much [impossible]") yet I still think she's scum. So, you think that means I "bought it"? That's an odd conclusion to draw there, Az.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29