This entire post is just beautiful, and not just what I quoted. I didn't notice the interactions between Seppel and Tezz at first. So a possibility I'm entertaining is that Tezz and Seppel are a scumteam.
I no longer feel bad about voting Tezz. Vote: tezzeret12
I'm up to my elbows in posts in another game, which I STILL haven't finished, and now have to go afk for awhile, so....looks like I'll have more for you guys tomorrow.
I just want to point out that not everyone takes a FoS the same way which is even said in one of the stickied threads in the mafia forum. I personally don't care too much about FoS and am most likely to ignore them. So this IB/Tezz is not hitting me too hard. I'm gonna start getting involved in this heated battle in a bit (I think.)
For some reason, with the small amount of information we have, this seems like fishing to me and comes off really scummy.
With the limited information available, I still feel that Tezzeret12 is scum for attempting to start a bad wagon and hopping on another wagon as soon as it popped up.
IB. You make a a great case, but I too think that this was honest mistake at this point. The fact that you cannot drop it where everyone else has, but Ceej, who has not been present to much for the last few days, and Burstinatrix who questioned Giga about his PoV of everyone. Giga then says he thinks no one is scum is yet. That leads me to think the Burstinatrix is unsure of his vote at this point and just hasn't removed the vote due to either 1) Suspicion or 2)Forgot to remove vote. As for Seppel speaking about Tezz. I don't see enough evidence that Seppel is coming to defend Tezz. There was one post and Tezz somewhat overreacted to this, because he was attacked by multiple people, myself included.
This entire post is just beautiful, and not just what I quoted. I didn't notice the interactions between Seppel and Tezz at first. So a possibility I'm entertaining is that Tezz and Seppel are a scumteam.
I no longer feel bad about voting Tezz. Vote: tezzeret12
Seems like someone is looking for an out. You never bothered voting for Tezz when the case was first present, but now that IB made the huge post explaining, you now feel it is appropriate to vote. Why now and not then?
Oh, I'm not attacking you. In fact, I think you're town now based on how you're handling things. I'm just attempting to show you how stupid your wagon on me is.
You do see why that it could be interpreted as an attack?
I must say this game is extremely funny. I can't wait for the next round of arguments from both Tezz and IB.
This entire post is just beautiful, and not just what I quoted. I didn't notice the interactions between Seppel and Tezz at first. So a possibility I'm entertaining is that Tezz and Seppel are a scumteam.
I no longer feel bad about voting Tezz. Vote: tezzeret12
Wow. I did not read this post yesterday...
Despite my determination to stick to my guns, this post is suspicious, if not flattering.
I hope I don't regret this, but: unvote Tezzeret12; Vote Wheat_Grinder
Just so everyone knows, unless someone unvoted, that's L-1.
If I'm rando-hammered before I return, I apologize for being so scummy and costing the town a lynch. I just want it to be known; I do not like tezz, and if he's scum Seppel is also.
Had to get that out there in case I can only say Bah! later.
Did anybody actually supply five reasons as to why they think Wheat's scum like I asked?
Anyway, I'm still fairly certain that Wheat's town, which leads me to believe that Tezz is scum (there's lots of other stuff, too, but a lot of it is meaningless if Wheat ends up flipping scum). I'd rather we didn't lynch Wheat today, but if we do and he flips town, we better be lynching Tezz tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm still fairly certain that Wheat's town, which leads me to believe that Tezz is scum (there's lots of other stuff, too, but a lot of it is meaningless if Wheat ends up flipping scum). I'd rather we didn't lynch Wheat today, but if we do and he flips town, we better be lynching Tezz tomorrow.
Emphasis mine.
/barn the bolded statement so hard.
There is a lot of IB/Wheat interaction, It seems like either buddying or because I believe this was IB's first game, It may actually be a scum tell. But if Wheat actually is town then it leans that IB is town.
Wheat seems to be getting cornered here, and with good reason. His arguments are flawed, he claims people are scum then refuses to vote for them. Overall he seems very suspicious and scummy, and I would like him to claim.
Perhaps I'm naive but I would think scum would want to end the day and go to night ASAP if they were cornered, at L-1, no less. He's going to flip one way or the other.
Why do you think that? What do you think about LuckNorris who just /barned our work and laid down a vote?
Luck is the only person currently on this wagon that I could possibly imagine being scum.
I think it's somwhat suspicious, but considering his lack of activity, I could see how it might just be a quick post due to being prodded.
Why do you need five reasons? One should be enough and there's already two out there.
I've played with Wheat before. He is not this bad at Mafia.
Then why are you so convinced that he is mafia?
I look forward to seeing what Wheat has to say in his next post.
Responses underlined. LuckNorris quoted for posterity.
Why do you think that? What do you think about LuckNorris who just /barned our work and laid down a vote?
Luck is the only person currently on this wagon that I could possibly imagine being scum.
Why do you need five reasons? One should be enough and there's already two out there.
I've played with Wheat before. He is not this bad at Mafia.
I look forward to seeing what Wheat has to say in his next post.
Regarding the bolded section:
Early buddying between you and Tezz, with you coming in, effectively dismantling the wagon on him. I am still fairly certain that Tezz is scum and I believe there may be some buddying. If you'd like me to find the posts that indicated this to me, I will go back and do so.
/barn. I refuse to self-hammer, ever. Unless I'm a jester, which I probably never will be.
I've played with Wheat before. He is not this bad at Mafia.
1. Meta is bad.
2. Apparently you didn't read those games close enough. The only game I can point to that's not ongoing is Agatha Christie, but it's a good enough example. I scum slipped day 1 despite being town and just never got out of that. In fact, you were the one to vig me because of it all.
I look forward to seeing what Wheat has to say in his next post.
I don't know what you want me to respond to. Sorry to disappoint.
Let's avoid a random hammering. If Wheat were scum, he might have just voted himself...
Not necessarily. If he is scum, he knew I was coming today and rereading him, so I'm sure he wanted to see what I would say. We have plenty of time, so anything could happen. Scum don't usually just give up when there's still players to weigh in.
Did anybody actually supply five reasons as to why they think Wheat's scum like I asked?
Why are you not doing anything to show why he's town?
@ Seppel: I'm thinking akin to you and I in Amistaria, got me?
Anyway, I'm still fairly certain that Wheat's town, which leads me to believe that Tezz is scum (there's lots of other stuff, too, but a lot of it is meaningless if Wheat ends up flipping scum). I'd rather we didn't lynch Wheat today, but if we do and he flips town, we better be lynching Tezz tomorrow.
There are other people on his wagon, too. Why does it have to be him?
There is a lot of IB/Wheat interaction, It seems like either buddying or because I believe this was IB's first game, It may actually be a scum tell. But if Wheat actually is town then it leans that IB is town.
How so? How does Wheat flipping town lean to IB being town? He could easily be new scum buddying to appear more town. Common practice among new scum.
We're like bros at this point for being in so many games together.
Seeing how Burst is now somewhat defending Wheat now, one or both of them may be scum. If I had to guess right now, I'd say it's W_G just from this RVS post.
And don't tell me you can't glean anything from random votes. I've already provided two examples of how you can. That is not the only situation where you can.
1. Central is the best!
2. Posts by far. Meta can be useful sometimes, but almost always go for posts over meta.
3. The only game I've completed had me as Vanilla Town (Basic 45). And I can/will not comment on the others, so hard to say.
I'll bet by the time I finish this post, I can give a good idea of whether Wheat prefers post analysis or meta analysis, so him not really answering this simple question bothers me. He opts, instead, to subtly play the noob card.
I don't see why everyone's getting all uppity about GigaRage since we're still in RVS.
Especially since if you'll note I also OMGUS'd Burst.
Diminishing the purpose of the RVS and failing to recognize it had been over.
Wanting the RVS to last longer is generally a town tell since scum want to get to night. They always do.
Giga's votes seemed like a joke at first, but the way he pushed it and didn't unvote is a bit unsettling. Noted, but I don't think it's worth a vote yet.
Null since we don't know Giga's alignment, but since I think he's town so far, leaning town tell.
Only partially correct: Jesters do not exist in ANY games on this site.
Provides incorrect information. This is a problem because scum want to be helpful to the town since that's easier than trying to fake scumhunting and it fools people into thinking you're town.
You are being way too quick to create suspicion. FoS'ing is hardly jumping on a wagon, especially when he says that he was mistaken on the appearance of Jester roles.
If FoSing is not a big deal, as you imply with your statement about IB, why is tezzeret "way too quick to create suspicion" and worthy of a vote?
Also, why did you assume tezzeret was FoSing him for the fishing for a jester comment and not the "random" questions comment?
When Manders did it I thought it was still RVS and I never thought about it afterwards.
Wait, when Manders did what? I know tezzeret mentioned this first, but you have agreed that I did whatever he's saying I did, and I want to see you tell me what it is I supposedly did.
As to the second question, I feel that this is different because you caused suspicion over something that was a misunderstanding.
Again, why do you assume he's only FoSing for the jester situation?
And that is because the toothpaste, once it leaves the tube, cannot be reinserted easily. Once the slip has been made, it has been made.
Even after IB said it was a mistake hours before you posted?
You continue to operate under the impression that IB said nothing of the "random questions" in his post where he FoSed Ceej, which is what tezz FoSed him for.
-- town points
Yes, perfect for trying to stir up some suspicion.
You again state that FoS means something, but you previously said it meant nothing when IB did it. (Not an exact quote, so don't come at me saying "I never said it meant nothing! Rabble rabble. You implied it.)
Aaaaand even more ad hom.
Since the slip, all you've been doing is flailing and using ad hom.
UnFoSing is rare. That's because it isn't like a vote; you can FoS everyone if you want.
Null
Yes, and we're voting you for creating suspicion where there should not be any.
Seppel's right about this. It is a firm statement that there should not be any suspicion on IB. As if you KNOW he's town. You could only know that if you are scum.
Plus, flail...
to quote the great Pale Mage
QUOTES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
...and ad hom.
You should go read a tezz scum game. He's less likely to ad hom as he has here because he KNOWS they know how to read and play the game. After all, they're onto him.
There should not be any suspicion due to something that is obviously a misunderstanding; IB just wasn't aware of that particular facet of how games run on MTGS. That isn't to say that things IB does later will be given a free ride of course, just that Tezz was trying to create suspicion for something that is a misunderstanding ONLY.
Allow me to explain this clearer.
IB provided TWO reasons when he FoSed Ceej. One he barned me on and one he misunderstood. Tezzeret did not specify which one, or both, he was FoSing IB for. Why did you assume it was just the misunderstanding and not just the other or both?
No. We think you're scum because you took a situation in which someone was obviously mistaken and tried to rouse suspicion over it.
The reason he suspected him. I suppose it makes sense to unvote since the original reason was debunked, but he states he has new reason to suspect tezz. It shouldn't matter how the wagon got started. If your suspect has responded badly to pressure, there should be no reason to unvote, even if the original reason for suspecting them is dis-proven. Yet he did. Why? Because he knows that his analysis of tezz's reactions are not scum tells.
Ok. Basically what happened is that I saw you FoS IB, which I thought was over his FoSing of Ceej for thinking he had a jester tell, which was a misconception.
Then when you kept saying it was because he was following Manders I thought it was because Manders said something about a jester tell, but I never looked back to make sure, and your ad hom had sealed the deal for me.
But when you said it the last time without the ad hom, I finally decided to look back and realized I was mistaken the whole time.
I still don't like the ad hom, but my reasoning for voting you was total bull.
And yes, looking back WAS partly because Seppel was on my case, because I know that when Seppel is on your case, you screwed something up.
I'm confused as to what was partially because Seppel was on your case.
LOL at you guys being scared of him, though. He's a big ol ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ. (Ok, not actually a big guy, but a ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ nonetheless. :p)
Your explanation leaves much to be desired, though. I don't see how you could have thought I said something about the jester tell. Know what I did say about a jester? That they're allowed on the site. Unlike you and others.
I backed off because I realized my whole case against him was bogus. While I probably should be voting for him still since no one else really seems scummy to me right now, I feel bad about doing so because I led a wagon on him for a mistake on my part.
Forget the feeling bad part Seppel latched on to. You realized your whole case was bogus? When was this? When you unvoted, you said he was still scummy for flailing and ad hom. That's part of the whole case, you know.
It's Agatha Christie all over again. At the start of that one I had trouble getting any scum reads either, and when I did it was on a townie.
I also put my foot in my mouth big time in that game too and eventually got killed for it.
Woe is me tell.
-- town points
Manders is neutral to me, leaning just a few tics towards scum for breadcrumbing her vote on Ceej
Why does that make you lean towards scum?
I don't quite understand what you're saying here?
Did he explain this? Cause what he's saying is that even if tezz did mean to FoS him for the jester tell, he was obviously misunderstanding something because that was null, yet you jumped on him for it.
Refusing to repeat yourself to clarify for someone who suspects you. Meh. Not really a tell, I just don't like it. IMO, townies should be willing to repeat themselves as often as needed in an attempt to save themselves. Scum don't want to do so because they could, unintentionally, change their story and shoot themselves in the foot.
As with any tell, though, there are exceptions to that "rule". Iso's one of them. He just hates repeating himself period.
I do feel bad about leading a wagon on him! I voted him over a gigantic misunderstanding!
You feel bad about doing to him exactly what you accused him of. Hmm.
Probably deserved.
Mildly defeatist.
My history of having to claim in basics will continue for this one too, it would seem, at this rate.
Flavor: I used to be the main bad guy, until I realized that what I fought for was corrupted, and my father incorrect. No one believed me, but I proved myself and as the Fire Lord I strive to help Aang protect the world.
This entire post is just beautiful, and not just what I quoted. I didn't notice the interactions between Seppel and Tezz at first. So a possibility I'm entertaining is that Tezz and Seppel are a scumteam.
I no longer feel bad about voting Tezz. Vote: tezzeret12
Why did you never re-read tezzeret if you were so convinced he was scum?
Just so everyone knows, unless someone unvoted, that's L-1.
If I'm rando-hammered before I return, I apologize for being so scummy and costing the town a lynch. I just want it to be known; I do not like tezz, and if he's scum Seppel is also.
Had to get that out there in case I can only say Bah! later.
Defeatist as well.
I'll withhold voting until he responds, but consider my vote on him anyway.
1) No. Cornered scum want to claim. If they can squeak out a vanilla claim, they'll do it. If they expect to be going down, they'll claim a power role and hope to get people off their back. And at worst, they'll get a townie to counterclaim (who can then be roleblocked/killed at night). The only advantage to self-hammering is when you want to suppress the spread of information, like night actions, etc. That isn't the case here.
2) If it was a quick post, he clearly read the entire thread. His response is conscious, as if he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's read the in-thread material.
3) When I said "he is not this bad at Mafia," I meant the game Mafia, not the alignment "mafia."
Responses underlined. LuckNorris quoted for posterity.
Please review how I made the re-reading case of Wheat_Grinder and do that. Putting your responses into the quotes of another player makes your statements very difficult to quote. I, for one, refuse to acknowledge posts made as such towards myself.
Regarding the bolded section:
Early buddying between you and Tezz, with you coming in, effectively dismantling the wagon on him. I am still fairly certain that Tezz is scum and I believe there may be some buddying. If you'd like me to find the posts that indicated this to me, I will go back and do so.
2) If it was a quick post, he clearly read the entire thread. His response is conscious, as if he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's read the in-thread material.
You should go read a tezz scum game. He's less likely to ad hom as he has here because he KNOWS they know how to read and play the game. After all, they're onto him.
1) No. Cornered scum want to claim. If they can squeak out a vanilla claim, they'll do it. If they expect to be going down, they'll claim a power role and hope to get people off their back. And at worst, they'll get a townie to counterclaim (who can then be roleblocked/killed at night). The only advantage to self-hammering is when you want to suppress the spread of information, like night actions, etc. That isn't the case here.
2) If it was a quick post, he clearly read the entire thread. His response is conscious, as if he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's read the in-thread material.
3) When I said "he is not this bad at Mafia," I meant the game Mafia, not the alignment "mafia."
1) I suppose that makes sense.
2) Even so, I'm willing to forgive his brevity. Perhaps that's a mistake on my part.
3) Roger that.
Please review how I made the re-reading case of Wheat_Grinder and do that. Putting your responses into the quotes of another player makes your statements very difficult to quote. I, for one, refuse to acknowledge posts made as such towards myself.
Seeing how Burst is now somewhat defending Wheat now, one or both of them may be scum. If I had to guess right now, I'd say it's W_G just from this RVS post.
Fair enough. But every game I've been in he's been in, which is why I said that.
And don't tell me you can't glean anything from random votes. I've already provided two examples of how you can. That is not the only situation where you can.
Also fair, and probably something I should pay attention to in the future.
I'll bet by the time I finish this post, I can give a good idea of whether Wheat prefers post analysis or meta analysis, so him not really answering this simple question bothers me. He opts, instead, to subtly play the noob card.
- town points
Well, it's true. I haven't played many roles yet. Once I finish up more games, I'll have a bigger repertoire and can answer better in future games.
Diminishing the purpose of the RVS and failing to recognize it had been over.
Wanting the RVS to last longer is generally a town tell since scum want to get to night. They always do.
+ town points for Wheat
No response needed.
Offers no analysis of his own on anyone.
- town points
Yeah, I really hated to do that but I had no good reads yet and didn't want RVS votes muddling things up.
Barns LN stating this:
Null since we don't know Giga's alignment, but since I think he's town so far, leaning town tell.
So...where are you going with this?
Provides incorrect information. This is a problem because scum want to be helpful to the town since that's easier than trying to fake scumhunting and it fools people into thinking you're town.
- town points
That was my impression, that there weren't jesters at all on this site. And I generally try to provide information where I can in any game.
If FoSing is not a big deal, as you imply with your statement about IB, why is tezzeret "way too quick to create suspicion" and worthy of a vote?
I never said it wasn't a big deal, just that it wasn't as big a deal as jumping on a wagon. And I voted him because he seemed scummy to me for trying to stir up suspicion over a misunderstanding of roles on IB's part.
Also, why did you assume tezzeret was FoSing him for the fishing for a jester comment and not the "random" questions comment?
I'm not actually sure why I assumed that. I might have missed that one part.
Wait, when Manders did what? I know tezzeret mentioned this first, but you have agreed that I did whatever he's saying I did, and I want to see you tell me what it is I supposedly did.
It shames me to say this but I forgot what you had said and stupidly just assumed you...did something, can't remember what.
Again, why do you assume he's only FoSing for the jester situation?
Because I never looked back to reread what was actually said.
Here are my exacts comments from that vote:
Please tell me what part of that leads you to believe it was a random vote?
I skimmed the first line and the bottom line made me assume that in a previous game he had done something and you were voting him in RVS for passive-aggressive revenge.
No, there was a defining moment when the RVS stopped. Please go find it and quote it for me.
I have class in a half hour or so; later tonight I'll go and try to find it if you don't mind waiting.
Blatant buddying, especially since he's voting for him and goes on to say this:
Making a joke=/=buddying. I do not think this point is fair at all.
You are stating these as if they are proof he is scum. Why do you think ad hom is solely a scum tell?
OK you got me. I usually think ad hom is a scum tell because I tend to think that scum would overreact more than town. This isn't correct of course, just look at Yanni in any game with Yanni. It's one of those things I have a hard time getting around.
This is the reason you think he is scum. This is all you've said, other than adhom. Note this everyone. It will come up again.
Noted.
You continue to operate under the impression that IB said nothing of the "random questions" in his post where he FoSed Ceej, which is what tezz FoSed him for.
-- town points
And that's because that WAS my impression.
You again state that FoS means something, but you previously said it meant nothing when IB did it. (Not an exact quote, so don't come at me saying "I never said it meant nothing! Rabble rabble. You implied it.)
I already answered this earlier, and I actually did say something like you told me not to but I'm not going to go back up and change it, sorry.
Show me the flailing.
Once again, after class. If I fail to post it, hold me to it.
Null
Yep.
Seppel's right about this. It is a firm statement that there should not be any suspicion on IB. As if you KNOW he's town. You could only know that if you are scum.
Yeah, it was a mistype on my part. I meant there should not be any suspicion there for IB's jester thing, which remember is what I assumed tezz was FoS'ing IB for.
to quote the great Pale Mage
QUOTES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
It's coming, it's coming.
You should go read a tezz scum game. He's less likely to ad hom as he has here because he KNOWS they know how to read and play the game. After all, they're onto him.
I'll go back and reskim Agatha Christie. I think he was scum there.
Allow me to explain this clearer.
IB provided TWO reasons when he FoSed Ceej. One he barned me on and one he misunderstood. Tezzeret did not specify which one, or both, he was FoSing IB for. Why did you assume it was just the misunderstanding and not just the other or both?
Because that was the part I paid attention to.
Wow. Remember this?
All to well unfortunately.
The reason he suspected him. I suppose it makes sense to unvote since the original reason was debunked, but he states he has new reason to suspect tezz. It shouldn't matter how the wagon got started. If your suspect has responded badly to pressure, there should be no reason to unvote, even if the original reason for suspecting them is dis-proven. Yet he did. Why? Because he knows that his analysis of tezz's reactions are not scum tells.
That was a part of it also, hence LEANING scum only. I didn't like the ad hom, but ad hom isn't enough like you said.
I'm confused as to what was partially because Seppel was on your case.
Going back and reading what actually happened there is what happened because Seppel was on my case.
LOL at you guys being scared of him, though. He's a big ol ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ. (Ok, not actually a big guy, but a ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ nonetheless. :p)
He's a mother bear and the scum stole his cubs.
Your explanation leaves much to be desired, though. I don't see how you could have thought I said something about the jester tell. Know what I did say about a jester? That they're allowed on the site. Unlike you and others.
I never looked back to see what you said and I just assumed.
Forget the feeling bad part Seppel latched on to. You realized your whole case was bogus? When was this? When you unvoted, you said he was still scummy for flailing and ad hom. That's part of the whole case, you know.
Fair point.
Woe is me tell.
-- town points
Yeah...
Why does that make you lean towards scum?
Because it's not a straight up explanation, it just sends people around and around. Only a few ticks because I've seen it done as a teaching moment before.
Did he explain this? Cause what he's saying is that even if tezz did mean to FoS him for the jester tell, he was obviously misunderstanding something because that was null, yet you jumped on him for it.
It was ironic to Seppel.
Okay I guess.
Refusing to repeat yourself to clarify for someone who suspects you. Meh. Not really a tell, I just don't like it. IMO, townies should be willing to repeat themselves as often as needed in an attempt to save themselves. Scum don't want to do so because they could, unintentionally, change their story and shoot themselves in the foot.
Well, when you say the same things over and over again it does start to wear you down...I usually try not to say that though because it's inconvenient for everyone else.
As with any tell, though, there are exceptions to that "rule". Iso's one of them. He just hates repeating himself period.
Yep.
You feel bad about doing to him exactly what you accused him of. Hmm.
What's that hmm for?
Mildly defeatist.
I generally am when I'm at L-2 or L-1, unfortunately.
Woe is me again.
I don't like to do it and yet I do.
Does nothing to clear him.
I agree, because it's a claim.
Why did you never re-read tezzeret if you were so convinced he was scum?
That would have been a really good idea but I just never worked up the energy to.
Defeatist as well.
Yeah, but for this one I wanted to get in my opinion just in case I got hammered while in class. I've seen it happen before.
I'll withhold voting until he responds, but consider my vote on him anyway.
So you still think he's scum, but because you didn't, you're backing off of him completely and not putting forth any more effort to (1) find a better reason to vote him, nor (2) have a better candidate to vote. He's still leaning scum to you, so if you're unvoting him, then you clearly have a better scum candidate prepared, right? Oh, you don't? Who else have you bothered to give an opinion on? Let's find out:
Yet you have no followup on either of those two people, nor any commentary on anyone else.
"We think you're scum because you took a situation in which someone was obviously mistaken and tried to rouse suspicion over it."
Die please.
Still not great reasoning, but about as good as my reasoning on Tezz.
Why do you need five reasons? One should be enough and there's already two out there.
One reason, especially when it's not something that obviously makes someone scum, doesn't make enough of a case to lynch someone. I'd be less hesitant on lynching Wheat if I didn't know his meta and people had more than one or two reasons as to why they think he's scum, but at the moment, his case is just a bunch of barning and not a lot of legitimate reasons.
Is this normally done? I assumed that people were meant to prove why the person they think is scum is scum, not the other way around.
Yes, and I refuse to believe you've never seen anyone make a case on why someone is town. It happens pretty frequently. Not as much as cases to show why someone is scum, but they do happen. Just repeatedly saying someone is town doesn't do anything productive.
Yes, and I refuse to believe you've never seen anyone make a case on why someone is town. It happens pretty frequently. Not as much as cases to show why someone is scum, but they do happen. Just repeatedly saying someone is town doesn't do anything productive.
I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a case made on why someone is town, but if it's not unusual to do like you say, then I have no problem creating one as to why I think that Wheat is town. It will probably be based largely on meta and a few other things (most which rely on Tezz/Seppel being scum...), but there are a few things that are neither meta nor based on Tezz/Seppel's alliance that I think should get my point across.
But, yeah, I'll post them later. Currently at school and don't have the time to do it now.
As to why immediately after Seppel jumped on Wheat, did I also, because:
a. I had suspicions before, but I didn't trust my own reads enough as he was attacking me, and I did in some ways understand the points Wheat was making, but he was still ignoring everything else.
b. I would have been myslynched for an OMGUS vote before.
c. How right after Seppel pressured him, Wheat backed off immediately.
That's fair, particularly your third point. But can we not neglect that me jumping on Ceej immediately after Manders is the very reason that you FoSed me?
If you're trying to imply I should claim, I did so already. Zuko, VT, no abilities, win when rebels are dead, flavor something along the lines of I was once a bad guy but now I fight for Aang as the Fire Lord when I realized my purpose and father was/were corrupt.
I know nothing of this of this show (Avatar the, Airbender), nor nothing of the flavor of the show. I also no nothing on how the flavor in the game will be but claiming to be a previous bad guy seems weird (unless this actually happened in the show)... I don't really like his claim but I don't want to mislynch a townie in case. What do people think on Wheats claim?
I know nothing of this of this show (Avatar the, Airbender), nor nothing of the flavor of the show. I also no nothing on how the flavor in the game will be but claiming to be a previous bad guy seems weird (unless this actually happened in the show)... I don't really like his claim but I don't want to mislynch a townie in case. What do people think on Wheats claim?
The fact that both missed the post makes me believe that both could be town. As stated previously, scum tends to read everything, so they confuse don't their stories, as they have more on the line then town does.
What I said was that I don't think the claim is true. But since I have no knowledge of this show, I don't really know if he becomes aligned with the protagonist (Which I presume is that bald kid). So I want to know if he actually does become a good aligned character in the show. My post specifically states I don't believe the claim and thus I am asking for the people that know what happens In the series to let me know if he does change sides, or just ends up being destroyed/prisoned/escaped... Etc.
EBWODP: In other words, his vanilla claim should be treated like a vanilla claim and you should ignore all flavor that came with it. If you're really basing whether you should lynch him or not on flavor, then you should replace out right now.
Flavor: I used to be the main bad guy, until I realized that what I fought for was corrupted, and my father incorrect. No one believed me, but I proved myself and as the Fire Lord I strive to help Aang protect the world.
This entire post is just beautiful, and not just what I quoted. I didn't notice the interactions between Seppel and Tezz at first. So a possibility I'm entertaining is that Tezz and Seppel are a scumteam.
I no longer feel bad about voting Tezz. Vote: tezzeret12
So after someone points out that Seppel's defending Tezz, you suddenly have a reason to vote him.
Wheat seems to be getting cornered here, and with good reason. His arguments are flawed, he claims people are scum then refuses to vote for them. Overall he seems very suspicious and scummy, and I would like him to claim.
Vote: Wheat_Grinder
That added nothing new...
Happen to have any original thoughts to add?
B) Come up with at least five reasons as to why you think he's scum. If you can't do this, unvote him, as you don't have sufficient evidence to think that he's scum.
If you ever actually have five distinct reasons, then you're most likely tunnelvisioning and should stop it.
In Return to Amistaria, Arcadic made this post. I was his buddy, so I knew he was scum, but it's still a scum going out of their way to justify random statements/votes.
In Basic #40, Yanni made this post. I, as LairyFights, called him out on it. He was lynched D1 and was scum. I was town.
I'm sure there are more examples, but those are the top two from memory.
I believe that's a different tell - use of a random number generator in order to have no connection to anyone else. They're afraid they'll call out their buddies, which can be looked back at later.
Actually, any use of a random number generator should be looked at. It has no place in a game of logic.
I know nothing of this of this show (Avatar the, Airbender), nor nothing of the flavor of the show. I also no nothing on how the flavor in the game will be but claiming to be a previous bad guy seems weird (unless this actually happened in the show)... I don't really like his claim but I don't want to mislynch a townie in case. What do people think on Wheats claim?
What's preventing you from looking it up? Nothing.
@Wheat_Grinder:
And you think he's scum. What's the problem?
Good grief I've explained that enough at this point.
Null. Standard VT claim.
Yep.
So after someone points out that Seppel's defending Tezz, you suddenly have a reason to vote him.
This is after you already think Tezz is scummy.
Forgive me if I'm skeptical.
Yeah yeah I know.
Why does tezz being scum mean Seppel must be scum?
Seppel + Tezz interactions. Seppel saves Tezz and Tezz proposes votecounts which Seppel gets on board. Doesn't necessarily mean he's scum, just really really likely.
Yeah, it was a mistype on my part. I meant there should not be any suspicion there for IB's jester thing, which remember is what I assumed tezz was FoS'ing IB for.
WG here is trying to claim a mistype here, but why does it take him so long to try and correct situation? Shouldn't he have corrected it directly after the orignal post? Things like this are making me believe that he scum indeed and therefore should be lynched.
I know nothing of this of this show (Avatar the, Airbender), nor nothing of the flavor of the show. I also no nothing on how the flavor in the game will be but claiming to be a previous bad guy seems weird (unless this actually happened in the show)... I don't really like his claim but I don't want to mislynch a townie in case. What do people think on Wheats claim?
What I said was that I don't think the claim is true. But since I have no knowledge of this show, I don't really know if he becomes aligned with the protagonist (Which I presume is that bald kid). So I want to know if he actually does become a good aligned character in the show. My post specifically states I don't believe the claim and thus I am asking for the people that know what happens In the series to let me know if he does change sides, or just ends up being destroyed/prisoned/escaped... Etc.
EBWODP: In other words, his vanilla claim should be treated like a vanilla claim and you should ignore all flavor that came with it. If you're really basing whether you should lynch him or not on flavor, then you should replace out right now.
@Manders:
I believe that's a different tell - use of a random number generator in order to have no connection to anyone else. They're afraid they'll call out their buddies, which can be looked back at later.
True, but I think going out of your way to justify the randomness of your comments falls under the same category.
Actually, any use of a random number generator should be looked at. It has no place in a game of logic.
Eh, during RVS, I use it, too. I just don't proclaim I've done so...unless it makes me vote myself, haha.
Compare it to the actual series after you've watched the series.
I intend to. I watched the movie first so I could get a feeling for what's going on, to be more into the show when I started. It worked.
After rereading some of Wheat's posts, I realized my entire argument is based on meta and if Tezz is actually scum. So, realistically, I don't have any real reasons as to why I think Wheat's town.
After rereading some of Wheat's posts, I realized my entire argument is based on meta and if Tezz is actually scum. So, realistically, I don't have any real reasons as to why I think Wheat's town.
Mhm.
IGMEOY
Vote: Wheat_Grinder since tezz apparently really is unvoting over a vanilla claim.
Considering there's at least 40 notable characters in the series, this comes as no surprise.
PFFFFFFFFFTT AHAHAHAHAH
HE NO LONGER FEELS BAD
ABOUT VOTING TEZZ
AFTER SOMEONE ELSE
GIVES HIM A REASON TO VOTE TEZZ
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
god this is beautiful
I'm up to my elbows in posts in another game, which I STILL haven't finished, and now have to go afk for awhile, so....looks like I'll have more for you guys tomorrow.
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I lol'd
IB. You make a a great case, but I too think that this was honest mistake at this point. The fact that you cannot drop it where everyone else has, but Ceej, who has not been present to much for the last few days, and Burstinatrix who questioned Giga about his PoV of everyone. Giga then says he thinks no one is scum is yet. That leads me to think the Burstinatrix is unsure of his vote at this point and just hasn't removed the vote due to either 1) Suspicion or 2)Forgot to remove vote. As for Seppel speaking about Tezz. I don't see enough evidence that Seppel is coming to defend Tezz. There was one post and Tezz somewhat overreacted to this, because he was attacked by multiple people, myself included.
Seems like someone is looking for an out. You never bothered voting for Tezz when the case was first present, but now that IB made the huge post explaining, you now feel it is appropriate to vote. Why now and not then?
You do see why that it could be interpreted as an attack?
I must say this game is extremely funny. I can't wait for the next round of arguments from both Tezz and IB.
Wow. I did not read this post yesterday...
Despite my determination to stick to my guns, this post is suspicious, if not flattering.
I hope I don't regret this, but:
unvote Tezzeret12; Vote Wheat_Grinder
If I'm rando-hammered before I return, I apologize for being so scummy and costing the town a lynch. I just want it to be known; I do not like tezz, and if he's scum Seppel is also.
Had to get that out there in case I can only say Bah! later.
Let's avoid a random hammering. If Wheat were scum, he might have just voted himself...
Anyway, I'm still fairly certain that Wheat's town, which leads me to believe that Tezz is scum (there's lots of other stuff, too, but a lot of it is meaningless if Wheat ends up flipping scum). I'd rather we didn't lynch Wheat today, but if we do and he flips town, we better be lynching Tezz tomorrow.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
Emphasis mine.
/barn the bolded statement so hard.
Why would he do that?
Why do you think that? What do you think about LuckNorris who just /barned our work and laid down a vote?
Luck is the only person currently on this wagon that I could possibly imagine being scum.
Why do you need five reasons? One should be enough and there's already two out there.
I've played with Wheat before. He is not this bad at Mafia.
I look forward to seeing what Wheat has to say in his next post.
Responses underlined. LuckNorris quoted for posterity.
Regarding the bolded section:
Early buddying between you and Tezz, with you coming in, effectively dismantling the wagon on him. I am still fairly certain that Tezz is scum and I believe there may be some buddying. If you'd like me to find the posts that indicated this to me, I will go back and do so.
/barn. I refuse to self-hammer, ever. Unless I'm a jester, which I probably never will be.
1. Meta is bad.
2. Apparently you didn't read those games close enough. The only game I can point to that's not ongoing is Agatha Christie, but it's a good enough example. I scum slipped day 1 despite being town and just never got out of that. In fact, you were the one to vig me because of it all.
I don't know what you want me to respond to. Sorry to disappoint.
Not necessarily. If he is scum, he knew I was coming today and rereading him, so I'm sure he wanted to see what I would say. We have plenty of time, so anything could happen. Scum don't usually just give up when there's still players to weigh in.
Why are you not doing anything to show why he's town?
@ Seppel: I'm thinking akin to you and I in Amistaria, got me?
There are other people on his wagon, too. Why does it have to be him?
How so? How does Wheat flipping town lean to IB being town? He could easily be new scum buddying to appear more town. Common practice among new scum.
Re-reading Wheat_Grinder
Seeing how Burst is now somewhat defending Wheat now, one or both of them may be scum. If I had to guess right now, I'd say it's W_G just from this RVS post.
And don't tell me you can't glean anything from random votes. I've already provided two examples of how you can. That is not the only situation where you can.
I'll bet by the time I finish this post, I can give a good idea of whether Wheat prefers post analysis or meta analysis, so him not really answering this simple question bothers me. He opts, instead, to subtly play the noob card.
- town points
Diminishing the purpose of the RVS and failing to recognize it had been over.
Wanting the RVS to last longer is generally a town tell since scum want to get to night. They always do.
+ town points for Wheat
Offers no analysis of his own on anyone.
- town points
Barns LN stating this:
Null since we don't know Giga's alignment, but since I think he's town so far, leaning town tell.
Provides incorrect information. This is a problem because scum want to be helpful to the town since that's easier than trying to fake scumhunting and it fools people into thinking you're town.
- town points
If FoSing is not a big deal, as you imply with your statement about IB, why is tezzeret "way too quick to create suspicion" and worthy of a vote?
Also, why did you assume tezzeret was FoSing him for the fishing for a jester comment and not the "random" questions comment?
Wait, when Manders did what? I know tezzeret mentioned this first, but you have agreed that I did whatever he's saying I did, and I want to see you tell me what it is I supposedly did.
Again, why do you assume he's only FoSing for the jester situation?
Here are my exacts comments from that vote:
Please tell me what part of that leads you to believe it was a random vote?
No, there was a defining moment when the RVS stopped. Please go find it and quote it for me.
Blatant buddying, especially since he's voting for him and goes on to say this:
You are stating these as if they are proof he is scum. Why do you think ad hom is solely a scum tell?
This is the reason you think he is scum. This is all you've said, other than adhom. Note this everyone. It will come up again.
You continue to operate under the impression that IB said nothing of the "random questions" in his post where he FoSed Ceej, which is what tezz FoSed him for.
-- town points
You again state that FoS means something, but you previously said it meant nothing when IB did it. (Not an exact quote, so don't come at me saying "I never said it meant nothing! Rabble rabble. You implied it.)
Show me the flailing.
Null
Seppel's right about this. It is a firm statement that there should not be any suspicion on IB. As if you KNOW he's town. You could only know that if you are scum.
to quote the great Pale Mage
QUOTES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
You should go read a tezz scum game. He's less likely to ad hom as he has here because he KNOWS they know how to read and play the game. After all, they're onto him.
Allow me to explain this clearer.
IB provided TWO reasons when he FoSed Ceej. One he barned me on and one he misunderstood. Tezzeret did not specify which one, or both, he was FoSing IB for. Why did you assume it was just the misunderstanding and not just the other or both?
Wow. Remember this?
The reason he suspected him. I suppose it makes sense to unvote since the original reason was debunked, but he states he has new reason to suspect tezz. It shouldn't matter how the wagon got started. If your suspect has responded badly to pressure, there should be no reason to unvote, even if the original reason for suspecting them is dis-proven. Yet he did. Why? Because he knows that his analysis of tezz's reactions are not scum tells.
I'm confused as to what was partially because Seppel was on your case.
LOL at you guys being scared of him, though. He's a big ol ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ. (Ok, not actually a big guy, but a ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ nonetheless. :p)
Your explanation leaves much to be desired, though. I don't see how you could have thought I said something about the jester tell. Know what I did say about a jester? That they're allowed on the site. Unlike you and others.
Forget the feeling bad part Seppel latched on to. You realized your whole case was bogus? When was this? When you unvoted, you said he was still scummy for flailing and ad hom. That's part of the whole case, you know.
Woe is me tell.
-- town points
Why does that make you lean towards scum?
Did he explain this? Cause what he's saying is that even if tezz did mean to FoS him for the jester tell, he was obviously misunderstanding something because that was null, yet you jumped on him for it.
It was ironic to Seppel.
Refusing to repeat yourself to clarify for someone who suspects you. Meh. Not really a tell, I just don't like it. IMO, townies should be willing to repeat themselves as often as needed in an attempt to save themselves. Scum don't want to do so because they could, unintentionally, change their story and shoot themselves in the foot.
As with any tell, though, there are exceptions to that "rule". Iso's one of them. He just hates repeating himself period.
You feel bad about doing to him exactly what you accused him of. Hmm.
Mildly defeatist.
Woe is me again.
Does nothing to clear him.
Why did you never re-read tezzeret if you were so convinced he was scum?
Defeatist as well.
I'll withhold voting until he responds, but consider my vote on him anyway.
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2) If it was a quick post, he clearly read the entire thread. His response is conscious, as if he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's read the in-thread material.
3) When I said "he is not this bad at Mafia," I meant the game Mafia, not the alignment "mafia."
Please review how I made the re-reading case of Wheat_Grinder and do that. Putting your responses into the quotes of another player makes your statements very difficult to quote. I, for one, refuse to acknowledge posts made as such towards myself.
I would like to see this, yes.
Good point. Noted.
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to Manders.
Uh, I don't, sorry.
1) I suppose that makes sense.
2) Even so, I'm willing to forgive his brevity. Perhaps that's a mistake on my part.
3) Roger that.
1) Will do so in the future. Thank you.
2) I'll go find some right now then.
Fair enough. But every game I've been in he's been in, which is why I said that.
Also fair, and probably something I should pay attention to in the future.
Well, it's true. I haven't played many roles yet. Once I finish up more games, I'll have a bigger repertoire and can answer better in future games.
No response needed.
Yeah, I really hated to do that but I had no good reads yet and didn't want RVS votes muddling things up.
So...where are you going with this?
That was my impression, that there weren't jesters at all on this site. And I generally try to provide information where I can in any game.
I never said it wasn't a big deal, just that it wasn't as big a deal as jumping on a wagon. And I voted him because he seemed scummy to me for trying to stir up suspicion over a misunderstanding of roles on IB's part.
I'm not actually sure why I assumed that. I might have missed that one part.
It shames me to say this but I forgot what you had said and stupidly just assumed you...did something, can't remember what.
Because I never looked back to reread what was actually said.
I skimmed the first line and the bottom line made me assume that in a previous game he had done something and you were voting him in RVS for passive-aggressive revenge.
I have class in a half hour or so; later tonight I'll go and try to find it if you don't mind waiting.
Making a joke=/=buddying. I do not think this point is fair at all.
OK you got me. I usually think ad hom is a scum tell because I tend to think that scum would overreact more than town. This isn't correct of course, just look at Yanni in any game with Yanni. It's one of those things I have a hard time getting around.
Noted.
And that's because that WAS my impression.
I already answered this earlier, and I actually did say something like you told me not to but I'm not going to go back up and change it, sorry.
Once again, after class. If I fail to post it, hold me to it.
Yep.
Yeah, it was a mistype on my part. I meant there should not be any suspicion there for IB's jester thing, which remember is what I assumed tezz was FoS'ing IB for.
It's coming, it's coming.
I'll go back and reskim Agatha Christie. I think he was scum there.
Allow me to explain this clearer.
Because that was the part I paid attention to.
All to well unfortunately.
That was a part of it also, hence LEANING scum only. I didn't like the ad hom, but ad hom isn't enough like you said.
Going back and reading what actually happened there is what happened because Seppel was on my case.
He's a mother bear and the scum stole his cubs.
I never looked back to see what you said and I just assumed.
Fair point.
Yeah...
Because it's not a straight up explanation, it just sends people around and around. Only a few ticks because I've seen it done as a teaching moment before.
Okay I guess.
Well, when you say the same things over and over again it does start to wear you down...I usually try not to say that though because it's inconvenient for everyone else.
Yep.
What's that hmm for?
I generally am when I'm at L-2 or L-1, unfortunately.
I don't like to do it and yet I do.
I agree, because it's a claim.
That would have been a really good idea but I just never worked up the energy to.
Yeah, but for this one I wanted to get in my opinion just in case I got hammered while in class. I've seen it happen before.
Thanks for withholding.
Not necessarily a tell, perhaps a reference to another game.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm still not getting something here. Why would Tezz be complaining unless he was scum?
------------------------------------------------
Buddying.
-------------------------------------------------
Once the wagon forms (Seppel starting the vote with minimal reasoning for voting) Tezz jumps on it.
-----------------------------------------
Still not great reasoning, but about as good as my reasoning on Tezz.
-------------------------------------------------
Pushing the wagon hard here.
Not the strongest evidence, I'll admit. But all in all, there seems to be a good bit of buddying between Seppel and Tezz and perhaps some planning.
One reason, especially when it's not something that obviously makes someone scum, doesn't make enough of a case to lynch someone. I'd be less hesitant on lynching Wheat if I didn't know his meta and people had more than one or two reasons as to why they think he's scum, but at the moment, his case is just a bunch of barning and not a lot of legitimate reasons.
Is this normally done? I assumed that people were meant to prove why the person they think is scum is scum, not the other way around.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
I was scum, declared repeatedly you were town, but never tried to convince anyone else.
Remember? You called me scum for it.
I aim to please.
Yes, and I refuse to believe you've never seen anyone make a case on why someone is town. It happens pretty frequently. Not as much as cases to show why someone is scum, but they do happen. Just repeatedly saying someone is town doesn't do anything productive.
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I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a case made on why someone is town, but if it's not unusual to do like you say, then I have no problem creating one as to why I think that Wheat is town. It will probably be based largely on meta and a few other things (most which rely on Tezz/Seppel being scum...), but there are a few things that are neither meta nor based on Tezz/Seppel's alliance that I think should get my point across.
But, yeah, I'll post them later. Currently at school and don't have the time to do it now.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
That's fair, particularly your third point. But can we not neglect that me jumping on Ceej immediately after Manders is the very reason that you FoSed me?
SHE ALWAYS CALLS MY NUMBER, WHICH ENDS IN 9000, WHEN SHE'S TRYING TO REACH A NUMBER THAT ENDS IN 9007
STOP HITTING SO MANY ZEROES LADY
WHY HAVE YOU CALLED ME 5 TIMES IN THE PAST 10 MINUTES
You can be the next to die.
Oh yes. That's a good tell right there.
You should call her a lot while you're at work tonight. See how she likes it when someone calls repeatedly while she's trying to sleep.
Or text me her number and I'll start calling her, haha.
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1. Post when RVS ended: Best guess is post #43, but I'm not very sure. Second guess would be #17, but that seems way early.
2. Flailing: #125 is the best example, and the only one I can find off hand. Unless I misunderstand the meaning of flail.
I believe those were the two I missed, if there's another let me know.
Also in my big post, "Allow me to explain this clearer" was supposed to be a Manders quote grouped with the one below it.
If you're trying to imply I should claim, I did so already. Zuko, VT, no abilities, win when rebels are dead, flavor something along the lines of I was once a bad guy but now I fight for Aang as the Fire Lord when I realized my purpose and father was/were corrupt.
I think you're afraid to mislynch your buddy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7406359#post7406359
I find it entertaining that both of you somehow missed it.
What I said was that I don't think the claim is true. But since I have no knowledge of this show, I don't really know if he becomes aligned with the protagonist (Which I presume is that bald kid). So I want to know if he actually does become a good aligned character in the show. My post specifically states I don't believe the claim and thus I am asking for the people that know what happens In the series to let me know if he does change sides, or just ends up being destroyed/prisoned/escaped... Etc.
And you think he's scum. What's the problem?
Null. Standard VT claim.
So after someone points out that Seppel's defending Tezz, you suddenly have a reason to vote him.
This is after you already think Tezz is scummy.
Forgive me if I'm skeptical.
Why does tezz being scum mean Seppel must be scum?
@LuckNorris:
That added nothing new...
Happen to have any original thoughts to add?
@TheVoid:
What changed between your two posts?
@Burstinatrix:
If you ever actually have five distinct reasons, then you're most likely tunnelvisioning and should stop it.
You're defending him. Onus is on you to state why he's town.
@Manders:
I believe that's a different tell - use of a random number generator in order to have no connection to anyone else. They're afraid they'll call out their buddies, which can be looked back at later.
Actually, any use of a random number generator should be looked at. It has no place in a game of logic.
Compare it to the actual series after you've watched the series.
@Seppel:
Indeed. I had the exact same reaction.
@GigaRage:
What's preventing you from looking it up? Nothing.
Also, can you fencesit more?
Good grief I've explained that enough at this point.
Yep.
Yeah yeah I know.
Seppel + Tezz interactions. Seppel saves Tezz and Tezz proposes votecounts which Seppel gets on board. Doesn't necessarily mean he's scum, just really really likely.
Please read the post where I voted WG. You see the quote there? I agreed with the quote and hence why I voted for him. See post #171
WG here is trying to claim a mistype here, but why does it take him so long to try and correct situation? Shouldn't he have corrected it directly after the orignal post? Things like this are making me believe that he scum indeed and therefore should be lynched.
Timing is never a factor of when the RVS ends. It ends when someone says something relevant. Post 17 was the end of the RVS.
Apparently you do.
It was enough. I'll respond to your post tomorrow. Doing this, then watching a BIT more of the show. (Episode 1 down, lol).
Why?
It was quoted in my re-read post on him, too.
(That kind of happened at the end of the movie, though.)
True, but I think going out of your way to justify the randomness of your comments falls under the same category.
Eh, during RVS, I use it, too. I just don't proclaim I've done so...unless it makes me vote myself, haha.
I intend to. I watched the movie first so I could get a feeling for what's going on, to be more into the show when I started. It worked.
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Your right about that, nothing is stopping me from looking it up, just wanted the quick answer.
I can fence sit more if you like, but I plan on rereading this thread a couple times before I step down to the grass floor and make my final decision.
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
I don't really care how you missed it. It's a null tell.
What do you think is the probability that scum have safe claims based on the flavor?
Mhm.
IGMEOY
Vote: Wheat_Grinder since tezz apparently really is unvoting over a vanilla claim.
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What happened to your responses?
Also why is that a more valid reason to vote me over all the others.?