And here is his town meta http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=136827
His posts are worded in the same manor. His manorisms are the same.
These are, of course, old games and his meta could have changed. These are just some observations.
If you are wondering why I chose those to read, random.org
Can you point out some examples and such.
Describe them in detail.
We're what, 60 something posts into day 1? 70? It's practically the end-game. Half the players' alignments in the game are blatantly on the table, and you're trying to be cagey about your reads, PJ? For shame.
Top two, either alignment. Waiting with bated breath.
Sure, pick on the little guy. You have approximately three votes against you, sir. That constitutes a case. Never mind that they're all from the same person and in the same post. The people want to hear your defense.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Okay, this is worth pursuing. Can you be more more specific on exactly how you used random.org to select those games?
Took the list from the Hosting Signups page and put the games into a spreadsheet with the number of games that were completed at the time. Put that number into random.org, generated twice.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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I'm keeping my vote until he shows up and says something.
I'm curious. Would you vote someone without hearing their side of the story?
No, I wouldn't. I'm just saying that you basically said "Okay guys, I'm going to stop posting until Az does, LOL lurk excuse" You've also managed to take some heat off of you by saying this. AKA, redirection.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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I'm keeping my vote until he shows up and says something.
I'm curious. Would you vote someone without hearing their side of the story?
You also basically said "Az, post so I can attack you"
Azrael, if you are reading this don't post until JTM says why he thinks you are scum.
JTM, provide a PBPA on why you think Az is scum, or I will be forced to assume that you are indeed scum.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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You also basically said "Az, post so I can attack you"
Azrael, if you are reading this don't post until JTM says why he thinks you are scum.
JTM, provide a PBPA on why you think Az is scum, or I will be forced to assume that you are indeed scum.
I never said I thought he was scum, where did you draw that from?
Took the list from the Hosting Signups page and put the games into a spreadsheet with the number of games that were completed at the time. Put that number into random.org, generated twice.
Why? Doesn't it seem strange to go to so much effort just to pick two games to read? Why two specifically? Why not just pick games based on who was in them? Or games that had flavor that you were interested in?
Why was it important to you to have read two different games that were selected randomly?
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Why? Doesn't it seem strange to go to so much effort just to pick two games to read? Why two specifically? Why not just pick games based on who was in them? Or games that had flavor that you were interested in?
Why was it important to you to have read two different games that were selected randomly?
I wasn't really concerned with flavor. I did, however, want to read 2 random games so I could get a feel for the game. I didn't want to read a game where Person X dominated the entire thing, so I used a spread sheet and random.org. I don't see why you think that is a problem.
@JTM
You said, I want to here someone else side of the story before I vote, which implies you want to lynch Az.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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Why? Doesn't it seem strange to go to so much effort just to pick two games to read? Why two specifically? Why not just pick games based on who was in them? Or games that had flavor that you were interested in?
Why was it important to you to have read two different games that were selected randomly?
Forgot that for above post.
Anyway.
I wanted to read two, just to see what was different between games. I specificly wanted two games with a player who was scum in one and town in the other. Considering AZ is still around, after getting the two random games, I decided that I would follow his meta, and see how it changed. Get it?
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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I wasn't really concerned with flavor. I did, however, want to read 2 random games so I could get a feel for the game. I didn't want to read a game where Person X dominated the entire thing, so I used a spread sheet and random.org. I don't see why you think that is a problem.
I don't think it's a problem so much as I think it's a lie. I mean, not only did you go to a truly abnormal amount of effort to find random games to read, but you just happened to notice that one of the players was scum in one of them and town in the other, and decided to compare the two playstyles. Improbable, but not impossible. What really makes it unbelievable is that you have very little to show for all of this. You managed to find one post out of all of that research that you decide has anything to do with the discussion at hand?
I have no doubt at this point that you're lying; the question is whether you're lying in order to make a scum buddy look better, or because you're trying to ingratiate yourself with a townie.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I don't think it's a problem so much as I think it's a lie. I mean, not only did you go to a truly abnormal amount of effort to find random games to read, but you just happened to notice that one of the players was scum in one of them and town in the other, and decided to compare the two playstyles. Improbable, but not impossible. What really makes it unbelievable is that you have very little to show for all of this. You managed to find one post out of all of that research that you decide has anything to do with the discussion at hand?
I have no doubt at this point that you're lying; the question is whether you're lying in order to make a scum buddy look better, or because you're trying to ingratiate yourself with a townie.
Vote Yanni
Interesting that you're acusing me of lying, because I'm not. You are reading into things that aren't really there.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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I don't think it's a problem so much as I think it's a lie. I mean, not only did you go to a truly abnormal amount of effort to find random games to read, but you just happened to notice that one of the players was scum in one of them and town in the other, and decided to compare the two playstyles. Improbable, but not impossible. What really makes it unbelievable is that you have very little to show for all of this. You managed to find one post out of all of that research that you decide has anything to do with the discussion at hand?
I have no doubt at this point that you're lying; the question is whether you're lying in order to make a scum buddy look better, or because you're trying to ingratiate yourself with a townie.
Vote Yanni
And to add to the above post agian, I'm town, so your point fails, yet again.
No, I'm defending myself against Puddle's claim that I was lying about how I know about Az's metas.
Want me to troll? I'll do it.
Ermmmm...
I would actually like the scum to be modkilled by trolling.
So yes, go ahead.
ITS NOT MY FAULT!
By agreeing to these terms and conditions you accept that johnthemaster and all affiliates are not associated with Yanni of MTGS. If Yanni is somehow modkilled, lynched, or replaced in any way, johnthemaster and affiliates are not responsible. By posting after this post, you agree to these terms and conditions.
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That was a Basic. This is a FTQ. You couldn't get much further apart in terms of game complexity. The key reason mass-claims are more beneficial in more complex games is because game mechanics have a much larger impact on the end result than in simpler games. And scum naturally have an advantage in this area due to the nature of the informed minority (esp. if said minority has special abilities exclusive to the setup that the town is unaware of). A Day One mass-claim in a Specialty-level game forces the scum to keep all of the moving parts of their claims in line with town consensus or face swift retribution. In a Basic half of the players have no abilities so there's nothing to keep track of to keep people honest.
This info was appreciated, thank you.
I'm siding against the massclaim. I don't see the benefits of such a thing outweighing the vulnerability we face while exposed. Especially in light of the possibility of holdouts like kpaca.
Current reads:
Town:
EP- I like his logic. His pointing out things that had as yet gone unnoticed reads town to me. I want to see more posts from him, but he's inquisitive so far.
Puddlejumper- his interacting with azrael reads town to me, as well as his taking on Yanni's explanation out of nowhere. Guiding JtM to being helpful is also a plus. and nothing he's said so far has pinged the scumdar.
scum-
Reya- really don't like Reya's posts so far, they feel a lot like basic 31 (one of his scum games). No idea what his town meta's like though. Reya looks worse to me if JtM flips scum.
Yanni- Fairly implausible research claim looked pretty bad to start off. Turning to fearmongering and "nah, you're wrong" as defense with nothing but Rick Astley to back it up pushes it further. This post furthers my concern:
Forgot that for above post.
Anyway.
I wanted to read two, just to see what was different between games. I specificly wanted two games with a player who was scum in one and town in the other. Considering AZ is still around, after getting the two random games, I decided that I would follow his meta, and see how it changed. Get it?
(Emphasis mine)
Using random means to get two games with these specific needs doesn't line up.
Explain yourself. As has been mentioned before,
You have this exactly backwards. No lynching when you're at even players means you DO go down on votes required by one.
Oh yeah, you're right. The point is though its possible to go for a 'no-lynch' with no real danger since the amount of votes required to lynch don't change.
Oh yeah, you're right. The point is though its possible to go for a 'no-lynch' with no real danger since the amount of votes required to lynch don't change.
Not that it's really worth keeping up this discussion, but the point isn't in the number of votes. It's in the number of possible mislynches before losing. Hypothetically, if you have 20 players and 5 scum, with one kill a night, there are 5 possible mislynches. But if you No Lynch, then you still can afford to mislynch the same number of times, but you get an extra set of night actions. It's effectively half the benefit of lynching a scum without having to sacrifice anything.
But it isn't worth doing until we know how many kills we can expect in a night, because otherwise we might very well reduce the number of nights available to us. Say there's a SK and an active vig; it'd be very easy to reduce the number of possible mislynches from 3 to 2, which would really suck.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Not that it's really worth keeping up this discussion, but the point isn't in the number of votes. It's in the number of possible mislynches before losing. Hypothetically, if you have 20 players and 5 scum, with one kill a night, there are 5 possible mislynches. But if you No Lynch, then you still can afford to mislynch the same number of times, but you get an extra set of night actions. It's effectively half the benefit of lynching a scum without having to sacrifice anything.
But it isn't worth doing until we know how many kills we can expect in a night, because otherwise we might very well reduce the number of nights available to us. Say there's a SK and an active vig; it'd be very easy to reduce the number of possible mislynches from 3 to 2, which would really suck.
@Whoever asked: Yes. I claimed because people have to know about this. I've seen hated people lose the game for town.
@John : No lynching is bad in large game. You aren't going to lose anything with a lynch. There is enough power to sustain lynching. Also this game has that awesome ability where you get to give people abilities.
Also something that newer players fail to understand: Lynching a PR is not the end of the world. In a normal lynching a PR doesn't mean anything special.
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@Whoever asked: Yes. I claimed because people have to know about this. I've seen hated people lose the game for town.
@John : No lynching is bad in large game. You aren't going to lose anything with a lynch. There is enough power to sustain lynching. Also this game has that awesome ability where you get to give people abilities.
Also something that newer players fail to understand: Lynching a PR is not the end of the world. In a normal lynching a PR doesn't mean anything special.
What I was asking is a yes or no.
I am all for a lynch, as said earlier.
And just checking. WE HATE YOU.
That's what I'm going to say every time now.
It looked like weak suspicion for something that was either 1.) A joke/trying to get reactions, or 2.) A bad/anti-town suggestion. I could see JTM interpreting it as the second one, but I would expect stronger suspicion in that case.
Now he's saying that it was a joke/sarcasm, which... it could have been, I'm not sure. It didn't look like that to me initially though.
Would you say it is out of character for new players to have lower content and be more prone to emotion?
No, but not at this level. I think I need to take a quick skim of his other games though, to see how normal this is for him.
Really? I have never seen gut reads before.
Atlseals post said "Glad to see you are town AI." Not, "Gut says town AI".
Bleh, sorry, missed your point there.
I may be missing the point again, but that early in the game, those two quotes mean the same thing. The first one heavily implies the second. Unless you thought he had some role information I guess?
Oy....
Ok, the cough cough post was MY sarcasm. Gosh you guys.
Hence why I did not vote for anyone.
And it seems like everyone always thinks I'm scum, what's up with that?...
Grrrrr. So can you guys PLEASE BOLD YOUR VOTES?
Anyways.
Town
Azrael -Townish feel to his posts
Atlseal - Good scumhunting, town content
AsianInvasion - Supports logic and has good reasoning
Scumish
Yanni - Can't shake his scumish vibe
Kid has no restraint. This is one of the best n00b town tells, I've found, since n00b scum tends to be more hesitant. I guess we'll get a better idea as the Day goes on, but I would be very surprised if he's scum.
Got a triathlon (sprint) to run. See you in 24 hours or so.
That's a point, he's definitely not the lurky type. That's not how all new scum act though, and the way JTM's personality seems to be, it's not really how I would expect scum JTM to act.
Took the list from the Hosting Signups page and put the games into a spreadsheet with the number of games that were completed at the time. Put that number into random.org, generated twice.
So... did you read these before this game started?
Why the FoS on IBug specifically, considering Puddlejumper accused you too?
Also, answer IBug's question: why did you pick random games when you were trying to get a scum and town game with the same player?
JTM, why are you trying to distance yourself from me?
IBug, I brought you guys information, and you're complaining about how I got it. FOS: IBug
Puddlejumper is the one who actually pointed out the implausibility of your explanation, and the one who actually voted you. So why are you pointing a finger at IBug and not at him?
I disagree. I don't see what about scum john's personality would make him less likely to try to appear helpful.
It isn't about him being less likely to try to appear helpful. It's about him being less likely to try to appear to be trying hard. He might very well make an effort to be helpful, but he has a perspective that townie play looks like being very relaxed and not getting fussed about much. As a result, his scum play doesn't involve him going to a lot of effort to do anything, because he's afraid it'd make him look overeager.
I could be wrong, and maybe he's adapted his play in this game. But that's my read, compared to my experience playing with him before.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Ok, Yanni is lying obviously, I think we can all agree to that.
He looks like scum.
-against massclaim until he saw that everyone else was yes.
-lying about game selection
-Redirection
Ok, I think that's enough evidence and its good enough for me. vote Yanni
It isn't about him being less likely to try to appear helpful. It's about him being less likely to try to appear to be trying hard. He might very well make an effort to be helpful, but he has a perspective that townie play looks like being very relaxed and not getting fussed about much. As a result, his scum play doesn't involve him going to a lot of effort to do anything, because he's afraid it'd make him look overeager.
I could be wrong, and maybe he's adapted his play in this game. But that's my read, compared to my experience playing with him before.
Don't talk about ongoing games Puddle, but your reads are usually right.
And here is his town meta http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=136827
His posts are worded in the same manor. His manorisms are the same.
These are, of course, old games and his meta could have changed. These are just some observations.
If you are wondering why I chose those to read, random.org
This last sentence is a bit defensive. How many times has he got himself killed early in the game now?
@Puddle Jumper. After looking on it Az seems a little out of character. He's pretty laxed as his town meta goes, but the immidiate sugestion of a massclaim was a little off to me.
But apparently you had some kind of idea what my town meta looked like.
Quote from Yanni »
Vote: Mandershex for not liking the Legion in Fallout: New Vegas
(Attn PJ)
This random vote was laaaame and forced.
Quote from Yanni »
Oh noes! Malware has struck my computer. Sorry if I don't post for an extended period of time (1-2 days, max)
On the topic of this massclaim thing.
I dunno about it. It seems like it could be useful, but I don't want to give scum powerroles.
There were two tells here. First, is that he's worried about how the town will perceive him after only 1-2 days of absence. Second, is that he's able to identify the two competing interests, but he's apparently incapable of genuinely thinking through which is of greater concern.
Quote from Yanni »
You also basically said "Az, post so I can attack you"
Azrael, if you are reading this don't post until JTM says why he thinks you are scum.
JTM, provide a PBPA on why you think Az is scum, or I will be forced to assume that you are indeed scum.
Wait, what?
My head hurts from repeatedly banging it trying to squeeze down whatever tiny, strange, convoluted logical hole that led to this fine specimen.
Quote from Archonoid »
I disagree. Keeping a specific player alive is rarely relevant unless you have confirmed roles that you want around, or confirmed town that you want to be able to trust in terms of analysis and opinion. We will have neither in the early game. I think that in the early game, preventing an NK, and thus keeping the town-scum ratio high, is the primary purpose of doc protects.
I dislike mass claims in the general case. Scum can leverage the information more effectively than town can. Unless someone can provide a good explanation for why this game would be different, I am against a mass claim.
Puddlejumper: Really? Do you expect us to forgive or ignore scummy behavior just because you warned us you'll be scummy in some unspecified way? I'm having a hard time understanding why you would post that either as town (why get preemptively defensive?) or as scum (why draw attention to yourself?)
Then there's Archonoid. First paragraph is just an anti-town tell - the doc practically never stops a kill, its function is going to be to keep high-value targets alive.
Second para is seizing on a general excuse to dodge a massclaim while the specific reasons why a mass-claim might be powerful here are staring him in the face.
Third para is the worst though - well, wait. That last sentence saves it a good measure - makes it look a bit less like a shark smelling blood in the water.
Quote from Yanni »
I wanted to read two, just to see what was different between games. I specificly wanted two games with a player who was scum in one and town in the other. Considering AZ is still around, after getting the two random games, I decided that I would follow his meta, and see how it changed. Get it?
So what, you repeatedly randomed two games until you got two that I was both in? Or you randomed two games, saw that I was in both, and then chose me to follow?
How many times did that take you, to get one with me in both?
Up till now, I've just skimmed past JTM's stuff briefly, hadn't seen anything that leaps out at me. Probably should fix that.
Quote from JTM »
I was just trying to clarify that.
GOSH.
That is not fishing
Quote from JTM »
Oh... ...
I didn't know that. Oops.
Sorry about that then.
Ok, this gives me the willies, in a poggy-scum kind of way. It's oozing insincerity, to the nth degree.
Plus, it's actually a pretty legit fishing tell.
Quote from JTM »
Ok, and the award goes to Azrael for being super comedic while scum hunting at the same time. .
1. He is a power role we need to keep alive
2. He is scum
3. He is just a vanilla trying not to distract you.
I agree with Atl on this one - this is window dressing for actual posting, not something he took care to think through.
A little freaked out by Kpaca defending JTM so strongly, too.
Quote from JTM »
Now my scumdar is just beeping as normal, nothing popping up.
Nice of you to inform us of that...on page two. We were beginning to grow concerned.
Quote from JTM »
Why are you picking on Puddle Azrael? half the people here haven't done a scum/town thing yet. AND 80 POSTS IS LATE GAME?... 0_o
Yeah, that was a cheap and silly potshot.
Quote from Emo pinata »
JTM is really slinging a lot of ☺☺☺☺ out there, and yet people are forgiving it for no particular reason.
Basically sums it up. If it were logic errors, it'd be something he could play the newb card for. This stuff is just plain insincerity.
Then there's Archonoid. First paragraph is just an anti-town tell - the doc practically never stops a kill, its function is going to be to keep high-value targets alive.
Second para is seizing on a general excuse to dodge a massclaim while the specific reasons why a mass-claim might be powerful here are staring him in the face.
Third para is the worst though - well, wait. That last sentence saves it a good measure - makes it look a bit less like a shark smelling blood in the water.
A little freaked out by Kpaca defending JTM so strongly, too.
I'm of the same opinion as kpaca. While there are scum like Xenocide in Basic #17 (Demonata) who are spazzy and hyperactive, that is the exception, not the rule. In this situation, there is also the sheer boldness of johnthemaster to consider. He's not afraid of anyone in the thread, and is not backing down under pressure. Have you ever played with new scum who wasn't afraid of you (you, specifically) attacking them?
It isn't about him being less likely to try to appear helpful. It's about him being less likely to try to appear to be trying hard. He might very well make an effort to be helpful, but he has a perspective that townie play looks like being very relaxed and not getting fussed about much. As a result, his scum play doesn't involve him going to a lot of effort to do anything, because he's afraid it'd make him look overeager.
I could be wrong, and maybe he's adapted his play in this game. But that's my read, compared to my experience playing with him before.
I could see that. A lot of his play does somewhat fit the "trying to look natural" mold (with emphasis on trying), but I'll agree that the keeping track of the mass claim votes wouldn't fit with that.
Without talking too much about it, I did notice that he got wagoned early in both of his other games, which is making me wary. I'm definitely keeping an eye on him though.
Do you mean you meant to FoS only puddle jumper, but FoSed IBug instead?
And again, did you just pick random games and hope that there was someone who was town in one and scum in the other? And did you do this before or after this game started?
Also, what do you mean by "distancing" here? Distancing is where two scumbuddies are lightly suspicious of eachother so that they seem less like buddies. Unless you're implying that you're scumbuddies with JTM, I don't think that's what you meant.
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Can you point out some examples and such.
Describe them in detail.
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This post reminded me a lot of this post: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3330768&postcount=152
He's questioning and pushing for the player in question to do something, proactively scum hunting ect.
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But he scum hunts in ALL of his games...
How is this a tell?
You need some more evidence Yanni.
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Okay, this is worth pursuing. Can you be more more specific on exactly how you used random.org to select those games?
Took the list from the Hosting Signups page and put the games into a spreadsheet with the number of games that were completed at the time. Put that number into random.org, generated twice.
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If you looked at all at his scum meta game, you'll notice that he works less at scum hunting. That's why I posted the link for that game.
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Interesting...
Now I will wait to hear from Az before doing anything on this matter.
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Redirection.
+1 scum point fo you.
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I'm keeping my vote until he shows up and says something.
I'm curious. Would you vote someone without hearing their side of the story?
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No, I wouldn't. I'm just saying that you basically said "Okay guys, I'm going to stop posting until Az does, LOL lurk excuse" You've also managed to take some heat off of you by saying this. AKA, redirection.
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You also basically said "Az, post so I can attack you"
Azrael, if you are reading this don't post until JTM says why he thinks you are scum.
JTM, provide a PBPA on why you think Az is scum, or I will be forced to assume that you are indeed scum.
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I never said I thought he was scum, where did you draw that from?
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Why? Doesn't it seem strange to go to so much effort just to pick two games to read? Why two specifically? Why not just pick games based on who was in them? Or games that had flavor that you were interested in?
Why was it important to you to have read two different games that were selected randomly?
I wasn't really concerned with flavor. I did, however, want to read 2 random games so I could get a feel for the game. I didn't want to read a game where Person X dominated the entire thing, so I used a spread sheet and random.org. I don't see why you think that is a problem.
@JTM
You said, I want to here someone else side of the story before I vote, which implies you want to lynch Az.
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Forgot that for above post.
Anyway.
I wanted to read two, just to see what was different between games. I specificly wanted two games with a player who was scum in one and town in the other. Considering AZ is still around, after getting the two random games, I decided that I would follow his meta, and see how it changed. Get it?
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I don't think it's a problem so much as I think it's a lie. I mean, not only did you go to a truly abnormal amount of effort to find random games to read, but you just happened to notice that one of the players was scum in one of them and town in the other, and decided to compare the two playstyles. Improbable, but not impossible. What really makes it unbelievable is that you have very little to show for all of this. You managed to find one post out of all of that research that you decide has anything to do with the discussion at hand?
I have no doubt at this point that you're lying; the question is whether you're lying in order to make a scum buddy look better, or because you're trying to ingratiate yourself with a townie.
Vote Yanni
Interesting that you're acusing me of lying, because I'm not. You are reading into things that aren't really there.
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And to add to the above post agian, I'm town, so your point fails, yet again.
off topic
Has anyone seen this epic youtube fail?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
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That's your best defense?
RICK ROLLIN'?
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Reguardless of how I obtained this accurate information, it is still accurate information. Don't shoot the messanger.
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????
Rick rolling is accurate information?
...
Troll! All trolls are scum...
DIE!
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No, I'm defending myself against Puddle's claim that I was lying about how I know about Az's metas.
Want me to troll? I'll do it.
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Ermmmm...
I would actually like the scum to be modkilled by trolling.
So yes, go ahead.
ITS NOT MY FAULT!
By agreeing to these terms and conditions you accept that johnthemaster and all affiliates are not associated with Yanni of MTGS. If Yanni is somehow modkilled, lynched, or replaced in any way, johnthemaster and affiliates are not responsible. By posting after this post, you agree to these terms and conditions.
If you do not meet these requirements, johnthemaster and affiliates are not held responsible.
Agree
I do not Agree
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This info was appreciated, thank you.
I'm siding against the massclaim. I don't see the benefits of such a thing outweighing the vulnerability we face while exposed. Especially in light of the possibility of holdouts like kpaca.
Current reads:
Town:
EP- I like his logic. His pointing out things that had as yet gone unnoticed reads town to me. I want to see more posts from him, but he's inquisitive so far.
Puddlejumper- his interacting with azrael reads town to me, as well as his taking on Yanni's explanation out of nowhere. Guiding JtM to being helpful is also a plus. and nothing he's said so far has pinged the scumdar.
scum-
Reya- really don't like Reya's posts so far, they feel a lot like basic 31 (one of his scum games). No idea what his town meta's like though. Reya looks worse to me if JtM flips scum.
Yanni- Fairly implausible research claim looked pretty bad to start off. Turning to fearmongering and "nah, you're wrong" as defense with nothing but Rick Astley to back it up pushes it further. This post furthers my concern:
(Emphasis mine)
Using random means to get two games with these specific needs doesn't line up.
Explain yourself. As has been mentioned before,
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Oh yeah, you're right. The point is though its possible to go for a 'no-lynch' with no real danger since the amount of votes required to lynch don't change.
Not that it's really worth keeping up this discussion, but the point isn't in the number of votes. It's in the number of possible mislynches before losing. Hypothetically, if you have 20 players and 5 scum, with one kill a night, there are 5 possible mislynches. But if you No Lynch, then you still can afford to mislynch the same number of times, but you get an extra set of night actions. It's effectively half the benefit of lynching a scum without having to sacrifice anything.
But it isn't worth doing until we know how many kills we can expect in a night, because otherwise we might very well reduce the number of nights available to us. Say there's a SK and an active vig; it'd be very easy to reduce the number of possible mislynches from 3 to 2, which would really suck.
So that's a no to the No Lynch?
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@John : No lynching is bad in large game. You aren't going to lose anything with a lynch. There is enough power to sustain lynching. Also this game has that awesome ability where you get to give people abilities.
Also something that newer players fail to understand: Lynching a PR is not the end of the world. In a normal lynching a PR doesn't mean anything special.
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What I was asking is a yes or no.
I am all for a lynch, as said earlier.
And just checking. WE HATE YOU.
That's what I'm going to say every time now.
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IBug, I brought you guys information, and you're complaining about how I got it. FOS: IBug
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What makes you think he's trying to distance himself from you?
I am also confused.
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It looked like weak suspicion for something that was either 1.) A joke/trying to get reactions, or 2.) A bad/anti-town suggestion. I could see JTM interpreting it as the second one, but I would expect stronger suspicion in that case.
Now he's saying that it was a joke/sarcasm, which... it could have been, I'm not sure. It didn't look like that to me initially though.
No, but not at this level. I think I need to take a quick skim of his other games though, to see how normal this is for him.
Bleh, sorry, missed your point there.
I may be missing the point again, but that early in the game, those two quotes mean the same thing. The first one heavily implies the second. Unless you thought he had some role information I guess?
It didn't look like sarcasm to me.
I could sit here twiddling my thumbs, but I prefer to vote for people I think are scum.
Clever.
The fishing was really blatant though. It's admittedly something I wouldn't expect scum to do, especially when they're being pressured.
You think Yanni is scummy, because he (she?) always acts like scum?
Shouldn't you look for stuff that's out of the ordinary for Yanni?
That's a point, he's definitely not the lurky type. That's not how all new scum act though, and the way JTM's personality seems to be, it's not really how I would expect scum JTM to act.
I disagree. I don't see what about scum john's personality would make him less likely to try to appear helpful.
So... did you read these before this game started?
Why the FoS on IBug specifically, considering Puddlejumper accused you too?
Also, answer IBug's question: why did you pick random games when you were trying to get a scum and town game with the same player?
Puddlejumper is the one who actually pointed out the implausibility of your explanation, and the one who actually voted you. So why are you pointing a finger at IBug and not at him?
It isn't about him being less likely to try to appear helpful. It's about him being less likely to try to appear to be trying hard. He might very well make an effort to be helpful, but he has a perspective that townie play looks like being very relaxed and not getting fussed about much. As a result, his scum play doesn't involve him going to a lot of effort to do anything, because he's afraid it'd make him look overeager.
I could be wrong, and maybe he's adapted his play in this game. But that's my read, compared to my experience playing with him before.
He looks like scum.
-against massclaim until he saw that everyone else was yes.
-lying about game selection
-Redirection
Ok, I think that's enough evidence and its good enough for me.
vote Yanni
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Don't talk about ongoing games Puddle, but your reads are usually right.
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This last sentence is a bit defensive. How many times has he got himself killed early in the game now?
The first time I read this, I thought you were a lying mcliarburning pants.
But apparently you had some kind of idea what my town meta looked like.
(Attn PJ)
This random vote was laaaame and forced.
There were two tells here. First, is that he's worried about how the town will perceive him after only 1-2 days of absence. Second, is that he's able to identify the two competing interests, but he's apparently incapable of genuinely thinking through which is of greater concern.
Wait, what?
My head hurts from repeatedly banging it trying to squeeze down whatever tiny, strange, convoluted logical hole that led to this fine specimen.
Then there's Archonoid. First paragraph is just an anti-town tell - the doc practically never stops a kill, its function is going to be to keep high-value targets alive.
Second para is seizing on a general excuse to dodge a massclaim while the specific reasons why a mass-claim might be powerful here are staring him in the face.
Third para is the worst though - well, wait. That last sentence saves it a good measure - makes it look a bit less like a shark smelling blood in the water.
So what, you repeatedly randomed two games until you got two that I was both in? Or you randomed two games, saw that I was in both, and then chose me to follow?
How many times did that take you, to get one with me in both?
Up till now, I've just skimmed past JTM's stuff briefly, hadn't seen anything that leaps out at me. Probably should fix that.
Ok, this gives me the willies, in a poggy-scum kind of way. It's oozing insincerity, to the nth degree.
Plus, it's actually a pretty legit fishing tell.
I agree with Atl on this one - this is window dressing for actual posting, not something he took care to think through.
A little freaked out by Kpaca defending JTM so strongly, too.
Nice of you to inform us of that...on page two. We were beginning to grow concerned.
Yeah, that was a cheap and silly potshot.
Basically sums it up. If it were logic errors, it'd be something he could play the newb card for. This stuff is just plain insincerity.
Vote: John the Mafia.
It is quite clearly someone who can't shut up and is super excited about playing mafia but has no clue what they are doing.
Hahahaha
This. JtM is playing the same as I've seen him previously. Nothing out of the ordinary.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Yanni (2) - Puddlejumper, Johnthemaster
Vezokpiraka (1) - Yanni
MandersHex (1) - Dancing Mad
Puddlejumper (1) - Kpaca
Squeege (1) - Asian Invasion
Atlseal (1) - Emo_Pinata
Azrael (1) - Gigas1
Not Voting (10) - Zionite, Mander_Hex, desCoures, Vezokpiraka, Deaths_Vampire, Reya Cookiebringer, Archonoid, Deathjoey, Pale Mage, indomitable bug
With 20 alive, it is 11 to lynch.
I am offended, but that is probably what is happening.
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Nice to meet you.
:toot::unibrow::birthday::shots: good to meet you too.
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Az, I saw you where in both of the games and decided to follow your path and meta change through out.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6823930&postcount=223 = distancing.
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That was comical relief.
I want to be Extra close to you.
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You do not amuse me.
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No, UR wrong.
(I can do conclusory statements, too.)
Good luck with that.
Yeah, it's very easy for scum to post walls of text to make it look like they're being helpful when in fact they are just posting useless junk.
More than once in not a large number of games.
* AsianInvasion clicks the "Like" button.
I'm of the same opinion as kpaca. While there are scum like Xenocide in Basic #17 (Demonata) who are spazzy and hyperactive, that is the exception, not the rule. In this situation, there is also the sheer boldness of johnthemaster to consider. He's not afraid of anyone in the thread, and is not backing down under pressure. Have you ever played with new scum who wasn't afraid of you (you, specifically) attacking them?
I feel good about this vote.
Unvote
Vote Archonoid
I could see that. A lot of his play does somewhat fit the "trying to look natural" mold (with emphasis on trying), but I'll agree that the keeping track of the mass claim votes wouldn't fit with that.
Without talking too much about it, I did notice that he got wagoned early in both of his other games, which is making me wary. I'm definitely keeping an eye on him though.
Unvote
Do you mean you meant to FoS only puddle jumper, but FoSed IBug instead?
And again, did you just pick random games and hope that there was someone who was town in one and scum in the other? And did you do this before or after this game started?
Also, what do you mean by "distancing" here? Distancing is where two scumbuddies are lightly suspicious of eachother so that they seem less like buddies. Unless you're implying that you're scumbuddies with JTM, I don't think that's what you meant.