Since the mafia controls the corruption, claiming what level of corruption your at should help us know how many people we could lose any given night. It also helps any doc corruption healing roles know whom to heal. I'd say claiming at 50 or 75 would be benefitial.
I'm skeptical about a full mass claim, but I haven't really seen one in action. Could somebody toss a couple of game links on MTGS where mass claiming was beneficial, without counting scum missteps with flavour (which considering the amount of work put into this game's flavour seems unlikely)?
Also I doubt the fact that there are vanillas in this game. I think everyone can at least survey.
I'm wary of such assumptions, if all of us can survey then either there is going to have to be a lot of relics around or anything but survey 1 will be pointless.
I'm skeptical about a full mass claim, but I haven't really seen one in action. Could somebody toss a couple of game links on MTGS where mass claiming was beneficial, without counting scum missteps with flavour (which considering the amount of work put into this game's flavour seems unlikely)?
I'm the same, I remember in king arthur mafia some of the more experienced players were anti a mass claim. I would like to know what we hope to gain by it.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Mass claims can be very useful in locking a scum player into the role they claim. If one slips up later on its a lot easier to find them. The issue is that is also generally outs any town PRs which makes it easier for scum to figure out who to target. Personally I prefer to wait a couple (game) days before a mass claim is done in games I'm in, simply to keep the town power protected as long as possible.
I don't really buy this reason. I don't believe I've ever heard town say this and mean it; it's almost always scum trying to look as if they are not caving in to pressure to vote.
vote: DRey
I completely disagree with you. Scum know that being "conservative" with one's vote is a very weak excuse and is very easy to meta-check. They're very unlikely to employ it unless they are, in fact, actually conservative with their vote in general in which case it's a null tell.
Vote: Gigas1
Quote from Arcadic »
Since the mafia controls the corruption, claiming what level of corruption your at should help us know how many people we could lose any given night. It also helps any doc corruption healing roles know whom to heal. I'd say claiming at 50 or 75 would be benefitial.
If the mafia control corruption, why the hell would we want to alert them to when people are close to death so they can finish them off?
If the mafia control corruption, they would know how much corruption each particular person had anyway...
I still like the idea of a mass claim. I don't think that it will result in the immediate outing of any scum. I do think that it will allow for optimal coordination on the part of the town, which is going to be important for the town to get anywhere in this game.
Also, I'm sure that there is some kind of protective role around, most likely it just mitigates/prevents corruption gain.
If the mafia control corruption, they would know how much corruption each particular person had anyway...
I still like the idea of a mass claim. I don't think that it will result in the immediate outing of any scum. I do think that it will allow for optimal coordination on the part of the town, which is going to be important for the town to get anywhere in this game.
Also, I'm sure that there is some kind of protective role around, most likely it just mitigates/prevents corruption gain.
With the mafia having corruption and a kill avalible, i think a mass claim here could be more harmful than a normal setup, where the scum only have 1 kill at their disposal. It seems we'd be more likely to lose 3-4 power roles simulataniously than slowly over time one by one.
If the mafia control corruption, they would know how much corruption each particular person had anyway...
Disagree with this statement, I think it is a safe assumption to assume the town has some way of reducing corruption and that the mafia wont be informed which particular person has their corruption reduced by this ability.
Thus while they have an overall idea of the level of corruption in the town, I don't think they will know the specific corruption of a single townie.
Ok I'm against a mass claim, I can see the reasons why it would benefit town to lock scum into roles. But it would benefit scum more currently, we would lose our power roles very quickly if we did this now.
The way I see the best interests of town to be served is to maximise our power roles without outing them to scum.
Assuming power roles need relics we want to stay in the antechamber day 1 then move every subsequent day.
Then we wish to make sure every power roles gets the chance to be active so I say we hit every chamber, one after the other.
Once we reach the bottom maybe we have a mass claim there after every power roles has had a chance to use their ability and we can expect results.
Thoughts on this?
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Did you guys actually read the PCQ thread when Zindabad described this game? Maybe you should. He made it plainly apparent that the town would have to cooperate and coordinate to succeed. And looking at my own role, I can see why this is the case. One of my abilities is barely useful until I have a particular # of RP, and the other can only target other people. And frankly, I don't want to waste it.
You know what. In order to provide an example as to why I think a mass claim will be beneficial(and possibly is downright necessary), I'll just claim myself.
I am Loggi Stormpike, Town Mage, Bronzebeard. One of my abilities lets me watch a person. But if I don't have a certain amount of RP, I will only learn whether or not they are targeted. At that RP threshold, I will also learn the names of those that targeted my target. I can also target another person, and that person's abilities will work as though they have 999 RP. My last ability takes away some of the RP I have, and let's me use both of my other abilities in the same night(generally I can only use one).
So you tell me. How important is being able to watch? Especially when, without a given amount of RP, the watch part of my ability is barely useful. And how about my second ability. It could be very powerful. Or it could be a giant waste.
Roles like mine(and I'm sure there are plenty more of them) are why I think a mass claim is a good idea.
If the mafia control corruption, they would know how much corruption each particular person had anyway...
I misspoke. Control implies that they have complete power over it, while Zindabad states in the OP that the mafia "manipulate" corruption. Makes no mention of the mafia also knowing how much corruption people have. So once again Arcadic, do you know something we don't? Why would we want to reveal what our corruption levels are?
Ah think mass claimin is safer 'en a bunch o' folks claimin while th' others stay sahlent.
Ah'm Fanny Thundermar, Town Rogue, Wildhammer. Ah can track a player at night. If mah runic power is 7 or over, I see the identity of th' person they targeted.
The reason I'm particulairly pro mass claim is that my ability requires the people I target to accept a PM from the mod that says "do you want to do something else besides what you're going to do tonight?".
If people decide to go paranoid on me no one will ever benefit from my role, and it's very useful.
I misspoke. Control implies that they have complete power over it, while Zindabad states in the OP that the mafia "manipulate" corruption. Makes no mention of the mafia also knowing how much corruption people have. So once again Arcadic, do you know something we don't? Why would we want to reveal what our corruption levels are?
Your missing the point. If they have influence on how the corruption spreads, then they already know whom is receiving higher levels of corruption. They may not know exact numbers, but they likely know who each night will move close towards 100, and not claiming a high corruption would result in more dead bodies than expected over a night period.
The only merit to not claiming it is if the mafia do not know how much corruption they can cause per night. Claiming it can give us an idea of how much they CAN do each night and give us an idea of whom the scum are targeting. I see no merit in hiding something from the town in which the scum can manipulate.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I might not be as used to this as most, but a mass claim seems like a bad idea in theory. Why would we show our hand so early into this?
Quote from jdisawesomesauce »
The way I see the best interests of town to be served is to maximise our power roles without outing them to scum.
Assuming power roles need relics we want to stay in the antechamber day 1 then move every subsequent day.
Then we wish to make sure every power roles gets the chance to be active so I say we hit every chamber, one after the other.
Once we reach the bottom maybe we have a mass claim there after every power roles has had a chance to use their ability and we can expect results.
This is my feeling exactly (see I know i randomed you for some reason). It gives time to power up roles (as the two current posted roles have shown) and then we mass claim our abilities and such to use them to the fullest and not before hand.
Now with corruption yes it is to the towns favor to know who is that close to death but as its being brought up that can also be a hazard to those players health. Still I just don't know knowing it could bring more knowledge but at what cost. If we find that mafia can kill at a lower level of corruption on a person that really does complicate things quickly. So for now i'm solidly against corruption claims.
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I have it on good authority that the Phyrexians are going to win. However, Venser is then going to teleport the whole of New Phyrexia inside the Zendikar Hedrons, leaving the Phyrexians and Eldrazi trapped in an eternal struggle of the mechanics that nobody likes.
The next set will feature both infect and annihilator, and be called Maro'sWetDreamia. It will also feature a new Jace, to ensure that it sells well.
Ah think mass claimin is safer 'en a bunch o' folks claimin while th' others stay sahlent.
Ah'm Fanny Thundermar, Town Rogue, Wildhammer. Ah can track a player at night. If mah runic power is 7 or over, I see the identity of th' person they targeted.
I was trying to keep the 7 requirement part a secret, in case you couldn't tell.
Anyway, my runic threshold is also 7, which makes me believe AL's claim instantly. Not that this makes him necessarily town, but it definitely makes him a tracker.
Weird that I have other abilities while he doesn't, though.
The thing is like, if there are other town roles that are more powerful, I'd be fine with not collecting RP(or just collecting 1 point at a time at first) so that they can achieve what they need to first. Watcher/Tracker just aren't that useful early game(and even moreso in this game). But I'm not going to just assume that this is the case.
Watcher and tracker already outed...and no semblance of order whatsoever. Stop claiming. We need to put the mass-claim to a formal vote and then decide on an order. Regardless, I would like to claim last; you will understand why after I claim.
And they're particularly not in this game. Our roles do almost nothing unless we have 7 RP, which takes 3 days to achieve.
And I don't see any need for a 'claim order'. If certain people want to go last, they can request as much.
I suppose a mass claim could not happen, but I'd be disappointed if that were the case. My single role PM should show why it is likely enough to be helpful that it is worth taking the risk.
I'm getting really really bad vibes about Cyan now too. Man, if we have a Cyan-Kraj scumteam, we're ☺☺☺☺ed.
inb4 that AL's claim clears Cyan. It doesn't because Cyan has an extra ability, because Cyan brought up that their claims were similar, and because watcher is much more likely to be scum than a tracker, in my experience.
However, despite being wholly and completely against massclaiming, I will say this. I can only survey unless I'm in a certain room, and it's not this one.
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:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
I am Loggi Stormpike, Town Mage, Bronzebeard. One of my abilities lets me watch a person.
But if I don't have a certain amount of RP, I will only learn whether or not they are targeted.
At that RP threshold, I will also learn the names of those that targeted my target.
I can also target another person, and that person's abilities will work as though they have 999 RP.
My last ability takes away some of the RP I have, and let's me use both of my other abilities in the same night(generally I can only use one).
With this role I can understand why you want to claim. The watcher ability is good heading into the late game it would be a shame to lose this if legit but something seems off about it.
The "999 RP" seems a little over the top, 99 would be the same essentially as it would take 33 nights to harvest that many points. Something about this just sits uneasy.
And they're particularly not in this game. Our roles do almost nothing unless we have 7 RP, which takes 3 days to achieve.
And I don't see any need for a 'claim order'. If certain people want to go last, they can request as much.
I suppose a mass claim could not happen, but I'd be disappointed if that were the case. My single role PM should show why it is likely enough to be helpful that it is worth taking the risk.
The point of a claim order during a mass claim is it means scum may pick a role that is already taken. If scum get to go last they have all the cards on the table and can make a relatively safe claim.
I'm getting really really bad vibes about Cyan now too. Man, if we have a Cyan-Kraj scumteam, we're ☺☺☺☺ed.
inb4 that AL's claim clears Cyan. It doesn't because Cyan has an extra ability, because Cyan brought up that their claims were similar, and because watcher is much more likely to be scum than a tracker, in my experience.
However, despite being wholly and completely against massclaiming, I will say this. I can only survey unless I'm in a certain room, and it's not this one.
Argh all this claiming and pseudo claiming circumventing the vote is really annoying.
@mod : Can we get a vote count on the location move, also I noticed a few bolded move votes, can people recheck their vote.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
While I understand what you're saying about HP and Points and whatnot, I'm getting a vibe that you're trying to use your experience to manhandle the town into a massclaim.
So did you accuse me of the exact same crap in American Pie, or was it just the scum?
Hell, you even have some pretty good reasons. But you hardly mention the downsides at all, and you're definitely experienced enough to know very well what they all are.
Care to elaborate on all those downsides I didn't mention?
With the amount of work that zind has put into this game (look at the oodles of flavor text), I find it hard to believe he didn't put quite a bit of thought into mafia claims.
So you don't like that I modgamed, but you're going to just go ahead and modgame the opposite conclusion?
I've only played in one game before that was this complicated with fancy stuff like items and whatnot, and I was scum there. And given a fakeclaim that was very fitting and would have won me the game if it weren't for a misplay on the part of my partner. I'm getting the feeling that Kraj is mafia and was provided a good enough fakeclaim (or the tools to create one) that he wants to test it on us.
That's completely dumb. Completely. Mafia with fake claims still don't want to claim. Why? Because claiming still means you are held accountable for how you use your abilities, and scum tend to like to use their abilities in anti-town ways.
So basically, you used all the same thought processes I did, came to different conclusions, and then voted me for it because I'm more experienced than most of the players here.
I'm getting really really bad vibes about Cyan now too. Man, if we have a Cyan-Kraj scumteam, we're ☺☺☺☺ed.
So, pure fearmongering. You know who tend to be scared of experienced players? Inexperienced scum.
Quote from Zajnet »
However, despite being wholly and completely against massclaiming, I will say this. I can only survey unless I'm in a certain room, and it's not this one.
So you're wholly and completely against massclaiming, but you're going to join in? So are you proving me right or what?
The point of a claim order during a mass claim is it means scum may pick a role that is already taken. If scum get to go last they have all the cards on the table and can make a relatively safe claim.
This. And as I said, I'll be happy to be at the top of the list. Like Cyan, my claim ought to make it apparent why I think coordination is important.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
AL's claim doesn't clear me, nor is the reverse true. If the game has any other investigative roles, then most likely AL is scum, really. From my perspective, this is backed up by the fact that my role has other abilities while his doesn't(making it more likely that his is part of a group).
If there are no other relevant investigative roles, then yes, there is a decent chance that AL and I are both town. All I was saying is that AL's Runic Power requirement being exactly the same as mine means that I believe that his claim is real. He didn't just make up the #7 and get lucky.
@jd: I have no idea why it's 999. Speculating on that seems silly though, since this is the ability I will most likely be using for the first few nights, and as such the claim is easily verified. And the odds of all of the scum 'going last' are no different whether there is an order or people just claim as they come along. If the 'order' is just assigned by random.org then whatever, I don't care. I just don't want the discussion to become stifled while someone takes forever to work out some exact claim order based upon 3 pages of posts.
@Kraj: I think Zajnet is pretty likely to be town, honestly. His intention is sincere. And I don't see why you don't just throw your claim out if you're willing to go first anyway. I'm perfectly willing to brute force a mass-claim through, because I am thoroughly convinced that it will make the game much easier for the town(and considering that I almost didn't sign up because I feel like the mechanics heavily favor the scum, I'll take whatever chances I can get).
After rereading the arguements for and against massclaiming, I have to say that Lost_Profit and tordeck convinced me more than anyone else.
I personally just don't see Zajnet as scum. Seems like inexperienced townie to me; However, it's very easy to turn that into an accusation, and more importantly - quite safe. I'm going to vote kraj here, because scum would want the easy wagons to get onto - and off of.
Or to be precise, I would vote for Kraj, but my random vote was on him already!
Goddamnit you guys are being thick about this. Here are Zindabad's exact quoted words from the PCQ thread before voting occurred:
Quote from Zindabad »
I see that in the original PCQ thread, mods answered questions about their setups, so I'll do that (even though you didn't actually ask any direct questions.)
I like to encourage co-operation in my towns, for the most part, and with good reason. The basic concept of Mafia is an informed minority vs. an ignorant majority. As we've seen from the statistics in the Council thread, the minority tends to win big games, and I'd venture to say the reason is not because they are naturally overpowered, because I don't think they are, but because the town cannot co-operate in a satisfactory manner.
If players just hang out and do whatever Surveying they want without consideration, they'll probably be screwing other players, whose abilities may then not work as effectively/at all, which will probably harm the town on balance. But isn't that the same for any abilities which are used indiscriminately and without regard for the rest of the town? The limited resources of the Survey mechanic just drive the point home.
I see your concerns about LyLo/Corruption, but remind you that players are informed when they reach 75, meaning they'll have a pretty good idea of who is approaching death by Corruption.
There is literally no argument that the town needs to coordinate Surveying, at the very least. None. Any argument that you could conceivably come up with his thwarted by the words of the mod himself.
So let me ask you. How, exactly, should this be coordinated, when we don't know anything? Should we just take someone's word that their role is worthy of gaining Runic Power earlier than anyone else'? What if they are A)overestimating their role or B)simply more interested in using their role than in not being able to effectively do so? Or C)Both? When are we supposed to figure this out? Day 4, when any one of the random players in this game that has virtually no specialty experience says 'here's my role that I've been sucking up RP for..what do you mean it's terrible and I shouldn't have bothered, that doesn't sound like fun at all!'
That is exactly what will happen. I'll pass.
People that are arguing against mass-claiming, I can only presume never read the post that I just quoted. Now that you have, I can only hope that you will realize that what is 'generally correct' for mafia in regard to mass-claiming(and I am generally opposed to mass-claims myself), is not what is correct for this game.
@Cyan: Cooperation and a mass-full-claim aren't the same. Not at all. I think we can trust players to figure out on their own whether their role is worth the relics or not. I think your desire to control everything (telling people if their role is good or not, unilaterally claiming, etc) is very scummy. I need to read a bit of your meta, but maybe I'm overreacting. I just have really bad memories of how the town lost Anita Blake 2. For those of you who aren't aware, Cyan used an early claim of being a power role (Cop I think) to manhandle the town to follow his lead. He ended up winning that game as scum.
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Level 1 Judge
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Actually, what happened in that game was that I bussed half of my team completely to death(well, Joboman was on purpose, the other just ended up being necessary, sadly) in the first 2 days of the game.
And I fail to see what that has to do with this.
I think that you are woefully overestimating everyone if you think that you can trust people to figure out whether or not their role is worth collecting relics for. With the exception of heavily seasoned/experienced players(of which this game is sorely lacking, despite the suspicious # of them that voted for this game in the PCQ), people that have a role are going to want to use that role. They are going to think that it is good, and that they should do whatever they can with it. No one ever wants to be Vanilla/close to Vanilla, especially when they have a choice in the matter.
Here is a fine, fine example of what happens to towns in games like this one: Points Mafia. In Points, IIRC, a mass-claim/cooperation was suggested early, and was summarily dismissed. The mafia proceeded to absolutely man-handle the town in that game(this is not an exaggeration..a single scum multi-voted townies to death for 5 days straight or something because of the abilities he bought), because they were able to work together, while townies bought whatever abilities seemed cool to them at the time. Even when the course of action that the town needed to take was OBVIOUS, they still didn't do it. It was a complete debacle, and I am supremely confident that the same thing will happen here. And I refuse to sit through it.
In this game, cooperation and a mass-claim ARE the same, because you can't get people to cooperate(by which I mean not try to fish up as many RP as possible everyday) without know what they can do in the first place. There are too many roles/variations/deviations/etc etc to just make statements like 'only try to get 3 RP if you have an investigative role'. Especially when some investigative roles that could exist will seem useful to inexperienced players, but in practice really won't be. The same goes for a role like bodyguard. If someone has a bodyguard ability, they are going to think it is zomg-amazing, and try to acquire however many RP are necessary for it to work to it's best potential(I am obviously speaking from the hypothetical position that a bodyguard role exists at all). But in reality, bodyguard is an almost completely worthless role, unless you magically get to there being very few people in the game without anyone ever finding out about it(read: this never happens). If such a role is in the game, unless having X RP turns them into a Doc, they shouldn't collect RP. Ever. But they will.
There are plenty of other examples. I literally came up with that one in 20 seconds.
How about this. How would YOU propose that the town coordinate how/when/etc Surveying is handled, without a mass claim? I'm all ears.
i would like zajnet to claim first but i agree about what someone said that we should not wait too much for claiming, i dont want to give scum time to read and ajust their claiming, so we should not claim without defined order.
@zindabad can you to provide us a random order for claiming?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
im liking more and more the possibility of a mass claim, looking like scum is very afraid of it, considering the complexity of my own role i believe it will be VERY hard for scum to create believable claims.
DRey is in no uncertain terms saying Zajnet is scum for his post about Kraj...but he's not voting for Zajnet. Why?
unvote
vote DRey
this is ridiculous, so are you certain im scum?
how can town be ever be really sure of anything?
the answer is: we cannot, only scum can be sure.
so i ask you again, you sure im scum?
EWP: also, ive already said it before, i dont vote lightly, read my only finished game to see (king arthur mafia), on the whole game ive only voted two guys, but FOSed an untold number of times.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
EWP: also, ive already said it before, i dont vote lightly, read my only finished game to see (king arthur mafia), on the whole game ive only voted two guys, but FOSed an untold number of times.
That's probably why you got mislynched: Because you were acting like scum.
@Kraj: I think Zajnet is pretty likely to be town, honestly. His intention is sincere.
Doesn't read that way to me at all. In a game with only a couple really experienced players, getting the rest of the players to feel like we'll just trounce them if we're scum is a great way to nullify the experience we bring to the table.
And I don't see why you don't just throw your claim out if you're willing to go first anyway. I'm perfectly willing to brute force a mass-claim through, because I am thoroughly convinced that it will make the game much easier for the town(and considering that I almost didn't sign up because I feel like the mechanics heavily favor the scum, I'll take whatever chances I can get).
Mostly because I don't mass claim without consensus. But I think you're right about forcing it, and frankly this game is already turning into everything that made me quit mafia, so screw it.
I am High Priest Rohan, Town Priest, Bronzebeard. In addition to surveying, I have a progressing investigative ability. The first time I target someone the mod picks a night at random and I learn who targeted them on that night. The second time I target them the mod picks at random again and I learn who they targeted on that night. The third time I target them, I get a straight-up alignment. I can spend 4 RP to get an additional shot of my ability. But I can't do anything but survey while in the Condemned Halls.
I think that you are woefully overestimating everyone if you think that you can trust people to figure out whether or not their role is worth collecting relics for.
This. Because I haven't a clue whether my role is worth collecting relics for. It's reasonably good in the early game unless we move to the CH in which I sit around looking like a douche. After a couple nights it's pretty worthless. Unless I rack up a crapload of RP, in which case it's broken. But I'm not going to hoard RP because I might be able to do something really good with them when other people couple use them more effectively.
If I'm unsure of the best way to utilize my own role, I'm sure as hell not trusting everyone else to have it all figured out.
I think that a massclaim is a great idea, and I have no problem claiming at this time. I am Kurdran Wildhammer, Vanilla Town. Obviously I am of the Wildhammer clan.
how can town be ever be really sure of anything?
the answer is: we cannot, only scum can be sure.
so i ask you again, you sure im scum?
EWP: also, ive already said it before, i dont vote lightly, read my only finished game to see (king arthur mafia), on the whole game ive only voted two guys, but FOSed an untold number of times.
This is a pretty bad post, but it's hard for me to imagine a scum actually saying something like this.
I think that a massclaim is a great idea, and I have no problem claiming at this time. I am Kurdran Wildhammer, Vanilla Town. Obviously I am of the Wildhammer clan.
You can't do anything?
Not even Survey?
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Jeez people. If your for a mass claim, lets at least have some sembalence of order to it. In fact, this complete chaos of the massclaim makes me support it now. I was going to simply suggest that we all agree to survey a flat amount, so we have a proper idea of how many relics are here, but this relied on people's timestamps.
@DKD: DO NOT RESPOND IT YET.
@everyone: this mass claim is a mess, DO NOT CLAIM until we decide the order of the claims.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
who gave you the right to speak on zindabad's behalf?
look, i apreciate your initiative, but i dont trust your list, sorry.
He 'answered for Zindabad' because anyone that has played more than 2 games of mafia knows that the Mod is never going to interact with a game in that fashion.
And if you 'don't trust his list', what is wrong with it?
@DKD: DO NOT RESPOND IT YET.
@everyone: this mass claim is a mess, DO NOT CLAIM until we decide the order of the claims.
Why don't you be a little more of a drama queen? It doesn't matter who made the order. You don't even know how he came up with it. What if it was just randomed? Is it still untrustworthy then?
DRey, are you a gimmick of the player known as Tilde?
I wasn't really for it, but doing a massclaim only part way is by far the worst of all the options. Since people have already gone:
I am Dheldormu, Bronze Dragon, Neutral Seeker. I win (and leave the game) once I have 12 relics.
I can:
-Reset my corruption to zero at the cost of some of my relics
-Avoid 1 Nightkill
-Pick a player and night, and find out everything they did that night.
I have no problem searching minimally the first few nights in order to let more important roles get relics faster, but starting night 2/3 at the latest I will be searching to fulfill my win condition as fast as possible.
If people are worried about me playing for the town, consider that I like being town more than scum in general, because I enjoy scumhunting. And if that doesn't persuade you, realize also that I have abilities to protect me from the scum and to benefit the town, but not vice-versa.
who gave you the right to speak on zindabad's behalf?
look, i apreciate your initiative, but i dont trust your list, sorry.
The list is the list from the first page. I believe its simply the order players signed up in. I wouldn't expect mod help on this, however, because he knows all roles/alignments and he is incapable of creating an unbiased list.
@DKD: DO NOT RESPOND IT YET.
@everyone: this mass claim is a mess, DO NOT CLAIM until we decide the order of the claims.
Why does this matter. There is next to nothing to base suitable suspicion on, and thus any list will be more or less random.
In fact, I like haphazardly claiming when doing massclaims - the timing people choose to go at can be a tell in itself.
He 'answered for Zindabad' because anyone that has played more than 2 games of mafia knows that the Mod is never going to interact with a game in that fashion.
sorry, i didnt know that. well i supose i agree with AI list then.
And if you 'don't trust his list', what is wrong with it?
Why don't you be a little more of a drama queen? It doesn't matter who made the order. You don't even know how he came up with it. What if it was just randomed? Is it still untrustworthy then?
nothing particular (i dont like the provider of it though), if hes scum, setting the order of the list its huge.
DRey, are you a gimmick of the player known as Tilde?
no
EWP: LP said the list is from zindabads, so i now fully agree to follow it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Actually, there is a regular mafia NK, too. But this display of ignorance is a town tell for you.
I don't recall him ever saying that, though I hold that opinion myself (for Basics, at least).
Since the mafia controls the corruption, claiming what level of corruption your at should help us know how many people we could lose any given night. It also helps any doc corruption healing roles know whom to heal. I'd say claiming at 50 or 75 would be benefitial.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
My blog.
I'm wary of such assumptions, if all of us can survey then either there is going to have to be a lot of relics around or anything but survey 1 will be pointless.
I'm the same, I remember in king arthur mafia some of the more experienced players were anti a mass claim. I would like to know what we hope to gain by it.
The Family
I completely disagree with you. Scum know that being "conservative" with one's vote is a very weak excuse and is very easy to meta-check. They're very unlikely to employ it unless they are, in fact, actually conservative with their vote in general in which case it's a null tell.
Vote: Gigas1
If the mafia control corruption, why the hell would we want to alert them to when people are close to death so they can finish them off?
I still like the idea of a mass claim. I don't think that it will result in the immediate outing of any scum. I do think that it will allow for optimal coordination on the part of the town, which is going to be important for the town to get anywhere in this game.
Also, I'm sure that there is some kind of protective role around, most likely it just mitigates/prevents corruption gain.
With the mafia having corruption and a kill avalible, i think a mass claim here could be more harmful than a normal setup, where the scum only have 1 kill at their disposal. It seems we'd be more likely to lose 3-4 power roles simulataniously than slowly over time one by one.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
I broke the top quote up but forgot to /barn its statement.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Disagree with this statement, I think it is a safe assumption to assume the town has some way of reducing corruption and that the mafia wont be informed which particular person has their corruption reduced by this ability.
Thus while they have an overall idea of the level of corruption in the town, I don't think they will know the specific corruption of a single townie.
Ok I'm against a mass claim, I can see the reasons why it would benefit town to lock scum into roles. But it would benefit scum more currently, we would lose our power roles very quickly if we did this now.
The way I see the best interests of town to be served is to maximise our power roles without outing them to scum.
Assuming power roles need relics we want to stay in the antechamber day 1 then move every subsequent day.
Then we wish to make sure every power roles gets the chance to be active so I say we hit every chamber, one after the other.
Once we reach the bottom maybe we have a mass claim there after every power roles has had a chance to use their ability and we can expect results.
Thoughts on this?
Did you guys actually read the PCQ thread when Zindabad described this game? Maybe you should. He made it plainly apparent that the town would have to cooperate and coordinate to succeed. And looking at my own role, I can see why this is the case. One of my abilities is barely useful until I have a particular # of RP, and the other can only target other people. And frankly, I don't want to waste it.
You know what. In order to provide an example as to why I think a mass claim will be beneficial(and possibly is downright necessary), I'll just claim myself.
I am Loggi Stormpike, Town Mage, Bronzebeard. One of my abilities lets me watch a person. But if I don't have a certain amount of RP, I will only learn whether or not they are targeted. At that RP threshold, I will also learn the names of those that targeted my target. I can also target another person, and that person's abilities will work as though they have 999 RP. My last ability takes away some of the RP I have, and let's me use both of my other abilities in the same night(generally I can only use one).
So you tell me. How important is being able to watch? Especially when, without a given amount of RP, the watch part of my ability is barely useful. And how about my second ability. It could be very powerful. Or it could be a giant waste.
Roles like mine(and I'm sure there are plenty more of them) are why I think a mass claim is a good idea.
I misspoke. Control implies that they have complete power over it, while Zindabad states in the OP that the mafia "manipulate" corruption. Makes no mention of the mafia also knowing how much corruption people have. So once again Arcadic, do you know something we don't? Why would we want to reveal what our corruption levels are?
Ah'm Fanny Thundermar, Town Rogue, Wildhammer. Ah can track a player at night. If mah runic power is 7 or over, I see the identity of th' person they targeted.
If people decide to go paranoid on me no one will ever benefit from my role, and it's very useful.
Your missing the point. If they have influence on how the corruption spreads, then they already know whom is receiving higher levels of corruption. They may not know exact numbers, but they likely know who each night will move close towards 100, and not claiming a high corruption would result in more dead bodies than expected over a night period.
The only merit to not claiming it is if the mafia do not know how much corruption they can cause per night. Claiming it can give us an idea of how much they CAN do each night and give us an idea of whom the scum are targeting. I see no merit in hiding something from the town in which the scum can manipulate.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Do my eyes deceive? A mass claim? Cordiality from Cyan?
I'm PM'ng Zind for rules clarification because I thought an explanation was in the rules, but it's not.
I'm fine with moving. Game moddery, huzzah!
No other votes from me or my claim until I get clarification
12-11? I'm losing track
I might not be as used to this as most, but a mass claim seems like a bad idea in theory. Why would we show our hand so early into this?
This is my feeling exactly (see I know i randomed you for some reason). It gives time to power up roles (as the two current posted roles have shown) and then we mass claim our abilities and such to use them to the fullest and not before hand.
Now with corruption yes it is to the towns favor to know who is that close to death but as its being brought up that can also be a hazard to those players health. Still I just don't know knowing it could bring more knowledge but at what cost. If we find that mafia can kill at a lower level of corruption on a person that really does complicate things quickly. So for now i'm solidly against corruption claims.
But I will say that I can only use my ability once.
I was trying to keep the 7 requirement part a secret, in case you couldn't tell.
Anyway, my runic threshold is also 7, which makes me believe AL's claim instantly. Not that this makes him necessarily town, but it definitely makes him a tracker.
Weird that I have other abilities while he doesn't, though.
@Fenris:
The thing is like, if there are other town roles that are more powerful, I'd be fine with not collecting RP(or just collecting 1 point at a time at first) so that they can achieve what they need to first. Watcher/Tracker just aren't that useful early game(and even moreso in this game). But I'm not going to just assume that this is the case.
I'd be all for this if not for the fact that two power roles already claimed...
Everyone who sees this should quote it and add his name to the list.
Mass-Claim?
Yes (3): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion
No (0):
For reasons I already specified.
God I cant believe ya'll just jumped in there and claimed for no reason.
The Family
And they're particularly not in this game. Our roles do almost nothing unless we have 7 RP, which takes 3 days to achieve.
And I don't see any need for a 'claim order'. If certain people want to go last, they can request as much.
I suppose a mass claim could not happen, but I'd be disappointed if that were the case. My single role PM should show why it is likely enough to be helpful that it is worth taking the risk.
Yes (3): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion
No (2): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce
Please remove the quote tags when quoting this as it makes it easier to retweet it.
Yes (3): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion
No (2): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet
I'm getting really really bad vibes about Cyan now too. Man, if we have a Cyan-Kraj scumteam, we're ☺☺☺☺ed.
inb4 that AL's claim clears Cyan. It doesn't because Cyan has an extra ability, because Cyan brought up that their claims were similar, and because watcher is much more likely to be scum than a tracker, in my experience.
However, despite being wholly and completely against massclaiming, I will say this. I can only survey unless I'm in a certain room, and it's not this one.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
With this role I can understand why you want to claim. The watcher ability is good heading into the late game it would be a shame to lose this if legit but something seems off about it.
The "999 RP" seems a little over the top, 99 would be the same essentially as it would take 33 nights to harvest that many points. Something about this just sits uneasy.
The point of a claim order during a mass claim is it means scum may pick a role that is already taken. If scum get to go last they have all the cards on the table and can make a relatively safe claim.
Argh all this claiming and pseudo claiming circumventing the vote is really annoying.
@mod : Can we get a vote count on the location move, also I noticed a few bolded move votes, can people recheck their vote.
So did you accuse me of the exact same crap in American Pie, or was it just the scum?
Care to elaborate on all those downsides I didn't mention?
Too bad. Cuz you know what? I'm pretty good at modgaming. In fact, I'm way better at solving setup puzzles than 90% of the players here.
So you don't like that I modgamed, but you're going to just go ahead and modgame the opposite conclusion?
That's completely dumb. Completely. Mafia with fake claims still don't want to claim. Why? Because claiming still means you are held accountable for how you use your abilities, and scum tend to like to use their abilities in anti-town ways.
So basically, you used all the same thought processes I did, came to different conclusions, and then voted me for it because I'm more experienced than most of the players here.
So, pure fearmongering. You know who tend to be scared of experienced players? Inexperienced scum.
So you're wholly and completely against massclaiming, but you're going to join in? So are you proving me right or what?
This smells more like panic than paranoia to me.
Unvote, Vote: Zajnet
This. And as I said, I'll be happy to be at the top of the list. Like Cyan, my claim ought to make it apparent why I think coordination is important.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
If there are no other relevant investigative roles, then yes, there is a decent chance that AL and I are both town. All I was saying is that AL's Runic Power requirement being exactly the same as mine means that I believe that his claim is real. He didn't just make up the #7 and get lucky.
@jd: I have no idea why it's 999. Speculating on that seems silly though, since this is the ability I will most likely be using for the first few nights, and as such the claim is easily verified. And the odds of all of the scum 'going last' are no different whether there is an order or people just claim as they come along. If the 'order' is just assigned by random.org then whatever, I don't care. I just don't want the discussion to become stifled while someone takes forever to work out some exact claim order based upon 3 pages of posts.
@Kraj: I think Zajnet is pretty likely to be town, honestly. His intention is sincere. And I don't see why you don't just throw your claim out if you're willing to go first anyway. I'm perfectly willing to brute force a mass-claim through, because I am thoroughly convinced that it will make the game much easier for the town(and considering that I almost didn't sign up because I feel like the mechanics heavily favor the scum, I'll take whatever chances I can get).
Yes (3): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
After rereading the arguements for and against massclaiming, I have to say that Lost_Profit and tordeck convinced me more than anyone else.
I personally just don't see Zajnet as scum. Seems like inexperienced townie to me; However, it's very easy to turn that into an accusation, and more importantly - quite safe. I'm going to vote kraj here, because scum would want the easy wagons to get onto - and off of.
Or to be precise, I would vote for Kraj, but my random vote was on him already!
My blog.
There is literally no argument that the town needs to coordinate Surveying, at the very least. None. Any argument that you could conceivably come up with his thwarted by the words of the mod himself.
So let me ask you. How, exactly, should this be coordinated, when we don't know anything? Should we just take someone's word that their role is worthy of gaining Runic Power earlier than anyone else'? What if they are A)overestimating their role or B)simply more interested in using their role than in not being able to effectively do so? Or C)Both? When are we supposed to figure this out? Day 4, when any one of the random players in this game that has virtually no specialty experience says 'here's my role that I've been sucking up RP for..what do you mean it's terrible and I shouldn't have bothered, that doesn't sound like fun at all!'
That is exactly what will happen. I'll pass.
People that are arguing against mass-claiming, I can only presume never read the post that I just quoted. Now that you have, I can only hope that you will realize that what is 'generally correct' for mafia in regard to mass-claiming(and I am generally opposed to mass-claims myself), is not what is correct for this game.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
And I fail to see what that has to do with this.
I think that you are woefully overestimating everyone if you think that you can trust people to figure out whether or not their role is worth collecting relics for. With the exception of heavily seasoned/experienced players(of which this game is sorely lacking, despite the suspicious # of them that voted for this game in the PCQ), people that have a role are going to want to use that role. They are going to think that it is good, and that they should do whatever they can with it. No one ever wants to be Vanilla/close to Vanilla, especially when they have a choice in the matter.
Here is a fine, fine example of what happens to towns in games like this one: Points Mafia. In Points, IIRC, a mass-claim/cooperation was suggested early, and was summarily dismissed. The mafia proceeded to absolutely man-handle the town in that game(this is not an exaggeration..a single scum multi-voted townies to death for 5 days straight or something because of the abilities he bought), because they were able to work together, while townies bought whatever abilities seemed cool to them at the time. Even when the course of action that the town needed to take was OBVIOUS, they still didn't do it. It was a complete debacle, and I am supremely confident that the same thing will happen here. And I refuse to sit through it.
In this game, cooperation and a mass-claim ARE the same, because you can't get people to cooperate(by which I mean not try to fish up as many RP as possible everyday) without know what they can do in the first place. There are too many roles/variations/deviations/etc etc to just make statements like 'only try to get 3 RP if you have an investigative role'. Especially when some investigative roles that could exist will seem useful to inexperienced players, but in practice really won't be. The same goes for a role like bodyguard. If someone has a bodyguard ability, they are going to think it is zomg-amazing, and try to acquire however many RP are necessary for it to work to it's best potential(I am obviously speaking from the hypothetical position that a bodyguard role exists at all). But in reality, bodyguard is an almost completely worthless role, unless you magically get to there being very few people in the game without anyone ever finding out about it(read: this never happens). If such a role is in the game, unless having X RP turns them into a Doc, they shouldn't collect RP. Ever. But they will.
There are plenty of other examples. I literally came up with that one in 20 seconds.
How about this. How would YOU propose that the town coordinate how/when/etc Surveying is handled, without a mass claim? I'm all ears.
Yes (5): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion, Kraj, E_P
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
Yes (6): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion, Kraj, E_P, DRey
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
i would like zajnet to claim first but i agree about what someone said that we should not wait too much for claiming, i dont want to give scum time to read and ajust their claiming, so we should not claim without defined order.
@zindabad can you to provide us a random order for claiming?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
DRey is in no uncertain terms saying Zajnet is scum for his post about Kraj...but he's not voting for Zajnet. Why?
unvote
vote DRey
T2: GGElfdraziGG
Extended: GGElves!GG
EDH: BBMarrow-GnawerBB + RGRosheen MeandererRG + UUMemnarchUU
Yes (7): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion, Kraj, E_P, DRey, Vezok
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
So there are people who don't care in what room they are. That's good. I'll say more about my role after we get the order.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
this is ridiculous, so are you certain im scum?
how can town be ever be really sure of anything?
the answer is: we cannot, only scum can be sure.
so i ask you again, you sure im scum?
EWP: also, ive already said it before, i dont vote lightly, read my only finished game to see (king arthur mafia), on the whole game ive only voted two guys, but FOSed an untold number of times.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Correction: Your role.
He's not going to do that.
Lost_Profit
dropkickdude
etherealscorpions
vezokpiraka
Archmage Eternal
DRey
Wrath_of_DoG
Heartwork
TheIceMan
Fenris
jdisawesomesauce
Kraj
Zajnet
Alpha Werewolf
Emo_Pinata
Gigas1
Infinis
Arcadic
tordeck
ThisUserHasBeenCloned
AsianInvasion
Town doesn't ask questions like this.
That's probably why you got mislynched: Because you were acting like scum.
Doesn't read that way to me at all. In a game with only a couple really experienced players, getting the rest of the players to feel like we'll just trounce them if we're scum is a great way to nullify the experience we bring to the table.
Mostly because I don't mass claim without consensus. But I think you're right about forcing it, and frankly this game is already turning into everything that made me quit mafia, so screw it.
I am High Priest Rohan, Town Priest, Bronzebeard. In addition to surveying, I have a progressing investigative ability. The first time I target someone the mod picks a night at random and I learn who targeted them on that night. The second time I target them the mod picks at random again and I learn who they targeted on that night. The third time I target them, I get a straight-up alignment. I can spend 4 RP to get an additional shot of my ability. But I can't do anything but survey while in the Condemned Halls.
This. Because I haven't a clue whether my role is worth collecting relics for. It's reasonably good in the early game unless we move to the CH in which I sit around looking like a douche. After a couple nights it's pretty worthless. Unless I rack up a crapload of RP, in which case it's broken. But I'm not going to hoard RP because I might be able to do something really good with them when other people couple use them more effectively.
If I'm unsure of the best way to utilize my own role, I'm sure as hell not trusting everyone else to have it all figured out.
Kinda. But I like this post.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I am Glorin Steelbrow, Town Priest, Bronzebeard.
Yes (8): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion, Kraj, E_P, DRey, Vezok, dkd
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
I think that a massclaim is a great idea, and I have no problem claiming at this time. I am Kurdran Wildhammer, Vanilla Town. Obviously I am of the Wildhammer clan.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
You can't do anything?
Not even Survey?
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I'm fine with the list AI posted.
Mass-Claim?
Yes (9): Cyan, Ambassador Laquatus, AsianInvasion, Kraj, E_P, DRey, Vezok, dkd, Arcadic
No (4): Tordeck, jdisawesomesauce, Zajnet, Alpha Werewolf
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
who gave you the right to speak on zindabad's behalf?
look, i apreciate your initiative, but i dont trust your list, sorry.
@DKD: DO NOT RESPOND IT YET.
@everyone: this mass claim is a mess, DO NOT CLAIM until we decide the order of the claims.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
He 'answered for Zindabad' because anyone that has played more than 2 games of mafia knows that the Mod is never going to interact with a game in that fashion.
And if you 'don't trust his list', what is wrong with it?
Why don't you be a little more of a drama queen? It doesn't matter who made the order. You don't even know how he came up with it. What if it was just randomed? Is it still untrustworthy then?
DRey, are you a gimmick of the player known as Tilde?
I am Dheldormu, Bronze Dragon, Neutral Seeker. I win (and leave the game) once I have 12 relics.
I can:
-Reset my corruption to zero at the cost of some of my relics
-Avoid 1 Nightkill
-Pick a player and night, and find out everything they did that night.
I have no problem searching minimally the first few nights in order to let more important roles get relics faster, but starting night 2/3 at the latest I will be searching to fulfill my win condition as fast as possible.
If people are worried about me playing for the town, consider that I like being town more than scum in general, because I enjoy scumhunting. And if that doesn't persuade you, realize also that I have abilities to protect me from the scum and to benefit the town, but not vice-versa.
The list is the list from the first page. I believe its simply the order players signed up in. I wouldn't expect mod help on this, however, because he knows all roles/alignments and he is incapable of creating an unbiased list.
Why does this matter. There is next to nothing to base suitable suspicion on, and thus any list will be more or less random.
In fact, I like haphazardly claiming when doing massclaims - the timing people choose to go at can be a tell in itself.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
sorry, i didnt know that. well i supose i agree with AI list then.
nothing particular (i dont like the provider of it though), if hes scum, setting the order of the list its huge.
no
EWP: LP said the list is from zindabads, so i now fully agree to follow it.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.