So, you think that DYH is scum, but you want to kill N_A instead?
Reading is tech
Quote from why dkd is not voting for DYH »
-Until I get some idea as to the extent of the bastard-moddery in this game, I will be playing it as if there were none. Therefor, I am inclined to take DYH's claim and subsequent mod-confirmation at face value. Meaning, I do believe he is unlynchable today.
********
Quote from AI »
As happy as I am that people agree with me, I would love to see some kind of justification. I get that you're a sheep, but that doesn't exactly make me confident that you're also town.
Quote from Skander »
There's several problems here.
First off, this all doesn't jive with you previously saying that you agree with Az and that we should run it as a vanilla game.
Then we have the incongruity of you assuming that your cop role was bastardized but that we should take Vez at face value.
And there's the other incongruity of you saying on the one hand your role sucks and is useless but that some people should clear you with it.
I want answers to these points. I'm finding I can get better reads on people by examining their reaction to pressure.
I disagree here hugely.
I think that the "latching" here is you onto a vunerable post. He was being open about his rationale in those posts, and you're holding that against him?
This is similar to how when people say "/barn" and vote someone they don't get away with doing that. Just because the player is very aware of what they are doing, it doesn't change the mindset behind it.
To take the example to the extreme:
If I were to say right now, "I'm going to vote Ced because he is town and I want to mislynch him"
Despite the fact that I would be very open about my voting rationale, not a single person here would hesitate to vote me.
Well, if you want to play a guessing game, then I can tell you that you're wrong
That actually brings up a point for everyone else- given you and vez are frankly untrustworthly (I say frankly because you have at least been frank about being untrustworthy) do we want name claims up front from our traitors?
Did you read the entire exchange? Earlier on he implicitly denied the "confusion can be townie" thing. Possibly because he forgot what he was saying before, more likely because he saw confusion as a bad thing at that point and always. Either way, that's the point.
Now it's "implicitly", eh? Well, I'm glad I pursued this all the way down the rabbit hole. Maybe at the bottom I'll agree with you and maybe I won't, but I think we've at least come a certain distance from "obvious lie". Please point me to where you are saying it is implied.
I still think it's worth testing the lynch, bastard mod IS bastard after all.
You could be right - DYH may simply have an ability that enables him to post a message for the mod. Can it possibly be bad for us to try it and prove his unlynchability? Unvote, Vote DYH
I don't want to post reads because I may turn scum so my reads could help the town.
If after day 2 I am not dead I will provide reads.
Yeah I getchya. All these traitors...and lawyers...too many in one game...geeze. Hopefully you vanish tonight and we don't have to deal with this for the rest of the game.
You could be right - DYH may simply have an ability that enables him to post a message for the mod. Can it possibly be bad for us to try it and prove his unlynchability? Unvote, Vote DYH
Again avoiding any assumptions made due to the assertion that this is a "bastard mod game," generally bold moderator text indicates a game mechanic and/or change in game state. For instance, in Symbiote the scum team asked if we could use a robot to post a moderator message framing a townie as scum in a style similar to a public investigation. RobRoy informed us that we could only have the message appear in italics like other flavor scenes, and Azrael dismissed the idea entirely because it would only have a chance of working if it was posted in moderator bold instead.
DYH claims that there is a harmful side-effect to his ability, but did not state whether the side-effect affects him or others, nor did he state if simply using the ability causes the side-effect or if it has to prevent his lynch. If people want to lynch DYH (I know I do) it's better to wait until tomorrow because we don't know what will happen if we try to do it today aside from the safe bet that he's unlynchable.
Please take a stance. Fence-sitting is bad. What kind of posts are you waiting for? "Just kidding guys, I'm actually scum, gg."
Fine. My head says yes but my gut is stull unsure. =P
Vote Nom_Anor
I still can't really see claiming cop out of the blue as what a townie would do... it just seems so convenient for a scum to do that... and they would know if someone is scum or non-scum. That, coupled with all that WIFOM that happened a little while ago, it justl ooks a lot more scummy than townie.
Fine. My head says yes but my gut is stull unsure. =P
Vote Nom_Anor
I still can't really see claiming cop out of the blue as what a townie would do... it just seems so convenient for a scum to do that... and they would know if someone is scum or non-scum. That, coupled with all that WIFOM that happened a little while ago, it justl ooks a lot more scummy than townie.
This is one of those moments where I have to say please trust me. We can talk about NA tomorrow but until then it is very dangerous to do so. Yes it is role related info and bastard mod induced paranoia. Please wait a day with NA, and don't ask me to talk about him much until then.
The way this went down I believe V was only referring to himself talking about Nom but that anybody else could freely discuss him. Perhaps V can clarify?
I don't mind waiting a day on Nom if that's the case.
I didn't see that first go aorund. I'm not sure about it. Waiting a day isn't the end of the world, but in the oither extreme I can see a buddy trying to let Nom get a one-shot ability in. However, I don't read ~V~ as scum at all... Ugh, I'll keep my vote where it is. Gut feeling, what with the bastard moddery, I'm taking roles with a grain of salt.
Yes, yes it is.
Would you two like to go and read my claim again (619), then report back on how you feel afterwards?
Talore: Have you been scum before?
I don't understand how your claim effects my descision that DYH can't be lynched. Are you saying that we should vote you and force DYH to hammer? Because that seems a little risky.
I've never been scum, only town. (Vanilla, Doc, and De-Motivator)
Talore fence sits and is scummy as town. Let's lynch him.
...does anyone else understand this? [Talore does this a town, so let's lynch him] <-Doesn't seem to make much sense.
Yes, I do fence-sit as town. I think it's because I frequent the debate forum, and debate in real life, so I just naturally don't like to make absolute statements; which is magnified by being in a game where nothing is certain about people until they die (And even them, there are some godfather roles that reveal other alignments on death (Zebi's South Park role was a mafia godfather that appeared town to investigations but appeared to be a neutral survivor when he dies), but I digress.)
I usually don't jump right into main debates/issues when there's a ton of people because I usually have no further input, and barning doesn't help the town. In those situations, I often let the situation mature, then make a judgement call on who is scum from that, such as when DYH finished, I think the amount of pre-emtive, disdainful attack, with an early claim... just screamed scum to me. But again, I believe that people said as much, so I might as well provide some original input by proposing that we test his unlynchability, backing off when the mod announced that it was true.
Again avoiding any assumptions made due to the assertion that this is a "bastard mod game," generally bold moderator text indicates a game mechanic and/or change in game state. For instance, in Symbiote the scum team asked if we could use a robot to post a moderator message framing a townie as scum in a style similar to a public investigation. RobRoy informed us that we could only have the message appear in italics like other flavor scenes, and Azrael dismissed the idea entirely because it would only have a chance of working if it was posted in moderator bold instead.
DYH claims that there is a harmful side-effect to his ability, but did not state whether the side-effect affects him or others, nor did he state if simply using the ability causes the side-effect or if it has to prevent his lynch. If people want to lynch DYH (I know I do) it's better to wait until tomorrow because we don't know what will happen if we try to do it today aside from the safe bet that he's unlynchable.
We also don't know if he can do it every day or if it limited or whatever. Thus, he may actually be "unlynchable."
Yes, yes it is.
Would you two like to go and read my claim again (619), then report back on how you feel afterwards?
You've offered yourself up today several times but I don't think anyone's really commented on this.
What does everyone think about Ced's offer?
I think it makes sense given that he's claimed traitor and this is a nifty way to ensure that he doesn't turn, without having to waste a lynch on him.
Too extreme. In N_A's case, not only does he mention that he agrees with the points on AI (though he admittedly does not directly quote them), but he gave a reason why wagoning might be good for the town.
You "example" doesn't show this. An better one would be something like "I'm going to vote ced because I think he is town, but I also think that he is a traitor SS." Seems acceptable, yes?
Extreme examples are extremely flawed anyway. The "extreme" ones are open-and-shut, usually, while the actual event can be more up to debate.
OK.
Nom's reason why wagoning would be good for the town is completely backward (stifling conversation is not a good thing).
Your example is closer but way more townie than the Nom situation (it's not a self-aware wagon vote - it's a tactical decision).
Probably not appropriate to bring this up, because I see no evidence that you were looking at what N_A's mindset might be in your case.
??
What? That was the whole point. Nom having a scum mindset (looking for a good wagon to hop on to) rather than a town one (hunting scum).
As far as I can tell, you didn't answer my question. Try again.
As far as I can tell, you never asked me a question. Even going back I can't find one. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see one. Care to ask it agin or point me in the direction of it? I'm not trying to be a smart *** or anything, I just don't see one.
Would the Saudi Arabian "Delegate" like to step forward?
/raises hand.
This makes me feel even better about TFF with him coming forward. He didn't have any way to know (other than what's in his PM) what information I have about him. The information isn't much, other than I inadvertently offended him at a prior conference and that I knew the UAE delegate was here. It was simply a test to see if that person would reveal himself.
I'm not even going to attempt to defend my behavior on Thursday; it was ridiculous, and I apologize.
@RafK: This is not Court Mafia; I figured someone would draw that comparison, though; no, this was just me being an immature idiot. If you all decide to lynch me tomorrow, so be it; I won't, and can't, stop you.
Before someone comes out with "liar, liar!", I simply told TFF he was wrong when he inferred that balancing the role on scum meant making it every other day. That still wouldn't balance it - IMO, it's too powerful, particularly since it wasn't revealed who did it - I said that I did it, myself, but if I hadn't told you, you wouldn't know. This is one case where I certainly wouldn't have played the card I did in Court Mafia as scum for that very reason.
I was being a smart ass with the "that's what townies do, right?" post where I claimed a side effect - the side effect is simply that I can't use it tomorrow. I can stop a lynch on day 3 again.
Anyhow, I'm back, but I'm tired from my trip. I'll be behind at work having been out for two days, so I'm probably not fully caught up until Tuesday. If you have any direct questions (other than why I acted the way I did, that's the answer above), just bold them for me in a new post, please.
@DKD: If you all would rather lynch Ced tomorrow or any future date, you won't have to force me to do anything; I'll do the hammer. I've screwed up sufficiently enough that I'll always be a wild card on alignment, and with N_A exposed (seriously, all of you considering a vote/voting him are scummy) I don't suspect he'll ever be of much use, unfortunately.
This makes me feel even better about TFF with him coming forward. He didn't have any way to know (other than what's in his PM) what information I have about him. The information isn't much, other than I inadvertently offended him at a prior conference and that I knew the UAE delegate was here. It was simply a test to see if that person would reveal himself.
Why do you feel better about TFF? The only reason I can see for you both to know the other Delegate is here is to bring that information to light after a massclaim in which someone lied about where they were from. The only people who ever need to lie like that are scum. That would indicate that one or both of you is scum.
@DKD: If you all would rather lynch Ced tomorrow or any future date, you won't have to force me to do anything; I'll do the hammer. I've screwed up sufficiently enough that I'll always be a wild card on alignment, and with N_A exposed (seriously, all of you considering a vote/voting him are scummy) I don't suspect he'll ever be of much use, unfortunately.
You say "tomorrow or any future date." Do you mean to imply that you would not be cooperative today?
A point in Nom_Anor's favor, but nothing I'd rely on without a better sense of what makes ~V~ so confident. And even then, we're assuming that ~V~ has pro-town interests in mind.
The way this went down I believe V was only referring to himself talking about Nom but that anybody else could freely discuss him. Perhaps V can clarify?
I don't mind waiting a day on Nom if that's the case.
It sounded to me like ~V~ has information that exonerates Nom_Anor, though said information is admitted self-extrapolated to come to the conclusion that Nom_Anor is town and/or telling the truth.
As far as I can tell, you never asked me a question. Even going back I can't find one. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see one. Care to ask it agin or point me in the direction of it? I'm not trying to be a smart *** or anything, I just don't see one.
As happy as I am that people agree with me, I would love to see some kind of justification. I get that you're a sheep, but that doesn't exactly make me confident that you're also town.
You quoted me in your own post 889 but acted as if I was asking someone other than you for their opinion.
@DKD: If you all would rather lynch Ced tomorrow or any future date, you won't have to force me to do anything; I'll do the hammer. I've screwed up sufficiently enough that I'll always be a wild card on alignment, and with N_A exposed (seriously, all of you considering a vote/voting him are scummy) I don't suspect he'll ever be of much use, unfortunately.
The problem being that by then ced395 may already be scum by then. Other than that, I'm all for it.
Why do you feel better about TFF? The only reason I can see for you both to know the other Delegate is here is to bring that information to light after a massclaim in which someone lied about where they were from. The only people who ever need to lie like that are scum. That would indicate that one or both of you is scum.
I have information regarding one other player as well. Between this and your "confusion" over whether you have a name, I'm starting to strongly suspect that your PM is very different from mine.
TFF was one of the people I was most interested in counter-attacking against.
Hmm. I have no idea what his scum meta looks like. As town he tends to be pretty open and does a good job of scum-hunting, but this observation is largely based on a game that's over a year old.
You quoted me in your own post 889 but acted as if I was asking someone other than you for their opinion.
To be fair, what I posted in 889 was my answer to that, which actually isn't a question tecnically - which is what was throwing me off. You said you wanted "some kind of justification" to which I said "I want answers to these points. I'm finding I can get better reads on people by examining their reaction to pressure." Does that not satisfy?
Quote from AI »
I have information regarding one other player as well. Between this and your "confusion" over whether you have a name, I'm starting to strongly suspect that your PM is very different from mine.
I have no information regarding any other player. And I was not confused over whether I had a name, as I specifically said I didn't. TFF indicated he had a name. I took that to mean something specific like "Jack O'Neill" as opposed to "SGC Delegate." I thought perhaps that the terrorists may have specific names as opposed to countries of origin, hence my vote on TFF. I wanted answers -> I got them -> I was satisfied -> I unvoted.
Why do you feel better about TFF? The only reason I can see for you both to know the other Delegate is here is to bring that information to light after a massclaim in which someone lied about where they were from. The only people who ever need to lie like that are scum. That would indicate that one or both of you is scum.
This is a huge stretch.
Quote from DYH »
You say "tomorrow or any future date." Do you mean to imply that you would not be cooperative today?
Interesting wording. But no, I was mis-thinking that I couldn't die today, period, which simply isn't true. If the consensus is ultimately to lynch Ced today, I'll hammer him, but I think that's just stupid. It'd be no different than lynching Vezok - which has already been discussed - except that Ced is a much better analyst.
Unsure
Wrath_of_DoG
RafaelK
Nom_Anor
~Tilde~
Ace
DYH
Syrenz
TheFooFish
(this list is too long, IMO. but the game is slowing down a little, so I can move some people to other categories over the next few days. Either that or I can just stall a bit if you guys want to make use of my ability)
Leaning Town
AsianInvasion
Azrael
Emo_Pinata
Zchinque
Town
vezokpiraka
(I'd like to get some people in here on play alone eventually - but I'm not sure on anybody in the leaning town column yet)
Is there a reason I'm the only one left off, other than you?
Has he ever done one before?
He has. I can't remember which game it was, leaning Kaizers, but I know I've seen one from him before. Granted, it wasn't very good, but he did it.
I want answers to these points. I'm finding I can get better reads on people by examining their reaction to pressure.
Ok, I'm gonna have to /barn DYH on this. Has N_A acted scummy? For sure. Is he a claimed and un-CCd cop? Absolutely. Therefore, he will not be lynched today.
Or, at least, I'll take no part in it.
I still can't really see claiming cop out of the blue as what a townie would do... it just seems so convenient for a scum to do that... and they would know if someone is scum or non-scum. That, coupled with all that WIFOM that happened a little while ago, it justl ooks a lot more scummy than townie.
Have you (or anyone else in this game) ever seen a scum false-claim cop D1 and get away with it? I haven't. D2, yes, but not D1.
You've offered yourself up today several times but I don't think anyone's really commented on this.
What does everyone think about Ced's offer?
I think it is a good offer, and I applaud him for making it, but I'm not interested in going through with that now. I'm feeling better about DYH and both involved are far too valuable, if they are/remain town, and I'm reluctant to kill them both D1.
This makes me feel even better about TFF with him coming forward. He didn't have any way to know (other than what's in his PM) what information I have about him. The information isn't much, other than I inadvertently offended him at a prior conference and that I knew the UAE delegate was here. It was simply a test to see if that person would reveal himself.
I'm not even going to attempt to defend my behavior on Thursday; it was ridiculous, and I apologize.
@RafK: This is not Court Mafia; I figured someone would draw that comparison, though; no, this was just me being an immature idiot. If you all decide to lynch me tomorrow, so be it; I won't, and can't, stop you.
Before someone comes out with "liar, liar!", I simply told TFF he was wrong when he inferred that balancing the role on scum meant making it every other day. That still wouldn't balance it - IMO, it's too powerful, particularly since it wasn't revealed who did it - I said that I did it, myself, but if I hadn't told you, you wouldn't know. This is one case where I certainly wouldn't have played the card I did in Court Mafia as scum for that very reason.
I was being a smart ass with the "that's what townies do, right?" post where I claimed a side effect - the side effect is simply that I can't use it tomorrow. I can stop a lynch on day 3 again.
Anyhow, I'm back, but I'm tired from my trip. I'll be behind at work having been out for two days, so I'm probably not fully caught up until Tuesday. If you have any direct questions (other than why I acted the way I did, that's the answer above), just bold them for me in a new post, please.
Apology accepted. As I said earlier, I feel much better about you now.
DYH is scum. The ability loses power if it's only the other day. And I have a feeling that he may only use his ability on himself.
Ok, so here's what I'm thinking. We all know Vez wants to be lynched today. He's already admitted that. He has decided to be as absolutely uncooperative as possible. He's done nothing to further the town in our endeavors. I will not support a lynch on him today, as that's precisely what he wants, but I don't think we should expect anything out of him.
Interesting wording. But no, I was mis-thinking that I couldn't die today, period, which simply isn't true. If the consensus is ultimately to lynch Ced today, I'll hammer him, but I think that's just stupid. It'd be no different than lynching Vezok - which has already been discussed - except that Ced is a much better analyst.
Too bad their roles aren't reversed. It'd be perfect.
Indeed. But did you really expect me to say: lololol I'm scum in my other game, and nobody even suspects it, while I'm town in both my other games and getting called obvscum?
And Vez pretty much claimed scum. Which makes me want to lynch him.
As opposed to my claiming cop, which
1. The scum might not even believe.
2. At worst ends with me shot, which isn't that bad for the town since my role is worthless anyway.
3. I could be lying and totally be un-nightkillable
Cop really isn't a power role here. But, many people seem to think it is, and so I see no reason not to be confirmed town in the eyes of half the town.
This is sounding more and more like his claim to be an SK in Canada mafia...
DYH has drawn a lot of attention, but isn't likely to be scum.
I've drawn a lot of attention, but ~V~ has a plan for me, so I'm getting a reprive.
TFF and DYH have a slight link.
indomitable bug had a wagon on him, and it kind of died out with the attention everyone else was getting.
That's about all we have at the moment.
Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like time to start a new wagon on someone. I might go for a reread over the next few days, depending on how my classes are going, but no guarantees.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I'm going to revise my opinion on Ced. I still think we should utilize his ability, just not today. Even if he's turned tonight we can always get rid of him tomorrow.
I don't exactly get the TFF connection. Did he claim the Emirati delegate by asking DYH that question?
Why do you feel better about TFF? The only reason I can see for you both to know the other Delegate is here is to bring that information to light after a massclaim in which someone lied about where they were from. The only people who ever need to lie like that are scum. That would indicate that one or both of you is scum.
QFT
This, plus the fact that DYH doesn't seem at all concerned about my alignment and is just trying to use this weak connection to confirm us both, plus the reasons why I voted him initially make me still fairly confident that he is scum.
And as for the "balance" of his ability on scum, I'm assuming that balance is supposed to be my role.
Talore fence sits and is scummy as town. Let's lynch him.
What are you, the most obvious "I have some kind of condition if you lynch me" player?
You're down-right horrible. People won't lynch you purely because you ask them to, and if you expect them to lynch you after you've practically given away the fact that you either become Mafia or kill the lyncher, you're just bad at this. I'll have a case on you in about an hour.
@TFF: That makes no sense; the ability's source is still unknown without my telling you, there's no "balance" in that.
I'm not 'concerned about your alignment' because the information provides me nothing solid, and it would be stupid to assume one way or the other because of it [particularly in a bastard mod game]. Your reaction to my asking you to come out was what mattered to me; it's why I asked. I figured the Emirati doesn't come out if he has something to hide.
I'm certainly not trying to "confirm" us both - I feel my ability confirms me, yes, but as far as you go, your reaction seemed townie to me. I'm not clearing you based on it, but it does make me feel better about you.
DO I have to read this game?
Just moved into my aweosme new house and I have a lot of trouble finding time to get on the computer.
I didn't like Vezo from the point I read the above comment. Not because he could easily be replaced, but because it infers that he really doesn't need to read the game, only try to be lynched to activate some ability or win-condition. And, even if that's not the case, I don't like the tone of it.
I say both Some One and I bug are scums.
I will not vote until I see a Votecount.
I learned my lesson.
Either,
A): Two of those people are actually Scum, and one was put in there to pressure the third player.
B): None of those players are Scum, and the other two (who aren't Vezo) were put in there for pressure.
C): Vezo wants to force a lynch on himself.
Well people are voting for some one.
Why shouldn't I?
Back to serious stuff. I believe he is scum. He usually just lurks there until a case is brought on him. I don't like him defending like there is no case at all.
Only scum do that from what I have seen
The first comment would be a nice example of "how to barn". The second is another way for him to make people believe he's Scum, because then he'll turn to Scum. That, or he's a really, really bad Mafia player.
Note: I had planned to continue the PBPA, but MH would like me not to. So, by request, I won't continue it.
There's no reason to do a case on him right now when we know lynching him is a terrible idea.
I am interested in how you see all his votes as null tells, when that's often how we can glean information from people. Please explain.
They've already been explained by other people.
Not really null, just no need to explain, at the moment. And, now that I think about it, Vezo wanting to be lynched may be a cover for him not to be lynched.
Not really null, just no need to explain, at the moment. And, now that I think about it, Vezo wanting to be lynched may be a cover for him not to be lynched.
Given a)Ced and b) that his claim would invite vigs or such I don't think this is a possibility.
Ok, I'm gonna have to /barn DYH on this. Has N_A acted scummy? For sure. Is he a claimed and un-CCd cop? Absolutely. Therefore, he will not be lynched today.
Or, at least, I'll take no part in it.
I think it is a good offer, and I applaud him for making it, but I'm not interested in going through with that now. I'm feeling better about DYH and both involved are far too valuable, if they are/remain town, and I'm reluctant to kill them both D1.
Why are you resolute that you want this to occur today?
1. Just because I vote someone doesn't mean I want them lynched.
2. I think it was extremely noble of him to make that offer as well.
3. I never said I wanted it to happen today. I merely asked for a clarification. As of this moment I am still unsure if I would like to pursue that option.
@TFF: That makes no sense; the ability's source is still unknown without my telling you, there's no "balance" in that.
This is accurate.
Quote from DYH »
I'm not 'concerned about your alignment' because the information provides me nothing solid, and it would be stupid to assume one way or the other because of it [particularly in a bastard mod game]. Your reaction to my asking you to come out was what mattered to me; it's why I asked. I figured the Emirati doesn't come out if he has something to hide.
I'm certainly not trying to "confirm" us both - I feel my ability confirms me, yes, but as far as you go, your reaction seemed townie to me. I'm not clearing you based on it, but it does make me feel better about you.
What if I told you I thought the scum team was rather small (like 2ish) with a bunch of potential traitors in the game to throw behavioral analysis out the window? Would that balance your ability for you? You're way too confident about your claim clearing you.
DYH has drawn a lot of attention, but isn't likely to be scum.
I've drawn a lot of attention, but ~V~ has a plan for me, so I'm getting a reprive.
TFF and DYH have a slight link.
indomitable bug had a wagon on him, and it kind of died out with the attention everyone else was getting.
That's about all we have at the moment.
I'll go with that summary, sort of. I disagree that DYH isn't likely to be scum... he's disavowed that he was using his ability day 1 to clear himself, and then gone right back to saying:
Quote from DYH »
I'm certainly not trying to "confirm" us both - I feel my ability confirms me, yes
My read on him is that he was trying to confirm himself with his ability, and then realised that absolutely no-one buying it and has pulled a U-turn, but he still can't quite help himself from trying to keep the previous strategy alive. He knows an ability like this which can't be used every day (and which for all we know can't be used twice on the same person or something like that) does not confirm him at all, especially in a so-called "bastard mod" game, so trying this on is a very bad sign.
All that said, I'm not interested in pulling clever pants tricks with "making" DYH hammer ced though, partly because I think ced is playing as town at least for now and partly because if DYH is scum he won't do it anyway (so if he DOES do it, we're down two townies; brilliant!). Definitely on notice for tomorrow. We may have more information then anyway.
I also think the wagon on ibug went away for better reasons than "attention everyone else was getting". Combination of me never being convinced, and Azrael become unconvinced (and in fairness, a bit of sheep-following-Azrael, although DYH's disappointment in that way felt just a touch like aggravation at losing the designated mislynch
Speaking of ibug, 526? Really? In which he explains he was confused and thought Azrael's hydravote thing was scummy UNTIL it was explained that it was just a fancy FOS? Something that was indeed explained to him BEFORE he unvoted, correct? I'm not seeing even the implied lie here, and after chasing this for a half dozen posts or so, I think that's because this "lie" does not exist.
Hmm. DYH, did you not also trumpet this "obvious lie" by i.bug?
Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like time to start a new wagon on someone. I might go for a reread over the next few days, depending on how my classes are going, but no guarantees.
Probably a good time for me to get back on the horse re: AI (there's now a much larger sample size to analyze anyway).
EBWODP: The comment about 526 and ibug was of course a response to ced's latest comment on that subject, not to Nom Anor. I just forgot to insert a quote of ced's post.
vote nakamura. I try and try to be reasonable and no one believes me, ah well. Nakamura you have delayed ad ignored me long enough to receive my vote, now please tell me why I was scum on your list and more importantly why you removed me and DYH from it in the second posting.
Just posting to say that mtgs is unblocked, because I know I posted in Red Dwarf but I'm not sure if I did here. I am reading, slowly, and am up to about page 11 at 40ppp.
You have absolutely no leg to stand on asking for this. Provide what others have asked of you and, maybe then, you'll get what you want.
It's called teamwork. Google it.
Quote from Wrath_of_DoG »
Just posting to say that mtgs is unblocked, because I know I posted in Red Dwarf but I'm not sure if I did here. I am reading, slowly, and am up to about page 11 at 40ppp.
You posted there that you were coming here, then never posted anything here.
What if I told you I thought the scum team was rather small (like 2ish) with a bunch of potential traitors in the game to throw behavioral analysis out the window? Would that balance your ability for you? You're way too confident about your claim clearing you.
I am still strongly of the opinion that this role is too overpowered to be on scum, period. I'm not a traitor, and if this role could be recruited into the mafia, it'd be completely busted. The ability to stop a self-lynch without exposing the source is completely imbalanced on a mafia member, IMO.
If the scum team is that small and you have some sort of gauge on the number of traitors, then we might need to consider having Vezok hammer Ced (and lynch/vig me whenever; whatever). Killing two traitors at once could be worth considering.
I'll go with that summary, sort of. I disagree that DYH isn't likely to be scum... he's disavowed that he was using his ability day 1 to clear himself, and then gone right back to saying:
My read on him is that he was trying to confirm himself with his ability, and then realised that absolutely no-one buying it and has pulled a U-turn, but he still can't quite help himself from trying to keep the previous strategy alive. He knows an ability like this which can't be used every day (and which for all we know can't be used twice on the same person or something like that) does not confirm him at all, especially in a so-called "bastard mod" game, so trying this on is a very bad sign.
There's a significant difference between this role and the one I had in Court Mafia. That was a one-time deal. Please explain to me, Raf, what the purpose would be in exposing that I'm the source of this role (as scum), when I simply could have sat on the role, waited for me - or more importantly a scum buddy - to get into real trouble and use it without fear of exposure. I'm so tired of the "bastard mod" conversation - if we're going to play that card on every single thing that comes up, might as well not play mafia at all and just randomly lynch people.
Your quotes here are terrible - I was accused of trying to confirm both me and TFF, which is not at all what I was doing - do I feel I should be confirmed? Absolutely. TFF? No, that's a read based on a reaction.
Quote from RafK »
All that said, I'm not interested in pulling clever pants tricks with "making" DYH hammer ced though, partly because I think ced is playing as town at least for now and partly because if DYH is scum he won't do it anyway (so if he DOES do it, we're down two townies; brilliant!). Definitely on notice for tomorrow. We may have more information then anyway.
Think about this for two seconds, Raf; if I don't hammer Ced (because I'm scum) - who is going to? One of my "scum buddies" to get himself killed? Brilliant! The pretty obvious solution at that point would be to lynch me.
Quote from RafK »
I also think the wagon on ibug went away for better reasons than "attention everyone else was getting". Combination of me never being convinced, and Azrael become unconvinced (and in fairness, a bit of sheep-following-Azrael, although DYH's disappointment in that way felt just a touch like aggravation at losing the designated mislynch.
It went away because Az lost interest in it, we had a disagreement in which I blew up, and now here we are. The bottom line is that if Azrael were still on iBug, he'd be claiming by now. Fact.
Quote from RafK »
Speaking of ibug, 526? Really? In which he explains he was confused and thought Azrael's hydravote thing was scummy UNTIL it was explained that it was just a fancy FOS? Something that was indeed explained to him BEFORE he unvoted, correct? I'm not seeing even the implied lie here, and after chasing this for a half dozen posts or so, I think that's because this "lie" does not exist.
Hmm. DYH, did you not also trumpet this "obvious lie" by i.bug?
Yes I did trumpet iBug's obvious lie because it was. He unvoted, made a smarmy comment about how Az was trying to confuse people (implying he was scummy), then claimed he was leaning townie on him. The pieces do not fit.
There's a significant difference between this role and the one I had in Court Mafia. That was a one-time deal. Please explain to me, Raf, what the purpose would be in exposing that I'm the source of this role (as scum), when I simply could have sat on the role, waited for me - or more importantly a scum buddy - to get into real trouble and use it without fear of exposure.
Town points. That is what you seem to currently be using it for.
I'm so tired of the "bastard mod" conversation - if we're going to play that card on every single thing that comes up, might as well not play mafia at all and just randomly lynch people.
I've been thinking about this myself. On the one hand, ignoring the fact that this is bastard game is really silly, when the mod makes explicit mention of the fact (unless of course the bastardness is that there isn't really any bastardness :ria:), but on the other hand we don't want to just call everything bastardness. I think we're currently at a nice middle-ground; we're taking vezok and ced at face value, but you and Nom are not being believed solely on the fact that normally your roles would clear you (at least that's my view on you two; others have expressed clearing one or both of you based solely on your claims).
Regardless, there is a large difference between analyzing behaviour and just randomly lynching people, wouldn't you say?
Ok. This is one of the last few times I'll be able to check on before I head to Amsterdam.
I want to get to TFF at some point due to the way he hopped onto DYH's initial wagon, and his activity pattern up to this point. He's usually a better townie than he's been so far this game. He seems to be in submarine mode.
I'm not happy with DYH yet, especially with the "my role couldn't possibly be balanced on scum" defense. This is a bastard game. You know that. The entire point of bastard games is to come up with the unthinkable, then do it, and laugh at the town.
So, still keeping an eye on him.
Quote from Rafaelk »
My read on him is that he was trying to confirm himself with his ability, and then realised that absolutely no-one buying it and has pulled a U-turn, but he still can't quite help himself from trying to keep the previous strategy alive. He knows an ability like this which can't be used every day (and which for all we know can't be used twice on the same person or something like that) does not confirm him at all, especially in a so-called "bastard mod" game, so trying this on is a very bad sign.
Reading is tech
********
I want answers to these points. I'm finding I can get better reads on people by examining their reaction to pressure.
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This is similar to how when people say "/barn" and vote someone they don't get away with doing that. Just because the player is very aware of what they are doing, it doesn't change the mindset behind it.
To take the example to the extreme:
If I were to say right now, "I'm going to vote Ced because he is town and I want to mislynch him"
Despite the fact that I would be very open about my voting rationale, not a single person here would hesitate to vote me.
That actually brings up a point for everyone else- given you and vez are frankly untrustworthly (I say frankly because you have at least been frank about being untrustworthy) do we want name claims up front from our traitors?
Now it's "implicitly", eh? Well, I'm glad I pursued this all the way down the rabbit hole. Maybe at the bottom I'll agree with you and maybe I won't, but I think we've at least come a certain distance from "obvious lie". Please point me to where you are saying it is implied.
I think everyone would assume you were joking, actually.
Geeze...all these lawyers...what possibly draws them into this?
I was going to ask you if you'd like to do anything, but you answer that later.
You could be right - DYH may simply have an ability that enables him to post a message for the mod. Can it possibly be bad for us to try it and prove his unlynchability? Unvote, Vote DYH
Yeah I getchya. All these traitors...and lawyers...too many in one game...geeze. Hopefully you vanish tonight and we don't have to deal with this for the rest of the game.
Please take a stance. Fence-sitting is bad. What kind of posts are you waiting for? "Just kidding guys, I'm actually scum, gg."
As far as I can tell, you didn't answer my question. Try again.
Again avoiding any assumptions made due to the assertion that this is a "bastard mod game," generally bold moderator text indicates a game mechanic and/or change in game state. For instance, in Symbiote the scum team asked if we could use a robot to post a moderator message framing a townie as scum in a style similar to a public investigation. RobRoy informed us that we could only have the message appear in italics like other flavor scenes, and Azrael dismissed the idea entirely because it would only have a chance of working if it was posted in moderator bold instead.
DYH claims that there is a harmful side-effect to his ability, but did not state whether the side-effect affects him or others, nor did he state if simply using the ability causes the side-effect or if it has to prevent his lynch. If people want to lynch DYH (I know I do) it's better to wait until tomorrow because we don't know what will happen if we try to do it today aside from the safe bet that he's unlynchable.
Fine. My head says yes but my gut is stull unsure. =P
Vote Nom_Anor
I still can't really see claiming cop out of the blue as what a townie would do... it just seems so convenient for a scum to do that... and they would know if someone is scum or non-scum. That, coupled with all that WIFOM that happened a little while ago, it justl ooks a lot more scummy than townie.
I don't know, this seems pretty straightforward to me.
Okay, it was my impression that Tilde generally plays like this so I wanted to know if you were familiar with his playstyle at all when you voted.
Do you think that Vez could be scum?
What do you think about this?:
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Yeah, OK, not the best example.
The way this went down I believe V was only referring to himself talking about Nom but that anybody else could freely discuss him. Perhaps V can clarify?
I don't mind waiting a day on Nom if that's the case.
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I didn't see that first go aorund. I'm not sure about it. Waiting a day isn't the end of the world, but in the oither extreme I can see a buddy trying to let Nom get a one-shot ability in. However, I don't read ~V~ as scum at all... Ugh, I'll keep my vote where it is. Gut feeling, what with the bastard moddery, I'm taking roles with a grain of salt.
I don't understand how your claim effects my descision that DYH can't be lynched. Are you saying that we should vote you and force DYH to hammer? Because that seems a little risky.
I've never been scum, only town. (Vanilla, Doc, and De-Motivator)
...does anyone else understand this? [Talore does this a town, so let's lynch him] <-Doesn't seem to make much sense.
Yes, I do fence-sit as town. I think it's because I frequent the debate forum, and debate in real life, so I just naturally don't like to make absolute statements; which is magnified by being in a game where nothing is certain about people until they die (And even them, there are some godfather roles that reveal other alignments on death (Zebi's South Park role was a mafia godfather that appeared town to investigations but appeared to be a neutral survivor when he dies), but I digress.)
I usually don't jump right into main debates/issues when there's a ton of people because I usually have no further input, and barning doesn't help the town. In those situations, I often let the situation mature, then make a judgement call on who is scum from that, such as when DYH finished, I think the amount of pre-emtive, disdainful attack, with an early claim... just screamed scum to me. But again, I believe that people said as much, so I might as well provide some original input by proposing that we test his unlynchability, backing off when the mod announced that it was true.
We also don't know if he can do it every day or if it limited or whatever. Thus, he may actually be "unlynchable."
You've offered yourself up today several times but I don't think anyone's really commented on this.
What does everyone think about Ced's offer?
I think it makes sense given that he's claimed traitor and this is a nifty way to ensure that he doesn't turn, without having to waste a lynch on him.
OK.
Nom's reason why wagoning would be good for the town is completely backward (stifling conversation is not a good thing).
Your example is closer but way more townie than the Nom situation (it's not a self-aware wagon vote - it's a tactical decision).
??
What? That was the whole point. Nom having a scum mindset (looking for a good wagon to hop on to) rather than a town one (hunting scum).
Truly, your ways are mysterious.
As far as I can tell, you never asked me a question. Even going back I can't find one. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see one. Care to ask it agin or point me in the direction of it? I'm not trying to be a smart *** or anything, I just don't see one.
Yes, you're a Super Saint. But if DYH is actually unlynchable, then how do we pressure him into hammering you?
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/raises hand.
This makes me feel even better about TFF with him coming forward. He didn't have any way to know (other than what's in his PM) what information I have about him. The information isn't much, other than I inadvertently offended him at a prior conference and that I knew the UAE delegate was here. It was simply a test to see if that person would reveal himself.
I'm not even going to attempt to defend my behavior on Thursday; it was ridiculous, and I apologize.
@RafK: This is not Court Mafia; I figured someone would draw that comparison, though; no, this was just me being an immature idiot. If you all decide to lynch me tomorrow, so be it; I won't, and can't, stop you.
Before someone comes out with "liar, liar!", I simply told TFF he was wrong when he inferred that balancing the role on scum meant making it every other day. That still wouldn't balance it - IMO, it's too powerful, particularly since it wasn't revealed who did it - I said that I did it, myself, but if I hadn't told you, you wouldn't know. This is one case where I certainly wouldn't have played the card I did in Court Mafia as scum for that very reason.
I was being a smart ass with the "that's what townies do, right?" post where I claimed a side effect - the side effect is simply that I can't use it tomorrow. I can stop a lynch on day 3 again.
Anyhow, I'm back, but I'm tired from my trip. I'll be behind at work having been out for two days, so I'm probably not fully caught up until Tuesday. If you have any direct questions (other than why I acted the way I did, that's the answer above), just bold them for me in a new post, please.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Why do you feel better about TFF? The only reason I can see for you both to know the other Delegate is here is to bring that information to light after a massclaim in which someone lied about where they were from. The only people who ever need to lie like that are scum. That would indicate that one or both of you is scum.
You say "tomorrow or any future date." Do you mean to imply that you would not be cooperative today?
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Good to have your opinion on the record.
A point in Nom_Anor's favor, but nothing I'd rely on without a better sense of what makes ~V~ so confident. And even then, we're assuming that ~V~ has pro-town interests in mind.
It sounded to me like ~V~ has information that exonerates Nom_Anor, though said information is admitted self-extrapolated to come to the conclusion that Nom_Anor is town and/or telling the truth.
Are you serious?
You quoted me in your own post 889 but acted as if I was asking someone other than you for their opinion.
The problem being that by then ced395 may already be scum by then. Other than that, I'm all for it.
I have information regarding one other player as well. Between this and your "confusion" over whether you have a name, I'm starting to strongly suspect that your PM is very different from mine.
Good question. Corollary: It does not sound like DYH's ability prevents lynch-related vigging, so shouldn't ced's ability kill DYH regardless?
Hmm. I have no idea what his scum meta looks like. As town he tends to be pretty open and does a good job of scum-hunting, but this observation is largely based on a game that's over a year old.
To be fair, what I posted in 889 was my answer to that, which actually isn't a question tecnically - which is what was throwing me off. You said you wanted "some kind of justification" to which I said "I want answers to these points. I'm finding I can get better reads on people by examining their reaction to pressure." Does that not satisfy?
I have no information regarding any other player. And I was not confused over whether I had a name, as I specifically said I didn't. TFF indicated he had a name. I took that to mean something specific like "Jack O'Neill" as opposed to "SGC Delegate." I thought perhaps that the terrorists may have specific names as opposed to countries of origin, hence my vote on TFF. I wanted answers -> I got them -> I was satisfied -> I unvoted.
@AI: Anythiong else you'd like from me?
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This is a huge stretch.
Interesting wording. But no, I was mis-thinking that I couldn't die today, period, which simply isn't true. If the consensus is ultimately to lynch Ced today, I'll hammer him, but I think that's just stupid. It'd be no different than lynching Vezok - which has already been discussed - except that Ced is a much better analyst.
Really; why?
Yes, but not a good question; it was loaded the way he worded it. "Do you mean to imply that you did not beat your wife today?" -type of question.
Wrong and wrong.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Is there a reason I'm the only one left off, other than you?
He has. I can't remember which game it was, leaning Kaizers, but I know I've seen one from him before. Granted, it wasn't very good, but he did it.
Ok, I'm gonna have to /barn DYH on this. Has N_A acted scummy? For sure. Is he a claimed and un-CCd cop? Absolutely. Therefore, he will not be lynched today.
Or, at least, I'll take no part in it.
I feel your pain.
Have you (or anyone else in this game) ever seen a scum false-claim cop D1 and get away with it? I haven't. D2, yes, but not D1.
Well, in that case I'll Unvote. I'll likely be following the lead of others regarding ~Tilde~ as I get the idea he's difficult to read.
It is almost certainly possible, but my gut tells me he's telling the truth about his role.
I think it is a good offer, and I applaud him for making it, but I'm not interested in going through with that now. I'm feeling better about DYH and both involved are far too valuable, if they are/remain town, and I'm reluctant to kill them both D1.
I'm pretty sure I know what he's up to.
Apology accepted. As I said earlier, I feel much better about you now.
Why are you resolute that you want this to occur today?
Ok, so here's what I'm thinking. We all know Vez wants to be lynched today. He's already admitted that. He has decided to be as absolutely uncooperative as possible. He's done nothing to further the town in our endeavors. I will not support a lynch on him today, as that's precisely what he wants, but I don't think we should expect anything out of him.
In other words, perfect vig shot right here.
Too bad their roles aren't reversed. It'd be perfect.
/barn
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You do realize you pretty much attacked everyone not on it, right?
But what makes him scum?
This is sounding more and more like his claim to be an SK in Canada mafia...
DYH has drawn a lot of attention, but isn't likely to be scum.
I've drawn a lot of attention, but ~V~ has a plan for me, so I'm getting a reprive.
TFF and DYH have a slight link.
indomitable bug had a wagon on him, and it kind of died out with the attention everyone else was getting.
That's about all we have at the moment.
Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like time to start a new wagon on someone. I might go for a reread over the next few days, depending on how my classes are going, but no guarantees.
Well, I thought him sitting in the shadows and not really providing much was a good starting point, but apparently I'm wrong in my read of him.
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I trust ~V~.
I'm going to revise my opinion on Ced. I still think we should utilize his ability, just not today. Even if he's turned tonight we can always get rid of him tomorrow.
I don't exactly get the TFF connection. Did he claim the Emirati delegate by asking DYH that question?
Yeah, that's how I interpreted that.
If we're wrong, please correct TFF or DYH.
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Yes.
QFT
This, plus the fact that DYH doesn't seem at all concerned about my alignment and is just trying to use this weak connection to confirm us both, plus the reasons why I voted him initially make me still fairly confident that he is scum.
And as for the "balance" of his ability on scum, I'm assuming that balance is supposed to be my role.
Please keep it in your pants, man. No more information diarrhea, please.
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What are you, the most obvious "I have some kind of condition if you lynch me" player?
You're down-right horrible. People won't lynch you purely because you ask them to, and if you expect them to lynch you after you've practically given away the fact that you either become Mafia or kill the lyncher, you're just bad at this. I'll have a case on you in about an hour.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I think ~V~ is waiting for an answer from you to something or other.
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I'm not 'concerned about your alignment' because the information provides me nothing solid, and it would be stupid to assume one way or the other because of it [particularly in a bastard mod game]. Your reaction to my asking you to come out was what mattered to me; it's why I asked. I figured the Emirati doesn't come out if he has something to hide.
I'm certainly not trying to "confirm" us both - I feel my ability confirms me, yes, but as far as you go, your reaction seemed townie to me. I'm not clearing you based on it, but it does make me feel better about you.
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I've already done over half of it. If you want content, that would be content, but the point was to prove to not lynch him.
And, to what? Let me know.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Null.
Null.
I didn't like Vezo from the point I read the above comment. Not because he could easily be replaced, but because it infers that he really doesn't need to read the game, only try to be lynched to activate some ability or win-condition. And, even if that's not the case, I don't like the tone of it.
Mostly null.
Seeing as how at that point in the game he had barely supplied content, I don't think the ALL CAPITALS were really necessary. Kind of rude, really.
Either,
A): Two of those people are actually Scum, and one was put in there to pressure the third player.
B): None of those players are Scum, and the other two (who aren't Vezo) were put in there for pressure.
C): Vezo wants to force a lynch on himself.
I'll take C, because he's not Scum. Yet.
Mostly null.
The first comment would be a nice example of "how to barn". The second is another way for him to make people believe he's Scum, because then he'll turn to Scum. That, or he's a really, really bad Mafia player.
Note: I had planned to continue the PBPA, but MH would like me not to. So, by request, I won't continue it.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I am interested in how you see all his votes as null tells, when that's often how we can glean information from people. Please explain.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
They've already been explained by other people.
Not really null, just no need to explain, at the moment. And, now that I think about it, Vezo wanting to be lynched may be a cover for him not to be lynched.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Given a)Ced and b) that his claim would invite vigs or such I don't think this is a possibility.
1. Just because I vote someone doesn't mean I want them lynched.
2. I think it was extremely noble of him to make that offer as well.
3. I never said I wanted it to happen today. I merely asked for a clarification. As of this moment I am still unsure if I would like to pursue that option.
Unvote NA
This is accurate.
What if I told you I thought the scum team was rather small (like 2ish) with a bunch of potential traitors in the game to throw behavioral analysis out the window? Would that balance your ability for you? You're way too confident about your claim clearing you.
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I'll go with that summary, sort of. I disagree that DYH isn't likely to be scum... he's disavowed that he was using his ability day 1 to clear himself, and then gone right back to saying:
My read on him is that he was trying to confirm himself with his ability, and then realised that absolutely no-one buying it and has pulled a U-turn, but he still can't quite help himself from trying to keep the previous strategy alive. He knows an ability like this which can't be used every day (and which for all we know can't be used twice on the same person or something like that) does not confirm him at all, especially in a so-called "bastard mod" game, so trying this on is a very bad sign.
All that said, I'm not interested in pulling clever pants tricks with "making" DYH hammer ced though, partly because I think ced is playing as town at least for now and partly because if DYH is scum he won't do it anyway (so if he DOES do it, we're down two townies; brilliant!). Definitely on notice for tomorrow. We may have more information then anyway.
I also think the wagon on ibug went away for better reasons than "attention everyone else was getting". Combination of me never being convinced, and Azrael become unconvinced (and in fairness, a bit of sheep-following-Azrael, although DYH's disappointment in that way felt just a touch like aggravation at losing the designated mislynch
Speaking of ibug, 526? Really? In which he explains he was confused and thought Azrael's hydravote thing was scummy UNTIL it was explained that it was just a fancy FOS? Something that was indeed explained to him BEFORE he unvoted, correct? I'm not seeing even the implied lie here, and after chasing this for a half dozen posts or so, I think that's because this "lie" does not exist.
Hmm. DYH, did you not also trumpet this "obvious lie" by i.bug?
Probably a good time for me to get back on the horse re: AI (there's now a much larger sample size to analyze anyway).
It's not like I am getting lynched today.
Nakamura is active lurking.
@nakamura: I want top three scum picks from you.
I really don't like nakamura atm. I will vote her after I see the reads depending on them.
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You have absolutely no leg to stand on asking for this. Provide what others have asked of you and, maybe then, you'll get what you want.
It's called teamwork. Google it.
You posted there that you were coming here, then never posted anything here.
Silly man.
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I am still strongly of the opinion that this role is too overpowered to be on scum, period. I'm not a traitor, and if this role could be recruited into the mafia, it'd be completely busted. The ability to stop a self-lynch without exposing the source is completely imbalanced on a mafia member, IMO.
If the scum team is that small and you have some sort of gauge on the number of traitors, then we might need to consider having Vezok hammer Ced (and lynch/vig me whenever; whatever). Killing two traitors at once could be worth considering.
There's a significant difference between this role and the one I had in Court Mafia. That was a one-time deal. Please explain to me, Raf, what the purpose would be in exposing that I'm the source of this role (as scum), when I simply could have sat on the role, waited for me - or more importantly a scum buddy - to get into real trouble and use it without fear of exposure. I'm so tired of the "bastard mod" conversation - if we're going to play that card on every single thing that comes up, might as well not play mafia at all and just randomly lynch people.
Your quotes here are terrible - I was accused of trying to confirm both me and TFF, which is not at all what I was doing - do I feel I should be confirmed? Absolutely. TFF? No, that's a read based on a reaction.
Think about this for two seconds, Raf; if I don't hammer Ced (because I'm scum) - who is going to? One of my "scum buddies" to get himself killed? Brilliant! The pretty obvious solution at that point would be to lynch me.
It went away because Az lost interest in it, we had a disagreement in which I blew up, and now here we are. The bottom line is that if Azrael were still on iBug, he'd be claiming by now. Fact.
Yes I did trumpet iBug's obvious lie because it was. He unvoted, made a smarmy comment about how Az was trying to confuse people (implying he was scummy), then claimed he was leaning townie on him. The pieces do not fit.
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Town points. That is what you seem to currently be using it for.
I've been thinking about this myself. On the one hand, ignoring the fact that this is bastard game is really silly, when the mod makes explicit mention of the fact (unless of course the bastardness is that there isn't really any bastardness :ria:), but on the other hand we don't want to just call everything bastardness. I think we're currently at a nice middle-ground; we're taking vezok and ced at face value, but you and Nom are not being believed solely on the fact that normally your roles would clear you (at least that's my view on you two; others have expressed clearing one or both of you based solely on your claims).
Regardless, there is a large difference between analyzing behaviour and just randomly lynching people, wouldn't you say?
I want to get to TFF at some point due to the way he hopped onto DYH's initial wagon, and his activity pattern up to this point. He's usually a better townie than he's been so far this game. He seems to be in submarine mode.
I'm not happy with DYH yet, especially with the "my role couldn't possibly be balanced on scum" defense. This is a bastard game. You know that. The entire point of bastard games is to come up with the unthinkable, then do it, and laugh at the town.
So, still keeping an eye on him.
Amen, brother. Can I get a hallelujah?