Playstyle changes can be legit, but I don't buy his explanation that it was so difficult to not be nervous that he couldn't handle it. Even the posts he quoted at us, for using the word, "seems", were far more decisive, natural, and confident than his posts here.
And you don't think that trying something new, and fairly out of character for him, would add some level of nervousness and end up sounding less natural than normal?
Quote from az »
On top of that, he keeps on pushing the negative spin every chance he gets.
And what are you doing here? Instead of considering his response, you just labeled it a lie -even though his earlier posts make a lot more sense when taking a playstyle change into consideration.
Quote from az »
That doesn't look like something a playstyle or confidence issue can explain any longer. It looks like negative spin is the track his brain is running on now.
Is that what it "looks" like? -Careful with your wording, Az, someone might mistake that for nervousness or a lack of confidence.
And you don't think that trying something new, and fairly out of character for him, would add some level of nervousness and end up sounding less natural than normal?
And what are you doing here? Instead of considering his response, you just labeled it a lie -even though his earlier posts make a lot more sense when taking a playstyle change into consideration.
Is that what it "looks" like? -Careful with your wording, Az, someone might mistake that for nervousness or a lack of confidence.
Ugh, this game is giving me a migraine trying to follow. I will say that Az's numerous comments this game read as scummy to me. He tends to be quiet during the early game as town, trying to avoid notice. This game he's being noisy and acting confident.
Unvote
Say what?!?
I'm quiet during the early game? I try to avoid notice?
And you don't think that trying something new, and fairly out of character for him, would add some level of nervousness and end up sounding less natural than normal?
Less natural, absolutely. If it was just awkward phrasing, that'd be the end of it. But I don't think his two styles would bleed into one another the way he says they did, unless something else is going on.
If he was consciously trying to create a new playstyle, I don't think he would have failed so badly. He doesn't read like someone who is severely under-confident. Its mild.
I think it's much easier to read him as unconsciously adopting a new playstyle. Because if it's not a conscious decision, it's much easier for your true nature to bleed through when you're posting something you feel is artificial, something you don't truly believe in. And it's even more easy to get nervous when that playstyle changes comes about because you're trying to figure out how to play as scum.
Quote from TheFooFish »
And what are you doing here?
Sure. Because some things deserve to be treated negatively, where others aren't. He's not discriminating between the two.
Quote from TFF »
Instead of considering his response, you just labeled it a lie -even though his earlier posts make a lot more sense when taking a playstyle change into consideration.
As detailed above, I don't think his playstyle change explanation fits. If he were consciously trying to change his style to be more confident, he shouldn't have sounded MORE nervous than he usually does.
Quote from TFF »
Is that what it "looks" like? -Careful with your wording, Az, someone might mistake that for nervousness or a lack of confidence.
That would be a very counter-intuitive read.
The words seems, and looks, aren't always tells of under-confidence. But when you use them at the same time that you're making a vehement statement against someone, that says something a little different than in the ordinary course of things.
1 - I'm not sure what to call it at the moment, as what I've previously noted it as escapes me at the moment, but I'm not a fan of this sort of attack. He's calling me out on something without discretely calling me out on it. I like seeing it as more black and white than grey.
2 - Very similar to what I said above. It's note quite the same, but the overarching point is "what's the point?"
3 - It's against the rules to discuss ongoing games. Period. He has no right to mention anything about it and the fact that he did as the basis for argument is dumbfounding.
Family Mafia, meanwhile, was not (it being my last game). Considering that, your argument that "it was a long time ago and playstyles change" doesn't hold up. Especially since you weren't really playing intermittent games.
Regardless, you're not answering my question straight. I ask you why you were playing differently from usual, your response was "I am?" So I dig up some older games to give an example, and you respond with "those older games are old", asking me to put together the answer that I mentioned above, and also ignoring Family Mafia.
Not to mention that I believe that OoTS and Ghost Town were a long time after your previous scum game.
Basically what I'm trying to tell you is that I have no idea what my current meta is. I haven't been playing often for a long time. I'm not going to be able to defend myself much in this regard. If you think I'm not behaving in a way I normally do...:shrug:, there's not much I can tell you.
You didn't. You quoted it in 144.
I didn't recall that but now I'm confused by you. You asked why I didn't make it clear to MH that it was a joke when the post you're mentioning right now does that. Or the follow up, my post 151, again makes it clear that I'm trying to be humorous.
IMO, 3+ votes is a wagon. But semantics is semantics.
Sure.
He was town in Cubus (and replaced out). I also remember that the wording in his Cubus vote was very similar to what he gave us here.
K.
Lynch threshold is 12, he had 7 after you placed your vote.
Wait, I'm not following. What does that put him at now?
Because I was looking for what Az's response would be to my comment without any sort of vote influence.
That said, the "lol" response speaks volumes. I think Az has been saying a lot, but not been LOOKING very hard for scum. he hasn't even proposed an AzPlantm yet this game.
I take note of this comment in particular:
Quote from Azrael »
You realize the more you guys say I'm town, the bigger the hard-on the scum are going to have to kill me? *scowls*
If you're town, you'd already have been a high-priority target for the scum at the start of the game. You wouldn't become a better target as the day rolled on.
In short, Az is acting like someone who began this game knowing more than a Townie should, so... Vote Azrael
I think it's much easier to read him as unconsciously adopting a new playstyle.
But he was conscious of it, as he brought up the point. I don't think it would be likely for him, as scum, to openly admit that he is intentionally playing differently than normal.
Quote from az »
As detailed above, I don't think his playstyle change explanation fits. If he were consciously trying to change his style to be more confident, he shouldn't have sounded MORE nervous than he usually does.
If he was good at it, sure. But trying something very new and uncomfortable can easily make one nervous.
Quote from az »
But when you use them at the same time that you're making a vehement statement against someone, that says something a little different than in the ordinary course of things.
Exactly. You finished that post making a strong statement against him: that he was sniping rather than exaggerating. -So why use all those qualifiers in the preceding statements?
1 - I'm not sure what to call it at the moment, as what I've previously noted it as escapes me at the moment, but I'm not a fan of this sort of attack. He's calling me out on something without discretely calling me out on it. I like seeing it as more black and white than grey.
2 - Very similar to what I said above. It's note quite the same, but the overarching point is "what's the point?"
3 - It's against the rules to discuss ongoing games. Period. He has no right to mention anything about it and the fact that he did as the basis for argument is dumbfounding.
Because I was looking for what Az's response would be to my comment without any sort of vote influence.
So...are you standing by your meta read on me, or not? I'd love to have an excuse to post links to world dom 2, etc. It makes me all warm and giggly inside.
Quote from Tilde »
That said, the "lol" response speaks volumes. I think Az has been saying a lot, but not been LOOKING very hard for scum.
Oh dear.
My bad, I should have at least three scum targets by post 400 of the thread, not just a couple, including one who's getting close to claim range. Ugh. I fail.
Quote from Tilde »
he hasn't even proposed an AzPlantm yet this game.
In a bastard mod game with no unifying mechanics, and no idea what half of our abilities are even supposed to do? *eyebrow*
Quote from Tilde »
If you're town, you'd already have been a high-priority target for the scum at the start of the game. You wouldn't become a better target as the day rolled on.
Unsuspected Az dies even faster than suspected Az.
Quote from Tilde »
In short, Az is acting like someone who began this game knowing more than a Townie should, so... Vote Azrael
Say what? What am I supposed to know???
I mean, I always know more than I ought for my own good, but...?
But he was conscious of it, as he brought up the point. I don't think it would be likely for him, as scum, to openly admit that he is intentionally playing differently than normal.
Afterwards! When he was called on it!
Even townies have been known to fudge their explanations after the fact; that's probably the scenario that most frightens me about him.
Quote from TFF »
If he was good at it, sure. But trying something very new and uncomfortable can easily make one nervous.
Exactly. You finished that post making a strong statement against him: that he was sniping rather than exaggerating. -So why use all those qualifiers in the preceding statements?
Because I am using them to express a concept with precision, not to say that I have doubts about my read.
I do, as always, but I've said that elsewhere. In plain speech, openly.
Yeah, I'm not dignifying any of that with a response.
Interesting.
I've played 3 games with TFF, all of which he was town and all of which he was quite visible.
Coupled with his horrible defending of iBug, he gets an FoS.
Interesting.
I've played 3 games with TFF, all of which he was town and all of which he was quite visible.
Coupled with his horrible defending of iBug, he gets an FoS.
This is really really silly. Manders, do you know why MTGSalvation has an invisible mode? It wasn't made so that scum could lurk without detection. It was made for privacy. Gleaning anything else from that is logically unsound. If you wish to counter this, I'm open.
This is really really silly. Manders, do you know why MTGSalvation has an invisible mode? It wasn't made so that scum could lurk without detection. It was made for privacy. Gleaning anything else from that is logically unsound. If you wish to counter this, I'm open.
1) My first scum game, I went invisible so that I wouldn't get accused of lurking, so it's not unbelievable that someone would do this for this purpose.
2) I have been right on this before, in Highlander with MarauderMoe.
3) He is unwilling to answer the question, I believe because he knows he will not answer it satisfactorily to assuage my suspicions. Speculation, yes, but w/e. It's my mind.
1) My first scum game, I went invisible so that I wouldn't get accused of lurking, so it's not unbelievable that someone would do this for this purpose.
2) I have been right on this before, in Highlander with MarauderMoe.
3) He is unwilling to answer the question, I believe because he knows he will not answer it satisfactorily to assuage my suspicions. Speculation, yes, but w/e. It's my mind.
1) It's not unbelievable, but it's also not evidence, and therefore shouldn't be factored into any of these descisions.
2) I once guessed that one of my metalhead friends didn't listen to rap. I was right. This doesn't mean that the next metalhead I meet doesn't listen to rap.
3) He's unwilling to answer the question because it's a stupid question.
2) I have been right on this before, in Highlander with MarauderMoe.
How many games did Moe have under his belt at the time? Was it his first game as scum?
Actually, hon, why did you let go of this point against me so easily? Seeing as you seem pretty certain about me recently being visible, and me adamantly denying it, wouldn't that make it more likely for me to be scum?
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
1) It's not unbelievable, but it's also not evidence, and therefore shouldn't be factored into any of these descisions.
2) I once guessed that one of my metalhead friends didn't listen to rap. I was right. This doesn't mean that the next metalhead I meet doesn't listen to rap.
3) He's unwilling to answer the question because it's a stupid question.
1) It is evidence, whether you agree with it or not.
2) Don't condescend me. I'm aware that there are plenty of mafia players that play invisible and always have. He is not one of them.
3) Two things:
a) There are no stupid questions.
b) Why are you defending him so hard over an FoS?
Ninja edit:
Quote from Z »
How many games did Moe have under his belt at the time? Was it his first game as scum?
No clue. He replaced out shortly after this.
I don't think it was his first scum game though.
Actually, hon, why did you let go of this point against me so easily? Seeing as you seem pretty certain about me recently being visible, and me adamantly denying it, wouldn't that make it more likely for me to be scum?
I haven't dropped it on you. I'm simply not as sure that I'm right about you as I am TFF. I'm 100% on him and about 95% on you.
In my previous post about this with you, I said it is dropped for now, meaning I don't care to discuss it further with you, but it's still on my mind.
1) It is evidence, whether you agree with it or not.
2) Don't condescend me. I'm aware that there are plenty of mafia players that play invisible and always have. He is not one of them.
3) Two things:
a) There are no stupid questions.
b) Why are you defending him so hard over an FoS?
1) It isn't evidence in the sense that you're using it in, because people do it regardless of alignment
2) I don't intend to condescend anyone, but I can't really help how I sound. Whether someone has always played invisible or not hold no bearing on their intentions. There a thousand possible explanations for which him being scum is only one. Perhaps one only discovers invisible mode recently. The point is that people do other things on this site than play mafia, and if they want more privacy, then that's what they want
Let me now show you a scenario where a townie initiated invisible mode. Perhaps said townie is like me, unable to take scope of whole games, and only works on certain leads they happen upon at a time. Or also like me, they have their control panel as a homepage and check it every time they boot up their browser. Nobody rational expects somebody to post every time they read the thread, especially at the frequency that I do. They don't want to be accused of lurking for being seen reading the thread without posting, because (a) a mislynch harms their team and (b) they will be unable to provide insight for their team due to death. Invisible mode seems an optimal choice here.
3) Stupid, silly, logically unsound, loaded, pick your words, I don't care. It's just not a good question.
I'm not so much defending his choice than I am attacking your reasoning. If I didn't, you'd likely be unaware of the negative side of assuming such a stance. Plus matters of privacy are, well, private.
1) It isn't evidence in the sense that you're using it in, because people do it regardless of alignment
2) I don't intend to condescend anyone, but I can't really help how I sound. Whether someone has always played invisible or not hold no bearing on their intentions. There a thousand possible explanations for which him being scum is only one. Perhaps one only discovers invisible mode recently. The point is that people do other things on this site than play mafia, and if they want more privacy, then that's what they want
Let me now show you a scenario where a townie initiated invisible mode. Perhaps said townie is like me, unable to take scope of whole games, and only works on certain leads they happen upon at a time. Or also like me, they have their control panel as a homepage and check it every time they boot up their browser. Nobody rational expects somebody to post every time they read the thread, especially at the frequency that I do. They don't want to be accused of lurking for being seen reading the thread without posting, because (a) a mislynch harms their team and (b) they will be unable to provide insight for their team due to death. Invisible mode seems an optimal choice here.
3) Stupid, silly, logically unsound, loaded, pick your words, I don't care. It's just not a good question.
I'm not so much defending his choice than I am attacking your reasoning. If I didn't, you'd likely be unaware of the negative side of assuming such a stance. Plus matters of privacy are, well, private.
I don't believe I've even seen a post from him outside of mafia.
Regardless, it's dropped, but not forgotten.
TFF has been using invisible mode for as long as I can remember.
Then he must have stopped using it for awhile because I'm as sure he was visible during our 3 games together as I am sure that I'm a chick.
And I'm pretty damn sure about that
Hey, Nakamura, how about posting something here as well?
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
It's not like the scum were just planning on letting town-Az stick around. If you are town you were doomed to die from the moment you got your role PM. And really...what an odd thing for you to say. "Stop saying I'm town, guys!"
Are you sure you're not just saying that because you're both voting for the same player and he apparently thinks your read is spot-on?
Junk.
Possible role flavor/junk.
Ditto.
Rehashing an old game. Irrelevant.
/barns DYH re: i.bug fishing. I guess this is content...?
Says the same thing I said originally, but by now it's not even worth mentioning. Not very relevant.
Indicates ~V~'s relative inexperience. Not very relevant.
Tries to twist a n00b tell into a scum tell; votes. Relevant, but scummy.
Another /barn. Yeah, we get the idea, you don't like i.bug.
What's baloney is how ridiculous this comment is. I dare someone to argue that a n00b townie wouldn't play this way. Sure, i.bug is not the most townish of players, but this is no slam-dunk case. People need to stop acting like it is.
AsianInvasion basically broke down Some One's post much like I would have if I'd gotten to it first. Terrible stuff from SO.
So you are speculating and trying to smear me in the process?
Yes
So I felt like calling it, what do you care?
I interpreted this as indicating Azrael's experience. This conversation is going to get too irrelevant for you too quickly, so let's drop it now.
This is where you just lose me. I have a damn good argument for you, however, due to the fact that you mentioned an ongoing game, I am wholly inable to comment and quote from it. The argument deals with the fact that I force you into a dichotomy.
Okay...
iBug's comments are incredibly scummy - he is trying to justify his behavior as he is going along. His self awareness would don him too much credit to call him noob town given that he has been supporting his style as the argument evolves around him. Azrael is outplaying iBug by getting him to evolve his defense to meet the current argument. Instead of calling Azrael out for his arguments and justifying his behavior from a town mindset, he is adopting reasoning or excuses for why he is playing like he is. Real townie, huh?
AI:
-You have not provided evidence of a meta argument; you referenced an ongoing game to support this argument which further compounds this fact. If you would like to meta my play in it's entirety as scum vs. town, I will be more than willing to take you up on that.
-You claim to have a strong scum-feeling from my one post. How logical do you think that is given the very infrastructure of your arguments?
-All that aside, it's non-sensical to compare one post to a game (especially when you are doing it all wrong), and in the future, I can walk the talk. In other words, extrapolate the dichotomy.
This is an extremely over-defensive reaction to the AI post above, particularly the stuff addressed at AI. All the "big words to make me look smarter" at the end - I'm trying to figure out what the point is; enlighten me, Some One?
And you don't think that trying something new, and fairly out of character for him, would add some level of nervousness and end up sounding less natural than normal?
And what are you doing here? Instead of considering his response, you just labeled it a lie -even though his earlier posts make a lot more sense when taking a playstyle change into consideration.
Is that what it "looks" like? -Careful with your wording, Az, someone might mistake that for nervousness or a lack of confidence.
This is classic town TFF analysis. I like what I'm seeing here.
1 - I'm not sure what to call it at the moment, as what I've previously noted it as escapes me at the moment, but I'm not a fan of this sort of attack. He's calling me out on something without discretely calling me out on it. I like seeing it as more black and white than grey.
2 - Very similar to what I said above. It's note quite the same, but the overarching point is "what's the point?"
3 - It's against the rules to discuss ongoing games. Period. He has no right to mention anything about it and the fact that he did as the basis for argument is dumbfounding.
These points are extremely weak, and I doubt you really felt that way at the time. I think you got caught off guard and reacted spontaneously.
1) My first scum game, I went invisible so that I wouldn't get accused of lurking, so it's not unbelievable that someone would do this for this purpose.
2) I have been right on this before, in Highlander with MarauderMoe.
3) He is unwilling to answer the question, I believe because he knows he will not answer it satisfactorily to assuage my suspicions. Speculation, yes, but w/e. It's my mind.
Uhh, Manders; if memory serves me correct, I brought up the invisible point against my scum buddy Moe. It has amused me to no end, however, that you continue to harp on people about that point in this game. It only "worked" there because I knew he was scum, ya know?
@ DYH - the "big words" refer to him citing an ongoing game as a meta-argument, and we'll leave it at that.
What are you saying with that second point, I don't understand. I clearly expressed my thoughts, and you are saying those weren't actually my thoughts? It alludes me how you can draw such conclusions given all of the information I presented.
MH is town, and I'm liking someone too.
DYH seems to be about the same as his usual, in that he's kind of standing back and managing, rather than getting in and really fighting. However, I generally read DYH pretty poorly, so take that with a pretty good dose of salt.
I'd have to say my biggest suspicions would be on AI, as I don't like the way he was going after Some One--it's like he's trying to be subtle about it, yet not really succeeding.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I've been getting the feeling that Az is town both from his case/wagon on me as well as the general reaction of everyone towards it. I jumped on the scum jokes because it seemed way too over the top for a town player and more like a scum messing with people, but with the discussion about it from AI and others I'm seeing I was probably a bit misguided. I don't see Azrael as scum at the moment, but I'm not 100% on him being town, either. Currently he's in my "leaning town" pile.
If you're town, you'd already have been a high-priority target for the scum at the start of the game. You wouldn't become a better target as the day rolled on.
If everybody in the town thinks Az is town, then he's a better target for a nightkill than if there's some contention about him being scum. Why would they should somebody that we might lynch? If there's no chance of him being mislynched, then he's more likely to get taken out by the scum. His response sounds facetious and sarcastic, but it's still something of a legitimate concern.
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
I've been getting the feeling that Az is town both from his case/wagon on me as well as the general reaction of everyone towards it. I jumped on the scum jokes because it seemed way too over the top for a town player and more like a scum messing with people, but with the discussion about it from AI and others I'm seeing I was probably a bit misguided. I don't see Azrael as scum at the moment, but I'm not 100% on him being town, either. Currently he's in my "leaning town" pile.
You feel that Az is town because everyone likes Az case on you?
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Hey, Manders; this is what we like to call "sarcasm"; but I'm sure RafK appreciates the defense like I did, too.
I'm aware of that, but what I said is no less relevant.
This should not count as a post for the purposes of prodding/replacement.
QFT
Uhh, Manders; if memory serves me correct, I brought up the invisible point against my scum buddy Moe. It has amused me to no end, however, that you continue to harp on people about that point in this game. It only "worked" there because I knew he was scum, ya know?
While you did bring it up, I fought him on it relentlessly because I knew I was right and he was lying. Had he not replaced out, I likely would never have dropped attention on that role.
Nevertheless, it is now relevant as I will not be basing any decisions on whether anyone is invisible or not.
The tone of this post bothers me, because it again reminds me of myself in Battle Royale when I took a "misunderstanding" approach to early pressure on myself and tried to be unnaturally reasonable when responding to pressure. While it's not a good IB meta or anything, it still is a style that bugs me - especially switching from strong language used earlier.
No. You did read that post, right? It was a vote buried in a bunch of pointless text. There are maybe two or three sentences in that entire post that even resemble content. Explain to me how a (not inexperienced) town player lurks through the pregame, ignores every other relevant discussion and possible suspect and goes straight to join the biggest wagon he could. It doesn't happen.
I can't see Some One being town here, and if he's scum then i.bug is town.
I can't see the differences between Some One there and Some One anywhere else. The meta patterfn only really emerges later in the game for him.
Because I was looking for what Az's response would be to my comment without any sort of vote influence.
That said, the "lol" response speaks volumes. I think Az has been saying a lot, but not been LOOKING very hard for scum. he hasn't even proposed an AzPlantm yet this game.
I take note of this comment in particular:
If you're town, you'd already have been a high-priority target for the scum at the start of the game. You wouldn't become a better target as the day rolled on.
In short, Az is acting like someone who began this game knowing more than a Townie should, so... Vote Azrael
I've been getting the feeling that Az is town both from his case/wagon on me as well as the general reaction of everyone towards it. I jumped on the scum jokes because it seemed way too over the top for a town player and more like a scum messing with people, but with the discussion about it from AI and others I'm seeing I was probably a bit misguided. I don't see Azrael as scum at the moment, but I'm not 100% on him being town, either. Currently he's in my "leaning town" pile.
I'd say the odds of there being at least one scum between Some One and i.bug are pretty good.
I'll get caught up reading those links when I get back from work.
i dislike this post - especially Day 1.
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RE: tordeck. I think I replaced out of a game as scum early when life caught up with me and I didn't have time to post. I don't think too much can be read form it.
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Some One could go either way for me. He has overreacted to AI, but it wouldn't be the first time I have seen him overreact that way.
1 - I'm not sure what to call it at the moment, as what I've previously noted it as escapes me at the moment, but I'm not a fan of this sort of attack. He's calling me out on something without discretely calling me out on it. I like seeing it as more black and white than grey.
2 - Very similar to what I said above. It's note quite the same, but the overarching point is "what's the point?"
3 - It's against the rules to discuss ongoing games. Period. He has no right to mention anything about it and the fact that he did as the basis for argument is dumbfounding.
His response to TFF is bad though. It was such a simple question, and such a overly-wrought response.
@ DYH - the "big words" refer to him citing an ongoing game as a meta-argument, and we'll leave it at that.
What are you saying with that second point, I don't understand. I clearly expressed my thoughts, and you are saying those weren't actually my thoughts? It alludes me how you can draw such conclusions given all of the information I presented.
I get what you were commenting about, I'm wondering why you chose to do so in such an over-the-top fashion. As for the second part:
Quote from EP »
His response to TFF is bad though. It was such a simple question, and such a overly-wrought response.
This does a much better answer summing it up than I did. Basically, you said way too much for me to believe that was the thought process going through your head when you reacted the way you did, short of point 3 (ongoing game). Where was that detail in the initial response, rather than the explosive reaction we saw instead?
Let's assume I'm wrong, do points 1 and 2 really make you that angry?
I cannot see him using the word "confuse" in 387 in any manner other than the spin things. [...]
IB: Ordinarily, I word have expected the first question for you to have here would be "what do they mean?" rather than "how often do they appear?"
Why did the latter question come to you first here?
I'll admit yes, it looks like I was trying to spin it. I was trying to figure it out, and a confusion tactic is what it looked like to me. For people who are used to Az's play I'm sure it's fine, not a problem for them. I first saw it as someone who has a multi-vote ability. I wondered for a moment if it was real, then figured that if he was posting it in the thread then it probably was. It wasn't until Zchinque questioned its meaning in his votecount did I really think it might not have been real. So instead of thinking it was a part of Az's playstyle, my mind stuck to the role ability track, mostly because he had bolded them and the word vote was used, which made it look more official and game-like to me, and I didn't think anyone would be playing with the rules/game structure in such a manner. I see I was mistaken.
You feel that Az is town because everyone likes Az case on you?
It helps. I'm not a great analyst, I can't pick apart someone's posting that well. But if he's built a great case that people are liking, he looks better in my eyes. He's been very active since the beginning, and people not shouting BS on him en masse makes him look pretty good to me. Is it possible he's just scum tricking everybody? Sure. But I don't have reason to believe that yet.
And because the numbers were against him. I see him counting heads, here:
Lastly, pointing out this:
This guy's a machine.
I find your posting frustrating. But I assume you're okay with the person you're casing having no idea what you're saying. Being able to communicate in the open without your target understanding is very useful. I'd ask you to explain, but I'll just wait for the discussion from others to figure it out.
I say both Some One and I bug are scums.
I will not vote until I see a Votecount.
I learned my lesson.
You have yet to post anything of value, vezok. You're attempting to stay present in the game without doing any work, just pointing a finger here or there along with two wagons, and do nothing to help either one move forward or backward. If you'd just do something, you'd look a less scummy in my eyes. But all you've done is stand in the crowd and shout in agreement. I understand you attempt to survive until the end of every game, and I get how that makes things more enjoyable for you. But you have posted nothing of any worth whatsoever, complained about having to read the thread, and unless you want to do some work to help catch scum, you are a hindrance to the town. vote:vezokpiraka
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Emotions can be easier to fake as scum than it is to disguise the subtleties of your thought process.
The flip side of the coin, which makes this very difficult, is that the text can sometimes take on some pretty scummy embodiments out of a very hard-to-understand twist of a townie mindset.
And then there's another option: Ibug may not have the emotions we might normally expect from a scum under pressure.
1. Manders isn't quite as in control anymore, this makes me happy :).
2. Az started posting more smiles for all :).
3. AI did not repent/narrow focus on his 5ish fos's at once pleas consider my vote confirmed.
4. Az is not scum, he is too open and confident currently we can come back to him later.
5. Vezok should be lynched because he gives me a headache.
6. The inherent issue of being famous is that you are likely to die at some point scum or town, I do not think that any of the aforementioned famous people are scum currently, wait till night time and see what pops up for more info on these guys. We KNOW that whatever their alignment they will be targeted by at least a few night actions therefore we should let them stew at least during day 1.
Now lets answer CED shall we?
I am pro softclaim but this particular softclaim seems ineffective. The cult mention is because in addition to its ineffective nature I am pointing out it could also theoretically hurt the town without really having much of a chance to help us.
Would you rather I gave my reasons to you one at a time and then only came up with a more compelling reason as the first few were shot down?
A case by its very definition is made to lynch someone. I will only make a case on someone I believe to be scum already, however once I HAVE made a case in general, unless convinced otherwise, I would like it to follow through into the death of the person I am making the case upon. In summary a case should be made to lynch an already found scum, if evidence comes out that the person having a case made upon them is town then the case stops. If evidence comes out they are scum then it is added to the case for the person to defend against.
I get what you were commenting about, I'm wondering why you chose to do so in such an over-the-top fashion. As for the second part:
A couple sentences for each point is over-the-top? When removed from context, it was definitely necessary to restate the context when answering TFF's question.
This does a much better answer summing it up than I did. Basically, you said way too much for me to believe that was the thought process going through your head when you reacted the way you did, short of point 3 (ongoing game).
What is wrong with the first point? He called me out for posting junk/role flavor. They are far from the same thing, wouldn't you agree?
Where was that detail in the initial response, rather than the explosive reaction we saw instead?
I think calling it an explosive reaction is an exaggeration. The detail in the intial response is present when it is in context for all three points.
Let's assume I'm wrong, do points 1 and 2 really make you that angry?
With point 3 out the window:
Point 1 is a dumb point to make to support a case; likewise for the second point. The first point may as well not exist and the second point isn't far off. Thus, there's nothing wrong with being dumbfounded by such frivolousness.
I've come to the conclusion that at least IBug's tone/emotions are primarily town-like, although not much else about him appears to be.
Nice of you to catch up to where I was about 2 days ago
Nothing AI has done in the past few pages has partularly persuaded me he's not scum. Vote stands.
It feels a bit odd to not be the person driving a day 1. I think I need to come up with some questions for people to generate some reactions I can work with. The arguments so far involving Some One and Manders and all have no handholds for me.
Your bastard mod would like to remind all that your bastard mod is generally not around on weekends. That said, slight food poisoning ensured your bastard mod wasn't around yesterday either. -_-
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Your bastard mod would like to remind all that your bastard mod is generally not around on weekends. That said, slight food poisoning ensured your bastard mod wasn't around yesterday either. -_-
Glad you're feeling better now. Food poisoning is no joke.
I gotta retract my read from Ibug just from his last post. unvote
Vote someone
Exactly what about his post made you change your mind. Use quotes to explain yourself.
Or replace out, as you are not helping at all the way you are now. There are still plenty that would love to have your spot.
And you don't think that trying something new, and fairly out of character for him, would add some level of nervousness and end up sounding less natural than normal?
And what are you doing here? Instead of considering his response, you just labeled it a lie -even though his earlier posts make a lot more sense when taking a playstyle change into consideration.
Is that what it "looks" like? -Careful with your wording, Az, someone might mistake that for nervousness or a lack of confidence.
Why are you invisible?
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That's funny, I was just getting the same feeling.
Say what?!?
I'm quiet during the early game? I try to avoid notice?
Less natural, absolutely. If it was just awkward phrasing, that'd be the end of it. But I don't think his two styles would bleed into one another the way he says they did, unless something else is going on.
If he was consciously trying to create a new playstyle, I don't think he would have failed so badly. He doesn't read like someone who is severely under-confident. Its mild.
I think it's much easier to read him as unconsciously adopting a new playstyle. Because if it's not a conscious decision, it's much easier for your true nature to bleed through when you're posting something you feel is artificial, something you don't truly believe in. And it's even more easy to get nervous when that playstyle changes comes about because you're trying to figure out how to play as scum.
Sure. Because some things deserve to be treated negatively, where others aren't. He's not discriminating between the two.
As detailed above, I don't think his playstyle change explanation fits. If he were consciously trying to change his style to be more confident, he shouldn't have sounded MORE nervous than he usually does.
That would be a very counter-intuitive read.
The words seems, and looks, aren't always tells of under-confidence. But when you use them at the same time that you're making a vehement statement against someone, that says something a little different than in the ordinary course of things.
Go Democracy!
Derp. I was thinking with 12 alive. Oops.
/barn
@TFF Please answer my question.
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Family - Town
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1 - I'm not sure what to call it at the moment, as what I've previously noted it as escapes me at the moment, but I'm not a fan of this sort of attack. He's calling me out on something without discretely calling me out on it. I like seeing it as more black and white than grey.
2 - Very similar to what I said above. It's note quite the same, but the overarching point is "what's the point?"
3 - It's against the rules to discuss ongoing games. Period. He has no right to mention anything about it and the fact that he did as the basis for argument is dumbfounding.
Basically what I'm trying to tell you is that I have no idea what my current meta is. I haven't been playing often for a long time. I'm not going to be able to defend myself much in this regard. If you think I'm not behaving in a way I normally do...:shrug:, there's not much I can tell you.
I didn't recall that but now I'm confused by you. You asked why I didn't make it clear to MH that it was a joke when the post you're mentioning right now does that. Or the follow up, my post 151, again makes it clear that I'm trying to be humorous.
Sure.
K.
Wait, I'm not following. What does that put him at now?
Because I was looking for what Az's response would be to my comment without any sort of vote influence.
That said, the "lol" response speaks volumes. I think Az has been saying a lot, but not been LOOKING very hard for scum. he hasn't even proposed an AzPlantm yet this game.
I take note of this comment in particular:
If you're town, you'd already have been a high-priority target for the scum at the start of the game. You wouldn't become a better target as the day rolled on.
In short, Az is acting like someone who began this game knowing more than a Townie should, so... Vote Azrael
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
But he was conscious of it, as he brought up the point. I don't think it would be likely for him, as scum, to openly admit that he is intentionally playing differently than normal.
If he was good at it, sure. But trying something very new and uncomfortable can easily make one nervous.
Exactly. You finished that post making a strong statement against him: that he was sniping rather than exaggerating. -So why use all those qualifiers in the preceding statements?
Yeah, I'm not dignifying any of that with a response.
Okay.
So...are you standing by your meta read on me, or not? I'd love to have an excuse to post links to world dom 2, etc. It makes me all warm and giggly inside.
Oh dear.
My bad, I should have at least three scum targets by post 400 of the thread, not just a couple, including one who's getting close to claim range. Ugh. I fail.
In a bastard mod game with no unifying mechanics, and no idea what half of our abilities are even supposed to do? *eyebrow*
Unsuspected Az dies even faster than suspected Az.
Say what? What am I supposed to know???
I mean, I always know more than I ought for my own good, but...?
Afterwards! When he was called on it!
Even townies have been known to fudge their explanations after the fact; that's probably the scenario that most frightens me about him.
Because I am using them to express a concept with precision, not to say that I have doubts about my read.
I do, as always, but I've said that elsewhere. In plain speech, openly.
I WANT A VOTE COUNT.
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So you were voting for Az when you unvoted?
Interesting.
I've played 3 games with TFF, all of which he was town and all of which he was quite visible.
Coupled with his horrible defending of iBug, he gets an FoS.
Either provide content or replace out. I'm already tired of this crap from you.
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This is really really silly. Manders, do you know why MTGSalvation has an invisible mode? It wasn't made so that scum could lurk without detection. It was made for privacy. Gleaning anything else from that is logically unsound. If you wish to counter this, I'm open.
1) My first scum game, I went invisible so that I wouldn't get accused of lurking, so it's not unbelievable that someone would do this for this purpose.
2) I have been right on this before, in Highlander with MarauderMoe.
3) He is unwilling to answer the question, I believe because he knows he will not answer it satisfactorily to assuage my suspicions. Speculation, yes, but w/e. It's my mind.
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1) It's not unbelievable, but it's also not evidence, and therefore shouldn't be factored into any of these descisions.
2) I once guessed that one of my metalhead friends didn't listen to rap. I was right. This doesn't mean that the next metalhead I meet doesn't listen to rap.
3) He's unwilling to answer the question because it's a stupid question.
Please illustrate what you mean by pulling out relevant posts/quotes.
You really want to use that as a point against him?
Gud 4 U!
How many games did Moe have under his belt at the time? Was it his first game as scum?
Actually, hon, why did you let go of this point against me so easily? Seeing as you seem pretty certain about me recently being visible, and me adamantly denying it, wouldn't that make it more likely for me to be scum?
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
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Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
1) It is evidence, whether you agree with it or not.
2) Don't condescend me. I'm aware that there are plenty of mafia players that play invisible and always have. He is not one of them.
3) Two things:
a) There are no stupid questions.
b) Why are you defending him so hard over an FoS?
Ninja edit:
No clue. He replaced out shortly after this.
I don't think it was his first scum game though.
I haven't dropped it on you. I'm simply not as sure that I'm right about you as I am TFF. I'm 100% on him and about 95% on you.
In my previous post about this with you, I said it is dropped for now, meaning I don't care to discuss it further with you, but it's still on my mind.
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1) It isn't evidence in the sense that you're using it in, because people do it regardless of alignment
2) I don't intend to condescend anyone, but I can't really help how I sound. Whether someone has always played invisible or not hold no bearing on their intentions. There a thousand possible explanations for which him being scum is only one. Perhaps one only discovers invisible mode recently. The point is that people do other things on this site than play mafia, and if they want more privacy, then that's what they want
Let me now show you a scenario where a townie initiated invisible mode. Perhaps said townie is like me, unable to take scope of whole games, and only works on certain leads they happen upon at a time. Or also like me, they have their control panel as a homepage and check it every time they boot up their browser. Nobody rational expects somebody to post every time they read the thread, especially at the frequency that I do. They don't want to be accused of lurking for being seen reading the thread without posting, because (a) a mislynch harms their team and (b) they will be unable to provide insight for their team due to death. Invisible mode seems an optimal choice here.
3) Stupid, silly, logically unsound, loaded, pick your words, I don't care. It's just not a good question.
I'm not so much defending his choice than I am attacking your reasoning. If I didn't, you'd likely be unaware of the negative side of assuming such a stance. Plus matters of privacy are, well, private.
I don't believe I've even seen a post from him outside of mafia.
Regardless, it's dropped, but not forgotten.
Then he must have stopped using it for awhile because I'm as sure he was visible during our 3 games together as I am sure that I'm a chick.
And I'm pretty damn sure about that
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
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Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Hey, Manders; this is what we like to call "sarcasm"; but I'm sure RafK appreciates the defense like I did, too.
AsianInvasion basically broke down Some One's post much like I would have if I'd gotten to it first. Terrible stuff from SO.
This is an extremely over-defensive reaction to the AI post above, particularly the stuff addressed at AI. All the "big words to make me look smarter" at the end - I'm trying to figure out what the point is; enlighten me, Some One?
This is classic town TFF analysis. I like what I'm seeing here.
These points are extremely weak, and I doubt you really felt that way at the time. I think you got caught off guard and reacted spontaneously.
This should not count as a post for the purposes of prodding/replacement.
Uhh, Manders; if memory serves me correct, I brought up the invisible point against my scum buddy Moe. It has amused me to no end, however, that you continue to harp on people about that point in this game. It only "worked" there because I knew he was scum, ya know?
Also, as someone else pointed out:
This.
Unvote, Vote: Some One
Should've stuck with my random vote, apparently, because this looks like freaked out scum to me.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
What are you saying with that second point, I don't understand. I clearly expressed my thoughts, and you are saying those weren't actually my thoughts? It alludes me how you can draw such conclusions given all of the information I presented.
DYH seems to be about the same as his usual, in that he's kind of standing back and managing, rather than getting in and really fighting. However, I generally read DYH pretty poorly, so take that with a pretty good dose of salt.
I'd have to say my biggest suspicions would be on AI, as I don't like the way he was going after Some One--it's like he's trying to be subtle about it, yet not really succeeding.
I've been getting the feeling that Az is town both from his case/wagon on me as well as the general reaction of everyone towards it. I jumped on the scum jokes because it seemed way too over the top for a town player and more like a scum messing with people, but with the discussion about it from AI and others I'm seeing I was probably a bit misguided. I don't see Azrael as scum at the moment, but I'm not 100% on him being town, either. Currently he's in my "leaning town" pile.
If everybody in the town thinks Az is town, then he's a better target for a nightkill than if there's some contention about him being scum. Why would they should somebody that we might lynch? If there's no chance of him being mislynched, then he's more likely to get taken out by the scum. His response sounds facetious and sarcastic, but it's still something of a legitimate concern.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
You feel that Az is town because everyone likes Az case on you?
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
QFT
I'm aware of that, but what I said is no less relevant.
QFT
While you did bring it up, I fought him on it relentlessly because I knew I was right and he was lying. Had he not replaced out, I likely would never have dropped attention on that role.
Nevertheless, it is now relevant as I will not be basing any decisions on whether anyone is invisible or not.
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And because the numbers were against him. I see him counting heads, here:
Lastly, pointing out this:
This guy's a machine.
I'll get caught up reading those links when I get back from work.
No. I had a random vote on AI when I unvoted.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
So why would Azrael be at all concerned with you voting for that person and probing you for information?
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This sentence really bugs me. The highlighting of seems reads disingenuous to me.
I can't see the differences between Some One there and Some One anywhere else. The meta patterfn only really emerges later in the game for him.
I am totally reading your sig right now.
I would are you're not still here so much here as posting. There have been several comments about you since our last post.
This is all over the place...
i dislike this post - especially Day 1.
-----
RE: tordeck. I think I replaced out of a game as scum early when life caught up with me and I didn't have time to post. I don't think too much can be read form it.
-----
Some One could go either way for me. He has overreacted to AI, but it wouldn't be the first time I have seen him overreact that way.
His response to TFF is bad though. It was such a simple question, and such a overly-wrought response.
I get what you were commenting about, I'm wondering why you chose to do so in such an over-the-top fashion. As for the second part:
This does a much better answer summing it up than I did. Basically, you said way too much for me to believe that was the thought process going through your head when you reacted the way you did, short of point 3 (ongoing game). Where was that detail in the initial response, rather than the explosive reaction we saw instead?
Let's assume I'm wrong, do points 1 and 2 really make you that angry?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I will not vote until I see a Votecount.
I learned my lesson.
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Do you have any original input whatsoever?
I'll admit yes, it looks like I was trying to spin it. I was trying to figure it out, and a confusion tactic is what it looked like to me. For people who are used to Az's play I'm sure it's fine, not a problem for them. I first saw it as someone who has a multi-vote ability. I wondered for a moment if it was real, then figured that if he was posting it in the thread then it probably was. It wasn't until Zchinque questioned its meaning in his votecount did I really think it might not have been real. So instead of thinking it was a part of Az's playstyle, my mind stuck to the role ability track, mostly because he had bolded them and the word vote was used, which made it look more official and game-like to me, and I didn't think anyone would be playing with the rules/game structure in such a manner. I see I was mistaken.
It helps. I'm not a great analyst, I can't pick apart someone's posting that well. But if he's built a great case that people are liking, he looks better in my eyes. He's been very active since the beginning, and people not shouting BS on him en masse makes him look pretty good to me. Is it possible he's just scum tricking everybody? Sure. But I don't have reason to believe that yet.
I find your posting frustrating. But I assume you're okay with the person you're casing having no idea what you're saying. Being able to communicate in the open without your target understanding is very useful. I'd ask you to explain, but I'll just wait for the discussion from others to figure it out.
You have yet to post anything of value, vezok. You're attempting to stay present in the game without doing any work, just pointing a finger here or there along with two wagons, and do nothing to help either one move forward or backward. If you'd just do something, you'd look a less scummy in my eyes. But all you've done is stand in the crowd and shout in agreement. I understand you attempt to survive until the end of every game, and I get how that makes things more enjoyable for you. But you have posted nothing of any worth whatsoever, complained about having to read the thread, and unless you want to do some work to help catch scum, you are a hindrance to the town. vote:vezokpiraka
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
-But isn't that the most important part?
I wouldn't assume that.
Emotions can be easier to fake as scum than it is to disguise the subtleties of your thought process.
The flip side of the coin, which makes this very difficult, is that the text can sometimes take on some pretty scummy embodiments out of a very hard-to-understand twist of a townie mindset.
And then there's another option: Ibug may not have the emotions we might normally expect from a scum under pressure.
Its quite a mess.
1. Manders isn't quite as in control anymore, this makes me happy :).
2. Az started posting more smiles for all :).
3. AI did not repent/narrow focus on his 5ish fos's at once pleas consider my vote confirmed.
4. Az is not scum, he is too open and confident currently we can come back to him later.
5. Vezok should be lynched because he gives me a headache.
6. The inherent issue of being famous is that you are likely to die at some point scum or town, I do not think that any of the aforementioned famous people are scum currently, wait till night time and see what pops up for more info on these guys. We KNOW that whatever their alignment they will be targeted by at least a few night actions therefore we should let them stew at least during day 1.
Now lets answer CED shall we?
I am pro softclaim but this particular softclaim seems ineffective. The cult mention is because in addition to its ineffective nature I am pointing out it could also theoretically hurt the town without really having much of a chance to help us.
Would you rather I gave my reasons to you one at a time and then only came up with a more compelling reason as the first few were shot down?
A case by its very definition is made to lynch someone. I will only make a case on someone I believe to be scum already, however once I HAVE made a case in general, unless convinced otherwise, I would like it to follow through into the death of the person I am making the case upon. In summary a case should be made to lynch an already found scum, if evidence comes out that the person having a case made upon them is town then the case stops. If evidence comes out they are scum then it is added to the case for the person to defend against.
A couple sentences for each point is over-the-top? When removed from context, it was definitely necessary to restate the context when answering TFF's question.
What is wrong with the first point? He called me out for posting junk/role flavor. They are far from the same thing, wouldn't you agree?
I think calling it an explosive reaction is an exaggeration. The detail in the intial response is present when it is in context for all three points.
With point 3 out the window:
Point 1 is a dumb point to make to support a case; likewise for the second point. The first point may as well not exist and the second point isn't far off. Thus, there's nothing wrong with being dumbfounded by such frivolousness.
Nice of you to catch up to where I was about 2 days ago
Nothing AI has done in the past few pages has partularly persuaded me he's not scum. Vote stands.
It feels a bit odd to not be the person driving a day 1. I think I need to come up with some questions for people to generate some reactions I can work with. The arguments so far involving Some One and Manders and all have no handholds for me.
----------------------------------------------------------
Votecount:
indomitablebug (7) - Azrael, Zchinque, vezokpiraka, Some One. dropkickdude, MandersHex, ced395
Azrael (3) - Wrath_of_DoG, Syrenz, ~Tilde~
Some One (3) - Talore, AsianInvasion, DYH
DYH (1) - Emo_Pinata
AsianInvasion (2) - ~V~, RafaelK
vezokpiraka (1) - indomitablebug
Nakamura is being prodded.
Syrenz is replacing in for tordeck.
With 22 (still) alive, it is (still) 12 to lynch.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I gotta retract my read from Ibug just from his last post.
unvote
Vote someone
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Check out the Shop Thread
although it should say "probing him for information"
Glad you're feeling better now. Food poisoning is no joke.
/barn
Exactly what about his post made you change your mind. Use quotes to explain yourself.
Or replace out, as you are not helping at all the way you are now. There are still plenty that would love to have your spot.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!