But it doesn't change anything. You initiated a trade with me, which is really not a tell for you.
Really? I routinely acknowledge how well you can read me.
So, if I were scum, why the hell would I choose you, of all people, to transfer with?
You accepted one from Zionite, but refused one from Poggy. This is woefully inconsistent, and I don't see any compelling reason why you would accept Zionite and not Poggy.
Then you're blind because I've said it many times.
You are generally guarded with information as town. As town, I would have expected you to not accept either other trade offered to you.
So you'd expect me to ignore one of the mechanics of the game? Nice try.
Especially when you are simply not acting like you do as scum.
Quoted for emphasis.
In other games where you were scum(that I was in at least), it became obvious fairly quickly. I think that is the case here.
How many games have we been in together where I was scum?
Also Manders, if you truly think Cyan is scum I think we should wait until tomorrow to sort it out. Cyan commonly dies night 1 as town anyways, so just let the scum deal with it.
True, but he is the best lead right now, so my vote stays.
Really? Because that would make me scum. Why would knowing someone is scum make you sad?
Because you're quite valuable as town.
That was a terribly insincere statement. And I'm sorry, did you just say that you left out trading flavor because YOUR flavor sounds scummy? Guilty conscience much?
No, just telling the truth. I'm town yet have scummy sounding flavor, imo.
vote lost profit
Way to hop on the wagon there, scummy.
Now to come clean: MandersHex is very unlikely to be scum based on her ability. I'm not going to reveal it because it's not mine to reveal. But it doesn't make sense on a scum player at all.
Cyan I'm not sure of. I think maybe he's just trying to find his spark in this game to push a worthwhile wagon and it just hasn't come up yet. I can't see scum Cyan being this public so early on. I'd like to revisit him tomorrow though, when it's more likely we'll see tells from him.
My "group affiliation" out of context makes me sound super scummy but I will still give it up with more information to put it into context. I would like to know from zionite if mander's ability makes him town or scum or impossible to tell. Because mander's flavor sounding scummy may mean that she's scum
vote lost profit
Way to hop on the wagon there, scummy.
The wagon of one.
Now to come clean: MandersHex is very unlikely to be scum based on her ability. I'm not going to reveal it because it's not mine to reveal. But it doesn't make sense on a scum player at all.
In a game where trading and quoting parts of role PMs is a mechanic, I'm not sure where you expect this type of analysis to lead.
You overreacted, but at no point did you vote them, nor did you think they were scum. You just ad-homed and complained about a lack of case.
Right, because I didn't think any of them were scum, just stupid and wrong. Cyan is not stupid, but he is wrong.
And, to point this out, the only time I've come under pressure from Cyan was when I was town and he was scum. (Well, once we were both town, but he didn't really pressure me too much)
Oh, and in the one game where I was scum, he never once stated he thought I was scum. Go look for yourself. It was Joss Whedon mafia.
The difference is that there you believed it was unfair that you were getting pursued without a case as town and expressed your frustrations poorly.
Here you take a misunderstanding on Cyan's part as a chance to push the wagon back at him.
Why are you so quick to believe it was a misunderstanding? I believe it was misinformation provided to smear me. Because he's scum and I'm not.
And, to point this out, the only time I've come under pressure from Cyan was when I was town and he was scum. (Well, once we were both town, but he didn't really pressure me too much)
Oh, and in the one game where I was scum, he never once stated he thought I was scum. Go look for yourself. It was Joss Whedon mafia.
You mean the game where he was a serial killer?
If you want me to look at other games, you're going to have to give names. I have no idea which ones you two played together.
Why are you so quick to believe it was a misunderstanding? I believe it was misinformation provided to smear me. Because he's scum and I'm not.
For one, I believe Cyan is town. Additionally, "misinformation to smear you" presents a false dilemma, that at least one of you two would have had to be scum. This is not such a brilliant play if he's aiming for your lynch.
You can present it however you like, but the situations are not similar.
They are in that I was town there and am town here.
You mean the game where he was a serial killer?
Yeah, he was. So?
If you want me to look at other games, you're going to have to give names. I have no idea which ones you two played together.
I've already listed them, except the one where we were both town (Highlander). Where I was town and he was scum was Indiana Jones mafia and Anita Blake mafia.
For one, I believe Cyan is town.
Why?
Additionally, "misinformation to smear you" presents a false dilemma, that at least one of you two would have had to be scum. This is not such a brilliant play if he's aiming for your lynch.
It is since he's the one that's scum in this instance.
Seriously, I want reasons why you think he's town because he's done nothing to make me think that he is.
You'll also note that, in games where I was scum and you were town, I always waited until near the end to have a go at you. And it's worked pretty well. Why would I change that now? I wouldn't.
Keep coming up with arguments that don't make sense though, scum.
I seem to recall you fighting with Seppel until we lynched you. My wagon didn't even start till after you were dead.
And, weren't you in Dictionary Mafia?
Nope, that game was over before I came here.
You'll also note that, in games where I was scum and you were town, I always waited until near the end to have a go at you. And it's worked pretty well. Why would I change that now? I wouldn't.
Ah, but you're forgetting Superhero mafia. Granted it was cancelled D1 because my mason partner ☺☺☺☺ed up, but you gunned for me right away.
Plus, I'm pretty sure you tried to go after me a little early in Indiana Jones, but abandoned it till later.
Keep coming up with arguments that don't make sense though, scum.
Bite me, and I mean that in the friendliest, non-flamingly way possible.
Superhero doesn't count, I was in complete desperation mode that game when Kpaca decided, once it was FAR too late, to try and get out of being my 'mason partner'.
And that didn't happen in IJ.
Also, what about the game where DYH was obvscum and went after you and I defended you adamantly? And was right(about him being scum AND you being town)?
I really don't remember having an incorrect read on you once, ever. And I really don't think this time is any different.
Considering that you were(according to you) working from a perspective of no information, why would you just assume that AI was neutral?
That's not putting it a different way, it's the same thing I've answered a few times now.
Are we really supposed to believe that it was just because he didn't go out of his way to include the town WC when he was telling us that part of his WC was for Zionite to survive? Why wouldn't you probe him on this, rather than just assuming he's neutral?
Saying he's claimed neutral IS probing him. He has to contradict it or let it stand.
Sorry, didn't realize that you you said you didn't initiate multiple trades.
But it doesn't change anything. You initiated a trade with me, which is really not a tell for you. You accepted one from Zionite, but refused one from Poggy. This is woefully inconsistent,
There is a clear difference between trading the "fluff" information (some of which may be relevant) and trading an entire dossier including ability and limit break info. I don't see the inconsistency.
Also, I have to believe that some scum would try and trade information with me, in this type of setup. Most likely, every scum will try to trade with someone every night.
Perhaps. There probably is scum who gain from knowing, say, dates of birth or something odd like that. What I can't necessarily see is scum trading ability and flavor info (unless they especially have shiny happy flavor they want the world to see, to throw people off, of course!).
Yes, we are totally worried about this guy disappearing if Zionite dies. Would that he does.
Oh, and hi Malcolm! Aren't you the guy that Jobie spotted in the signup thread as having got into the game without actually signing up for the game? Nice of you to join us.
He has no need to hunt scum as a SK, especially as he was apparently unlynchable? I only read the first few pages.
He's said himself, in this game, that SKs act more like their town meta than their scum meta, so that would have to include scum-hunting, which he did do when he wasn't fighting with Seppel. Just not my way iirc.
In fact, I think he did nail the first scum the first day. But it wasn't me.
Because I have not yet found myself wondering "Where is Cyan this game?"
Um, neither did I in either Indy or AB. I think he's changed his meta on you since you last played with him.
Again, if he were scum and forcing the issue, he would be offering himself up one for one to take you out.
He kinda is, just by going so gung-ho. No way would either of us survive if the other came up town. So, yeah, your point is null.
@ Cyan- Superhero does count since you were already on me when kpaca did that. Nice try, though.
Because I've seen other people do it before in other games and seemed like a good way of making sure it didn't get swept under the run.
And yes, when was the last time you saw a case that was based off of a singular instance of fishing. If I want to start something with someone I'll vote for them at the end of the post.
Speaking of which, if I'm so scummy where's your vote?
What? You just defended yourself by saying that you wanted to call them out for something without starting anything, now are attacking Manders for doing the same? Explain, please.
I'd like to be the hammer vote for all lynches (excepting a lynch on Zionite, obviously). I think it's better to establish this now rather than later because I'm probably going to end up doing it anyway and I don't want people to be too surprised when it happens.
If you expect your win condition to change, why are you trying so hard to make sure it doesn't need to? And why do you want to be the hammer on a lynch, instead of being elsewhere on it; if not for a role-related reason?
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. If I were forced to full-claim later on down the road and hadn't already revealed my win con, I'd probably be auto-lynched because no one would believe me. Now that you know up-front that I have an unusual role you'll have some idea of what to expect.
Why so eager to avoid suspicion down the road? Simply saying you have a strange ability won't remove suspicion if you claim something absolutely insane.
Really. What difference do you suppose that would even make given that I intend to be on most lynch wagons?
Well, if you hopped on earlier, we'd have more time to discuss it and somebody else would have to hammer. That can be helpful down the road, rather than just having a neutral hammer all the time.
For God's sakes, Zi, you know my ability! Of all the partial transfers to decline, yours would have been it! I have NOTHING to hide!
Unless your ability was something like a doc-protect, or some other town-like ability. Accepting an ability trade hardly clears you. What all did you trade with Zuzu? Was it enough that last night you traded all of your info?
@ Cyan: No, not cornered at all. Feeling very sure of my read on you.
Yes, we did transfer all stats. I left out flavor because it sounds really scummy, but I really like you when you're town and was hoping that was the case here. Apparently it is not, and that makes me sad.
Why would you think you would be lynched based on flavor?
So I haven't seen a whole lot yet that warrants a serious analysis so I've decided to throw something at you guys, I'd like to know if you are a half vampire. You don't have to respond because this is hardcore fishing for info, but knowing this will help me(and the town). Once again feel free to not respond but I'd appreciate knowing.
So I haven't seen a whole lot yet that warrants a serious analysis so I've decided to throw something at you guys, I'd like to know if you are a half vampire. You don't have to respond because this is hardcore fishing for info, but knowing this will help me(and the town). Once again feel free to not respond but I'd appreciate knowing.
...
"Hey guys, since you're not busy just tell me your role and I promise everything will be okay!"
Why would you need to ask that question? You shouldn't trust people unless you think they're town. It's not enough to just not think they are scum.
I'm not as paranoid as you are, I guess.
Wagon of one? There were FAR more than one vote on MH when you jumped on. Speaking of which... Mod: Vote count, please.
The two other players, Zionite and poggydude unvoted before I put my vote on. That left only Cyan on the wagon at the time.
It's very possible, and even likely, that some people interact with knowing parts of people's role PMs.
I know this. My point is that there are almost no "solidly town" abilities in a game like this. For the most part, they have to be possible for either alignment.
So I haven't seen a whole lot yet that warrants a serious analysis so I've decided to throw something at you guys, I'd like to know if you are a half vampire. You don't have to respond because this is hardcore fishing for info, but knowing this will help me(and the town). Once again feel free to not respond but I'd appreciate knowing.
For whatever its worth, knowing this will likely hurt the person claiming it (and probably the town).
What? You just defended yourself by saying that you wanted to call them out for something without starting anything, now are attacking Manders for doing the same? Explain, please.
What I said and what manders said are very different for one. But the real answer that your looking for is in the very post that you quoted. I said that when I want to start something with someone that my vote will be attached. Since manders said that I was scummy (not just suspicious mind you), I asked where her vote was.
If you expect your win condition to change, why are you trying so hard to make sure it doesn't need to? And why do you want to be the hammer on a lynch, instead of being elsewhere on it; if not for a role-related reason?
By "expect" I really mean "cause." Doing so is not without side effects, though, hence why I'd prefer to keep my current win con.
If I'm somewhere else on the wagon there will be an artificially high number of votes on it. It's better for me to hammer so the actual sentiments of people vested in the lynch can be demonstrated. I mean, I guess I could always place the penultimate L-1 vote but that's just not as cool.
Why so eager to avoid suspicion down the road? Simply saying you have a strange ability won't remove suspicion if you claim something absolutely insane.
Like scum, I have to plan for the endgame, which involves making sure I'm not lynched at an inopportune time. You'll understand when I get around to full-claiming; it's really quite an elegant role.
Well, if you hopped on earlier, we'd have more time to discuss it and somebody else would have to hammer. That can be helpful down the road, rather than just having a neutral hammer all the time.
The actual act of placing the hammer vote is generally not a scum tell unless there has been a dearth of discussion leading up to the vote. It's what players say (or don't say) while voting that matters most. If the town has come to a consensus and has decided on the best lynch then who hammers is academic. Let that be the case here (unless scum are winning, in which case go buck wild).
Unless your ability was something like a doc-protect, or some other town-like ability. Accepting an ability trade hardly clears you. What all did you trade with Zuzu? Was it enough that last night you traded all of your info?
I'd like to mention that Cyan was the mafia doctor in Indiana Jones. That is all.
I seem to recall you fighting with Seppel until we lynched you. My wagon didn't even start till after you were dead.
Nope, that game was over before I came here.
Ah, but you're forgetting Superhero mafia. Granted it was cancelled D1 because my mason partner ☺☺☺☺ed up, but you gunned for me right away.
Plus, I'm pretty sure you tried to go after me a little early in Indiana Jones, but abandoned it till later.
Bite me, and I mean that in the friendliest, non-flamingly way possible.
Disagreed. Never been a fan of lynching probable neutrals.
Disagree with your disagreement. I think lynching a neutral when we are up a scum works out well in our favor. You might as well consider a neutral a member of the scum team who has outed themselves.
"I would rather try and find scum and lynch them than lynch someone who is probably neutral. I don't see any problem with him sticking around at the moment. And while post count is not specifically a good indicator, your posts/votes have had little other than "X is scum." Zionite atleast elaborated when questioned as well as been fairly active on top of that. If you're pushing for AsianInvasion lynch purely as a policy lynch "Neutral might as well be scum" then that is stupid."
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MTG: The RPG Character: Zenith RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
Disagree with your disagreement. I think lynching a neutral when we are up a scum works out well in our favor. You might as well consider a neutral a member of the scum team who has outed themselves.
If you think AI is lying, then it might be a good lynch. As a neutral however, he only ever becomes scum at LYLO, and so there are no instances where it is preferable to clean up neutrals instead of hunting scum.
Put another way - his presence might make LYLO arrive a day earlier, but that has the same effect with regards to shortening the game by one day as would using a lynch on him.
If you think AI is lying, then it might be a good lynch. As a neutral however, he only ever becomes scum at LYLO, and so there are no instances where it is preferable to clean up neutrals instead of hunting scum.
Put another way - his presence might make LYLO arrive a day earlier, but that has the same effect with regards to shortening the game by one day as would using a lynch on him.
Right, but we can't trust anything he says or does, so we just assume cut him out the picture as early as possible. I'm not advocating lynching him now, but after we lynch scum today (protip: vote Rafk).
Right, but we can't trust anything he says or does, so we just assume cut him out the picture as early as possible. I'm not advocating lynching him now, but after we lynch scum today (protip: vote Rafk).
If we lynch a scum or two, he actually has incentives to help us.
So I haven't seen a whole lot yet that warrants a serious analysis so I've decided to throw something at you guys, I'd like to know if you are a half vampire. You don't have to respond because this is hardcore fishing for info, but knowing this will help me(and the town). Once again feel free to not respond but I'd appreciate knowing.
"Half vampire? Did he lose the first half from attacking the girl?" *chuckles*
"On a more serious note: Do you have something that says if/how vampirism can be passed on? (Since it sounds like you know a vampire is in our midst). Or, since this is a half-vampire, if they can still pass it on? Finally, do you know if vampires are defacto 'evil', or if there are 'good' vampires too? I ask this, because my first impression is not good. Dire Bere was speaking of a vampire attack (ANOTHER vampire attack) before the attempt to kill him was done. "
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MTG: The RPG Character: Zenith RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
You never asked a question regarding the reasoning for my vote, so I never gave you reasoning.
Now that you have asked, I will choose to answer.
I will answer.
But it was pretty obvious the question that I was implying. I don't like when people make me spell out things that should be obvious.
Early game he's very focused on finding out as much about other roles as he can. He asks AI several questions which may or may not have town consequences. He then says we need to "seriously open up dialog" on our dossiers, and as previously stated I have game info that says dossier info can be used against you. He claims he doubts AI's claim and says AI is running a scum gambit. If poggy actually believed this his vote should be on AI by this point. His last post casts further doubt on AI with a barrage of worthless questions asking for worthless answers that wouldn't tell us anything.
[B]vote lost profit[/B]
Way to hop on the wagon there, scummy.
Now to come clean: MandersHex is very unlikely to be scum based on her ability. I'm not going to reveal it because it's not mine to reveal. But it doesn't make sense on a scum player at all.
Cyan I'm not sure of. I think maybe he's just trying to find his spark in this game to push a worthwhile wagon and it just hasn't come up yet. I can't see scum Cyan being this public so early on. I'd like to revisit him tomorrow though, when it's more likely we'll see tells from him.
If you had info that MH was unlikely to be scum why did you attack her so quickly?
I honestly don't know what to do with this right now. I'm not sure as to what this means but Manders has plenty reason to accept trades, so there's some other reason she didn't want a full dossier trade. I don't know what it is. It could be a mafia reason or a town reason, but it's not going to be opened for discussion right now. We can leave it for later.
[B]unvote[/B]
Ok i'm done leading the town. Cyan you do it for a while.
Manders claimed to have 3 people, me Cyan and poggy. I traded a small amount of info with her. Cyan claims he traded a full deck. Poggy claims he attempted to trade a full deck and was refused.
Unless Cyan is lying we have reason to believe Manders is being inconsistent. Why would she go full disclosure with Cyan and not Poggy? There's certainly no game reason since it was Night 0. If she was afraid of info being spread too much she wouldn't have traded any of us.
Also, I have a confession: I requested a full dossier transfer with manders, I thought wincons would be traded and hoped a dumb scum would give me some insight into his abilites, it was a freaking awful play and most likely will not be repeated.
Didn't you say that you had asked guardman about trading wincons?
calvin no hard feelings for being an anti-trading person. your explanation is ok with me. but i still reckon that scum will totes have stuff in their pms to give them away
I don't see why. This is a game designed around the free trade and flow of all role information. Assuming that the mod would have made the scum easy to spot simply based off of role info is extremely unlikely.
Cyan is typically not this aggressive as scum. His arguments against RafaelK are a bit of a stretch but I find that to be more in line with town-Cyan than scum-Cyan.
I think that his aggression has more to do with what he ate that day, than his alignment.
I think that you were just in a hurry to declare AI neutral(probably to keep people from thinking too much about the fact that, if a role requires another player to stay alive, at the very least the other player is probably town), and didn't stop to think about the full ramifications of such a role.
You're reaching hard. This is a pretty weak scum motive. Especially considering that a better move for scum would just be to cast doubt that AI was telling the truth in the first place.
Aside: We should probably lynch AI tomorrow after Rafk flips scum.
I think a vig shot would be far more appropriate.
------------
I'm not convinced on MH being scum right now. The info-sharing contradiction seems to be cleared up and aside from that the only major issue is her overreaction to Cyan. I'm not sure if that means anything though, as I'm pretty sure that she also overreacted in Highlander as town. She has an inconsistency regarding RafK that I would like to see addressed though.
I'm more interested in Zionite. Inconsistency regarding RafK as well, and another inconsistency regarding his behaviour toward MH.
{Suggestion: Spoiler tabs, one for each player? I got tripped up a bit when it switched players. Also, ya know, just because walls-of-text become more reasonable when you can unwall it. 40ppp is pretty long already.}
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MTG: The RPG Character: Zenith RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
I suppose I can be persuaded into helping the town if the alternative is eating a bullet to the face before I even figure out if Zionite is town or scum. I have an ability that is very useful to the town, but I won't claim it until Day Two at the earliest because it's the kind of ability that gets a lot worse once it's public knowledge. Consider this post your breadcrumb.
@Malcolm: Please feel free to elaborate on how I've been useless.
@Calvin: If Cyan had been able to provide the numerous examples he implied there were, it would have been a strong point against Raf. I didn't state Cyan was reaching until after he was unable to provide the examples.
{Suggestion: Spoiler tabs, one for each player? I got tripped up a bit when it switched players. Also, ya know, just because walls-of-text become more reasonable when you can unwall it. 40ppp is pretty long already.}
Please don't, as I cannot open long spoilers from my phone. Luckily, I should be getting a new computer during Thanksgiving, but until then, I'm pretty limited in what I can and can't do.
@AI: Earlier you were "more than happy" to help the town. Now you "can be persuaded" to help the town. This isn't an option. If you want me to stay alive, you're going to help the town. Otherwise I'm not going to guarantee your win. This isn't something you're allowed to change your mind on. You're either going to help the town or I'm pushing for your lynch or loss.
@AI: Earlier you were "more than happy" to help the town. Now you "can be persuaded" to help the town. This isn't an option. If you want me to stay alive, you're going to help the town. Otherwise I'm not going to guarantee your win. This isn't something you're allowed to change your mind on. You're either going to help the town or I'm pushing for your lynch or loss.
Frankly I'm getting very annoyed with you talking about AI's win, in case you haven't noticed it wants you alive. So when you say things like I'll be pushing for your loss I expect to see you lynch yourself.
With that said i agree with most of your post, AI had better help the town or else.
What's wrong with talking about it? Everyone else still is.
AI needs to be motivated to help town. To do that I'm obviously going to have to threaten his loss if he doesn't do what we want. Right now his wavering support is unacceptable.
I'm in class today but I'm going to try to allay Calvin's fears in the next post.
Again, just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm scum. I'll play how I want. As long as I'm active and looking for scum, I don't see what play style has to do with alignment.
Eh? You don't feel it's enough to lynch RafK?
Why did you make this post then?
It's more of "I want to know Cyan's motivations" rather than "I'm thinking of lynching RafK". I found his push forced and wanted to probe it further.
To answer more directly, no this is clearly not enough to lynch RafK. I love metagaming as much as anyone else, but this wasn't direct enough to use it as the sole reasoning for a lynch.
I made the post to probe Cyan for more info.
If you had info that MH was unlikely to be scum why did you attack her so quickly?
Now THIS, is what I figured set your alarms off. As they should. I did it to see who would hop on the wagon. You can see this when I vote for Lost Profit. But his reaction put me off, so now the entire ruse was for nothing. Not a big deal though, there will be more opportunities. Early on I thought about pushing for manders just to avoid her getting NKed, but I think the setup is too swingy for that.
Really? I routinely acknowledge how well you can read me.
So, if I were scum, why the hell would I choose you, of all people, to transfer with?
Then you're blind because I've said it many times.
So you'd expect me to ignore one of the mechanics of the game? Nice try.
Quoted for emphasis.
How many games have we been in together where I was scum?
True, but he is the best lead right now, so my vote stays.
This isn't the first time I've been pressured by you, and I've held my own in previous instances.
Because you're quite valuable as town.
No, just telling the truth. I'm town yet have scummy sounding flavor, imo.
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Way to hop on the wagon there, scummy.
Now to come clean: MandersHex is very unlikely to be scum based on her ability. I'm not going to reveal it because it's not mine to reveal. But it doesn't make sense on a scum player at all.
Cyan I'm not sure of. I think maybe he's just trying to find his spark in this game to push a worthwhile wagon and it just hasn't come up yet. I can't see scum Cyan being this public so early on. I'd like to revisit him tomorrow though, when it's more likely we'll see tells from him.
He's welcome to answer that question.
So you've never seen me overreact to a vote as town?
Say no and I'll call you a BSing liar, ongoing game or not. .
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Yeah, I really doubted I was the only one. Thanks for that, though.
As for LP, I want to see his response to my question before I make a decision.
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In a game where trading and quoting parts of role PMs is a mechanic, I'm not sure where you expect this type of analysis to lead.
You overreacted, but at no point did you vote them, nor did you think they were scum. You just ad-homed and complained about a lack of case.
The difference is that there you believed it was unfair that you were getting pursued without a case as town and expressed your frustrations poorly.
Here you take a misunderstanding on Cyan's part as a chance to push the wagon back at him.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
@Lost Profit: Based on my read of manders and the role info I have on her, I can safely assume at least for the day she is town.
Right, because I didn't think any of them were scum, just stupid and wrong. Cyan is not stupid, but he is wrong.
And, to point this out, the only time I've come under pressure from Cyan was when I was town and he was scum. (Well, once we were both town, but he didn't really pressure me too much)
Oh, and in the one game where I was scum, he never once stated he thought I was scum. Go look for yourself. It was Joss Whedon mafia.
Why are you so quick to believe it was a misunderstanding? I believe it was misinformation provided to smear me. Because he's scum and I'm not.
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You mean the game where he was a serial killer?
If you want me to look at other games, you're going to have to give names. I have no idea which ones you two played together.
For one, I believe Cyan is town. Additionally, "misinformation to smear you" presents a false dilemma, that at least one of you two would have had to be scum. This is not such a brilliant play if he's aiming for your lynch.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
They are in that I was town there and am town here.
Yeah, he was. So?
I've already listed them, except the one where we were both town (Highlander). Where I was town and he was scum was Indiana Jones mafia and Anita Blake mafia.
Why?
It is since he's the one that's scum in this instance.
Seriously, I want reasons why you think he's town because he's done nothing to make me think that he is.
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Because I have not yet found myself wondering "Where is Cyan this game?"
Again, if he were scum and forcing the issue, he would be offering himself up one for one to take you out.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Vote: Rafk
And, weren't you in Dictionary Mafia?
You'll also note that, in games where I was scum and you were town, I always waited until near the end to have a go at you. And it's worked pretty well. Why would I change that now? I wouldn't.
Keep coming up with arguments that don't make sense though, scum.
@Malcolm: Based upon..?
I seem to recall you fighting with Seppel until we lynched you. My wagon didn't even start till after you were dead.
Nope, that game was over before I came here.
Ah, but you're forgetting Superhero mafia. Granted it was cancelled D1 because my mason partner ☺☺☺☺ed up, but you gunned for me right away.
Plus, I'm pretty sure you tried to go after me a little early in Indiana Jones, but abandoned it till later.
Bite me, and I mean that in the friendliest, non-flamingly way possible.
@Malcolm: Please be more useless.
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And that didn't happen in IJ.
Also, what about the game where DYH was obvscum and went after you and I defended you adamantly? And was right(about him being scum AND you being town)?
I really don't remember having an incorrect read on you once, ever. And I really don't think this time is any different.
That's not putting it a different way, it's the same thing I've answered a few times now.
Saying he's claimed neutral IS probing him. He has to contradict it or let it stand.
Reading is fun!
There is a clear difference between trading the "fluff" information (some of which may be relevant) and trading an entire dossier including ability and limit break info. I don't see the inconsistency.
Perhaps. There probably is scum who gain from knowing, say, dates of birth or something odd like that. What I can't necessarily see is scum trading ability and flavor info (unless they especially have shiny happy flavor they want the world to see, to throw people off, of course!).
Yes, we are totally worried about this guy disappearing if Zionite dies. Would that he does.
Oh, and hi Malcolm! Aren't you the guy that Jobie spotted in the signup thread as having got into the game without actually signing up for the game? Nice of you to join us.
He's said himself, in this game, that SKs act more like their town meta than their scum meta, so that would have to include scum-hunting, which he did do when he wasn't fighting with Seppel. Just not my way iirc.
In fact, I think he did nail the first scum the first day. But it wasn't me.
Um, neither did I in either Indy or AB. I think he's changed his meta on you since you last played with him.
He kinda is, just by going so gung-ho. No way would either of us survive if the other came up town. So, yeah, your point is null.
@ Cyan- Superhero does count since you were already on me when kpaca did that. Nice try, though.
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My point is that it was a mistake, and that mistake doesn't necessitate that one of you is scum.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Alright, don't worry about it.
Huh? Why does not being in the same clubs as you make her okay?
Why would you need to ask that question? You shouldn't trust people unless you think they're town. It's not enough to just not think they are scum.
What? You just defended yourself by saying that you wanted to call them out for something without starting anything, now are attacking Manders for doing the same? Explain, please.
If you expect your win condition to change, why are you trying so hard to make sure it doesn't need to? And why do you want to be the hammer on a lynch, instead of being elsewhere on it; if not for a role-related reason?
Please clarify this line.
Why so eager to avoid suspicion down the road? Simply saying you have a strange ability won't remove suspicion if you claim something absolutely insane.
Well, if you hopped on earlier, we'd have more time to discuss it and somebody else would have to hammer. That can be helpful down the road, rather than just having a neutral hammer all the time.
Unless your ability was something like a doc-protect, or some other town-like ability. Accepting an ability trade hardly clears you. What all did you trade with Zuzu? Was it enough that last night you traded all of your info?
Why would you think you would be lynched based on flavor?
Wagon of one? There were FAR more than one vote on MH when you jumped on. Speaking of which... Mod: Vote count, please.
It's very possible, and even likely, that some people interact with knowing parts of people's role PMs.
Don't expect an answer to this.
...
"Hey guys, since you're not busy just tell me your role and I promise everything will be okay!"
RafK (1) - Malcolm
Keifru (1) - Gigas1
Lost Profit (1) - Zionite
AI (1) - Keifru
Cyan (1) - MH
MH (2) - Cyan, Lost Profit
Gigas1 (1) - AI
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
The two other players, Zionite and poggydude unvoted before I put my vote on. That left only Cyan on the wagon at the time.
I know this. My point is that there are almost no "solidly town" abilities in a game like this. For the most part, they have to be possible for either alignment.
For whatever its worth, knowing this will likely hurt the person claiming it (and probably the town).
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
What I said and what manders said are very different for one. But the real answer that your looking for is in the very post that you quoted. I said that when I want to start something with someone that my vote will be attached. Since manders said that I was scummy (not just suspicious mind you), I asked where her vote was.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
Nah, he unvoted him at 1 point, but that's just D1.
And, sorry, but he was quite active in Indy.
Then we'll have to disagree because I don't think it was a mistake, as I've already said.
I wanted to know why he thought Cyan was town since I disagreed and why he thought I wasn't playing my town game, because I disagreed, and still do.
Wasn't saying it would, but it definitely goes a long way, imo.
No, there's still some info that I have to myself.
I didn't, but it is the one part of my PM that could possibly be used against me.
Yeah, you're mistaken on this.
Right?
Clubs & groups
He asked for all, meaning all stats, flavor, ability, and limit breaker. I wasn't, and still am not, comfortable with sharing all that with anybody.
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Actually you did.
By "expect" I really mean "cause." Doing so is not without side effects, though, hence why I'd prefer to keep my current win con.
If I'm somewhere else on the wagon there will be an artificially high number of votes on it. It's better for me to hammer so the actual sentiments of people vested in the lynch can be demonstrated. I mean, I guess I could always place the penultimate L-1 vote but that's just not as cool.
Like scum, I have to plan for the endgame, which involves making sure I'm not lynched at an inopportune time. You'll understand when I get around to full-claiming; it's really quite an elegant role.
The actual act of placing the hammer vote is generally not a scum tell unless there has been a dearth of discussion leading up to the vote. It's what players say (or don't say) while voting that matters most. If the town has come to a consensus and has decided on the best lynch then who hammers is academic. Let that be the case here (unless scum are winning, in which case go buck wild).
I'd like to mention that Cyan was the mafia doctor in Indiana Jones. That is all.
Unvote
Pot. Kettle. Black. Right back at yah honky cat.
Aside: We should probably lynch AI tomorrow after Rafk flips scum.
um...seriously? MandersHex probably has the most posts in the game right now. I've only seen like 4 of yours. Get real.
unvote, vote Malcolm
Not tolerating it anymore.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Post count is not a good indicator of usefulness.
What a silly vote.
Disagree with your disagreement. I think lynching a neutral when we are up a scum works out well in our favor. You might as well consider a neutral a member of the scum team who has outed themselves.
RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
Put another way - his presence might make LYLO arrive a day earlier, but that has the same effect with regards to shortening the game by one day as would using a lynch on him.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Right, but we can't trust anything he says or does, so we just assume cut him out the picture as early as possible. I'm not advocating lynching him now, but after we lynch scum today (protip: vote Rafk).
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Honestly guys, if I don't feel the need to hide behind a new account, neither should you.
I can't really see a circumstance where lynching AI really becomes correct. I just hope he gets vigged, frankly.
If it weren't for Lost Profit's "hehe that tickles" reaction to my vote earlier, it'd go back there. I'll just leave it undecided for now.
"Half vampire? Did he lose the first half from attacking the girl?" *chuckles*
"On a more serious note: Do you have something that says if/how vampirism can be passed on? (Since it sounds like you know a vampire is in our midst). Or, since this is a half-vampire, if they can still pass it on? Finally, do you know if vampires are defacto 'evil', or if there are 'good' vampires too? I ask this, because my first impression is not good. Dire Bere was speaking of a vampire attack (ANOTHER vampire attack) before the attempt to kill him was done. "
RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
B]Zionite:[/B]
But it was pretty obvious the question that I was implying. I don't like when people make me spell out things that should be obvious.
OK.
It meant c) I can't stand those players.
Eh? You don't feel it's enough to lynch RafK?
Why did you make this post then?
If you had info that MH was unlikely to be scum why did you attack her so quickly?
So the sole purpose of the vote was to up his post count? Bad.
[B]pggydude[/B]
Didn't you say that you had asked guardman about trading wincons?
[B]Zuzu Petals[/B]
I don't see why. This is a game designed around the free trade and flow of all role information. Assuming that the mod would have made the scum easy to spot simply based off of role info is extremely unlikely.
[B]AI[/B]
Ah, thanks for that info. That makes my theory much more likely.
OK.
I think that his aggression has more to do with what he ate that day, than his alignment.
Shush, you.
[B]Cyan[/B]
You're reaching hard. This is a pretty weak scum motive. Especially considering that a better move for scum would just be to cast doubt that AI was telling the truth in the first place.
As has been noted, this is far from the mark.
Have you considered that we're hiding from you?
[B]MH[/B]
So Cyan's case on RafK was a reach? Why did you say this then:
[B]Malcolm[/B]
We meet again. Don't replace out after a couple of posts this time, 'mkay?
I think a vig shot would be far more appropriate.
------------
I'm not convinced on MH being scum right now. The info-sharing contradiction seems to be cleared up and aside from that the only major issue is her overreaction to Cyan. I'm not sure if that means anything though, as I'm pretty sure that she also overreacted in Highlander as town. She has an inconsistency regarding RafK that I would like to see addressed though.
I'm more interested in Zionite. Inconsistency regarding RafK as well, and another inconsistency regarding his behaviour toward MH.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
@Calvin: If Cyan had been able to provide the numerous examples he implied there were, it would have been a strong point against Raf. I didn't state Cyan was reaching until after he was unable to provide the examples.
Please don't, as I cannot open long spoilers from my phone. Luckily, I should be getting a new computer during Thanksgiving, but until then, I'm pretty limited in what I can and can't do.
@AI: Subtle breadcrumb, lol.
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@AI: Earlier you were "more than happy" to help the town. Now you "can be persuaded" to help the town. This isn't an option. If you want me to stay alive, you're going to help the town. Otherwise I'm not going to guarantee your win. This isn't something you're allowed to change your mind on. You're either going to help the town or I'm pushing for your lynch or loss.
Frankly I'm getting very annoyed with you talking about AI's win, in case you haven't noticed it wants you alive. So when you say things like I'll be pushing for your loss I expect to see you lynch yourself.
With that said i agree with most of your post, AI had better help the town or else.
AI needs to be motivated to help town. To do that I'm obviously going to have to threaten his loss if he doesn't do what we want. Right now his wavering support is unacceptable.
I'm in class today but I'm going to try to allay Calvin's fears in the next post.
Well, tough. I like people to address me formally and I return the favor. How does making you be more direct make me scum?
Again, just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm scum. I'll play how I want. As long as I'm active and looking for scum, I don't see what play style has to do with alignment.
It's more of "I want to know Cyan's motivations" rather than "I'm thinking of lynching RafK". I found his push forced and wanted to probe it further.
To answer more directly, no this is clearly not enough to lynch RafK. I love metagaming as much as anyone else, but this wasn't direct enough to use it as the sole reasoning for a lynch.
I made the post to probe Cyan for more info.
Now THIS, is what I figured set your alarms off. As they should. I did it to see who would hop on the wagon. You can see this when I vote for Lost Profit. But his reaction put me off, so now the entire ruse was for nothing. Not a big deal though, there will be more opportunities. Early on I thought about pushing for manders just to avoid her getting NKed, but I think the setup is too swingy for that.
I disagree. Votes are great prods.