Oh wow, I didn't think I was ever going to get back. I've been gone for so long, that I'm not sure what's been going on. I did see a couple of things I wanted to comment on, though.
For the second time, it's not lynching the mod, people. It's seeing what she had already written in our attempt, read that again: attempt to lynch her. Again, the worst that will happen is we will be at the same position we are now. What is everyone's problem with that?
It takes the focus away from the actual game. Instead of voting for the mod, we should vote for people we actually find scummy.
The "Enough! Lorne is in the game. Continue " Vote Count
Please don't confirm or deny which roles are in game. Impartiallity and all that.:teach:
With it being the weekend of the 4th, I may or may not be able to post for the remainder of the weekend. I will be posting more frequently afterwards, though.
I hate this post. It's a minor scumtell that he's killing the random phase right off the bat, and it's a personal tell to me. It tells me that he's interested in getting the game moving along quick, which is something scum want to do. Scum want to get to night, and skipping the random phase is one way to do it.
Plus it throws all the other players off guard, which gives atlseal a chance to attack someone over something ridiculous.
Actually, in my time off, I had done some more reading about the game and found out that there's normally two modes of thought about the start of the game. The first is the random voting stage (which is the only thing I've seen played here), the other is a psuedo-random question like the one I asked. I just wanted to try a different start than this site has seen before.
I will admit that I was trying to throw other players off guard a little. It's a better way to try to get into their psyche.
This is the main reasoning for his vote on NW, and after this he is mostly sure of his caught "scum". This vote was on the first page and he carried it over the entire day. It was a weak wagon that lead to a mislynch, it should have never happened and it all stems from this. From someone who claims to know a lot about the game, look for scumtells and recognize newbieness, he does a fairly good job of ignoring his senses here.
Yes, this was where the wagon started, but you can't blame me for keeping my vote on him after the responses to the wagon he made. He was not playing like a town player. He was playing selfishly which is not towards the win condition. Town players should be trying to find scum whereas mafia players are the ones that try to stay alive and sow mistrust among the town to accomplish this. Which camp did NW fall under? That's right, the second one.
A few things to note here. First, he has the shock and surprise that his weak vote took off into a wagon. Most town players would take a step back and wonder why it accelerated so quick. atlseal just rolls with it like "cool, that's just what I was hoping for!" I'm betting there is at least another scum on that wagon too.
Also, he casts suspicion onto Powerrox for barning. Not only does he barn right here, making this very hypocritical, but it's important later as well.
I did wonder why it accelerated so quick, but it is my belief that I could find out more information about the player base by letting the wagon continue. I don't disagree that there's at least one more scum on that wagon between Powerrox, Muffin Man, and you. Powerrox reads solidly town.
Difference in barning between us being reiterating same ideas as your own, or acknowleding which player you are attributing to that idea. In this case, it is saying "I agree with <x>" as opposed to trying to pass the idea off as your own.
Here, he excuses Powerrox as not scummy for the same reason he fosed him in the first place: barning. First atlseal says barning is suspicious, then says that's what clears him.
Also does some posturing here. Reinsures the town that he's still totally for this wagon whilst jumping off. It's like a distraction tactic. He's still jumping off, just pointing the other way and saying "look a distraction!"
1) I went back, re-read, did some more thinking, and changed my mind about Powerrox. Excuse me for not sticking to my guns when I think I was wrong.
2) So are you saying you disagree with letting all players check in before someone is forced to claim?
Very eager to lynch NW here.
Also, what about a fake mod lynch screams scum? This is casting unneeded suspicion.
Again, displays hatred for randomness and a need to get along with the day. His posting here is very urgent. Urgency is not a townie attribute.
Actually, very eager for the town to focus and not get distracted. You mentioned just above that you think distractions are a scummy thing. What do you call unvoting and voting the mod with no reason to do so? That's exactly what ExlighT, your predicessor, did.
It's not a hatred for randomness, it's a desire for focus so as to not get distrated by meaningless stuff.
Tries to turn a simple situation into an either/or situation. It doesn't have to be either of these options, but he tries to paint another player as scummy over it. This is scummy.
Ok, if it's not either/or, I challange you to name one other reason since I already stated that I was going to vote him back to L-2 once everyone had a chance to check in. Just so people don't have to go back, the post I was referring to was:
based on atseal's obvious reluctance to have nacho go to L-2 im begining to think they are both scum and are covering each other...FoS atseal
Still don't see the massive importance of the beginning question. Care to explain that? I'm not answering it btw.
You get an insight into each player's mindset and playstyle. Is that such a bad thing? Again, it was merely a replacement that's been used in other games for the random vote stage. Does it look like I've asked you to? No? It's because we have a lot more information now and it's not needed.
More posturing. Whether he says so or not, he's not on the wagon and that's a fact. He's pushing it but he's not there. Put the vote on and keep it there, that's what dedicated town does. If you don't want someone to claim until people check in, say that. Don't unvote. That's bad.
Why is that bad? The history is there for people to read and see that I was for the wagon as you have done.
Very little analysis here, but throws down his support. Really, this early in the game, atlseal is just anxious to lynch anybody.
Throwing my support behind an ExlighT wagon. Nowhere did I say lynch. You are putting words in my mouth.
Shows a little fear here. He's on that wagon, obviously, so when people bring up suspicion of it, he's got to speak up and say something. This reads to me like 'you're suspicious? It's not me is it?'. I also don't like the word curious here, it seems like he's trying to be too innocent, but that's speculation.
Nope, wrong again. You always get ideas of each player on each major wagon. That way, even if they aren't voting, you have a record of their opinion on the wagon.
Uses heavy, heavy WIFOM here. Look at the mafia wiki, check Only True Scotsman. I would link, but I'm dead tired.
Anyway, the whole "if you were town" is baseless WIFOM and he uses that to throw his vote back on. Plus, it's obvious to see that NW was a total newb here, and it's a newb game to boot. atlseal has recognized several other players as newb, but never admitted that for NW.
Also, care to explain why not claiming is always a scum move? Seems like in NW's case it was a town move.
Did you read the articles that Az posted on detecting scum? You look at the reasoning behind posts and look for indication of a scum mindset (survive) or town mindset (hunt scum). If you're a town power role and playing like you should, you don't end up behaving like nacho wizard did. He was not playing toward his win condition. You can't blame me for reading him wrong.
Setting up the next days lynch and doing it on crap logic. "Oh he was scum so you must be too!" is a great way for scum to lead other players into a mislynch.
By this point, I was convinced that nacho wizard was scum. Look back up to the post ExlighT made that I quoted here about my connection between him and me. If nacho wizard was scum, it's a nice little piece of trying to tie us together. That was the major source of my suspicion on ExlighT.
Ok, so he obviously understands the point Tordeck is trying to make, but he doesn't refute the point. I do believe that the opening question is a version of meta-fishing.
I just wanted to make sure I knew what tordeck was referring to. Fishing normally refers to looking for players' role information. What I did was none of that. It was meta behavior analysis to be sure, but random voting is just small-scale behavior analysis.
Mod-gaming. Also shows support for TMM, this will come in later.
Defends TMM as newb, very suggestive that he's town. This also will come up later.
No, not mod-gaming. Go look at the the hosting thread. There are restrictions on what you can do in a given game. Basic games are just that, basic. It is academic.
Fearmongering. It's really scare-tactics is what it is. At this point, it was painfully obvious that NW was not being scummy, but rather he was being purposefully beligerant. That's reason enough to stop the lynch. You don't lynch on beligerance, you lynch because they are scum.
Actually, no it's not. It's a player going "woe is me" and refusing to play. Again, if you a town power role, this is not how you play.
Here's where the TMM stuff gets important. It's almost as if he tries to make people forget that he was the main pusher of the NW wagon and goes and blames TMM. Not only that, but as I said earlier, atlsealwas being defensive of TMM and had no problem with him, and now this very sudden heap of blame and scumminess comes out of nowhere, at least to me.
I now had information I did not have the day before. Namely, that NW was indeed town.
So far atlseal has been calling people newb and excusing their actions on one hand, and then blaming them and calling them scum for little things on the other.
I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that I'm using newb play as both evidence for and evidence against different players?
Tries to make a weak tie between me and Xlight, as if to carry over some lever of suspicion onto me. The only thing me and Xlight have in common is the role we were given. Don't mudfling like this.
Of course you're tied. You're as closely tied as two players can get in this game. Youhavethesamerole. I was just asking for vote reasoning.
Yeah, you make a comparision between me and XLight. That's bad.
Why?
And you seem bothered and jumpy about my vote. Bad reaction.
What about it seemed bothered/jumpy?
Also, care to point out where else you've been frustrated over unjustified votes?
I never said in "this" game. I was speaking of games in general.
Cause you've made some yourself.
Show me.
This is great. In point one, he's got a big cocky attitude about answering my case and how he'll prove it wrong. First, that's a way of saying "I'm town this is nothing" and that's suspicious. Also, he tries here to mudfling onto my case before it even happens. This is BS.
BS is using the "he's trying too hard to be town so he must be scum" argument.
Jumps his vote around some more, just barn's onto the Tordeck case. Didn't he cast suspicion onto someone for barning earlier? That's right he did, hypocritical scum is hypocritical.
It's not that you barn, it's how you barn. Again, explained already.
I don't even know what this short little quip is supposed to mean? Are you saying Tordeck is OMGUSing, asking him, what? Cause with just that little statement, it seems like mudflinging.
Nope, it was a joke. As in "OMG, you suspect me? VOTEVOTEVOTE". Just said in a different way. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Wow, superbad. He's essentially trying to get the mod to hand over a role. He really honestly thinks that we can lynch manders to get her to tells us if someone is falseclaiming or not. That would be the mod handing over classified information. He might as well PMed her asking for role information.
More support for that terrible idea. Brushes it off as player error. That's pure BS.
The harm is all on you. It's a terrible idea, it's something a scum would try. It's almost like cheating too. No, wait, it is cheating, but it's never going to happen.
NO. No. no. nay. Now he's proposing for skipping the whole process and just getting a handed over scum.
This seems like a scum trying to seem clever to the town and nab another mislynch. Like "look at this great foolproof idea guys, let's catch scum with each other!" except it's totally terrible.
Prepare the crow! You there, back in the kitchen, fetch us the lowest quality crow you have! This guy said he'd eat it all!
But seriously, you can't even be 100% sure about this because you aren't running the game. Terrible logic here.
If you can't see the problem, I'm not going to bother explaining it again. Ok, I lied, I will.
YOU CAN'T ASK THE MOD TO GIVE AWAY ROLE INFORMATION. THEY WON'T DO IT. THAT'S WHY THIS IS A GAME.
tl;dr: You don't like the idea of just seeing the flavor the mod prepared earlier, that she said she has prepared. That is just sitting there for us to find out. I've already said I believe tordeck's claim. I just want to make sure. Again, what is the harm in that?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I'm going to be spending a lot of time at the LCS today, but I have skimmed a few of atlseal's responses, and they are bad. Expect yet another response later tonight.
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Thanks to SGT_Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Avvy and Banner!
Actually, in my time off, I had done some more reading about the game and found out that there's normally two modes of thought about the start of the game. The first is the random voting stage (which is the only thing I've seen played here), the other is a psuedo-random question like the one I asked. I just wanted to try a different start than this site has seen before.
I will admit that I was trying to throw other players off guard a little. It's a better way to try to get into their psyche.
That's a scummy answer if ever I've seen one. So you asked the questions with the intentions of digging into people's minds to get information.
Yes, this was where the wagon started, but you can't blame me for keeping my vote on him after the responses to the wagon he made. He was not playing like a town player. He was playing selfishly which is not towards the win condition. Town players should be trying to find scum whereas mafia players are the ones that try to stay alive and sow mistrust among the town to accomplish this. Which camp did NW fall under? That's right, the second one.
No, but you started the wagon that lead to the lynching of a townie.
On the whole subject of lynching Mander's, I think there's no point to it actually. TACKY brings up a good point and the responses that atlseal made to them makes me suspicious. Unvote. Vote: atlseal
Fine, I give up on trying to get the mod to post the flavor text she had prepared. Unvote: Manders as it's obvious now that nobody else just wants to have a little more verification.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
TACKY, in order to make it easier for other players to read, I'd like us to boil down your argument against me to its base components. If I'm incorrect about your arguments or missing some, please correct me (again, I'm trying to boil down your argument to its base components):
1) I didn't participate in the random voting phase which allowed a flimsy case on nacho wizard to be formed
2) I was the main proponent of NW's lynch,while half of the time I did not have my vote on him
3) Being hypocritical about the barning argument
4) Using WIFOM argument to try and show NW was not a power role
5) Blaming TMM for being part of the NW wagon while I, myself, was part of the same wagon while I showed no suspicion of him the first day
6) Trying to get the mod to post the flavor she mentioned that she had
Am I missing anything or did I categorize them wrong?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
TACKY, in order to make it easier for other players to read, I'd like us to boil down your argument against me to its base components. If I'm incorrect about your arguments or missing some, please correct me (again, I'm trying to boil down your argument to its base components):
1) I didn't participate in the random voting phase which allowed a flimsy case on nacho wizard to be formed
2) I was the main proponent of NW's lynch,while half of the time I did not have my vote on him
3) Being hypocritical about the barning argument
4) Using WIFOM argument to try and show NW was not a power role
5) Blaming TMM for being part of the NW wagon while I, myself, was part of the same wagon while I showed no suspicion of him the first day
6) Trying to get the mod to post the flavor she mentioned that she had
Am I missing anything or did I categorize them wrong?
I actually find this rather insulting, to be perfectly honest. There is no need to do this. One simply has to actually read (*gasp!*) TACKY's post to see the evidence against you. Boiling it down is unnecessary and condescending, not to mention that it takes away some of his argument.
I actually find this rather insulting, to be perfectly honest. There is no need to do this. One simply has to actually read (*gasp!*) TACKY's post to see the evidence against you. Boiling it down is unnecessary and condescending, not to mention that it takes away some of his argument.
No offense was intended by the post.
Instead of repeating argument/counter-arguments multiple times within the same post and creating longer and longer posts, I tried to capture the heart of all his arguments. There's arguments, and then there's supporting evidence. This is just an attempt to separate the two.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Instead of repeating argument/counter-arguments multiple times within the same post and creating longer and longer posts, I tried to capture the heart of all his arguments. There's arguments, and then there's supporting evidence. This is just an attempt to separate the two.
So you want people to see the arguments without seeing the corresponding evidence?
So you want people to see the arguments without seeing the corresponding evidence?
The evidence is up above for all to see. In fact, I responded to all of it. This is just an attempt to keep his and my argument from growing larger and larger and to make the argument clear and concise and to remove the clutter.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
TACKY, in order to make it easier for other players to read, I'd like us to boil down your argument against me to its base components. If I'm incorrect about your arguments or missing some, please correct me (again, I'm trying to boil down your argument to its base components):
1) I didn't participate in the random voting phase which allowed a flimsy case on nacho wizard to be formed
2) I was the main proponent of NW's lynch,while half of the time I did not have my vote on him
3) Being hypocritical about the barning argument
4) Using WIFOM argument to try and show NW was not a power role
5) Blaming TMM for being part of the NW wagon while I, myself, was part of the same wagon while I showed no suspicion of him the first day
6) Trying to get the mod to post the flavor she mentioned that she had
Am I missing anything or did I categorize them wrong?
TMM is on the right track here, although it's not insulting. It's just scummy. This is a common scum tactic used in hopes of distacting people away from the case: ie, they make it look smaller than it is. You boil it down for convienence, sure, but the fact that the case was so long, and had so many minor points and scumtells too, means that reading the boiled down version will cause the townies to miss a lot.
As for these points, let me correct you a bit. My numbers correspond to yours.
1. You personally killed the random phase and created a flimsy case. Your words here act like you had no participation.
2. Not really the vote issue so much as your reasoning. The best reasoning you ever gave for his lynch was that first overreaction and a lot of WIFOM. That AND you were jumping on and off like a hyper-gopher.
3. Yeah, this one seems alright.
4. No, just using WIFOM in general. You used it in several places, but most importantly as justification for your vote and for his lynch in general. That's how you won over the town to his lynch, with WIFOM.
5. Again, that's not the whole picture. You deflected onto TMM and Tordeck right after the day started, and you didn't really have a problem with either. At the end of D1, after Tordeck hammered but before the day was over, you had already posted your "Damn, why'd you hammer post". Then, you come in right off the bat D2, posting "Tordeck is scummy cause he hammered WHY'D YOU DO THAT!", acting surprised when you'd already made this post before. You deflect responsibility onto both Tordeck and TMM.
6. No, again you kind of miss this one. It's scummy to try and get her to hand you over role information. What you were asking was for her to post flavor to determine a specific character's presence. That's like straight asking the mod for role information, and it wasn't going to happen. You were playing it like a genius heroic townie, which makes me uneasy as well.
But like I said, it's much better to read the case. I encourage that, and then read atlseals responses, see if you still don't think he's scum.
TMM is on the right track here, although it's not insulting. It's just scummy. This is a common scum tactic used in hopes of distacting people away from the case: ie, they make it look smaller than it is. You boil it down for convienence, sure, but the fact that the case was so long, and had so many minor points and scumtells too, means that reading the boiled down version will cause the townies to miss a lot.
As opposed to throwing almost every post up on the wall and seeing what sticks (another common scum tactic)?
As for these points, let me correct you a bit. My numbers correspond to yours.
1. You personally killed the random phase and created a flimsy case. Your words here act like you had no participation.
2. Not really the vote issue so much as your reasoning. The best reasoning you ever gave for his lynch was that first overreaction and a lot of WIFOM. That AND you were jumping on and off like a hyper-gopher.
3. Yeah, this one seems alright.
4. No, just using WIFOM in general. You used it in several places, but most importantly as justification for your vote and for his lynch in general. That's how you won over the town to his lynch, with WIFOM.
5. Again, that's not the whole picture. You deflected onto TMM and Tordeck right after the day started, and you didn't really have a problem with either. At the end of D1, after Tordeck hammered but before the day was over, you had already posted your "Damn, why'd you hammer post". Then, you come in right off the bat D2, posting "Tordeck is scummy cause he hammered WHY'D YOU DO THAT!", acting surprised when you'd already made this post before. You deflect responsibility onto both Tordeck and TMM.
6. No, again you kind of miss this one. It's scummy to try and get her to hand you over role information. What you were asking was for her to post flavor to determine a specific character's presence. That's like straight asking the mod for role information, and it wasn't going to happen. You were playing it like a genius heroic townie, which makes me uneasy as well.
These are to counter your arguments, not to counter your evidence as I did in my post above:
1. Nowhere did I say in my first post that we can't do random voting. I said that I wasn't going to random vote. Other people just happened to chose the same thing. That's not my fault.
2a. WIFOM applies if you're trying to say "scum wouldn't act like this" because it behoves scum not to act like you'd expect. It does not apply in the case of "a town power role wouldn't act like this" because things like what happened yesterday happen when a town player doesn't act like they should.
2b. Going on/off the wagon (only before everyone had checked into the game), while the whole time saying "Count me on this wagon", and my votes reflect that.
3. As explained in the counter evidence post, the major difference is whether or not your attribute your thoughts to the original poster.
4. See point 2a above
5. Wow. Have I ever seen a more bald-faced lie? You're trying to put words in my mouth. Everyone, just go back and read the end of Day 1, beginning of Day 2. Nowhere did I act like that. The closest I get is:
Quote from atlseal »
Indeed, why the quick hammer? Especially since I specifically requested a comment from each player on the wagon.
6. Except that she already said she had prepared a bit of flavor text if the town jokingly decided to try and lynch her. I just wanted to see what that flavor text was to make sure about tordeck.
Can I vote you harder? First, he's posing to the town, as if posting a town list without being asked is going out of his way for us.
So? Did I say it was a great challenge? No. Vezok just asked for a scum list, so I gave him both of my lists.
Second, look at his scum. He suspects his main attacker, the guy he was calling newb town yesterday, and the three lurkiest players in the game.
I've suspected ExlighT18 since yesterday with his baseless votes, jumping on and off wagons. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the day, but your case used to justify a vote with the whole throw everything up and see what sticks attitude has that desire diminished.
I already explained about TMM. Alignment reveals of those that died changed my outlook on some of the players in this game.
You can't get any read on lurkers because they lurk. We should not allow them free passes just because they have so few posts.
Finally, remember he was super attacking Tordeck earlier today. How'd Tordeck suddenly jump to town, eh atlseal?
It's almost as if you haven't been reading my posts. I already said I believe his claim.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
My top 3 scum list is atlseal, blue, and Powerrox.
Interesting. And why do atlseal and myself make it on both of your lists?
Powerrox why do you suspect TACKY?
TMM why do you suspect Powerrox?
Right now my scum list includes Tordeck. I can't game the mod for flavor of his claim. Even though it's a "valid claim" and as yet it's uncountered, it doesn't mean that he's town Lorne.
While I don't have a read on the lurkers I'm upset they're not posting more. Chubbz and SP and Vezok all fall into this category.
but you admit you were fishing. My problem is with how you are defining fishing. It's convenient that your definition makes your kind of fishing ok while other people are scum for it.
His attempt to get reads/ roles based on player experiences and thoughts on how they prefer to play
I don't understand this sentiment. Fishing means trying to out a power role. The scum already know who's town or not the don't need any more information except the power roles. How is what atlseal asked geared toward outing a power role? I need you to explain your logic and I'm tired of asking you this question.
I admit it was a bad hammer. I was frusterated at the forum mods for something that happened in my clan thread and when I saw red text in the game I literally saw red and hammered just to get rid of NW's bs. He was not playing and was making it unfun. At least for me.
This is not a defense. The game we're playing is supposed to be fun but what you did was inherently selfish. It ended the day which allowed for no more analysis and got rid of a troll who was annoying you. The hammer was bad even if he had turned up scum.
atlseal: Will respond to your question in a little bit.
The problem I have atlseal is you cleverly unvoted tordeck to vote mandershex but when you saw that it wasn't going to work you didn't revote tordeck? Why is that?
As opposed to throwing almost every post up on the wall and seeing what sticks (another common scum tactic)?
I didn't, I only picked out the scummy ones, which happens to be a large majority. But rest assured, I didn't just go through and grab all your posts for no reason. You can double check that.
These are to counter your arguments, not to counter your evidence as I did in my post above:
1. Nowhere did I say in my first post that we can't do random voting. I said that I wasn't going to random vote. Other people just happened to chose the same thing. That's not my fault.
2a. WIFOM applies if you're trying to say "scum wouldn't act like this" because it behoves scum not to act like you'd expect. It does not apply in the case of "a town power role wouldn't act like this" because things like what happened yesterday happen when a town player doesn't act like they should.
2b. Going on/off the wagon (only before everyone had checked into the game), while the whole time saying "Count me on this wagon", and my votes reflect that.
3. As explained in the counter evidence post, the major difference is whether or not your attribute your thoughts to the original poster.
4. See point 2a above
5. Wow. Have I ever seen a more bald-faced lie? You're trying to put words in my mouth. Everyone, just go back and read the end of Day 1, beginning of Day 2. Nowhere did I act like that. The closest I get is:
6. Except that she already said she had prepared a bit of flavor text if the town jokingly decided to try and lynch her. I just wanted to see what that flavor text was to make sure about tordeck.
1. You didn't just say you weren't random voting, you said you were killing it right off the bat. I don't know if those are your exact words, but that was the exact intention.
2a. No, you're wrong. WIFOM is there whenever you say wouldn't or shouldn't or something like that. Not everybody plays the same. Not everyone plays PR's the same. And who's to say what he should have acted like? What you are arguing against him is WIFOM, and saying it's not is a blatent lie.
2b. You can say count me on this wagon all day long, but in the end the only thing that actually counts you on that wagon is a vote.
3. I'm going to have to go through the counterevidence. I'm not planning on responding to the mass of it anymore, I've been hella busy, but I don't understand the point you're making here. I'll have to read some.
4. See my response.
5. Yeah, my bad, I kept thinking your FoS on Chubbz at the beginning was on Tordeck. But you do still cast some suspicion onto Tordeck by agreeing with blue, when on the last post of D1 you just seemed disappointed
6. But what you're asking for isn't ever going to happen. If you did lynch her, and her origional flavor was going to probably hand a player over on a silver platter, she would probably either a. just not do anything and say get back to the game or b. change her flavor. Trying to trick the mod into handing you a role on a silver platter is just ridiculous. And at best, it's a huge distraction from scumhuntting.
I've suspected ExlighT18 since yesterday with his baseless votes, jumping on and off wagons. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the day, but your case used to justify a vote with the whole throw everything up and see what sticks attitude has that desire diminished.
Wow, way to misrepresent me. First, I should think that the extent of my case isn't just justification for my vote, it's damned specific in it's reasoning. Second, I'm definitly not throwing everything up and seeing what sticks, as I've left out quite a few posts of yours that were neutral/not scummy. Third, if this were the case, you would think that quite a few things wouldn't stick, but as it seems, the case is fairly solid and sticks to you like glue, so wouldn't that mean that it's not just me throwing things in the air and more likely that you really are scum? But that part is for the people.
I already explained about TMM. Alignment reveals of those that died changed my outlook on some of the players in this game.
Then explain that to the town when you cast suspicion on people. You may have changed your read on him, but you didn't announce that when you spoke up about him, making the point still hella suspicious.
You can't get any read on lurkers because they lurk. We should not allow them free passes just because they have so few posts.
Then tell them not to lurk, but it's a common scumtell to put lurkers in their scumlists and votes because they are easy targets that often lead to mislynches. In fact, it's been argued in several other games that townies lurk far more often than scum, meaning there are several reasons why your suspicion of the lurkers even worse.
It's almost as if you haven't been reading my posts. I already said I believe his claim.
Dammit, missed that. I've been busy, it's freaking 4th of july and 2 straight days at the LCS (Local Card Shop) has murder my time in cold blood. I'll go catch up now.
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I hammered NW because I did want him out of the game regardless of alignment as he was ruining the spirit of the game and making it unfun. I was also still in a bad mood from going on else where on mtgs so I may have acted hastily. For that I apologise to the game. We should have tried to garner more info on his wagon.
If you're town, you shouldn't (regardless of playstyle, attitude, etc) willingly kill other town. especially PR's
I can see people's souls when they sing. I generally like to stay neutral but when Angel sang it moved me and now I find myself helping him. Stuck in the middle of the battle between The Powers That Be and the Senior Partners
I have no in game abilites
I win when all the minions of the Senior Partners have been emlimiated.
i can believe the claim as a viable character, but was saying vanilla, and no in game abilities really needed?
though he could be lying, since vanilla is the easiest to claim in basics
I can't believe I'm saying this, but there's now a reason to get the mod's lynch flavor. I was working under the assumption that she was Lorne due to the image, but I guess she could also be the PTB. So, to my surprise, I'm going to Unvote, Vote: MandersHex and if she is Lorne, we just caught ourselves an easy lynch.
gaming the Mod. the first post;
Quote from first post by MH »
Also, please try not to mod the game too hard. There's a lot of flavor that is irrelevant.
Ok, I see why the new players are confused. Lynching the mod would not end the day. She would just post the flavor which would include some reason we can't lynch her, the votes would move off her, and the day would continue.
how can you be sure? every lynch i've seen ended the day, why should mod lynch be different?
But I am going to have to FoS: atlseal for that horrible unvoting and gaming the mod. This really looks like he was looking for any reason possible to unvote, and the one he found was blatant mod gaming. And even then he is accusing the mod of helping out a player because her avvy is of his role. Come on. That is just horrible.
I'd rather just make sure, but otherwise tordeck's claim convinces me he's town. That's why I unvoted. The flavor fits.
after Blue made such a good case about Tordeck to convince you to vote for him, you back off from a vanilla claim? you must not have been to dead set on him to back-off so easily...
I believe todek is town yes. That's why I am voting you.
I didn't understand why you said you believed a vanilla claim.
Way to go. Your deflecting onto me.
your justification for voting Atlseal is that tordeck (in your opinion, and via his vanilla claim) is town? i hope i'm wrong on that
while your deflection point might hold, not everything is deflection just because he has points against you
Quote from Tacky »
In fact, it's been argued in several other games that townies lurk far more often than scum, meaning there are several reasons why your suspicion of the lurkers even worse
QFT
TL;DR:FOS: Atlseal.
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Interesting. And why do atlseal and myself make it on both of your lists?
TMM why do you suspect Powerrox?
Right now my scum list includes Tordeck. I can't game the mod for flavor of his claim. Even though it's a "valid claim" and as yet it's uncountered, it doesn't mean that he's town Lorne.
atlseal is on my list for reasons I summarized on the last page, and his ridiculous OMGUS adds to it. You are on my list because I'm leaning scum on you, and that's it for my ideas of scum. I'm not positive on you but you appear to be asking the questions and fishing for a little bit of info. It's not enough to warrant a lynch or FoS, just a hunch I have. For all I know I could be wrong.
On Powerrox: He's kind of a lurker and the posts he has make me think scum, but now that I go back and review his posts they just appear to be nooby to me.
As for Tordeck, Manders named the most recent vote count "Lorne is in this game. Carry On" or something to that effect, so I believe Tordeck.
My new and improved list after reviewing posts. It's also got what I'm leaning. Sorry for the confusion blue, I wrote that kind of fast. Town:
Guardman
vezokpiraka
Chubbz (?)
tordeck Unsure:
Silent Prophet (not a lot of posts)
blue (leaning scum?)
Powerrox (leaning scum?)
TACKY (slight chance of scum) Scum:
atlseal
There we go. I'm not really sure of a lot of people, but I'm confident that Guardman, Vezok, Tordeck, and maybe Chubbz are town.
atlseal is on my list for reasons I summarized on the last page, and his ridiculous OMGUS adds to it.
There seems to be some reason players don't like to read my posts this game. It is not OMGUS just because you vote someone that is voting for you. It is only OMGUS when you do that with no other valid reason for voting. However, I do as quoted in the post that I voted for him: he contradicts himself plain as day within hours.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Actually, in my time off, I had done some more reading about the game and found out that there's normally two modes of thought about the start of the game. The first is the random voting stage (which is the only thing I've seen played here), the other is a psuedo-random question like the one I asked. I just wanted to try a different start than this site has seen before.
I will admit that I was trying to throw other players off guard a little. It's a better way to try to get into their psyche.
So, you were stopping the random dead and you admit you were throwing the town off. Still super scummy.
Yes, this was where the wagon started, but you can't blame me for keeping my vote on him after the responses to the wagon he made. He was not playing like a town player. He was playing selfishly which is not towards the win condition. Town players should be trying to find scum whereas mafia players are the ones that try to stay alive and sow mistrust among the town to accomplish this. Which camp did NW fall under? That's right, the second one.
Uh, yeah, I can blame you. Especially since you went from voting him to swearing he can't be anything other than scum within two posts, both of which are in the first page or two in the game.
Oh, and NW definetly fell into that first pool there, because, you know, HE WAS TOWN. And a PR to boot, a bodyguard, so probably the closest thing we had to a doc.
I did wonder why it accelerated so quick, but it is my belief that I could find out more information about the player base by letting the wagon continue. I don't disagree that there's at least one more scum on that wagon between Powerrox, Muffin Man, and you. Powerrox reads solidly town.
Care to explain why powerrox is solidly town and not muffin? Also, you are saying that you knew the wagon was terrible and accelerated fast and probably had scum on it, but you went through and lynch the townie anyway? What about that screams townie? Oh, that's right, nothing.
Difference in barning between us being reiterating same ideas as your own, or acknowleding which player you are attributing to that idea. In this case, it is saying "I agree with <x>" as opposed to trying to pass the idea off as your own.
So you are saying that TMM just isn't giving credit? And that makes him scum how, especially considering his newb card? Attacking him for it is a weak point, one of the weakest I've seen.
1) I went back, re-read, did some more thinking, and changed my mind about Powerrox. Excuse me for not sticking to my guns when I think I was wrong.
2) So are you saying you disagree with letting all players check in before someone is forced to claim?
1. Great, you changed your mind. Now justify it. That's what I'm having a problem with. You keep changing reads on players without explaining why until much much later, if at all.
2. Yes, because it doesn't matter. A lynch before they show up would be bad, but if the case is legit, a claim before everyone shows up shouldn't be a problem. You are making up a reason to jump on and off the wagon, and it's just plain scummy.
Actually, very eager for the town to focus and not get distracted. You mentioned just above that you think distractions are a scummy thing. What do you call unvoting and voting the mod with no reason to do so? That's exactly what ExlighT, your predicessor, did.
It's not a hatred for randomness, it's a desire for focus so as to not get distrated by meaningless stuff.
The previous attempt to lynch the mod was just a fun aspect of the game since manders had a plan for it. It wasn't a problem when it was innocent fun. When you started doing it to game the mod, it becomes a problem. I Really don't see a problem with distraction onto a silly aspect of the game very shortly to have a little fun and then get back to the game.
Also, the only people who crave to get past the meaningless are scum. You're eagerness to get on with it makes you scummy as hell.
Ok, if it's not either/or, I challange you to name one other reason since I already stated that I was going to vote him back to L-2 once everyone had a chance to check in. Just so people don't have to go back, the post I was referring to was:
Honestly, rereading that scenario, I don't know what either of your two points have to do with his post. This point is confusing though, there are too many references, it just keeps going back and back and then I get lost.
You get an insight into each player's mindset and playstyle. Is that such a bad thing? Again, it was merely a replacement that's been used in other games for the random vote stage. Does it look like I've asked you to? No? It's because we have a lot more information now and it's not needed.
See, the problem is that there have been several other occasions where letting the random phase occur has caught scum very well. Not only that, but the insight gained is really only for your use, and likeyou admitted earlier, you were almost purposefully throwing the town off. Let's say a townie likes playing scum more, you could have turned that around on him. It's much more scummy than townie to do what you did and it certinely comes from a scum mindset.
Also, show me other games where this was used, preferably to successfully catch scum. Cause I don't buy it.
Why is that bad? The history is there for people to read and see that I was for the wagon as you have done.
Because it gives you an out. You could unvote saying you meant to be on the wagon, have a lynch occur without you and use that as an excuse later on. A committed townie would keep his vote on, especially if he was convinced the player was scum. You seemed pretty convinced NW was scum, so the unvotes should have never happened if you were a convinced townie. Unvotes happen because you are a worried scum, worried about what happens to you when you get your mislynch.
Nope, wrong again. You always get ideas of each player on each major wagon. That way, even if they aren't voting, you have a record of their opinion on the wagon.
Yeah, but the way you responded and the quickness at which you did it makes me think you are worried about yourself. People start expressing suspicion of those on the wagon and you instantly pop up with a "who and why!" post, kind of defensively. That's the analysis I got from your post.
Did you read the articles that Az posted on detecting scum? You look at the reasoning behind posts and look for indication of a scum mindset (survive) or town mindset (hunt scum). If you're a town power role and playing like you should, you don't end up behaving like nacho wizard did. He was not playing toward his win condition. You can't blame me for reading him wrong.
Yes, but those aren't rules as much as they are guidelines. If your making the "did you take these things into consideration" point, then did you factor in the newbieness, the obvfrustration and the fact that not everyone plays the same town game? If you did, you would have realized it was a mislynch and unvoted.
However, seeing as how you do know quite a bit about the game, my guess is that you did see those things and just didn't care, because you're scum wanting a mislynch.
By this point, I was convinced that nacho wizard was scum. Look back up to the post ExlighT made that I quoted here about my connection between him and me. If nacho wizard was scum, it's a nice little piece of trying to tie us together. That was the major source of my suspicion on ExlighT.
The point is that tying players together is a great way to lead to a mislynch. You shouldn't be making the assumption that one scum will tie to both his buddies. In fact, many times town will tie to scum accidentally without knowing, making this kind of suspicion dangerous to the town. It's also a tool for scum, and you taking advantage of it is scummy.
I just wanted to make sure I knew what tordeck was referring to. Fishing normally refers to looking for players' role information. What I did was none of that. It was meta behavior analysis to be sure, but random voting is just small-scale behavior analysis.
Like I said, you were totally meta-fishing. Also, as I've said before, the random stage has caught scum more times than not. It's a reliable info-tank for later in the game, if it doesn't catch scum right off the bat. You wanting to end it so fast makes more and more sense with you being scum.
No, not mod-gaming. Go look at the the hosting thread. There are restrictions on what you can do in a given game. Basic games are just that, basic. It is academic.
Well, the mod of a specific game can request approval of something off the wall, so don't pretend you know how all these games work. Mod-gaming.
Actually, no it's not. It's a player going "woe is me" and refusing to play. Again, if you a town power role, this is not how you play.
I've personally seen this exact kind of play come from basics several times, so yeah, when I see that, I unvote, let the guy compose himself/replace out if needed and analyze the situation before I move forward. Scum would take advantage of such an attitude as an excuse to vote.
I now had information I did not have the day before. Namely, that NW was indeed town.
What? This BY FAR doesn't refute my point, which was that you were totally deflecting! I have the same information too, and you are the one who pushed the hardest for his death with the worst reasoning. And you go and blame the whole situation on TMM.
Plus, what is different about TMM than the others? Why blame TMM? You don't give reasoning, you just call him scummy and brush the blame off onto him.
I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that I'm using newb play as both evidence for and evidence against different players?
I'm saying that you have been calling people newb town, like TMM, and then turning around and calling them scum for small points with weak reasoning.
Of course you're tied. You're as closely tied as two players can get in this game. Youhavethesamerole. I was just asking for vote reasoning.
This is now a mute point and it was just a minor annoyance of mine, but it should be known that the only things me and Exlight have in common is the role. To equate me and him any further would be wrong, and it's not for personal reasons, it's just because we are two completly different playstyles.
It's bad because you are trying to carry over the previous player's scumminess onto me by saying we are doing the same basic thing, when really it's not true. My reasoning was just slightly delay, not non-existant.
You hada very immidiate reaction, you responded with a little confusion and you gave a nice and very fake "bring it" response in my opinion, with the saturday comment. You definetly seemed like my vote had gotten far deeper under your skin than you were letting on.
First, that's not how this works. You are supposed to show me that I'm wrong, not the other way around.
Second, I already have shown you. I've repeatedly said that your NW vote was almost completly unjustified, and your extreme confidance only shortly after your vote is also completly unjustified if you are town. It's totally justified if you are scum on your way to a mislynch, which is yet another reason that I'm pretty sure you are scum.
BS is using the "he's trying too hard to be town so he must be scum" argument.
How is this BS? Only Scum have to try to be town, so trying to say things that seem like a boasting town make you more scum. So, in effect, trying to be town makes you scum. Also, you don't actually refute my point here, you just make an attack onto me, which is also scummy.
It's not that you barn, it's how you barn. Again, explained already.
At the time, you didn't explain that. You said simply that barning made him scum. This is the first I've heard of this and it sounds like backtracking.
Nope, it was a joke. As in "OMG, you suspect me? VOTEVOTEVOTE". Just said in a different way. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Only scum joke. Stop it. I may seem a little harsh here, but joking around has been used by scum, and used to catch scum very many times. Sarcasm is the only acceptable form of humor.
tl;dr: You don't like the idea of just seeing the flavor the mod prepared earlier, that she said she has prepared. That is just sitting there for us to find out. I've already said I believe tordeck's claim. I just want to make sure. Again, what is the harm in that?
Because this is bs. I've explained it several times, so I won't do it again, but seriously, bs.
There you go, for anybody interested. This is the part that gets a little confusing to read, the responses to responses, but I encourage it. Sorry, it is long. As hell.
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No, I was taking about IRL games, and it's kinda hard to give them a link.
Why should IRL mafia experiences count online as well
Sarcasm noted. Could you answer my question?
TMM Can you answer my question?
Jake I'd rather not say why I think I'm going to die tonight but I'm putting it out there that it is likely. I'm still grappling with whether or not I should say something in the off chance that what I'm thinking is incorrect. I want to let the day develop more before I say anything.
atlseal is on my list for reasons I summarized on the last page, and his ridiculous OMGUS adds to it. You are on my list because I'm leaning scum on you, and that's it for my ideas of scum. I'm not positive on you but you appear to be asking the questions and fishing for a little bit of info. It's not enough to warrant a lynch or FoS, just a hunch I have. For all I know I could be wrong.
On Powerrox: He's kind of a lurker and the posts he has make me think scum, but now that I go back and review his posts they just appear to be nooby to me.
As for Tordeck, Manders named the most recent vote count "Lorne is in this game. Carry On" or something to that effect, so I believe Tordeck.
My new and improved list after reviewing posts. It's also got what I'm leaning. Sorry for the confusion blue, I wrote that kind of fast. Town:
Guardman
vezokpiraka
Chubbz (?)
tordeck Unsure:
Silent Prophet (not a lot of posts)
blue (leaning scum?)
Powerrox (leaning scum?)
TACKY (slight chance of scum) Scum:
atlseal
There we go. I'm not really sure of a lot of people, but I'm confident that Guardman, Vezok, Tordeck, and maybe Chubbz are town.
While in general I think this post makes you seem more town I don't like the fact that SP is unsure but chubbz is town? Chubbz has posted like three times. How are you so sure about Chubbz's alignment?
@Blue: Tacky was an on the edge call. I had several others that I suspected (Calculating a lot of factors) but it was so even between them and Tacky became my choice by a millimeter's margin.
This is why I feel you're scummier than TMM. You both seem newbish but this seems newb scum because you didn't actually give any reasoning behind your reads here. What are some factors you're using? Why are you calling TACKY out but not the others? If they're all suspicious then list them. Top three means nothing without reasoning behind it. You need to support your argument here.
While in general I think this post makes you seem more town I don't like the fact that SP is unsure but chubbz is town? Chubbz has posted like three times. How are you so sure about Chubbz's alignment?
I'm not so sure. He's at least posted more, and from what he's posted, I'm picking up a sort town vibe. SP's posts have all been ambiguous and non-telling. The question mark next to his name displays that I'm still not positive, though I have a stronger feeling about him being town than the other unsures.
Did I answer your question? Because you asked me to, and I thought I had.
There you go, for anybody interested. This is the part that gets a little confusing to read, the responses to responses, but I encourage it. Sorry, it is long. As hell.
I think I'll just let you get the last word on our argument. You are right that it's just becoming too confusing to have responses to responses. I feel I've stated my case. There's no need to make it any more confusing.
Everyone has our opinions on the whole thing with pretty much every aspect.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
is Silent Prophet dead? i saw him post once, and Vezo said something about him being at a camp or something?
Silent Prophet had internet issues, but I believe those have been corrected. Currently he is enjoying the holiday. He posted on Friday (I believe) or Saturday, so he's good through today.
ok, blue, tell me this; you're questioning tordeck about the hammer then vote TMM? why?
Saw I missed this, sorry.
This will seem contradictory later but I wanted to hear what Tordeck had to say about his bad hammer. While TMM was already suspicious to me because of the way he followed the wagon yesterday with votes/unvotes for very little reason. One post, in fact, was JUST a vote. No other content in it and no validation behind it. I also had a sinking suspicion about something else but I'm questioning that now so I will not reveal it.
Unvote I'm gonna take seriously think over if my call was right or not...
unvote
vote Powerrox
Powerrox your votes yesterday were as bad as exlights and the muffin man. I've re-read all three of you and basically confirmed that I think exlight was town. I'm still concerned about the muffin man but this unvote is just as bad as your votes all day yesterday.
You were voting for tordeck. The wagon stalled because Tacky started debating with atlseal. You unvote. Why did you unvote BEFORE you think about whether you made the right choice in voting in the first place? You should have reasoning behind each vote and unvote and you've never had it anywhere. I know you're newb and sometimes newbs flail votes around but this is awful. Expect a better breakdown of your posts soon.
So this seems scummy as it's a rehashing barn of what someone else already said with a glaringly silly implication on the way he spelled wizard. The silliness I have chalked up to being Exlight's style so from here on I have to try to look past it to see if the content he's providing is pro town or pro scum.
i think they meant IGMEOY which is ive got my eye on you
When he's being serious he's being helpful. The disparity between his silly posts and his serious posts tell me at some times he's "obviously playing the game" but it's still not indicative of whether or not he's scum.
well this might hurt me, but since this my first game ,scum seems to be fun, the thrill of danger at every turn, the stragety of not getting your ass lynched, the excitement of a townie lynch, but then thats just my oppinion
too bad the random stage didnt last, i really wanted to/LYNCH MANDERS]
From this I take it to mean that Exlight may be concerned with his image by stating "This might hurt me." He follows it up with scum seems to be fun. I can't tell if he means "being able to play as scum right now is fun" or "I'm town but scum seems like it'd be fun" It's a null tell for me.
Not sure what the scumwagon unvote means but at this time the only person who has claimed a role is Nacho and he claimed angel. I don't see this as a scum tell even though he seemingly wants to go into a random phase that didn't exist.
your right, but she is modding which makes her GOD, and its always fun to /lynch a religious persona
more serious post even though it's also silly. Not a scum tell. I need clarification why the scum "like the random vote stage" more than town? And I have to remember that it wasn't exlight who ended the RVS and I can't speak for him as to whether he was looking forward to the RVS and was disappointed that it got skipped.
obviously you dont read my posting style in gamers?? im always silly/serious/silly/serious its my ADHD nature...sorry
I can confirm that this is his style of posting outside of the game but again it's neither a defense nor a scumtell for me. So far you can see all I'm getting is one minor scum tell and several neutral reads with one minor town tell.
based on atseal's obvious reluctance to have nacho go to L-2 im begining to think they are both scum and are covering each other...FoS atseal
I went back and reread what atlseal had been doing. I think it's possible that he was unvoting and voting all the time because he wanted to give Nacho a chance to defend himself. But what Exlight is saying was also possible at the time. And it seemed to come from a town mindset.
i didnt read, im forming my own hypothesis based on my own observations like a real scientist!
yes muffin its my style seriously silly
This is in response to atlseals comment that Exlight would know why atlseal was voting/unvoting if he had read what atlseal said. But just because a player says they're doing it for one reason doesn't mean they're being honest. So even if Exlight had read there's no real reason to believe ATlseal was telling the truth. I get town out of this post even though there's sarcasm involved.
This list doesn't express all the feelings he has toward the group but what strikes me as town is he's at least consistent when he calls nacho and atlseal scum and says chubbz and ai need to post more before he'll be able to read them. Here he is portraying a town mindset.
really now?hmm thats disturbing......guess im not good enough for a 60/40? fine then be that way be like rockafeller and give away exactly half of everything
I took this to mean that Exlight was suspicious of Atlseal for "setting up the next day's lynch" I don't know what the rest of that means.
A) im a noob im bound to steal SOMEONES comment :0
B) obviously, you just stole atseals comment....hahaha
C) reason? nachos posts make my eyes bleed....its under my vote rofl
neutral read on the first two but I don't like C at all.
tl;dr: I had to get over the fact that exlight was posting in a silly nature. People are who they are in and out of this game so when I balanced all the neutral tells and compared the scum tells versus the town tells I basically confirmed to myself that Exlight was indeed town.
I may have missed where you detailed this, but confirmed it for you?
I didn't detail it. But there it is now.
The problem with yesterday's lynch is that it had at least three newb votes on it. It's going to be harder to figure out if they were newb scum or newb town but Powerrox's votes were always terrible. So my vote stands on powerrox.
First powerrox I'd like to say that being new is not a bad thing and that it is not "complaining" as you call it. It is difficult to get a read on a newer players sometimes because they come off as jumpy and THAT is often a scum tell too. So when evaluating a new player you have to take into consideration that they're new. The fact that you bring this up in your reasons for voting for me makes me feel like you're concerned with your image. But let's get to the breakdown of why I find you scummy.
Well, I think you did it the first time, And if you didn't do it then, then you did it the second time.
[B]Vote nacho wizard[/B]
Like I said above it's hard to tell if this is newb town jumping on a wagon because you're easily convinced by the argument or if you're newb scum jumping on a wagon to push it along. So this is a null tell for me. Little supporting evidence and just barning what other people say.
[COLOR=blue][B]UnFOS: Powerrox93 [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=black]- The more I think about how he's been playing, the more I realize it's a lot more like a new player than a scummy player. The large amount of barning is the dead giveaway.[/COLOR]
Please note that I am not the only one who has recognized your posting habits as indicative as a new player's behavior. This comes into play later.
Note outside the game: 13-20 July, I'll be away on a trip away from home, but I should be able to access internet once every 3 day at least, but I'm not 100%. Then I'll go on another trip 22-26 July, and there I'm not as sure if I can get internet access, but not entirely impossible either.
This is more thought out than any of your posts in the rest of the game. What you've said here is not indicative that you are scum but how you've said it makes the rest of your posts so confusing.
The more I think about it, the more obvious does it become that I won't regret my vote on Nacho. He's acting to instinctively and forgets the capitalization he need to do.
Forgets the capitalization he needs to do? That's really one of your reasons for voting NachoWizard? Could you point out what you were talking about with regards to nacho's "instinctive play"? This post didn't make any sense and you're barning the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen. To me you're stretching here to make your vote seem more town.
NP mate. Visiting your family sometimes is an important thing. And so is working. So just relax and take it easy mate.
Mostly speculation here but we now know that AI was town. Am I really the only person who sees that Powerrox's posts that pertain to outside the game are a lot more cohesive and constructed and thoughtful than the posts pertaining to inside the game? It's a scummy dichotomy if you ask me
About NW: I think we should lynch him or replace him ASAP. After a completely irrelevant post and the way he's posting he's post, I don't think he wanna play the game anymore.
More barning. Minor nitpick here is that you've proclaimed nacho as scum for using bad grammar/miscapitalization but your own grammar isn't perfect either. Am I supposed to suspect you of being scum simply on that fact? No. But the contradiction and double standard is noted.
My major FoS is atlseal. He wanted to know how everyone reacted on the lynch in order to get information for his own best.
What do you mean for his own best? You're barning AGAIN and again with no substantial opinion behind it. At this point you've added exactly ZERO to this game except contributing to a mislynch of a town.
My experience of mafia is the opposite. If someone claims to be a vanilla, that that's a sign that the person in mind have some scary plans in mind...
It's funny. Your experience of mafia was previously described as this is your first game. I reiterate what I said before. This is fearmongering. Here you're trying to imply that being vanilla is inherently bad. You're also implying that anyone who claims vanilla should be lynched because they have scar plans in mind. But here's the problem. We're in a basic and, while we're not guaranteed three power roles, it's a general rule of thumb that there are three roles. One protector, one information gatherer, one other (usually a vigilante). On top of that the scum usually get something to even the odds in their favor and usually this is a roleblocker (which I believe they have).
You're right that a vanilla claim shouldn't automatically make a person believable town but it is certainly not more or less incriminating to their alignment. Maybe you're not reading the thread because this has been discussed already. Either way this is one of the scummiest posts I've seen in this game.
I don't see a reason of trying to lynch the mod in the first place..Minor update on this one. I will be able post during the 13th and 20th of July.
Finally some consistency. This is the second time you've said we shouldn't lynch the mod. At this point it's a null tell because I believe anyone wanting to play this game fairly should know that lynching the mod to garner more information, regardless of who she reveals herself to be, would be cheating and against the premise of the game: it's a basic and the mod should not have a role nor confirm nor deny if characters do or don't exist within the game.
Well, my post explains it all. Never take a vanilla claim for granted. In fact, I've been losing games because of that.
More consistency. Yes you've said that you shouldn't take vanilla claims for granted but you have only said ONCE why you think tordeck should be lynched and then it was only barning. And you had me suspicious here again because you said this was your first game.
@Blue: Tacky was an on the edge call. I had several others that I suspected (Calculating a lot of factors) but it was so even between them and Tacky became my choice by a millimeter's margin.
Yeah. Great. Fine on the edge sure. But where's your "lot of factors" that you've been calculating as you say? You've provided absolutely nothing up to this point and this post is only remotely town. To me it feels like you're throwing darts at a dartboard trying to see what will stick. Your list of scum is rather interesting if you ask me. Especially considering that all three of us are generating discussion and bringing up valid points, defending them, and debating on the proper course of action. What are you doing? I mean besides trying to cast doubt on the three most active posters of late.
SGT_Chubbz - Needs to post more, but leans towards town
Why does he lean toward town for you? What exactly has he done to make you say this?
vezokpiraka- Town
I'm going to ask the same question vez did here. Why is vez town when he's had almost no posts this game? Did you think him being on vacation was a town tell O_o?
TACKY - Unsure. First, he was leaning towards town. Then later, my opinion changed because of his reaction to other post. But he is still in the "unsure" land.
!!! Are you kidding me with this? First you say he was leaning toward town? When was that exactly? Cuz you JUST said that your top three suspects for scum were TACKY BLUE AND ATLSEAL. Then you say your opinion changed because of his reaction. What reactions and to which posts are you referring? And why did you tell us that you were leaning town on him when the first thing you say about him is that he's scum? And even then why is he in "unsure" land when you said he was among your top scum picks? You're catching yourself up in your own lie here.
tordeck -Leans towards scum. Complains in a way that he might be scum, but other stuff always seems to compensate for that. That there was the vanilla claim, which you should never take for granted
What do you mean complains? I need you to define what you're talking about by quoting it or linking to appropriate posts. You're casting accusations and you're not backing them up. AGAIN.
Guardman - Needs to post more, but leans towards town
Why?
atlseal - Leans very much towards scum. He wanna know stuff that's missing, he makes post that are almost to good to be townish posts and he's caring to much about mod lynch. If those things combines would form a magic card, that would either be Black Lotus or Sorrow's Path
This makes no sense at all. I'm disappointed with what seems to be your first concrete and unique opinion on a player in this game. So you believe he's making town posts and that makes him scum. Your logic makes no sense to me.
The Muffin Man - Unsure, leaning scum? I don't see a clear pattern in his votes
Really cuz you guys vote the exact same way. So you should be leaning scum on your self-read too.
[B]Vote blue[/B]
Omgus vote is omgus.
blue 99,99% sure that he's scum. A few reasons is;
1: Complains [B]way[/B] to much about my extremely little (Online) mafia experience. I fact, that quota is filled for the rest of this game.
2: Complaining about repetition
And the most important one
3: Complains about that I misses arguments, yet he lacks of arguments himself. Large double standards of morality.
Bonus: Last post of him confirms everything above
So let's look at this. You think I'm complaining about your little online mafia experience. I don't know what you mean by this. I'm not complaining as I have stated already. And I had no idea you had real life mafia experience until waaaay later when at that point it seemed like a contradiction.
I need you to explain to me what you mean by "I fact that quota is filled for the rest of this game" because I don't get what you're saying even if that first word is supposed to be "in".
2. What? Are you saying that I'm suspicious because I find that you agree with everyone and repeat what they say as if it's your own opinion. Take a step back, wouldn't YOU find it scummy if someone repeated all of your opinions and never backed them up?
3. Yet again I need you to explain this.
tl;dr Powerrox it boils down to this. You've added nothing to this game, voted for terrible reasons, and just repeated back to us everything the people who posted before you said.
Beyond that, your list of who is and isn't scum shows the three most active players as scum while basically gives a free pass to anyone who hasn't posted much at all. The town logic would say maybe one two or all three of the most active posters were town but to label them all scum seems to me that you want at least one of us gone by lynch so that your scumbuddies can kill off the other two over the course of the night.
1) I read your case for your firm belief of TACKY/ExlighT18 as town. There were only a few more posts that you analyzed as town (no overwhelming majority). However, your firm belief of his townness leads me to believe there's one or two posts that really nail it down for you. Could you highlight which those were?
The town logic would say maybe one two or all three of the most active posters were town but to label them all scum seems to me that you want at least one of us gone by lynch so that your scumbuddies can kill off the other two over the course of the night.
Care to explain that bit?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
!!! Are you kidding me with this? First you say he was leaning toward town? When was that exactly? Cuz you JUST said that your top three suspects for scum were TACKY BLUE AND ATLSEAL. Then you say your opinion changed because of his reaction. What reactions and to which posts are you referring? And why did you tell us that you were leaning town on him when the first thing you say about him is that he's scum? And even then why is he in "unsure" land when you said he was among your top scum picks? You're catching yourself up in your own lie here.
I'm also interested in the answer to this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
atlseal (1) : TACKY
tordeck (3) : Guardman, blue, Powerrox93
Not Voting: SGT_Chubbz, vezokpiraka, atlseal, Silent Prophet, tordeck, The_Muffin_Man
With 10 alive, it is 6 to lynch.
Vezok and Silent Prophet will be prodded after this vote count.
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It takes the focus away from the actual game. Instead of voting for the mod, we should vote for people we actually find scummy.
Please don't confirm or deny which roles are in game. Impartiallity and all that.:teach:
With it being the weekend of the 4th, I may or may not be able to post for the remainder of the weekend. I will be posting more frequently afterwards, though.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
Actually, in my time off, I had done some more reading about the game and found out that there's normally two modes of thought about the start of the game. The first is the random voting stage (which is the only thing I've seen played here), the other is a psuedo-random question like the one I asked. I just wanted to try a different start than this site has seen before.
I will admit that I was trying to throw other players off guard a little. It's a better way to try to get into their psyche.
Yes, this was where the wagon started, but you can't blame me for keeping my vote on him after the responses to the wagon he made. He was not playing like a town player. He was playing selfishly which is not towards the win condition. Town players should be trying to find scum whereas mafia players are the ones that try to stay alive and sow mistrust among the town to accomplish this. Which camp did NW fall under? That's right, the second one.
I did wonder why it accelerated so quick, but it is my belief that I could find out more information about the player base by letting the wagon continue. I don't disagree that there's at least one more scum on that wagon between Powerrox, Muffin Man, and you. Powerrox reads solidly town.
Difference in barning between us being reiterating same ideas as your own, or acknowleding which player you are attributing to that idea. In this case, it is saying "I agree with <x>" as opposed to trying to pass the idea off as your own.
1) I went back, re-read, did some more thinking, and changed my mind about Powerrox. Excuse me for not sticking to my guns when I think I was wrong.
2) So are you saying you disagree with letting all players check in before someone is forced to claim?
Actually, very eager for the town to focus and not get distracted. You mentioned just above that you think distractions are a scummy thing. What do you call unvoting and voting the mod with no reason to do so? That's exactly what ExlighT, your predicessor, did.
It's not a hatred for randomness, it's a desire for focus so as to not get distrated by meaningless stuff.
Ok, if it's not either/or, I challange you to name one other reason since I already stated that I was going to vote him back to L-2 once everyone had a chance to check in. Just so people don't have to go back, the post I was referring to was:
You get an insight into each player's mindset and playstyle. Is that such a bad thing? Again, it was merely a replacement that's been used in other games for the random vote stage. Does it look like I've asked you to? No? It's because we have a lot more information now and it's not needed.
Why is that bad? The history is there for people to read and see that I was for the wagon as you have done.
Throwing my support behind an ExlighT wagon. Nowhere did I say lynch. You are putting words in my mouth.
Nope, wrong again. You always get ideas of each player on each major wagon. That way, even if they aren't voting, you have a record of their opinion on the wagon.
Did you read the articles that Az posted on detecting scum? You look at the reasoning behind posts and look for indication of a scum mindset (survive) or town mindset (hunt scum). If you're a town power role and playing like you should, you don't end up behaving like nacho wizard did. He was not playing toward his win condition. You can't blame me for reading him wrong.
By this point, I was convinced that nacho wizard was scum. Look back up to the post ExlighT made that I quoted here about my connection between him and me. If nacho wizard was scum, it's a nice little piece of trying to tie us together. That was the major source of my suspicion on ExlighT.
I just wanted to make sure I knew what tordeck was referring to. Fishing normally refers to looking for players' role information. What I did was none of that. It was meta behavior analysis to be sure, but random voting is just small-scale behavior analysis.
No, not mod-gaming. Go look at the the hosting thread. There are restrictions on what you can do in a given game. Basic games are just that, basic. It is academic.
Actually, no it's not. It's a player going "woe is me" and refusing to play. Again, if you a town power role, this is not how you play.
I now had information I did not have the day before. Namely, that NW was indeed town.
I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that I'm using newb play as both evidence for and evidence against different players?
Of course you're tied. You're as closely tied as two players can get in this game. You have the same role. I was just asking for vote reasoning.
Why?
What about it seemed bothered/jumpy?
I never said in "this" game. I was speaking of games in general.
Show me.
BS is using the "he's trying too hard to be town so he must be scum" argument.
It's not that you barn, it's how you barn. Again, explained already.
Nope, it was a joke. As in "OMG, you suspect me? VOTEVOTEVOTE". Just said in a different way. Nothing more. Nothing less.
tl;dr: You don't like the idea of just seeing the flavor the mod prepared earlier, that she said she has prepared. That is just sitting there for us to find out. I've already said I believe tordeck's claim. I just want to make sure. Again, what is the harm in that?
Which ones?
That's a scummy answer if ever I've seen one. So you asked the questions with the intentions of digging into people's minds to get information.
No, but you started the wagon that lead to the lynching of a townie.
On the whole subject of lynching Mander's, I think there's no point to it actually. TACKY brings up a good point and the responses that atlseal made to them makes me suspicious. Unvote.
Vote: atlseal
Quotes in blog.
TACKY, in order to make it easier for other players to read, I'd like us to boil down your argument against me to its base components. If I'm incorrect about your arguments or missing some, please correct me (again, I'm trying to boil down your argument to its base components):
1) I didn't participate in the random voting phase which allowed a flimsy case on nacho wizard to be formed
2) I was the main proponent of NW's lynch,while half of the time I did not have my vote on him
3) Being hypocritical about the barning argument
4) Using WIFOM argument to try and show NW was not a power role
5) Blaming TMM for being part of the NW wagon while I, myself, was part of the same wagon while I showed no suspicion of him the first day
6) Trying to get the mod to post the flavor she mentioned that she had
Am I missing anything or did I categorize them wrong?
I actually find this rather insulting, to be perfectly honest. There is no need to do this. One simply has to actually read (*gasp!*) TACKY's post to see the evidence against you. Boiling it down is unnecessary and condescending, not to mention that it takes away some of his argument.
Quotes in blog.
No offense was intended by the post.
Instead of repeating argument/counter-arguments multiple times within the same post and creating longer and longer posts, I tried to capture the heart of all his arguments. There's arguments, and then there's supporting evidence. This is just an attempt to separate the two.
So you want people to see the arguments without seeing the corresponding evidence?
Quotes in blog.
The evidence is up above for all to see. In fact, I responded to all of it. This is just an attempt to keep his and my argument from growing larger and larger and to make the argument clear and concise and to remove the clutter.
Everyone else town read.
vote atlaseal
I want you to answer one question.
What are your 3 suspects?
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Sure thing, but I'll do you one better:
Top Town: Guardman, tordeck
Top Scum: TACKY, TMM, Chubbz|SP|vezo
I have more of a gut read on guardman.
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Quotes in blog.
TMM is on the right track here, although it's not insulting. It's just scummy. This is a common scum tactic used in hopes of distacting people away from the case: ie, they make it look smaller than it is. You boil it down for convienence, sure, but the fact that the case was so long, and had so many minor points and scumtells too, means that reading the boiled down version will cause the townies to miss a lot.
As for these points, let me correct you a bit. My numbers correspond to yours.
1. You personally killed the random phase and created a flimsy case. Your words here act like you had no participation.
2. Not really the vote issue so much as your reasoning. The best reasoning you ever gave for his lynch was that first overreaction and a lot of WIFOM. That AND you were jumping on and off like a hyper-gopher.
3. Yeah, this one seems alright.
4. No, just using WIFOM in general. You used it in several places, but most importantly as justification for your vote and for his lynch in general. That's how you won over the town to his lynch, with WIFOM.
5. Again, that's not the whole picture. You deflected onto TMM and Tordeck right after the day started, and you didn't really have a problem with either. At the end of D1, after Tordeck hammered but before the day was over, you had already posted your "Damn, why'd you hammer post". Then, you come in right off the bat D2, posting "Tordeck is scummy cause he hammered WHY'D YOU DO THAT!", acting surprised when you'd already made this post before. You deflect responsibility onto both Tordeck and TMM.
6. No, again you kind of miss this one. It's scummy to try and get her to hand you over role information. What you were asking was for her to post flavor to determine a specific character's presence. That's like straight asking the mod for role information, and it wasn't going to happen. You were playing it like a genius heroic townie, which makes me uneasy as well.
But like I said, it's much better to read the case. I encourage that, and then read atlseals responses, see if you still don't think he's scum.
Can I vote you harder? First, he's posing to the town, as if posting a town list without being asked is going out of his way for us.
Second, look at his scum. He suspects his main attacker, the guy he was calling newb town yesterday, and the three lurkiest players in the game.
Finally, remember he was super attacking Tordeck earlier today. How'd Tordeck suddenly jump to town, eh atlseal?
Ok, I see atlseal, he's got a case on him. But me and blue come out of, well, the blue. Care to explain a little here?
As opposed to throwing almost every post up on the wall and seeing what sticks (another common scum tactic)?
These are to counter your arguments, not to counter your evidence as I did in my post above:
1. Nowhere did I say in my first post that we can't do random voting. I said that I wasn't going to random vote. Other people just happened to chose the same thing. That's not my fault.
2a. WIFOM applies if you're trying to say "scum wouldn't act like this" because it behoves scum not to act like you'd expect. It does not apply in the case of "a town power role wouldn't act like this" because things like what happened yesterday happen when a town player doesn't act like they should.
2b. Going on/off the wagon (only before everyone had checked into the game), while the whole time saying "Count me on this wagon", and my votes reflect that.
3. As explained in the counter evidence post, the major difference is whether or not your attribute your thoughts to the original poster.
4. See point 2a above
5. Wow. Have I ever seen a more bald-faced lie? You're trying to put words in my mouth. Everyone, just go back and read the end of Day 1, beginning of Day 2. Nowhere did I act like that. The closest I get is:
6. Except that she already said she had prepared a bit of flavor text if the town jokingly decided to try and lynch her. I just wanted to see what that flavor text was to make sure about tordeck.
So? Did I say it was a great challenge? No. Vezok just asked for a scum list, so I gave him both of my lists.
I've suspected ExlighT18 since yesterday with his baseless votes, jumping on and off wagons. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the day, but your case used to justify a vote with the whole throw everything up and see what sticks attitude has that desire diminished.
I already explained about TMM. Alignment reveals of those that died changed my outlook on some of the players in this game.
You can't get any read on lurkers because they lurk. We should not allow them free passes just because they have so few posts.
It's almost as if you haven't been reading my posts. I already said I believe his claim.
I like my vote. People should vote atlaseal
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You don't? The flavor fits.
Bam. Just caught scum. Vote: Vezokpiraka
Interesting. And why do atlseal and myself make it on both of your lists?
Powerrox why do you suspect TACKY?
TMM why do you suspect Powerrox?
Right now my scum list includes Tordeck. I can't game the mod for flavor of his claim. Even though it's a "valid claim" and as yet it's uncountered, it doesn't mean that he's town Lorne.
While I don't have a read on the lurkers I'm upset they're not posting more. Chubbz and SP and Vezok all fall into this category.
My second top scum pick is Powerrox.
What games are you talking about? Can you link to them?
but you admit you were fishing. My problem is with how you are defining fishing. It's convenient that your definition makes your kind of fishing ok while other people are scum for it.
I don't understand this sentiment. Fishing means trying to out a power role. The scum already know who's town or not the don't need any more information except the power roles. How is what atlseal asked geared toward outing a power role? I need you to explain your logic and I'm tired of asking you this question.
This is not a defense. The game we're playing is supposed to be fun but what you did was inherently selfish. It ended the day which allowed for no more analysis and got rid of a troll who was annoying you. The hammer was bad even if he had turned up scum.
atlseal: Will respond to your question in a little bit.
The problem I have atlseal is you cleverly unvoted tordeck to vote mandershex but when you saw that it wasn't going to work you didn't revote tordeck? Why is that?
I didn't understand why you said you believed a vanilla claim.
Way to go. Your deflecting onto me.
@blue: I'm here and I won't have any more V/LAs this summer.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I didn't, I only picked out the scummy ones, which happens to be a large majority. But rest assured, I didn't just go through and grab all your posts for no reason. You can double check that.
1. You didn't just say you weren't random voting, you said you were killing it right off the bat. I don't know if those are your exact words, but that was the exact intention.
2a. No, you're wrong. WIFOM is there whenever you say wouldn't or shouldn't or something like that. Not everybody plays the same. Not everyone plays PR's the same. And who's to say what he should have acted like? What you are arguing against him is WIFOM, and saying it's not is a blatent lie.
2b. You can say count me on this wagon all day long, but in the end the only thing that actually counts you on that wagon is a vote.
3. I'm going to have to go through the counterevidence. I'm not planning on responding to the mass of it anymore, I've been hella busy, but I don't understand the point you're making here. I'll have to read some.
4. See my response.
5. Yeah, my bad, I kept thinking your FoS on Chubbz at the beginning was on Tordeck. But you do still cast some suspicion onto Tordeck by agreeing with blue, when on the last post of D1 you just seemed disappointed
6. But what you're asking for isn't ever going to happen. If you did lynch her, and her origional flavor was going to probably hand a player over on a silver platter, she would probably either a. just not do anything and say get back to the game or b. change her flavor. Trying to trick the mod into handing you a role on a silver platter is just ridiculous. And at best, it's a huge distraction from scumhuntting.
No, but your "I'll do you one better" comment feels like you are trying to do favors for somebody. It seems fake.
Wow, way to misrepresent me. First, I should think that the extent of my case isn't just justification for my vote, it's damned specific in it's reasoning. Second, I'm definitly not throwing everything up and seeing what sticks, as I've left out quite a few posts of yours that were neutral/not scummy. Third, if this were the case, you would think that quite a few things wouldn't stick, but as it seems, the case is fairly solid and sticks to you like glue, so wouldn't that mean that it's not just me throwing things in the air and more likely that you really are scum? But that part is for the people.
Then explain that to the town when you cast suspicion on people. You may have changed your read on him, but you didn't announce that when you spoke up about him, making the point still hella suspicious.
Then tell them not to lurk, but it's a common scumtell to put lurkers in their scumlists and votes because they are easy targets that often lead to mislynches. In fact, it's been argued in several other games that townies lurk far more often than scum, meaning there are several reasons why your suspicion of the lurkers even worse.
Dammit, missed that. I've been busy, it's freaking 4th of july and 2 straight days at the LCS (Local Card Shop) has murder my time in cold blood. I'll go catch up now.
it was just a dumb post man, easy now
ok, blue, tell me this; you're questioning tordeck about the hammer then vote TMM? why?
what? why do you think that?
If you're town, you shouldn't (regardless of playstyle, attitude, etc) willingly kill other town. especially PR's
i can believe the claim as a viable character, but was saying vanilla, and no in game abilities really needed?
though he could be lying, since vanilla is the easiest to claim in basics
gaming the Mod. the first post;
how can you be sure? every lynch i've seen ended the day, why should mod lynch be different?
QFT
after Blue made such a good case about Tordeck to convince you to vote for him, you back off from a vanilla claim? you must not have been to dead set on him to back-off so easily...
so wouldn't it be more accurate to put lurkers into the null/nuetral spot, rather than assuming they're scum because of said lurking?
your justification for voting Atlseal is that tordeck (in your opinion, and via his vanilla claim) is town? i hope i'm wrong on that
while your deflection point might hold, not everything is deflection just because he has points against you
QFT
TL;DR: FOS: Atlseal.
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Not Making sigs atm
I am not voting tordek because I believe he's town.
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lawl. OMGUS?
Quotes in blog.
LAWL, read.
atlseal is on my list for reasons I summarized on the last page, and his ridiculous OMGUS adds to it. You are on my list because I'm leaning scum on you, and that's it for my ideas of scum. I'm not positive on you but you appear to be asking the questions and fishing for a little bit of info. It's not enough to warrant a lynch or FoS, just a hunch I have. For all I know I could be wrong.
On Powerrox: He's kind of a lurker and the posts he has make me think scum, but now that I go back and review his posts they just appear to be nooby to me.
As for Tordeck, Manders named the most recent vote count "Lorne is in this game. Carry On" or something to that effect, so I believe Tordeck.
My new and improved list after reviewing posts. It's also got what I'm leaning. Sorry for the confusion blue, I wrote that kind of fast.
Town:
Guardman
vezokpiraka
Chubbz (?)
tordeck
Unsure:
Silent Prophet (not a lot of posts)
blue (leaning scum?)
Powerrox (leaning scum?)
TACKY (slight chance of scum)
Scum:
atlseal
There we go. I'm not really sure of a lot of people, but I'm confident that Guardman, Vezok, Tordeck, and maybe Chubbz are town.
Quotes in blog.
SP is in the sumer camp where he doesn't have internet access. I think he should be replaced.
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There seems to be some reason players don't like to read my posts this game. It is not OMGUS just because you vote someone that is voting for you. It is only OMGUS when you do that with no other valid reason for voting. However, I do as quoted in the post that I voted for him: he contradicts himself plain as day within hours.
So, you were stopping the random dead and you admit you were throwing the town off. Still super scummy.
Uh, yeah, I can blame you. Especially since you went from voting him to swearing he can't be anything other than scum within two posts, both of which are in the first page or two in the game.
Oh, and NW definetly fell into that first pool there, because, you know, HE WAS TOWN. And a PR to boot, a bodyguard, so probably the closest thing we had to a doc.
Care to explain why powerrox is solidly town and not muffin? Also, you are saying that you knew the wagon was terrible and accelerated fast and probably had scum on it, but you went through and lynch the townie anyway? What about that screams townie? Oh, that's right, nothing.
So you are saying that TMM just isn't giving credit? And that makes him scum how, especially considering his newb card? Attacking him for it is a weak point, one of the weakest I've seen.
1. Great, you changed your mind. Now justify it. That's what I'm having a problem with. You keep changing reads on players without explaining why until much much later, if at all.
2. Yes, because it doesn't matter. A lynch before they show up would be bad, but if the case is legit, a claim before everyone shows up shouldn't be a problem. You are making up a reason to jump on and off the wagon, and it's just plain scummy.
The previous attempt to lynch the mod was just a fun aspect of the game since manders had a plan for it. It wasn't a problem when it was innocent fun. When you started doing it to game the mod, it becomes a problem. I Really don't see a problem with distraction onto a silly aspect of the game very shortly to have a little fun and then get back to the game.
Also, the only people who crave to get past the meaningless are scum. You're eagerness to get on with it makes you scummy as hell.
Honestly, rereading that scenario, I don't know what either of your two points have to do with his post. This point is confusing though, there are too many references, it just keeps going back and back and then I get lost.
See, the problem is that there have been several other occasions where letting the random phase occur has caught scum very well. Not only that, but the insight gained is really only for your use, and likeyou admitted earlier, you were almost purposefully throwing the town off. Let's say a townie likes playing scum more, you could have turned that around on him. It's much more scummy than townie to do what you did and it certinely comes from a scum mindset.
Also, show me other games where this was used, preferably to successfully catch scum. Cause I don't buy it.
Because it gives you an out. You could unvote saying you meant to be on the wagon, have a lynch occur without you and use that as an excuse later on. A committed townie would keep his vote on, especially if he was convinced the player was scum. You seemed pretty convinced NW was scum, so the unvotes should have never happened if you were a convinced townie. Unvotes happen because you are a worried scum, worried about what happens to you when you get your mislynch.
First, bull☺☺☺☺. Second, you are arguing semantics. Throwing support behind his wagon means you support his lynch.
Yeah, but the way you responded and the quickness at which you did it makes me think you are worried about yourself. People start expressing suspicion of those on the wagon and you instantly pop up with a "who and why!" post, kind of defensively. That's the analysis I got from your post.
Yes, but those aren't rules as much as they are guidelines. If your making the "did you take these things into consideration" point, then did you factor in the newbieness, the obvfrustration and the fact that not everyone plays the same town game? If you did, you would have realized it was a mislynch and unvoted.
However, seeing as how you do know quite a bit about the game, my guess is that you did see those things and just didn't care, because you're scum wanting a mislynch.
The point is that tying players together is a great way to lead to a mislynch. You shouldn't be making the assumption that one scum will tie to both his buddies. In fact, many times town will tie to scum accidentally without knowing, making this kind of suspicion dangerous to the town. It's also a tool for scum, and you taking advantage of it is scummy.
Like I said, you were totally meta-fishing. Also, as I've said before, the random stage has caught scum more times than not. It's a reliable info-tank for later in the game, if it doesn't catch scum right off the bat. You wanting to end it so fast makes more and more sense with you being scum.
Well, the mod of a specific game can request approval of something off the wall, so don't pretend you know how all these games work. Mod-gaming.
I've personally seen this exact kind of play come from basics several times, so yeah, when I see that, I unvote, let the guy compose himself/replace out if needed and analyze the situation before I move forward. Scum would take advantage of such an attitude as an excuse to vote.
What? This BY FAR doesn't refute my point, which was that you were totally deflecting! I have the same information too, and you are the one who pushed the hardest for his death with the worst reasoning. And you go and blame the whole situation on TMM.
Plus, what is different about TMM than the others? Why blame TMM? You don't give reasoning, you just call him scummy and brush the blame off onto him.
I'm saying that you have been calling people newb town, like TMM, and then turning around and calling them scum for small points with weak reasoning.
This is now a mute point and it was just a minor annoyance of mine, but it should be known that the only things me and Exlight have in common is the role. To equate me and him any further would be wrong, and it's not for personal reasons, it's just because we are two completly different playstyles.
It's bad because you are trying to carry over the previous player's scumminess onto me by saying we are doing the same basic thing, when really it's not true. My reasoning was just slightly delay, not non-existant.
You hada very immidiate reaction, you responded with a little confusion and you gave a nice and very fake "bring it" response in my opinion, with the saturday comment. You definetly seemed like my vote had gotten far deeper under your skin than you were letting on.
Ok then.
First, that's not how this works. You are supposed to show me that I'm wrong, not the other way around.
Second, I already have shown you. I've repeatedly said that your NW vote was almost completly unjustified, and your extreme confidance only shortly after your vote is also completly unjustified if you are town. It's totally justified if you are scum on your way to a mislynch, which is yet another reason that I'm pretty sure you are scum.
How is this BS? Only Scum have to try to be town, so trying to say things that seem like a boasting town make you more scum. So, in effect, trying to be town makes you scum. Also, you don't actually refute my point here, you just make an attack onto me, which is also scummy.
At the time, you didn't explain that. You said simply that barning made him scum. This is the first I've heard of this and it sounds like backtracking.
Only scum joke. Stop it. I may seem a little harsh here, but joking around has been used by scum, and used to catch scum very many times. Sarcasm is the only acceptable form of humor.
Because this is bs. I've explained it several times, so I won't do it again, but seriously, bs.
There you go, for anybody interested. This is the part that gets a little confusing to read, the responses to responses, but I encourage it. Sorry, it is long. As hell.
Sarcasm noted. Could you answer my question?
TMM Can you answer my question?
Jake I'd rather not say why I think I'm going to die tonight but I'm putting it out there that it is likely. I'm still grappling with whether or not I should say something in the off chance that what I'm thinking is incorrect. I want to let the day develop more before I say anything.
While in general I think this post makes you seem more town I don't like the fact that SP is unsure but chubbz is town? Chubbz has posted like three times. How are you so sure about Chubbz's alignment?
This is why I feel you're scummier than TMM. You both seem newbish but this seems newb scum because you didn't actually give any reasoning behind your reads here. What are some factors you're using? Why are you calling TACKY out but not the others? If they're all suspicious then list them. Top three means nothing without reasoning behind it. You need to support your argument here.
That is all.
I'm not so sure. He's at least posted more, and from what he's posted, I'm picking up a sort town vibe. SP's posts have all been ambiguous and non-telling. The question mark next to his name displays that I'm still not positive, though I have a stronger feeling about him being town than the other unsures.
Did I answer your question? Because you asked me to, and I thought I had.
Quotes in blog.
atlseal (3) : TACKY, The_Muffin_Man, vezokpiraka
tordeck (3) : Guardman, blue, Powerrox93
vezokpiraka (1) : atlseal
Not Voting: SGT_Chubbz, Silent Prophet, tordeck
With 10 alive, it is 6 to lynch.
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I think I'll just let you get the last word on our argument. You are right that it's just becoming too confusing to have responses to responses. I feel I've stated my case. There's no need to make it any more confusing.
Everyone has our opinions on the whole thing with pretty much every aspect.
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Silent Prophet had internet issues, but I believe those have been corrected. Currently he is enjoying the holiday. He posted on Friday (I believe) or Saturday, so he's good through today.
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Saw I missed this, sorry.
This will seem contradictory later but I wanted to hear what Tordeck had to say about his bad hammer. While TMM was already suspicious to me because of the way he followed the wagon yesterday with votes/unvotes for very little reason. One post, in fact, was JUST a vote. No other content in it and no validation behind it. I also had a sinking suspicion about something else but I'm questioning that now so I will not reveal it.
unvote
vote Powerrox
Powerrox your votes yesterday were as bad as exlights and the muffin man. I've re-read all three of you and basically confirmed that I think exlight was town. I'm still concerned about the muffin man but this unvote is just as bad as your votes all day yesterday.
You were voting for tordeck. The wagon stalled because Tacky started debating with atlseal. You unvote. Why did you unvote BEFORE you think about whether you made the right choice in voting in the first place? You should have reasoning behind each vote and unvote and you've never had it anywhere. I know you're newb and sometimes newbs flail votes around but this is awful. Expect a better breakdown of your posts soon.
I may have missed where you detailed this, but confirmed it for you?
An your not sure about everyone else except blue?
OMGUS much?
unvote
Vote PowerRox
Had a scum read on you before but now it's too serious.
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So this seems scummy as it's a rehashing barn of what someone else already said with a glaringly silly implication on the way he spelled wizard. The silliness I have chalked up to being Exlight's style so from here on I have to try to look past it to see if the content he's providing is pro town or pro scum.
When he's being serious he's being helpful. The disparity between his silly posts and his serious posts tell me at some times he's "obviously playing the game" but it's still not indicative of whether or not he's scum.
From this I take it to mean that Exlight may be concerned with his image by stating "This might hurt me." He follows it up with scum seems to be fun. I can't tell if he means "being able to play as scum right now is fun" or "I'm town but scum seems like it'd be fun" It's a null tell for me.
Not sure what the scumwagon unvote means but at this time the only person who has claimed a role is Nacho and he claimed angel. I don't see this as a scum tell even though he seemingly wants to go into a random phase that didn't exist.
more serious post even though it's also silly. Not a scum tell. I need clarification why the scum "like the random vote stage" more than town? And I have to remember that it wasn't exlight who ended the RVS and I can't speak for him as to whether he was looking forward to the RVS and was disappointed that it got skipped.
Again not a scumtell.
I can confirm that this is his style of posting outside of the game but again it's neither a defense nor a scumtell for me. So far you can see all I'm getting is one minor scum tell and several neutral reads with one minor town tell.
Seems newbish and yes it does seem like a scum trying to rush a vote on town.
I went back and reread what atlseal had been doing. I think it's possible that he was unvoting and voting all the time because he wanted to give Nacho a chance to defend himself. But what Exlight is saying was also possible at the time. And it seemed to come from a town mindset.
This is in response to atlseals comment that Exlight would know why atlseal was voting/unvoting if he had read what atlseal said. But just because a player says they're doing it for one reason doesn't mean they're being honest. So even if Exlight had read there's no real reason to believe ATlseal was telling the truth. I get town out of this post even though there's sarcasm involved.
OMGUS vote but it felt like it was a joke. Mostly a gut read here.
Concerned with the words "exactly as planned" but I feel like it was a town gambit after reading this post.
This list doesn't express all the feelings he has toward the group but what strikes me as town is he's at least consistent when he calls nacho and atlseal scum and says chubbz and ai need to post more before he'll be able to read them. Here he is portraying a town mindset.
Nothing to note here.
Jumping back to the original wagon
I took this to mean that Exlight was suspicious of Atlseal for "setting up the next day's lynch" I don't know what the rest of that means.
neutral read on the first two but I don't like C at all.
Doesn't really make any sense to say this as either town or scum so it's a null tell for me.
And I feel like it was genuine.
This also feels pro town.
Nothing to note here
tl;dr: I had to get over the fact that exlight was posting in a silly nature. People are who they are in and out of this game so when I balanced all the neutral tells and compared the scum tells versus the town tells I basically confirmed to myself that Exlight was indeed town.
I didn't detail it. But there it is now.
The problem with yesterday's lynch is that it had at least three newb votes on it. It's going to be harder to figure out if they were newb scum or newb town but Powerrox's votes were always terrible. So my vote stands on powerrox.
Like I said above it's hard to tell if this is newb town jumping on a wagon because you're easily convinced by the argument or if you're newb scum jumping on a wagon to push it along. So this is a null tell for me. Little supporting evidence and just barning what other people say.
You tell me I complain about you being a newb (which I'm not doing), yet you yourself have used it as an "excuse"
What was the worse way?
Please note that I am not the only one who has recognized your posting habits as indicative as a new player's behavior. This comes into play later.
The situation where the moderator in a basic game would have a role is absurd so the confusion is real.
However, he unvoted nachowizard to vote exlight for the lynch the mod ploy. Then unvoted and voted nacho again. And you'll note:
You never answered this question. Why? What made you change your mind BACK to nachowizard?
This is more thought out than any of your posts in the rest of the game. What you've said here is not indicative that you are scum but how you've said it makes the rest of your posts so confusing.
Forgets the capitalization he needs to do? That's really one of your reasons for voting NachoWizard? Could you point out what you were talking about with regards to nacho's "instinctive play"? This post didn't make any sense and you're barning the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen. To me you're stretching here to make your vote seem more town.
Mostly speculation here but we now know that AI was town. Am I really the only person who sees that Powerrox's posts that pertain to outside the game are a lot more cohesive and constructed and thoughtful than the posts pertaining to inside the game? It's a scummy dichotomy if you ask me
What do you mean by this?
More barning. Minor nitpick here is that you've proclaimed nacho as scum for using bad grammar/miscapitalization but your own grammar isn't perfect either. Am I supposed to suspect you of being scum simply on that fact? No. But the contradiction and double standard is noted.
What do you mean for his own best? You're barning AGAIN and again with no substantial opinion behind it. At this point you've added exactly ZERO to this game except contributing to a mislynch of a town.
More barning.
It's funny. Your experience of mafia was previously described as this is your first game. I reiterate what I said before. This is fearmongering. Here you're trying to imply that being vanilla is inherently bad. You're also implying that anyone who claims vanilla should be lynched because they have scar plans in mind. But here's the problem. We're in a basic and, while we're not guaranteed three power roles, it's a general rule of thumb that there are three roles. One protector, one information gatherer, one other (usually a vigilante). On top of that the scum usually get something to even the odds in their favor and usually this is a roleblocker (which I believe they have).
You're right that a vanilla claim shouldn't automatically make a person believable town but it is certainly not more or less incriminating to their alignment. Maybe you're not reading the thread because this has been discussed already. Either way this is one of the scummiest posts I've seen in this game.
Finally some consistency. This is the second time you've said we shouldn't lynch the mod. At this point it's a null tell because I believe anyone wanting to play this game fairly should know that lynching the mod to garner more information, regardless of who she reveals herself to be, would be cheating and against the premise of the game: it's a basic and the mod should not have a role nor confirm nor deny if characters do or don't exist within the game.
More consistency. Yes you've said that you shouldn't take vanilla claims for granted but you have only said ONCE why you think tordeck should be lynched and then it was only barning. And you had me suspicious here again because you said this was your first game.
Again with no reasoning behind any of it.
Finally the explanation where your mafia experience comes from.
I'm not saying it shouldn't matter so I don't know where you're getting this question. Not sure it was directed at me either.
Yeah. Great. Fine on the edge sure. But where's your "lot of factors" that you've been calculating as you say? You've provided absolutely nothing up to this point and this post is only remotely town. To me it feels like you're throwing darts at a dartboard trying to see what will stick. Your list of scum is rather interesting if you ask me. Especially considering that all three of us are generating discussion and bringing up valid points, defending them, and debating on the proper course of action. What are you doing? I mean besides trying to cast doubt on the three most active posters of late.
I've already questioned this. You unvoted before you even thought about whether it was the right move to make. Scum. Period.
Why does he lean toward town for you? What exactly has he done to make you say this?
I'm going to ask the same question vez did here. Why is vez town when he's had almost no posts this game? Did you think him being on vacation was a town tell O_o?
!!! Are you kidding me with this? First you say he was leaning toward town? When was that exactly? Cuz you JUST said that your top three suspects for scum were TACKY BLUE AND ATLSEAL. Then you say your opinion changed because of his reaction. What reactions and to which posts are you referring? And why did you tell us that you were leaning town on him when the first thing you say about him is that he's scum? And even then why is he in "unsure" land when you said he was among your top scum picks? You're catching yourself up in your own lie here.
What do you mean complains? I need you to define what you're talking about by quoting it or linking to appropriate posts. You're casting accusations and you're not backing them up. AGAIN.
Why?
This makes no sense at all. I'm disappointed with what seems to be your first concrete and unique opinion on a player in this game. So you believe he's making town posts and that makes him scum. Your logic makes no sense to me.
Really cuz you guys vote the exact same way. So you should be leaning scum on your self-read too.
Omgus vote is omgus.
So let's look at this. You think I'm complaining about your little online mafia experience. I don't know what you mean by this. I'm not complaining as I have stated already. And I had no idea you had real life mafia experience until waaaay later when at that point it seemed like a contradiction.
I need you to explain to me what you mean by "I fact that quota is filled for the rest of this game" because I don't get what you're saying even if that first word is supposed to be "in".
2. What? Are you saying that I'm suspicious because I find that you agree with everyone and repeat what they say as if it's your own opinion. Take a step back, wouldn't YOU find it scummy if someone repeated all of your opinions and never backed them up?
3. Yet again I need you to explain this.
tl;dr Powerrox it boils down to this. You've added nothing to this game, voted for terrible reasons, and just repeated back to us everything the people who posted before you said.
Beyond that, your list of who is and isn't scum shows the three most active players as scum while basically gives a free pass to anyone who hasn't posted much at all. The town logic would say maybe one two or all three of the most active posters were town but to label them all scum seems to me that you want at least one of us gone by lynch so that your scumbuddies can kill off the other two over the course of the night.
1) I read your case for your firm belief of TACKY/ExlighT18 as town. There were only a few more posts that you analyzed as town (no overwhelming majority). However, your firm belief of his townness leads me to believe there's one or two posts that really nail it down for you. Could you highlight which those were?
Care to explain that bit?
@Powerrox
I'm also interested in the answer to this.