Ok, fair enough. I know who that is (verily), I just didn't know the finger thing. I thought you were talking about one of those "#1" Fingers and thought Nappa was a reference to a company of some sort.
Quote from manders »
How many games have you played in? Because I've been in several and I've never seen a soft-claim help scum more than town. In fact, I've been in a game where a D1 mass claim helped the town tremendously. (See Joss Whedon mafia for the reference, or just ask Kraj. He was in it, too)
The team it will help the most is the team with the best knowledge of the subject. As it is, I don't like the idea. Due mostly to the fact that I thought this theme was the one where the dude did dirty things to a pie...
How does limiting the scum choices can help us? especially in this game where the flavor is very weird.
In my thinking limiting the scum choices could make their false claims be accurate.
Also I'm not a thing I'm a person.
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The team it will help the most is the team with the best knowledge of the subject. As it is, I don't like the idea. Due mostly to the fact that I thought this theme was the one where the dude did dirty things to a pie...
How does limiting the scum choices can help us? especially in this game where the flavor is very weird.
In my thinking limiting the scum choices could make their false claims be accurate.
I'm not sure how else we can explain except to say that it is a proven fact that soft-claiming locks scum into something that they will have to match in claiming later.
Like, for instance, if a scum were to claim they were a thing, then when full-claiming say they are Don McLean, that would not match and would out them as scum. Granted, it's relatively easy for scum to false-claim the same kind of thing that they soft-claimed, but they may still slip-up somewhere in the game, thus outing themselves, regarding what kind of person (M or F) place (country of location) or thing (animate or inanimate) etc.
Look, if you guys don't want to believe me on the benefits of a soft-claim, then let's wait for the two most experienced players in the game to weigh in (i.e. ImTehFairy and Kraj). Well, VibeBox has played a fair amount, as well, but says he's not very good. Still, bet he has an opinion on this as well.
Also I'm not a thing I'm a person.
Then why did you say this?:
my name is a something from the things you listed.
From what I can remember Soft-Claims were sometimes used to little ill effect. However I must say my initial reaction is to be slightly against it because of the theme. It seems with such a limited number of possible roles to be garnered from just a song it may be awkward.
The negative scenario that immediately played out in my head was that everyone claims "person" or something, except one player, and if that player is not scum they become a pretty easy target for NK since a role with something unique about it would seem likely to have a power or something.
While this is admittedly a corner-case and probably not what would happen, it doesn't seem worth it to open ourselves up to that low percentage negative outcome just for the low percentage positive that one of the scum is awful and plays into a soft-claim lock.
Fake Edit: Ok, I went through the lyric of the song to check how many possible roles it seemed there was. After reading, I think there are probably enough to avoid the scenario I mention.
I'm still not enthused about a soft claim this early, but I admittedly have no better ideas on how to get conversation going. Day 1 was always my least favorite part of the game. : -/
Random thoughts after reading the lyrics:
Man, I hate this song and its America Loving.
Too bad Zin said he wouldn't have a Jester, since this seems the perfect Theme to have one.
If the Beatles are scum I'll be sad. : -(
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of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
scum with obivous scum names will not say their real name.
town pr will be easier to be identified
Scum may not know that their name makes them scummy. Or it won't, but when forced to claim a role it might end up not making sense with the name they claimed. Or they could get sloppy and contradict themselves.
The point being, before we get some claims and deaths (especially scum deaths) we don't really know for sure what will be relevant and useful. Now, considering this is a basic and the flavor is rather abstract, I doubt role names are going to bust the game. But you never know, and on day 1 you kinda need something to kick-start discussion. In other words, Manders' reasons are exactly right.
In my thinking limiting the scum choices could make their false claims be accurate.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that limiting their choices makes them less likely to be caught lying. That's reasonable, but what it also does is make it more difficult for them to successfully lie when they need to. See?
@mh : Poor choice of words. I reread my character and I'm what can be called as people.
Quick pointer: if you're unsure about participating in a mass claim, participating in the mass claim is not the best way to express that point of view.
********
About the specific soft claim Manders proposed, I'm fine with it. It doesn't seem likely to be particularly harmful, and even if the information isn't useful the discussion will be. However, I've already found something relevant to discuss without doing the claim:
Early claims usually help the scum even soft. I don`t see how it could be beneficial to the town. FoS: MandersHex
Unvote
I don't like this at all. Even if you've got a good reason for thinking soft claims help the scum, I don't like this weak FoS on Manders and unvote. The game is just getting out of random, there's no reason to be cautious with your vote and this strikes me as being overly tentative.
Unvote, Vote: Talore
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About the mass claim.
At first i didn't really understood mh claim and mh thought i claimed i am a "thing".
It thought i should clarify this and after reading mh responses it convinced me that it could help us so i thought it didn't matter anyway.
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I don't like this at all. Even if you've got a good reason for thinking soft claims help the scum, I don't like this weak FoS on Manders and unvote. The game is just getting out of random, there's no reason to be cautious with your vote and this strikes me as being overly tentative.
Unvote, Vote: Talore
Wait what? I'm pretty sure four other people have unvoted without voting someone else, too. Unless I'm missing something, of course. The other game I've played in didn't do claiming, and the only people who did claim were at L-2, so I'm under the impression one should wait until that point to claim stuff; (or at least until later in the game, from what I see of other mafia games I'm reading)
It means nothing in terms of mechanics, is what he (and I) meant. I thought it was suspicious from what I understood about claims, to I pointed that out. I didn't vote because I may have been (and partially have?) been proven wrong about the soft claim.
From what I can remember Soft-Claims were sometimes used to little ill effect. However I must say my initial reaction is to be slightly against it because of the theme. It seems with such a limited number of possible roles to be garnered from just a song it may be awkward.
The negative scenario that immediately played out in my head was that everyone claims "person" or something, except one player, and if that player is not scum they become a pretty easy target for NK since a role with something unique about it would seem likely to have a power or something.
While this is admittedly a corner-case and probably not what would happen, it doesn't seem worth it to open ourselves up to that low percentage negative outcome just for the low percentage positive that one of the scum is awful and plays into a soft-claim lock.
Fake Edit: Ok, I went through the lyric of the song to check how many possible roles it seemed there was. After reading, I think there are probably enough to avoid the scenario I mention.
I'm still not enthused about a soft claim this early, but I admittedly have no better ideas on how to get conversation going. Day 1 was always my least favorite part of the game. : -/
Random thoughts after reading the lyrics:
Man, I hate this song and its America Loving.
Too bad Zin said he wouldn't have a Jester, since this seems the perfect Theme to have one.
If the Beatles are scum I'll be sad. : -(
This sounds like a contradiction to me. If you've dismissed the reason you're against a soft-claim, why are you still "not enthused about [it]"?
Quote from talore »
Wait what? I'm pretty sure four other people have unvoted without voting someone else, too. Unless I'm missing something, of course. The other game I've played in didn't do claiming, and the only people who did claim were at L-2, so I'm under the impression one should wait until that point to claim stuff; (or at least until later in the game, from what I see of other mafia games I'm reading)
What I'd like to know is if you have a good enough reason to believe a soft-claim hurts the town (and thus implying MH is scum), why did you not fully vote for MH? How can you reason that an early soft claim is necessarily bad and scummy on the basis of one game of mafia (and if you've been reading other games, as I have, you'd see that MH seems to fairly often propose a soft-claim early)? And though I'm new to this it seems that an early claim of some sort would not really help scum here.
I think also that although I'm supportive of a soft-claim to generate discussion, I feel that it would not be great in its current form. There are far fewer Locations than Things/People, so anyone claiming Place would probably be a lot easier to identify.
Unless I'm missing something, of course. The other game I've played in didn't do claiming, and the only people who did claim were at L-2, so I'm under the impression one should wait until that point to claim stuff
OK, I'll buy that. However, why did you think Manders is suspicious if you've never encountered the type of claim she proposed, and you were aware you may be wrong? Why not ask for clarification?
I'll let you respond to others before piling my additional comments on.
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This sounds like a contradiction to me. If you've dismissed the reason you're against a soft-claim, why are you still "not enthused about [it]"?
I'm not enthused because as I said before I think it is a pretty low percentage play to actually catch scum. I'm not opposed to doing it if everyone decides that's what they want, but since it was only suggested to get discussion going, and we now seem to have a real discussion going on, I don't think it's necessary for now.
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From what I can remember Soft-Claims were sometimes used to little ill effect. However I must say my initial reaction is to be slightly against it because of the theme. It seems with such a limited number of possible roles to be garnered from just a song it may be awkward.
Yeah, but I did my research before the game started and saw that there are plenty of possible roles in the lyrics of the game.
The negative scenario that immediately played out in my head was that everyone claims "person" or something, except one player, and if that player is not scum they become a pretty easy target for NK since a role with something unique about it would seem likely to have a power or something.
While this is admittedly a corner-case and probably not what would happen, it doesn't seem worth it to open ourselves up to that low percentage negative outcome just for the low percentage positive that one of the scum is awful and plays into a soft-claim lock.
This is, of course, the one drawback to a soft-claim, that it may single out a townie, making them seem scum for not fitting the theme.
Of course, this is also gaming the mod, which is generally frowned upon.
FYI: ANYONE THAT NEEDS AN EXPLANATION OF A MAFIA TERM (OR ANYTHING REALLY) DON'T HESITATE TO ASK. After all, we've all asked them at least once in our lifetime.
Fake Edit: Ok, I went through the lyric of the song to check how many possible roles it seemed there was. After reading, I think there are probably enough to avoid the scenario I mention.
I'm still not enthused about a soft claim this early, but I admittedly have no better ideas on how to get conversation going. Day 1 was always my least favorite part of the game. : -/
This is actually why I usually end up proposing a soft-claim because RVS bores me. I contribute, but it's still boring.
Random thoughts after reading the lyrics:
Man, I hate this song and its America Loving.
Too bad Zin said he wouldn't have a Jester, since this seems the perfect Theme to have one.
If the Beatles are scum I'll be sad. : -(
Umm, aren't you from America? Don't you love it?
Jester. Ha. I've been told by tooo many people it's a dick move, lol.
Agreed on that.
I'm extremely disappointed no one remarked on my pun. It was quality.
Sweetheart, you know if I had gotten it, I would have.
Upon re-reading, I'm not even positive which statement was the pun, unless you mean "Grievous mistake" punning Star Wars.
About the specific soft claim Manders proposed, I'm fine with it. It doesn't seem likely to be particularly harmful, and even if the information isn't useful the discussion will be. However, I've already found something relevant to discuss without doing the claim:
I don't like this at all. Even if you've got a good reason for thinking soft claims help the scum, I don't like this weak FoS on Manders and unvote. The game is just getting out of random, there's no reason to be cautious with your vote and this strikes me as being overly tentative.
Unvote, Vote: Talore
A good find indeed, my dear Kraj. Let's see how he responds, shall we?
Wait what? I'm pretty sure four other people have unvoted without voting someone else, too. Unless I'm missing something, of course. The other game I've played in didn't do claiming, and the only people who did claim were at L-2, so I'm under the impression one should wait until that point to claim stuff; (or at least until later in the game, from what I see of other mafia games I'm reading)
Ineptness strikes me again =P
It's fishy to me that you would Fos me without understanding what I was saying, as you admit you didn't. You didn't understand the benefit of a soft-claim, so you decide to vote me for it? What else have I done to deserve that FoS?
lrd told me that FoS doesn't really mean anything, as it isn't an actual vote. Why so jumpy?
2 things:
1) Who are you accusing of being jumpy?
2) Seeing as how you reacted so strongly to one person seriously voting for you, this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, whoever it's directed at.
It means nothing in terms of mechanics, is what he (and I) meant. I thought it was suspicious from what I understood about claims, to I pointed that out. I didn't vote because I may have been (and partially have?) been proven wrong about the soft claim.
It's still suspicious that you FoS'd at all. See vezokpiraka above. He was leery. He didn't understand the benefit. Did he show suspicion on me for it? No.
I think also that although I'm supportive of a soft-claim to generate discussion, I feel that it would not be great in its current form. There are far fewer Locations than Things/People, so anyone claiming Place would probably be a lot easier to identify.
Yeah, again, this would be gaming the mod.
Edit: VibeBox is absolutely correct now. The soft-claim proposal can be shelved for now, since there is actual discussion. That, ladies (oh, wait, I'm the only lady, lol) gentlemen, is the purpose for proposing a soft-claim.
I want to ask talore:
How many games of mafia did you play?
He could have thought that fosing is just saying that suspicions and wanted to share his suspicion.
Also he did a lot of things that i did in my first game. Where i was scum
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This is, of course, the one drawback to a soft-claim, that it may single out a townie, making them seem scum for not fitting the theme.
Of course, this is also gaming the mod, which is generally frowned upon.
By "gaming the mod" do you mean acting on information the Mod may have unintentionally given due to game setup?
Or is it more like "making assumptions about Mod behavior based on roles"?
If the former, then I disagree with the stigma, as it is the Mod's job not to give things away accidentally, and create game balance. It is not the players' job to feign ignorance for the sake of the game.
Umm, aren't you from America? Don't you love it?
Jester. Ha. I've been told by tooo many people it's a dick move, lol.
I am, and I do not. I guess I better "leave it".
I don't see why it's a dick move. Sure it wastes the Town's efforts, and even a lynch, but you could compensate by giving the Town a little extra. A one shot Vig or something.
unless you mean "Grievous mistake" punning Star Wars.
That's what he meant. He almost got my random vote for it too.
Quote from Vez »
He could have thought that fosing is just saying that suspicions and wanted to share his suspicion.
Kraj can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the concern is that the FoS was given in such a way that can sometimes be read as scummy because it looks like Scum trying to cast suspicion and get someone else to vote for that person so that later if the FoS-target is lynched they can claim "Well, it wasn't me that started the wagon, it was person X".
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By "gaming the mod" do you mean acting on information the Mod may have unintentionally given due to game setup?
Or is it more like "making assumptions about Mod behavior based on roles"?
If the former, then I disagree with the stigma, as it is the Mod's job not to give things away accidentally, and create game balance. It is not the players' job to feign ignorance for the sake of the game.
I meant the latter.
I am, and I do not. I guess I better "leave it".
Haha, fair enough.
I don't see why it's a dick move. Sure it wastes the Town's efforts, and even a lynch, but you could compensate by giving the Town a little extra. A one shot Vig or something.
Honestly, I don't either. I want to make a game including a jester. That's just what I've been told everytime I've mentioned to someone I wanted to use one.
That's what he meant. He almost got my random vote for it too.
The point is not unvoting without voting someone else, the point is not voting someone whom you gave a reason for voting.
OK, I'll buy that. However, why did you think Manders is suspicious if you've never encountered the type of claim she proposed, and you were aware you may be wrong? Why not ask for clarification?
I'll let you respond to others before piling my additional comments on.
In my head I didn't fully seperate soft claim and claim; I kinda lumped them together as the same thing for my reasoning, which I see now was an innacurate thing to do. I'm trying to learn by watching others actions and not ask too many questions (I've seen others be hammered for 'playing the noob card')
It's fishy to me that you would Fos me without understanding what I was saying, as you admit you didn't. You didn't understand the benefit of a soft-claim, so you decide to vote me for it? What else have I done to deserve that FoS?
2 things:
1) Who are you accusing of being jumpy?
2) Seeing as how you reacted so strongly to one person seriously voting for you, this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, whoever it's directed at.
It's still suspicious that you FoS'd at all. See vezokpiraka above. He was leery. He didn't understand the benefit. Did he show suspicion on me for it? No.
Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with a Vote: Talore
Once again* I lumped all claims together in my head. Yeah, I should of asked but I thought I understood enough. (*I'm typing backwards... =P)
I implied that Kraj was being jumpy with a vote due to my ignorance. I didn't think I was being jumpy. Lurking is a scum tactic, so I wanted to explain my side. =\ I didn't think an FoS was so serious an implication!
I want to ask talore:
How many games of mafia did you play?
He could have thought that fosing is just saying that suspicions and wanted to share his suspicion.
Also he did a lot of things that i did in my first game. Where i was scum
I'm in 2 games, this one and Basic #20, so I've never completed one.
That's what I meant by FoSing; I was kind of suspicious, but didn't want to do something mechanically seroius like a vote incase someone proves me wrong. I was just being honest with my thoughts, that's what town is supposed to do, right? Be honest?
If there's so much pressure, I'll claim or whatever. =/
In hindsight, FoS should have been that other long abbreviation (I've got my eye on you?) =(
He could have thought that fosing is just saying that suspicions and wanted to share his suspicion.
Well indeed that's exactly what it's for. Telling the difference between who is making honest but clumsy observations and who is deliberately trying to mislead the town is the trick, isn't it?
Kraj can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the concern is that the FoS was given in such a way that can sometimes be read as scummy because it looks like Scum trying to cast suspicion and get someone else to vote for that person so that later if the FoS-target is lynched they can claim "Well, it wasn't me that started the wagon, it was person X".
That is the gist of it, yes. Scum generally want to support aggression on a townie without being seen as an aggressor (a good exception to this is when a townie makes a genuine mistake or scumtell that a scum can justifiably be aggressive about).
And a jester isn't a dick role because it hurts the town, it's a dick role because it ruins the point of the game. The fun of the game comes from mafias trying to mislead towns into lynching the wrong people and towns trying to determine who is trying to mislead them. Jesters ruin that dynamic by intentionally getting the town to lynch them. It just ruins the fun. Imagine a multiplayer game of Magic where one player in the group did nothing but play counterspells, discard, land destruction, and removal, and basically said "I have no way to win so I'm just going to mess you all up until you kill me". Fun? No.
In my head I didn't fully seperate soft claim and claim; I kinda lumped them together as the same thing for my reasoning, which I see now was an innacurate thing to do. I'm trying to learn by watching others actions and not ask too many questions (I've seen others be hammered for 'playing the noob card')
I implied that Kraj was being jumpy with a vote due to my ignorance. I didn't think I was being jumpy.
Confusing choice of words; usually jumpy refers to being overly defensive about something. You meant I was being overly aggressive. Again, I'll buy that.
fos ipot
he unvoted and revoted the most here.
i did the same thing in basic 19 where i was scum.
also im bored of this random phase
also unvote i dont want to get anyone in trouble
FOSing me for random voting during random voting stage? Weird.
Quote from kraj »
And a jester isn't a dick role because it hurts the town, it's a dick role because it ruins the point of the game. The fun of the game comes from mafias trying to mislead towns into lynching the wrong people and towns trying to determine who is trying to mislead them. Jesters ruin that dynamic by intentionally getting the town to lynch them.
I don't know if you've ever had someone do it here, but I have played a couple games where there was a member of the mafia who was a jester. He counted for their numbers but could not win with them if he survived. It was.. Interesting.
Man this game started moving fast all of the sudden
Anyways, a know this is a bit late, but I love how nobody Voted or FoSd Manders in that lolzy Texas = Cult thing, despite the fact that it says so right in each post that she's in Texas. /random
So as for the soft-claim, I don't really care either way. I'm not worried about it hurting us, and I'm not worried about it helping scum too much. As for whoever had the argument that it helps people who know the flavor more, http://tinyurl.com/27ldevo.
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sorry for not posting, timezones mean i cant post til about this hour. unvote
Quote from vezokpiraka »
he unvoted and revoted the most here.
i did the same thing in basic 19 where i was scum.
also im bored of this random phase
also unvote i dont want to get anyone in trouble
Quote from ipot »
FOSing me for random voting during random voting stage? Weird.
yeah it does seem kind of weird.
I dont know too much about the flavour, only been over the lyrics once.
Quote from TheIceMan »
I think also that although I'm supportive of a soft-claim to generate discussion, I feel that it would not be great in its current form. There are far fewer Locations than Things/People, so anyone claiming Place would probably be a lot easier to identify.
Haven't completed a mafia game yet so can someone explain to me how an object or place can be a role?
Haven't completed a mafia game yet so can someone explain to me how an object or place can be a role?
Preeeety much anything can be a role, if it's written well enough. I don't want to suppose what the roles might be here, but there are several objects in the song that could easily be roles. Don't overthink Mafia, whether scumhunting or attempting to game the mod.
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So as for the soft-claim, I don't really care either way. I'm not worried about it hurting us, and I'm not worried about it helping scum too much.
I was fairly satisfied with your logic about not understanding the difference between a soft-claim and a real claim (I checked out your other game, and there is no D1 soft claim), but would you please clarify this for me? Why is it you don't care either way if you can only provide two reasons (which to me seems to actually only be one reason: hurt us = help scum) that suggest you are in favor of it?
Why is it you don't care either way if you can only provide two reasons (which to me seems to actually only be one reason: hurt us = help scum) that suggest you are in favor of it?
I'm not in favor of it, I'm just not against it. I don't see any way that it could hurt us, but I don't really see that big of a way that it could help us. There's always the chance that the roles are funky and even a soft claim would help the town or the scum significantly, for example if the doc can only protect "people" or the roleblocker can only roleblock nonpeople, etc. Since everything is so unknown at this point, we might want to hold out until D2, when we have the info from the lynch and NK, namely role information.
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I'm not in favor of it, I'm just not against it. I don't see any way that it could hurt us, but I don't really see that big of a way that it could help us. There's always the chance that the roles are funky and even a soft claim would help the town or the scum significantly, for example if the doc can only protect "people" or the roleblocker can only roleblock nonpeople, etc. Since everything is so unknown at this point, we might want to hold out until D2, when we have the info from the lynch and NK, namely role information.
Seriously, you guys are overthinking this. This is a basic. You're not going to be coming across stuff like this, I promise.
I have to re-read again, because I kinda skimmed it.
Please explain what you meant by the first part. The second part seems to imply that your suspicions were aroused to the point of inquiry by something you "kinda skimmed".
Seems like a vague post, made just for the appearance of participation to me. Unvote. Vote: Kennethwong
Also, to get someone else involved, I'd like to hear what you think of Kenneth's post, IceMan.
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Please explain what you meant by the first part. The second part seems to imply that your suspicions were aroused to the point of inquiry by something you "kinda skimmed".
Seems like a vague post, made just for the appearance of participation to me. Unvote. Vote: Kennethwong
Meh, my personal take on this is that Kenneth is just confused noob, just like in #20. He's playing the same vague style as in that game.
@Kennethwong: Please don't say that you reread something if you only "kinda skimmed." Not only is it annoying, but it's a distraction to the real scum hunting that we need to get done around here.
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Meh, my personal take on this is that Kenneth is just confused noob, just like in #20. He's playing the same vague style as in that game.
@Kennethwong: Please don't say that you reread something if you only "kinda skimmed." Not only is it annoying, but it's a distraction to the real scum hunting that we need to get done around here.
With little else going on right now, I saw this as the most compelling issue to press. While I'm not saying "omg guys, obv scum", I am content to leave my vote at least until I hear a response out of him.
Also, trying to determine if a post was genuinely suspicious or newb mistake will only lead into a WIFOM situation, so I'd rather try to get another post out of him so that there's more to go on, than just let it slide.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Question to MandersHex: Why vote talore? I reread everything I missed and I don't see a point in lynching him, explain plox?
And what's soft-claim?
I think it's probably significant that he does not vote, does not FoS, or anything. He comes out with a fairly strong claim ("why are you trying to lynch Talore - I find that scummy") and then does not vote. This seems like an attempt to change the subject and put suspicion on someone else without having to actually cast a vote. But it could also just be a noob move, I'd like to hear a little bit more before because it's just his first post.
Because you first did the soft-claim thing.
I have to re-read again, because I kinda skimmed it.
If you had actually reread the thread you'd see that the suspicions had nothing to do with the soft-claim itself, but in fact had a lot more to do with Talore's logic and his use of FoS that came as a result of discussing the soft-claim. In fact the first person to vote for Talore was Kraj. I'm having a hard time believing that Kenneth has even read the thread thoroughly with these kinds of responses. So, Kenneth:
Your reasoning for singling out MH doesn't make sense to me. What does proposing a soft-claim have to do with voting for Talore? The only logical connection I can draw is that you find proposing a soft-claim scummy - so: do you have some reason to believe that a soft-claim is scummy here?
In fact, I'd also like to ask you whether you'd read the thread thoroughly or not when you made your last two posts. Because if not I'm really having trouble with the logic behind them.
I'd also be interested why VibeBox singled out a single player for their opinion. He could of have a general request for opinion, rather than a random person.
@Kraj: It seems nobody else is voicing negative opinion on me. =P
@KennethWong: You say in one post that you read what you missed, then say you need to re-read because you only skimmed. You had the same contradictions in #20. Try saying what you mean, as you can see in the other game people don't take kindly to inconsistencies.
I'd also be interested why VibeBox singled out a single player for their opinion. He could of have a general request for opinion, rather than a random person.
If you want an ambulance you don't cry "someone call an ambulance!", you point at someone specifically and shout "call a damn ambulance!".
I arbitrarily chose someone from the player list on the OP, and mentioned them specifically. Considering it got a response from you in a little over an hour, I'd say the tactic was a success. There are certainly other people I'd like to see more posts from as well, but hopefully in time increased posting in general will prod them into action and keep the pace up.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
OK...My post was more a result of my waking up and seeing something had happened in the thread while I was asleep (I live in China). It would be nice if we could get some Mod-prodding of inactive players, by my count we have 3-5 people who've posted nothing in a while.
im gona be away for the next 2-3 days so i wont be able to post.
I believe that kenneth is just making noob mistakes. doesnt mean that hes not scum, but he was acting this way in 20 as well
[QUOTE=VibeBox;/comments/10671887]If you want an ambulance you don't cry "someone call an ambulance!", you point at someone specifically and shout "call a damn ambulance!". [QUOTE]
This analogy is... Subjective. You might point to someone specifically, but to say that everyone would do it is broad and, in my mind, trying to leave the person who reads it no room to think otherwise. Personally, I would call the damn ambulance myself. That way to be sure it was done. But in general "someone call an ambulance" would be enough to get the job done.
Also I don't agree with you voting someone for a verbal mis-cue. I can't say that Kenneth has been the most clear with what he was saying, but at least the things he is saying make sense together.
If you want an ambulance you don't cry "someone call an ambulance!", you point at someone specifically and shout "call a damn ambulance!".
This analogy is... Subjective. You might point to someone specifically, but to say that everyone would do it is broad and, in my mind, trying to leave the person who reads it no room to think otherwise. Personally, I would call the damn ambulance myself. That way to be sure it was done. But in general "someone call an ambulance" would be enough to get the job done.
Also I don't agree with you voting someone for a verbal mis-cue. I can't say that Kenneth has been the most clear with what he was saying, but at least the things he is saying make sense together.
unvote, vote: Vibe
While I don't agree with his voting for Kenneth that quickly for an obvious noobish verbal mistake (FoS: VibeBox), I see his point about the ambulance thing. In human psychology, everyone thinks that "someone" else will take care of it. You have to single out people for it to work. I for one don't see anything wrong with his tactic. He already had "called the ambulance himself" by providing his opinion and vote on Kennth.
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Level 1 Judge
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
This analogy is... Subjective. You might point to someone specifically, but to say that everyone would do it is broad and, in my mind, trying to leave the person who reads it no room to think otherwise. Personally, I would call the damn ambulance myself. That way to be sure it was done. But in general "someone call an ambulance" would be enough to get the job done.
Perhaps I could have been a bit more clear here. I was referring to the observed tendency of crowds to not take responsibility for helping people. Specifically, the findings I had read to the effect that when in a situation in which you need someone else to call an ambulance, picking out a single target is preferable to general calls for help, because the general call probably is not enough to get the job done.
The thing I find odd about your objection here is that I don't see what it is you think I'm trying to do. What nefarious motivation do you imagine that is well served by my ambulance comments?
Also I don't agree with you voting someone for a verbal mis-cue. I can't say that Kenneth has been the most clear with what he was saying, but at least the things he is saying make sense together.
Please tell me why you think the following response to MH's question "makes sense together".
Because you first did the soft-claim thing.
I have to re-read again, because I kinda skimmed it.
Emphasis added.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
After looking at the vote count, people should unvote any and all remaining random votes so as to not muddle the mixture.
I find it interesting that even after that second post your vote remains also on Kenneth. If it was so obviously a newbtown mistake, why leave your vote on him?
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
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Ok, fair enough. I know who that is (verily), I just didn't know the finger thing. I thought you were talking about one of those "#1" Fingers and thought Nappa was a reference to a company of some sort.
The team it will help the most is the team with the best knowledge of the subject. As it is, I don't like the idea. Due mostly to the fact that I thought this theme was the one where the dude did dirty things to a pie...
In my thinking limiting the scum choices could make their false claims be accurate.
Also I'm not a thing I'm a person.
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It's not like I didn't expressly say in the signup thread that this game was based off the song and not the trashy teen movies.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I'm not sure how else we can explain except to say that it is a proven fact that soft-claiming locks scum into something that they will have to match in claiming later.
Like, for instance, if a scum were to claim they were a thing, then when full-claiming say they are Don McLean, that would not match and would out them as scum. Granted, it's relatively easy for scum to false-claim the same kind of thing that they soft-claimed, but they may still slip-up somewhere in the game, thus outing themselves, regarding what kind of person (M or F) place (country of location) or thing (animate or inanimate) etc.
Look, if you guys don't want to believe me on the benefits of a soft-claim, then let's wait for the two most experienced players in the game to weigh in (i.e. ImTehFairy and Kraj). Well, VibeBox has played a fair amount, as well, but says he's not very good. Still, bet he has an opinion on this as well.
Then why did you say this?:
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I just didn't wanted to be used by the mafia. You know I'm a noob and i would be easilly confused.
@mh : Poor choice of words. I reread my character and I'm what can be called as people.
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I'll downgrade my FoS to an IGMEOY.
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i search on the web but came up with nothing
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From what I can remember Soft-Claims were sometimes used to little ill effect. However I must say my initial reaction is to be slightly against it because of the theme. It seems with such a limited number of possible roles to be garnered from just a song it may be awkward.
The negative scenario that immediately played out in my head was that everyone claims "person" or something, except one player, and if that player is not scum they become a pretty easy target for NK since a role with something unique about it would seem likely to have a power or something.
While this is admittedly a corner-case and probably not what would happen, it doesn't seem worth it to open ourselves up to that low percentage negative outcome just for the low percentage positive that one of the scum is awful and plays into a soft-claim lock.
Fake Edit: Ok, I went through the lyric of the song to check how many possible roles it seemed there was. After reading, I think there are probably enough to avoid the scenario I mention.
I'm still not enthused about a soft claim this early, but I admittedly have no better ideas on how to get conversation going. Day 1 was always my least favorite part of the game. : -/
Random thoughts after reading the lyrics:
Man, I hate this song and its America Loving.
Too bad Zin said he wouldn't have a Jester, since this seems the perfect Theme to have one.
If the Beatles are scum I'll be sad. : -(
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Pfft. You expect people to read during a game of mafia?
Scum may not know that their name makes them scummy. Or it won't, but when forced to claim a role it might end up not making sense with the name they claimed. Or they could get sloppy and contradict themselves.
The point being, before we get some claims and deaths (especially scum deaths) we don't really know for sure what will be relevant and useful. Now, considering this is a basic and the flavor is rather abstract, I doubt role names are going to bust the game. But you never know, and on day 1 you kinda need something to kick-start discussion. In other words, Manders' reasons are exactly right.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that limiting their choices makes them less likely to be caught lying. That's reasonable, but what it also does is make it more difficult for them to successfully lie when they need to. See?
Quick pointer: if you're unsure about participating in a mass claim, participating in the mass claim is not the best way to express that point of view.
********
About the specific soft claim Manders proposed, I'm fine with it. It doesn't seem likely to be particularly harmful, and even if the information isn't useful the discussion will be. However, I've already found something relevant to discuss without doing the claim:
I don't like this at all. Even if you've got a good reason for thinking soft claims help the scum, I don't like this weak FoS on Manders and unvote. The game is just getting out of random, there's no reason to be cautious with your vote and this strikes me as being overly tentative.
Unvote, Vote: Talore
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At first i didn't really understood mh claim and mh thought i claimed i am a "thing".
It thought i should clarify this and after reading mh responses it convinced me that it could help us so i thought it didn't matter anyway.
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Wait what? I'm pretty sure four other people have unvoted without voting someone else, too. Unless I'm missing something, of course. The other game I've played in didn't do claiming, and the only people who did claim were at L-2, so I'm under the impression one should wait until that point to claim stuff; (or at least until later in the game, from what I see of other mafia games I'm reading)
Ineptness strikes me again =P
lrd told me that FoS doesn't really mean anything, as it isn't an actual vote. Why so jumpy?
Which means that you said something weird but you shouldn't be voted for that.
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Why would you think it means nothing? Can't speculate as to why lrd told you it means nothing.
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This sounds like a contradiction to me. If you've dismissed the reason you're against a soft-claim, why are you still "not enthused about [it]"?
What I'd like to know is if you have a good enough reason to believe a soft-claim hurts the town (and thus implying MH is scum), why did you not fully vote for MH? How can you reason that an early soft claim is necessarily bad and scummy on the basis of one game of mafia (and if you've been reading other games, as I have, you'd see that MH seems to fairly often propose a soft-claim early)? And though I'm new to this it seems that an early claim of some sort would not really help scum here.
I think also that although I'm supportive of a soft-claim to generate discussion, I feel that it would not be great in its current form. There are far fewer Locations than Things/People, so anyone claiming Place would probably be a lot easier to identify.
Unvote. Vote: Talore.
The point is not unvoting without voting someone else, the point is not voting someone whom you gave a reason for voting.
OK, I'll buy that. However, why did you think Manders is suspicious if you've never encountered the type of claim she proposed, and you were aware you may be wrong? Why not ask for clarification?
I'll let you respond to others before piling my additional comments on.
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I'm not enthused because as I said before I think it is a pretty low percentage play to actually catch scum. I'm not opposed to doing it if everyone decides that's what they want, but since it was only suggested to get discussion going, and we now seem to have a real discussion going on, I don't think it's necessary for now.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Yeah, but I did my research before the game started and saw that there are plenty of possible roles in the lyrics of the game.
This is, of course, the one drawback to a soft-claim, that it may single out a townie, making them seem scum for not fitting the theme.
Of course, this is also gaming the mod, which is generally frowned upon.
FYI: ANYONE THAT NEEDS AN EXPLANATION OF A MAFIA TERM (OR ANYTHING REALLY) DON'T HESITATE TO ASK. After all, we've all asked them at least once in our lifetime.
This is actually why I usually end up proposing a soft-claim because RVS bores me. I contribute, but it's still boring.
Umm, aren't you from America? Don't you love it?
Jester. Ha. I've been told by tooo many people it's a dick move, lol.
Agreed on that.
Sweetheart, you know if I had gotten it, I would have.
Upon re-reading, I'm not even positive which statement was the pun, unless you mean "Grievous mistake" punning Star Wars.
A good find indeed, my dear Kraj. Let's see how he responds, shall we?
It's fishy to me that you would Fos me without understanding what I was saying, as you admit you didn't. You didn't understand the benefit of a soft-claim, so you decide to vote me for it? What else have I done to deserve that FoS?
2 things:
1) Who are you accusing of being jumpy?
2) Seeing as how you reacted so strongly to one person seriously voting for you, this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, whoever it's directed at.
It's still suspicious that you FoS'd at all. See vezokpiraka above. He was leery. He didn't understand the benefit. Did he show suspicion on me for it? No.
Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with a Vote: Talore
Yeah, again, this would be gaming the mod.
Edit: VibeBox is absolutely correct now. The soft-claim proposal can be shelved for now, since there is actual discussion. That, ladies (oh, wait, I'm the only lady, lol) gentlemen, is the purpose for proposing a soft-claim.
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How many games of mafia did you play?
He could have thought that fosing is just saying that suspicions and wanted to share his suspicion.
Also he did a lot of things that i did in my first game. Where i was scum
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By "gaming the mod" do you mean acting on information the Mod may have unintentionally given due to game setup?
Or is it more like "making assumptions about Mod behavior based on roles"?
If the former, then I disagree with the stigma, as it is the Mod's job not to give things away accidentally, and create game balance. It is not the players' job to feign ignorance for the sake of the game.
I am, and I do not. I guess I better "leave it".
I don't see why it's a dick move. Sure it wastes the Town's efforts, and even a lynch, but you could compensate by giving the Town a little extra. A one shot Vig or something.
That's what he meant. He almost got my random vote for it too.
Kraj can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the concern is that the FoS was given in such a way that can sometimes be read as scummy because it looks like Scum trying to cast suspicion and get someone else to vote for that person so that later if the FoS-target is lynched they can claim "Well, it wasn't me that started the wagon, it was person X".
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I meant the latter.
Haha, fair enough.
Honestly, I don't either. I want to make a game including a jester. That's just what I've been told everytime I've mentioned to someone I wanted to use one.
Ah, ok. lol
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In my head I didn't fully seperate soft claim and claim; I kinda lumped them together as the same thing for my reasoning, which I see now was an innacurate thing to do. I'm trying to learn by watching others actions and not ask too many questions (I've seen others be hammered for 'playing the noob card')
Once again* I lumped all claims together in my head. Yeah, I should of asked but I thought I understood enough. (*I'm typing backwards... =P)
I implied that Kraj was being jumpy with a vote due to my ignorance. I didn't think I was being jumpy. Lurking is a scum tactic, so I wanted to explain my side. =\ I didn't think an FoS was so serious an implication!
I'm in 2 games, this one and Basic #20, so I've never completed one.
That's what I meant by FoSing; I was kind of suspicious, but didn't want to do something mechanically seroius like a vote incase someone proves me wrong. I was just being honest with my thoughts, that's what town is supposed to do, right? Be honest?
If there's so much pressure, I'll claim or whatever. =/
In hindsight, FoS should have been that other long abbreviation (I've got my eye on you?) =(
Well indeed that's exactly what it's for. Telling the difference between who is making honest but clumsy observations and who is deliberately trying to mislead the town is the trick, isn't it?
That is the gist of it, yes. Scum generally want to support aggression on a townie without being seen as an aggressor (a good exception to this is when a townie makes a genuine mistake or scumtell that a scum can justifiably be aggressive about).
And a jester isn't a dick role because it hurts the town, it's a dick role because it ruins the point of the game. The fun of the game comes from mafias trying to mislead towns into lynching the wrong people and towns trying to determine who is trying to mislead them. Jesters ruin that dynamic by intentionally getting the town to lynch them. It just ruins the fun. Imagine a multiplayer game of Magic where one player in the group did nothing but play counterspells, discard, land destruction, and removal, and basically said "I have no way to win so I'm just going to mess you all up until you kill me". Fun? No.
OK, I'll buy that.
Confusing choice of words; usually jumpy refers to being overly defensive about something. You meant I was being overly aggressive. Again, I'll buy that.
Hold that thought. We've got at least a few players who should give their opinions first; no need to claim before -2 at this point.
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She knows why.
FOSing me for random voting during random voting stage? Weird.
I don't know if you've ever had someone do it here, but I have played a couple games where there was a member of the mafia who was a jester. He counted for their numbers but could not win with them if he survived. It was.. Interesting.
Anyways, a know this is a bit late, but I love how nobody Voted or FoSd Manders in that lolzy Texas = Cult thing, despite the fact that it says so right in each post that she's in Texas. /random
So as for the soft-claim, I don't really care either way. I'm not worried about it hurting us, and I'm not worried about it helping scum too much. As for whoever had the argument that it helps people who know the flavor more, http://tinyurl.com/27ldevo.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
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unvote
yeah it does seem kind of weird.
I dont know too much about the flavour, only been over the lyrics once.
Haven't completed a mafia game yet so can someone explain to me how an object or place can be a role?
Preeeety much anything can be a role, if it's written well enough. I don't want to suppose what the roles might be here, but there are several objects in the song that could easily be roles. Don't overthink Mafia, whether scumhunting or attempting to game the mod.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
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I was fairly satisfied with your logic about not understanding the difference between a soft-claim and a real claim (I checked out your other game, and there is no D1 soft claim), but would you please clarify this for me? Why is it you don't care either way if you can only provide two reasons (which to me seems to actually only be one reason: hurt us = help scum) that suggest you are in favor of it?
I'm not in favor of it, I'm just not against it. I don't see any way that it could hurt us, but I don't really see that big of a way that it could help us. There's always the chance that the roles are funky and even a soft claim would help the town or the scum significantly, for example if the doc can only protect "people" or the roleblocker can only roleblock nonpeople, etc. Since everything is so unknown at this point, we might want to hold out until D2, when we have the info from the lynch and NK, namely role information.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
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Seriously, you guys are overthinking this. This is a basic. You're not going to be coming across stuff like this, I promise.
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Oh lol, I forgot that this was a Basic.
So, completely off topic, how's the MtG in DFW? I'm moving to Richardson this summer for college at UTD next fall.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
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And what's soft-claim?
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If you've re-read everything, then you should have seen the explanations provided.
A soft-claim means that everyone will claim some aspect of their role, in this case whether we're a person/place/thing.
Now, a question for you. Why did you single me out on this?
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Because you first did the soft-claim thing.
I have to re-read again, because I kinda skimmed it.
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Please explain what you meant by the first part. The second part seems to imply that your suspicions were aroused to the point of inquiry by something you "kinda skimmed".
Seems like a vague post, made just for the appearance of participation to me.
Unvote. Vote: Kennethwong
Also, to get someone else involved, I'd like to hear what you think of Kenneth's post, IceMan.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Meh, my personal take on this is that Kenneth is just confused noob, just like in #20. He's playing the same vague style as in that game.
@Kennethwong: Please don't say that you reread something if you only "kinda skimmed." Not only is it annoying, but it's a distraction to the real scum hunting that we need to get done around here.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
With little else going on right now, I saw this as the most compelling issue to press. While I'm not saying "omg guys, obv scum", I am content to leave my vote at least until I hear a response out of him.
Also, trying to determine if a post was genuinely suspicious or newb mistake will only lead into a WIFOM situation, so I'd rather try to get another post out of him so that there's more to go on, than just let it slide.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I think it's probably significant that he does not vote, does not FoS, or anything. He comes out with a fairly strong claim ("why are you trying to lynch Talore - I find that scummy") and then does not vote. This seems like an attempt to change the subject and put suspicion on someone else without having to actually cast a vote. But it could also just be a noob move, I'd like to hear a little bit more before because it's just his first post.
If you had actually reread the thread you'd see that the suspicions had nothing to do with the soft-claim itself, but in fact had a lot more to do with Talore's logic and his use of FoS that came as a result of discussing the soft-claim. In fact the first person to vote for Talore was Kraj. I'm having a hard time believing that Kenneth has even read the thread thoroughly with these kinds of responses. So, Kenneth:
Your reasoning for singling out MH doesn't make sense to me. What does proposing a soft-claim have to do with voting for Talore? The only logical connection I can draw is that you find proposing a soft-claim scummy - so: do you have some reason to believe that a soft-claim is scummy here?
In fact, I'd also like to ask you whether you'd read the thread thoroughly or not when you made your last two posts. Because if not I'm really having trouble with the logic behind them.
@Kraj: It seems nobody else is voicing negative opinion on me. =P
@KennethWong: You say in one post that you read what you missed, then say you need to re-read because you only skimmed. You had the same contradictions in #20. Try saying what you mean, as you can see in the other game people don't take kindly to inconsistencies.
If you want an ambulance you don't cry "someone call an ambulance!", you point at someone specifically and shout "call a damn ambulance!".
I arbitrarily chose someone from the player list on the OP, and mentioned them specifically. Considering it got a response from you in a little over an hour, I'd say the tactic was a success. There are certainly other people I'd like to see more posts from as well, but hopefully in time increased posting in general will prod them into action and keep the pace up.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I believe that kenneth is just making noob mistakes. doesnt mean that hes not scum, but he was acting this way in 20 as well
This analogy is... Subjective. You might point to someone specifically, but to say that everyone would do it is broad and, in my mind, trying to leave the person who reads it no room to think otherwise. Personally, I would call the damn ambulance myself. That way to be sure it was done. But in general "someone call an ambulance" would be enough to get the job done.
Also I don't agree with you voting someone for a verbal mis-cue. I can't say that Kenneth has been the most clear with what he was saying, but at least the things he is saying make sense together.
unvote, vote: Vibe
Talore (3) - Kraj, TheIceMan, MandersHex
iPot (1) - Kennethwong
Kennethwong (2) - Zajnet, VibeBox
Zajnet (1) - ImTehFairy
VibeBox (1) - iPot
Not voting: vezokpiraka, Talore, TeknoLink, dracofaust
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
I don't think mod prods will be necessary yet - the game only just started on Monday.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
While I don't agree with his voting for Kenneth that quickly for an obvious noobish verbal mistake (FoS: VibeBox), I see his point about the ambulance thing. In human psychology, everyone thinks that "someone" else will take care of it. You have to single out people for it to work. I for one don't see anything wrong with his tactic. He already had "called the ambulance himself" by providing his opinion and vote on Kennth.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
After looking at the vote count, people should unvote any and all remaining random votes so as to not muddle the mixture.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
Perhaps I could have been a bit more clear here. I was referring to the observed tendency of crowds to not take responsibility for helping people. Specifically, the findings I had read to the effect that when in a situation in which you need someone else to call an ambulance, picking out a single target is preferable to general calls for help, because the general call probably is not enough to get the job done.
The thing I find odd about your objection here is that I don't see what it is you think I'm trying to do. What nefarious motivation do you imagine that is well served by my ambulance comments?
Please tell me why you think the following response to MH's question "makes sense together".
Emphasis added.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I find it interesting that even after that second post your vote remains also on Kenneth. If it was so obviously a newbtown mistake, why leave your vote on him?
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube