Is the implication here that we should just claim mechanics?
The problem with this is that the definition of the word "mechanic" isn't clear. For example, let's say we full claim and discover that we have 6 docs. Something's clearly up, and we might start believing that we have a communal doc of some sort. But if we do a mechanic claim, this mechanism remains hidden and useless.
@Ged- #2 is key why the mass claim is similar to the acronym claim. #3 is the key difference, true. But i happen to think that #2, in addition to revealing the game's mechanics for town coordination is well worth the downside of revealing our roles.
So mad with kpaca right now. Couldn't even wait for Nom to answer some simple questions and if nothing else help pin down loran a bit more (the point of my question to Nom, which he can no longer frigging answer, was to work out when loran could have roleblocked. Given the info we have on timestamp order, if loran used a roleblock it had to be before Nom launched. So if Nom attacked Loran when he first posted he did, something else must be up, like a passive kill protection system, which has very different implications. And now there's no way to tell. So thanks a lot to kpaca.
Ummm, do you need to know the mechanism of how Nom was blocked? I didn't claim that for a reason.
I also note that if Nom's kill was item-based, kpaca now has the item. I don't think I like that even if kpaca is town.
This is true. Kpaca is an idiot. If he's town or scum is another question.
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Scum can be locked into stuff without a full claim. Arguments by reference to other games is a mistake; I could raise examples like my own Persona mafia as to
games where an early mass claim would have been a disaster area for the town and let the scum rapidly cherrypick the best powers for themsemselves. The thing about a mass claim is it is still available later (and doesn't need to wait for LyLo certainly, despite the "book" practice of doing so). Doing it day 1 means the scum can kill the most dangerous townies in the shortest and best order. I doubt we'll get as much out of it. It's just speculative at the moment. I would rather play the game at this stage than engage in speculative ability planning.
So mad with kpaca right now. Couldn't even wait for Nom to answer some simple questions and if nothing else help pin down loran a bit more (the point of my question to Nom, which he can no longer frigging answer, was to work out when loran could have roleblocked. Given the info we have on timestamp order, if loran used a roleblock it had to be before Nom launched. So if Nom attacked Loran when he first posted he did, something else must be up, like a passive kill protection system, which has very different implications. And now there's no way to tell. So thanks a lot to kpaca.
I also note that if Nom's kill was item-based, kpaca now has the item. I don't think I like that even if kpaca is town.
This is true. Kpaca is an idiot. If he's town or scum is another question.
I do not appreciate that comment, and while I recognize that your signature move is being a douchebag until the person you are doing it to freaks out and posts their role pm in the thread, but surprisingly I won't be going that route. However, I would appreciate you keep your insults to yourself
In conclusion if there are any questions related to my kill of Nom I will answer them, but know that I stand by my decision.
Furthermore I am voting a strong nay.
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Scum can be locked into stuff without a full claim. Arguments by reference to other games is a mistake; I could raise examples like my own Persona mafia as to
games where an early mass claim would have been a disaster area for the town and let the scum rapidly cherrypick the best powers for themsemselves. The thing about a mass claim is it is still available later (and doesn't need to wait for LyLo certainly, despite the "book" practice of doing so). Doing it day 1 means the scum can kill the most dangerous townies in the shortest and best order. I doubt we'll get as much out of it. It's just speculative at the moment. I would rather play the game at this stage than engage in speculative ability planning.
I don't think it's speculative in a game guarenteed to be a complex specialty.
And as I've pointed out before, i think the loss of coordination by going it dark through the first few days is worse than the benefit gained by scum firing into the dark and not eliminating the "top power role."
-------------------------------------
SIDENOTE:
kpaca: Please Explain, and explain what the shotgun did. Was Nom's identity non-revealed because of your ability?
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I don't think it's speculative in a game guarenteed to be a complex specialty.
And as I've pointed out before, i think the loss of coordination by going it dark through the first few days is worse than the benefit gained by scum firing into the dark and not eliminating the "top power role."
-------------------------------------
SIDENOTE:
kpaca: Please Explain, and explain what the shotgun did. Was Nom's identity non-revealed because of your ability?
The sawed off shotgun had both a static and one shot target ability. The static ability meant that any non-kill target of me would be negated, and the user would have to pick a target.
I also had a one shot anytime kill, at which point the gun would be discarded.
Only alignments are revealed after a death from my gun.
Actually fwiw it was two seperate items, one the shotgun and one "the shell". Use of the shell taxed up the shotgun though.
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The problem with this is that the definition of the word "mechanic" isn't clear. For example, let's say we full claim and discover that we have 6 docs. Something's clearly up, and we might start believing that we have a communal doc of some sort. But if we do a mechanic claim, this mechanism remains hidden and useless.
It was a question for Eco; I wanted him to clarify what he meant. I'm well aware of everything you said.
@Ged- #2 is key why the mass claim is similar to the acronym claim. #3 is the key difference, true. But i happen to think that #2, in addition to revealing the game's mechanics for town coordination is well worth the downside of revealing our roles.
The sawed off shotgun had both a static and one shot target ability. The static ability meant that any non-kill target of me would be negated, and the user would have to pick a target.
I also had a one shot anytime kill, at which point the gun would be discarded.
Only alignments are revealed after a death from my gun.
Actually fwiw it was two seperate items, one the shotgun and one "the shell". Use of the shell taxed up the shotgun though.
So wait, you gave up the ability to force someone who would kill you to kill another person (A negative if you're targeted by the scum, a positive if you're targeted by a town vig) for a shot of another player, without claim.
Please explain why you would do that? Why would you ever shoot a player without claim. THIS IS WHY WE WERE ANGRY AT NOM AT THE FIRST PLACE.
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kpaca's claim seems legit, but it was a stupid play. although I kinda wish he had said this earlier...=\
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Look, the next person who fires off a daykill, nightkill, massive multi-vote, or anything that could be used as a second lynch without consulting the group as a whole we are going to outrage lynch regardless of the results of the kill.
Loran: well, if you were lying then yea, it was important to know for the usual reason.
BTW: This is still wrong. Nom told you what he did. He came up town. What more do you need to know?
If I'm town, it benefits you 0 to know how my ability might work, or how it stopped Nom.
If I'm scum, you should lynch me.
There really isn't a middle ground here...there's no benefit to the town to learn the mechanics of my ability.
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So mad with kpaca right now. Couldn't even wait for Nom to answer some simple questions and if nothing else help pin down loran a bit more (the point of my question to Nom, which he can no longer frigging answer, was to work out when loran could have roleblocked. Given the info we have on timestamp order, if loran used a roleblock it had to be before Nom launched. So if Nom attacked Loran when he first posted he did, something else must be up, like a passive kill protection system, which has very different implications. And now there's no way to tell. So thanks a lot to kpaca.
This is the key bit. Why you would need to know the answer to this is really really curious.
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Look, the next person who fires off a daykill, nightkill, massive multi-vote, or anything that could be used as a second lynch without consulting the group as a whole we are going to outrage lynch regardless of the results of the kill.
I'm going to say nay ont eh mass claim at this point for entirely selfish reasons. I think I'd be far more useful without knowledge of my item or ability floating around.
This is the key bit. Why you would need to know the answer to this is really really curious.
Well first, when I asked the question, we didn't know he was town. Well, I didn't. Did you?
Why I would still like to know, if Nom was able to somehow answer from the dead, is because I tend to believe it makes more sense for you to have passive protection (which would seriously color your words and actions) than to have been able to actively block Nom.
You seem to be acting like you're confirmed, loran. You're the farthest from it, and I don't trust you an inch.
BTW: This is still wrong. Nom told you what he did. He came up town. What more do you need to know?
If I'm town, it benefits you 0 to know how my ability might work, or how it stopped Nom.
If I'm scum, you should lynch me.
This is silly. The idea is to determine if you're scum. I wouldn't need to
bother asking questions if I knew already.
For someone backing a mass claim and who unilaterally claimed responsibility for a roleblock, you are being aggressively defensive about this. I didn't even ask you the mechanics of the ability, or anything. I asked Nom when he submitted his kill... The only way it could hurt you is if he confirmed he sumitted it when he said in the thread, making it a weenie bit difficult for you to roleblock him with anything but a passive ability.
It makes perfect sense. And no, he's trying too hard to make it look like I asked something unreasonable. I have almost nothing on him, and maybe there's nothing to get. At the moment we're all just talking (some of us, anyway). There's not enough to justify anything more.
That was probably Nom Anor, you're supposed to pm the mods when you use a post action.
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Well first, when I asked the question, we didn't know he was town. Well, I didn't. Did you?
Why I would still like to know, if Nom was able to somehow answer from the dead, is because I tend to believe it makes more sense for you to have passive protection (which would seriously color your words and actions) than to have been able to actively block Nom.
You seem to be acting like you're confirmed, loran. You're the farthest from it, and I don't trust you an inch.
and Here's the Point:
IF I have passive protection and am town: You'd rather the scum not know.
IF I have passive protection and am scum: It only matters if a vig attempts to target me.
The benefits of it being known (assuming no mass claim) are worse otherwise.
I think these benefits are outweighed by the mass claims' benefits, so i'm willing to claim in that circumstance.
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Not sure how far I want to go on this. However, given my experience in my last two games, where town coordination wound up failing and resulting in their failures, I wish to do something the opposite here.
Let's start with this. Propose Full Claim From Everyone. One thing I've noticed with specialties is that people get so caught up with the craziness that they ignore the basics, the flavor, and well also just use their abilities beyond inefficiently. Town Coordination will remedy that. Also, it'll force the scum to false claim early (abilities), which is a benefit.
While a full mass claim is unlikely to break a game, i don't believe it's harmful as people think. It'll let us know what we're dealing with with extra special mechanics, and so we can get this game done right.
(I thought of going with just an item claim, but that'll miss some mechanics and might, depending upon item distribution, result in one side being better off than the other (scum can lie about items). whereas a mass claim is likely to evenly affect the board.)
How do you know it's turned out horrible? Game's in progress, And they did lynch scum on day 1.
Besides here's the reason why: This is a XYRE SPECIALTY. There is almost certainly going to be hidden mechanics lying around, and interactions of roles. Coordinating them from day 1 will make this game much more level for the town, as it will eliminate role stupidity that players will do. (And they will do that).
The fact that this is a speciality does raise the benefit (hidden mechanics revealed) and lower the risk (probably not going to be stuff like straight up cop/doc).
Actually, just so we don't waste time speculating, I caused the day-RB myself. I will say no more about how the ability works and what it's limitations and shots are.
Hmm. While it;s certainly possible that you want to mass-claim as a town RB, the motive for you wanting a mass claim as scum just went up. A scum day RB becomes infinitely better with knowledge.
Re: the full claim. Normally I would give some consideration to a plan which takes a specialty game in a direction the mod probably didn't expect. But this is an item game with all that implies. Claims with items has the problem that there's almost inevitably going to be a scum item stealer or something, meanwhile the scum don't have to claim their items and whatnot. Claims without items give a huge loophole to any scum needing to use an ability he/she didn't claim. It won't give us the information parity a full claim might give in a non-item setup.
Hmm. I've got to wonder whether this isn't a scum kill designed to look like aggresive vigging. You certainly have the playstyle that would make people more likely to take it at face-value.
On kpaca/NA: I feel slightly better about kpaca based on his willingness to claim the kill in-thread (assuming that wasn't another post-based action). I still would have preferred a little more discussion, first, though. Nom Anor had been blocked. What was the problem with allowing him to talk for a while before offing him?
It might just be that my last two games were Azrael joints, but I am dubious about this. I don't think anyone ever lied about their abilities in Inheritance (maybe desCoures?) and it didn't help the town. Admittedly, that was a special case - fully randomized role distribution - but I'm not convinced that knowing everyone's abilities in this game will do anything other than allow the scum to guide their kills more effectively.
This seems like sound reasoning.
Thinking about the massclaim, I'm not really sure if it's beneficial or not. As RR says it may not even lock scum into false-claims (however it would restrict what they did with their abilities, having to be accountable for them). What we do know that it will do is give the scum a priortized list of who their threats are. It may give us advantages in revealing hidden mechanics but we don't know that.
The way I see it right now, a massclaim would be taking a definite disadvantage in the hopes of gaining a better advantage (and also hoping that there aren't anymore disadvantages as a result). While on the other hand, not massclaiming doesn't cost us anything.
The way I see it right now, a massclaim would be taking a definite disadvantage in the hopes of gaining a better advantage (and also hoping that there aren't anymore disadvantages as a result). While on the other hand, not massclaiming doesn't cost us anything.
I disagree with this point. As I've said before, the town LOSES OUT VASTLY From a lack of coordination. It's a key reason why mafias tend to win lately....the town's ability to do behavioral ability is rather well, poor these days, and they don't utilize their abilities smartly due to no coordination, causing easy scum wins.
Especially with the # of good analysts falling greatly lately. (I consider only one player here a decent analyst, and imo he's better as scum than town.)
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@Penguin, i signed up for the game, not the flavor. If i miss anything game related in the flavor, i hope you'll catch it for me.
If you sign up for a game, you're signing up for the flavor as well. You won't succeed in a game like this without paying attention to the flavor.
Just saying.
hmm, I see what you mean, especially about the unknown mechanic thing, but I still think that it would be beneficial to the town to wait for a night or two, so that any investigative roles have a real reason to claim-as in guilty/innocent investigations.
Absolutely it would. There is zero reason to do this Day 1, especially if the only real proposed benefits is to aid in coordination and "lock scum in" (more on that in a moment).
By that same token, that means a night or two of not taking full advantage of the mechanics of the game.
I'm curious as to why you view this game as a giant puzzle. What makes you think we'll be able to 'take full advantage'? Having everything open could just as easily help the scum take full advantage. And we have no way of knowing until everything is out there.
Needlessly risky on DAY 1.
On loran/NA: I don't see how loran could have played this differently given NA's actions. Thus loran's ability is confirmed, but it says nothing about his alignment.
No. His ability is not confirmed. The fact that it happened, he claimed responsibility, and no one counterclaimed is confirmed, but there is much we don't know about how it happened and why.
Scum can be locked into stuff without a full claim. Arguments by reference to other games is a mistake; I could raise examples like my own Persona mafia as to
games where an early mass claim would have been a disaster area for the town and let the scum rapidly cherrypick the best powers for themsemselves. The thing about a mass claim is it is still available later (and doesn't need to wait for LyLo certainly, despite the "book" practice of doing so). Doing it day 1 means the scum can kill the most dangerous townies in the shortest and best order. I doubt we'll get as much out of it. It's just speculative at the moment. I would rather play the game at this stage than engage in speculative ability planning.
Another glaring issue I have with this D1MC is the fact that Loran and company seems to be assuming we'd lock scum into their claims, and if they're faked, we'll find out somehow.
This ignores the very real probability that not all of the town will be telling the whole truth.
If this goes through, there are going to be some people on the /nay side still.
And they'll probably be forced to claim right away on penalty of lynch/DK/whatever.
If they had good reason for not wanting to claim, and they're town, what makes you think they'll be forthright?
These likely lies will screw with whatever coordination and game-planning you think is coming as a result.
The sawed off shotgun had both a static and one shot target ability. The static ability meant that any non-kill target of me would be negated, and the user would have to pick a target.
I also had a one shot anytime kill, at which point the gun would be discarded.
Only alignments are revealed after a death from my gun.
Actually fwiw it was two seperate items, one the shotgun and one "the shell". Use of the shell taxed up the shotgun though.
By 'taxed up', do you mean it no longer has the static ability, or just that it no longer can kill?
I disagree with this point. As I've said before, the town LOSES OUT VASTLY From a lack of coordination. It's a key reason why mafias tend to win lately....the town's ability to do behavioral ability is rather well, poor these days, and they don't utilize their abilities smartly due to no coordination, causing easy scum wins.
Especially with the # of good analysts falling greatly lately. (I consider only one player here a decent analyst, and imo he's better as scum than town.)
Given your hatred of the flavor, and your bristling at the lack of even decent analysts in the game, it sounds to me like you only wanted to join to try push across this mass claim.
You're assuming here, without seeing anything to prove you right (since, you know, it's D1), that the town will be incapable of behaviorally finding scum. All based off 'recent games.' Which have nothing to do with this one.
Sorry, that's not a good enough reason to want to try to break a game that was just born.
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@Penguin_of_death see above. It's impossible to just "claim mechanics" because there's bound to be some "mechanics" that only are obvious to be (mechanics) when multiple players have them.
@AI: Let me rephrase the flavor thing. I hate xyre's writing style. I'm still combing over the flavor for clues as normal. That's all you need to know on that.
On Puzzle- Because Specialty games...tend to be puzzles. Now the puzzles of such a game can't be solved simply by a mass claim, behavioral analysis is still of course needed and this is still a game of mafia. That said, the town will be better off knowing what's out there.
.
This ignores the very real probability that not all of the town will be telling the whole truth.
If this goes through, there are going to be some people on the /nay side still.
And they'll probably be forced to claim right away on penalty of lynch/DK/whatever.
If they had good reason for not wanting to claim, and they're town, what makes you think they'll be forthright?
Alas, you name the problem...If 51% of the players agree to mass claim, the other 49 still can't practically be forced to do so. This is true.
That said, I hope that those who are in the minority, if we do mass claim, will realize that letting only half-the-town claim is just stupid and hurtful.
Listen, the mass claim will do both positives and negatives:
Negatives: Let Mafia know about certain Powers, AND WEAKEN SOME TOWN ROLES.
Positives: STRENGTHEN OTHER TOWN ROLES as well as allow the town to take the most advantage of mechanics.
IMO, the Positives will outweigh the negatives. Thus, if a townie isn't stupid, and we agree to mass claim, HE SHOULDN"T LIE LIKE THAT.
@Re: why i joined this game: yes, pushing forth the mass claim had part to do with it. And I'm not meaning to suggest the town couldn't win simply by behavioral analysis...but i think this will help. And i think the inefficiency caused by everyone going it alone won't help.
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I do not appreciate that comment, and while I recognize that your signature move is being a douchebag until the person you are doing it to freaks out and posts their role pm in the thread, but surprisingly I won't be going that route. However, I would appreciate you keep your insults to yourself
I think you are confusing Loran with Cyan. They are not the same.
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Alas, you name the problem...If 51% of the players agree to mass claim, the other 49 still can't practically be forced to do so. This is true.
That said, I hope that those who are in the minority, if we do mass claim, will realize that letting only half-the-town claim is just stupid and hurtful.
Listen, the mass claim will do both positives and negatives:
Negatives: Let Mafia know about certain Powers, AND WEAKEN SOME TOWN ROLES.
Positives: STRENGTHEN OTHER TOWN ROLES as well as allow the town to take the most advantage of mechanics.
IMO, the Positives will outweigh the negatives. Thus, if a townie isn't stupid, and we agree to mass claim, HE SHOULDN"T LIE LIKE THAT.
@Re: why i joined this game: yes, pushing forth the mass claim had part to do with it. And I'm not meaning to suggest the town couldn't win simply by behavioral analysis...but i think this will help. And i think the inefficiency caused by everyone going it alone won't help.
If the 51% of you start claiming and expect me to go along with it you are out of your mind. If it was 70% of players I would agree with it if it was 60% I would probably go along. But the thing is that it is almost a half and half split. You suggesting this on principle is bad. If you go through with this, then you should be ashamed of yourself.
Honestly this takes the blitzkrieg, that a few of the "more advanced"(In their minds) players use, to a more ridiculous level. Honestly if you try to go through with this idea I will not claim. You can lynch me go for it but I won't claim. If there is a true majority of players that want to claim and I mean by 60%-70% then I will. But if you try to force a claim upon the rest of us then I will have issues with it.
I still see a lot of debate, but I would really like to see everybody give there initial thoughts and then put themselves on the yay/ or nay/ lists. You can change your minds later, but too many people it seems are weighting out some sort of grand revelation before deciding. In fact I will make it easier.
New list:
Yay/
Guardman
Somewhat Yay/
Somewhat Nay/
Nay/
Fill in where you belong on this four answer list.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't think it's good to have 'somewhat yay/nay' listings, frankly. Either you're in favor, or you're opposed.
And honestly, when it comes to talking about a Day 1 mass-claim, there needs to be a large majority to go along with it. 51% majority is not good enough here.
And personally, I'm opposed to a mass-claim. If anything, I think that a specialty is the WORST time to try a mass-claim, because the games have a ridiculous amount of variance to them. Mass-claims are sometimes okay in minis etc, but I really can't see it benefitting the town here. Too much information has been leaked already due to Loran acting rashly.
Related to that, as rash as he has been, I do think he is town.
Related to that, as rash as he has been, I do think he is town.
Okay, now this is annoying me. I was scum in your last post. Mind explaining?
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When NA was still alive, honestly, it read to me like you two were just gambitting.
Clearly that is not the case, and your reaction to everyone else's attitude re: your mass claim idea over the last day or so has been reminiscent of your general town attitude.
1. If you actually had passive protection, after going to some trouble to establish yourself as a day roleblocker, it would imply you're scum, hence it WOULD be worth finding out and was worth asking Nom about.
2. If you believe everyone sucks at playing town and we can't even try to play behaviourally, quit joining games. Personally, I believe that towns keep jaing problems BECAUSE they keep trying to play base on claims and not behaviourally, and hey do
much better when they do rely on behaviour. People tend to write off behaviour after one bad read, and go back to claims despite mislynch after mislynch. I think it's because claim evidence is easier to quantify and make "logical" arguments on, people often can't quantify behavioural arguments beyond feelings. But that's the same thing that gets people conned in real life despite bad feelings- too much reliance on "logic" that is actually dependent on a lot of information and assumptions they don't have.
But you're right that I'm a better player as scum than town (although I can't even remember my last scum game, payback for being scum all the time a few years ago I guess). I have no idea if you actually meant me or not, but it's still true of me
When NA was still alive, honestly, it read to me like you two were just gambitting.
Clearly that is not the case, and your reaction to everyone else's attitude re: your mass claim idea over the last day or so has been reminiscent of your general town attitude.
Maybe. But I could see mason-gambit boy coming into this one as scum with a new gambit to try, this one to push a day 1 mass claim.
HOWEVER, I can still smell this terrible OMGUS vote. It smells like that hobo who was on the subway that one time. Was like he wet himself a month ago and hadn't showered or changed since
HOWEVER, I can still smell this terrible OMGUS vote. It smells like that hobo who was on the subway that one time. Was like he wet himself a month ago and hadn't showered or changed since
In several ( i think 3 games - Douglas Adams, and Harry Potter were 2) games, the town used this strategy. Basically, each player was said to summarize their role in a sentence or two, including flavor and ability.
Then take the first letter of the words in your sentence(s) and combine it.
So for example, if you were Ron Weasley, Roleblocker, you could make a claim of:
"IHBFWRHWCBP" or I"m Harry's Best Friend with Red Hair who can block people.
Everyone posts these claims. The result is that the mafia are locked into false claims from the start, and can't tailor their claims to the situation. Moreover, certain townie roles can confirm themselves at will (Cops for example), without fear of counterclaim.
They were banned as being very unfair in certain games; for example, in Harry Potter, the mafia basically had really scummy names and had to false claim and use their given fake claims early, without maximizing them and should've lost cuz of it (This led to a mason gambit which saved the mafia..but that had a ton of luck).
You're still allowed to Sub-Claim, but Acronym claims are banned.
I don't how much use an acronym claim would be (now that I know what it is :P)
It would lock the scum into a hole, but we would also spend a long time working out the acronyms instead of actually playing the game, and we do have a deadline. However it would lock the mafia into a hole. Hmmmmm....
1. If you actually had passive protection, after going to some trouble to establish yourself as a day roleblocker, it would imply you're scum, hence it WOULD be worth finding out and was worth asking Nom about.
I never went to any trouble to establish myself as a day roleblocker.
Nom claimed to be day roleblocked.
I made one post faking not knowing how it happened...and then thought better of it and admitted that the result was caused by me.
That said, I've expressly refused to state the mechanics of my block. So if it was a self-protection mechanism, it wouldn't be scummy (unless you thought that type of role was more likely on scum, but i don't see that at all).
2. If you believe everyone sucks at playing town and we can't even try to play behaviourally, quit joining games. Personally, I believe that towns keep jaing problems BECAUSE they keep trying to play base on claims and not behaviourally, and hey do
much better when they do rely on behaviour. People tend to write off behaviour after one bad read, and go back to claims despite mislynch after mislynch. I think it's because claim evidence is easier to quantify and make "logical" arguments on, people often can't quantify behavioural arguments beyond feelings. But that's the same thing that gets people conned in real life despite bad feelings- too much reliance on "logic" that is actually dependent on a lot of information and assumptions they don't have.
Could be. (And to be fair, I was gonna not join this one except i felt like seeing whether the players would accept a mass claim early, how people would react to it, and then see if it would be helpful. I'm theory-testing here. But I like Mafia too much to give it up entirely, even if i do think that some of the newer crop of players is a bit too blech.)
But you're right that I'm a better player as scum than town (although I can't even remember my last scum game, payback for being scum all the time a few years ago I guess). I have no idea if you actually meant me or not, but it's still true of me
No Comment (Okay, yes i was talking about you. But after RottK and Sin City back to back, I'll always seem to remember you being scum fairly often)
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
So wait, you gave up the ability to force someone who would kill you to kill another person (A negative if you're targeted by the scum, a positive if you're targeted by a town vig) for a shot of another player, without claim.
Please explain why you would do that? Why would you ever shoot a player without claim. THIS IS WHY WE WERE ANGRY AT NOM AT THE FIRST PLACE.
kpaca specifically says it affects non-kill targeting of him. So he wouldn't scare away a nightkill, but he would run off anyone investigating him. That makes is easier to understand the Day 1 firing, although not the first-post firing.
No. His ability is not confirmed. The fact that it happened, he claimed responsibility, and no one counterclaimed is confirmed, but there is much we don't know about how it happened and why.
I'm willing to believe him on his ability. If it wasn't him who did it, then it would have to have been a scumbuddy who was online while the NA/loran interaction was going on, and who loran was able to get to protect him during that discussion. The timestamps on the posts make it far more likely that loran submitted the protection himself (assuming it to be activated and not passive). Occam's Razor and such.
Alas, you name the problem...If 51% of the players agree to mass claim, the other 49 still can't practically be forced to do so. This is true.
That said, I hope that those who are in the minority, if we do mass claim, will realize that letting only half-the-town claim is just stupid and hurtful.
This is a worse idea that kpaca's shot was. You expect a bare majority to take a controversial, harmful action in the hope that the bare minority will follow suit? How the hell does that make sense?
FoxAsh? I don't get it, where does that come from? Is it that hard to memorize?
Your actual screen name is harder to memorize than Fhqwhgads' was, and at least I had a guide to pronounce his. I had to shorten it somehow, and since the Æ is referred to as an Ash, there was your name.
On the mass claim: I am restating my /nay. loran's arguments actually have nothing at all to do with this game in particular. He is just stating a theory that Day 1 mass claims, in general, are good. I have definitely seen setups in the past where Day 1 mass claims would have been harmful, so this isn't a universal truth. In this game in particular, I have seen nothing to indicate that outing all our abilities will do anything other than allow the scum to eliminate everyone who could tell that they are lying.
Based on Syrenz' list, that now makes a majority of players opposed. I'd still be interested to hear from the remaining undecided, but it looks like the mass claim proposal has failed.
On the mass claim: I am restating my /nay. loran's arguments actually have nothing at all to do with this game in particular. He is just stating a theory that Day 1 mass claims, in general, are good. I have definitely seen setups in the past where Day 1 mass claims would have been harmful, so this isn't a universal truth. In this game in particular, I have seen nothing to indicate that outing all our abilities will do anything other than allow the scum to eliminate everyone who could tell that they are lying.
Well, im talking specialties only, not universally...but that's the gist.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The problem with this is that the definition of the word "mechanic" isn't clear. For example, let's say we full claim and discover that we have 6 docs. Something's clearly up, and we might start believing that we have a communal doc of some sort. But if we do a mechanic claim, this mechanism remains hidden and useless.
@Ged- #2 is key why the mass claim is similar to the acronym claim. #3 is the key difference, true. But i happen to think that #2, in addition to revealing the game's mechanics for town coordination is well worth the downside of revealing our roles.
Ummm, do you need to know the mechanism of how Nom was blocked? I didn't claim that for a reason.
This is true. Kpaca is an idiot. If he's town or scum is another question.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
games where an early mass claim would have been a disaster area for the town and let the scum rapidly cherrypick the best powers for themsemselves. The thing about a mass claim is it is still available later (and doesn't need to wait for LyLo certainly, despite the "book" practice of doing so). Doing it day 1 means the scum can kill the most dangerous townies in the shortest and best order. I doubt we'll get as much out of it. It's just speculative at the moment. I would rather play the game at this stage than engage in speculative ability planning.
I do not have an item.
I do not appreciate that comment, and while I recognize that your signature move is being a douchebag until the person you are doing it to freaks out and posts their role pm in the thread, but surprisingly I won't be going that route. However, I would appreciate you keep your insults to yourself
In conclusion if there are any questions related to my kill of Nom I will answer them, but know that I stand by my decision.
Furthermore I am voting a strong nay.
I don't think it's speculative in a game guarenteed to be a complex specialty.
And as I've pointed out before, i think the loss of coordination by going it dark through the first few days is worse than the benefit gained by scum firing into the dark and not eliminating the "top power role."
-------------------------------------
SIDENOTE:
kpaca: Please Explain, and explain what the shotgun did. Was Nom's identity non-revealed because of your ability?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think Ged is probably scum.
The sawed off shotgun had both a static and one shot target ability. The static ability meant that any non-kill target of me would be negated, and the user would have to pick a target.
I also had a one shot anytime kill, at which point the gun would be discarded.
Only alignments are revealed after a death from my gun.
Actually fwiw it was two seperate items, one the shotgun and one "the shell". Use of the shell taxed up the shotgun though.
It was a question for Eco; I wanted him to clarify what he meant. I'm well aware of everything you said.
Agreed - that's the reason I'm in the /yay group.
Oops. Thought you were critiquing me.
Thanks Chamber.
So wait, you gave up the ability to force someone who would kill you to kill another person (A negative if you're targeted by the scum, a positive if you're targeted by a town vig) for a shot of another player, without claim.
Please explain why you would do that? Why would you ever shoot a player without claim. THIS IS WHY WE WERE ANGRY AT NOM AT THE FIRST PLACE.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Content please?
*cough killidar cough*
I'm undecided on a D1 massclaim atm.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
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I'm not exactly sure what to say about the daykill yet, so I'll ask for the reasoning behind it.
This is crap. Stop this crap.
I'm on the nay list.
BTW: This is still wrong. Nom told you what he did. He came up town. What more do you need to know?
If I'm town, it benefits you 0 to know how my ability might work, or how it stopped Nom.
If I'm scum, you should lynch me.
There really isn't a middle ground here...there's no benefit to the town to learn the mechanics of my ability.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is the key bit. Why you would need to know the answer to this is really really curious.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
this.
And hi all.
Well first, when I asked the question, we didn't know he was town. Well, I didn't. Did you?
Why I would still like to know, if Nom was able to somehow answer from the dead, is because I tend to believe it makes more sense for you to have passive protection (which would seriously color your words and actions) than to have been able to actively block Nom.
You seem to be acting like you're confirmed, loran. You're the farthest from it, and I don't trust you an inch.
This is silly. The idea is to determine if you're scum. I wouldn't need to
bother asking questions if I knew already.
For someone backing a mass claim and who unilaterally claimed responsibility for a roleblock, you are being aggressively defensive about this. I didn't even ask you the mechanics of the ability, or anything. I asked Nom when he submitted his kill... The only way it could hurt you is if he confirmed he sumitted it when he said in the thread, making it a weenie bit difficult for you to roleblock him with anything but a passive ability.
You're trying too hard to color him scum.
That was probably Nom Anor, you're supposed to pm the mods when you use a post action.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
and Here's the Point:
IF I have passive protection and am town: You'd rather the scum not know.
IF I have passive protection and am scum: It only matters if a vig attempts to target me.
The benefits of it being known (assuming no mass claim) are worse otherwise.
I think these benefits are outweighed by the mass claims' benefits, so i'm willing to claim in that circumstance.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Intriuging. I don't know if I like it yet or not.
The fact that this is a speciality does raise the benefit (hidden mechanics revealed) and lower the risk (probably not going to be stuff like straight up cop/doc).
Hmm. While it;s certainly possible that you want to mass-claim as a town RB, the motive for you wanting a mass claim as scum just went up. A scum day RB becomes infinitely better with knowledge.
This is some good reasoning against a mass-claim.
Hmm. I've got to wonder whether this isn't a scum kill designed to look like aggresive vigging. You certainly have the playstyle that would make people more likely to take it at face-value.
That's true.
This seems like sound reasoning.
Thinking about the massclaim, I'm not really sure if it's beneficial or not. As RR says it may not even lock scum into false-claims (however it would restrict what they did with their abilities, having to be accountable for them). What we do know that it will do is give the scum a priortized list of who their threats are. It may give us advantages in revealing hidden mechanics but we don't know that.
The way I see it right now, a massclaim would be taking a definite disadvantage in the hopes of gaining a better advantage (and also hoping that there aren't anymore disadvantages as a result). While on the other hand, not massclaiming doesn't cost us anything.
I'm going to say /nay.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
I disagree with this point. As I've said before, the town LOSES OUT VASTLY From a lack of coordination. It's a key reason why mafias tend to win lately....the town's ability to do behavioral ability is rather well, poor these days, and they don't utilize their abilities smartly due to no coordination, causing easy scum wins.
Especially with the # of good analysts falling greatly lately. (I consider only one player here a decent analyst, and imo he's better as scum than town.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If you sign up for a game, you're signing up for the flavor as well. You won't succeed in a game like this without paying attention to the flavor.
Just saying.
Absolutely it would. There is zero reason to do this Day 1, especially if the only real proposed benefits is to aid in coordination and "lock scum in" (more on that in a moment).
I'm curious as to why you view this game as a giant puzzle. What makes you think we'll be able to 'take full advantage'? Having everything open could just as easily help the scum take full advantage. And we have no way of knowing until everything is out there.
Needlessly risky on DAY 1.
No. His ability is not confirmed. The fact that it happened, he claimed responsibility, and no one counterclaimed is confirmed, but there is much we don't know about how it happened and why.
Another glaring issue I have with this D1MC is the fact that Loran and company seems to be assuming we'd lock scum into their claims, and if they're faked, we'll find out somehow.
This ignores the very real probability that not all of the town will be telling the whole truth.
If this goes through, there are going to be some people on the /nay side still.
And they'll probably be forced to claim right away on penalty of lynch/DK/whatever.
If they had good reason for not wanting to claim, and they're town, what makes you think they'll be forthright?
These likely lies will screw with whatever coordination and game-planning you think is coming as a result.
By 'taxed up', do you mean it no longer has the static ability, or just that it no longer can kill?
Given your hatred of the flavor, and your bristling at the lack of even decent analysts in the game, it sounds to me like you only wanted to join to try push across this mass claim.
You're assuming here, without seeing anything to prove you right (since, you know, it's D1), that the town will be incapable of behaviorally finding scum. All based off 'recent games.' Which have nothing to do with this one.
Sorry, that's not a good enough reason to want to try to break a game that was just born.
@AI: Let me rephrase the flavor thing. I hate xyre's writing style. I'm still combing over the flavor for clues as normal. That's all you need to know on that.
On Puzzle- Because Specialty games...tend to be puzzles. Now the puzzles of such a game can't be solved simply by a mass claim, behavioral analysis is still of course needed and this is still a game of mafia. That said, the town will be better off knowing what's out there.
Alas, you name the problem...If 51% of the players agree to mass claim, the other 49 still can't practically be forced to do so. This is true.
That said, I hope that those who are in the minority, if we do mass claim, will realize that letting only half-the-town claim is just stupid and hurtful.
Listen, the mass claim will do both positives and negatives:
Negatives: Let Mafia know about certain Powers, AND WEAKEN SOME TOWN ROLES.
Positives: STRENGTHEN OTHER TOWN ROLES as well as allow the town to take the most advantage of mechanics.
IMO, the Positives will outweigh the negatives. Thus, if a townie isn't stupid, and we agree to mass claim, HE SHOULDN"T LIE LIKE THAT.
@Re: why i joined this game: yes, pushing forth the mass claim had part to do with it. And I'm not meaning to suggest the town couldn't win simply by behavioral analysis...but i think this will help. And i think the inefficiency caused by everyone going it alone won't help.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think you are confusing Loran with Cyan. They are not the same.
If the 51% of you start claiming and expect me to go along with it you are out of your mind. If it was 70% of players I would agree with it if it was 60% I would probably go along. But the thing is that it is almost a half and half split. You suggesting this on principle is bad. If you go through with this, then you should be ashamed of yourself.
Honestly this takes the blitzkrieg, that a few of the "more advanced"(In their minds) players use, to a more ridiculous level. Honestly if you try to go through with this idea I will not claim. You can lynch me go for it but I won't claim. If there is a true majority of players that want to claim and I mean by 60%-70% then I will. But if you try to force a claim upon the rest of us then I will have issues with it.
I still see a lot of debate, but I would really like to see everybody give there initial thoughts and then put themselves on the yay/ or nay/ lists. You can change your minds later, but too many people it seems are weighting out some sort of grand revelation before deciding. In fact I will make it easier.
New list:
Yay/
Guardman
Somewhat Yay/
Somewhat Nay/
Nay/
Fill in where you belong on this four answer list.
He who liveth by the sword, I suppose.
Thanks everyone
See you all next game.
And honestly, when it comes to talking about a Day 1 mass-claim, there needs to be a large majority to go along with it. 51% majority is not good enough here.
And personally, I'm opposed to a mass-claim. If anything, I think that a specialty is the WORST time to try a mass-claim, because the games have a ridiculous amount of variance to them. Mass-claims are sometimes okay in minis etc, but I really can't see it benefitting the town here. Too much information has been leaked already due to Loran acting rashly.
Related to that, as rash as he has been, I do think he is town.
Okay, now this is annoying me. I was scum in your last post. Mind explaining?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Clearly that is not the case, and your reaction to everyone else's attitude re: your mass claim idea over the last day or so has been reminiscent of your general town attitude.
Don't see the point of getting everyone to come back and give their opinion again when it's already been given.
Yay/
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
Cyouni (leaning yea)
Nay/
Shibui
Zindabad (?)
AlphaInsidious
DV
Penguin of Death
RafK
Kpaca
Pale Mage
Calvin
Cyan
Syrenz
6 yay
11 nay
6 undecided
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
1. If you actually had passive protection, after going to some trouble to establish yourself as a day roleblocker, it would imply you're scum, hence it WOULD be worth finding out and was worth asking Nom about.
2. If you believe everyone sucks at playing town and we can't even try to play behaviourally, quit joining games. Personally, I believe that towns keep jaing problems BECAUSE they keep trying to play base on claims and not behaviourally, and hey do
much better when they do rely on behaviour. People tend to write off behaviour after one bad read, and go back to claims despite mislynch after mislynch. I think it's because claim evidence is easier to quantify and make "logical" arguments on, people often can't quantify behavioural arguments beyond feelings. But that's the same thing that gets people conned in real life despite bad feelings- too much reliance on "logic" that is actually dependent on a lot of information and assumptions they don't have.
But you're right that I'm a better player as scum than town (although I can't even remember my last scum game, payback for being scum all the time a few years ago I guess). I have no idea if you actually meant me or not, but it's still true of me
Maybe. But I could see mason-gambit boy coming into this one as scum with a new gambit to try, this one to push a day 1 mass claim.
Going to go re-read TFC (as a cover for my early-game hibernation - don't tell Xyre or arimnaes) and then see what's happening in this game.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I dislike the mass claim at this point.
HOWEVER, I can still smell this terrible OMGUS vote. It smells like that hobo who was on the subway that one time. Was like he wet himself a month ago and hadn't showered or changed since
FoxAsh? I don't get it, where does that come from? Is it that hard to memorize?
Acronym Claims. What are they?
This, combined with his behavior, means either loran is very very probably town, or is pulling some huge, weirdo, pre-signup gambit.
How was my vote OMGUS?
I'm just going to call you Æ.
For those that want to join in the "Æ" fun, just hold down alt and press 0198.
I was wondering as well, and caught a glimpse of Loran explaining it in the theory and discussion thread:
Personally I find it much easier to call him Fox-(insert choice of letters here, I usually go with qunaqia)-blahblah.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Acronym claims are against the rules ¬_¬
I never went to any trouble to establish myself as a day roleblocker.
Nom claimed to be day roleblocked.
I made one post faking not knowing how it happened...and then thought better of it and admitted that the result was caused by me.
That said, I've expressly refused to state the mechanics of my block. So if it was a self-protection mechanism, it wouldn't be scummy (unless you thought that type of role was more likely on scum, but i don't see that at all).
Could be. (And to be fair, I was gonna not join this one except i felt like seeing whether the players would accept a mass claim early, how people would react to it, and then see if it would be helpful. I'm theory-testing here. But I like Mafia too much to give it up entirely, even if i do think that some of the newer crop of players is a bit too blech.)
No Comment (Okay, yes i was talking about you. But after RottK and Sin City back to back, I'll always seem to remember you being scum fairly often)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
kpaca specifically says it affects non-kill targeting of him. So he wouldn't scare away a nightkill, but he would run off anyone investigating him. That makes is easier to understand the Day 1 firing, although not the first-post firing.
I'm willing to believe him on his ability. If it wasn't him who did it, then it would have to have been a scumbuddy who was online while the NA/loran interaction was going on, and who loran was able to get to protect him during that discussion. The timestamps on the posts make it far more likely that loran submitted the protection himself (assuming it to be activated and not passive). Occam's Razor and such.
This is a worse idea that kpaca's shot was. You expect a bare majority to take a controversial, harmful action in the hope that the bare minority will follow suit? How the hell does that make sense?
Your actual screen name is harder to memorize than Fhqwhgads' was, and at least I had a guide to pronounce his. I had to shorten it somehow, and since the Æ is referred to as an Ash, there was your name.
On the mass claim: I am restating my /nay. loran's arguments actually have nothing at all to do with this game in particular. He is just stating a theory that Day 1 mass claims, in general, are good. I have definitely seen setups in the past where Day 1 mass claims would have been harmful, so this isn't a universal truth. In this game in particular, I have seen nothing to indicate that outing all our abilities will do anything other than allow the scum to eliminate everyone who could tell that they are lying.
Based on Syrenz' list, that now makes a majority of players opposed. I'd still be interested to hear from the remaining undecided, but it looks like the mass claim proposal has failed.
Well, im talking specialties only, not universally...but that's the gist.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
You say it yourself: because he is "horrible" not "scum"
If that wasn't what you meant, explain your choice of words?
Clearly I've been here a while. Look at the join date....