also, I'm for the mass claim, just because of how tricky my role is.
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And pale mage--I'm not going to not kill someone because you make a single comment telling me not to. I gave loran a fair chance to defend himself, by claiming or giving me an argument convincing enough not to shoot him, and he did in fact defend himself--though not in the way I expected. Being day 1, I thought it was a pretty good way to cut through the fog--force a claim the town couldn't always get.
One thing though. Note the ROLEBLOCKER proposed a mass-claim. This suggests a touch of scummyness to me. A townie can expect mafia to lie about any particularly detrimental abilities, making the mass claim someone less helpful. Scum on the other hand, can expect most townies to claim properly, giving a good roleblock choice. I don't think he's a good choice for today's lynch, but it's definately something to keep in mind for the long run.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
And pale mage--I'm not going to not kill someone because you make a single comment telling me not to. I gave loran a fair chance to defend himself, by claiming or giving me an argument convincing enough not to shoot him, and he did in fact defend himself--though not in the way I expected. Being day 1, I thought it was a pretty good way to cut through the fog--force a claim the town couldn't always get.
I gave you a solid reason not to do that, and I would appreciate from here forward that you don't go rogue on us. Remember Guardman in Sword of Truth? If you're town, then that was you just now (without the benefit of us already having a good bead on your alignment). The other possibility is you're scum wanting to push through a DK and look like an AEZWoLG.
I think your "post action" looks fake.
Here's something to keep in mind for the long run: You just tried to kill a guy without any consensus whatsoever.
@RafK: The items are a problem. But well, if there's an item stealer,
Ah, but we know there is - the mafia kill steals items. And something tells me that's not something we'd be able to play around very well after a mass claim.
Yes, this was accurate in our last game you stated this on me early on Day 1....Fairy Tales, right?
Stop please.
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Opposed to mass claim for the same item-related reasons as others.
Ah, but we know there is - the mafia kill steals items. And something tells me that's not something we'd be able to play around very well after a mass claim.
Ah right, Kills steal items.
Okay, let's amend this then: Full Claim, EXCEPT ITEMS. If one knows of an item that he might gain an ability by gaining it, he claims this, but he doesn't need to specify if he does or doesn't have such item.
If you have an item, claim the ability of the item as if you HAVE that ability on your own pm.
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We stood a better shot at winning TFC if there had been a full claim Day One: Agree or disagree?
disagree. getting sneaks to turn scum by being a bug and not have him get lynched that day would have been impossible, which could have set up a d5 perfect win.
Of course, when I self-destructed so badly that I was accused of leaking who was in the mafia, that kinda made things difficult. But I'd like to think I'm a better player than that now. (Obviously I didn't leak any such information, because if I did Arim would have blacklisted me faster than you can say WIFOM)
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Nom is being way too overzealous, but unless he's colluding with Loran (which seems unlikely to me), I do believe the daykill attempt was real, and really blocked.
I still hate the idea of mass claiming so early. It's not just Day 1, not everyone has checked in!
I suspect a plurality will be against it anyhow, though.
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Nom is being way too overzealous, but unless he's colluding with Loran (which seems unlikely to me), I do believe the daykill attempt was real, and really blocked.
I doubt they are colluding. It seems too far fetched. Especially since I can't see any real reason for them doing it, its not like it confirms wither one of them, all it is doing is drawing attention.
Also I don't like Nom's reasoning behind his actions. I think it is much more likely that Nom is scum and that he got freaked out by the prospect of a mass claim.
As for the item part of the mass claim. Yeah, I think not claiming items is good since with the way they can move around there isn't a lot of point in claiming them.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
Ghost-Town: Claims Cop with two town results under no pressure and with those players under no pressure. Uses one of his inspects on a player who should've been clear by ability had he thought about it. Claims to be part of a useful town group despite no reason to come forward, painting himself as even more of a target.
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Nom, another question. When did you actually put in this daykill? After or in what post?
Curious as to this as well. Read back over the alleged phrase trigger, and it's much kitschier than I remember. I have my own theories as to that, but would like to hear Nom's answer first.
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Pretty sure this just adds one to your post count. Since you won't build a case. Since you never do.
But anyway.
@ Loran the problem is some of the abilities in past games. They are obv. items vs no items.
Not really. If i remember harry potter correctly (an item + regular ability game), the abilities on items included motivating, doc protecting, and role-coping. The only ability that was clearly an item ability was the ability that involved a switch of items.
If we were to do my claim, I think obviously that such items' powers would either be non-revealed or altered in the reveal so as to let the town know what they could do (This player could steal someone's item) without letting them know the ability was item based (This player could steal someone's item: BUT NOT TOLD is that this passes this item to that person: Ala HP's Galleons).
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
Ghost-Town: Claims Cop with two town results under no pressure and with those players under no pressure. Uses one of his inspects on a player who should've been clear by ability had he thought about it. Claims to be part of a useful town group despite no reason to come forward, painting himself as even more of a target.
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
...you might be right there. But that hurts a little.
Nom, another question. When did you actually put in this daykill? After or in what post?
I put it in after he told me he was calling my bluff.
It was the "I'm getting word that loran is scum" part. I wanted to hide it in there to keep people guessing, but at this point, there's no reason to do so.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I doubt they are colluding. It seems too far fetched. Especially since I can't see any real reason for them doing it, its not like it confirms wither one of them, all it is doing is drawing attention.
I agree. That's why I said it seemed unlikely to me.
I put it in after he told me he was calling my bluff.
It was the "I'm getting word that loran is scum" part. I wanted to hide it in there to keep people guessing, but at this point, there's no reason to do so.
Oh. Well, that's not exactly what I expected.
But it makes sense. The 'quote' didn't. Looking at it, that "I'm getting word that X is scum" part does seem out of place. Sounds like radio-ing in a suspicious person to security detail or to be extreme, an air strike.
Since there never actually was a random stage, thanks to Loran, Unvote.
Now then, let's make this mass claim opinion poll somewhat more official.
/yay or /nay.
/yay List.
Loran16
/nay List.
AlphaInsidious
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
-------------------------
@DV- Umm, perhaps but what's the problem there? I strongly doubt the scum will ignore players with abilities that obviously aren't item derived. Nor will they focus on them. They'd instead just target the most powerful player, or the most powerful confirmed-to-town player.
@Penguin, i signed up for the game, not the flavor. If i miss anything game related in the flavor, i hope you'll catch it for me.
And yes indeed, that's the usual reason why people are afraid to mass claim, as it exposes certain power roles (Cop+Doc). And in a Normal Game, this would be clearly a bad thing.
That said, I don't think this problem is that bad here for a couple reasons....one, i expect that there won't be as many straight forward roles like that in this game (so trackers/watchers instead of cops, or multiple cops of unknown sanities). Two, as has already been stated by people, It's expected that there are at least a few hidden mechanics involved with player roles, that we would be able to utilize to the fullest by claiming.
(Examples of such mechanics for example would be roles that depend upon other roles, like the Tribesmen from Ghost Town. Or the Item Specialties from Harry Potter.)
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
hmm, I see what you mean, especially about the unknown mechanic thing, but I still think that it would be beneficial to the town to wait for a night or two, so that any investigative roles have a real reason to claim-as in guilty/innocent investigations.
By that same token, that means a night or two of not taking full advantage of the mechanics of the game.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't see a particular benefit, as said earlier, and down this path is a town focussed on solving the game with actions instead of catching scum through discussion, which practically never works.
Nom Anor fumes in the corner, the two agents standing beside her to make sure she can't wander off again. loran is grabbing at anyone who will wander into his vicinity, demanding to see their ID, and getting mostly dismissive glares. The two agents exchange a glance, then wander out into the main floor to converse briefly.
"What's the word from the outside?" Agent Arvanis asks quietly, watching over Xavier's shoulder toward the conference room.
"They say that they're trying to get some equipment in to begin working on the building, but they've been blocked by the protesters outside." Xavier's hands are trembling ever so slightly, and he sticks them in his pockets. "It seems like they intend to protest through their permit time, even if it hinders the rescue effort." He looks up over Arvanis' shoulder and shouts in surprise. "Stop!" Without pausing to explain, he starts running down a broken corridor. Arvanis follows, cellphone in hand.
At the end of the corridor, a pile of rubble has converged to block all the exits. "What the hell was that, Xavier?" Arvanis asks with a scowl.
Xavier pants slightly. "I thought I saw... somebody else. Must have been a shadow."
Arvanis frowns, leaning his jaw against his cellphone, when a shout emanates from the other end of the building, in the conference room. Arturo glares briefly at Xavier and starts running again, with his partner in pursuit.
When they arrive, the survivors are clustered around Nom Anor's chair. Some are reeling in shock, others look on with stoic acknowledgment, and at least one is in the corner, heaving into her hands. Nom Anor is still seated in her chair, almost serenely, except that her limbs and head are splayed, as if pushed away by an explosion, and her face is a torrent of blood. "Step aside, step aside!" Arvanis shouts, as Xavier, dumbfounded, collapses in a chair. Arvanis quickly removes his suit jacket and starts applying it to the wound while yelling at Xavier to get a pulse. After a moment of fearful recognition, Xavier meekly nods and begins grabbing Nom Anor's neck.
After a few moments of silent effort, the two agents look at each other and shake their heads in unison. "Did anyone see anything happen?" Arvanis shouts, turning to the crowd. More silence.
Xavier removes the pocket square from his jacket and leans down. "Agent Arvanis, you might want to see this." As Arvanis turns, Xavier lifts up an unloaded sawed-off shotgun. "So I guess this means we are in danger after all." Arvanis frowns, and as the twenty-three remaining pairs of eyes converge on him, he turns and walks angrily from the room, leaving Xavier to field questions from the terrified masses alone.
Players
1. AlphaInsidious
2. Calvin
3. Charm_Master3125
4. Cyan
5. Cyouni
6. Deaths_Vampire
7. desCoures
8. Ecophagy
9. Foxlnbpkqgz Æenioouoa
10. Ged
11. Guardman
12. Jobie
13. kpaca
14. loran16
15. mystery meat of doom
16. Pale Mage
17. Penguin of Death
18. RafaelK
19. RobRoy
20. shibui
21. Syrenz
22. Zionite
23. zindabad
Dead
1. Nom Anor - Identity unknown (Pro-WTO) - Shot with a sawed-off shotgun Day 1
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Alright, before anyone does anything stupid, I need to say this.
NO ONE is to vig kpaca, today, tonight, or any other time unless I get a note from the mod. I can't say any more specifics than that except that my role depends on him not eating a bullet.
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/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
RobRoy
The shotgun is apparently what allowed kpaca's kill on Nom Anor, so we have significantly powerful items floating around. We can't claim those without a large amount of risk, and without them we don't have any way of confirming people's abilities for sure.
Also, anyone who chimes in should state their reasons for being yay or nay instead of just voting. Charm, Jobie, this means you.
We stood a better shot at winning TFC if there had been a full claim Day One: Agree or disagree?
Hmm. It's really hard to say. You had a good first couple days, and I helped you out by shooting several townies. You did run out of trees to hide behind eventually, though. Maybe with better knowledge you'd have been able to eliminate those whose abilities could be used to clear themselves, though? I don't really know.
On loran/NA: I don't see how loran could have played this differently given NA's actions. Thus loran's ability is confirmed, but it says nothing about his alignment.
On kpaca/NA: I feel slightly better about kpaca based on his willingness to claim the kill in-thread (assuming that wasn't another post-based action). I still would have preferred a little more discussion, first, though. Nom Anor had been blocked. What was the problem with allowing him to talk for a while before offing him?
I'm for the mass claim because of the amount of information we have in the open will let the town sift through things much more efficiently. It locks the scum into claiming roles that either are fake, damning, or will be found out eventually.
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I'm for the mass claim because of the amount of information we have in the open will let the town sift through things much more efficiently. It locks the scum into claiming roles that either are fake, damning, or will be found out eventually.
Indeed. We found this out during the games before acronym claims were banned. It's just that powerful.
And the revealing of hidden mechanics and efficient info sharing also outweighs the downsides.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
After Loran's game, we talked on AIM about the mafia theory behind mass claiming in a specialty-type game. I agreed with the logic and I still support it.
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Indeed. We found this out during the games before acronym claims were banned. It's just that powerful.
Acronym claims are a significantly different beast. They are broken wide open because they allow you to, effectively, make your role confirmable without actually exposing your role at the time of the claim. Any talk about them will not be relevant in the current discussion.
And the revealing of hidden mechanics and efficient info sharing also outweighs the downsides.
It might just be that my last two games were Azrael joints, but I am dubious about this. I don't think anyone ever lied about their abilities in Inheritance (maybe desCoures?) and it didn't help the town. Admittedly, that was a special case - fully randomized role distribution - but I'm not convinced that knowing everyone's abilities in this game will do anything other than allow the scum to guide their kills more effectively.
Acronym claims are a significantly different beast. They are broken wide open because they allow you to, effectively, make your role confirmable without actually exposing your role at the time of the claim. Any talk about them will not be relevant in the current discussion.
Well no, there are three aspects of them:
1. Potentially make yourself confirmable (fine not relevant)
2. Lock the scum in (THIS IS THE KEY ONE)
3. Don't have to expose yourself.
Now #3 doesn't work. But #2 was why we as scum in HP campaigned via pm for their banning...it basically forced the scum to falseclaim on day 1 without any other info, which well really hurt. Now yes, here some scum will false claim after town players have posted, but others will not and it hurts to not be able to change your claim to circumstance. Badly.
It might just be that my last two games were Azrael joints, but I am dubious about this. I don't think anyone ever lied about their abilities in Inheritance (maybe desCoures?) and it didn't help the town. Admittedly, that was a special case - fully randomized role distribution - but I'm not convinced that knowing everyone's abilities in this game will do anything other than allow the scum to guide their kills more effectively.
First the fully randomized role distribution matters as a distinction, but really not that much. Part of the reason the town lost in inheritance, aside from me targetting a fellow scum with a steal ability, was that they spent a bajillion posts being confused about the setup.
This allowed the scum to take advantage of discourse, and the town couldn't take advantage of the mechanics (for example, them switching the mafia kill to night didn't really do anything except help us....but it dominated the discussion because of unknowns.)
I think if everyone's roles were out early, the town would've been more focused and the scum would have had a lot more problems. The town would've understood the danger/benefit of Ash; the town might've used the items to assemble the Juggernaut (that was never revealed, so i don't know if they would have, but that's beside the point).
It would've helped imo. (Harry Potter is another case where it would've helped, by getting items into true owner's positions, but well, the town should've won that game solely on acronym basis).
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Well no, there are three aspects of them:
1. Potentially make yourself confirmable (fine not relevant)
2. Lock the scum in (THIS IS THE KEY ONE)
3. Don't have to expose yourself.
Now #3 doesn't work. But #2 was why we as scum in HP campaigned via pm for their banning...it basically forced the scum to falseclaim on day 1 without any other info, which well really hurt. Now yes, here some scum will false claim after town players have posted, but others will not and it hurts to not be able to change your claim to circumstance. Badly.
#2 is still true on a full Day 1 claim, though. That has not been banned, only acronym claims. Therefore your comments about acronym claims are either misleading or useless. Your point should stand or fall without any reliance on them.
First the fully randomized role distribution matters as a distinction, but really not that much. Part of the reason the town lost in inheritance, aside from me targetting a fellow scum with a steal ability, was that they spent a bajillion posts being confused about the setup.
This allowed the scum to take advantage of discourse, and the town couldn't take advantage of the mechanics (for example, them switching the mafia kill to night didn't really do anything except help us....but it dominated the discussion because of unknowns.)
I think if everyone's roles were out early, the town would've been more focused and the scum would have had a lot more problems. The town would've understood the danger/benefit of Ash; the town might've used the items to assemble the Juggernaut (that was never revealed, so i don't know if they would have, but that's beside the point).
It would've helped imo. (Harry Potter is another case where it would've helped, by getting items into true owner's positions, but well, the town should've won that game solely on acronym basis).
Day 1 mass claim wouldn't have worked in Inheritance for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the inheritances. I was just mentioning it as a reason why I'm leery of them in this game.
After more thought, though - the fact that people will not be claiming items isn't actually as big a problem as I'd thought originally. Since charge-based items are discarded after use, anytime anyone claims that an ability came from an item, it should either be obvious (the item is now on the ground) or repeatable (the item does not have charges or is not yet out of charges). Thus the claim can be tested the next period as well.
Hmm. This isn't enough to change my vote to a Yay, but I'm going to remove my Nay vote while I consider further.
/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
#2 is still true on a full Day 1 claim, though. That has not been banned, only acronym claims. Therefore your comments about acronym claims are either misleading or useless. Your point should stand or fall without any reliance on them.
Err how so? I'm confused, #2 was that we lock in the scum to claims. This is true on both acronym and full claims. That was my point as additional support for the claim.
Day 1 mass claim wouldn't have worked in Inheritance for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the inheritances. I was just mentioning it as a reason why I'm leery of them in this game.
After more thought, though - the fact that people will not be claiming items isn't actually as big a problem as I'd thought originally. Since charge-based items are discarded after use, anytime anyone claims that an ability came from an item, it should either be obvious (the item is now on the ground) or repeatable (the item does not have charges or is not yet out of charges). Thus the claim can be tested the next period as well.
Hmm. This isn't enough to change my vote to a Yay, but I'm going to remove my Nay vote while I consider further.
/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
Indeed.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Well no, there are three aspects of them:
1. Potentially make yourself confirmable (fine not relevant)
2. Lock the scum in (THIS IS THE KEY ONE)
3. Don't have to expose yourself.
I think the key here is not 2 but rather 3. The reason mass claims in general are an item of much debate is that you give the scum a lot of information - potentially all of the information in the game. That's the disadvantage, and the lack of it is what makes acronym claims busted.
The coordination gained by a mass claim and locking scum into false claims early are the advantages. It's just whether you think those outweigh giving the scum everyone's role on day 1.
Hm. I think a mass claim is fine from my PoV (scum knowing about my role isn't particularly detrimental, but being able to get input on using it is good), but I don't know about the overall implications for the town as a whole.
Also, should we claim, would we be claiming real & roles name, flavour and the works? I know in TFC some people needed to find specific players, and there may be similar mechanics, but it seems a way to limit the mafia's knowledge without damaging the town (at the very least).
Also, should we claim, would we be claiming real & roles name, flavour and the works? I know in TFC some people needed to find specific players, and there may be similar mechanics, but it seems a way to limit the mafia's knowledge without damaging the town (at the very least).
Is the implication here that we should just claim mechanics?
So mad with kpaca right now. Couldn't even wait for Nom to answer some simple questions and if nothing else help pin down loran a bit more (the point of my question to Nom, which he can no longer frigging answer, was to work out when loran could have roleblocked. Given the info we have on timestamp order, if loran used a roleblock it had to be before Nom launched. So if Nom attacked Loran when he first posted he did, something else must be up, like a passive kill protection system, which has very different implications. And now there's no way to tell. So thanks a lot to kpaca.
I also note that if Nom's kill was item-based, kpaca now has the item. I don't think I like that even if kpaca is town.
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Yes. It goes to substantiating both loran and Nom's stories of what just happened there and providing a detail that will need to match up later.
I also don't see any reason why not, or why you may be vaguely implying this is a fish.
It's a Xyre game. best make it 2.
also, I'm for the mass claim, just because of how tricky my role is.
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Please forgive me. I didn't mean to be vague. Fishing.
I'm interested in why from Nom, but not what.
I've pre-ordered a new liver.
Really? Just wanna toss it out there?
We stood a better shot at winning TFC if there had been a full claim Day One: Agree or disagree?
And pale mage--I'm not going to not kill someone because you make a single comment telling me not to. I gave loran a fair chance to defend himself, by claiming or giving me an argument convincing enough not to shoot him, and he did in fact defend himself--though not in the way I expected. Being day 1, I thought it was a pretty good way to cut through the fog--force a claim the town couldn't always get.
One thing though. Note the ROLEBLOCKER proposed a mass-claim. This suggests a touch of scummyness to me. A townie can expect mafia to lie about any particularly detrimental abilities, making the mass claim someone less helpful. Scum on the other hand, can expect most townies to claim properly, giving a good roleblock choice. I don't think he's a good choice for today's lynch, but it's definately something to keep in mind for the long run.
But anyway.
I gave you a solid reason not to do that, and I would appreciate from here forward that you don't go rogue on us. Remember Guardman in Sword of Truth? If you're town, then that was you just now (without the benefit of us already having a good bead on your alignment). The other possibility is you're scum wanting to push through a DK and look like an AEZWoLG.
I think your "post action" looks fake.
Here's something to keep in mind for the long run: You just tried to kill a guy without any consensus whatsoever.
Opposed to mass claim for the same item-related reasons as others.
Ah, but we know there is - the mafia kill steals items. And something tells me that's not something we'd be able to play around very well after a mass claim.
There's a thought. Kinda like Loran so far, though.
Yes, this was accurate in our last game you stated this on me early on Day 1....Fairy Tales, right?
Stop please.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Ah right, Kills steal items.
Okay, let's amend this then: Full Claim, EXCEPT ITEMS. If one knows of an item that he might gain an ability by gaining it, he claims this, but he doesn't need to specify if he does or doesn't have such item.
If you have an item, claim the ability of the item as if you HAVE that ability on your own pm.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
disagree. getting sneaks to turn scum by being a bug and not have him get lynched that day would have been impossible, which could have set up a d5 perfect win.
Of course, when I self-destructed so badly that I was accused of leaking who was in the mafia, that kinda made things difficult. But I'd like to think I'm a better player than that now. (Obviously I didn't leak any such information, because if I did Arim would have blacklisted me faster than you can say WIFOM)
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I still hate the idea of mass claiming so early. It's not just Day 1, not everyone has checked in!
I suspect a plurality will be against it anyhow, though.
I doubt they are colluding. It seems too far fetched. Especially since I can't see any real reason for them doing it, its not like it confirms wither one of them, all it is doing is drawing attention.
Also I don't like Nom's reasoning behind his actions. I think it is much more likely that Nom is scum and that he got freaked out by the prospect of a mass claim.
As for the item part of the mass claim. Yeah, I think not claiming items is good since with the way they can move around there isn't a lot of point in claiming them.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
Ghost-Town: Claims Cop with two town results under no pressure and with those players under no pressure. Uses one of his inspects on a player who should've been clear by ability had he thought about it. Claims to be part of a useful town group despite no reason to come forward, painting himself as even more of a target.
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Nom, another question. When did you actually put in this daykill? After or in what post?
Curious as to this as well. Read back over the alleged phrase trigger, and it's much kitschier than I remember. I have my own theories as to that, but would like to hear Nom's answer first.
Pretty sure this just adds one to your post count. Since you won't build a case. Since you never do.
But anyway.
@ Loran the problem is some of the abilities in past games. They are obv. items vs no items.
Not really. If i remember harry potter correctly (an item + regular ability game), the abilities on items included motivating, doc protecting, and role-coping. The only ability that was clearly an item ability was the ability that involved a switch of items.
If we were to do my claim, I think obviously that such items' powers would either be non-revealed or altered in the reveal so as to let the town know what they could do (This player could steal someone's item) without letting them know the ability was item based (This player could steal someone's item: BUT NOT TOLD is that this passes this item to that person: Ala HP's Galleons).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
...you might be right there. But that hurts a little.
I put it in after he told me he was calling my bluff.
It was the "I'm getting word that loran is scum" part. I wanted to hide it in there to keep people guessing, but at this point, there's no reason to do so.
I agree. That's why I said it seemed unlikely to me.
Oh. Well, that's not exactly what I expected.
But it makes sense. The 'quote' didn't. Looking at it, that "I'm getting word that X is scum" part does seem out of place. Sounds like radio-ing in a suspicious person to security detail or to be extreme, an air strike.
Since there never actually was a random stage, thanks to Loran, Unvote.
Now then, let's make this mass claim opinion poll somewhat more official.
/yay or /nay.
/yay List.
Loran16
/nay List.
AlphaInsidious
That is a horrible reason. Vote stands.
I'll add myself to the list.
/yay or /nay.
/yay List.
Loran16
Guardman
/nay List.
AlphaInsidious
Loran16
Guardman
/nay List.
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
....Please tell me this isn't a daykill joke.
-------------------------
@DV- Umm, perhaps but what's the problem there? I strongly doubt the scum will ignore players with abilities that obviously aren't item derived. Nor will they focus on them. They'd instead just target the most powerful player, or the most powerful confirmed-to-town player.
@Penguin, i signed up for the game, not the flavor. If i miss anything game related in the flavor, i hope you'll catch it for me.
And yes indeed, that's the usual reason why people are afraid to mass claim, as it exposes certain power roles (Cop+Doc). And in a Normal Game, this would be clearly a bad thing.
That said, I don't think this problem is that bad here for a couple reasons....one, i expect that there won't be as many straight forward roles like that in this game (so trackers/watchers instead of cops, or multiple cops of unknown sanities). Two, as has already been stated by people, It's expected that there are at least a few hidden mechanics involved with player roles, that we would be able to utilize to the fullest by claiming.
(Examples of such mechanics for example would be roles that depend upon other roles, like the Tribesmen from Ghost Town. Or the Item Specialties from Harry Potter.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
By that same token, that means a night or two of not taking full advantage of the mechanics of the game.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
I don't see a particular benefit, as said earlier, and down this path is a town focussed on solving the game with actions instead of catching scum through discussion, which practically never works.
"What's the word from the outside?" Agent Arvanis asks quietly, watching over Xavier's shoulder toward the conference room.
"They say that they're trying to get some equipment in to begin working on the building, but they've been blocked by the protesters outside." Xavier's hands are trembling ever so slightly, and he sticks them in his pockets. "It seems like they intend to protest through their permit time, even if it hinders the rescue effort." He looks up over Arvanis' shoulder and shouts in surprise. "Stop!" Without pausing to explain, he starts running down a broken corridor. Arvanis follows, cellphone in hand.
At the end of the corridor, a pile of rubble has converged to block all the exits. "What the hell was that, Xavier?" Arvanis asks with a scowl.
Xavier pants slightly. "I thought I saw... somebody else. Must have been a shadow."
Arvanis frowns, leaning his jaw against his cellphone, when a shout emanates from the other end of the building, in the conference room. Arturo glares briefly at Xavier and starts running again, with his partner in pursuit.
When they arrive, the survivors are clustered around Nom Anor's chair. Some are reeling in shock, others look on with stoic acknowledgment, and at least one is in the corner, heaving into her hands. Nom Anor is still seated in her chair, almost serenely, except that her limbs and head are splayed, as if pushed away by an explosion, and her face is a torrent of blood. "Step aside, step aside!" Arvanis shouts, as Xavier, dumbfounded, collapses in a chair. Arvanis quickly removes his suit jacket and starts applying it to the wound while yelling at Xavier to get a pulse. After a moment of fearful recognition, Xavier meekly nods and begins grabbing Nom Anor's neck.
After a few moments of silent effort, the two agents look at each other and shake their heads in unison. "Did anyone see anything happen?" Arvanis shouts, turning to the crowd. More silence.
Xavier removes the pocket square from his jacket and leans down. "Agent Arvanis, you might want to see this." As Arvanis turns, Xavier lifts up an unloaded sawed-off shotgun. "So I guess this means we are in danger after all." Arvanis frowns, and as the twenty-three remaining pairs of eyes converge on him, he turns and walks angrily from the room, leaving Xavier to field questions from the terrified masses alone.
Players
1. AlphaInsidious
2. Calvin
3. Charm_Master3125
4. Cyan
5. Cyouni
6. Deaths_Vampire
7. desCoures
8. Ecophagy
9. Foxlnbpkqgz Æenioouoa
10. Ged
11. Guardman
12. Jobie
13. kpaca
14. loran16
15. mystery meat of doom
16. Pale Mage
17. Penguin of Death
18. RafaelK
19. RobRoy
20. shibui
21. Syrenz
22. Zionite
23. zindabad
Dead
1. Nom Anor - Identity unknown (Pro-WTO) - Shot with a sawed-off shotgun Day 1
Discard Pile
Sawed-Off Shotgun
Votes have been reset. Continue
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I haven't read the massive opening post. I like the flavor except it slows me down. I don't have time to read it now.
I just read this and it confused the hell out of me. I'm going to do some more work and then try to figure it out by rereading.
Adding to the list of yay/nay votes:
/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
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/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
I missed the daykill party. Too bad Nom is dead, Loranscum's head rolling off is always fun.
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I have not yet decided on the mass claim: it's a tricky issue.
Why?
*downgrades kpaca to inferior player.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
NO ONE is to vig kpaca, today, tonight, or any other time unless I get a note from the mod. I can't say any more specifics than that except that my role depends on him not eating a bullet.
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Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
RobRoy
The shotgun is apparently what allowed kpaca's kill on Nom Anor, so we have significantly powerful items floating around. We can't claim those without a large amount of risk, and without them we don't have any way of confirming people's abilities for sure.
Also, anyone who chimes in should state their reasons for being yay or nay instead of just voting. Charm, Jobie, this means you.
Not really sure what you're doing in this game.
I've mentally abbreviated him as FoxAsh, and will be referring to him as such. I recommend this to others as well.
Hmm. It's really hard to say. You had a good first couple days, and I helped you out by shooting several townies. You did run out of trees to hide behind eventually, though. Maybe with better knowledge you'd have been able to eliminate those whose abilities could be used to clear themselves, though? I don't really know.
On loran/NA: I don't see how loran could have played this differently given NA's actions. Thus loran's ability is confirmed, but it says nothing about his alignment.
On kpaca/NA: I feel slightly better about kpaca based on his willingness to claim the kill in-thread (assuming that wasn't another post-based action). I still would have preferred a little more discussion, first, though. Nom Anor had been blocked. What was the problem with allowing him to talk for a while before offing him?
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Indeed. We found this out during the games before acronym claims were banned. It's just that powerful.
And the revealing of hidden mechanics and efficient info sharing also outweighs the downsides.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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Acronym claims are a significantly different beast. They are broken wide open because they allow you to, effectively, make your role confirmable without actually exposing your role at the time of the claim. Any talk about them will not be relevant in the current discussion.
It might just be that my last two games were Azrael joints, but I am dubious about this. I don't think anyone ever lied about their abilities in Inheritance (maybe desCoures?) and it didn't help the town. Admittedly, that was a special case - fully randomized role distribution - but I'm not convinced that knowing everyone's abilities in this game will do anything other than allow the scum to guide their kills more effectively.
Well no, there are three aspects of them:
1. Potentially make yourself confirmable (fine not relevant)
2. Lock the scum in (THIS IS THE KEY ONE)
3. Don't have to expose yourself.
Now #3 doesn't work. But #2 was why we as scum in HP campaigned via pm for their banning...it basically forced the scum to falseclaim on day 1 without any other info, which well really hurt. Now yes, here some scum will false claim after town players have posted, but others will not and it hurts to not be able to change your claim to circumstance. Badly.
First the fully randomized role distribution matters as a distinction, but really not that much. Part of the reason the town lost in inheritance, aside from me targetting a fellow scum with a steal ability, was that they spent a bajillion posts being confused about the setup.
This allowed the scum to take advantage of discourse, and the town couldn't take advantage of the mechanics (for example, them switching the mafia kill to night didn't really do anything except help us....but it dominated the discussion because of unknowns.)
I think if everyone's roles were out early, the town would've been more focused and the scum would have had a lot more problems. The town would've understood the danger/benefit of Ash; the town might've used the items to assemble the Juggernaut (that was never revealed, so i don't know if they would have, but that's beside the point).
It would've helped imo. (Harry Potter is another case where it would've helped, by getting items into true owner's positions, but well, the town should've won that game solely on acronym basis).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
#2 is still true on a full Day 1 claim, though. That has not been banned, only acronym claims. Therefore your comments about acronym claims are either misleading or useless. Your point should stand or fall without any reliance on them.
Day 1 mass claim wouldn't have worked in Inheritance for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the inheritances. I was just mentioning it as a reason why I'm leery of them in this game.
After more thought, though - the fact that people will not be claiming items isn't actually as big a problem as I'd thought originally. Since charge-based items are discarded after use, anytime anyone claims that an ability came from an item, it should either be obvious (the item is now on the ground) or repeatable (the item does not have charges or is not yet out of charges). Thus the claim can be tested the next period as well.
Hmm. This isn't enough to change my vote to a Yay, but I'm going to remove my Nay vote while I consider further.
/yay
Loran
Guardman
Ged
Charm
Jobie
/nay
AlphaInsidious
Deaths_Vampire
Penguin of Death
RafK
Err how so? I'm confused, #2 was that we lock in the scum to claims. This is true on both acronym and full claims. That was my point as additional support for the claim.
Indeed.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think the key here is not 2 but rather 3. The reason mass claims in general are an item of much debate is that you give the scum a lot of information - potentially all of the information in the game. That's the disadvantage, and the lack of it is what makes acronym claims busted.
The coordination gained by a mass claim and locking scum into false claims early are the advantages. It's just whether you think those outweigh giving the scum everyone's role on day 1.
Also, should we claim, would we be claiming real & roles name, flavour and the works? I know in TFC some people needed to find specific players, and there may be similar mechanics, but it seems a way to limit the mafia's knowledge without damaging the town (at the very least).
Is the implication here that we should just claim mechanics?
I also note that if Nom's kill was item-based, kpaca now has the item. I don't think I like that even if kpaca is town.