blargh. My internets at my new place will be set up on tuesday - so I should have a post containing substance up sometime during then. Really sorry for the massive lurking guys, I thought the ISP would be quicker about hooking us up than they have been.
blargh. My internets at my new place will be set up on tuesday - so I should have a post containing substance up sometime during then. Really sorry for the massive lurking guys, I thought the ISP would be quicker about hooking us up than they have been.
It seems pretty obvious to me that he was a gimmick account. His random posts accurately identified Cyouni as scum and AK, Calvin, and TB as town (of course he was wrong about Killerhamster). Those could have been lucky guesses, I suppose, but he seemed pretty confident (and accurate).
Ok, well, it appears I've gotten myself in deep with what I thought was an insightful parry of an attack, so here's an analysis of the posts in question, in order:
Your original post. You start off with a deliberate slur/misspelling of my name, which, while I'm used to it after a few games with kpaca, seems designed to irritate/annoy/throw me off the logical track and put me on an emotional tact. It felt like an attack right out of the box.
We have never played in a game before, right? If I misspelled your name it was purely unintentional. I do in fact read your name as Catnipmancer and have to force myself to read it as Cantripmancer so if I misspelled it and it offended you I apologize.
I also rarely use ad hom attacks, exceptions are out there but they are few and far between.
You then mention my dislike of your fencesitting (which I still feel it was, btw), and "counter" with your question. When I first read it, I thought you were using it as your defense to fencesitting. Since you hadn't been casting your vote about, I figured that "B" was another player that you were trying to compare yourself favorably to, and that "A" was you. I read through your earlier posts, trying to find the question you asked that you already knew the answer to, and couldn't figure it out. I then turned my attention to what you were asking and realized that neither action, taken out of context, was particularly scummy.
You and me are not invovled in anyway in my hypothetical. I bet you can guess who I am referring too if you just focus on that alone.
I feared that you were waiting for me to answer one or the other (not really caring which), at which point you'd point out either how you exemplified the less scummy or how I exemplified the more scummy. It felt like a trick question, designed to paint you as town either way.
, and Toastboy in post #150 said it seemed like a trap question to get someone to give a bad answer, so I don't feel that my response was all that unusual. Moving on:
If you take into account the reasoning that I went through, outlined above, I came to the conclusion that you were being sneaky and scummy. I honestly thought that others would feel the same; the fact that more seasoned vets than there can be scum have dismissed your question as innocent obviously makes me question my outcome.
Not really, I think people are split except for kpaca who thinks we're running a scum gambit
The bolded part still felt like lacing the trap with sugar. "I'm not talking about you, catnipmancer...it's no one in particular." I still felt that you would turn around and declare your innocence based on my response. I both explained how I felt it was loaded and addressed both, below:
I still feel that your post in #101 is questionable and borderline speculation. You still haven't answered my question, btw: Why do you think it unlikely that there are no actions or day investigations?
I still felt at this point that I was responding appropriately by not falling into your trap.
You clarified your question, and I felt like I answered it below. I understand why you find the delay suspicious, but remember that I was suspicious of you already when you started this volley, so I was proceding with caution.
I still don't see where you're going, but I'm sufficiently convinced that you care, and more than I would expect scum to.
So my question was "Are you asserting that I'm using that blanket statement to vote you?", and you respond with "No, you're voting me with a blanket statement."? What?
I'm sufficiently confused. I'm not unvoting you, at least not yet, because I still have suspicions. But I'm a lot less sure than when I started.
...
No you are using a blanket statement to keep your vote on me, and soon people will jump on the wagon with the same blanket statement.
So if it's not you and me who am I talking about in my hypothetical?
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
@Cantripmancer, I'm going to stop myself from anwering your post besides the points at me, mainly because i have just done a pbpa in another game and a largish pst here.
Oh yeah, i will respond to your post, later, maybe tonight.
So I'm right, you are ignoring newb town tells in favour of newb scum tells.
But, he is making an effort to defend himself and make his posting more legible. he is also trying to find scum, if being jumpy and not throrough about is: he has had reasons for his votes.
Is attacking scummy things scummy now?
He seems to be swayed as soon as he sees something scummy to vote. Attacking scummy things isn't scummy, but when you move your vote from one person to another over little scummy things then yes it is. He has been moving from one person to the next.
it's something I remember from playing with you before. I could be wrong.
On average I am in the middle between those that are super aggressive and those that are super cautious with their vote.
This Infinis and Cantrip thing is making my head hurt, mostly due to Infinis logic. But that isn't surprising since I usually can't understand Infinis' logic to begin with most of the time. Right now I think Cantrip and Infinis are two towns fighting it out.
I am also disturbed by Cyan's lax attitude. He doesn't even really seem to be trying and has only really pointed towards kpaca as scum, despite the fact he hasn't really said anything about it other than he is looking it over. I would like to see more out of him before I make my final decision but he is moving towards the scum list.
both guardman, tl, and infis have played with me in at least one game though for guardman that game is ongoing. seeing as we know everything in it though i see no reason to have it be a bad thing to discuss.
Just popped on to say that I'll likely not be around the rest of today or tomorrow. Meant to post this yesterday, but forgot. Current prevailing thought: I wanna know what's going on in Cyan's head.
Who is that and what would me being him actually mean?
Malcolm was someone's gimmick account in Basic #10. They basically declared people scum/town without backing it up when pressed for reasons and ultimately replaced out due to low activity.
My comment was only partially serious - I doubt you are Malcolm because it seems kind of pointless to make a gimmick so close to your own playstyle and you also don't really strike me as ther type to make a gimmick. I was noting the similiarites between your playstyle and his and how both are slighlty frusturating.
blargh. My internets at my new place will be set up on tuesday - so I should have a post containing substance up sometime during then. Really sorry for the massive lurking guys, I thought the ISP would be quicker about hooking us up than they have been.
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This Infinis and Cantrip thing is making my head hurt, mostly due to Infinis logic. But that isn't surprising since I usually can't understand Infinis' logic to begin with most of the time. Right now I think Cantrip and Infinis are two towns fighting it out.
Pretty much how I feel as well. Although, Cantrip has been poking at pretty much anything that is pokable. Could just be a very analytical townie though.
You seem more withdrawn, less opinions and analysis, just a bit shifty compared to basic #10 where you were so clearly town from the very off.
OK. I'm not sure how to respond to this as I'm pretty sure my play here is no different then there.
What's that supposed to mean?
You apparently only find the 2 low-posters scummy, which just strikes me as easy suspicion that 1) gets you out of commenting on current wagons and 2) allows to change your suspicion on those 2 quickly.
Coincidental. Again, you can look at it that way that I'm only hunting lurkers for the reasons you stated or you can actually realize that I'm looking at their playstyles and seeing oddities compared to their normal play.
Besides, I haven't been avoiding commenting on any wagons and my opinion on Cyan will not change based on off he suddenly starts posting after being called out on it; only if it actually turns out that this his normal townie play in a mini.
What games have you played in them with?
What relevance does this question have?
I've been in Basic #10, Sword of Truth, Lord of the Rings II and this.
he has a bad internet connection, how is that scummy?
And I was supposed to know that because....?
I'm not sure what prompted you to ask this question. Simple common sense would show that I commented on WoD before he revealed that the reason he wasn't around was because of a bad internet connection.
Has anyone played with jordman before?
Yes in Sword of Truth. I'll reserve commenting on it until it is fully finished (although it seems to be almost done).
@CYAN: Can you point me to a mini that you feel you played the same way as here? I don't feel like reading the first 30 pages of 5 different games.
Can someone else have a glance at basic #10 and see if they agree with me?
I read up to the KH wagon and stopped. Why? Because Calvin came off strongly as a site veteran and yet that was his first or second game here. I'll continue the read when I have more leisure to do so.
So you have no actual behavioural analysis to offer, only meta?
I want to know where you get this knowledge of WoD and Cyan from. Are they in any of these games?
WoD is a chronic lurker. He replaced out once if not twice from games I've been in.
I've never played in a mini with Cyan, so I can't speak to that. But Cyan not blitzrieging anyone and then apologizing for not posting are two striking issues from what I've experienced. Does that make him scum? Not unitl we get a couple of substantial posts from him.
I'm pretty sure Kraj posted something to that effect...
The fact is, you leapt at the opportunity to persecuted him that could have been down to any number of things unconnected to the game.
Expound please
And I've not forgotten about Cantripmancer and our issue. Also of note is the confusion I've caused Guardman and undoubtably others.
Ill break it down.
Look at the original Hypothetical I proposed.
Do you see or can you conceive of any in thread posts/situations that I could've shoe horned us into the Hypothetical to make me seem Town and/or him Scum?
Cantrip said he didnt answer directly because of this reason, If was asking a loaded question. And I don't blame him for not answering if he thought it was a loaded question. But I ask you this, how did I say he or I were involved in the scenarios presented?
I suggested that a townie would have no problem answering a Hypothetical since he's Town what threat could he feel from a Theoretical? At worse I am scum trying to get a townie lynched. At best I'm one townie asking another for his help to further the lynching of scum. If he thought I was scum why not answer and then see where I went with it and then attack the premise?
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
And I've not forgotten about Cantripmancer and our issue.Also of note is the confusion I've caused Guardman and undoubtably others.
Ill break it down.
Look at the original Hypothetical I proposed.
Do you see or can you conceive of any in thread posts/situations that I could've shoe horned us into the Hypothetical to make me seem Town and/or him Scum?
Cantrip said he didnt answer directly because of this reason, If was asking a loaded question. And I don't blame him for not answering if he thought it was a loaded question. But I ask you this, how did I say he or I were involved in the scenarios presented?
I suggested that a townie would have no problem answering a Hypothetical since he's Town what threat could he feel from a Theoretical? At worse I am scum trying to get a townie lynched. At best I'm one townie asking another for his help to further the lynching of scum. If he thought I was scum why not answer and then see where I went with it and then attack the premise?
Which of those questions do you actually want me to respond to, and which were meant for someone other than me? Because I feel like I've answered many of them.
Everyone go read Janus, and then vote Cyan afterwards. And Cyan don't give me some whining about how you replaced into your scum role that game, it's not a valid defense.
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Man, people chill on Calvin. He stated he wanted to know what was up with WoD BEFORE WoD posted his internet issues. You're chastising him like he should have known that. As soon as he saw it, he said ok.
Everyone go read Janus, and then vote Cyan afterwards. And Cyan don't give me some whining about how you replaced into your scum role that game, it's not a valid defense.
I read most the posts in that game, and I do see the similarities, but I hesitate to start a wagon based solely on play similarity. Of course, he also feels like he's lurking, and I hates the lurk. I'm really not getting a good feeling from his lack of content.
Man, people chill on Calvin. He stated he wanted to know what was up with WoD BEFORE WoD posted his internet issues. You're chastising him like he should have known that. As soon as he saw it, he said ok.
If he had been reading the thread, he would have seen Kraj post in #148 that WoD was suffering connection issues. But he apparently skipped over that and posted anti-WoD sentiment in #154 and #169. What's interesting is that #148 is a vote count, which I tend to read, since it often provides a larger picture of the game state, but Calvin obviously did not. What I find a little more interesting atm is your defense of him, in spite of both Toastboy and I indicating that there was knowledge of the issue prior to Calvin's continued objections.
Everyone go read Janus, and then vote Cyan afterwards. And Cyan don't give me some whining about how you replaced into your scum role that game, it's not a valid defense.
Nice pre-emptive OMGUS vote.
How about Superhero, where I was A)scum but B)incredibly active?
How about Superhero, where I was A)scum but B)incredibly active?
Good metagame argument you have going there.
And yet, it's not the activity of your posts this game that seems off, it's the content, which, as you prove here, is still lacking. Combined with an odd absence of scumhunting/fingerpointing, which runs counter to what I've observed to be your norm, I think there is cause for concern.
Ok, well, I didn't notice that he'd posted things since Kraj posted that, but as you said he could have missed it. I'm sure not everyone reads everything in the vote count posts. (I do, btw).
I'm referring to the fact that he's already been made aware of it and he's waiting patiently. I'm just saying I don't think it's a scumtell, not really trying to protect him.
...Kraj said so in #148.
Geez, what is it with games I'm playing and players getting the boot? Last game it was AI for his indecent exposure in signature.
Which of those questions do you actually want me to respond to, and which were meant for someone other than me? Because I feel like I've answered many of them.
You have. I'm just clarifying for guardman...and Unvote. Downgraded to IGMEOY
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Cyan has had plenty of opportunities to post and has continued to post with no content. For that reason, I see where everyone is coming from. Do I think it's enough to vote for him? No, but it does warrant an IGMEOY.
Calvin, please give it to me I'd like to see that for myself.
Am I incorrect in my thinking that this is a slightly scummy statement? In reviewing, I haven't noticed anyone else specifically ask to be given the item, and it seems like he may be scum fishing to have that awesome item.
Also, he still hasn't answered the questions that have been asked of him several times by several different people, and I just noticed that, until today, he hadn't posted in 6 days.
@TeknoLink: Please answer the questions that were asked of you by Toastboy and Calvin, I believe.
Now you can analyze my wagon and figure out who was genuine in their attitude and who was not.
Like, you know, Kpaca.
Aw, carp. Well, unvote Cyan. Why would you change your style so drastically AND be so light on posting if you're the doctor? You're practically begging to be analyzed.
Am I incorrect in my thinking that this is a slightly scummy statement? In reviewing, I haven't noticed anyone else specifically ask to be given the item, and it seems like he may be scum fishing to have that awesome item.
I think I assumed that he was joking; it was all of 18 posts into the game and he smilied...but you're right that he's avoided answering questions.
Not sure I like how easily you've moved onto this wagon.
I've been on Cyan's case for a while. And his last contentless post was the last straw since I've been asking for more (especially on his case against kpaca) from him for a while, so I voted.
Unvote Cyan
So you have no actual behavioural analysis to offer, only meta?
On WoD and Cyan? No.
Unless you're asking in general on everyone in the game, in which case you need to read my posts.
I want to know where you get this knowledge of WoD and Cyan from. Are they in any of these games?
WoD and Cyan are in LotR II but that's ongoing. I'm getting the knowledge (as I've already stated) from other people's statements in games I've read as well as those games themselves.
I'm pretty sure Kraj posted something to that effect...
Ouch. I'm not sure how I managed to miss that.
The fact is, you leapt at the opportunity to persecuted him that could have been down to any number of things unconnected to the game.
If it was RL/ internet issues he would be able to set me straight (as in fact happened) and no harm done. Fact of the matter is, that it's just more likely when someone is lurking that it doesn't have to do with RL issues.
Everyone go read Janus, and then vote Cyan afterwards. And Cyan don't give me some whining about how you replaced into your scum role that game, it's not a valid defense.
Now you can analyze my wagon and figure out who was genuine in their attitude and who was not.
Like, you know, Kpaca.
Hmm. While I want to believe your claim (as it would explain the difference in your playstyle, since as I've mentioned it looks like as scum you are just as hyperaggresive as you are when town), it seems too convienient that you are the doc (favorite scum claim). I guess we'll just wait and see if there's any counterclaim.
Unvote
What's your flavor (or is there a reason you didn't say it)?
Wonderful. This is why you don't push people for little reason.
Meta arguments are useful, but to push out a power role based entirely on them is just ridiculous.
You seem too sure about Cyan's alignment which is something to keep an eye on by itself but more interesting is that you then ask this:
Cyan, have you been a similar power role in other games?
Which implies that you are still unsure about Cyan's alignment and want to look into it more.
I don't believe Cyan one bit. This claim is bogus.
I agree its bad (and is noticeably lacking flavor), but uncounterclaimed doc is still the doc until proof shows otherwise. (And before someone gets all panicky, I am not saying that if Cyan is lying and there is a doc, that xe should come forward. Xe shouldn't! Not on day 1, anyways.)
I'm not sure I believe it either, but it's all meta-gaming that makes me think that.
In Superhero (and I think here, too) Cyan said that he has trouble getting into a mini because they bore him. (In fact, on Superhero, he didn't really get interested until I claimed Mason and he decided to counter-claim me.)
The thing I have trouble with is that (at least in this game) I would think that getting a Power Role PM would make any game more interesting. Respond to this, please, Cyan.
As I have said countless times, in countless games, Doc is not a power role. It is a role that seems powerful, but is actually not. Rarely does it actually accomplish anything or interact with the playerbase in any meaningful way. It is a boring role.
The only good thing about it is that a game virtually never features more than one Doc, so when you are forced to claim, it largely confirms you, regardless of your previous behavior. Of course, it also typically leads to you dying that night, but oh well.
Kpaca's 'reaction' to my claim is just more evidence against him. Pretty sure Kpaca is quoted somewhere as having said that an uncounterclaimed Doc is an uncounterclaimed Doc, regardless of how they have behaved.
Also, his Janus example was terrible. A)I posted as much as anyone did in that game(which is not much, to be fair, but w/e), and B)I replaced in, which is always, always different.
He most likely suspected that I was masking a power role by hiding(this seems backwards, but based upon my personal meta, it's really not), and wanted an excuse to pile on my wagon. Plus, as I said, I had been promising a case against him, and attacking me first is a good way for him to avoid that.
Kpaca vs Cyan!...rawr vs rawr!...case vs case? not so much. Cyan knows I don't vote uncountered claimed doc and I had that as my sig, quoting kpaca for awhile.
I bet if I troll a couple of Cyan games I'll find him saying Doc is a favorite scum false claim.
Doc is a crap role in a non-mini. In a mini, I think it's important. All the Cop/Doc/Mafia roleblocker theory comes into play.
The wagon formed fast and it was L-2 before forcing a claim was mentioned. Cyan could have easily been speed lynched with a whoops.
So an Miller/Godfather item and a Doc, intriguing.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I agree its bad (and is noticeably lacking flavor), but uncounterclaimed doc is still the doc until proof shows otherwise. (And before someone gets all panicky, I am not saying that if Cyan is lying and there is a doc, that xe should come forward. Xe shouldn't! Not on day 1, anyways.)
1) I've been told that if scum claims doc and you're the doc, you ALWAYS counterclaim. What would be the benefit of having a secret doc hiding in the wings if the town's been hoodwinked into thinking scum is the doc? Best case, the real doc reveals later in the game to expose the scum...and town turns on the real doc because he didn't counterclaim immediately.
2) What's "xe"?
The wagon formed fast and it was L-2 before forcing a claim was mentioned. Cyan could have easily been speed lynched with a whoops.
The wagon did form fast, and according to what I've read/been told (by Cyan, among others) is that a fast wagon often indicates town more than scum (except in obvscum cases, obv). I'm not as sold on the potential for speed-lynching. I unvoted less than an hour after Cyan claimed, so the window for the scum to pile the votes on for a hammer was minimal, not to mention risky, especially after a doc claim.
Right. I'm back, so could people please reiterate their questions they asked but I have not yet answered?
Wow, could you scream "I'm not really reading the thread" any louder? How about if you go read the thread, identify the questions that were asked, and answer them.
I am also disturbed by Cyan's lax attitude. He doesn't even really seem to be trying and has only really pointed towards kpaca as scum, despite the fact he hasn't really said anything about it other than he is looking it over. I would like to see more out of him before I make my final decision but he is moving towards the scum list.
1) I've been told that if scum claims doc and you're the doc, you ALWAYS counterclaim. What would be the benefit of having a secret doc hiding in the wings if the town's been hoodwinked into thinking scum is the doc? Best case, the real doc reveals later in the game to expose the scum...and town turns on the real doc because he didn't counterclaim immediately.
In a smaller game the doc is usually more powerful, since there is less people and less potential targets. Therefore they have a higher probability of protecting a person from a kill.
The scum usually like to claim doc early as it will usually force the doc to reveal themselves or it will confirm them. Really it is a win-win scenerio for the scum as it either reveals the doc or confirms them. In my opinion it is best for the doc to remain hidden in these scenerios until xe either is about to be lynched or it comes down to a lynch or lose/endgame scenerio.
As for the town turning on the doc for not counterclaiming immediatly... well I can't speak for stupid town.
As for "xe", it is the gender neutral pronoun in English, equivilent to "he/she".
In a smaller game the doc is usually more powerful, since there is less people and less potential targets. Therefore they have a higher probability of protecting a person from a kill.
The scum usually like to claim doc early as it will usually force the doc to reveal themselves or it will confirm them. Really it is a win-win scenerio for the scum as it either reveals the doc or confirms them. In my opinion it is best for the doc to remain hidden in these scenerios until xe either is about to be lynched or it comes down to a lynch or lose/endgame scenerio.
As for the town turning on the doc for not counterclaiming immediatly... well I can't speak for stupid town.
That's interesting, since my personal experience comes from basics...which are the same size as this one. Of course, basics have basic tactics; I suppose I can't assume that they port over to any kind of game...
Quote from Guardman »
As for "xe", it is the gender neutral pronoun in English, equivilent to "he/she".
I sorta figured...I think I've been told that before...still sounds odd.
As I have said countless times, in countless games, Doc is not a power role. It is a role that seems powerful, but is actually not. Rarely does it actually accomplish anything or interact with the playerbase in any meaningful way. It is a boring role.
The only good thing about it is that a game virtually never features more than one Doc, so when you are forced to claim, it largely confirms you, regardless of your previous behavior. Of course, it also typically leads to you dying that night, but oh well.
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I was just making sure that you don't actually have any evidence.
Really? You will just discount meta completely? Sure, behaviour will trump meta but to just completely disregard meta? I don't know where you're coming from.
Then you ask for a mod prod or ask them to post more, not attack them for it. 'Lurkers' are easy targets.
I'm sure he would have gotten the message from everyone commenting on his absence. Sure, lurkers are easy targets but again, you are completely disregarding the meta that made it more than just a simple lurker.
I don't actually remember you posting anywhere that you have withdrawn your suspicion on WoD. Have you?
Are you being purposefully dense?
0.o
I'm just irrtated that we have had a claim so eary with very little case. I am not sure on Cyan's alignment at all and this is a pretty poor attack.
This is not what the wording of your post tells me:
Wonderful. This is why you don't push people for little reason.
Meta arguments are useful, but to push out a power role based entirely on them is just ridiculous.
This is pretty strong language for someone that is unsure.
Also interestingly enough, while requoting this I notice that your opinion on meta in this quoted section does not jive with your "evidence" comment at the top of my post. Explain please.
In a smaller game the doc is usually more powerful, since there is less people and less potential targets. Therefore they have a higher probability of protecting a person from a kill.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=darkslategrey]The scum usually like to claim doc early as it will usually force the doc to reveal themselves or it will confirm them. Really it is a win-win scenerio for the scum as it either reveals the doc or confirms them. In my opinion it is best for the doc to remain hidden in these scenerios until xe either is about to be lynched or it comes down to a lynch or lose/endgame scenerio.[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=darkslategrey]As for the town turning on the doc for not counterclaiming immediatly... well I can't speak for stupid town.[/COLOR][/FONT]
I'm going to have to disagree strongly here. If you say that the real doc waits until Lylo or until he's under threat of being lynched, then that is exactly what scum will do.
Let's say Cyan is the doc, and we go after scum - they are going to claim doc and you're prepared to just treat it as a counterclaim and lynch the real doc off it.
Even worse is the Lylo scenario - in Lylo we're now forced to lynch one of them but it could just easily be a scum false-counterclaiming to get the real doc lynched and win the game.
The only time a counterclaim is believable, no questions asked, is right now. Right now, there is absolutely no gain to mafia to false-counterclaim. A 1:1 trade will always favor the town. Yes, forcing the doc to out himself right now means that he's an easy target for scum but as Cyan pointed out, doc is not exactly a really powerful role (by itself; with watchers, confirmed townies and other fun stuff it could start to be pretty useful) and I would trade a doc for a scum always.
However, as soon as you start encouraging that the doc remain silent then that just gives more reason and incentive for a scum to false-counterclaim in Lylo or under threat of lynch.
tl;dr: If there's a counterclaim out there, I want it right now.
Ok, after initial read, I'm going to have to say firstly that I laughed at Cyan using "pre-emptive OMGUS" as an argument, which is a term I personally coined as a definition of one of the more annoying cyan-isms. It's good that he finally recognises it as an anti-town tell.
Sadly, (And I know this is hilariously hypocritical given that this is like my third post in 6 pages of game) I don't think he's posted enough for me to really give a ruling yet on cyan-scum or cyan-town. If he claims Mason with kpaca - lynch him on the spot.
However, Doc is the kind of claim that Cyan often does, and previously has, false-claimed as scum. Be aware of this. If he doesn't turn up dead, be suspicious.
I'm not a massive fan of kpaca, but then again, he wouldn't be kpaca if he wasn't pissing people off
I think I've played a few games with him, but to be honest I'm not sure I've paid him enough attention in any of those games to really analyze any playstyle tells he may be exhibiting.
MandersHex seems pretty townie to me. She's asking some good questions. To answer her question, No, my vote on Cyan was not a serious vote. I have no way of knowing if he is a godfather or not, and even if I did, I'd certainly not claim it without some kind of guaranteed protection.
@Calvin - Lurking. For me. Out of character. If you truly believe that, there is this bridge I'd like to sell you That being said - thanks for doing the legwork on Cyan - it's interesting to see his starting approach vs alignment - there does seem to be some correlation.
Cantripmancer's OPTION A VS OPTION B discussion was too long; didn't read.
Jordman is nonsensical, except for the last couple of posts where he makes an attempt to be understandable. He was scum in Sword of Truth - so anyone can go read that game.
Guardman seems happy-go-lucky-townie.
Teknolink seems to be dodging questions a lot. Unvote, Vote TeknoLink.
Whoah. No wonder I couldn't find it, it was 6 pages back, the only questions that were left unanswered.
This feels overapologetic, like you're trying to express effort and explain away the reason you haven't addressed them. I feel that it instead shows how long you went without answering the questions posed to you.
Quote from TL »
I couldn't discuss this before, but in SOT his behavior was very similar to here. Here he's just throwing mud in our face in order to keep us from finding the real scum. Yet, we didn't lynch his ass and kept him in the game too long.
And this feels like insinuation by parallel mixed with a mild dose of fearmongering. "Beware! We took him too lightly and suffered the consequences!" If you find him scummy, why no vote?
Once again, I'm getting a townie vibe from her, she's appearing to be quite honest and active in scumhunting which she did there as well.
I think MH's township is pretty much identified; do we really have to keep stating the obvious?
Ok, after initial read, I'm going to have to say firstly that I laughed at Cyan using "pre-emptive OMGUS" as an argument, which is a term I personally coined as a definition of one of the more annoying cyan-isms. It's good that he finally recognises it as an anti-town tell.
Sadly, (And I know this is hilariously hypocritical given that this is like my third post in 6 pages of game) I don't think he's posted enough for me to really give a ruling yet on cyan-scum or cyan-town. If he claims Mason with kpaca - lynch him on the spot.
However, Doc is the kind of claim that Cyan often does, and previously has, false-claimed as scum. Be aware of this. If he doesn't turn up dead, be suspicious.
I'm not a massive fan of kpaca, but then again, he wouldn't be kpaca if he wasn't pissing people off
I think I've played a few games with him, but to be honest I'm not sure I've paid him enough attention in any of those games to really analyze any playstyle tells he may be exhibiting.
MandersHex seems pretty townie to me. She's asking some good questions. To answer her question, No, my vote on Cyan was not a serious vote. I have no way of knowing if he is a godfather or not, and even if I did, I'd certainly not claim it without some kind of guaranteed protection.
@Calvin - Lurking. For me. Out of character. If you truly believe that, there is this bridge I'd like to sell you That being said - thanks for doing the legwork on Cyan - it's interesting to see his starting approach vs alignment - there does seem to be some correlation.
Cantripmancer's OPTION A VS OPTION B discussion was too long; didn't read.
Jordman is nonsensical, except for the last couple of posts where he makes an attempt to be understandable. He was scum in Sword of Truth - so anyone can go read that game.
Guardman seems happy-go-lucky-townie.
Teknolink seems to be dodging questions a lot. Unvote, Vote TeknoLink.
On the one hand I like this post, but on the other it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.
Meta is extra, not evidence on it's own. I made that clear earlier.
That doesn't compute logically. Either meta has some value or it does not. It cannot be extra evidence when used in conjunction with behaviour if it is 0 evidence by itself. This is especially confusing, given your propensity to constantly bring up meta against me in your attacks.
You're trying to tell me that your attack was to get him to up the post count? I don't believe you.
That isn't what I said. You asked why I hadn't asked the mod to prod him - I answered that I was sure WoD would get the message from everyone's posts on him - hence no need to ask the mod for any prods. My 'attack' was a comment that WoD was the only other person remotely on my radar due to (perceived) meta issues.
Definitely a different playstyle to Basic #10.
How so?
No, I'm not. I can't remember. Did you?
It should be quite obvious that if I only ever mentioned WoD because I thought that his lurking was indicative of a scum WoD and then the lurking is explained as being due to Internet connection issues, that I have no problem with him.
Why you asked this question not once, but twice is quite beyond me. Some things require explanation and others are brutally obvious. This was the latter.
It's strong wording because it's made the game unnecessarily more complictaed, based on very litt. Nothing to do with alignment.
It seems pretty clear to me that you are believing that he is a power role. I don't know how to read the bolded section any other way.
Wonderful. This is why you don't push people for little reason.
Meta arguments are useful, but to push out a power role based entirely on them is just ridiculous.
Vote:Calvin
It was pretty clear that you were building up to this the past couple of days, I'm just confused as to the timing. What made you suddenly vote now?
On Jordman, I thought he was town when he was scum in Sword of Truth. General incoherent babbling makes him quite hard to read so I'm not sure what to think of him.
@kpaca: Again, why so confident that Cyan is lying. Also you never answered my question about the defence of 'I replaced in' was invalid.
@Cyan: Can you post and answer questions posed to you?
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
A likely story, lurker!
I await your input with anticipation.
Yeah, i think he got lucky though.
Holy Crap it's WOD
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
We have never played in a game before, right? If I misspelled your name it was purely unintentional. I do in fact read your name as Catnipmancer and have to force myself to read it as Cantripmancer so if I misspelled it and it offended you I apologize.
I also rarely use ad hom attacks, exceptions are out there but they are few and far between.
You and me are not invovled in anyway in my hypothetical. I bet you can guess who I am referring too if you just focus on that alone.
Fine, I can concede that point.
Barns so much he should be Amish.
This is a weak rebuttal and reads as scum waiting to see if the the wagon gets traction or a just a lazy player unwilling to do a proper analysis
Toastboy could be your scumbuddy.
Not really, I think people are split except for kpaca who thinks we're running a scum gambit
No you are using a blanket statement to keep your vote on me, and soon people will jump on the wagon with the same blanket statement.
So if it's not you and me who am I talking about in my hypothetical?
12-11? I'm losing track
Oh yeah, i will respond to your post, later, maybe tonight.
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
I think it was a good case. Could it have been better, yes. But I've seen a whole lot worse cases.
He seems to be swayed as soon as he sees something scummy to vote. Attacking scummy things isn't scummy, but when you move your vote from one person to another over little scummy things then yes it is. He has been moving from one person to the next.
On average I am in the middle between those that are super aggressive and those that are super cautious with their vote.
This Infinis and Cantrip thing is making my head hurt, mostly due to Infinis logic. But that isn't surprising since I usually can't understand Infinis' logic to begin with most of the time. Right now I think Cantrip and Infinis are two towns fighting it out.
I am also disturbed by Cyan's lax attitude. He doesn't even really seem to be trying and has only really pointed towards kpaca as scum, despite the fact he hasn't really said anything about it other than he is looking it over. I would like to see more out of him before I make my final decision but he is moving towards the scum list.
I AM TEH MASTAH O FAIL
ty spiderboys
I AM TEH MASTAH O FAIL
ty spiderboys
Malcolm was someone's gimmick account in Basic #10. They basically declared people scum/town without backing it up when pressed for reasons and ultimately replaced out due to low activity.
My comment was only partially serious - I doubt you are Malcolm because it seems kind of pointless to make a gimmick so close to your own playstyle and you also don't really strike me as ther type to make a gimmick. I was noting the similiarites between your playstyle and his and how both are slighlty frusturating.
Got it.
Pretty much how I feel as well. Although, Cantrip has been poking at pretty much anything that is pokable. Could just be a very analytical townie though.
OK. I'm not sure how to respond to this as I'm pretty sure my play here is no different then there.
Coincidental. Again, you can look at it that way that I'm only hunting lurkers for the reasons you stated or you can actually realize that I'm looking at their playstyles and seeing oddities compared to their normal play.
Besides, I haven't been avoiding commenting on any wagons and my opinion on Cyan will not change based on off he suddenly starts posting after being called out on it; only if it actually turns out that this his normal townie play in a mini.
What relevance does this question have?
I've been in Basic #10, Sword of Truth, Lord of the Rings II and this.
And I was supposed to know that because....?
I'm not sure what prompted you to ask this question. Simple common sense would show that I commented on WoD before he revealed that the reason he wasn't around was because of a bad internet connection.
Yes in Sword of Truth. I'll reserve commenting on it until it is fully finished (although it seems to be almost done).
@CYAN: Can you point me to a mini that you feel you played the same way as here? I don't feel like reading the first 30 pages of 5 different games.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
Now what are we going to do with Jordman being suspended?
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
Thought he was Silky Johnson trying a different playstyle, no matter.
I read up to the KH wagon and stopped. Why? Because Calvin came off strongly as a site veteran and yet that was his first or second game here. I'll continue the read when I have more leisure to do so.
WoD is a chronic lurker. He replaced out once if not twice from games I've been in.
I've never played in a mini with Cyan, so I can't speak to that. But Cyan not blitzrieging anyone and then apologizing for not posting are two striking issues from what I've experienced. Does that make him scum? Not unitl we get a couple of substantial posts from him.
Expound please
And I've not forgotten about Cantripmancer and our issue. Also of note is the confusion I've caused Guardman and undoubtably others.
Ill break it down.
Look at the original Hypothetical I proposed.
Do you see or can you conceive of any in thread posts/situations that I could've shoe horned us into the Hypothetical to make me seem Town and/or him Scum?
Cantrip said he didnt answer directly because of this reason, If was asking a loaded question. And I don't blame him for not answering if he thought it was a loaded question. But I ask you this, how did I say he or I were involved in the scenarios presented?
I suggested that a townie would have no problem answering a Hypothetical since he's Town what threat could he feel from a Theoretical? At worse I am scum trying to get a townie lynched. At best I'm one townie asking another for his help to further the lynching of scum. If he thought I was scum why not answer and then see where I went with it and then attack the premise?
12-11? I'm losing track
Unvote jordman
I'll reevaluate my vote after a replacement is found and we get to hear from them.
Also I understand WoD not having internet, but I want something out of Cyan. He has offered no content, just promises of content.
Geez, what is it with games I'm playing and players getting the boot? Last game it was AI for his indecent exposure in signature.
Which of those questions do you actually want me to respond to, and which were meant for someone other than me? Because I feel like I've answered many of them.
Everyone go read Janus, and then vote Cyan afterwards. And Cyan don't give me some whining about how you replaced into your scum role that game, it's not a valid defense.
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I read most the posts in that game, and I do see the similarities, but I hesitate to start a wagon based solely on play similarity. Of course, he also feels like he's lurking, and I hates the lurk. I'm really not getting a good feeling from his lack of content.
If he had been reading the thread, he would have seen Kraj post in #148 that WoD was suffering connection issues. But he apparently skipped over that and posted anti-WoD sentiment in #154 and #169. What's interesting is that #148 is a vote count, which I tend to read, since it often provides a larger picture of the game state, but Calvin obviously did not. What I find a little more interesting atm is your defense of him, in spite of both Toastboy and I indicating that there was knowledge of the issue prior to Calvin's continued objections.
Why so protective?
Nice pre-emptive OMGUS vote.
How about Superhero, where I was A)scum but B)incredibly active?
Good metagame argument you have going there.
And yet, it's not the activity of your posts this game that seems off, it's the content, which, as you prove here, is still lacking. Combined with an odd absence of scumhunting/fingerpointing, which runs counter to what I've observed to be your norm, I think there is cause for concern.
Unvote Infinis; Vote Cyan
This is a bad post. You have still yet to provide content, and all you've done is counter a metagame argument with another metagame argument.
Content now!
Vote Cyan
Also I fail to see how his vote is either preemptive or OMGUS. All you've done is say kpaca looks like scum to you without backing it up.
Ok, well, I didn't notice that he'd posted things since Kraj posted that, but as you said he could have missed it. I'm sure not everyone reads everything in the vote count posts. (I do, btw).
I'm referring to the fact that he's already been made aware of it and he's waiting patiently. I'm just saying I don't think it's a scumtell, not really trying to protect him.
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You have. I'm just clarifying for guardman...and Unvote. Downgraded to IGMEOY
12-11? I'm losing track
Cyan - 5 (Calvin, Cantripmancer, Guardman, kpaca, WoD)
Archon Kamigawa - 1 (Toastboy)
Infinis - 1 (jordman)
jordman - 1 (Cyan)
Not voting: Infinis, MandersHex, TeknoLink
Unless I'm mistaken, jordman's suspension will last only about a week total, so he should be back within a few days.
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She knows why.
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Now you can analyze my wagon and figure out who was genuine in their attitude and who was not.
Like, you know, Kpaca.
Am I incorrect in my thinking that this is a slightly scummy statement? In reviewing, I haven't noticed anyone else specifically ask to be given the item, and it seems like he may be scum fishing to have that awesome item.
Also, he still hasn't answered the questions that have been asked of him several times by several different people, and I just noticed that, until today, he hadn't posted in 6 days.
@TeknoLink: Please answer the questions that were asked of you by Toastboy and Calvin, I believe.
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Aw, carp. Well, unvote Cyan. Why would you change your style so drastically AND be so light on posting if you're the doctor? You're practically begging to be analyzed.
I think I assumed that he was joking; it was all of 18 posts into the game and he smilied...but you're right that he's avoided answering questions.
I was sort of a scum Doc in Legions Mafia.
I've been on Cyan's case for a while. And his last contentless post was the last straw since I've been asking for more (especially on his case against kpaca) from him for a while, so I voted.
Unvote Cyan
Cyan what is your case against kpaca?
On WoD and Cyan? No.
Unless you're asking in general on everyone in the game, in which case you need to read my posts.
WoD and Cyan are in LotR II but that's ongoing. I'm getting the knowledge (as I've already stated) from other people's statements in games I've read as well as those games themselves.
Ouch. I'm not sure how I managed to miss that.
If it was RL/ internet issues he would be able to set me straight (as in fact happened) and no harm done. Fact of the matter is, that it's just more likely when someone is lurking that it doesn't have to do with RL issues.
Why wouldn't that defence be a defence?
This statement makes me feel reasonably confident that Cantripmancer and Cyan are not scum together.
Hmm. While I want to believe your claim (as it would explain the difference in your playstyle, since as I've mentioned it looks like as scum you are just as hyperaggresive as you are when town), it seems too convienient that you are the doc (favorite scum claim). I guess we'll just wait and see if there's any counterclaim.
Unvote
What's your flavor (or is there a reason you didn't say it)?
You seem too sure about Cyan's alignment which is something to keep an eye on by itself but more interesting is that you then ask this:
Which implies that you are still unsure about Cyan's alignment and want to look into it more.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
I agree its bad (and is noticeably lacking flavor), but uncounterclaimed doc is still the doc until proof shows otherwise. (And before someone gets all panicky, I am not saying that if Cyan is lying and there is a doc, that xe should come forward. Xe shouldn't! Not on day 1, anyways.)
In Superhero (and I think here, too) Cyan said that he has trouble getting into a mini because they bore him. (In fact, on Superhero, he didn't really get interested until I claimed Mason and he decided to counter-claim me.)
The thing I have trouble with is that (at least in this game) I would think that getting a Power Role PM would make any game more interesting. Respond to this, please, Cyan.
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The only good thing about it is that a game virtually never features more than one Doc, so when you are forced to claim, it largely confirms you, regardless of your previous behavior. Of course, it also typically leads to you dying that night, but oh well.
Kpaca's 'reaction' to my claim is just more evidence against him. Pretty sure Kpaca is quoted somewhere as having said that an uncounterclaimed Doc is an uncounterclaimed Doc, regardless of how they have behaved.
Also, his Janus example was terrible. A)I posted as much as anyone did in that game(which is not much, to be fair, but w/e), and B)I replaced in, which is always, always different.
He most likely suspected that I was masking a power role by hiding(this seems backwards, but based upon my personal meta, it's really not), and wanted an excuse to pile on my wagon. Plus, as I said, I had been promising a case against him, and attacking me first is a good way for him to avoid that.
I bet if I troll a couple of Cyan games I'll find him saying Doc is a favorite scum false claim.
Doc is a crap role in a non-mini. In a mini, I think it's important. All the Cop/Doc/Mafia roleblocker theory comes into play.
The wagon formed fast and it was L-2 before forcing a claim was mentioned. Cyan could have easily been speed lynched with a whoops.
So an Miller/Godfather item and a Doc, intriguing.
Alright Cyan let's have a case on someone.
12-11? I'm losing track
And i want to hear WoD. That is all for now.
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
2) What's "xe"?
The wagon did form fast, and according to what I've read/been told (by Cyan, among others) is that a fast wagon often indicates town more than scum (except in obvscum cases, obv). I'm not as sold on the potential for speed-lynching. I unvoted less than an hour after Cyan claimed, so the window for the scum to pile the votes on for a hammer was minimal, not to mention risky, especially after a doc claim.
Wow, could you scream "I'm not really reading the thread" any louder? How about if you go read the thread, identify the questions that were asked, and answer them.
Ditto.
Good to have you back.
I am serious.
In a smaller game the doc is usually more powerful, since there is less people and less potential targets. Therefore they have a higher probability of protecting a person from a kill.
The scum usually like to claim doc early as it will usually force the doc to reveal themselves or it will confirm them. Really it is a win-win scenerio for the scum as it either reveals the doc or confirms them. In my opinion it is best for the doc to remain hidden in these scenerios until xe either is about to be lynched or it comes down to a lynch or lose/endgame scenerio.
As for the town turning on the doc for not counterclaiming immediatly... well I can't speak for stupid town.
As for "xe", it is the gender neutral pronoun in English, equivilent to "he/she".
I sorta figured...I think I've been told that before...still sounds odd.
I would understand healthy skepticisim (I'm still a little skeptical myself) but outright denial?
This seems like a pretty genuine sentiment to me.
Really? You will just discount meta completely? Sure, behaviour will trump meta but to just completely disregard meta? I don't know where you're coming from.
I'm sure he would have gotten the message from everyone commenting on his absence. Sure, lurkers are easy targets but again, you are completely disregarding the meta that made it more than just a simple lurker.
Are you being purposefully dense?
This is not what the wording of your post tells me:
This is pretty strong language for someone that is unsure.
Also interestingly enough, while requoting this I notice that your opinion on meta in this quoted section does not jive with your "evidence" comment at the top of my post. Explain please.
I'm going to have to disagree strongly here. If you say that the real doc waits until Lylo or until he's under threat of being lynched, then that is exactly what scum will do.
Let's say Cyan is the doc, and we go after scum - they are going to claim doc and you're prepared to just treat it as a counterclaim and lynch the real doc off it.
Even worse is the Lylo scenario - in Lylo we're now forced to lynch one of them but it could just easily be a scum false-counterclaiming to get the real doc lynched and win the game.
The only time a counterclaim is believable, no questions asked, is right now. Right now, there is absolutely no gain to mafia to false-counterclaim. A 1:1 trade will always favor the town. Yes, forcing the doc to out himself right now means that he's an easy target for scum but as Cyan pointed out, doc is not exactly a really powerful role (by itself; with watchers, confirmed townies and other fun stuff it could start to be pretty useful) and I would trade a doc for a scum always.
However, as soon as you start encouraging that the doc remain silent then that just gives more reason and incentive for a scum to false-counterclaim in Lylo or under threat of lynch.
tl;dr: If there's a counterclaim out there, I want it right now.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
Sadly, (And I know this is hilariously hypocritical given that this is like my third post in 6 pages of game) I don't think he's posted enough for me to really give a ruling yet on cyan-scum or cyan-town. If he claims Mason with kpaca - lynch him on the spot.
However, Doc is the kind of claim that Cyan often does, and previously has, false-claimed as scum. Be aware of this. If he doesn't turn up dead, be suspicious.
I'm not a massive fan of kpaca, but then again, he wouldn't be kpaca if he wasn't pissing people off
I think I've played a few games with him, but to be honest I'm not sure I've paid him enough attention in any of those games to really analyze any playstyle tells he may be exhibiting.
MandersHex seems pretty townie to me. She's asking some good questions. To answer her question, No, my vote on Cyan was not a serious vote. I have no way of knowing if he is a godfather or not, and even if I did, I'd certainly not claim it without some kind of guaranteed protection.
@Calvin - Lurking. For me. Out of character. If you truly believe that, there is this bridge I'd like to sell you That being said - thanks for doing the legwork on Cyan - it's interesting to see his starting approach vs alignment - there does seem to be some correlation.
Cantripmancer's OPTION A VS OPTION B discussion was too long; didn't read.
Jordman is nonsensical, except for the last couple of posts where he makes an attempt to be understandable. He was scum in Sword of Truth - so anyone can go read that game.
Guardman seems happy-go-lucky-townie.
Teknolink seems to be dodging questions a lot. Unvote, Vote TeknoLink.
This feels overapologetic, like you're trying to express effort and explain away the reason you haven't addressed them. I feel that it instead shows how long you went without answering the questions posed to you.
And this feels like insinuation by parallel mixed with a mild dose of fearmongering. "Beware! We took him too lightly and suffered the consequences!" If you find him scummy, why no vote?
I think MH's township is pretty much identified; do we really have to keep stating the obvious?
I noticed that, too.
On the one hand I like this post, but on the other it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.
Also the bolded bit is WIFOM.
That doesn't compute logically. Either meta has some value or it does not. It cannot be extra evidence when used in conjunction with behaviour if it is 0 evidence by itself. This is especially confusing, given your propensity to constantly bring up meta against me in your attacks.
That isn't what I said. You asked why I hadn't asked the mod to prod him - I answered that I was sure WoD would get the message from everyone's posts on him - hence no need to ask the mod for any prods. My 'attack' was a comment that WoD was the only other person remotely on my radar due to (perceived) meta issues.
How so?
It should be quite obvious that if I only ever mentioned WoD because I thought that his lurking was indicative of a scum WoD and then the lurking is explained as being due to Internet connection issues, that I have no problem with him.
Why you asked this question not once, but twice is quite beyond me. Some things require explanation and others are brutally obvious. This was the latter.
It seems pretty clear to me that you are believing that he is a power role. I don't know how to read the bolded section any other way.
It was pretty clear that you were building up to this the past couple of days, I'm just confused as to the timing. What made you suddenly vote now?
On Jordman, I thought he was town when he was scum in Sword of Truth. General incoherent babbling makes him quite hard to read so I'm not sure what to think of him.
@kpaca: Again, why so confident that Cyan is lying. Also you never answered my question about the defence of 'I replaced in' was invalid.
@Cyan: Can you post and answer questions posed to you?
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
Good Luck getting an answer.
12-11? I'm losing track
'Case' on Kpaca coming up.