I thought I was being clear. so, night 1 I declare using my ability, nothing happens that night related to me. day 2 we lynch whoever, NO night, straight to day 3. so on night 3 i can use it again.
clayton doesn't actually seem scummy to me... Lecknirris on the otherhand does... I don't have the specific post number but he makes stuoid atttacks in clayton.
Unvote, Vote: Lucknorris
I see claytons ability as a get ouut of LyoL free card.
Wait sorry, why are you voting me? Can you explain again?
Yes, it does. I'd like to see it demonstrated, as well.
What are everyone's thoughts on the following three people, and why?
1) clayton
2) Sir Auron
3) lucknorris
For that matter, where is everyone? (I'll post my thoughts on the three when I'm done some more of my work.)
2. Sir auron in my opinion is just wagon hopping, following the crowds like a sheep. I don't like it. after re-reading my vote was suppose to make a point on OMGUS, so unvote.
3. lucknorris comes off more newb town than scum or newb scum. He does explain himself better after he is ran through the wringer, He cracks under pressure at first.
I havent' gotten too big of a scumread from most people so here's what i'm going to propose:
Soft claim: one of you're colors.
Basically say what one of you're colors from you're guildpact leader dude's guild is. This will limit claims the scum can do and will us catch them falseclaiming without outing anybody as a certian guilt.
I havent' gotten too big of a scumread from most people so here's what i'm going to propose:
Soft claim: one of you're colors.
Basically say what one of you're colors from you're guildpact leader dude's guild is. This will limit claims the scum can do and will us catch them falseclaiming without outing anybody as a certian guilt.
I don't really see how that would help the town very much. It barely gives us any information, and the scum still have just about the same false claim opportunities.
I don't really see how that would help the town very much. It barely gives us any information, and the scum still have just about the same false claim opportunities.
It limits the scum's claims.
Example:
Person A claims blue, Person B claims blue, Person D claims blue, Person E claims blue, and person F claims blue. We know that one of these is scum.
It would probably work even better if we say if we're an allied pair or an enemy pair.
Person A claims Allied Blue, Person B Claims allied blue, Person C claims Allied blue.
One of those is scum
I don't personally see what a claim could reveal with this set up. I doubt we are going to pull various color issues. this would be a worse claim than my guild idea from the beginning.
It's an interesting idea. However, why wouldn't scum simply claim their actual colour pair? There wouldn't be any actual problem with doing so, as there are four possibilities for each pair, and this is assuming that certain guilds are scum.
If there are actually "scum clans", then doing this would limit scum's options. Either they would claim truthfully, and try to convince people that they're flavor isn't scummy, or they could get trapped in a false claim.
It definitely gains at least a little of something, without hurting the town by giving too much information away.
There are two possible options for each claim. Once again, that assumes that certain guilds are automatically scum, so...I'd rather not. Behaviour analysis is far more reliable than trying to guess alignment based on guild. If scum dies, and there's a pattern, then yes, I'd be amenable to mod-gaming. However, in a bubble? No.
...except for that character whose guild's purpose was to destroy the Guildpact...that one's pretty obvious...
I'll answer my own question in detail probably tomorrow or something...right now I'd be willing to guess clayton as town and Sir Auron + lucknorris as probable scum.
joboman, how do you feel about Sir Auron?
Well, here's the way I see it. No matter how objectively we look at it, people are still going to have the guild bias.
Except that half the players are against the claim. I just found that slightly ironic.
Anything gives the scum more info than we want to give them. You might see it as harmless, but the scum's job and goal is to turn anything you might possibly have into ammunition. I mean, its in the basics to know that the scum are going to manipulate anything we say. And like I said earlier, no matter how objectively we all look at it, the scum can play into that bias that we still hold (even if we try to overlook it), which can be disastrous.
Please note the tone here. Clayton is being treated as a town player who suggested a bad idea.
I'm going to have to concur that clayton is probably acting the most scummy. Well, maybe not scummy, but is acting least townie. This could be because his push for responses didn't go as well as he planned.
Consequently, I also am not a fan of Gen0 right now. He's done nothing wrong, but he seems to be the most lurking lurker there is right now.
To here...suddenly stating that clayton's not scummy, but not townie either. Also attacking lurkers.
Vote clayton. To reiterate, it wasn't the push for a name claim that made him seem scummy to me. It was the fact that he kept downplaying how it could help the scum.
I also want to throw a FOS Lucknorris out there, mainly because, as rocker05 pointed out, his use of horrible logic and not really seeing that clayton was partially right in asking questions. Also, I don't like how he just now dodged answering clayton's question about his logic. Lucknorris isn't posting enough for him to play a bigger role, so I'm willing to give him another day to step it up a bit.
To here. Now clayton's become scummy, which he gave no indication of in previous posts. At this point, multiple people expressed their suspicion of clayton, and this seems primed to attempt to play to that. Same with the suspicion of lucknorris here. This last part only applies if either one pops as scum.
Well, I see a lot of people have been commenting on my first real post on my first game of mafia, the one regarding clayton. As people can probably tell, I had a fail in that particular post and I already explained myself. Still I realize it was a stupid post on my part.
Anyway, about the one colour claim thing, why? Anyone can simply lie without anyone knowing. For example, if someone here was scum, they can simply say "white" and then people would say "oh, white isn't generally an evil colour, he must be town." Or if a towny says "white" people might get suspicious because they might think he's lying to them. Just my two cents.
Thats solid analysis to me. The second quoted one is definitley fence-sitting.
FOS: Sir Auron25
I'd like to state now that I'd be happy with pursuing either SA or Lucknorris
In my defense, you must also realize how Clayton was acting. I was not the only one arguing against the name claim idea Clayton put forward, and as he kept failing to see the logic everyone else presented, I felt it was a scum tell at the time in that he refused to see everyone else's point of view. When I said he was acting the most scummy/least townie, I was trying to say that his name claim idea was not in the best interest of the town, which I automatically inferred that he was at least anti-town in his thinking (maybe not really aware of it, but I saw it as an anti-town idea). And honestly, at the time, it was the most scum-like thing going on since we have already had one slow D1 at that point, claytons idea being the first big idea to get presented.
@ The one color claim: I honestly think its a bad idea and a waste of time. We almost have to assume that certain guilds are scum, which will get us nowhere quickly. Furthermore, claiming allied or enemy pairs gets us nowhere even quicker since knowing whether someone is "allied or enemy" holds absolutely no weight. Each person gets narrowed down to 5 guilds. The natural progression is a guild claim, which is a bad idea as well.
Well, I see a lot of people have been commenting on my first real post on my first game of mafia, the one regarding clayton. As people can probably tell, I had a fail in that particular post and I already explained myself. Still I realize it was a stupid post on my part.
Anyway, about the one colour claim thing, why? Anyone can simply lie without anyone knowing. For example, if someone here was scum, they can simply say "white" and then people would say "oh, white isn't generally an evil colour, he must be town." Or if a towny says "white" people might get suspicious because they might think he's lying to them. Just my two cents.
That last part is almost the exact definition of WIFOM. I'm also against the one color claim though, because what joboman said would only happen if everyperson who had the as one of their guild colors decided to claim that one color...AND the scum claimed the same color. Probably not going to happen. More likely is that we get 2 or 3 in each color, and that won't help us at all.
In my defense, you must also realize how Clayton was acting. I was not the only one arguing against the name claim idea Clayton put forward, and as he kept failing to see the logic everyone else presented, I felt it was a scum tell at the time in that he refused to see everyone else's point of view. When I said he was acting the most scummy/least townie, I was trying to say that his name claim idea was not in the best interest of the town, which I automatically inferred that he was at least anti-town in his thinking (maybe not really aware of it, but I saw it as an anti-town idea). And honestly, at the time, it was the most scum-like thing going on since we have already had one slow D1 at that point, claytons idea being the first big idea to get presented.
That's not the main point. The main point is that in between those three posts, your tone regarding clayton shifts so that it can align with what the town in general thinks of him. Nice strawman though.
In between those three posts of yours, clayton said absolutely nothing related to his bad claim idea, aside from withdrawing it. The third post specifically states that he's scummy, which you had not made any mention of previously. In fact, it would be more in the opposite direction - you answered clayton as though he were town, then avoided calling him scummy in the second post. Try again with a better response.
Those of you who haven't commented on clayton's claim, comment.
@ Luck, I take it your against the claim right? You didn't come out and state it. More like asking questions toward it. Presenting both sides of the fence. Something to wiggle around later?
@ Gigas, Comments on the claim. What about scumhunting? Any feelings toward Luck or SA? Or others?
The claim doesn't actually need to do that much. What it's meant to do is one main thing.
1. Limit the Mafia's claims. If they tie into a certain color and if they are an ally or enemy pair then they have to be one of two guilds. This makes it harder for them to claim any guild they want. Limiting their claim makes it harder for them to pick any guild that sounds like a solid claim, and forces them into an unadvantegous situation.
On the other side, this doesn't really help them at all. If people know that I'm part of lets say the Izzet, or the Gruul, Or the Simic guild then its not like that information will actually help them. Because we're talking about guild, not rolename, then this won't help them at all.
no offense joboman but you've pushed for claims in other games, didn't you get the hint. claims early on are not usually a good idea since anything short of a full claim will not get us any information that will get us scum players. My little shenanigan was more based on getting discussion going in the right direction, hell any direction.
The better question is why we still have some players that haven't posted since the replacements. RAVUS! I'm talking to you.
I'd like if it people actually listened to my arguments regarding this once in a while. I've had enough of hearing that "Oh it just duzn't help teh town!" Because I've adressed this and you can't just expect saying something to be true meaning it suddenly be true.
I have listen to your arguement in fact I agree with some of your opinion BUT, my counter arguement is this.
1. Do you know what guilds are scum? Do you really think that anyone would stick to the obvious evil guilds and make them scum? With out serious mod gaming you will not know anything with the set up.
2. 4 guilds each share colors, you are not going to have 6 claims of blue. statistically speaking the color pie can easily be navigated through.
3. non ally, ally claims only give us a hint of the plan, more mod gaming is needed to pick the evil ones.
4. Do you really think that AI would make it that easy?
I have listen to your arguement in fact I agree with some of your opinion BUT, my counter arguement is this.
1. Do you know what guilds are scum? Do you really think that anyone would stick to the obvious evil guilds and make them scum? With out serious mod gaming you will not know anything with the set up.
2. 4 guilds each share colors, you are not going to have 6 claims of blue. statistically speaking the color pie can easily be navigated through.
3. non ally, ally claims only give us a hint of the plan, more mod gaming is needed to pick the evil ones.
4. Do you really think that AI would make it that easy?
1. I'm not saying that I know what guild are scum. What I AM saying is that it limits false-claims and makes false-claims more likely to look scummy since they only have a limited amount of guilds to choose from.
2. You obviously don't understand what I'm proposing. I am proposing both one of your colors and if you're allied/enemy colors. For Example, I am orange and an enemy pair.
3. This doesn't make any sense.
4. What are you talking about? I'm not saying anything is easy.
Re the colour-claim:
You still haven't given a good reason for why the scum wouldn't just claim their actual colour-set.
Your proposed claim also defines each member of the town with two possible abilities, allowing scum to target power roles. For example, let's take clayton. If he picks Blue, enemy, that's Izzet or Simic. Simic is likely to be doc. Likewise, if he picks Red, enemy, that's Izzet or Boros, and Boros is likely to be cop.
Now we just need a Orzhov lawyer... (For the record, that's a reference to the comic A Lawyer, a Doctor and a Cop)
Re the colour-claim:
You still haven't given a good reason for why the scum wouldn't just claim their actual colour-set.
Your proposed claim also defines each member of the town with two possible abilities, allowing scum to target power roles. For example, let's take clayton. If he picks Blue, enemy, that's Izzet or Simic. Simic is likely to be doc. Likewise, if he picks Red, enemy, that's Izzet or Boros, and Boros is likely to be cop.
Now we just need a Orzhov lawyer... (For the record, that's a reference to the comic A Lawyer, a Doctor and a Cop)
This is just pure bull. Don't say I'M gaming the mod, when you're the one saying how simic is a doc, and boros is a cop when that doesn't even make any sense.
People claiming their actual color set would make it hard for them to false-claim. If information comes up later regarding a certian guild then we might be glad that we have people's guilds roughly figured out.
This is just pure bull. Don't say I'M gaming the mod, when you're the one saying how simic is a doc, and boros is a cop when that doesn't even make any sense.
People claiming their actual color set would make it hard for them to false-claim. If information comes up later regarding a certian guild then we might be glad that we have people's guilds roughly figured out.
I don't think you get it. Why would anyone false claim? Regardless if your boros or simic or whatever, there is no reason to assume that any particular clan is scum, hence a false claim wouldn't be necessary. All your doing is allowing various clans to expose themselves for no reason. A guild or color claim is useless.
This is just pure bull. Don't say I'M gaming the mod, when you're the one saying how simic is a doc, and boros is a cop when that doesn't even make any sense.
Boros - Wojek. Simic - Cytoplasts. Any questions?
People claiming their actual color set would make it hard for them to false-claim. If information comes up later regarding a certian guild then we might be glad that we have people's guilds roughly figured out.
Since you don't seem to understand, answer me this before we proceed:
Why would they need to false-claim their colour pair?
Since you don't seem to understand, answer me this before we proceed:
Why would they need to false-claim their colour pair?
Yes. You can't just game the mod like that. thats WAAAY too much.
They wouldn't. If they were forced to do their actual claim eventually their role will sound scummy if they are scum.
but there role won't be scummy, there behavior will. I don't think I've ever lynched anyone because of there claim. your claim doesn't give town very much if anything.
Admittedly, but it would be a reasonable guess under the circumstances. Out of curiosity, have you ever played a game as scum?
Actually, I've never been scum before, or even a non-town faction. That includes this game of course
You're not thinking. They obviously wouldn't claim their actual abilities. So let's rephrase that question.
But I am. If their claim sounds scummy because they are scum then we would have more reason to believe he is scum.
Considering that scum won't claim their actual abilities, why wouldn't they claim their true colour-pair?
Because they might think its scummy, i don't know. You're completley right here. The thing is limiting mafia's claim options is always a good thing. if further clues are presented or something like that the information could prove to be very useful, and it doesn't hurt.
Actually, I've never been scum before, or even a non-town faction. That includes this game of course
Of course.
But let me make you aware of a few things. First - the scum know who each other are, as well as their abilities. That, of course, would mean that they have ample resources to game the mod by comparing 2-3 abilities to their rolenames. If they match, then it would be reasonable for them to guess that the pattern would continue. Second - any hint that you give a scum as to which power roles belong to which townies is a bad thing. I can say, personally, that I, as scum, argued for the NK of our mod in Basic #10 because I guessed he was a cop, based on his sudden change of behaviour toward me. He was a watcher, but that's beside the point. If the scum can take out a valuable power role, then they will do that. Exposing any information on power roles should be avoided unless there is a massive benefit. There is not a massive benefit in this case.
But I am. If their claim sounds scummy because they are scum then we would have more reason to believe he is scum.
"If their claim sounds scummy." There are two problems with this statement.
First: Why would you force some random person to claim in the first place?
Second: Why would a scum claim abilities that are obviously scum? (For this, we're assuming that the scum can think better than jordman, who claimed a scummy character in SoT Mafia)
Because they might think its scummy, i don't know. You're completley right here. The thing is limiting mafia's claim options is always a good thing. if further clues are presented or something like that the information could prove to be very useful, and it doesn't hurt.
Like I said, it hurts the town badly for little benefit. See above.
Of course.
But let me make you aware of a few things. First - the scum know who each other are, as well as their abilities. That, of course, would mean that they have ample resources to game the mod by comparing 2-3 abilities to their rolenames. If they match, then it would be reasonable for them to guess that the pattern would continue. Second - any hint that you give a scum as to which power roles belong to which townies is a bad thing. I can say, personally, that I, as scum, argued for the NK of our mod in Basic #10 because I guessed he was a cop, based on his sudden change of behaviour toward me. He was a watcher, but that's beside the point. If the scum can take out a valuable power role, then they will do that. Exposing any information on power roles should be avoided unless there is a massive benefit. There is not a massive benefit in this case.
"If their claim sounds scummy." There are two problems with this statement.
First: Why would you force some random person to claim in the first place?
Second: Why would a scum claim abilities that are obviously scum? (For this, we're assuming that the scum can think better than jordman, who claimed a scummy character in SoT Mafia)
Like I said, it hurts the town badly for little benefit. See above.
I geuss we have to agree to disagree. I obviously think its a good idea and you obviously oppose it. We both think that our opponent's case is extremely weak and lacks little support. I don't really know what else to add besides I don't like the tone clayton's done from all of this. He has attacks you only after you begin to be more accusing of what I'm saying, opportunism, and is bashing me for doing the same things he tried to do with his first claim idea, and tries to say how he never even did them
1) probably town
2) No real read
3) most person likely to be scum
Quote from Joboman »
Person A claims blue, Person B claims blue, Person D claims blue, Person E claims blue, and person F claims blue. We know that one of these is scum.
No-one is going to do that, each person has two colors, and really black is the only one people would consider a scum tell.
Congratulation this game is still on the useless speculation stage. Soft claim won't work, also think a bit like this. There are many guilds that culd be considered scummy, infact i can think of reasons for each guild being scummy. Or are scum with other teams.
Dimir+Selsnya+Rakdos=Selsnya wants world domination and dimir and rakdos want in.
Azorius+Boros+Orzhov=Once again control of city, loses freedom.
Basicly it dosen't matter what you claim, AI isn't going to make it that simple.
E.G Golgari could be there just as rountine and are curretnly happy with the way things are, they might want to keep it that way, same with dimir, rakdos or any uild, it dosen't matter.
STOP MODDING THE GAME AND USING USELESS SPECULATION.
I'm back from illness and injury, which I was so thoughtful as to get out of the way simultaneously. Had a post prepared, but was dumb and it slipped away before I could post it.
Recreating it now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Imagine scantily-clad women in a leud embrace,
one stretched out and victim to a chokehold of the other,
both with big stupid grins spreading across their faces.]
I'd like to ask that you PM the mod in order to obtain a definitive answer to my questions. Currently, three of your answers are guesswork - the first being exactly which night is affected, the second being the effect on night actions, and the third being the number of uses available to you.
Oh, and clayton is probable town.
I'm not sure I would've made the same assessment. If I were asking these questions and my responses came across as guesswork and vague, I would presume him to be pulling things out of his ass to support his claim, which would further illustrate in my mind that it was a false claim. How did you come to the conclusion he was likely town, given those circumstances?
Quote from Cyouni »
What are everyone's thoughts on the following three people, and why?
1) clayton
2) Sir Auron
3) lucknorris
For that matter, where is everyone? (I'll post my thoughts on the three when I'm done some more of my work.)
My thoughts have already been extensively covered on Clayton and Lucknorris, but for Sir Auron, which I vaguely recall having touched on, I feel he could be scum, but something makes me think bad/new town. Pending further analysis.
Quote from jobomon »
I havent' gotten too big of a scumread from most people so here's what i'm going to propose:
Soft claim: one of you're colors.
Basically say what one of you're colors from you're guildpact leader dude's guild is. This will limit claims the scum can do and will us catch them falseclaiming without outing anybody as a certian guilt.
Quote from jobomon »
It limits the scum's claims.
Example:
Person A claims blue, Person B claims blue, Person D claims blue, Person E claims blue, and person F claims blue. We know that one of these is scum.
It would probably work even better if we say if we're an allied pair or an enemy pair.
Person A claims Allied Blue, Person B Claims allied blue, Person C claims Allied blue.
One of those is scum
This only really works if these three theoretical people all claim blue as their colour, doesn't it? Furthermore, we're back to the "let's claim information that doesn't necessarily give us any information, but gives the scum useful information". For this reason, I am opposed.
Quote from jobomon »
I have absolutley no read on him
Could you please highlight some of his more scummy posts? Seriously, I'd be very helpful.
I find it hard to believe you read through the game, with all the controversy over Clayton and lucknorris (and to a lesser extent, Auron), and not have an opinion one way or another. The further you get into this game, the scummier you're looking to me.
Quote from jobomon »
1. Limit the Mafia's claims. If they tie into a certain color and if they are an ally or enemy pair then they have to be one of two guilds. This makes it harder for them to claim any guild they want. Limiting their claim makes it harder for them to pick any guild that sounds like a solid claim, and forces them into an unadvantegous situation.
On the other side, this doesn't really help them at all. If people know that I'm part of lets say the Izzet, or the Gruul, Or the Simic guild then its not like that information will actually help them. Because we're talking about guild, not rolename, then this won't help them at all.
I think you're looking at this backward. This sort of claim idea would give them more information as to what not to claim. And again, claiming their own actual alignment wouldn't necessarily give them away as scum, unless you make a very mod-gaming presumption that he'd make the obvious guilds scum. Still further, there are four black-aligned guilds, and not all four of them can be scum. Blue is a shifty colour, there adds three more guilds. The Gruul dislike society and tore down their own guildhouse, that seems like enough motivation to be pegged as scummy. That's eight guilds whose mere flavour gives aimless suspicion to, and I'm sure an argument could be made for all ten. I'm still rather opposed to your claim-idea.
Quote from Clayton »
The better question is why we still have some players that haven't posted since the replacements. RAVUS! I'm talking to you.
Wasn't it made known here? I've been out sick and injured for a week.
Finally, Clayton claims to have lost his role for having spoken of it, rendering it unprovable? Fair enough. My suspicion remains with Clayton, but if it hadn't, I'd unvote and move it to jobomon, who, for now, I'll throw a FoS toward.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Imagine scantily-clad women in a leud embrace,
one stretched out and victim to a chokehold of the other,
both with big stupid grins spreading across their faces.]
I geuss we have to agree to disagree. I obviously think its a good idea and you obviously oppose it. We both think that our opponent's case is extremely weak and lacks little support. I don't really know what else to add besides I don't like the tone clayton's done from all of this. He has attacks you only after you begin to be more accusing of what I'm saying, opportunism, and is bashing me for doing the same things he tried to do with his first claim idea, and tries to say how he never even did them
FOS: Clayton
what the hell are you talking about. I agree full heartnelly with cyouni. And when did I if deny asking for guild claim on the 2 second or first page.
Dimir+Selsnya+Rakdos=Selsnya wants world domination and dimir and rakdos want in.
Azorius+Boros+Orzhov=Once again control of city, loses freedom.
I have to disagree with your thoughts on the "evil" and "good" guilds in Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension.
Evil Guilds: Dimir, Golgari, Gruul, Rakdos, Simic and maybe Orzhov.
Good Guilds: Boros, Selesnya, Izzet, Azorius.
I have never actually read any books or anything but I am basing my thoughts on the color combinations. I might be uneducated on this topic, but It's just my opinion on the matter.
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
does that answer your question?
Wait sorry, why are you voting me? Can you explain again?
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
What are everyone's thoughts on the following three people, and why?
1) clayton
2) Sir Auron
3) lucknorris
For that matter, where is everyone? (I'll post my thoughts on the three when I'm done some more of my work.)
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
yes my explanation of my ability is explained.
@cyouni
1. something about him I like:rolleyes:
2. Sir auron in my opinion is just wagon hopping, following the crowds like a sheep. I don't like it. after re-reading my vote was suppose to make a point on OMGUS, so unvote.
3. lucknorris comes off more newb town than scum or newb scum. He does explain himself better after he is ran through the wringer, He cracks under pressure at first.
Luck and SirA caught my eye early on as scum buds.
To start. SA's Post 33 looks like a way to hide behind fearmongering and game'n the mod, and throwing out what not to claim.
In post 105 this is said
What? Is there a problem with scum worrying?
Luck's post 36 is fishing for a safe claim.
This doesn't look to good for Luck here.
Is afraid of the spotlight. A slow moving game with deadlines is better for scum. Don't try and smear someone for scumhunting.
Plus the game was slow and of all the players to point out that aren't scummy for doing nothing he fingures SA. Noted.
At this point I'm fine with either one but will vote Sir Auron
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Soft claim: one of you're colors.
Basically say what one of you're colors from you're guildpact leader dude's guild is. This will limit claims the scum can do and will us catch them falseclaiming without outing anybody as a certian guilt.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
I don't really see how that would help the town very much. It barely gives us any information, and the scum still have just about the same false claim opportunities.
It limits the scum's claims.
Example:
Person A claims blue, Person B claims blue, Person D claims blue, Person E claims blue, and person F claims blue. We know that one of these is scum.
It would probably work even better if we say if we're an allied pair or an enemy pair.
Person A claims Allied Blue, Person B Claims allied blue, Person C claims Allied blue.
One of those is scum
Ok?
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
An allied or enemy pair in addition to one of you're colors.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
It gains nothing.
It definitely gains at least a little of something, without hurting the town by giving too much information away.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
...except for that character whose guild's purpose was to destroy the Guildpact...that one's pretty obvious...
I'll answer my own question in detail probably tomorrow or something...right now I'd be willing to guess clayton as town and Sir Auron + lucknorris as probable scum.
joboman, how do you feel about Sir Auron?
Once again, where is everyone?
Could you please highlight some of his more scummy posts? Seriously, I'd be very helpful.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
To here...suddenly stating that clayton's not scummy, but not townie either. Also attacking lurkers.
To here. Now clayton's become scummy, which he gave no indication of in previous posts. At this point, multiple people expressed their suspicion of clayton, and this seems primed to attempt to play to that. Same with the suspicion of lucknorris here. This last part only applies if either one pops as scum.
FOS: Sir Auron25
I'd like to state now that I'd be happy with pursuing either SA or Lucknorris
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
Anyway, about the one colour claim thing, why? Anyone can simply lie without anyone knowing. For example, if someone here was scum, they can simply say "white" and then people would say "oh, white isn't generally an evil colour, he must be town." Or if a towny says "white" people might get suspicious because they might think he's lying to them. Just my two cents.
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem
In my defense, you must also realize how Clayton was acting. I was not the only one arguing against the name claim idea Clayton put forward, and as he kept failing to see the logic everyone else presented, I felt it was a scum tell at the time in that he refused to see everyone else's point of view. When I said he was acting the most scummy/least townie, I was trying to say that his name claim idea was not in the best interest of the town, which I automatically inferred that he was at least anti-town in his thinking (maybe not really aware of it, but I saw it as an anti-town idea). And honestly, at the time, it was the most scum-like thing going on since we have already had one slow D1 at that point, claytons idea being the first big idea to get presented.
@ The one color claim: I honestly think its a bad idea and a waste of time. We almost have to assume that certain guilds are scum, which will get us nowhere quickly. Furthermore, claiming allied or enemy pairs gets us nowhere even quicker since knowing whether someone is "allied or enemy" holds absolutely no weight. Each person gets narrowed down to 5 guilds. The natural progression is a guild claim, which is a bad idea as well.
That last part is almost the exact definition of WIFOM. I'm also against the one color claim though, because what joboman said would only happen if everyperson who had the as one of their guild colors decided to claim that one color...AND the scum claimed the same color. Probably not going to happen. More likely is that we get 2 or 3 in each color, and that won't help us at all.
That's not the main point. The main point is that in between those three posts, your tone regarding clayton shifts so that it can align with what the town in general thinks of him. Nice strawman though.
In between those three posts of yours, clayton said absolutely nothing related to his bad claim idea, aside from withdrawing it. The third post specifically states that he's scummy, which you had not made any mention of previously. In fact, it would be more in the opposite direction - you answered clayton as though he were town, then avoided calling him scummy in the second post. Try again with a better response.
Those of you who haven't commented on clayton's claim, comment.
@ Luck, I take it your against the claim right? You didn't come out and state it. More like asking questions toward it. Presenting both sides of the fence. Something to wiggle around later?
@ Gigas, Comments on the claim. What about scumhunting? Any feelings toward Luck or SA? Or others?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
1. Limit the Mafia's claims. If they tie into a certain color and if they are an ally or enemy pair then they have to be one of two guilds. This makes it harder for them to claim any guild they want. Limiting their claim makes it harder for them to pick any guild that sounds like a solid claim, and forces them into an unadvantegous situation.
On the other side, this doesn't really help them at all. If people know that I'm part of lets say the Izzet, or the Gruul, Or the Simic guild then its not like that information will actually help them. Because we're talking about guild, not rolename, then this won't help them at all.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
The better question is why we still have some players that haven't posted since the replacements. RAVUS! I'm talking to you.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
1. Do you know what guilds are scum? Do you really think that anyone would stick to the obvious evil guilds and make them scum? With out serious mod gaming you will not know anything with the set up.
2. 4 guilds each share colors, you are not going to have 6 claims of blue. statistically speaking the color pie can easily be navigated through.
3. non ally, ally claims only give us a hint of the plan, more mod gaming is needed to pick the evil ones.
4. Do you really think that AI would make it that easy?
1. I'm not saying that I know what guild are scum. What I AM saying is that it limits false-claims and makes false-claims more likely to look scummy since they only have a limited amount of guilds to choose from.
2. You obviously don't understand what I'm proposing. I am proposing both one of your colors and if you're allied/enemy colors. For Example, I am orange and an enemy pair.
3. This doesn't make any sense.
4. What are you talking about? I'm not saying anything is easy.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
You still haven't given a good reason for why the scum wouldn't just claim their actual colour-set.
Your proposed claim also defines each member of the town with two possible abilities, allowing scum to target power roles. For example, let's take clayton. If he picks Blue, enemy, that's Izzet or Simic. Simic is likely to be doc. Likewise, if he picks Red, enemy, that's Izzet or Boros, and Boros is likely to be cop.
Now we just need a Orzhov lawyer... (For the record, that's a reference to the comic A Lawyer, a Doctor and a Cop)
This is just pure bull. Don't say I'M gaming the mod, when you're the one saying how simic is a doc, and boros is a cop when that doesn't even make any sense.
People claiming their actual color set would make it hard for them to false-claim. If information comes up later regarding a certian guild then we might be glad that we have people's guilds roughly figured out.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
I don't think you get it. Why would anyone false claim? Regardless if your boros or simic or whatever, there is no reason to assume that any particular clan is scum, hence a false claim wouldn't be necessary. All your doing is allowing various clans to expose themselves for no reason. A guild or color claim is useless.
Since you don't seem to understand, answer me this before we proceed:
Why would they need to false-claim their colour pair?
Yes. You can't just game the mod like that. thats WAAAY too much.
They wouldn't. If they were forced to do their actual claim eventually their role will sound scummy if they are scum.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
You're not thinking. They obviously wouldn't claim their actual abilities. So let's rephrase that question.
Considering that scum won't claim their actual abilities, why wouldn't they claim their true colour-pair?
Actually, I've never been scum before, or even a non-town faction. That includes this game of course
But I am. If their claim sounds scummy because they are scum then we would have more reason to believe he is scum.
Because they might think its scummy, i don't know. You're completley right here. The thing is limiting mafia's claim options is always a good thing. if further clues are presented or something like that the information could prove to be very useful, and it doesn't hurt.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
But let me make you aware of a few things. First - the scum know who each other are, as well as their abilities. That, of course, would mean that they have ample resources to game the mod by comparing 2-3 abilities to their rolenames. If they match, then it would be reasonable for them to guess that the pattern would continue. Second - any hint that you give a scum as to which power roles belong to which townies is a bad thing. I can say, personally, that I, as scum, argued for the NK of our mod in Basic #10 because I guessed he was a cop, based on his sudden change of behaviour toward me. He was a watcher, but that's beside the point. If the scum can take out a valuable power role, then they will do that. Exposing any information on power roles should be avoided unless there is a massive benefit. There is not a massive benefit in this case.
"If their claim sounds scummy." There are two problems with this statement.
First: Why would you force some random person to claim in the first place?
Second: Why would a scum claim abilities that are obviously scum? (For this, we're assuming that the scum can think better than jordman, who claimed a scummy character in SoT Mafia)
Like I said, it hurts the town badly for little benefit. See above.
Ahem. Sorry about that.
So I was correct about your ability being lost as a result of you revealing it?
I geuss we have to agree to disagree. I obviously think its a good idea and you obviously oppose it. We both think that our opponent's case is extremely weak and lacks little support. I don't really know what else to add besides I don't like the tone clayton's done from all of this. He has attacks you only after you begin to be more accusing of what I'm saying, opportunism, and is bashing me for doing the same things he tried to do with his first claim idea, and tries to say how he never even did them
FOS: Clayton
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
1) probably town
2) No real read
3) most person likely to be scum
No-one is going to do that, each person has two colors, and really black is the only one people would consider a scum tell.
Congratulation this game is still on the useless speculation stage. Soft claim won't work, also think a bit like this. There are many guilds that culd be considered scummy, infact i can think of reasons for each guild being scummy. Or are scum with other teams.
Dimir+Selsnya+Rakdos=Selsnya wants world domination and dimir and rakdos want in.
Azorius+Boros+Orzhov=Once again control of city, loses freedom.
Basicly it dosen't matter what you claim, AI isn't going to make it that simple.
E.G Golgari could be there just as rountine and are curretnly happy with the way things are, they might want to keep it that way, same with dimir, rakdos or any uild, it dosen't matter.
STOP MODDING THE GAME AND USING USELESS SPECULATION.
However i do agree on pressuring SA.
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
Recreating it now.
I'm not sure I would've made the same assessment. If I were asking these questions and my responses came across as guesswork and vague, I would presume him to be pulling things out of his ass to support his claim, which would further illustrate in my mind that it was a false claim. How did you come to the conclusion he was likely town, given those circumstances?
My thoughts have already been extensively covered on Clayton and Lucknorris, but for Sir Auron, which I vaguely recall having touched on, I feel he could be scum, but something makes me think bad/new town. Pending further analysis.
This only really works if these three theoretical people all claim blue as their colour, doesn't it? Furthermore, we're back to the "let's claim information that doesn't necessarily give us any information, but gives the scum useful information". For this reason, I am opposed.
I find it hard to believe you read through the game, with all the controversy over Clayton and lucknorris (and to a lesser extent, Auron), and not have an opinion one way or another. The further you get into this game, the scummier you're looking to me.
I think you're looking at this backward. This sort of claim idea would give them more information as to what not to claim. And again, claiming their own actual alignment wouldn't necessarily give them away as scum, unless you make a very mod-gaming presumption that he'd make the obvious guilds scum. Still further, there are four black-aligned guilds, and not all four of them can be scum. Blue is a shifty colour, there adds three more guilds. The Gruul dislike society and tore down their own guildhouse, that seems like enough motivation to be pegged as scummy. That's eight guilds whose mere flavour gives aimless suspicion to, and I'm sure an argument could be made for all ten. I'm still rather opposed to your claim-idea.
Wasn't it made known here? I've been out sick and injured for a week.
Finally, Clayton claims to have lost his role for having spoken of it, rendering it unprovable? Fair enough. My suspicion remains with Clayton, but if it hadn't, I'd unvote and move it to jobomon, who, for now, I'll throw a FoS toward.
what the hell are you talking about. I agree full heartnelly with cyouni. And when did I if deny asking for guild claim on the 2 second or first page.
You said that you're intentions were to "just get the game moving" I've heard this excuse time and time again, and it is always scummy.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
I have to disagree with your thoughts on the "evil" and "good" guilds in Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension.
Evil Guilds: Dimir, Golgari, Gruul, Rakdos, Simic and maybe Orzhov.
Good Guilds: Boros, Selesnya, Izzet, Azorius.
I have never actually read any books or anything but I am basing my thoughts on the color combinations. I might be uneducated on this topic, but It's just my opinion on the matter.
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem