I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
The ball of incandescent gas rose on today and some idle accusations were thrown around until everyone turned to Nom_Anor. You start to surround him, when he runs for a door.
Sadly, this door causes Nom fall two-stories directly into a vat of Hydrochloric Acid.
You decide to check his room to find out who he is. There's some poisons, many different ways to set things on fire, and a picture of Emperor Popeatine Pope Benedict XVI.
Nom_Anor was The Catholic Church, Serial Killer
It is now Night 1. Please send me your night actions by Wednesday at 6PM CST (midnight GMT). The earlier you get them all to me, the more likely I am to get Day 2 started on time.
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Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
You wake up and find Gamerz missing. You find his room and find his body with his head bludgeoned by a small object. You look around his room and find some gold foil, a geiger counter, and an X-Ray spectrometer.
Gamerz was Ernest Rutherford, One-Shot Vig
You mourn the loss of a valued member of the science community.
You realize there's still lots of work to do.
With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
(Sorry for the lack of flavor, I'm not on my main computer so... it kind of sucks)
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"People" were lurking, and you fully admit to being "all fluff." Not sure what you're referring to when you say I was "interrogating people as to their votes," or how that would be a scumtell for you. And not sure what you're talking about with Gamerz. What makes "interrogation" a necessary prerequisite to voting someone?
The question isn't about what your basis is, the question is about contradicting reads: you say you're neutral/leaning town but then say you're neutral/leaning scum. What changed?
From what I've read, Zebi comes across as town to me. He doesn't (didn't?) seem to have any obvious scum traits, although the current turn of events is making me think twice about it.
This is an extremely generalized answer to the question. Can you name something specific that makes Zebi read town to you? What were the "current turn of events" that made you think twice and why?
Vote Dragon Dart. His play yesterday was reminiscent of the "outsider" scum-stereotype (taking the stances opposite from the vocal majority of the town, to the point where it becomes ridiculous). Plus, he is the single scummiest person alive.
Also, after some reading tonight I feel a little better about Bman (up from scum to neutral-scum) and little worse about Kraj (down from town to neutral-town).
Could you be any vaguer, please? Not following the "vocal majority of the town" doesn't make me scum. And calling me scummy doesn't make it so either.
How about your stances on the rest of the players in the game? Or more detail on what makes you think better of bman and worse of Kraj, specifically?
I have a larger post waiting in the wings, but it'd be best to hold off on it for the moment.
Yes, not following the vocal majority of the town makes you scum if you only do it to show you can. If you wanted your voice to be heard, you wouldn't have spent most of your posts minding your own business and weakly poking whoever and whoever else.
Care to provide specific examples of your observations? My reaction to your post was the same as DragonDart's.
I've got alarm bells ringing. Someone's trying to discredit his attacker there.
Asking you to qualify your attacks/opinions with specifics is completely reasonable; why does it cause 'alarm bells' ? And um, it seems kind of weird to refer to alarm bells when you're already calling him scum.
About Kraj, I realised I only had a town read on him because of how well he responded to iLord's (flawed) case and because of his general tone. Turns out he has no actual town tell, just null tells at best.
What does "null tells at best" mean? What are the town tells you see on other players?
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
It's not even laziness (Well, it is partially), but I'm reading it as Zebi's just finding reasons to criticize Nom's claim. Not sure why though.
What does Zebi gains from this if he's scum ?
No idea - I said as much.
Quote from Johm »
I was starting to believe your claim and was going to try and go for a better re-read on who else might be scum.
However, you admit you lied once. This may or may not mean you lied several times. Which means your claim is now quite irrelevant.
If you do turn out to be town, then I believe Kraj is scum due to his latest post and should be our next investigation. I'm pretty sure you won't come out as town though.
Unvote. Vote Nom_Anor.
Sounds like someone expected Nom to turn up town
Quote from Zebi »
Damn. I wanted to hammer. -_-
So Nom was mafia then? *sigh*
Note to self: Defeatism is always scummy.
I can't figure out what Zebi is thinking here.
Zebi, from what did you conclude that "defeatism" is indicative of scum?
Quote from Zebi »
EBWODP: Nevermind, I read more.
Which part of the previous post is this a "nevermind" to?
Quote from ZDS »
I take it as a compliment.
This is a problem I often have with people in twilight. How can ZDS continue to assume that Nom is scum even after he's claimed town? He has no more incentive to lie here. In this case, it can't be a scumtell since Nom was SK, but I'm interested in what makes ZDS so positive that he's right.
Quote from Zebi »
So I was right about Einstein not using bullets. I need to trust myself more.
Quote from Johm »
This.
If you're pushing for his lynch quite badly and he turns out town... then you must be scum.
How experienced is Johm?
Quote from ZDS »
Also, after some reading tonight I feel a little better about Bman (up from scum to neutral-scum) and little worse about Kraj (down from town to neutral-town).
Don't agree on bman - what makes you feel any better about him? It is obvious that bman didn't think his actions through, but what makes you lean more to townbman now?
------------------------------------
Like most others, going to look over the thread with consideration to Nom and Gamerz, but I think most of the important stuff covering Nom was towards the end with Johm. So far, not a lot of changes from suspicions yesterday, other than Johm seeming scummy.
Yes, not following the vocal majority of the town makes you scum if you only do it to show you can. If you wanted your voice to be heard, you wouldn't have spent most of your posts minding your own business and weakly poking whoever and whoever else.
What makes you think I did it only to show I can, and not because I was posting what I actually thought? For your argument to work you have to actually demonstrate this. And you haven't.
I may not have joined the main bandwagon yesterday (hell, I was completely wrong about Nom_Anor), but I wasn't just weakly poking and staying to myself. How exactly does "staying to myself" track with the suspicion I've come under from you, Seppel, johm000, Kraj and whoever else? You seem to think I didn't participate yesterday, when what actually happened is that I didn't participate in a wagon I didn't agree with, and you did (and I about which I was wrong entirely).
I've got alarm bells ringing. Someone's trying to discredit his attacker there.
Well, my stances are clearly stated in the thread. Did you skip them every time ? (this is a serious question)
Oh, my bad. I didn't realized your opinions didn't change at all after the revelation that Nom_Anor was the Serial Killer, not mafia. It certainly changed mine.
I don't take notes on all your stances in every post you write. You haven't posted any consolidated list or anything. I find it sketchy that the only thing you commented on in your first post of the day is "OMG DD is ObvSCUM!" and excruciatingly minor adjustments to your reads of bman and kraj.
Nice choice of words, too. Alarm bells, indeed.
Oh, and if you meant did I read your stances on ME, then yes I have, and they are weak.
As for Bman and Kraj: Thinking about it, Bman probably had no idea what he was doing. He didn't think his actions through. About Kraj, I realised I only had a town read on him because of how well he responded to iLord's (flawed) case and because of his general tone. Turns out he has no actual town tell, just null tells at best.
EBWODP: Here is the big post I mentioned earlier. I think iLord also mentioned at least one point in here already. Very recent events may not be reflected in this analysis. I wanted to get this into the thread before I leave for the night.
Also, I re-read ZDS, and I now strongly suspect he is the third mafioso, if there are three.
I think johm000 and Seppel are scum buddies. I think we should lynch johm000 first. Vote johm000
On johm000:
In johm000's first post after replacing in, he lists the main target of the town (Nom_Anor) and Seppel's main target of the moment (me).
-His reason for voting me is bad (which "appalling" arguments? how are they appalling? how does a bad argument make someone scum?)
-He also couldn't come up with a good reason that he thought Zebi was town, which reinforces my reading of his town/scum list as artificial and not actually thoughtful.
-It also seems somewhat unlikely (though marginally possible) that 30 minutes after his first post, a townie would be anywhere near a point where he would be comfortable putting forth a list like that.
johm000's response about Zebi gives away his scum mindset.
-He says that Zebi hasn't done anything obviously scummy, but that recent events are changing his mind.
-There have only been 18 posts since he stated in his list that he thought Zebi was definitely town and Nom_Anor was definitely scum. In those posts, Zebi questions Nom_Anor's claim. Why would a townie who thinks Nom_Anor is scum and Zebi is town be concerned in any way by Zebi questioning Nom_Anor about his claim?
-It seems more likely that johm000 is mafia. As mafia, he would presume that both Zebi and N_A are townies, and thus that Zebi was questioning a claim that had to be true (from his perspective, 'cause why would a townie lie?). This is the only way I can think of that this makes sense.
-I also think johm000 changed his position slightly on Zebi here because Seppel had just called Zebi a newb (which was evident by this point), and he mistook that as a signal that Seppel wanted to go after Zebi.
After Seppel posts about being paranoid that people are in the thread, but not posting (and specifically mentions johm000 despite claiming not to remember who it was that he saw), johnm000 justifies himself for doing so, then asks what Seppel thinks of him.
-This post displays johm000's concern for his image, specifically with appearing to be scummy by viewing the thread without posting.
When Seppel responds, indicating that he hasn't been around long enough to form an opinion (which, I might add, has never stopped Seppel before), johm000 bizarrely asks him if he's still intent on lynching Nom_Anor (who I believe was at lynch-1 at the moment).
-This exchange reads to me as johm000 maladroitly asking Seppel what they should do: lynch Nom_Anor, or not.
-Seppel responds that he is 70% for N_A's lynch, at which point...
johm000 hammers Nom_Anor. His language in this post strongly indicates that he is mafia, and believes Nom_Anor to be town.
-Before lynching him, he sort of apologizes to N_A by telling him he was starting to believe him, but now that he's confessed about his false claim, he simply has to vote for him.
-At this point, Nom_Anor was still contending that he was a townie who lied. Mafia would have no reason to think he was still holding anything back. I think he suggested Kraj be a suspect for day 2 "if" N_A flipped town because he thought he KNEW N_A would flip town, and wanted to get Kraj out of the way.
In his final post of day 1 (after the lynch), johm confirms that he thinks Kraj "must" be scum if N_A is town. He also asks if N_A is talking about him not showing up until after he confessed... further demonstrating his concern that other's have spotted him doing something perceived as scummy.
On Seppel:
johm000 tied himself to Seppel at several points, but Seppel also tied himself to BigLlama/johm000 a few times, and made some other general slips.
While Llama was still in the game, Seppel voted him at one point in order to get him to post. This isn't inherently scummy (I did that too, actually), but with everything else here, I think he was trying to tell his partner to start playing the game and not pull the "hey, it's just the random phase! lulz!" excuse.
When Seppel posted his first town/scum list, he "accidentally" put Kraj in the leaning town section before Kraj had actually posted. I now think that was a slip, not an honest mistake.
Seppel
Didn't spam I'M TOWN until requested to do so. Whether or not Seppel has grown, I think he didn't think to do it because he isn't actually town.
Seppel's attitude toward Nom_Anor seems strange at the end of the day. The "alarm bells" post reads to me as a scum trying to play both sides of the wagon. He thinks he's scummy, but his renowned "gut" is telling him otherwise... then he sees ZDS's post about N_A's eagerness to claim/refusal to defend himself as an easy way to hop on the wagon.
I think Seppel's post about people watching the thread and not posting was a blatant attempt to communicate in-thread with johm000, to get him to stop lurking.
-Why else would he claim to not remember who he saw... but also mention that he saw johm000?
-In his next post he claims that the lurking worries him, but he doesn't know what it means. I think he has no idea what it means because what he ACTUALLY thinks it means is that his scumbuddy johm000 looks scummy for having done it.
I think the case on johm000 is a bit stronger, but I am quite confident in my read on both of them at this point. I don't really see another explanation for all of this.
My Town/Scum list:
TOWN
Zebi (would be dumbfounded if scum)
Kraj
iLord
Does Nom's alignment now help you qualify your gut reaction with something specific?
Yes. See my above post. I think I'm getting good enough to hunt down Serial Killers, too.
Now, onto DragonDart's awesome post, which completely negates any negative point I've ever had about her and freaking nails JohnMoo. My only regret is that I didn't see any of it (just wrote him off as newb town).
Vote JohnMoo
HOWEVER, DragonDart's only half-right. It was pretty sweet that you saw all those ties, because I didn't even notice that JohnMoo was basically following my whim, but I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN etc.
johm000 tied himself to Seppel at several points, but Seppel also tied himself to BigLlama/johm000 a few times, and made some other general slips.
While Llama was still in the game, Seppel voted him at one point in order to get him to post. This isn't inherently scummy (I did that too, actually), but with everything else here, I think he was trying to tell his partner to start playing the game and not pull the "hey, it's just the random phase! lulz!" excuse.
Nope. Was trying to get a read on him after learning Gamerz was town since Llama was doing nothing.
When Seppel posted his first town/scum list, he "accidentally" put Kraj in the leaning town section before Kraj had actually posted. I now think that was a slip, not an honest mistake.
Didn't spam I'M TOWN until requested to do so. Whether or not Seppel has grown, I think he didn't think to do it because he isn't actually town.
I was scum in Kingmaker. I grew up. I'm trying to be more mature since I'm apparently a god when it comes to scumhunting. I still love dicking around, though.
Seppel's attitude toward Nom_Anor seems strange at the end of the day. The "alarm bells" post reads to me as a scum trying to play both sides of the wagon. He thinks he's scummy, but his renowned "gut" is telling him otherwise... then he sees ZDS's post about N_A's eagerness to claim/refusal to defend himself as an easy way to hop on the wagon.
"ZDS WAS RIGHT AND SEPPEL AGREED WITH HIM AND WAS RIGHT TOO."
I think Seppel's post about people watching the thread and not posting was a blatant attempt to communicate in-thread with johm000, to get him to stop lurking.
-Why else would he claim to not remember who he saw... but also mention that he saw johm000?
-In his next post he claims that the lurking worries him, but he doesn't know what it means. I think he has no idea what it means because what he ACTUALLY thinks it means is that his scumbuddy johm000 looks scummy for having done it.
Someone else also said they saw someone else in the thread (Nom?). I remember seeing multiple people, JohnMoo was the only one I remembered because his name appears in bold.
I put Nom at L-1 if I recall correctly, and with people showing up but not posting, I was worried that we had either scum lurking or scum on the block.
I still don't know what it means, considering Nom was an SK. Any input anyone?
There's a boatload of things wrong with it, more than I have time to explain now. At least my thoughts from D1 were right, first N_A, then you.
Standard scum tactic, say a post is all wrong for many reasons, then fail to disclose said reasons. I'm sure you had plenty of time to at least list one reason.
Okay, so there's about 9001 questions for me at the moment, and I just got on. I'll try to answer as many as I can but if there's any pressing ones I missed, let me know.
Quote from iLord »
Zebi, from what did you conclude that "defeatism" is indicative of scum?
The majority of the time, I find that anyone who doesn't defend themselves from a looming lynch is trying to WIFOM people into thinking they're town.
"Oh, a scum would defend themselves, so if I don't, people will think I'm not scum"
Quote from iLord »
Which part of the previous post is this a "nevermind" to?
The part where I asked if Nom was mafia or not. Then I read his response.
(Kraj wanted me to answer this)
Quote from DD »
"People" were lurking, and you fully admit to being "all fluff." Not sure what you're referring to when you say I was "interrogating people as to their votes," or how that would be a scumtell for you. And not sure what you're talking about with Gamerz. What makes "interrogation" a necessary prerequisite to voting someone?
I forget what this was about, but I'll try to answer it. Interrogating people to their votes just means prodding them for information as to why they've voted. Generally in my experience, scum are quick to question plays that look poor in order to put suspicion on them, although it's not always scummy. Just sometimes.
And interrogation isn't so much necessary before a vote, but I think it's always for the best to ask people questions and give them a chance to defend themselves before you vote for them. There's always exceptions to rules, but in general, that's how I feel.
Quote from Kraj »
The question isn't about what your basis is, the question is about contradicting reads: you say you're neutral/leaning town but then say you're neutral/leaning scum. What changed?
That list was pretty hard to make with so many people not really contributing. It's obvious that there's a few people hiding in the shadows (intentionally or otherwise) and I didn't want to just jam everyone into the neutral category, so at that point feelings could change based on a single post. I don't actually remember who we're talking about here, but it was probably just a minor overlook - and (for my list, at least) the line between neutral/leaning X was pretty small.
Not quite 9001, but that's all of them since today started. If anyone has anything else for me, let me know.
You seem to be very confident on lynching N_A, emphasis on "right or wrong".
What I gather from this is:
- If you're scum, then you want to push this badly since you know he's not scum.
- If you're town, then you probably have outside info that we don't know about. That or a very good read.
Then, if he comes up as town, the choices are:
- You're scum.
- Your read failed drastically.
Of both, and given that many people had the same read, it is much more likely to be a) than b).
This reads completely like an excuse composed after making the point. Why did you accuse Kraj without stating this reasoning alongside the point - did you expect us to assume it?
Not to mention the reasoning is completely erroneous. Does having a lot of people with the same good read mean that they all are scum?
Additionally, "more likely" and "must" do not indicate the same degree of certitude, further establishing that this point was not what was going through your mind when you accused Kraj.
Quote from Nom »
I fully expected him to turn up scum.
Of course
The post in question here:
Quote from Johm »
I was starting to believe your claim and was going to try and go for a better re-read on who else might be scum.
However, you admit you lied once. This may or may not mean you lied several times. Which means your claim is now quite irrelevant.
If you do turn out to be town, then I believe Kraj is scum due to his latest post and should be our next investigation. I'm pretty sure you won't come out as town though.
Unvote. Vote Nom_Anor.
The "if you do turn out to be town, then I believe Kraj is scum" is perfect for scum trying to setup a double lynch. It stinks of knowing that Nom is going to turn up town. The last line is just attempting to go with the rest of the town - note how soft the language here is.
Additionally, since for relations-wise, Nom did effectively come up town, what do you think about Kraj?
Quote from DD »
I think johm000 and Seppel are scum buddies. I think we should lynch johm000 first.
Vote johm000
Disagree on the scumbuddy part, but you definitely beat me to the punch on Johm
Quote from DD »
johm000's response about Zebi gives away his scum mindset.
-He says that Zebi hasn't done anything obviously scummy, but that recent events are changing his mind.
-There have only been 18 posts since he stated in his list that he thought Zebi was definitely town and Nom_Anor was definitely scum. In those posts, Zebi questions Nom_Anor's claim. Why would a townie who thinks Nom_Anor is scum and Zebi is town be concerned in any way by Zebi questioning Nom_Anor about his claim?
We'd have to check back on this but Johm has answered this point by saying that he felt Zebi was "wavering" too much "for his taste." If in those 18 posts, Zebi did nothing of the such, Johm has some explaining to do.
Quote from DD »
johm000 hammers Nom_Anor. His language in this post strongly indicates that he is mafia, and believes Nom_Anor to be town.
-Before lynching him, he sort of apologizes to N_A by telling him he was starting to believe him, but now that he's confessed about his false claim, he simply has to vote for him.
Agreed completely
Quote from DD »
When Seppel posted his first town/scum list, he "accidentally" put Kraj in the leaning town section before Kraj had actually posted. I now think that was a slip, not an honest mistake.
I doubt it. town or scumSeppel would've probably checked the thread for Kraj's posts if he didn't remember him posting. He probably thought he saw a post by him.
Quote from DD »
Didn't spam I'M TOWN until requested to do so. Whether or not Seppel has grown, I think he didn't think to do it because he isn't actually town.
I'm inclined to think that this a null point considering Kingmaker.
Quote from Seppel »
HOWEVER, DragonDart's only half-right. It was pretty sweet that you saw all those ties, because I didn't even notice that JohnMoo was basically following my whim, but I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN etc.
Quote from Johm »
This is nearly a nice try.
Let's see. If I was mafia... why on earth would I expect N_A to flip town... if I know who all the scum are?
I changed my view on Zebi slightly because he wavered in his counter-argument with N_A.
Actually, this post is a complete joke.
There's a boatload of things wrong with it, more than I have time to explain now. At least my thoughts from D1 were right, first N_A, then you.
Can we just get on with lynching the scum now?
Vote: DartDragon
Nom is SK. Mafia do not know who the SK is. You know this. Trying to fake ignorance does not work.
"Complete joke" does not respond to anything.
I'm assuming that you will explain later when you have more time.
The last time is an amusing attempt at disrailing the case.
V/LA STARTING THURSDAY AT 3 PM EST (31 hours from now)
AND ENDING LIKE MONDAY AT 7 PM EST (a total of 100 hours).
As always, if I'm ever posting at those times, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. If it's not day in Ghost Town Mafia before I leave, Jobie, let them know about my v/la plz.
EBWODP: We're only looking for two scum. Three + SK would be ridiculously impossible to win (two mislynches and we lose).
I dunno, I think I've seen three mafia and 1 SK a lot in minis, more so than 2 +SK.
Quote from Zebi »
The majority of the time, I find that anyone who doesn't defend themselves from a looming lynch is trying to WIFOM people into thinking they're town.
"Oh, a scum would defend themselves, so if I don't, people will think I'm not scum"
So this was inherent knowledge that you knew before the game? I was under the impression that you concluded something from the posts immediately prior.
Quote from Johm »
Now, can we get the formalities over and lynch DD already?
This repeated assertions that you have blown the attack out of the park is completely feigned. You must know that you're losing several valid arguments against you.
I said this before, but you probably missed it - the main thing that put Zebi as town is the fact he's acting exactly like I would/have as newb town. The only difference is that towards the end if his argument against N_A, he started wavering. This is partically agreed to by iLord, when he noticed that his claim analysis was off.
You're not noting that I believed it was faked.
Quote from Johm »
I can be concerned with the wayhe carries out said questioning.
The point that I'm interested in here is what inspired you to change your mind on Zebi within the span of those 18 posts.
Quote from Johm »
"[...]I'm pretty sure you won't come out as town though.". A lot of emphasis on "won't"
Emphasis on "pretty sure."
Quote from Johm »
I posted my views on why I think I ought to hammer. N_A, at this point, was obvscum, just as you were, so I was fine with waiting a day to lynch you.
I love how the greater the pressure on you, the more "certain" you are that DD is scum.
Quote from Johm »
I suggested Kraj as a suspect if N_A flipped town due to his strong language against his lynch. It wasnt a "we maybe should do this", it was a "do this, now, whatever the cost". If he knew N_A was town (by being scum), then he'd be all towards getting rid of him.
If scumKraj knew that N_A was town, he'd hardly be interested in expressing such certitude that N_A is going to turn up scum, other than to appear town.
Quote from ZDS »
-Why is this bad ?
-Because "recent events are changing his mind" ?
-Or Johm truly had second thoughts about Zebi.
-Speculation.
Were there any pertinent "recent events" in the period before he changed his mind?
Quote from ZDS »
For a complete newcomer, lack of confidence in the lynch is much more often than not a town tell. False sense of duty as well.
-(see above)
-There's nothing wrong with this if we give Johm the benefit of doubt.
Problem here is in my post - there's too many hints that he anticipated that Nom would turn up town.
ZDS's case on me seems weak to me, but I'll address it for completeness' sake. Yes, I "picked" at people. If you look at any game I've ever played in, you'll see I always do that (and have still never been scum). Lurking (especially plain sight lurking) is one of my biggest mafia pet peeves, and I point it out often. It often takes me a while to get going (as evidenced by my day 1 play).
Your other points are my vote on Gamerz and my apparent failure to defend Nom_Anor to prevent a lynch.
With Gamerz, I was unsure, and spun in circles. You've yet to explain why this could only have come from a scum mindset, or what benefit this would have provided me if I were scum.
Now, onto DragonDart's awesome post, which completely negates any negative point I've ever had about her and freaking nails JohnMoo. My only regret is that I didn't see any of it (just wrote him off as newb town).
I can feel the false enthusiasm radiating from this. I think you've overcompensated a bit for the feelings you actually have for my post.
What do you say to ZDS's recent attempts to paint johm000 as a newb townie, since you so strongly believe that he is scum now?
Nope. Was trying to get a read on him after learning Gamerz was town since Llama was doing nothing.
So why Llama, specifically, and not the other players who were doing nothing?
Nope. I mixed up leaning town and no read.
You don't need to respond to this. You've already offered your explanation. I think you are lying, and that it was a subconscious tell. I agree with the point others have made that this isn't so much something that demonstrates you are scum as something that reinforces my opinion that you are scum and that this wasn't an honest mistake (though I fully agree that it was a mistake :)).
I was scum in Kingmaker. I grew up. I'm trying to be more mature since I'm apparently a god when it comes to scumhunting. I still love dicking around, though.
Yeah, I think this is the weakest point here.
"ZDS WAS RIGHT AND SEPPEL AGREED WITH HIM AND WAS RIGHT TOO."
wat.
You missed the other part: the "alarm bells" vs. your gut, thus allowing yourself to jump on the wagon, but give yourself a plausible excuse when he came up town. I imagine it would have looked like this: "Oh drat, I should have trusted my gut! Shucks!"
Someone else also said they saw someone else in the thread (Nom?). I remember seeing multiple people, JohnMoo was the only one I remembered because his name appears in bold.
Yes, ZDS said he saw Nom. And Nom said he was not online during that period, and it was impossible that anyone had seen him online. And ZDS said "Psshhh, whatever." And then the day ended.
I put Nom at L-1 if I recall correctly, and with people showing up but not posting, I was worried that we had either scum lurking or scum on the block.
Oh really? Why were you worried about that?
I still don't know what it means, considering Nom was an SK. Any input anyone?
I don't think it really means anything... and I think you know that and are playing dumb.
EBWODP: We're only looking for two scum. Three + SK would be ridiculously impossible to win (two mislynches and we lose).
Noted that you dismiss the possibility of three mafia out of hand as entirely impossible. If we have two mafia, it's you and johm000. If we have three, I think ZDS would be the third, but I'm less certain of my read on him.
Excuse me? You have yet to give any specific examples at all of why you think I'm scum. You just quote my posts, say they are "a joke" or that my arguments are "appalling," then vote me, and repeat some variation of "C'mon everybody, lynch the scum!"
Tell me why I shouldn't believe he is scum.
Irony FTL. Maybe you should state WHY you think I'm scum, rather than re-stating THAT you think I'm scum.
Quote from "Johm000" »
And I asked him because I wasn't sure. I'd rather be sure of everything before making a move.
So... you asked Seppel to make sure Seppel was okay with the lynch happening then, but didn't ask anybody else on the wagon the same thing? That hardly sounds like you were making sure of "everything," just Seppel.
You missed the other part: the "alarm bells" vs. your gut, thus allowing yourself to jump on the wagon, but give yourself a plausible excuse when he came up town. I imagine it would have looked like this: "Oh drat, I should have trusted my gut! Shucks!"
Except my gut didn't say scum. It said what I can now qualify as "not town."
Worried because scum could be lurking while waiting for us to lynch a townie, or worried that scum could be lurking hoping that the wagon of the scum on the block would just blow over. Duh.
Noted that you dismiss the possibility of three mafia out of hand as entirely impossible. If we have two mafia, it's you and johm000. If we have three, I think ZDS would be the third, but I'm less certain of my read on him.
It is in my experience that a weak town only has to beat two scum:
Kingmaker - 12 players, 2 scum
Tachronic - 12 players, 3 scum, 1 SK (town was given tons of power)
Dictionary - 12 players, the equivalent of 2 scum, 1 SK
One game I played on Mafiascum (yes I cheated on you all and it felt good) - 12 players, 2 scum, 1 SK
-You're talking about a newb here. Don't assume he knows the difference between bad argument and scummy argument; even experience players make the mistake sometimes.
-By this standard, every gut read is a scum tell.
-30 minutes after his first post and God knows how many hours after reading and possibly re-reading the thread upon replacing.
He has made no effort whatsoever to even explain what arguments he's talking about, much less what about them bothers him. Even if he doesn't know the difference, he hasn't explained what he doesn't like. AT ALL. He just keeps saying I'm so ridiculously scummy that I need to get lynched.
His complete inability to even comment on what he didn't like about me in the first place indicates to me that he DOESN'T KNOW, because he was just barning Seppel and you.
Sure, he COULD have been reading along the whole while. But his first post SAID he was just about to start a read through, didn't it?
-Why is this bad ?
-Because "recent events are changing his mind" ?
-Or Johm truly had second thoughts about Zebi.
-Speculation.
I don't buy his explanation of why his mind changed (Zebi was not being confident enough). He's also now backtracked and said his mind never changed to begin with.
Ok argument.
So, why do you give him benefit of the doubt?
-Interpretation.
Why yes. That is an interpretation, isn't it. What do YOU think was going on there?
For a complete newcomer, lack of confidence in the lynch is much more often than not a town tell. False sense of duty as well.
-(see above)
-There's nothing wrong with this if we give Johm the benefit of doubt.
It's not just lack of confidence in the lynch. Since when does "lack of confidence" include an attempt to set up a Day 2 lynch? Why would you give johm000 the benefit of the doubt, anyway?
Ok argument.
Why yes, he demonstrates AGAIN that he is concerned with his image, and that he is serious about Kraj being absolutely scum if Nom_Anor flips town. What on EARTH is the townie point of view where this post makes sense?
Most of this case only paints Johm under a bad light if you look him over with scum-coloured glasses in the first place. Taking a more neutral standpoint, we see other ways to explain his actions. Ways that don't involve pure speculation and pure interpretation.
God forbid we INTERPRET PLAY.
Speculation.
Speculation.
Speculation.
Ok argument.
-Speculation.
-Interpretation.
This case fails to show Seppel is scum. What it does is assume Seppel is scum, and then work backwards from there. Pretty much the same as the Johm case, but worse.
Considering that I determined Seppel was scum after spotting johm000, this probably is what happened. I don't see johm000's interactions with Seppel as interaction between townies. Do you?
On second thoughts, I was fine with the case because it was well written and brings about some decent arguments, but upon closer inspection it's all completely wrong. DragonDart paints Johm and Seppel as scum, but completely fails to give a solid argument why they're scum in the first place. All of this can be summed up by: "X is scum, therefore what he did is scummy".
I did not completely fail to do that. You even said that you think the johm000 case has some okay points, and that the Seppel case was worse. Then you lump them together here and characterize them both as useless and misleading. Do you think they are of equal (poor) merit, or do you think the case on johm000 is at least somewhat stronger?
Point taken. But I still can't get over the fact you prodded every single newb and lurker. What gives ? Where's the town incentive behind this ?
It prods people to contribute something to the thread, so that we don't end up in endgame with lurkers who've never said anything of importance because nobody paid attention to them. You still haven't demonstrated any scum motivation for this, either. I'll assume since you didn't cite one, you can't think of any.
I did roughly the same thing in Led Zep (attack a player long after the original heat was gone), as scum. I didn't feel like I could make a decent case on anyone else, but I did feel like I had to attack at least someone (in short it's an image tell). I see no reason not to think your thought process was similar. After all, you had just been asked for more opinions.
I do see something wrong with you assuming we think and act alike, even given similar circumstances. Note to ZDS: I am not you. And I already explained why I voted Gamerz when I did. It was because I was looking back at something else, noticed it again, and it bothered me.
For the record, this is quite different from what I said. He's the one who dropped down the subject after his alibi failed to work.
This is what actually happened:
Quote from "#235 ZDS" »
I've seen Nom_Anor.
No post during the night surprises me.
Quote from "#245 N_A" »
That is an utter lie. I was not on here from about 5:30(eastern time) last night to right now, since I was at concert followed by all night gaming till 4 this morning.
ZDS is so scum.
Quote from "#247 ZDS" »
1) No its not.
2) We don't live in the same timezone. Maybe for you it was morning or afternoon when I saw you, when for me it was night. It doesn't make a difference, and you're really stretching hard for a way to make me look like a liar.
Quote from "#249 N_A" »
And ZDS, timezones make no difference here. Because from the time seppel made his post 233 to when you make your "I saw Nom" post, I was NEVER online.
Quote from "#250 ZDS" »
Then maybe you were online before that. I don't remember when exactly I saw you online, I don't keep track of your every movements. You're really pulling hair here.
Quote from "#263 N_A" »
Plus, he conveniently did not come post until after I confessed.
Quote from "#264 ZDS" »
You saw him online ?
How did his "alibi fail to work"? He stopped insisting yes, but that's probably because you were being dismissive and saying he didn't know when he was online. What happens near the end of this is that you backtrack on your original claim (presumably you saw him some time in the vicinity of Seppel's post, or it wouldn't have been relevant in the first place). "I don't keep track of your every movements." is a weak comeback to "you said I was online around this time, but that is impossible."
Then you taunt/mock him just before the day ends. Why?
I feel regret that you have found not one, but two scum before me.
Right.
Except my gut didn't say scum. It said what I can now qualify as "not town."
That's not what you said, though. You made it fairly clear that by behavior you thought he was scum, but your gut was making you think twice. You are retroactively applying a "gut" response that you didn't have at the time in an effort to justify your post.
Um, what?
Worried because scum could be lurking while waiting for us to lynch a townie, or worried that scum could be lurking hoping that the wagon of the scum on the block would just blow over. Duh.
You were worried a scum was on the chopping block, and that because nobody was posting in the middle of the night the wagon was stalling, even though it was at Lynch-1?
I thought you had made a slip and meant to type "town" instead of scum in the second part, but this explanation makes even less sense...
It is in my experience that a weak town only has to beat two scum:
Kingmaker - 12 players, 2 scum
Tachronic - 12 players, 3 scum, 1 SK (town was given tons of power)
Dictionary - 12 players, the equivalent of 2 scum, 1 SK
One game I played on Mafiascum (yes I cheated on you all and it felt good) - 12 players, 2 scum, 1 SK
I trust you understand.
With what information did you conclude the power level of the entire town as compared to the scum in this particular game? Your examples show that the number of mafia varies in games with serial killers... that doesn't prove your point. It actually demonstrates the opposite. You are either baselessly gaming the mod and stating your speculation as fact, or you have more information about the setup (either knowledge of the town's power level as a whole, or the actual number of mafia members) than any single townie can have, and forgot that townies don't know what you do.
That's not what you said, though. You made it fairly clear that by behavior you thought he was scum, but your gut was making you think twice. You are retroactively applying a "gut" response that you didn't have at the time in an effort to justify your post.
[...]
I thought you had made a slip and meant to type "town" instead of scum in the second part, but this explanation makes even less sense...
With what information did you conclude the power level of the entire town as compared to the scum in this particular game? Your examples show that the number of mafia varies in games with serial killers... that doesn't prove your point. It actually demonstrates the opposite. You are either baselessly gaming the mod and stating your speculation as fact, or you have more information about the setup (either knowledge of the town's power level as a whole, or the actual number of mafia members) than any single townie can have, and forgot that townies don't know what you do.
These points are more concrete than anything else in your prior cases against him and Johm00. Why no vote here?
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There's a lot to take in and sort out here, but it's time for a mod prod on WoD and jskura. Neither have posted since the 13th and both have been online multiple times since day 2 started.
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It would have been far scummier if he didn't agree (or "barn") anyone in his first relevant post.
That doesn't refute the point, just points out that had he done something totally different it would have been scummier. Whoop dee doo.
Ask him.
I include it as a point against him in a case. He does not mention having read for hours. YOU do. I am obligated to ask him how much he read, even though his post clearly implies that he was about to go do the read right then. No.
Maybe he didn't backtrack. Maybe we're the ones who badly interpreted him.
I mean, it makes no sense for him to lie here. It can only do him wrong. Think about it.
Because newbs never make mistakes as scum and do things that can only do them wrong in an attempt to back off from or justify something they did before. Oh wait, they actually do that all the time.
Because the town tells far overweigh the possible scum tells.
Different reads. I disagree.
Because I've seen that exact scenario before, multiple times. Experienced player makes a strong push for the lynch, inexperienced town player deduces he must be scum if the soon-to-be-lynched player is town (because only scum would push this hard for a town lynch, they think).
And I've seen the exact scenario where inexperienced scum try to set up a mislynch if a certain player flips town. It's an appealing tactic for scum, because they KNOW the player will flip scum.
Start interpreting his play from a neutral perspective and then you can be sarcastic.
No such thing as a neutral perspective.
Where have you seen scum "communicate" directly in thread before ?
Scum generally keep their interaction to a minimum.
Remember, this is a newb we're talking about here, as you've emphasized so much elsewhere. Why do you assume a newb would know not to do that (or fail to do it as subtly as they think they are doing it)? [/quote]
The case on Johm is a little stronger, but its still flawed.
K.
I've never witnessed a townie be this thorough in his fight against lurkers. They always find something better to do at some point. Ironically, that you didn't screams of plain sight lurking.
I do tend to prod lurkers, and I've only ever been town. I also tend to have little to add on Day 1, before there are any bodies. Generally I pick up around day 2, when there is more robust information available. You can call my day 1 play plain-sight lurking if you feel like it, but calling it scummy for it shows a failure to consider who you're talking about, despite having played with me before.
The similarities are too strong. That's the exact same excuse I used.
You're just claiming that I did something you did, and because you were scum when you did it, I must have the same motivations you did and must also therefore be scum. I've already provided my thought process for the vote on Gamerz. You don't believe me, and I don't really care that you don't believe me because I already explained it all I can.
Alright, put on your thinking cap and look.
Remember what N_A said:
Now remember what I said:
Now look back and find the time stamps for my last post before #233 (conveniently enough, it's #232). Do you see the time difference now ?
N_A being absent after #233 is completely irrelevant, because I had seen him hours before that.
For fun.
Point taken.
@Kraj: Your posting style is completely different from your posting style yesterday. What's changed?
It doesn't refute the point, but it shows it's not that scummy.
But it is scummy. If a tell exists, it is fairly irrelevant that another stronger tell doesn't. Pointing out the hypothetical just minimizes what's actually present instead of arguing against it.
Newbs aren't idiots.
So you don't think newbs have a tendency to backpeddle when under suspicion as scum? Many do. And you also apparently think johm000 is astute for a newb? Some newbs ARE idiots, actually.
You must mean "will flip town".
How would you qualify the number of times you've seen this happen ?
I don't know, and I'm not digging back through every game I'm ever played/read to verify it for you.
More details please.
This is bigger than the game. I just think claims to neutrality and objectivity are bunk, as they are always seated within a specific, non-neutral context.
Newbs aren't idiots.
Again, not ALL newbs are idiots. But some are, and you don't even have to be a total idiot to think others won't notice small interactions with your scum buddy in the thread. Sometimes scum avoid each other like the plague, and sometimes there are scum who are too clingy with their buddies.
I checked. The only game we've played together before was VR: Salvation.
I read the first twelve or so pages. You barely concerned yourself with any lurker at all, and the two times you did, you just took the initiative. And you didn't prod anyone.
Turns out I wasn't having a memory lapse after all.
I could have sworn we'd been in more games together. I guess I've read along with games you were in that I didn't actually play in. Makes more sense that you're not aware of how I tend to play. Maybe I didn't do it as much in VR: Salvation. In any case, my point is that this isn't unusual play for me, as you'll see if you look at more than the first 12 pages of a single game (in which I was actually also a jester).
There's a lot to take in and sort out here, but it's time for a mod prod on WoD and jskura. Neither have posted since the 13th and both have been online multiple times since day 2 started.
Consider it done. WoD and Jskura have been prodded.
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Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
There's a lot to take in and sort out here, but it's time for a mod prod on WoD and jskura. Neither have posted since the 13th and both have been online multiple times since day 2 started.
I was typing up a post earlier, then when I went to the bathroom my flatmate jumped on my computer and started playing cod: MW2 on it. He closed my browser too.
I do have tunnel vision right now, but I'm damn sure that I'm right. I've apparently been really bad at communicating my reads on johm000 and Seppel in a way that actually demonstrates this, but I don't think I'm wrong here. After seeing Nom_Anor was an SK, reviewing the end of Day 1 led me to johm000 (as I've already posted about). You seem to think he's town, and I don't see how that makes sense.
Several of his interactions with Seppel throughout Day 1 looked like an inexperienced scum playing clingy with his buddy, and looking back on Seppel's play, it all made more sense to me as scum than town.
You want to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is smart enough to realize non-obvious aspects of the game that generally come with experience (don't play too close too your scumbuddy, do actually post, don't backtrack to cover your tracks, etc.) but can be lost on people in their first few games.
As for games I was in, here's a few I can think of off the top of my head:
-Hats
-1001 Nights
-TV Mafia
-Miller's Crossing
-Song of Ice & Fire
-Points
I was typing up a post earlier, then when I went to the bathroom my flatmate jumped on my computer and started playing cod: MW2 on it. He closed my browser too.
Several of [Johm00's] interactions with Seppel throughout Day 1 looked like an inexperienced scum playing clingy with his buddy, and looking back on Seppel's play, it all made more sense to me as scum than town.
My issue with this is that "buddying" interactions are extremely flimsy when you don't even know for sure either player's alignment.
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I've mentioned already that the fact N_A came up SK destroyed my theory about Kraj.
How did that destroy your theory on Kraj? If Kraj were mafia, he didn't know N_A's alignment, so what's the difference between him pushing hard on the SK and pushing hard on a townie? Just the result. The motivation would have been identical, so how did this change your mind at all?
You seem to not understand what I am saying. YOU have not presented anything meaningful about MY behavior. In neither of those posts do you say ANYTHING about me. At all. You are respond to some of my points in the first, and having a conversation with iLord in the second. How is that relevant to my alignment?
WHY should anyone lynch me? That is the issue I've now asked you REPEATEDLY to address and you have failed to say ANYTHING about.
Seppel was the only person that didn't seem entirely convinced with the lynch.
This post, to me, seems to show Seppel joining the wagon whilst not really being entirely sure of it. I was trying to get more of an insight into his mindset before making a move.
Your explanation makes no sense. There is nothing in Seppel's tone in that post that implies doubt. He says ZDS has a good point, expresses that said point changed his mind. Says "I'm down," clearly indicating he's ready for a lynch (both with his words and by knowingly putting him one vote from a lynch), then votes.
Why did you think Seppel was unsure about the lynch when literally every sign pointed to him being okay with it?
I now think more than ever that you were confirming with your buddy that you should go ahead with the lynch.
DD -> His play does make sense as town if you don't assume he's lying (the backtrack thing) and you don't assume he's doing something I've never, ever seen anyone do, newb or experienced (the communication thing). The only tell I agree with you about is when he worried about being seen reading the thread. But you know what ? It's not enough to conclude he's scum.
So why is he pushing a case on me without any reasons and attempting to pass it off as though he already gave them?
And why did he just say that he thought Seppel was unsure of his vote when Seppel clearly was NOT unsure at that point?
@Kraj: What do you think of johm000, and why are you trying to get me to shift to Seppel instead?
What do you think of his pushing my wagon without any reasons or his excuse about asking Seppel if he was ready?
I agree that buddying tells in isolation are flimsy, but I also think johm000 is confirming my suspicions of him and Seppel (see his above post and my response in this post). I would be fine lynching Seppel too.
He's pissed. His case is OMGUS (nothing more, nothing less) and is the result of your case being full of (wrong) assumptions and (mis)interpretations.
You do realize that he voted me with fervor on his FIRST post of the GAME, right? He has only EVER not been voting me to lynch Nom_Anor. OMGUS maybe makes sense for today, but he's been after me much longer than that. Way to feed him an answer for today though.
Because up until that point Seppel had a town read (or a "not scum" read) on N_A, and if he's town then it'd be surprising for him to completely reverse his opinion that quickly.[/font][/font]
That is not what Seppel said. He didn't say his rread was "not scum" until Day 2. That's his edited, after-Nom-turned-up-SK statement. Strange that you're taking it at face value after agreeing that my point about it was strong when Kraj asked you.
It's not a big leap from "I think he's scummy, but I have a reservation due to my gut" to Seppel's vote on Nom_Anor.
I will also repeat: Seppel's vote put him at lynch-1. You don't DO that if you are unsure about joining the wagon. And the tone of his post does not read uncertainty at all.
I agree that buddying tells in isolation are flimsy, but I also think johm000 is confirming my suspicions of him and Seppel (see his above post and my response in this post).
Well of course you do. ZDS' whole point is that from the beginning you've approached your case with a conclusion and then decided how everything "confirms" it.
And no, I didn't say "in isolation" so you can't agree; almost all tells are flimsy in isolation. I said buddying tells are flimsy when you don't know the alignment of either of the supposed buddies. I could buy it if you put a strong case together on the scumminess of a certain player, and then supplemented it with observations of potential buddying. But the entire core of your case is perceived buddying. It's crap.
At this point, I think you're town. But your complete intransigence is really starting to wear on me; it's not just that you're confident enough in your read to override the flaws in your argument, it's that you're completely refusing to even consider the flaws exist. And are responding sarcastically to people who point them out (i.e., ZDS). Considering I've agreed with ZDS almost every step of the way this game I'm inclined to think he's town, so I think you should be listening to him.
There are some decent points against him, but not enough to make me think he's scum. Overall I'm reading him as town making some poor/noobish mistakes. For example, you say it's scummy that he's calling for your lynch without reasons and passing it off like he gave reasons; the way I see it, he's calling for your lynch because he sees a suspicious player from day 1 making a lousy case on him and concludes you're scum. He points to his responses to your case as evidence of your scuminess because he (incorrectly) thinks that it is.
Another example is his clearing of me today. You call it scummy because he's obviously lying, when really all he's doing is making poor conclusions. It's natural for a newer player to think pushing hard for a townie lynch means scum, and vice versa; that's the intuitive conclusion. It's experience that teaches you how townies will push with confidence even if they're wrong, or how scum will sometimes throw a buddy under the bus so hard it's absurd.
If Johm000 is fabricating a noob persona here, he's doing a fantastic job.
and why are you trying to get me to shift to Seppel instead?
Because I made the exact same observations regarding both his stance on Nom and his "weak town" slipup, and I think both points are far more conclusive than anything you've argued about Johm000.
I think Seppel blatantly contradicted himself on Nom. He was riding the fence by supporting the wagon while repeatedly expressing doubt and waffling, and has subsequently justified his read with conflicting criteria: first he said Nom was scummy but for some reason was not the right lynch (pretty much a classic 'support the wagon but set up for the mislynch result'), then said:
Makes sense from a bulletproof townie perspective. If he withheld that claim, we might have gained a free day from a mafia kill on him.
After Nom first claims bulletproof, Sepple accepts the claim and says his read of "not the right lynch" was right because his gut sensed a protown role explanation for Nom's behavior. Then today he turns around and says:
Except my gut didn't say scum. It said what I can now qualify as "not town."
Now his gut read was telling him that Nom was "not town". This doesn't explain why he didn't feel Nom was the right lynch; if he suspected him of being non-town, then the most obvious conclusion is he's mafia and should be lynched. But apparently he's claiming a read of "not mafia, but not town", which still doesn't explain why Nom wasn't the right lynch, and besides... you know who tend to get reads like "not town, but not mafia"? Mafia.
Further, I think Seppel was caught with his hand in the cookie jar with his "weak town only faces 2 mafia" statement, as if he knows this is the case. If he had said, "either we're against 3 mafia and we've got a crapton of power, or we're weak/normal and against 2 mafia" I'd completely agree. But he supported his initial statement of "we're probably against 2 mafia" by stating we're a weak town. The only way this is a townie statement is if he's assuming a weak town based on his and Gamerz's roles; and that explanation requires Seppel to both be making a bad assumption (too little information and facts contradictory to the conclusion - i.e., 1-shot vig is hardly indicative of weakness) and a bad play (implicitly claiming a weak role for no reason other than to support a 2-man mafia theory).
And not as strong a point, but his "I think DragonDart is town so the two players voting him must be scum" is completely idiotic. Many things can be said about Seppel, but he's no idiot. This also happens to be a complete reversal on his constant wanting to get DD lynched yesterday, based on... nothing as far as I can tell.
Vote: Seppel
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"With fervor" ? Are you kidding me ? He votes you after giving a one-liner "explanation", and you call it fervor ?
Hmm... I just looked back at his first quote, and it is more blase than I remember it actually being. Still kept his vote on me until he switched to Nom_Anor, then reiterated later that he thought I was "a good lynch." No mention of why, ever.
I'm quoting him. That's what the quotes are for. Quotes are for quoting.
Notice as well the parenthesises surrounding the quotes. Parenthesises are not meant to pull attention to what they are surrounding. It's the opposite. Their function is to imply secondariness.
The part he didn't say was that his read on Nom_Anor was town.He said he had a scummy read behaviorally, but had reservations about said read due to his gut.
Maybe because he didn't actually say that, you also included the part in parentheses, which is from Day 2 and likely a retrospective fabrication.
You are being obtuse and presenting arguments that fail to include facts. You're basing your entire argument on the fact I'm scum. And if that sounds stupid consider this:
Say you have to prove 1 + 1 = 2. You cannot use that fact to prove itself. You need to present a valid argument using other points. As in points that lead you to said conclusion - not draw a conclusion based on your pre-determined (and wrong) conclusion.
You voted me day one. You have not explained why. I have asked you many times to explain why. Why will you not explain?
Also, what makes someone scum for posting a case on you (even one you think is bad)?
"I'm down" can also be seen as a "whatever" kind of post. It could be that Seppel thought it would be easier to give up on his other doubts, lynch N_A and pursue his next victim next day.
You are cutting his post down to two words and ignoring the rest of it. He also quoted ZDS and explained how ZDS's point had convinced him. I don't buy your answer.
EWP:
I support a wagon on Seppel if people really don't think johm000 is scum.
Arg. Sorry for not posting folks. I have been feeling under the weather the past few days, and while I was checking in to make sure all hell didnt break loose, I really wasnt in the right frame of mind to actually post something worthwhile.
I dont have too much to say right now, as I havent had a whole lot of time to compare day 1 to night 1 and the start of day 2. I will definitely have something up tomorrow before I leave for work (2pm EST).
And as much as I am going to hate to say it, I'm honestly surprised that Seppel basically hit N_A's role right on the head.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
It's absurd that anyone who knows what the SK role is (Which I'm assuming that Johm does) could make that "mistake" on accident. I find it far more likely that he's trying to push the newb town card on purpose.
Quote from ZDS »
Zebi questioned Nom_Anor about his bulletproof claim, in his own unusual way. It begins at #221 and ends at #226.
I think I may have lost track of this conversation, but I believe that Johm had stated that he believed Zebi's questioning to be indicative of newb town (A very odd statement to make coming from him, since he states that it sounds like something he would've done as newb town).
Judging from his response, it appears that there were other posts that could've lead to his change of opinion, so this point is null.
Quote from ZDS »
I would agree if I hadn't seen so many townies (newb ones) act exactly like this.
I don't have the benefit of your experience then. I'm not seeing it as Newb unsure of the alignment of the lynch (And it's not like Johm has any problems being "sure" about his targets as he has demonstrated with DD). I'm seeing it as more as he knows ahead of time that Nom is going to be town, but is attempting to emulate the town's suspicion on him.
Quote from Johm »
Quote from iLord »
This reads completely like an excuse composed after making the point. Why did you accuse Kraj without stating this reasoning alongside the point - did you expect us to assume it?
Not to mention the reasoning is completely erroneous. Does having a lot of people with the same good read mean that they all are scum?
Additionally, "more likely" and "must" do not indicate the same degree of certitude, further establishing that this point was not what was going through your mind when you accused Kraj.
Noone else said we "must lynch N_A, right or wrong."
At the time I posted that, I was fairly sure Kraj would be scum if N_A came up town. However, the fact he came up SK just stopped my theory cold.
This doesn't answer my question - I'm asking you why didn't you give this reasoning along with your declaration? Did you expect us all to assume it?
You also didn't respond to the reasoning. To repeat, does having a lot of people with the same good read mean that they all are scum?
Quote from Johm »
Tell me why I shouldn't believe he is scum.
I can tell you why you can't be certain that he's scum.
Quote from Seppel »
I hate answers like that.
How ironic ;).
But yeah, in all fairness he had, I just hadn't seen the last page when I made that post.
Quote from ZDS »
Where have you seen scum "communicate" directly in thread before ?
Scum generally keep their interaction to a minimum.
This is very true.
Quote from DD »
I do tend to prod lurkers, and I've only ever been town. I also tend to have little to add on Day 1, before there are any bodies. Generally I pick up around day 2, when there is more robust information available. You can call my day 1 play plain-sight lurking if you feel like it, but calling it scummy for it shows a failure to consider who you're talking about, despite having played with me before.
[snip]
@Kraj: Your posting style is completely different from your posting style yesterday. What's changed?
Quote from ZDS »
Newbs aren't idiots.
My point about newbJohm not possibly forgetting that the scum don't know who the SK is.
Quote from Kraj »
Now his gut read was telling him that Nom was "not town". This doesn't explain why he didn't feel Nom was the right lynch; if he suspected him of being non-town, then the most obvious conclusion is he's mafia and should be lynched. But apparently he's claiming a read of "not mafia, but not town", which still doesn't explain why Nom wasn't the right lynch, and besides... you know who tend to get reads like "not town, but not mafia"? Mafia.
Yeah, I don't think this is necessarily scummy, but I strongly agree that it seems fabricated. I'm just thinking that Seppel believes/is stating that his "gut" is better than it actually is.
Quote from Kraj »
Further, I think Seppel was caught with his hand in the cookie jar with his "weak town only faces 2 mafia" statement, as if he knows this is the case. If he had said, "either we're against 3 mafia and we've got a crapton of power, or we're weak/normal and against 2 mafia" I'd completely agree. But he supported his initial statement of "we're probably against 2 mafia" by stating we're a weak town. The only way this is a townie statement is if he's assuming a weak town based on his and Gamerz's roles; and that explanation requires Seppel to both be making a bad assumption (too little information and facts contradictory to the conclusion - i.e., 1-shot vig is hardly indicative of weakness) and a bad play (implicitly claiming a weak role for no reason other than to support a 2-man mafia theory).
I disagree here as well - Seppel obviously thinks that his experience supports the theory of 2 scum with 1 SK.
-----------------------------------
Still think Johm is scum. Not seeing case on DD or Seppel.
This upcoming week is Thanksgiving in the U.S., and I'm taking the entire week off of work to spend with family. I will be able to post during the week, but I won't be online nearly as much, so my participation will drop.
Also, johm000 is at lynch-2 now, and should claim.
Arg. Sorry for not posting folks. I have been feeling under the weather the past few days, and while I was checking in to make sure all hell didnt break loose, I really wasnt in the right frame of mind to actually post something worthwhile.
Yeah, I don't think this is necessarily scummy, but I strongly agree that it seems fabricated. I'm just thinking that Seppel believes/is stating that his "gut" is better than it actually is.
Are you joking? 95% of the arguments you've made against people this game have been about you perceiving something in their wording that makes you think their opinions are fabricated. You strongly agree that's the case here, but for some reason it's not scummy this time?
I disagree here as well - Seppel obviously thinks that his experience supports the theory of 2 scum with 1 SK.
That's not the point at all; my experience says the same thing. The point is that Seppel first said there were probably two mafia left, which I agree with. But when asked why, he stated the town is weak as evidence of 2 mafia left when there's no basis for thinking the town is weak... unless you're mafia who knows there are only two of average power and the town must be weak to balance the game.
I'M DOING THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE DOING AND POSTING
Quote from Kraj »
But when asked why, he stated the town is weak as evidence of 2 mafia left when there's no basis for thinking the town is weak... unless you're mafia who knows there are only two of average power and the town must be weak to balance the game.
It is in my experience that a weak town only has to beat two scum:
Kingmaker - 12 players, 2 scum
Tachronic - 12 players, 3 scum, 1 SK (town was given tons of power)
Dictionary - 12 players, the equivalent of 2 scum, 1 SK
One game I played on Mafiascum (yes I cheated on you all and it felt good) - 12 players, 2 scum, 1 SK
And boom goes the dynamite. #2 on that list clearly introduces the flaw in your conclusion, but instead of considering that maybe the town is crammed with power like you've experienced before, you support your original assertion by stating as a fact that the town is weak.
As I noted before, you might be assuming the town is weak based on the town roles revealed thus far, which would be a grand total of whatever your role is + Gamerz' role. For that explanation to be true, I'd have to accept you made a bad conclusion (based on too little and contradictary information) and made a bad play (outed yourself as a weak role just for the sake of pushing the 2-man mafia idea, which is largely irrelevant right now anyway). This explanation is plausible, but I think the alternative is more likely.
While I'm here, a couple questions for ZDS:
1. Yesterday your top suspects were Nom and bman. You then dropped to just Nom after I pointed out the tells people were attacking bman for were generally weak. What is your opinion of bman now?
2. You've gone to great lengths to show the problems with DD's cases, but unless I'm mistaken you have been showing why his attacks are bad but not why they're scummy. But you're voting him. So what's your case on DD at this point?
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You guys post a lot...makes it definitely hard to catch up in the 60 to 90 minutes I have before work. I'll be back after work tonight (sometime around midnight est) and throw some quotes out there to back myself up from what I am going to say here.
From what I can see about current game state, there are 2 potential wagons. DD (3 votes), and Johm (4 votes). From what I have been able to see, I'm ready to put DD into a town category, and Johm into leaning scum.
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Bman (1) - Nom_Anor,
Gamerz (1) - DD
Not Voting: Bman, Gamerz, Zebi
The ball of incandescent gas rose on today and some idle accusations were thrown around until everyone turned to Nom_Anor. You start to surround him, when he runs for a door.
Sadly, this door causes Nom fall two-stories directly into a vat of Hydrochloric Acid.
You decide to check his room to find out who he is. There's some poisons, many different ways to set things on fire, and a picture of
Emperor PopeatinePope Benedict XVI.Nom_Anor was The Catholic Church, Serial Killer
It is now Night 1. Please send me your night actions by Wednesday at 6PM CST (midnight GMT). The earlier you get them all to me, the more likely I am to get Day 2 started on time.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
You wake up and find Gamerz missing. You find his room and find his body with his head bludgeoned by a small object. You look around his room and find some gold foil, a geiger counter, and an X-Ray spectrometer.
Gamerz was Ernest Rutherford, One-Shot Vig
You mourn the loss of a valued member of the science community.
You realize there's still lots of work to do.
With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
(Sorry for the lack of flavor, I'm not on my main computer so... it kind of sucks)
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Zebi: Two questions from yesterday you didn't answer (or didn't answer adequately):
Why? "Must" is a rather strong word to use. Please explain.
This is an extremely generalized answer to the question. Can you name something specific that makes Zebi read town to you? What were the "current turn of events" that made you think twice and why?
Does Nom's alignment now help you qualify your gut reaction with something specific?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Could you be any vaguer, please? Not following the "vocal majority of the town" doesn't make me scum. And calling me scummy doesn't make it so either.
How about your stances on the rest of the players in the game? Or more detail on what makes you think better of bman and worse of Kraj, specifically?
I have a larger post waiting in the wings, but it'd be best to hold off on it for the moment.
Care to provide specific examples of your observations? My reaction to your post was the same as DragonDart's.
Asking you to qualify your attacks/opinions with specifics is completely reasonable; why does it cause 'alarm bells' ? And um, it seems kind of weird to refer to alarm bells when you're already calling him scum.
What does "null tells at best" mean? What are the town tells you see on other players?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Comments after I take a shower and go to work.
No idea - I said as much.
Sounds like someone expected Nom to turn up town
I can't figure out what Zebi is thinking here.
Zebi, from what did you conclude that "defeatism" is indicative of scum?
Which part of the previous post is this a "nevermind" to?
This is a problem I often have with people in twilight. How can ZDS continue to assume that Nom is scum even after he's claimed town? He has no more incentive to lie here. In this case, it can't be a scumtell since Nom was SK, but I'm interested in what makes ZDS so positive that he's right.
How experienced is Johm?
Don't agree on bman - what makes you feel any better about him? It is obvious that bman didn't think his actions through, but what makes you lean more to townbman now?
------------------------------------
Like most others, going to look over the thread with consideration to Nom and Gamerz, but I think most of the important stuff covering Nom was towards the end with Johm. So far, not a lot of changes from suspicions yesterday, other than Johm seeming scummy.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
What makes you think I did it only to show I can, and not because I was posting what I actually thought? For your argument to work you have to actually demonstrate this. And you haven't.
I may not have joined the main bandwagon yesterday (hell, I was completely wrong about Nom_Anor), but I wasn't just weakly poking and staying to myself. How exactly does "staying to myself" track with the suspicion I've come under from you, Seppel, johm000, Kraj and whoever else? You seem to think I didn't participate yesterday, when what actually happened is that I didn't participate in a wagon I didn't agree with, and you did (and I about which I was wrong entirely).
Oh, my bad. I didn't realized your opinions didn't change at all after the revelation that Nom_Anor was the Serial Killer, not mafia. It certainly changed mine.
I don't take notes on all your stances in every post you write. You haven't posted any consolidated list or anything. I find it sketchy that the only thing you commented on in your first post of the day is "OMG DD is ObvSCUM!" and excruciatingly minor adjustments to your reads of bman and kraj.
Nice choice of words, too. Alarm bells, indeed.
Oh, and if you meant did I read your stances on ME, then yes I have, and they are weak.
Meh... as I said above, excruciatingly minor.
Also, I re-read ZDS, and I now strongly suspect he is the third mafioso, if there are three.
I think johm000 and Seppel are scum buddies. I think we should lynch johm000 first.
Vote johm000
On johm000:
In johm000's first post after replacing in, he lists the main target of the town (Nom_Anor) and Seppel's main target of the moment (me).
-His reason for voting me is bad (which "appalling" arguments? how are they appalling? how does a bad argument make someone scum?)
-He also couldn't come up with a good reason that he thought Zebi was town, which reinforces my reading of his town/scum list as artificial and not actually thoughtful.
-It also seems somewhat unlikely (though marginally possible) that 30 minutes after his first post, a townie would be anywhere near a point where he would be comfortable putting forth a list like that.
johm000's response about Zebi gives away his scum mindset.
-He says that Zebi hasn't done anything obviously scummy, but that recent events are changing his mind.
-There have only been 18 posts since he stated in his list that he thought Zebi was definitely town and Nom_Anor was definitely scum. In those posts, Zebi questions Nom_Anor's claim. Why would a townie who thinks Nom_Anor is scum and Zebi is town be concerned in any way by Zebi questioning Nom_Anor about his claim?
-It seems more likely that johm000 is mafia. As mafia, he would presume that both Zebi and N_A are townies, and thus that Zebi was questioning a claim that had to be true (from his perspective, 'cause why would a townie lie?). This is the only way I can think of that this makes sense.
-I also think johm000 changed his position slightly on Zebi here because Seppel had just called Zebi a newb (which was evident by this point), and he mistook that as a signal that Seppel wanted to go after Zebi.
After Seppel posts about being paranoid that people are in the thread, but not posting (and specifically mentions johm000 despite claiming not to remember who it was that he saw), johnm000 justifies himself for doing so, then asks what Seppel thinks of him.
-This post displays johm000's concern for his image, specifically with appearing to be scummy by viewing the thread without posting.
When Seppel responds, indicating that he hasn't been around long enough to form an opinion (which, I might add, has never stopped Seppel before), johm000 bizarrely asks him if he's still intent on lynching Nom_Anor (who I believe was at lynch-1 at the moment).
-This exchange reads to me as johm000 maladroitly asking Seppel what they should do: lynch Nom_Anor, or not.
-Seppel responds that he is 70% for N_A's lynch, at which point...
johm000 hammers Nom_Anor. His language in this post strongly indicates that he is mafia, and believes Nom_Anor to be town.
-Before lynching him, he sort of apologizes to N_A by telling him he was starting to believe him, but now that he's confessed about his false claim, he simply has to vote for him.
-At this point, Nom_Anor was still contending that he was a townie who lied. Mafia would have no reason to think he was still holding anything back. I think he suggested Kraj be a suspect for day 2 "if" N_A flipped town because he thought he KNEW N_A would flip town, and wanted to get Kraj out of the way.
In his final post of day 1 (after the lynch), johm confirms that he thinks Kraj "must" be scum if N_A is town. He also asks if N_A is talking about him not showing up until after he confessed... further demonstrating his concern that other's have spotted him doing something perceived as scummy.
On Seppel:
johm000 tied himself to Seppel at several points, but Seppel also tied himself to BigLlama/johm000 a few times, and made some other general slips.
While Llama was still in the game, Seppel voted him at one point in order to get him to post. This isn't inherently scummy (I did that too, actually), but with everything else here, I think he was trying to tell his partner to start playing the game and not pull the "hey, it's just the random phase! lulz!" excuse.
When Seppel posted his first town/scum list, he "accidentally" put Kraj in the leaning town section before Kraj had actually posted. I now think that was a slip, not an honest mistake.
Seppel
Didn't spam I'M TOWN until requested to do so. Whether or not Seppel has grown, I think he didn't think to do it because he isn't actually town.
Seppel's attitude toward Nom_Anor seems strange at the end of the day. The "alarm bells" post reads to me as a scum trying to play both sides of the wagon. He thinks he's scummy, but his renowned "gut" is telling him otherwise... then he sees ZDS's post about N_A's eagerness to claim/refusal to defend himself as an easy way to hop on the wagon.
I think Seppel's post about people watching the thread and not posting was a blatant attempt to communicate in-thread with johm000, to get him to stop lurking.
-Why else would he claim to not remember who he saw... but also mention that he saw johm000?
-In his next post he claims that the lurking worries him, but he doesn't know what it means. I think he has no idea what it means because what he ACTUALLY thinks it means is that his scumbuddy johm000 looks scummy for having done it.
I think the case on johm000 is a bit stronger, but I am quite confident in my read on both of them at this point. I don't really see another explanation for all of this.
My Town/Scum list:
TOWN
Zebi (would be dumbfounded if scum)
Kraj
iLord
UNSURE
jskura
WoD
bman
ZeDorkSlipeur
SCUM
Seppel
johm00
Yes. See my above post. I think I'm getting good enough to hunt down Serial Killers, too.
Now, onto DragonDart's awesome post, which completely negates any negative point I've ever had about her and freaking nails JohnMoo. My only regret is that I didn't see any of it (just wrote him off as newb town).
Vote JohnMoo
HOWEVER, DragonDart's only half-right. It was pretty sweet that you saw all those ties, because I didn't even notice that JohnMoo was basically following my whim, but I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN I'M TOWN etc.
SO HERE GOES
Nope. Was trying to get a read on him after learning Gamerz was town since Llama was doing nothing.
Nope. I mixed up leaning town and no read.
Best bullet point ever. I have no defense against that one.
I was scum in Kingmaker. I grew up. I'm trying to be more mature since I'm apparently a god when it comes to scumhunting. I still love dicking around, though.
"ZDS WAS RIGHT AND SEPPEL AGREED WITH HIM AND WAS RIGHT TOO."
wat.
Someone else also said they saw someone else in the thread (Nom?). I remember seeing multiple people, JohnMoo was the only one I remembered because his name appears in bold.
I put Nom at L-1 if I recall correctly, and with people showing up but not posting, I was worried that we had either scum lurking or scum on the block.
I still don't know what it means, considering Nom was an SK. Any input anyone?
Standard scum tactic, say a post is all wrong for many reasons, then fail to disclose said reasons. I'm sure you had plenty of time to at least list one reason.
Sure. Vote Johm000.
The majority of the time, I find that anyone who doesn't defend themselves from a looming lynch is trying to WIFOM people into thinking they're town.
"Oh, a scum would defend themselves, so if I don't, people will think I'm not scum"
The part where I asked if Nom was mafia or not. Then I read his response.
(Kraj wanted me to answer this)
I forget what this was about, but I'll try to answer it. Interrogating people to their votes just means prodding them for information as to why they've voted. Generally in my experience, scum are quick to question plays that look poor in order to put suspicion on them, although it's not always scummy. Just sometimes.
And interrogation isn't so much necessary before a vote, but I think it's always for the best to ask people questions and give them a chance to defend themselves before you vote for them. There's always exceptions to rules, but in general, that's how I feel.
That list was pretty hard to make with so many people not really contributing. It's obvious that there's a few people hiding in the shadows (intentionally or otherwise) and I didn't want to just jam everyone into the neutral category, so at that point feelings could change based on a single post. I don't actually remember who we're talking about here, but it was probably just a minor overlook - and (for my list, at least) the line between neutral/leaning X was pretty small.
Not quite 9001, but that's all of them since today started. If anyone has anything else for me, let me know.
Sign up for League of Legends!
This reads completely like an excuse composed after making the point. Why did you accuse Kraj without stating this reasoning alongside the point - did you expect us to assume it?
Not to mention the reasoning is completely erroneous. Does having a lot of people with the same good read mean that they all are scum?
Additionally, "more likely" and "must" do not indicate the same degree of certitude, further establishing that this point was not what was going through your mind when you accused Kraj.
Of course
The post in question here:
The "if you do turn out to be town, then I believe Kraj is scum" is perfect for scum trying to setup a double lynch. It stinks of knowing that Nom is going to turn up town. The last line is just attempting to go with the rest of the town - note how soft the language here is.
Additionally, since for relations-wise, Nom did effectively come up town, what do you think about Kraj?
Disagree on the scumbuddy part, but you definitely beat me to the punch on Johm
We'd have to check back on this but Johm has answered this point by saying that he felt Zebi was "wavering" too much "for his taste." If in those 18 posts, Zebi did nothing of the such, Johm has some explaining to do.
Agreed completely
I doubt it. town or scumSeppel would've probably checked the thread for Kraj's posts if he didn't remember him posting. He probably thought he saw a post by him.
I'm inclined to think that this a null point considering Kingmaker.
Nom is SK. Mafia do not know who the SK is. You know this. Trying to fake ignorance does not work.
"Complete joke" does not respond to anything.
I'm assuming that you will explain later when you have more time.
The last time is an amusing attempt at disrailing the case.
Vote: Johm000
My Custom Set: Solescurio
AND ENDING LIKE MONDAY AT 7 PM EST (a total of 100 hours).
As always, if I'm ever posting at those times, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. If it's not day in Ghost Town Mafia before I leave, Jobie, let them know about my v/la plz.
I dunno, I think I've seen three mafia and 1 SK a lot in minis, more so than 2 +SK.
So this was inherent knowledge that you knew before the game? I was under the impression that you concluded something from the posts immediately prior.
This repeated assertions that you have blown the attack out of the park is completely feigned. You must know that you're losing several valid arguments against you.
-----------------------------
More later when I'm less short on time.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I don't think I've played in one that's had 3 scum + SK. Although this is shaping up to be a ridiculously easy win if it's just 2 + SK.
You're not noting that I believed it was faked.
The point that I'm interested in here is what inspired you to change your mind on Zebi within the span of those 18 posts.
Emphasis on "pretty sure."
I love how the greater the pressure on you, the more "certain" you are that DD is scum.
If scumKraj knew that N_A was town, he'd hardly be interested in expressing such certitude that N_A is going to turn up scum, other than to appear town.
Were there any pertinent "recent events" in the period before he changed his mind?
Problem here is in my post - there's too many hints that he anticipated that Nom would turn up town.
--------------------------------------
Still haven't reread in regards to Gamerz
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Your other points are my vote on Gamerz and my apparent failure to defend Nom_Anor to prevent a lynch.
With Gamerz, I was unsure, and spun in circles. You've yet to explain why this could only have come from a scum mindset, or what benefit this would have provided me if I were scum.
I can feel the false enthusiasm radiating from this. I think you've overcompensated a bit for the feelings you actually have for my post.
What do you say to ZDS's recent attempts to paint johm000 as a newb townie, since you so strongly believe that he is scum now?
So why Llama, specifically, and not the other players who were doing nothing?
You don't need to respond to this. You've already offered your explanation. I think you are lying, and that it was a subconscious tell. I agree with the point others have made that this isn't so much something that demonstrates you are scum as something that reinforces my opinion that you are scum and that this wasn't an honest mistake (though I fully agree that it was a mistake :)).
Yeah, I think this is the weakest point here.
You missed the other part: the "alarm bells" vs. your gut, thus allowing yourself to jump on the wagon, but give yourself a plausible excuse when he came up town. I imagine it would have looked like this: "Oh drat, I should have trusted my gut! Shucks!"
Yes, ZDS said he saw Nom. And Nom said he was not online during that period, and it was impossible that anyone had seen him online. And ZDS said "Psshhh, whatever." And then the day ended.
Oh really? Why were you worried about that?
I don't think it really means anything... and I think you know that and are playing dumb.
Noted that you dismiss the possibility of three mafia out of hand as entirely impossible. If we have two mafia, it's you and johm000. If we have three, I think ZDS would be the third, but I'm less certain of my read on him.
Excuse me? You have yet to give any specific examples at all of why you think I'm scum. You just quote my posts, say they are "a joke" or that my arguments are "appalling," then vote me, and repeat some variation of "C'mon everybody, lynch the scum!"
Irony FTL. Maybe you should state WHY you think I'm scum, rather than re-stating THAT you think I'm scum.
So... you asked Seppel to make sure Seppel was okay with the lynch happening then, but didn't ask anybody else on the wagon the same thing? That hardly sounds like you were making sure of "everything," just Seppel.
I hate answers like that.
Onto the awesomeness - I get to do wall-of-text battle with DragonDart!
I feel regret that you have found not one, but two scum before me.
Ain't it obvious? Observe:
That is my artistic rendition of JohnMoo and ZDS plotting to lynch you night 1.
Llama was being vocal about it.
Except my gut didn't say scum. It said what I can now qualify as "not town."
Um, what?
Worried because scum could be lurking while waiting for us to lynch a townie, or worried that scum could be lurking hoping that the wagon of the scum on the block would just blow over. Duh.
WoD's been like the only SK that I have been able to study in detail. I'm working on identifying SKs. THANKS FOR NO HELP
It is in my experience that a weak town only has to beat two scum:
Kingmaker - 12 players, 2 scum
Tachronic - 12 players, 3 scum, 1 SK (town was given tons of power)
Dictionary - 12 players, the equivalent of 2 scum, 1 SK
One game I played on Mafiascum (yes I cheated on you all and it felt good) - 12 players, 2 scum, 1 SK
I trust you understand.
YOU AND JOHNMOO ARE THE ONLY TWO VOTING FOR DRAGONDART.
HOW MUCH MORE OBVIOUS CAN YOU MAKE IT?
(I've been waiting an eternity for a chance to use that emoticon)
He has made no effort whatsoever to even explain what arguments he's talking about, much less what about them bothers him. Even if he doesn't know the difference, he hasn't explained what he doesn't like. AT ALL. He just keeps saying I'm so ridiculously scummy that I need to get lynched.
His complete inability to even comment on what he didn't like about me in the first place indicates to me that he DOESN'T KNOW, because he was just barning Seppel and you.
Sure, he COULD have been reading along the whole while. But his first post SAID he was just about to start a read through, didn't it?
I don't buy his explanation of why his mind changed (Zebi was not being confident enough). He's also now backtracked and said his mind never changed to begin with.
So, why do you give him benefit of the doubt?
Why yes. That is an interpretation, isn't it. What do YOU think was going on there?
It's not just lack of confidence in the lynch. Since when does "lack of confidence" include an attempt to set up a Day 2 lynch? Why would you give johm000 the benefit of the doubt, anyway?
Why yes, he demonstrates AGAIN that he is concerned with his image, and that he is serious about Kraj being absolutely scum if Nom_Anor flips town. What on EARTH is the townie point of view where this post makes sense?
God forbid we INTERPRET PLAY.
Considering that I determined Seppel was scum after spotting johm000, this probably is what happened. I don't see johm000's interactions with Seppel as interaction between townies. Do you?
I did not completely fail to do that. You even said that you think the johm000 case has some okay points, and that the Seppel case was worse. Then you lump them together here and characterize them both as useless and misleading. Do you think they are of equal (poor) merit, or do you think the case on johm000 is at least somewhat stronger?
It prods people to contribute something to the thread, so that we don't end up in endgame with lurkers who've never said anything of importance because nobody paid attention to them. You still haven't demonstrated any scum motivation for this, either. I'll assume since you didn't cite one, you can't think of any.
I do see something wrong with you assuming we think and act alike, even given similar circumstances. Note to ZDS: I am not you. And I already explained why I voted Gamerz when I did. It was because I was looking back at something else, noticed it again, and it bothered me.
This is what actually happened:
Then you taunt/mock him just before the day ends. Why?
Right.
That's not what you said, though. You made it fairly clear that by behavior you thought he was scum, but your gut was making you think twice. You are retroactively applying a "gut" response that you didn't have at the time in an effort to justify your post.
You were worried a scum was on the chopping block, and that because nobody was posting in the middle of the night the wagon was stalling, even though it was at Lynch-1?
I thought you had made a slip and meant to type "town" instead of scum in the second part, but this explanation makes even less sense...
With what information did you conclude the power level of the entire town as compared to the scum in this particular game? Your examples show that the number of mafia varies in games with serial killers... that doesn't prove your point. It actually demonstrates the opposite. You are either baselessly gaming the mod and stating your speculation as fact, or you have more information about the setup (either knowledge of the town's power level as a whole, or the actual number of mafia members) than any single townie can have, and forgot that townies don't know what you do.
These points are more concrete than anything else in your prior cases against him and Johm00. Why no vote here?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
That doesn't refute the point, just points out that had he done something totally different it would have been scummier. Whoop dee doo.
I include it as a point against him in a case. He does not mention having read for hours. YOU do. I am obligated to ask him how much he read, even though his post clearly implies that he was about to go do the read right then. No.
Because newbs never make mistakes as scum and do things that can only do them wrong in an attempt to back off from or justify something they did before. Oh wait, they actually do that all the time.
Different reads. I disagree.
And I've seen the exact scenario where inexperienced scum try to set up a mislynch if a certain player flips town. It's an appealing tactic for scum, because they KNOW the player will flip scum.
No such thing as a neutral perspective.
Remember, this is a newb we're talking about here, as you've emphasized so much elsewhere. Why do you assume a newb would know not to do that (or fail to do it as subtly as they think they are doing it)? [/quote]
K.
I do tend to prod lurkers, and I've only ever been town. I also tend to have little to add on Day 1, before there are any bodies. Generally I pick up around day 2, when there is more robust information available. You can call my day 1 play plain-sight lurking if you feel like it, but calling it scummy for it shows a failure to consider who you're talking about, despite having played with me before.
You're just claiming that I did something you did, and because you were scum when you did it, I must have the same motivations you did and must also therefore be scum. I've already provided my thought process for the vote on Gamerz. You don't believe me, and I don't really care that you don't believe me because I already explained it all I can.
Point taken.
@Kraj: Your posting style is completely different from your posting style yesterday. What's changed?
How so?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
But it is scummy. If a tell exists, it is fairly irrelevant that another stronger tell doesn't. Pointing out the hypothetical just minimizes what's actually present instead of arguing against it.
So you don't think newbs have a tendency to backpeddle when under suspicion as scum? Many do. And you also apparently think johm000 is astute for a newb? Some newbs ARE idiots, actually.
I don't know, and I'm not digging back through every game I'm ever played/read to verify it for you.
This is bigger than the game. I just think claims to neutrality and objectivity are bunk, as they are always seated within a specific, non-neutral context.
Again, not ALL newbs are idiots. But some are, and you don't even have to be a total idiot to think others won't notice small interactions with your scum buddy in the thread. Sometimes scum avoid each other like the plague, and sometimes there are scum who are too clingy with their buddies.
I could have sworn we'd been in more games together. I guess I've read along with games you were in that I didn't actually play in. Makes more sense that you're not aware of how I tend to play. Maybe I didn't do it as much in VR: Salvation. In any case, my point is that this isn't unusual play for me, as you'll see if you look at more than the first 12 pages of a single game (in which I was actually also a jester).
DD (2) - ZDS, Johm
Johm (4) - DD, Seppel, Bman, iLord
Not Voting - WoD, Jksura, Zebi, Kraj
6 Votes to Lynch.
Consider it done. WoD and Jskura have been prodded.
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Must lock computer when I get up from now on.
Vote DragonDart.
I'll be re-reading today.
Several of his interactions with Seppel throughout Day 1 looked like an inexperienced scum playing clingy with his buddy, and looking back on Seppel's play, it all made more sense to me as scum than town.
You want to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is smart enough to realize non-obvious aspects of the game that generally come with experience (don't play too close too your scumbuddy, do actually post, don't backtrack to cover your tracks, etc.) but can be lost on people in their first few games.
As for games I was in, here's a few I can think of off the top of my head:
-Hats
-1001 Nights
-TV Mafia
-Miller's Crossing
-Song of Ice & Fire
-Points
What made you pick DragonDart?
My issue with this is that "buddying" interactions are extremely flimsy when you don't even know for sure either player's alignment.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
How did that destroy your theory on Kraj? If Kraj were mafia, he didn't know N_A's alignment, so what's the difference between him pushing hard on the SK and pushing hard on a townie? Just the result. The motivation would have been identical, so how did this change your mind at all?
No. You have not.
You seem to not understand what I am saying. YOU have not presented anything meaningful about MY behavior. In neither of those posts do you say ANYTHING about me. At all. You are respond to some of my points in the first, and having a conversation with iLord in the second. How is that relevant to my alignment?
WHY should anyone lynch me? That is the issue I've now asked you REPEATEDLY to address and you have failed to say ANYTHING about.
Your explanation makes no sense. There is nothing in Seppel's tone in that post that implies doubt. He says ZDS has a good point, expresses that said point changed his mind. Says "I'm down," clearly indicating he's ready for a lynch (both with his words and by knowingly putting him one vote from a lynch), then votes.
Why did you think Seppel was unsure about the lynch when literally every sign pointed to him being okay with it?
I now think more than ever that you were confirming with your buddy that you should go ahead with the lynch.
Oh, the irony...
So why is he pushing a case on me without any reasons and attempting to pass it off as though he already gave them?
And why did he just say that he thought Seppel was unsure of his vote when Seppel clearly was NOT unsure at that point?
@Kraj: What do you think of johm000, and why are you trying to get me to shift to Seppel instead?
What do you think of his pushing my wagon without any reasons or his excuse about asking Seppel if he was ready?
I agree that buddying tells in isolation are flimsy, but I also think johm000 is confirming my suspicions of him and Seppel (see his above post and my response in this post). I would be fine lynching Seppel too.
You do realize that he voted me with fervor on his FIRST post of the GAME, right? He has only EVER not been voting me to lynch Nom_Anor. OMGUS maybe makes sense for today, but he's been after me much longer than that. Way to feed him an answer for today though.
That is not what Seppel said. He didn't say his rread was "not scum" until Day 2. That's his edited, after-Nom-turned-up-SK statement. Strange that you're taking it at face value after agreeing that my point about it was strong when Kraj asked you.
It's not a big leap from "I think he's scummy, but I have a reservation due to my gut" to Seppel's vote on Nom_Anor.
I will also repeat: Seppel's vote put him at lynch-1. You don't DO that if you are unsure about joining the wagon. And the tone of his post does not read uncertainty at all.
Well of course you do. ZDS' whole point is that from the beginning you've approached your case with a conclusion and then decided how everything "confirms" it.
And no, I didn't say "in isolation" so you can't agree; almost all tells are flimsy in isolation. I said buddying tells are flimsy when you don't know the alignment of either of the supposed buddies. I could buy it if you put a strong case together on the scumminess of a certain player, and then supplemented it with observations of potential buddying. But the entire core of your case is perceived buddying. It's crap.
At this point, I think you're town. But your complete intransigence is really starting to wear on me; it's not just that you're confident enough in your read to override the flaws in your argument, it's that you're completely refusing to even consider the flaws exist. And are responding sarcastically to people who point them out (i.e., ZDS). Considering I've agreed with ZDS almost every step of the way this game I'm inclined to think he's town, so I think you should be listening to him.
There are some decent points against him, but not enough to make me think he's scum. Overall I'm reading him as town making some poor/noobish mistakes. For example, you say it's scummy that he's calling for your lynch without reasons and passing it off like he gave reasons; the way I see it, he's calling for your lynch because he sees a suspicious player from day 1 making a lousy case on him and concludes you're scum. He points to his responses to your case as evidence of your scuminess because he (incorrectly) thinks that it is.
Another example is his clearing of me today. You call it scummy because he's obviously lying, when really all he's doing is making poor conclusions. It's natural for a newer player to think pushing hard for a townie lynch means scum, and vice versa; that's the intuitive conclusion. It's experience that teaches you how townies will push with confidence even if they're wrong, or how scum will sometimes throw a buddy under the bus so hard it's absurd.
If Johm000 is fabricating a noob persona here, he's doing a fantastic job.
Because I made the exact same observations regarding both his stance on Nom and his "weak town" slipup, and I think both points are far more conclusive than anything you've argued about Johm000.
I think Seppel blatantly contradicted himself on Nom. He was riding the fence by supporting the wagon while repeatedly expressing doubt and waffling, and has subsequently justified his read with conflicting criteria: first he said Nom was scummy but for some reason was not the right lynch (pretty much a classic 'support the wagon but set up for the mislynch result'), then said:
After Nom first claims bulletproof, Sepple accepts the claim and says his read of "not the right lynch" was right because his gut sensed a protown role explanation for Nom's behavior. Then today he turns around and says:
Now his gut read was telling him that Nom was "not town". This doesn't explain why he didn't feel Nom was the right lynch; if he suspected him of being non-town, then the most obvious conclusion is he's mafia and should be lynched. But apparently he's claiming a read of "not mafia, but not town", which still doesn't explain why Nom wasn't the right lynch, and besides... you know who tend to get reads like "not town, but not mafia"? Mafia.
Further, I think Seppel was caught with his hand in the cookie jar with his "weak town only faces 2 mafia" statement, as if he knows this is the case. If he had said, "either we're against 3 mafia and we've got a crapton of power, or we're weak/normal and against 2 mafia" I'd completely agree. But he supported his initial statement of "we're probably against 2 mafia" by stating we're a weak town. The only way this is a townie statement is if he's assuming a weak town based on his and Gamerz's roles; and that explanation requires Seppel to both be making a bad assumption (too little information and facts contradictory to the conclusion - i.e., 1-shot vig is hardly indicative of weakness) and a bad play (implicitly claiming a weak role for no reason other than to support a 2-man mafia theory).
And not as strong a point, but his "I think DragonDart is town so the two players voting him must be scum" is completely idiotic. Many things can be said about Seppel, but he's no idiot. This also happens to be a complete reversal on his constant wanting to get DD lynched yesterday, based on... nothing as far as I can tell.
Vote: Seppel
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Hmm... I just looked back at his first quote, and it is more blase than I remember it actually being. Still kept his vote on me until he switched to Nom_Anor, then reiterated later that he thought I was "a good lynch." No mention of why, ever.
The part he didn't say was that his read on Nom_Anor was town.He said he had a scummy read behaviorally, but had reservations about said read due to his gut.
Maybe because he didn't actually say that, you also included the part in parentheses, which is from Day 2 and likely a retrospective fabrication.
You voted me day one. You have not explained why. I have asked you many times to explain why. Why will you not explain?
Also, what makes someone scum for posting a case on you (even one you think is bad)?
You are cutting his post down to two words and ignoring the rest of it. He also quoted ZDS and explained how ZDS's point had convinced him. I don't buy your answer.
EWP:
I support a wagon on Seppel if people really don't think johm000 is scum.
Based on my skim read I'm fine with keeping my vote where it is.
I dont have too much to say right now, as I havent had a whole lot of time to compare day 1 to night 1 and the start of day 2. I will definitely have something up tomorrow before I leave for work (2pm EST).
And as much as I am going to hate to say it, I'm honestly surprised that Seppel basically hit N_A's role right on the head.
It's absurd that anyone who knows what the SK role is (Which I'm assuming that Johm does) could make that "mistake" on accident. I find it far more likely that he's trying to push the newb town card on purpose.
I think I may have lost track of this conversation, but I believe that Johm had stated that he believed Zebi's questioning to be indicative of newb town (A very odd statement to make coming from him, since he states that it sounds like something he would've done as newb town).
Judging from his response, it appears that there were other posts that could've lead to his change of opinion, so this point is null.
I don't have the benefit of your experience then. I'm not seeing it as Newb unsure of the alignment of the lynch (And it's not like Johm has any problems being "sure" about his targets as he has demonstrated with DD). I'm seeing it as more as he knows ahead of time that Nom is going to be town, but is attempting to emulate the town's suspicion on him.
This doesn't answer my question - I'm asking you why didn't you give this reasoning along with your declaration? Did you expect us all to assume it?
You also didn't respond to the reasoning. To repeat, does having a lot of people with the same good read mean that they all are scum?
I can tell you why you can't be certain that he's scum.
How ironic ;).
But yeah, in all fairness he had, I just hadn't seen the last page when I made that post.
This is very true.
My point about newbJohm not possibly forgetting that the scum don't know who the SK is.
Yeah, I don't think this is necessarily scummy, but I strongly agree that it seems fabricated. I'm just thinking that Seppel believes/is stating that his "gut" is better than it actually is.
I disagree here as well - Seppel obviously thinks that his experience supports the theory of 2 scum with 1 SK.
-----------------------------------
Still think Johm is scum. Not seeing case on DD or Seppel.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I was under the impression that he's played more than that.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
DD (3) - ZDS, Johm, WoD
Johm (4) - DD, Seppel, Bman, iLord
Seppel (1) - Kraj
Not Voting - Jksura, Zebi
6 Votes to Lynch.
EDIT: I may be an engineer, but that doesn't mean I can count.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Also, johm000 is at lynch-2 now, and should claim.
Feel better soon.
Are you joking? 95% of the arguments you've made against people this game have been about you perceiving something in their wording that makes you think their opinions are fabricated. You strongly agree that's the case here, but for some reason it's not scummy this time?
That's not the point at all; my experience says the same thing. The point is that Seppel first said there were probably two mafia left, which I agree with. But when asked why, he stated the town is weak as evidence of 2 mafia left when there's no basis for thinking the town is weak... unless you're mafia who knows there are only two of average power and the town must be weak to balance the game.
This makes me want to vote you and tell you to claim just to see how you like it.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Reread me.
Okeydokey.
A little overly certain, but otherwise I agree. This is most likely the case.
Experience-based evidence to support opinion.
And boom goes the dynamite. #2 on that list clearly introduces the flaw in your conclusion, but instead of considering that maybe the town is crammed with power like you've experienced before, you support your original assertion by stating as a fact that the town is weak.
As I noted before, you might be assuming the town is weak based on the town roles revealed thus far, which would be a grand total of whatever your role is + Gamerz' role. For that explanation to be true, I'd have to accept you made a bad conclusion (based on too little and contradictary information) and made a bad play (outed yourself as a weak role just for the sake of pushing the 2-man mafia idea, which is largely irrelevant right now anyway). This explanation is plausible, but I think the alternative is more likely.
While I'm here, a couple questions for ZDS:
1. Yesterday your top suspects were Nom and bman. You then dropped to just Nom after I pointed out the tells people were attacking bman for were generally weak. What is your opinion of bman now?
2. You've gone to great lengths to show the problems with DD's cases, but unless I'm mistaken you have been showing why his attacks are bad but not why they're scummy. But you're voting him. So what's your case on DD at this point?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
From what I can see about current game state, there are 2 potential wagons. DD (3 votes), and Johm (4 votes). From what I have been able to see, I'm ready to put DD into a town category, and Johm into leaning scum.