Also I'm not really lurking its just that I don't have anything further to add the discussion. I didn't really notice anything in the long back and forth between Kraj and iLord that clearly screamed to me that one or the other is scum.
Yeah, but it doesn't even feel like you're trying to look into it...it just feels like you're 'mmhmm, mmhmm'-ing your way through the whole exchange. Granted, you weren't the only one, and I had a strong temptation to do just that considering the length of the exchange.
@gamerz, I'm actually trying not to lurk as much however if I try and be someone who post a few times each day without any reason I end up with foot in mouth syndrome (see Basic#8).
The thing is, even if you get things wrong or say things wrong, at least you might be able to help just through the interactions that come from you getting lynched from your mistakes. And, even if you do make mistakes, it doesn't mean that you're going to get lynched. You're going to make mistakes, it's a given, but that's no reason not to get involved. The only way you're going to get better is to actually try.
Vote: Zebi. All I've seen you do is sit on fences in every post and pretty much provide none of your own in-depth personal insight on anything so far.
Heh, but of course, this I can see as exhibit A of what you're afraid of. Trying to catch scum by acting scummy is never a good idea. You're not going to be able to get any good tells from it because you're just going to get scum and townies alike going after you.
Wait, so you were trying to get some discussion going by being hypocritical and getting called out on it?
Or you thought we'd discuss it and then notice the hypocrisy later?
I see very little sense being made here.
....Unvote
Vote: bMan
The problem I see with this vote is that you're voting him, not because he's scummy, but because he's 'making very little sense'...which isn't necessarily scummy.
I find Kraj and ZDS to be especially townie, and I lol'd when a wagon started to develop on Kraj. As he says, the wagon was ridiculous. I poked at Gamerz at first, to see if he'd panic and melt down, but from his reactions I'm pretty sold on him as Town too.
Something that just bugged me now. Why would you want to see if I'd panic? Wouldn't it be just as likely that I'd do that if I was town considering how out of nowhere your vote was? I'm not sure I see why trying to make someone 'melt down' is a good idea.
Bman's late vote on Gamerz is hilariously bad.
Uh...what vote was that? Your lack of attention to this game annoys me.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
I don't see Nom as the right lynch for today. He's definitely ringing alarm bells, but something is making me think that he's not correct.
So then I look at his wagoneers: Kraj, ZDS, iLord.
Wooo, what a mess trying to sort through that. I'm now (somewhat) of the mindset that Kraj and iLord are now both town or both scum due to their mutually-agreed stepping-down. I only say somewhat because I realized that when Kraj quoted my post, I gave them a perfect opportunity to step town from the mudslinging.
I posed two potential scenarios: 1. Nom is scum who chose to barn a bad attack being made by loud, scummy-looking iLord; 2. loud, scummy-looking iLord is scum. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I don't understand how you believe my question was loaded. Basically, what I'm asking here is why you decided to pose scenario 1 if you believe that my behavior does not follow scenario 1.
Basically, you're saying I'm either loud town or loud scum, which is hardly an insightful conclusion.
Quote from Kraj »
I disagree. And I don't think the arguments you made to support this point made any sense at all.
Hmm. You are saying that "but" isn't a connector for two contrasting statements?
Quote from Kraj »
Official barn: anyone who has said anything about finding DragonDart suspicious.
What happened to barning being scummy?
Quote from Nom »
Jobie: Have you found a replacement for BigLlama yet?
Glad to see that you're interested.
Quote from Nom »
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting. If everyone could make a clear choice of either saying they think I'm scum and vote for me, or say they think I'm town, and suggest who they think would be a better target, then we can get out of this half-stalled state we're in and move on, one way or the other.
You mind answering some of the points against you? Namely:
1. You said that you didn't mind my case against Gamerz, yet you voted me for it right off the bat.
2. You said that you didn't like Gamerz defense to my case because he felt inclined to answer everything. What about Kraj's more "defensive"/extensive response to me case?
-------------------------
For the record, I typically prefer to keep my town views on newer players private, as I don't like to encourage the newb town behavior that gives me these reads.
Quote from Gamerz »
Something that just bugged me now. Why would you want to see if I'd panic? Wouldn't it be just as likely that I'd do that if I was town considering how out of nowhere your vote was? I'm not sure I see why trying to make someone 'melt down' is a good idea.
Generally, I find that panicked new players are a lot easier to read than guarded new players.
Quote from Seppel »
I don't see Nom as the right lynch for today. He's definitely ringing alarm bells, but something is making me think that he's not correct.
So then I look at his wagoneers: Kraj, ZDS, iLord.
Wooo, what a mess trying to sort through that. I'm now (somewhat) of the mindset that Kraj and iLord are now both town or both scum due to their mutually-agreed stepping-down. I only say somewhat because I realized that when Kraj quoted my post, I gave them a perfect opportunity to step town from the mudslinging.
IGMEOAOY. Christ.
I strongly disagree that Nom is not the correct lynch for today. He has continuously avoided questions against him and is blatantly going for easy targets.
Look at his last post - he doesn't even attempt to alleviate the suspicion on himself, instead preferring to analyze the logistics of the situation. This is not town behavior.
I admit I'm all fluff. That's fine.
...
DD, also meh. Accusing people of lurking, being 'fluff', and interrogating people as to their votes, and voting Gamerz without any interrogation towards him.
"People" were lurking, and you fully admit to being "all fluff." Not sure what you're referring to when you say I was "interrogating people as to their votes," or how that would be a scumtell for you. And not sure what you're talking about with Gamerz. What makes "interrogation" a necessary prerequisite to voting someone?
1. My wagon can pick up speed and I get to claim range, then either am lynched or the wagon dissolves after my claim.
2. My wagon gets no more support and dies out, either because we found someone else scummy or because everyone just decides I'm not worth lynching.
3. The game stalls, and I probably get lynched because nothing's happening and we get some kind of deadline.
No, understandably, I really want to avoid #3. Stalled out games are not fun, and it'll likely get my lynched cause there's nobody else to go on.
Now, obviously, from my point, #2 is the best. I don't get lynched and I don't have to claim, and we can go on to lynch someone who might be scum.
Still, #1 is far preferable to #3. At the very least, it forces people to take clear stances on me they can't weasel out of later, and I have a fair chance of living as well.
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting. If everyone could make a clear choice of either saying they think I'm scum and vote for me, or say they think I'm town, and suggest who they think would be a better target, then we can get out of this half-stalled state we're in and move on, one way or the other.
However, both options 1 and 3 give us more information to work with. 1 gets us a claim, and maybe a lynch to see if you were true with your claim, and we can go from that. 3 gets us your info which we can work off that.
About the only good thing I have been able to see from NA, was the small attack on bman for the hypocrisy. Even though there was a preemptive attack on bman for lurking that was fairly weak as well. Thinking ZDS is scum for asking questions is fairly poor, since questions = info and info = Good Thing.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Also, WoD's return is not at all satisfying. He's still basically said nothing, having lifted some of the most common threads of discussion and restated them with no reasoning or insight into his thought process at all. Seems like he's trying to blend in.
Call me a pessimist if you want. But I am under the impression that a scum wouldnt be truthful with said claim, and then would be found out upon death.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Well, anyway, that's lynch-2, so I'm going to claim.
I'm the cosmological constant, and I'm bulletproof.
Flavor's that even einstein wasn't able to kill me, since he tried, but people still think I exist.
My suspicions are now on: Gamerz, bman, and jsuka.
Gamerz and bman as mentioned previously, and jsuka because he waited until now to jump on the wagon with poor reasons.
I think I'm happy, though, with my vote staying on bman.
@jsuka: I think ZDS is wtfing because if I'm dead, it wouldn't matter much if I were lying about my claim or not.
@ilord: It's not that I had a problem with you making a case, but it looked like you were stretching to make it--you were trying to make suspicions out of nothing. And Kraj's responce to you was better, as it was completely out of the random stage and it was agressive, rather than defensive.
Quote from ilord »
Look at his last post - he doesn't even attempt to alleviate the suspicion on himself, instead preferring to analyze the logistics of the situation. This is not town behavior.
I always analyze the logic behind important situations. It's what I do.
And the point of mafia isn't to survive. It's to win. We shouldn't be trying just to stay alive but find what the best option for the town is--even if it's dying.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I've got a larger post brewing, but a quick response to the claim: I don't find anything about it especially unbelievable, but nothing about it makes me less interested in lynching him. Vote stands.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
From my experience, a few things can happen here:
[...]
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting.[...]
Awesome. 317 words spent to say "people should either vote me or persue someone else". Sorry if this is genuine, Nom, but this looks like a huge pile of trying to appear like you're looking out for the town's best interests without actually saying anything of substance. And if you're scum and thought that if you made a really long post you could subtly weave in language that presumes your towniness like "or we should all back off and go scumhunting" and we wouldn't notice...well, we did.
The problem I see with this vote is that you're voting him, not because he's scummy, but because he's 'making very little sense'...which isn't necessarily scummy.
I don't see Nom as the right lynch for today. He's definitely ringing alarm bells, but something is making me think that he's not correct.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
I don't understand how you believe my question was loaded. Basically, what I'm asking here is why you decided to pose scenario 1 if you believe that my behavior does not follow scenario 1.
Two reasons: A. I never said your behavior doesn't follow scenario 1 I said it might not, which is why it's a loaded question; B. As I already explained, the only way my logic re: Nom_Anor made sense was if I pointed out your behavior as scummy.
Hmm. You are saying that "but" isn't a connector for two contrasting statements?
OK, now I'm intrigued. Walk me through, starting here.
Clearly "but" is a connector between two contrasting statements. The implication being that "iLord in particular tends to get caught for looking scummy early on when he's actually scum" and "I think Nom_Anor comes out looking the worst from all of this" are contrasting statements. Okay, we're on the same page so far. Now explain why this is an issue.
Joking tone noted, but it's a question worth answering. Agreeing with other people is common and there's nothing scummy about it. It becomes scummy when either a. the way you go about it has the effect of supporting suspicion on someone while not appearing like you're attacking that player, or b. it is part of an established pattern.
If there was a category in between leaning scum and neutral, he would probably be there
The question isn't about what your basis is, the question is about contradicting reads: you say you're neutral/leaning town but then say you're neutral/leaning scum. What changed?
"People" were lurking, and you fully admit to being "all fluff." Not sure what you're referring to when you say I was "interrogating people as to their votes," or how that would be a scumtell for you. And not sure what you're talking about with Gamerz. What makes "interrogation" a necessary prerequisite to voting someone?
Also, WoD's return is not at all satisfying. He's still basically said nothing, having lifted some of the most common threads of discussion and restated them with no reasoning or insight into his thought process at all. Seems like he's trying to blend in.
This is quite true.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting. If everyone could make a clear choice of either saying they think I'm scum and vote for me, or say they think I'm town, and suggest who they think would be a better target, then we can get out of this half-stalled state we're in and move on, one way or the other.
Asking people to get off your wagon with out discussing any of the issues that lead to people being on your wagon is pretty much asking for being voted in to claim range.
That said I don't really understand WoD vote for two reasons:
A) His post two prior to his "I thought I was already voting" statement is him unvoting
B) He still hasn't explained his vote on Nom, or why he thought he was already on the wagon.
Is there a specific reason why FoSing WoD requires you to unvote Zebi ?
Nope, however my vote was there just to generate discussion in some shape or form, not as a "I'm convinced that you are scum, and I need to draw everyone's attention to it" vote. Therefore I took it off.
Something that just bugged me now. Why would you want to see if I'd panic? Wouldn't it be just as likely that I'd do that if I was town considering how out of nowhere your vote was? I'm not sure I see why trying to make someone 'melt down' is a good idea.
Usually it is only players who have something to hide that melt down. Especially newer scum players.
You were a bit jumpy in response to the first randomvote on you, which I did chalk up to your inexperience, but it could have been what I would refer to as a "guilty conscience", ie they know they're scum, and panic when votes get laid upon them.
That was the reason for my confirmvotelynchpls post. Obviously I knew that there was no way a rational town would lynch you - I just wanted to see if you'd panic, and reveal scumness. Because it is usually the scums that melt down.
The way he's willing-to-claim-but-not-really implies he's not going to claim vanilla (he makes it sound as if his claim will matter). Ironically, this is a good (and cunning) way to scare off votes. (and something I've seen scum do many times in various ways)
It was a sensible way to lead in to the claim if he is a townie.
What do you think is the most likely ? That they are both town, or that they are both scum ? In case of the latter, do you have individual arguments against them ?
To answer that, I'd actually have to reread, so here's something from iLord's most recent post to Kraj:
The smiley here is to notify Kraj that he could turn this into another huge argument but is unwilling to do so because iLord feels / knows that Kraj is on the same team as him.
I strongly disagree that Nom is not the correct lynch for today. He has continuously avoided questions against him and is blatantly going for easy targets.
Look at his last post - he doesn't even attempt to alleviate the suspicion on himself, instead preferring to analyze the logistics of the situation. This is not town behavior.
Makes sense from a bulletproof townie perspective. If he withheld that claim, we might have gained a free day from a mafia kill on him.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
I'm underwhelmed. I was expecting something better.
I especially don't like this sentence. He makes no effort at all. It's like he's daring us to kill him.
Why, Nom ? If you are town, and moreover bulletproof, then there is no way your death could be "the best option for the town". What sense does it make for you to not try to stay alive ?
Well, I'm sorry I'm not as high a power role as you seemed to think I was implying.
So far as death being the best optionin this case, that was not what I was trying to imply. I was expressing that simply trying to defend myself might not be the best course for the town. And, yes, sometimes when you're town, voluntarily dying can be the best course of action--I can't remember the details, but I came to this conclusion in a recent game; I think we decided against it in the end.
Awesome. 317 words spent to say "people should either vote me or persue someone else". Sorry if this is genuine, Nom, but this looks like a huge pile of trying to appear like you're looking out for the town's best interests without actually saying anything of substance. And if you're scum and thought that if you made a really long post you could subtly weave in language that presumes your towniness like "or we should all back off and go scumhunting" and we wouldn't notice...well, we did.
It might not have "been of substance," but I took what information and experience I had to work with and looked for the best conclusion. I don't think just telling everyone "hey, vote for me now or back off!?" without any explanation would make much sense, and that's what the post was: explaining why I reached the conclusion I did.
And I'm sorry if I "weaved in" language biased in my favor, but I would point out, that was the part of the argument when we were presuming my innocence:
"So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting."
The wagon on me part was what would happen if everyone though I was scum. There would be a wagon on me, like there is.
The back off and go scumhunting was what would happen if everyone thought I was town.
Yes, I'm going to use language presuming my innocence in the "what to do if we all think I'm town section.
The way he's willing-to-claim-but-not-really implies he's not going to claim vanilla (he makes it sound as if his claim will matter). Ironically, this is a good (and cunning) way to scare off votes. (and something I've seen scum do many times in various ways)
Well, honestly, from the point I was the player under the most suspicion, my ability was useless. The mafia isn't going to shoot the player whose on the lynching table. So I really didn't mind claiming.
@Seppel:
Could you explain what about DD makes you think he's mafia? I've been reading him as town for quite a while now, so I really don't see it at all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I'm the cosmological constant, and I'm bulletproof.
Flavor's that even einstein wasn't able to kill me, since he tried, but people still think I exist.
I have issues with this claim.
Do you have a name?
What does bulletproof mean?
Since when does Einstein use bullets to kill people?
What's cosmological constant? Is that some kind of a special role?
Einstein tried to kill you, why would he do that? He seems like a nice guy, why would he kill another nice guy?
Is that all the flavor you got? I got a lot more than that.
He tried to kill you, and failed, but people still think you exist? So.. that would mean you're dead, and people are wrong in thinking that you exist?
I could be overanalyzing, but yuck. Will wait to vote until after responses.
Okay, I've been thinking, and I think our best bet is to just not lynch power roles right now.
Since I'm under heavy suspicion and am vanilla, I think it's best to just lynch me. It's not the best option, but it's better than many, and it keeps Roja from wasting his investigation on me(supposing there's a doc).
And here's something similar but with a different rational--letting my inevitable death happen early so the scummy players can get lynched.
Nope, I really don't mind dying, so long as the town looks at ande and Solor tomorrow.
Though I would like to hear from Tilde and WOD before the day ends.
Oh. And either kill two people tonight or don't kill anyone--if we kill just one, then with the mafia kills, there will only be 4 people anyway.
Now, I'm not saying it is a good choice to lynch me in this case, since unlike in the above two cases, there's no advantage to it. I'm just saying it's not as far out in left field as ZDS thinks.
Do you have a name?
What does bulletproof mean?
Since when does Einstein use bullets to kill people?
What's cosmological constant? Is that some kind of a special role?
Einstein tried to kill you, why would he do that? He seems like a nice guy, why would he kill another nice guy?
Is that all the flavor you got? I got a lot more than that.
He tried to kill you, and failed, but people still think you exist? So.. that would mean you're dead, and people are wrong in thinking that you exist?
I could be overanalyzing, but yuck. Will wait to vote until after responses.
Lol.
1. Yes. I am the cosmological constant.
2. Bulletproof means I can't be killed at night.
3. Einstein did not use bullets to kill people(I hope).
4. It's my name. Wikipedia says it's something Einstein used to modify general relativity.
5. Something about universal expansion proving it wrong. Wikipedia isn't very clear except he though it was his "biggest blunder."
6. Yup. May I suggest not mentioning having a large amount of flavor, since it probably means you're more important. So you could be drawing a bullseye on your head.
7. You got me. I've don't have a clue.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
@Seppel:
Could you explain what about DD makes you think he's mafia? I've been reading him as town for quite a while now, so I really don't see it at all.
See the part where he (I thought DragonDart was a "she") voted Gamerz.
Do you have a name?
What does bulletproof mean?
Since when does Einstein use bullets to kill people?
What's cosmological constant? Is that some kind of a special role?
Einstein tried to kill you, why would he do that? He seems like a nice guy, why would he kill another nice guy?
Is that all the flavor you got? I got a lot more than that.
He tried to kill you, and failed, but people still think you exist? So.. that would mean you're dead, and people are wrong in thinking that you exist?
I could be overanalyzing, but yuck. Will wait to vote until after responses.
It might not have "been of substance," but I took what information and experience I had to work with and looked for the best conclusion.
Except you didn't. All you did was list every possible scenario. There was no analysis, no information based on experience, and no conclusion - just stating the obvious, John Madden style. "Either we lynch me, we wagon someone else, or we don't do anything and the game stagnates." Duh.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
1. Yes. I am the cosmological constant.
2. Bulletproof means I can't be killed at night.
3. Einstein did not use bullets to kill people(I hope).
4. It's my name. Wikipedia says it's something Einstein used to modify general relativity.
5. Something about universal expansion proving it wrong. Wikipedia isn't very clear except he though it was his "biggest blunder."
6. Yup. May I suggest not mentioning having a large amount of flavor, since it probably means you're more important. So you could be drawing a bullseye on your head.
7. You got me. I've don't have a clue.
1. Oh okay, I thought it was a special role.
2. Figured, that's fair.
3. Okay. I just assumed because you're bulletproof, and that Einstein failed to kill you, there was some sort of link there.
4. Understood.
5. Fair.
6. Okay, just wondering. And I realize that now, yes, but having more than one line of flavor means nothing, really.
7. Score.
I think I'm liking Nom's claim. The one thing bugging me still is the name.
Did you just get 'Cosmological Constant'? If that's your name, shouldn't there be a Vanilla Townie or a Town Cop or whatever after it? I've never heard of a normal person named Cosmological Constant.
^^ Not interrogation, just wondering. ^^
And I like this defeatism, not sure why. I said before that I didn't like defeatism, but looking back, all the defeatism cases I've seen that were scummy were somewhat of a single blow-up post without any rationale. Nom has provided thought as to his self destruction, and I think deserves to live, or at least have the day prolonged to get more discussion going.
Of course, I could be painting a big target on my back here, but hey. I'm trying. -_-
If there was a category in between leaning scum and neutral, he would probably be there
Kraj has already stated why I asked the question in the first place, so let's try this again differently (because I am not so insane as to ask the same question again expecting a different answer).
Why would you put him as 'leaning scum' if everything you stated earlier about him seemed to show that you had no reason to actually find him scummy?
Also, WoD's return is not at all satisfying. He's still basically said nothing, having lifted some of the most common threads of discussion and restated them with no reasoning or insight into his thought process at all. Seems like he's trying to blend in.
Actually, blending in would require him posting more.
Well, anyway, that's lynch-2, so I'm going to claim.
I'm the cosmological constant, and I'm bulletproof.
Flavor's that even einstein wasn't able to kill me, since he tried, but people still think I exist.
Hmm, seems believable. See no problem with it either, but of course, day 1, it's easier to get away with a false-claim since there's no evidence that would help point out otherwise. And the other thing that bugs me about this claim is that it seems hard to actually confirm short of him...getting killed.
My suspicions are now on: Gamerz, bman, and jsuka.
Gamerz and bman as mentioned previously, and jsuka because he waited until now to jump on the wagon with poor reasons.
Are you still after me because of that one defensive post?
I think I'm happy, though, with my vote staying on bman.
Because he's 'not making sense'?
I always analyze the logic behind important situations. It's what I do.
And the point of mafia isn't to survive. It's to win. We shouldn't be trying just to stay alive but find what the best option for the town is--even if it's dying.
Yeah, but if you're really bulletproof, then you being lynched would be a huuuuuge waste of your power. Question...were you intentionally trying to not defend yourself?
[color=Green]After a quick read, this is what I make of things:
Town
Zebi
Kraj
Likely Town
Seppel
Gamerz
Neutral
jskura
ZDS
Likely Scum
iLord
WoD
BMan
Scum
DartDragon
Nom_Anor
That said, I probably need a better re-read.
However, I feel confident enough to say his appaling arguments earn this vote.
Vote: DartDragon[/color]
Why do you have Zebi as town? Was Nom's claim taken into account when you made this list (I noticed you posted this 11 minutes after Nom's claim). If not, does that claim make his placement on your list change?
[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]Usually it is only players who have something to hide that melt down. Especially newer scum players.[/COLOR]
You were a bit jumpy in response to the first randomvote on you, which I did chalk up to your inexperience, but it could have been what I would refer to as a "guilty conscience", ie they know they're scum, and panic when votes get laid upon them.
That was the reason for my confirmvotelynchpls post. Obviously I knew that there was no way a rational town would lynch you - I just wanted to see if you'd panic, and reveal scumness. Because it is usually the scums that melt down.
The problem, though, is that your post does not appear to be a random vote at all. I could understand, even, if you had just gone 'vote gamerz' with no other text. But to quote one of my posts and then go 'vote gamerz' does not feel like a 'random vote' to me. Especially since the post you quoted was one with serious questions in it.
And I still don't buy it that it helps to determine if that person is scum. I can see the guilty conscience thing, but then a townie could just as easily panic because they're being voted at for no justifiable reason...townies don't want to be lynched either...especially for no reason. I just see it as more a way to tell a person's personality as opposed to their alignment.
Anyways, regarding Nom and his claim. I just don't feel comfortable with the whole situation. Heck, he didn't even actually claim town in his post. I know that that's sort of 'presumed', and I don't call it scummy at all...it just doesn't help to alleviate any of my worries. I don't want to lynch him if he's telling the truth, because losing an unkillable townie would just...well...suck. But, at the same time, I don't want to just blindly accept his claim either, because it's a pretty easy claim to hide behind if you can get the town to believe it. I mean, how do you confirm his un-killability? You can't.[/color][/color][/color]
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
I would easily agree with you if he had actually tried to convince the town not to make him claim (aside from wifom/fear mongering). Since this is not what happened, I disagree with you.
You make a good point. On second inspection I see he was baiting us to make him claim.
You seem to be having an argument with yourself, so I'm leaving you to it. I do have this window constantly open, so it should always show me as watching this thread, even when I'm not home...
But fine, Seppel, what do you put me as?
Don't know. You haven't posted much and I don't remember who you replaced.
I am concerned about the people lurking but I don't know what it means.
I have seen people read the thread but not post. I don't remember which people (wish I remembered, I think JohnMoo was one of them).
I'm probably another. Not much has changed since my last post.
Nom is at -1. This is the lynch that needs to happen today, right or wrong. DD, Johm, Zebi, Bman, or Gamerz need to step up and do the deed.
However, Gamerz's last post knocked him from leaning town to leaning scum. For a great deal of the game he focused on me, then made 197 where he pointed out scummy things from a variety of players. He made one small comment about Nom (which I liked at the time). But in his last post, he makes a rather grande show about how torn he is over Nom, saying the townish reads he's getting "just doesn't help to alleviate any of my worries", worries that have expressed in a sum total of one point so far. I don't like it one tiny bit.
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I'm the cosmological constant, and I'm bulletproof.
Flavor's that even einstein wasn't able to kill me, since he tried, but people still think I exist.
My suspicions are now on: Gamerz, bman, and jsuka.
The "my suspicions" part sounds like you think that this claim is sufficiently townie to clear you. It isn't.
Quote from Nom »
@ilord: It's not that I had a problem with you making a case, but it looked like you were stretching to make it--you were trying to make suspicions out of nothing. And Kraj's responce to you was better, as it was completely out of the random stage and it was agressive, rather than defensive.
How is thinking that I was trying to "make suspicions out of nothing" not a problem with me making my case?
You said Gamerz's response was defensive because he defended against every point, with no other reasons why that post seemed suspicions to you. Kraj defended against every point as well, and I'm interested in how your definition of "aggressive" matches to your explanation of "defensive."
Quote from Nom »
I always analyze the logic behind important situations. It's what I do.
And the point of mafia isn't to survive. It's to win. We shouldn't be trying just to stay alive but find what the best option for the town is--even if it's dying.
You could go for both, you know. Nothing in that post prevented you from defending yourself and analyzing the situation.
The main point of a townie isn't to survive, but they'd definitely go for not being lynched and helping scum if they could help it.
Quote from Kraj »
Two reasons: A. I never said your behavior doesn't follow scenario 1 I said it might not, which is why it's a loaded question; B. As I already explained, the only way my logic re: Nom_Anor made sense was if I pointed out your behavior as scummy.
At this point, I still don't really follow your thought process (Specifically the point of introducing said arguments) but I think I can safely assume that it is your thought process.
Quote from Kraj »
Yep. So? How insightful do you expect people to be in their first post?
See, this was the problem I was talking about above. What is the point of an argument that basically says I'm either scum or town?
Quote from Kraj »
OK, now I'm intrigued. Walk me through, starting here.
Clearly "but" is a connector between two contrasting statements. The implication being that "iLord in particular tends to get caught for looking scummy early on when he's actually scum" and "I think Nom_Anor comes out looking the worst from all of this" are contrasting statements. Okay, we're on the same page so far. Now explain why this is an issue.
"The loud/scummy/quiet situation + scumiLord is scummy" contrasting "Nom_Anor is scummiest" is how I viewed it, but I see what you're contrasting now.
That does lead to another question however, which is why you decided to bring up the "scum iLord is scummy" argument if you didn't feel it was applicable.
Quote from bman »
Nope, however my vote was there just to generate discussion in some shape or form, not as a "I'm convinced that you are scum, and I need to draw everyone's attention to it" vote. Therefore I took it off.
Yeah, I second ZDS's query asking what you learned for this, as well as asking you what you expected to learn from it before doing it.
Too many new players are learning to do random stuff "for reactions."
Quote from WoD »
That was the reason for my confirmvotelynchpls post. Obviously I knew that there was no way a rational town would lynch you - I just wanted to see if you'd panic, and reveal scumness. Because it is usually the scums that melt down.
Apparently, ZDS interpreted your "lynchplz" as serious.
Quote from Seppel »
The smiley here is to notify Kraj that he could turn this into another huge argument but is unwilling to do so because iLord feels / knows that Kraj is on the same team as him.
I'm conflicted on Kraj now, mostly because I understand a lot more of actual thought process. While there might not be many of my earlier points against him that are valid, Kraj has done nothing to convince me that he's town either.
Quote from Seppel »
Makes sense from a bulletproof townie perspective. If he withheld that claim, we might have gained a free day from a mafia kill on him.
Still doesn't explain why he decided to not to answer any points against him.
Quote from Nom »
Well, honestly, from the point I was the player under the most suspicion, my ability was useless. The mafia isn't going to shoot the player whose on the lynching table. So I really didn't mind claiming.
This contrasts with what I read from your earlier post - do you believe that your claim benefited your position?
Quote from Gamerz »
Actually, blending in would require him posting more.
That's actually very true.
Quote from Gamerz »
Hmm, seems believable. See no problem with it either, but of course, day 1, it's easier to get away with a false-claim since there's no evidence that would help point out otherwise. And the other thing that bugs me about this claim is that it seems hard to actually confirm short of him...getting killed.
Did you expect him to have a easily-confirmable role?
Quote from Seppel »
Zebi is town.
I dunno. I would've agreed with you, except his claim analysis post seems completely forced. I mean, he could've easily looked up CC on Wiki if he didn't know what it was or what a bulletproof townie was rather than assume that Nom's BS'ing some random role with Einstein shooting people.
It's not even laziness (Well, it is partially), but I'm reading it as Zebi's just finding reasons to criticize Nom's claim. Not sure why though.
Quote from Kraj »
However, Gamerz's last post knocked him from leaning town to leaning scum. For a great deal of the game he focused on me, then made 197 where he pointed out scummy things from a variety of players. He made one small comment about Nom (which I liked at the time). But in his last post, he makes a rather grande show about how torn he is over Nom, saying the townish reads he's getting "just doesn't help to alleviate any of my worries", worries that have expressed in a sum total of one point so far. I don't like it one tiny bit.
Lulz at the irony, but I don't think that part was scummy at all. He's reacting exactly as scumNom's hoping for the newer townies to react - backing off at his claim. I'm just seeing newbGamerz overvaluing Nom's role.
That is an utter lie. I was not on here from about 5:30(eastern time) last night to right now, since I was at concert followed by all night gaming till 4 this morning.
ZDS is so scum.
And, as little chance I think there is of any of you believing me, I'm going to come clean. I'm actually not bulletproof.
I'm the vig.
I thought bulletproof was a claim good enough to save me from getting lynched, so I could come out as bulletproof, not die, and not worry about ever getting killed by the scum. Because by claiming bulletproof, you become bulletproof.
After I claimed bulletproof, there was no chance in hell the mafia would try and nightkill me, since they would know I was town and would assume I wasn't lying. So I'd be able to walzt through without fear of randomly getting shot at night.
So yeah, apparently bulletproof isn't as powerful a claim as I though it was. I kind of figured it would be the "oh he's blank power role, let's back off him now" reaction, but it didn't happen at all.
I am actually The Pythagoreans. I'm like a secret society who will eliminate anyone who dares defy mathematics. I poison people to death on even nights and burn them on odd nights.
So, yeah. I guess I should stop falseclaiming when I'm town. It always seems like a really good idea at the time, then it blows up in my face.
Sorry.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Well, honestly, from the point I was the player under the most suspicion, my ability was useless. The mafia isn't going to shoot the player whose on the lynching table. So I really didn't mind claiming.
Which displays your understanding that bulletproof in such a situation isn't a "powerful" claim at all. Your stated mindset makes no sense - if you understand that bulletproof for a townie who's under suspicion is useless, then why did you feel that other people would go "oh he's a blank power role, let's back off him now?"
Trying to claim vig so that we keep you alive one more night is not going to work.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
You mean to refer to the fact you falseclaimed in this game and were town ?
I've seen scum deliberately mimic their past mistakes and terrible plays so many times it's sad. If anything, repeating a gambit that terribly backfired the last time you did it is a huge scum tell. A townie has no business doing something they know is wrong.
Yeah, yeah.
Just be glad I didn't get to night. I was so going to kill you.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Well, I was going to shoot you because I think you're scum, so I don't know how big a compliment that is.
Oh, by the way, I was the SK. So I claimed bulletproof so that the scum wouldn't try and shoot me at night--if I'd convinced everyone to back off, I would have been home free.
Yeah. I'll stop posting now so that I don't clog the thread.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
The "my suspicions" part sounds like you think that this claim is sufficiently townie to clear you. It isn't.
How is thinking that I was trying to "make suspicions out of nothing" not a problem with me making my case?
You said Gamerz's response was defensive because he defended against every point, with no other reasons why that post seemed suspicions to you. Kraj defended against every point as well, and I'm interested in how your definition of "aggressive" matches to your explanation of "defensive."
You could go for both, you know. Nothing in that post prevented you from defending yourself and analyzing the situation.
The main point of a townie isn't to survive, but they'd definitely go for not being lynched and helping scum if they could help it.
At this point, I still don't really follow your thought process (Specifically the point of introducing said arguments) but I think I can safely assume that it is your thought process.
See, this was the problem I was talking about above. What is the point of an argument that basically says I'm either scum or town?
"The loud/scummy/quiet situation + scumiLord is scummy" contrasting "Nom_Anor is scummiest" is how I viewed it, but I see what you're contrasting now.
That does lead to another question however, which is why you decided to bring up the "scum iLord is scummy" argument if you didn't feel it was applicable.
Yeah, I second ZDS's query asking what you learned for this, as well as asking you what you expected to learn from it before doing it.
Too many new players are learning to do random stuff "for reactions."
Apparently, ZDS interpreted your "lynchplz" as serious.
I'm conflicted on Kraj now, mostly because I understand a lot more of actual thought process. While there might not be many of my earlier points against him that are valid, Kraj has done nothing to convince me that he's town either.
Still doesn't explain why he decided to not to answer any points against him.
This contrasts with what I read from your earlier post - do you believe that your claim benefited your position?
That's actually very true.
Did you expect him to have a easily-confirmable role?
I dunno. I would've agreed with you, except his claim analysis post seems completely forced. I mean, he could've easily looked up CC on Wiki if he didn't know what it was or what a bulletproof townie was rather than assume that Nom's BS'ing some random role with Einstein shooting people.
It's not even laziness (Well, it is partially), but I'm reading it as Zebi's just finding reasons to criticize Nom's claim. Not sure why though.
Lulz at the irony, but I don't think that part was scummy at all. He's reacting exactly as scumNom's hoping for the newer townies to react - backing off at his claim. I'm just seeing newbGamerz overvaluing Nom's role.
That is an utter lie. I was not on here from about 5:30(eastern time) last night to right now, since I was at concert followed by all night gaming till 4 this morning.
ZDS is so scum.
And, as little chance I think there is of any of you believing me, I'm going to come clean. I'm actually not bulletproof.
I'm the vig.
I thought bulletproof was a claim good enough to save me from getting lynched, so I could come out as bulletproof, not die, and not worry about ever getting killed by the scum. Because by claiming bulletproof, you become bulletproof.
After I claimed bulletproof, there was no chance in hell the mafia would try and nightkill me, since they would know I was town and would assume I wasn't lying. So I'd be able to walzt through without fear of randomly getting shot at night.
So yeah, apparently bulletproof isn't as powerful a claim as I though it was. I kind of figured it would be the "oh he's blank power role, let's back off him now" reaction, but it didn't happen at all.
I am actually The Pythagoreans. I'm like a secret society who will eliminate anyone who dares defy mathematics. I poison people to death on even nights and burn them on odd nights.
So, yeah. I guess I should stop falseclaiming when I'm town. It always seems like a really good idea at the time, then it blows up in my face.
Sorry.
Oh, by the way, I was the SK. So I claimed bulletproof so that the scum wouldn't try and shoot me at night--if I'd convinced everyone to back off, I would have been home free.
Well that at least makes sense.
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If Gamerz is scum, then what do you think his post implies regarding Nom_Anor ?
Not a darn thing. Gamerz's post looks like he's being noncommittal on Nom's wagon while making it appear like he supported it more than he actually did. This is scummy regardless of Nom's alignment.
Explain why it needs to happen. (as opposed to "should happen")
Explain why it does not matter if its right or if its wrong.
Because the only reason it wouldn't happen is because all the remaining voters *****foot around, won't make a decision, everyone else gets frustrated, the wagon collapses, and some other wagon starts maybe when someone feels like putting a case together. This will all take about 3 weeks to happen. It kills games.
That does lead to another question however, which is why you decided to bring up the "scum iLord is scummy" argument if you didn't feel it was applicable.
I am so sick of repeating this. Either you get it or you don't. Everyone else seems to; you don't. Go reread until you figure it out, or drop it. I'm done trying to explain it to you.
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FTR: I </3 your flavor, WoD.
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Yeah, but it doesn't even feel like you're trying to look into it...it just feels like you're 'mmhmm, mmhmm'-ing your way through the whole exchange. Granted, you weren't the only one, and I had a strong temptation to do just that considering the length of the exchange.
The thing is, even if you get things wrong or say things wrong, at least you might be able to help just through the interactions that come from you getting lynched from your mistakes. And, even if you do make mistakes, it doesn't mean that you're going to get lynched. You're going to make mistakes, it's a given, but that's no reason not to get involved. The only way you're going to get better is to actually try.
Heh, but of course, this I can see as exhibit A of what you're afraid of. Trying to catch scum by acting scummy is never a good idea. You're not going to be able to get any good tells from it because you're just going to get scum and townies alike going after you.
The problem I see with this vote is that you're voting him, not because he's scummy, but because he's 'making very little sense'...which isn't necessarily scummy.
What implications don't you like? I'm not sure I follow.
Something that just bugged me now. Why would you want to see if I'd panic? Wouldn't it be just as likely that I'd do that if I was town considering how out of nowhere your vote was? I'm not sure I see why trying to make someone 'melt down' is a good idea.
Uh...what vote was that? Your lack of attention to this game annoys me.
What vibes would this be?
He's 'meh', his plays seems townish...but you have him as 'leaning scum'? Why?
Baby steps.
Well, it's not like you have many posts of yours to sift through to find out.
So then I look at his wagoneers: Kraj, ZDS, iLord.
Wooo, what a mess trying to sort through that. I'm now (somewhat) of the mindset that Kraj and iLord are now both town or both scum due to their mutually-agreed stepping-down. I only say somewhat because I realized that when Kraj quoted my post, I gave them a perfect opportunity to step town from the mudslinging.
IGMEOAOY. Christ.
By hitting reload, duh. I don't remember seeing the "Resend POST data" box, though.
I don't understand how you believe my question was loaded. Basically, what I'm asking here is why you decided to pose scenario 1 if you believe that my behavior does not follow scenario 1.
Basically, you're saying I'm either loud town or loud scum, which is hardly an insightful conclusion.
Hmm. You are saying that "but" isn't a connector for two contrasting statements?
What happened to barning being scummy?
Glad to see that you're interested.
You mind answering some of the points against you? Namely:
1. You said that you didn't mind my case against Gamerz, yet you voted me for it right off the bat.
2. You said that you didn't like Gamerz defense to my case because he felt inclined to answer everything. What about Kraj's more "defensive"/extensive response to me case?
-------------------------
For the record, I typically prefer to keep my town views on newer players private, as I don't like to encourage the newb town behavior that gives me these reads.
Generally, I find that panicked new players are a lot easier to read than guarded new players.
I strongly disagree that Nom is not the correct lynch for today. He has continuously avoided questions against him and is blatantly going for easy targets.
Look at his last post - he doesn't even attempt to alleviate the suspicion on himself, instead preferring to analyze the logistics of the situation. This is not town behavior.
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Gut. I dunno. It hasn't been wrong yet.
If there was a category in between leaning scum and neutral, he would probably be there
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"People" were lurking, and you fully admit to being "all fluff." Not sure what you're referring to when you say I was "interrogating people as to their votes," or how that would be a scumtell for you. And not sure what you're talking about with Gamerz. What makes "interrogation" a necessary prerequisite to voting someone?
However, both options 1 and 3 give us more information to work with. 1 gets us a claim, and maybe a lynch to see if you were true with your claim, and we can go from that. 3 gets us your info which we can work off that.
About the only good thing I have been able to see from NA, was the small attack on bman for the hypocrisy. Even though there was a preemptive attack on bman for lurking that was fairly weak as well. Thinking ZDS is scum for asking questions is fairly poor, since questions = info and info = Good Thing.
Anyway, vote NA
(ps, I'm a guy)
Also, WoD's return is not at all satisfying. He's still basically said nothing, having lifted some of the most common threads of discussion and restated them with no reasoning or insight into his thought process at all. Seems like he's trying to blend in.
I'm the cosmological constant, and I'm bulletproof.
Flavor's that even einstein wasn't able to kill me, since he tried, but people still think I exist.
My suspicions are now on: Gamerz, bman, and jsuka.
Gamerz and bman as mentioned previously, and jsuka because he waited until now to jump on the wagon with poor reasons.
I think I'm happy, though, with my vote staying on bman.
@jsuka: I think ZDS is wtfing because if I'm dead, it wouldn't matter much if I were lying about my claim or not.
@ilord: It's not that I had a problem with you making a case, but it looked like you were stretching to make it--you were trying to make suspicions out of nothing. And Kraj's responce to you was better, as it was completely out of the random stage and it was agressive, rather than defensive.
I always analyze the logic behind important situations. It's what I do.
And the point of mafia isn't to survive. It's to win. We shouldn't be trying just to stay alive but find what the best option for the town is--even if it's dying.
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Awesome. 317 words spent to say "people should either vote me or persue someone else". Sorry if this is genuine, Nom, but this looks like a huge pile of trying to appear like you're looking out for the town's best interests without actually saying anything of substance. And if you're scum and thought that if you made a really long post you could subtly weave in language that presumes your towniness like "or we should all back off and go scumhunting" and we wouldn't notice...well, we did.
* Kraj waves cheerily at this very pro-town question.
Correction: Everyone who isn't interested in voting Nom_Anor, vote DragonDart already. When in doubt, follow Seppel's gut.
Can you qualify this with something more concrete? So far I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from my original gut reaction to Nom; I'm very interested in hearing a contrasting point of view, especially from someone I'm reading as town so far.
Two reasons: A. I never said your behavior doesn't follow scenario 1 I said it might not, which is why it's a loaded question; B. As I already explained, the only way my logic re: Nom_Anor made sense was if I pointed out your behavior as scummy.
Yep. So? How insightful do you expect people to be in their first post?
OK, now I'm intrigued. Walk me through, starting here.
Clearly "but" is a connector between two contrasting statements. The implication being that "iLord in particular tends to get caught for looking scummy early on when he's actually scum" and "I think Nom_Anor comes out looking the worst from all of this" are contrasting statements. Okay, we're on the same page so far. Now explain why this is an issue.
Joking tone noted, but it's a question worth answering. Agreeing with other people is common and there's nothing scummy about it. It becomes scummy when either a. the way you go about it has the effect of supporting suspicion on someone while not appearing like you're attacking that player, or b. it is part of an established pattern.
The question isn't about what your basis is, the question is about contradicting reads: you say you're neutral/leaning town but then say you're neutral/leaning scum. What changed?
I'm interested in the response to this.
This is quite true.
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Asking people to get off your wagon with out discussing any of the issues that lead to people being on your wagon is pretty much asking for being voted in to claim range.
That said I don't really understand WoD vote for two reasons:
A) His post two prior to his "I thought I was already voting" statement is him unvoting
B) He still hasn't explained his vote on Nom, or why he thought he was already on the wagon.
Unvote.
FoS WoD.
Nope, however my vote was there just to generate discussion in some shape or form, not as a "I'm convinced that you are scum, and I need to draw everyone's attention to it" vote. Therefore I took it off.
You were a bit jumpy in response to the first randomvote on you, which I did chalk up to your inexperience, but it could have been what I would refer to as a "guilty conscience", ie they know they're scum, and panic when votes get laid upon them.
That was the reason for my confirmvotelynchpls post. Obviously I knew that there was no way a rational town would lynch you - I just wanted to see if you'd panic, and reveal scumness. Because it is usually the scums that melt down.
It was a sensible way to lead in to the claim if he is a townie.
To answer that, I'd actually have to reread, so here's something from iLord's most recent post to Kraj:
The smiley here is to notify Kraj that he could turn this into another huge argument but is unwilling to do so because iLord feels / knows that Kraj is on the same team as him.
Makes sense from a bulletproof townie perspective. If he withheld that claim, we might have gained a free day from a mafia kill on him.
See above.
Well, I'm sorry I'm not as high a power role as you seemed to think I was implying.
So far as death being the best optionin this case, that was not what I was trying to imply. I was expressing that simply trying to defend myself might not be the best course for the town. And, yes, sometimes when you're town, voluntarily dying can be the best course of action--I can't remember the details, but I came to this conclusion in a recent game; I think we decided against it in the end.
It might not have "been of substance," but I took what information and experience I had to work with and looked for the best conclusion. I don't think just telling everyone "hey, vote for me now or back off!?" without any explanation would make much sense, and that's what the post was: explaining why I reached the conclusion I did.
And I'm sorry if I "weaved in" language biased in my favor, but I would point out, that was the part of the argument when we were presuming my innocence:
"So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting."
The wagon on me part was what would happen if everyone though I was scum. There would be a wagon on me, like there is.
The back off and go scumhunting was what would happen if everyone thought I was town.
Yes, I'm going to use language presuming my innocence in the "what to do if we all think I'm town section.
Well, honestly, from the point I was the player under the most suspicion, my ability was useless. The mafia isn't going to shoot the player whose on the lynching table. So I really didn't mind claiming.
@Seppel:
Could you explain what about DD makes you think he's mafia? I've been reading him as town for quite a while now, so I really don't see it at all.
I have issues with this claim.
Do you have a name?
What does bulletproof mean?
Since when does Einstein use bullets to kill people?
What's cosmological constant? Is that some kind of a special role?
Einstein tried to kill you, why would he do that? He seems like a nice guy, why would he kill another nice guy?
Is that all the flavor you got? I got a lot more than that.
He tried to kill you, and failed, but people still think you exist? So.. that would mean you're dead, and people are wrong in thinking that you exist?
I could be overanalyzing, but yuck. Will wait to vote until after responses.
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From Billy Goat Mafia(where I was, like every single game I've played in, town)
And here's something similar but with a different rational--letting my inevitable death happen early so the scummy players can get lynched.
From Persona Mafia
Now, I'm not saying it is a good choice to lynch me in this case, since unlike in the above two cases, there's no advantage to it. I'm just saying it's not as far out in left field as ZDS thinks.
Lol.
1. Yes. I am the cosmological constant.
2. Bulletproof means I can't be killed at night.
3. Einstein did not use bullets to kill people(I hope).
4. It's my name. Wikipedia says it's something Einstein used to modify general relativity.
5. Something about universal expansion proving it wrong. Wikipedia isn't very clear except he though it was his "biggest blunder."
6. Yup. May I suggest not mentioning having a large amount of flavor, since it probably means you're more important. So you could be drawing a bullseye on your head.
7. You got me. I've don't have a clue.
See the part where he (I thought DragonDart was a "she") voted Gamerz.
Hi. You must be new to mafia.
Why yes, I am.
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Please elaborate. I don't see how this explains your opinion of him before he claimed.
Except you didn't. All you did was list every possible scenario. There was no analysis, no information based on experience, and no conclusion - just stating the obvious, John Madden style. "Either we lynch me, we wagon someone else, or we don't do anything and the game stagnates." Duh.
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1. Oh okay, I thought it was a special role.
2. Figured, that's fair.
3. Okay. I just assumed because you're bulletproof, and that Einstein failed to kill you, there was some sort of link there.
4. Understood.
5. Fair.
6. Okay, just wondering. And I realize that now, yes, but having more than one line of flavor means nothing, really.
7. Score.
I think I'm liking Nom's claim. The one thing bugging me still is the name.
Did you just get 'Cosmological Constant'? If that's your name, shouldn't there be a Vanilla Townie or a Town Cop or whatever after it? I've never heard of a normal person named Cosmological Constant.
^^ Not interrogation, just wondering. ^^
And I like this defeatism, not sure why. I said before that I didn't like defeatism, but looking back, all the defeatism cases I've seen that were scummy were somewhat of a single blow-up post without any rationale. Nom has provided thought as to his self destruction, and I think deserves to live, or at least have the day prolonged to get more discussion going.
Of course, I could be painting a big target on my back here, but hey. I'm trying. -_-
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Kraj has already stated why I asked the question in the first place, so let's try this again differently (because I am not so insane as to ask the same question again expecting a different answer).
Why would you put him as 'leaning scum' if everything you stated earlier about him seemed to show that you had no reason to actually find him scummy?
Actually, blending in would require him posting more.
Hmm, seems believable. See no problem with it either, but of course, day 1, it's easier to get away with a false-claim since there's no evidence that would help point out otherwise. And the other thing that bugs me about this claim is that it seems hard to actually confirm short of him...getting killed.
Are you still after me because of that one defensive post?
Because he's 'not making sense'?
Yeah, but if you're really bulletproof, then you being lynched would be a huuuuuge waste of your power. Question...were you intentionally trying to not defend yourself?
Why do you have Zebi as town? Was Nom's claim taken into account when you made this list (I noticed you posted this 11 minutes after Nom's claim). If not, does that claim make his placement on your list change?
The problem, though, is that your post does not appear to be a random vote at all. I could understand, even, if you had just gone 'vote gamerz' with no other text. But to quote one of my posts and then go 'vote gamerz' does not feel like a 'random vote' to me. Especially since the post you quoted was one with serious questions in it.
And I still don't buy it that it helps to determine if that person is scum. I can see the guilty conscience thing, but then a townie could just as easily panic because they're being voted at for no justifiable reason...townies don't want to be lynched either...especially for no reason. I just see it as more a way to tell a person's personality as opposed to their alignment.
Anyways, regarding Nom and his claim. I just don't feel comfortable with the whole situation. Heck, he didn't even actually claim town in his post. I know that that's sort of 'presumed', and I don't call it scummy at all...it just doesn't help to alleviate any of my worries. I don't want to lynch him if he's telling the truth, because losing an unkillable townie would just...well...suck. But, at the same time, I don't want to just blindly accept his claim either, because it's a pretty easy claim to hide behind if you can get the town to believe it. I mean, how do you confirm his un-killability? You can't.[/color][/color][/color]
See the below quote that you already responded to asking for more elaboration that I provided:
If you'd like, I can continue this conversation ad infinitum using nothing but our quotes.
In conclusion: Seppelgut is right.
You make a good point. On second inspection I see he was baiting us to make him claim.
I'm down.
Unvote, vote Nom_Anor
PARANOiA
Don't know. You haven't posted much and I don't remember who you replaced.
I am concerned about the people lurking but I don't know what it means.
I LIVE IN THE MOMENT
People still play Magic?
I'm 70% for his lynch right now.
I'm probably another. Not much has changed since my last post.
Nom is at -1. This is the lynch that needs to happen today, right or wrong. DD, Johm, Zebi, Bman, or Gamerz need to step up and do the deed.
However, Gamerz's last post knocked him from leaning town to leaning scum. For a great deal of the game he focused on me, then made 197 where he pointed out scummy things from a variety of players. He made one small comment about Nom (which I liked at the time). But in his last post, he makes a rather grande show about how torn he is over Nom, saying the townish reads he's getting "just doesn't help to alleviate any of my worries", worries that have expressed in a sum total of one point so far. I don't like it one tiny bit.
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She knows why.
Nom (6) - Kraj, ZDS, iLord, WoD, Jskura, Seppel
DD (1) - Johm000
Bman (1) - Nom_Amor,
Gamerz (1) - DD
Not Voting: Bman, Gamerz, Zebi
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Sally is being difficult
The "my suspicions" part sounds like you think that this claim is sufficiently townie to clear you. It isn't.
How is thinking that I was trying to "make suspicions out of nothing" not a problem with me making my case?
You said Gamerz's response was defensive because he defended against every point, with no other reasons why that post seemed suspicions to you. Kraj defended against every point as well, and I'm interested in how your definition of "aggressive" matches to your explanation of "defensive."
You could go for both, you know. Nothing in that post prevented you from defending yourself and analyzing the situation.
The main point of a townie isn't to survive, but they'd definitely go for not being lynched and helping scum if they could help it.
At this point, I still don't really follow your thought process (Specifically the point of introducing said arguments) but I think I can safely assume that it is your thought process.
See, this was the problem I was talking about above. What is the point of an argument that basically says I'm either scum or town?
"The loud/scummy/quiet situation + scumiLord is scummy" contrasting "Nom_Anor is scummiest" is how I viewed it, but I see what you're contrasting now.
That does lead to another question however, which is why you decided to bring up the "scum iLord is scummy" argument if you didn't feel it was applicable.
Yeah, I second ZDS's query asking what you learned for this, as well as asking you what you expected to learn from it before doing it.
Too many new players are learning to do random stuff "for reactions."
Apparently, ZDS interpreted your "lynchplz" as serious.
I'm conflicted on Kraj now, mostly because I understand a lot more of actual thought process. While there might not be many of my earlier points against him that are valid, Kraj has done nothing to convince me that he's town either.
Still doesn't explain why he decided to not to answer any points against him.
This contrasts with what I read from your earlier post - do you believe that your claim benefited your position?
That's actually very true.
Did you expect him to have a easily-confirmable role?
I dunno. I would've agreed with you, except his claim analysis post seems completely forced. I mean, he could've easily looked up CC on Wiki if he didn't know what it was or what a bulletproof townie was rather than assume that Nom's BS'ing some random role with Einstein shooting people.
It's not even laziness (Well, it is partially), but I'm reading it as Zebi's just finding reasons to criticize Nom's claim. Not sure why though.
Lulz at the irony, but I don't think that part was scummy at all. He's reacting exactly as scumNom's hoping for the newer townies to react - backing off at his claim. I'm just seeing newbGamerz overvaluing Nom's role.
-----------------------------------
My Custom Set: Solescurio
That is an utter lie. I was not on here from about 5:30(eastern time) last night to right now, since I was at concert followed by all night gaming till 4 this morning.
ZDS is so scum.
And, as little chance I think there is of any of you believing me, I'm going to come clean. I'm actually not bulletproof.
I'm the vig.
I thought bulletproof was a claim good enough to save me from getting lynched, so I could come out as bulletproof, not die, and not worry about ever getting killed by the scum. Because by claiming bulletproof, you become bulletproof.
After I claimed bulletproof, there was no chance in hell the mafia would try and nightkill me, since they would know I was town and would assume I wasn't lying. So I'd be able to walzt through without fear of randomly getting shot at night.
So yeah, apparently bulletproof isn't as powerful a claim as I though it was. I kind of figured it would be the "oh he's blank power role, let's back off him now" reaction, but it didn't happen at all.
I am actually The Pythagoreans. I'm like a secret society who will eliminate anyone who dares defy mathematics. I poison people to death on even nights and burn them on odd nights.
So, yeah. I guess I should stop falseclaiming when I'm town. It always seems like a really good idea at the time, then it blows up in my face.
Sorry.
Which displays your understanding that bulletproof in such a situation isn't a "powerful" claim at all. Your stated mindset makes no sense - if you understand that bulletproof for a townie who's under suspicion is useless, then why did you feel that other people would go "oh he's a blank power role, let's back off him now?"
Trying to claim vig so that we keep you alive one more night is not going to work.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
And I love how none of the people
And ZDS, timezones make no difference here. Because from the time seppel made his post 233 to when you make your "I saw Nom" post, I was NEVER online.
-Nom "still hasn't been scum" Anor
Ooops. I guess that's what I get for posting while unhappy.
I was trying to say "I love how none of the people who were in Cubus's normal came into the thread before I was hammered."
Yeah, yeah.
Just be glad I didn't get to night. I was so going to kill you.
So Nom was mafia then? *sigh*
Note to self: Defeatism is always scummy.
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ZEBI: 1000% TOWN (Or amazingly epicly trolling us. I think town.)
Well, I was going to shoot you because I think you're scum, so I don't know how big a compliment that is.
Oh, by the way, I was the SK. So I claimed bulletproof so that the scum wouldn't try and shoot me at night--if I'd convinced everyone to back off, I would have been home free.
Yeah. I'll stop posting now so that I don't clog the thread.
Thanks everyone.
Well that at least makes sense.
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She knows why.
So I was right about Einstein not using bullets. I need to trust myself more.
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Not a darn thing. Gamerz's post looks like he's being noncommittal on Nom's wagon while making it appear like he supported it more than he actually did. This is scummy regardless of Nom's alignment.
Because the only reason it wouldn't happen is because all the remaining voters *****foot around, won't make a decision, everyone else gets frustrated, the wagon collapses, and some other wagon starts maybe when someone feels like putting a case together. This will all take about 3 weeks to happen. It kills games.
I am so sick of repeating this. Either you get it or you don't. Everyone else seems to; you don't. Go reread until you figure it out, or drop it. I'm done trying to explain it to you.
Possibly.
Ya think?
Reasons?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.