In Inheritance mafia, DesCoures made an argument that was utterly awful I decided it must be sincere because no scum would actually represent it as a valid argument. I'm having the same reaction to iLord's attack on me.
Apparently, I misinterpreted this part of his post, as I thought he thought dC was scum. Ignore that part then.
----------------------------------------
But other than that, I'm not seeing any flaws in my reasoning. The only way his second post makes sense is if he's scum. Nom has to be lying, but so must Kraj. But they definitely don't both read scum, looking at Kraj's continued push.
Hmm. Now that I've sufficiently confused myself, I'm going to dwell upon it and figure out what I should be thinking.
I think that at least 2 of Kraj / iLord / Nom are town. But the next step of these areguments are for all the participants to start spouting basic mafia theory and then shouting at each other for spouting basic mafia theory. It's mind-numbing and the watchers just get tired of hearing it because the StN ratio just keeps diminishing.
Results from my mulling over - unsurprisingly, I need more information and both Kraj and Nom's responses could make it obvious which one of the two is scummier. As it stands, it turns out my initial conclusion that Nom_Anor is more likely to be lying stands true. I can't see his mindset shifting so quickly from his initial criticism on my "laundry list."
I'm not convinced. His first post also makes sense as town, and his subsequent posts make more sense as town.
Do you think he is making up his explanations ? Why ?
I'll sum things up again after Kraj's response, but the whole focus of my attack has been trying to explain why he's making up these explanations.
Bah... looked at Janus, and Kraj has clearly changed his play style since I was here last. Still, it's not like that was all I posted about Kraj. I still don't like the iLord or Nom_Anor binary he set up in his first post. What's with that Kraj?
I don't really understand what iLord is talking about at this point... maybe it'll make sense after Kraj posts and he responds... looking at his first few posts, it seems like he just changed his mind quickly.
@zebi: We're now well past the random phase. Feel like participating yet?
@Wrath_of_Dog: So, now that you've successfully voted someone during the random stage, then unvoted, what are your plans for the future?
Oh, and to whoever asked if this is how Seppel always plays. Yes. Emphatically, yes.
But the next step of these areguments are for all the participants to start spouting basic mafia theory and then shouting at each other for spouting basic mafia theory. It's mind-numbing and the watchers just get tired of hearing it because the StN ratio just keeps diminishing.
Well, this "whole focus" you now mention is kind of lost between all that tunnel visioning. All you really do is show how much you believe your explanations are better and closer to the truth than his, but you fail to show us why we should listen to you over him.
And this.
As much as I'd like to feel vindicated by going around and around until I "win", right now I'm reading iLord as town and I don't think a text war would be particularly helpful right now. Even this post is going to be longer than I'd like to make right now. I'd much rather hear from the people who haven't commented on the situation yet, and I think that if there are parts of iLord's case that are important for me to respond to, it'll be because someone other than he or I brought it up.
Regarding it's content, I don't think that iLord's attack on me was unreasonable at all. And I certainly don't agree with him in that iLord is 'very scummy' (and I like iLord's point that Kraj calls iLord's actions 'very scummy' yet votes for Nom...does that make Nom 'very very scummy'?).
Well, basically, yes. It's sort of like, "who's the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that listens to the fool?" I found iLord's behavior to be scummy, but I found Nom's reaction to be much scummier, for the reasons I detailed in my last response to ZDS. There's nothing unusual about saying 'this player is scummy, but this player is scummier'; it's not even usual for players to say "both A and B are scummy, but probably not scum together", etc.
It seems like the biggest problem people have with this post is that it looks like I should have voted iLord based on my descriptions of their behavior. All I can say about that is: the reason scum keep getting away with sitting quietly while loud townies lynch each other is... because people keep wanting to lynch the loud townies instead of scrutinizing the quieter players. Voting iLord would be doing exactly the opposite of what my read on Nom says I should do.
I also agree with his point about Kraj's 'but I think'
Really?
Let's look at that point:
The "But I think" portion of the last line solidifies this reasoning, as that is hardly something to say after giving a logical train of thought
Essentially, he's saying that when applying logic it's odd for someone to state their conclusion as what they "think" rather than what they know. And that's just... it's nonsense. My preceeding statement is that my suspicions of Nom don't apply if iLord is scum; it all hinges on whether I think iLord is scum or town. "But I think" isn't out of place, it's essential.
And reading things over (and over (and over))), Kraj claims that he isn't calling iLord scummy at all, and his first long post, he seems to be taking careful steps not to infer at all that iLord is, in fact, scum. Yet, his post just before that, he calls out iLord for joining in on Nom's bandwagon...seeming to take glee in wondering which of the 2 of them will get lynched first. How is this not inferring that iLord is scum and not just 'scummy'?
OK, this is fair. My posts regarding iLord have been inconsistent on this, because things keep changing quickly. Regarding my post saying one of those two would be lynched: townies playing poorly often end up in situations where they become the best lynch in the town's eyes. At that point I hadn't made up my mind about whether iLord was scum or town, but I felt that his play would end up making him a top target today. I doubt iLord would deny that he has a knack for finding himself strung up early on regardles of his alignment.
Regarding taking careful steps not to infer iLord is scummy in my rebuttal: you read that exactly correctly. Not to come across as arrogant or anything, but I have a knack at getting people who attack me with bad arguments lynched. When it comes to actually detecting scum in this game, I'm average-at-best. But I'm pretty darn good at ripping poor arguments to shreds, and if I think my attacker is scum I'm pretty darn good at convincing others their attack on me is scum-motivated. I tried very hard in my response to stay objective and not let my frustration with iLord color my opinion of his attack. That's a big part of why I chose not to make a extensive reply to his last post.
So yes, I did specifically avoid portrating iLord's attack as scummy, not because I was scared of being called OMGUS like iLord thinks, but because I don't want to be in a him-or-me scenario unless I'd like to see him lynched.
Bah... looked at Janus, and Kraj has clearly changed his play style since I was here last. Still, it's not like that was all I posted about Kraj. I still don't like the iLord or Nom_Anor binary he set up in his first post. What's with that Kraj?
What precisely is your issue? I've already explained my reasoning in great detail, so please be specific. I'll also point out "binary" does not apply here. While my logic does create some alignment dependancies, binary is literally "either A or B is scum" and that's not the case at all. If Nom is lynched, for instance, and comes up town then binary logic says iLord must be scum. I said no such thing.
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What precisely is your issue? I've already explained my reasoning in great detail, so please be specific. I'll also point out "binary" does not apply here. While my logic does create some alignment dependancies, binary is literally "either A or B is scum" and that's not the case at all. If Nom is lynched, for instance, and comes up town then binary logic says iLord must be scum. I said no such thing.
I didn't mean an "alignment binary" (one scum, the other not), but a "today's lynch" binary (either Nom_Anor or iLord will be lynched today), which is what you said. You clarified this a bit in your latest post. You said you thought one of the two of them would be lynched today because loud townies playing badly have a tendency to get lynched, and you think iLord was doing that (or rather, he was just loud and playing badly, and you were unsure of his alignment). So... why is Nom_Anor included in that statement?
At what point exactly did you start reading iLord as town ?
I'm not sure there is an exact point, more of a gradual progression. I think my initial read on his attack of me was that it seemed genuine, which is the first step in that direction. His response to my rubuttal was frustrating but equally seemed genuine; I just don't feel like he's making this up in an attempt to get me lynched, I feel like he has a read and is persuing me over it. It's possible he genuinely sees weakness he can capitalize on, but I don't buy that; it's too early, the basis is too weak, and iLord ought to know I'm not going to self-destruct under pressure.
(you say you tend to see your attackers in a bad light, well all evidence shows iLord is the same and got angry at you because you attacked him)
I read it the same way (as I mentioned in my response). iLord initially throwing it in my face, then considering it, backing off, but resuming/maintaining his suspicion after re-evaluating; it all looks townie to me.
I didn't mean an "alignment binary" (one scum, the other not), but a "today's lynch" binary (either Nom_Anor or iLord will be lynched today), which is what you said. You clarified this a bit in your latest post. You said you thought one of the two of them would be lynched today because loud townies playing badly have a tendency to get lynched, and you think iLord was doing that (or rather, he was just loud and playing badly, and you were unsure of his alignment). So... why is Nom_Anor included in that statement?
I had a feeling you were referring to that but you specifically said my first post, so confusions.
Why is Nom_Anor included? Because I think he's scum who did exactly what I read him as doing, and it looks like several other people also think he's scum. Between my vote on him and my statement thinking he's a likely lynch, he responded and two other people had already said how much they disliked his response. It certainly looked/looks to me like he was/is going to be a top lynch candidate today.
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I had a feeling you were referring to that but you specifically said my first post, so confusions.
I thought it was in your first post, but I was going by memory. Sorry for the confusion.
Why is Nom_Anor included? Because I think he's scum who did exactly what I read him as doing, and it looks like several other people also think he's scum. Between my vote on him and my statement thinking he's a likely lynch, he responded and two other people had already said how much they disliked his response. It certainly looked/looks to me like he was/is going to be a top lynch candidate today.
I thought I had a point here... but it seems I simply don't. I don't like when people pare the game down to a choice between two options, but I think that's not actually what you intended to offer, just what you predicted happening.
Unvote
@jskura: I just realized that you never actually addressed my question about why you were so upset that the Gamerz wagon propelled the game out of the random stage. Please do. Why do you care about this?
I don't really have a problem with Nom_Anor at this point. I think he's made some questionable points (saying that zebi looks good for panicking about a possible quicklynch when there's no more than 2 or 3 votes on anyone?; or that bman looks town because he lurked when he was scum once... nevermind it's still too early for that to really be the case), but I don't think those points are necessarily scummy, just... not insightful.
He seems to have a problem communicating clearly, but so far his responses to iLord and Kraj seem reasonable to me. I had a similar reaction to Gamerz's early responses to iLord's case, that he was a bit defensive, considering the massive 2-vote "wagon" he was facing when he decided he needed to vote himself to get them to stop voting him and also to "call them out" for... trying to get a reaction... which is what he said he was doing.
And now that I think about that again... it's still bothering me. It reminds me a lot of iLord's play at the beginning of Song of Ice & Fire, where Axelrod prodded him about some early action (no idea what it actually was) and he got worked up trying to explain why he did it to the extent that it became clear he was covering it up for the sake of covering it up.
And now that I think about that again... it's still bothering me. It reminds me a lot of iLord's play at the beginning of Song of Ice & Fire, where Axelrod prodded him about some early action (no idea what it actually was) and he got worked up trying to explain why he did it to the extent that it became clear he was covering it up for the sake of covering it up.
Vote Gamerz
So you're voting soneone whose thought pattern sounds legit and it ISN'T what he does as scum and it IS a normal nervous townie thing to do. BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE ONE TIME IN THIS ONE GAME THIS ONE GUY DID THIS ONE THING.
Wow, that was pretty bad. Any reason you decided to attack Gamerz over his defence post now rather than earlier, other than "thinking about it again" ?
Looking over Nom_Anor got me to look over Gamerz's early stuff, which I'd had reservations about earlier (I think I posted about it too). And this feels stronger to me than anything on anybody else. I don't take notes, and I go with my suspicions when they come to me (unless I feel there is a strong, specific reason to wait until later). I don't take notes, and sometimes it takes me a while to process things.
And for that matter, I must have missed the parts where you agreed with N_A. (I missed them or they weren't there in the first place)
...I don't think those points are necessarily scummy, just... not insightful.
...so far his responses to iLord and Kraj seem reasonable to me. I had a similar reaction to Gamerz's early responses to iLord's case...
I said I didn't have a problem with N_A, not that I agreed with him. Or are you talking about something else?
So you're voting soneone whose thought pattern sounds legit and it ISN'T what he does as scum and it IS a normal nervous townie thing to do. BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE ONE TIME IN THIS ONE GAME THIS ONE GUY DID THIS ONE THING.
No.
Unvote, vote DragonDart
I haven't played any games with him as scum, so I don't know "what he does as scum" (as though people always do the same thing as scum anyway).
What I'm saying is that I don't think his retrospective explanations make sense. If he'd simply said "I freaked out because I thought I was going to be lynched" that'd make sense to me. But also saying that he was trying to call them out, or catch them in something, and also saying that he figured they voted him to get a reaction... it doesn't add up.
The bit about iLord is there to help get across what I'm seeing. The explanations Gamerz gave for the self-vote changed as people questioned him, and they contradict each other.
@ZDS: I've read Gamerz's other posts, but it's the contradictions at the beginning that are bothering me. .
Unfortunately I don't agree with your vote, Dragon. I still believe that Gamerz was just responding to posts, and no matter whether you're town or scum, things are going to contradict each other. He was responding to things, and that early in teh game, opinions are obviously going to change.
I still can't decide what's up with Lord/Nom/Kraj. Kraj's posts feel very town to me, not sure why - just a gut. Right now, all I have is gut feelings, and none of them are strong enough to warrant a vote.
I'm just trying to decide whether you guys are the generic loud townies that get themselves into trouble early, or if there's real suspicion going on.
I'm just trying to decide whether you guys are the generic loud townies that get themselves into trouble early, or if there's real suspicion going on.
Huh. I realize I'm the one pushing the 'loud townies get lynched' thing, but I'm surprised to see you jumping onboard with the idea almost verbatim. What made you decide to incorporate the idea of 'loud townies' into your analysis?
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Huh. I realize I'm the one pushing the 'loud townies get lynched' thing, but I'm surprised to see you jumping onboard with the idea almost verbatim. What made you decide to incorporate the idea of 'loud townies' into your analysis?
Because there's 4 people all talking a lot, and noone else is doing much. It seems like a valid point in this game specifically.
1. I'm still suspicious of Gamerz. His post since last time didn't have anything jumping out at me, but it also did nothing to alleviate my suspicions.
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum.
Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
3. I still like Zebi. I'd appreciate him or her to not keep fence sitting, though.
4. I'm not really sure on Jsuka. I'm having a harder time reading him or her than expected.
5. ZDS has been rather scummy to me. I don't like the way he's sitting back and taking on the inquisitor role, asking question after question and giving his own thoughts only occasionally. Is not asking questions a good way to seem involved on something without having to give his own position? (yes, I did intend the irony in phrasing that as a question)
6. Dragon Darts has seemed good to me. However, this might be me biased as he's been supportive of my side.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
ZDS has been rather scummy to me. I don't like the way he's sitting back and taking on the inquisitor role, asking question after question and giving his own thoughts only occasionally.
I would not put this as scummy for ZDS. This is ZDS at his finest, able to evade anyone's attempt to get a good read on him. This is how he acts at both town and scum. He is a master of hiding the tell.
[font=georgia]to be fair, there was no reason why his first post should have been a wall of text. He wasn't responding to anything in particular, and even less defending against anything.
Yeah, but in his first post, he doesn't actually provide all that much reasoning for Nom and iLord's scumminess (most of the second paragraph is talking about 'loud townies and quiet scum') but then goes into great detail after that. It just seems like he was trying to spread suspicion and then, when he got called on it, then he explains more.
I'm not convinced. His first post also makes sense as town, and his subsequent posts make more sense as town.
Do you think he is making up his explanations ? Why ?
I think it's quite possible that he could be making them up. Kraj seems like a very intelligent person who is quite capable of speaking his mind in great detail. I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for him to make up these arguments on the fly.
As for why? Well, I think what could have been happening is that he initially calls iLord and Nom out...making sure that, like iLord noticed, that he's got a foot in both wagons. His post not long after about Nom and iLord being the likely lynch at that point still feels to me like there's too much 'glee' in what he perceives to be the endgame for the day. Not to mention that it seems like it's way too eaerly to even be making that sort of statement...it feels like he's saying this as a way to try to get everyone to go along with it because it seems so 'obvious'. I will say, though, that he could just be an arrogant townie, feeling confident that, not only does he have a good read, but that others are going to follow along with it (which does match his later statement that he feels he's very good at picking apart poor arguments...not to mention that he actually does seem like he's very good at it).
Anyways, moving on, after iLord's attack on him, his next post, he seems to be backing off about iLord being scum at that point, and in subsquent posts, mentions only Nom as being the scum, seeming to think that iLord is town now. It feels like he could have decided, 'You know what? I think I'll have an easier time going after Nom than after iLord', but still responds to iLord, because, well, he still has to defend himself.
Do I feel that this is likely? Well, I definitely feel like it's a possibility, but let's look at the flipside...like I said, his post regarding Nom or iLord being the lynch could just be him being arrogant, feeling his points should stand against either of them. Regarding his switch to iLord being town, I like his point about iLord not likely to be making his attack on Kraj as scum, because iLord would most likely know that Kraj isn't going to crumble under pressure. And I have to agree with him...I've been finding it common for scum to go after the weaker players, especially on the first day, since it's much easier to build a case on them. The times they usually go after stronger players are when there's already a case on them, so they they don't have to actually build a case on them...only support it.
The thing that gets me in all this though is that first initial post. I just think it feels 'off' compared to his later posts. It could just be that since it was his first post, he was just gonna lay a small case down and then follow it up later, but he doesn't really do that much until iLord starts attacking him. I'm torn about him, especially since I'd much rather him be town than scum. I'm just gonna sit on the fence for now with him.
Yes. Seppel's playstyle is very erratic; he moves his vote a lot, changes his mind a lot, etc.
I'll take that into account then. I'm guessing that games with Seppel are often...'interesting', at least.
Well, basically, yes. It's sort of like, "who's the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that listens to the fool?" I found iLord's behavior to be scummy, but I found Nom's reaction to be much scummier, for the reasons I detailed in my last response to ZDS. There's nothing unusual about saying 'this player is scummy, but this player is scummier'; it's not even usual for players to say "both A and B are scummy, but probably not scum together", etc.
Enh, I still have a hard time believing you, though. I just find that, if one person is scummy, and some else follows that scummy staetment, it would make more sense, to me, to go after the initial scummy one. Then, if that person turns out to actually be scum, then you can go after player B, for following him.
It seems like the biggest problem people have with this post is that it looks like I should have voted iLord based on my descriptions of their behavior. All I can say about that is: the reason scum keep getting away with sitting quietly while loud townies lynch each other is... because people keep wanting to lynch the loud townies instead of scrutinizing the quieter players. Voting iLord would be doing exactly the opposite of what my read on Nom says I should do.
I would believe this more if you had actually thought, at that point, that iLord was town.
Really?
Let's look at that point:
Essentially, he's saying that when applying logic it's odd for someone to state their conclusion as what they "think" rather than what they know. And that's just... it's nonsense. My preceeding statement is that my suspicions of Nom don't apply if iLord is scum; it all hinges on whether I think iLord is scum or town. "But I think" isn't out of place, it's essential.
Ok, after reading it again, point taken.
OK, this is fair. My posts regarding iLord have been inconsistent on this, because things keep changing quickly. Regarding my post saying one of those two would be lynched: townies playing poorly often end up in situations where they become the best lynch in the town's eyes. At that point I hadn't made up my mind about whether iLord was scum or town, but I felt that his play would end up making him a top target today. I doubt iLord would deny that he has a knack for finding himself strung up early on regardles of his alignment.
But what's the point in saying it, really? Why were you so eager to find out which one of them were going to be lynched?
Regarding taking careful steps not to infer iLord is scummy in my rebuttal: you read that exactly correctly. Not to come across as arrogant or anything, but I have a knack at getting people who attack me with bad arguments lynched. When it comes to actually detecting scum in this game, I'm average-at-best. But I'm pretty darn good at ripping poor arguments to shreds, and if I think my attacker is scum I'm pretty darn good at convincing others their attack on me is scum-motivated. I tried very hard in my response to stay objective and not let my frustration with iLord color my opinion of his attack. That's a big part of why I chose not to make a extensive reply to his last post.
So yes, I did specifically avoid portrating iLord's attack as scummy, not because I was scared of being called OMGUS like iLord thinks, but because I don't want to be in a him-or-me scenario unless I'd like to see him lynched.
Ok. That's a reasonable point. I'm just glad to be done with all that long back-and-forth ranting the two of you were doing. It seemed to be going nowhere.
I'm not sure there is an exact point, more of a gradual progression. I think my initial read on his attack of me was that it seemed genuine, which is the first step in that direction. His response to my rubuttal was frustrating but equally seemed genuine; I just don't feel like he's making this up in an attempt to get me lynched, I feel like he has a read and is persuing me over it. It's possible he genuinely sees weakness he can capitalize on, but I don't buy that; it's too early, the basis is too weak, and iLord ought to know I'm not going to self-destruct under pressure.
As I stated earlier, I agree with your point about iLord...I don't think he's likely to attack you like that if he's scum. It seems too much like it'd be an uphill battle compared to other targets he could have gone after at that point.
So you're voting soneone whose thought pattern sounds legit and it ISN'T what he does as scum and it IS a normal nervous townie thing to do. BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE ONE TIME IN THIS ONE GAME THIS ONE GUY DID THIS ONE THING.
What I'm saying is that I don't think his retrospective explanations make sense. If he'd simply said "I freaked out because I thought I was going to be lynched" that'd make sense to me. But also saying that he was trying to call them out, or catch them in something, and also saying that he figured they voted him to get a reaction... it doesn't add up.
I hate getting back into this. I never said that I freaked out about them voting me initially, I just wasn't sure if it was an honest vote or not (I figured it was trying to get reaction from me, but I wasn't sure), and I was quite upset about them trying to get things to be so serious when half the town hadn't even show up yet. I voted myself because it was something I knew they weren't expecting (and would probably get a reaction from them), and I wanted to see what they would do in response. [/QUOTE]
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
You essentially say "if Kraj is scum then he could have written this post/these arguments". Well its true, but its irrelevant. If you want to prove Kraj is scum, you must show how he is scum [i]because of[/i] his posts and arguments. (I know you aren't calling him scum, I'm just helping you improve)
Oh, I know, that's why, like you said, I'm not actually calling him scum at this point. What I have right now are only theories.
[/quote]Scum more often play the part of the follower than that of the leader. They absolutely [i]love[/i] it when they can ride on a townie's faulty arguments: that townie shields them from attention and pressure, and will be an easy mislynch in the future.[/QUOTE]
That's true, but at that time, he wasn't sure whether iLord actually [i]was[/i] town or not. I guess I can see from your point, though, why he at least would have thought that Nom was [/i]more[/i] scummy.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
If someone claims that they are an unlynchable, unkillable, octa-voter, with 4 daykills and 6 doc-protects, then technically lynching that person solely based on his claim would be gaming the mod, but I would be just fine doing that.
@jskura: I just realized that you never actually addressed my question about why you were so upset that the Gamerz wagon propelled the game out of the random stage. Please do. Why do you care about this?
Oops, must have missed it somehow. RVS is meant for silliness, and that is what I saw from Gamerz. Especially with the interaction with Zebi. The fact that case came out of the random stage at him was just nonsense.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
I hate getting back into this. I never said that I freaked out about them voting me initially, I just wasn't sure if it was an honest vote or not (I figured it was trying to get reaction from me, but I wasn't sure), and I was quite upset about them trying to get things to be so serious when half the town hadn't even show up yet. I voted myself because it was something I knew they weren't expecting (and would probably get a reaction from them), and I wanted to see what they would do in response.
Your tone here sounds like genuine annoyance, and not defensive "why are you bringing up that thing that I tried to push into the background." I was overlooking that you were both unsure of their seriousness and suspected they may be prodding for reactions... that makes sense and isn't the contradiction I thought it was. Also, ZDS was right that I wasn't paying enough attention to the rest of your posts. Tunnel vision aside, Gamerz's recent posts do make me feel better about him.
Some thoughts:
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum.
Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
If you've played one game with someone, and they lurked as scum in that game, what makes you think they only lurk as scum, as opposed to all the time?
5. ZDS has been rather scummy to me. I don't like the way he's sitting back and taking on the inquisitor role, asking question after question and giving his own thoughts only occasionally. Is not asking questions a good way to seem involved on something without having to give his own position? (yes, I did intend the irony in phrasing that as a question)
ZDS always asks lots of questions.
6. Dragon Darts has seemed good to me. However, this might be me biased as he's been supportive of my side.
It is still awfully scummy that you chose not to comment on a matter as important as the Nom_Anor issue even though you don't have a neutral read on him, and so it is that you change(d) your mind so often about a single freaking post.
I commented when I had the read on Nom_Anor. You act as though I was holding back information, but that isn't the case at all. And yes, I've changed my mind a lot this game. It happens.
Oops, must have missed it somehow. RVS is meant for silliness, and that is what I saw from Gamerz. Especially with the interaction with Zebi. The fact that case came out of the random stage at him was just nonsense.
I don't want to delve into a theory debate about the random voting stage, but at some point it spins out into the real game because somebody posts something serious about something seemingly random. That's just how it works, and it's not something to get angry about.
Do you have any thoughts on who is scum/town, or anything that has happened yet this game? You are being just as unhelpful by lurking in plain sight as if you were lurking by not posting at all.
Huh... I just checked, and bman and WoD have both been online since they last posted here. And they've both posted in other mafia games and other game threads...
Jobie, we could use a modprod on bman and WoD if you haven't already done so.
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum.
Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
How about Cubus' game which we were both in (it is still ongoing and I'm still alive, so I'm not going to comment on my actual play during the game).
Also I'm not really lurking its just that I don't have anything further to add the discussion. I didn't really notice anything in the long back and forth between Kraj and iLord that clearly screamed to me that one or the other is scum.
In response to DD's question, the only thing that is annoying me right now is Nom and his "you lurk once as scum = you are scum because you are lurking now" comment.
@gamerz, I'm actually trying not to lurk as much however if I try and be someone who post a few times each day without any reason I end up with foot in mouth syndrome (see Basic#8).
Vote: Zebi. All I've seen you do is sit on fences in every post and pretty much provide none of your own in-depth personal insight on anything so far.
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum. Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
In response to DD's question, the only thing that is annoying me right now is Nom and his "you lurk once as scum = you are scum because you are lurking now" comment.
I don't like either of DragonDart or Bman's responses, because of Nom's above bolded part.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Well, this "whole focus" you now mention is kind of lost between all that tunnel visioning. All you really do is show how much you believe your explanations are better and closer to the truth than his, but you fail to show us why we should listen to you over him.
I'm trying to prove why his explanations don't make sense, which is basically explaining why you shouldn't listen to them.
Quote from Kraj »
As much as I'd like to feel vindicated by going around and around until I "win", right now I'm reading iLord as town and I don't think a text war would be particularly helpful right now. Even this post is going to be longer than I'd like to make right now. I'd much rather hear from the people who haven't commented on the situation yet, and I think that if there are parts of iLord's case that are important for me to respond to, it'll be because someone other than he or I brought it up.
As much as I'd like to disprove your prediction, I'll concede that becoming involved in a long text war will not be helpful. But cutting off the discussion so abruptly will prevent me from completing my analysis.
Looking over, there's only a few points that I especially feel warrant an explanation.
1. Why did you bring up the loud townie/scummy townie/quiet scum situation if you were going to mention that I didn't follow this pattern?
2. I believe that the "but" after your spew of logic indicates that your conclusion contradicts the reasoning given. Do you agree?
3. Why did you feel that they way I pressured Gamerz was scummy, with consideration to my recent responses?
That should be it.
Quote from Kraj »
Essentially, he's saying that when applying logic it's odd for someone to state their conclusion as what they "think" rather than what they know. And that's just... it's nonsense. My preceeding statement is that my suspicions of Nom don't apply if iLord is scum; it all hinges on whether I think iLord is scum or town. "But I think" isn't out of place, it's essential.
Quote from Kraj »
OK, this is fair. My posts regarding iLord have been inconsistent on this, because things keep changing quickly. Regarding my post saying one of those two would be lynched: townies playing poorly often end up in situations where they become the best lynch in the town's eyes. At that point I hadn't made up my mind about whether iLord was scum or town, but I felt that his play would end up making him a top target today. I doubt iLord would deny that he has a knack for finding himself strung up early on regardles of his alignment.
Quote from Kraj »
I'm not sure there is an exact point, more of a gradual progression. I think my initial read on his attack of me was that it seemed genuine, which is the first step in that direction. His response to my rubuttal was frustrating but equally seemed genuine; I just don't feel like he's making this up in an attempt to get me lynched, I feel like he has a read and is persuing me over it. It's possible he genuinely sees weakness he can capitalize on, but I don't buy that; it's too early, the basis is too weak, and iLord ought to know I'm not going to self-destruct under pressure.
That's hardly valid, considering Inheritance.
Quote from DD »
I don't really have a problem with Nom_Anor at this point. I think he's made some questionable points (saying that zebi looks good for panicking about a possible quicklynch when there's no more than 2 or 3 votes on anyone?; or that bman looks town because he lurked when he was scum once... nevermind it's still too early for that to really be the case), but I don't think those points are necessarily scummy, just... not insightful.
What about the discrepancy between his early vote and stated opinion of my case?
----------------------------------------
DD's Gamerz vote here is misplaced, but I can't find any scum motivation for doing so.
Quote from Seppel »
Yup.
I don't suppose I can ask you to say it? Just once for old times sake?
Quote from Nom_Anor »
Some thoughts:
1. I'm still suspicious of Gamerz. His post since last time didn't have anything jumping out at me, but it also did nothing to alleviate my suspicions.
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum.
Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
3. I still like Zebi. I'd appreciate him or her to not keep fence sitting, though.
4. I'm not really sure on Jsuka. I'm having a harder time reading him or her than expected.
5. ZDS has been rather scummy to me. I don't like the way he's sitting back and taking on the inquisitor role, asking question after question and giving his own thoughts only occasionally. Is not asking questions a good way to seem involved on something without having to give his own position? (yes, I did intend the irony in phrasing that as a question)
6. Dragon Darts has seemed good to me. However, this might be me biased as he's been supportive of my side.
You're not getting away without answering a question. Why did you vote me right after I made my case against Gamerz when you just told Kraj that you believe composing such a case is not scummy, but answering one is.
Pretty sure ZDS is always like this, but I don't really remember.
The bman comment stinks of wanting to find a easy target.
Quote from Gamerz »
Ok, after reading it again, point taken.
Kraj, you evil man. Misrepresenting my point and convincing people
Quote from DD »
Your tone here sounds like genuine annoyance, and not defensive "why are you bringing up that thing that I tried to push into the background." I was overlooking that you were both unsure of their seriousness and suspected they may be prodding for reactions... that makes sense and isn't the contradiction I thought it was. Also, ZDS was right that I wasn't paying enough attention to the rest of your posts. Tunnel vision aside, Gamerz's recent posts do make me feel better about him.
I don't like the first sentence. It feels way too much apparently like backtracking. I'll look to see if theirs more textual evidence later, but I'm a little pressed for time right now.
Quote from bman »
Also I'm not really lurking its just that I don't have anything further to add the discussion. I didn't really notice anything in the long back and forth between Kraj and iLord that clearly screamed to me that one or the other is scum.
It does not appear that you're reading.
Quote from Seppel »
I don't like either of DragonDart or Bman's responses, because of Nom's above bolded part.
I don't like Nom brining it up and attempting to use it a basis for suspicion because of the bolded part.
Quote from Nom »
Wait, so you were trying to get some discussion going by being hypocritical and getting called out on it?
Or you thought we'd discuss it and then notice the hypocrisy later?
I see very little sense being made here.
....Unvote
Vote: bMan
"Ooh, I see easy bandwagon on stupid player. Time to jump on it to alleviate suspicion on me!"
I don't suppose I can ask you to say it? Just once for old times sake?
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
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I don't suppose I can ask you to say it? Just once for old times sake?
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
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I don't suppose I can ask you to say it? Just once for old times sake?
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
I'M TOWN
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I'M TOWN
Also I'm not really lurking its just that I don't have anything further to add the discussion. I didn't really notice anything in the long back and forth between Kraj and iLord that clearly screamed to me that one or the other is scum.
So comment on what you think of the discussion. Or what you think of the people involved. You ARE lurking right now.
In response to DD's question, the only thing that is annoying me right now is Nom and his "you lurk once as scum = you are scum because you are lurking now" comment.
What question? And how is that the only thing annoying you if you are voting Zebi in this same post?
@gamerz, I'm actually trying not to lurk as much however if I try and be someone who post a few times each day without any reason I end up with foot in mouth syndrome (see Basic#8).
Try harder.
Vote: Zebi. All I've seen you do is sit on fences in every post and pretty much provide none of your own in-depth personal insight on anything so far.
Why did you make this vote, considering you knew you've been doing the same thing you're voting him for? Why should anyone vote him and not you? What type of discussion did you think would be spurred on by it?
I don't like either of DragonDart or Bman's responses, because of Nom's above bolded part.
See what iLord said about this above.
Zebi has actually done exactly what you've been accused of, and I don't like his OMGUS vote.
@Zebi:If you have "gut feelings," why aren't you mentioning any of them? If you're trying to "figure out" whether someone in the Kraj/iLord debate is scum, how's that working out for you? So far, you're all fluff.
I was trying to get some action and/or debate going.
Right now we have little to go on.
Yeah, towns really love it when players intentionally do something scummy for the sake of reactions. Take a look at the first few pages of Janus to see how well that worked out for me.
1. Why did you bring up the loud townie/scummy townie/quiet scum situation if you were going to mention that I didn't follow this pattern?
When did you stop beating your wife?
I posed two potential scenarios: 1. Nom is scum who chose to barn a bad attack being made by loud, scummy-looking iLord; 2. loud, scummy-looking iLord is scum. Why is this so difficult to understand?
3. Why did you feel that they way I pressured Gamerz was scummy, with consideration to my recent responses?
If I understand you correctly, you're asking why I felt your attack on Gamerz was scummy but not your attack on me. And that is a very good question.
Unfortunately my only answer is rather nebulous: both attacks were similarly agressive, but in my case it seemed like you geneuinely were probing the cracks in my statements whereas in Gamerz's case it seemed like you weren't even thinking about his responses; it felt more like you were applying pressure for the sake of applying pressure.
Kraj, you evil man. Misrepresenting my point and convincing people
If I had a clue what your point actually was, I wouldn't misrepresent it. My explanation was the only thing I could come up with that made any sense to me.
******************
There should be more votes on Nom.
Official barn: anyone who has said anything about finding DragonDart suspicious.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Jobie: Have you found a replacement for BigLlama yet?
So, everyone, we seem to have half a wagon and that's it.
The wagon I'm referring to is the one on me, of course, consisting of Kraj, iLord, ZDS, and possibly Seppel.
Now, the problem we have is there isn't another real wagon possibility, but mine is not picking up any speed--that is, my wagon is standstillish, and we don't have anything overcoming it in terms of popularity.
From my experience, a few things can happen here:
1. My wagon can pick up speed and I get to claim range, then either am lynched or the wagon dissolves after my claim.
2. My wagon gets no more support and dies out, either because we found someone else scummy or because everyone just decides I'm not worth lynching.
3. The game stalls, and I probably get lynched because nothing's happening and we get some kind of deadline.
No, understandably, I really want to avoid #3. Stalled out games are not fun, and it'll likely get my lynched cause there's nobody else to go on.
Now, obviously, from my point, #2 is the best. I don't get lynched and I don't have to claim, and we can go on to lynch someone who might be scum.
Still, #1 is far preferable to #3. At the very least, it forces people to take clear stances on me they can't weasel out of later, and I have a fair chance of living as well.
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting. If everyone could make a clear choice of either saying they think I'm scum and vote for me, or say they think I'm town, and suggest who they think would be a better target, then we can get out of this half-stalled state we're in and move on, one way or the other.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Sorry guys, modding my game + Modern Warfare 2 + trying to keep up with various other commitments = lack of activity.
Right now the players I find really scummy are DragonDart and Nom Anor.
I find Kraj and ZDS to be especially townie, and I lol'd when a wagon started to develop on Kraj. As he says, the wagon was ridiculous. I poked at Gamerz at first, to see if he'd panic and melt down, but from his reactions I'm pretty sold on him as Town too.
@Zebi:If you have "gut feelings," why aren't you mentioning any of them? If you're trying to "figure out" whether someone in the Kraj/iLord debate is scum, how's that working out for you? So far, you're all fluff.
I admit I'm all fluff. That's fine. It's my third game, and in all 3 games I have been really slow out of the gate getting reads on people.
Lots of town vibes from Kraj, iLord has kind of fallen off my radar. Don't really like Nom's latest post, any form of defeatism to me is a scummy tactic. Of course that's WIFOM, but that's how it seems to be for me.
Gamerz as I've said before is playing very townie, defending himself when appropriate. (See note on defeatism.)
ZeDork is 'meh' for me. Playing really aggressively trying to get wagons going early seems townish, but of course that could be WIFOM too.
The vote on bman was OMGUS to prove a point, as others pointed out. (Unvote). Hypocrisy needed to be pointed out and as someone in another game told me, my vote is my strongest voice.
Seppel is Seppel. Hard to get a read either way.
DD, also meh. Accusing people of lurking, being 'fluff', and interrogating people as to their votes, and voting Gamerz without any interrogation towards him.
Everyone else hasn't really posted enough at this point.
So, while I realize it's a bit early for this, my tentative list would be as follows:
Scum:
DragonDart
Nom
Leaning Scum:
ZeDork
bman (OMGUS. meh.)
Neutral:
WoD (no read.)
iLord
BigLlama (no read.)
jskura
Apparently, I misinterpreted this part of his post, as I thought he thought dC was scum. Ignore that part then.
----------------------------------------
But other than that, I'm not seeing any flaws in my reasoning. The only way his second post makes sense is if he's scum. Nom has to be lying, but so must Kraj. But they definitely don't both read scum, looking at Kraj's continued push.
Hmm. Now that I've sufficiently confused myself, I'm going to dwell upon it and figure out what I should be thinking.
Unvote
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Should be "first post" rather than "second post."
My Custom Set: Solescurio
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I'm done doing that.
Because of Kingmaker?
--------------------------
Results from my mulling over - unsurprisingly, I need more information and both Kraj and Nom's responses could make it obvious which one of the two is scummier. As it stands, it turns out my initial conclusion that Nom_Anor is more likely to be lying stands true. I can't see his mindset shifting so quickly from his initial criticism on my "laundry list."
Vote: Nom_Anor
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I'll sum things up again after Kraj's response, but the whole focus of my attack has been trying to explain why he's making up these explanations.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I don't really understand what iLord is talking about at this point... maybe it'll make sense after Kraj posts and he responds... looking at his first few posts, it seems like he just changed his mind quickly.
@zebi: We're now well past the random phase. Feel like participating yet?
@Wrath_of_Dog: So, now that you've successfully voted someone during the random stage, then unvoted, what are your plans for the future?
Oh, and to whoever asked if this is how Seppel always plays. Yes. Emphatically, yes.
Yes. Seppel's playstyle is very erratic; he moves his vote a lot, changes his mind a lot, etc.
Regarding iLord's last response:
This.
This.
And this.
As much as I'd like to feel vindicated by going around and around until I "win", right now I'm reading iLord as town and I don't think a text war would be particularly helpful right now. Even this post is going to be longer than I'd like to make right now. I'd much rather hear from the people who haven't commented on the situation yet, and I think that if there are parts of iLord's case that are important for me to respond to, it'll be because someone other than he or I brought it up.
Case in point:
Well, basically, yes. It's sort of like, "who's the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that listens to the fool?" I found iLord's behavior to be scummy, but I found Nom's reaction to be much scummier, for the reasons I detailed in my last response to ZDS. There's nothing unusual about saying 'this player is scummy, but this player is scummier'; it's not even usual for players to say "both A and B are scummy, but probably not scum together", etc.
It seems like the biggest problem people have with this post is that it looks like I should have voted iLord based on my descriptions of their behavior. All I can say about that is: the reason scum keep getting away with sitting quietly while loud townies lynch each other is... because people keep wanting to lynch the loud townies instead of scrutinizing the quieter players. Voting iLord would be doing exactly the opposite of what my read on Nom says I should do.
Really?
Let's look at that point:
Essentially, he's saying that when applying logic it's odd for someone to state their conclusion as what they "think" rather than what they know. And that's just... it's nonsense. My preceeding statement is that my suspicions of Nom don't apply if iLord is scum; it all hinges on whether I think iLord is scum or town. "But I think" isn't out of place, it's essential.
OK, this is fair. My posts regarding iLord have been inconsistent on this, because things keep changing quickly. Regarding my post saying one of those two would be lynched: townies playing poorly often end up in situations where they become the best lynch in the town's eyes. At that point I hadn't made up my mind about whether iLord was scum or town, but I felt that his play would end up making him a top target today. I doubt iLord would deny that he has a knack for finding himself strung up early on regardles of his alignment.
Regarding taking careful steps not to infer iLord is scummy in my rebuttal: you read that exactly correctly. Not to come across as arrogant or anything, but I have a knack at getting people who attack me with bad arguments lynched. When it comes to actually detecting scum in this game, I'm average-at-best. But I'm pretty darn good at ripping poor arguments to shreds, and if I think my attacker is scum I'm pretty darn good at convincing others their attack on me is scum-motivated. I tried very hard in my response to stay objective and not let my frustration with iLord color my opinion of his attack. That's a big part of why I chose not to make a extensive reply to his last post.
So yes, I did specifically avoid portrating iLord's attack as scummy, not because I was scared of being called OMGUS like iLord thinks, but because I don't want to be in a him-or-me scenario unless I'd like to see him lynched.
What precisely is your issue? I've already explained my reasoning in great detail, so please be specific. I'll also point out "binary" does not apply here. While my logic does create some alignment dependancies, binary is literally "either A or B is scum" and that's not the case at all. If Nom is lynched, for instance, and comes up town then binary logic says iLord must be scum. I said no such thing.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I didn't mean an "alignment binary" (one scum, the other not), but a "today's lynch" binary (either Nom_Anor or iLord will be lynched today), which is what you said. You clarified this a bit in your latest post. You said you thought one of the two of them would be lynched today because loud townies playing badly have a tendency to get lynched, and you think iLord was doing that (or rather, he was just loud and playing badly, and you were unsure of his alignment). So... why is Nom_Anor included in that statement?
I'm not sure there is an exact point, more of a gradual progression. I think my initial read on his attack of me was that it seemed genuine, which is the first step in that direction. His response to my rubuttal was frustrating but equally seemed genuine; I just don't feel like he's making this up in an attempt to get me lynched, I feel like he has a read and is persuing me over it. It's possible he genuinely sees weakness he can capitalize on, but I don't buy that; it's too early, the basis is too weak, and iLord ought to know I'm not going to self-destruct under pressure.
I read it the same way (as I mentioned in my response). iLord initially throwing it in my face, then considering it, backing off, but resuming/maintaining his suspicion after re-evaluating; it all looks townie to me.
I had a feeling you were referring to that but you specifically said my first post, so confusions.
Why is Nom_Anor included? Because I think he's scum who did exactly what I read him as doing, and it looks like several other people also think he's scum. Between my vote on him and my statement thinking he's a likely lynch, he responded and two other people had already said how much they disliked his response. It certainly looked/looks to me like he was/is going to be a top lynch candidate today.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I thought it was in your first post, but I was going by memory. Sorry for the confusion.
I thought I had a point here... but it seems I simply don't. I don't like when people pare the game down to a choice between two options, but I think that's not actually what you intended to offer, just what you predicted happening.
Unvote
@jskura: I just realized that you never actually addressed my question about why you were so upset that the Gamerz wagon propelled the game out of the random stage. Please do. Why do you care about this?
He seems to have a problem communicating clearly, but so far his responses to iLord and Kraj seem reasonable to me. I had a similar reaction to Gamerz's early responses to iLord's case, that he was a bit defensive, considering the massive 2-vote "wagon" he was facing when he decided he needed to vote himself to get them to stop voting him and also to "call them out" for... trying to get a reaction... which is what he said he was doing.
And now that I think about that again... it's still bothering me. It reminds me a lot of iLord's play at the beginning of Song of Ice & Fire, where Axelrod prodded him about some early action (no idea what it actually was) and he got worked up trying to explain why he did it to the extent that it became clear he was covering it up for the sake of covering it up.
Vote Gamerz
Yup.
Eat me.
So you're voting soneone whose thought pattern sounds legit and it ISN'T what he does as scum and it IS a normal nervous townie thing to do. BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE ONE TIME IN THIS ONE GAME THIS ONE GUY DID THIS ONE THING.
No.
Unvote, vote DragonDart
Looking over Nom_Anor got me to look over Gamerz's early stuff, which I'd had reservations about earlier (I think I posted about it too). And this feels stronger to me than anything on anybody else. I don't take notes, and I go with my suspicions when they come to me (unless I feel there is a strong, specific reason to wait until later). I don't take notes, and sometimes it takes me a while to process things.
I said I didn't have a problem with N_A, not that I agreed with him. Or are you talking about something else?
I haven't played any games with him as scum, so I don't know "what he does as scum" (as though people always do the same thing as scum anyway).
What I'm saying is that I don't think his retrospective explanations make sense. If he'd simply said "I freaked out because I thought I was going to be lynched" that'd make sense to me. But also saying that he was trying to call them out, or catch them in something, and also saying that he figured they voted him to get a reaction... it doesn't add up.
The bit about iLord is there to help get across what I'm seeing. The explanations Gamerz gave for the self-vote changed as people questioned him, and they contradict each other.
@ZDS: I've read Gamerz's other posts, but it's the contradictions at the beginning that are bothering me. .
I still can't decide what's up with Lord/Nom/Kraj. Kraj's posts feel very town to me, not sure why - just a gut. Right now, all I have is gut feelings, and none of them are strong enough to warrant a vote.
I'm just trying to decide whether you guys are the generic loud townies that get themselves into trouble early, or if there's real suspicion going on.
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You said you were missing something. What are you missing?
I know. That's what my other post was for.
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#145.
Unless I completely missed your point about the explaining bit, that was my explanation.
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Huh. I realize I'm the one pushing the 'loud townies get lynched' thing, but I'm surprised to see you jumping onboard with the idea almost verbatim. What made you decide to incorporate the idea of 'loud townies' into your analysis?
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I don't post every reaction I have to every post. You'll just have to take my word for it on this one.
Because there's 4 people all talking a lot, and noone else is doing much. It seems like a valid point in this game specifically.
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1. I'm still suspicious of Gamerz. His post since last time didn't have anything jumping out at me, but it also did nothing to alleviate my suspicions.
2. WHERE THE ? IS BMAN? It's been several days, and now he's either forgotten about the game or is lurking. Like when he lurked in my basic game. When he was scum.
Not a great sample size, but as he has at least some history of lurking as scum, it's something to note. Anyone else been in a game with him?
3. I still like Zebi. I'd appreciate him or her to not keep fence sitting, though.
4. I'm not really sure on Jsuka. I'm having a harder time reading him or her than expected.
5. ZDS has been rather scummy to me. I don't like the way he's sitting back and taking on the inquisitor role, asking question after question and giving his own thoughts only occasionally. Is not asking questions a good way to seem involved on something without having to give his own position? (yes, I did intend the irony in phrasing that as a question)
6. Dragon Darts has seemed good to me. However, this might be me biased as he's been supportive of my side.
Zebi & DragonDart for scumbuddies.
And neither are you.
I would not put this as scummy for ZDS. This is ZDS at his finest, able to evade anyone's attempt to get a good read on him. This is how he acts at both town and scum. He is a master of hiding the tell.
Yeah, but in his first post, he doesn't actually provide all that much reasoning for Nom and iLord's scumminess (most of the second paragraph is talking about 'loud townies and quiet scum') but then goes into great detail after that. It just seems like he was trying to spread suspicion and then, when he got called on it, then he explains more.
I think it's quite possible that he could be making them up. Kraj seems like a very intelligent person who is quite capable of speaking his mind in great detail. I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for him to make up these arguments on the fly.
As for why? Well, I think what could have been happening is that he initially calls iLord and Nom out...making sure that, like iLord noticed, that he's got a foot in both wagons. His post not long after about Nom and iLord being the likely lynch at that point still feels to me like there's too much 'glee' in what he perceives to be the endgame for the day. Not to mention that it seems like it's way too eaerly to even be making that sort of statement...it feels like he's saying this as a way to try to get everyone to go along with it because it seems so 'obvious'. I will say, though, that he could just be an arrogant townie, feeling confident that, not only does he have a good read, but that others are going to follow along with it (which does match his later statement that he feels he's very good at picking apart poor arguments...not to mention that he actually does seem like he's very good at it).
Anyways, moving on, after iLord's attack on him, his next post, he seems to be backing off about iLord being scum at that point, and in subsquent posts, mentions only Nom as being the scum, seeming to think that iLord is town now. It feels like he could have decided, 'You know what? I think I'll have an easier time going after Nom than after iLord', but still responds to iLord, because, well, he still has to defend himself.
Do I feel that this is likely? Well, I definitely feel like it's a possibility, but let's look at the flipside...like I said, his post regarding Nom or iLord being the lynch could just be him being arrogant, feeling his points should stand against either of them. Regarding his switch to iLord being town, I like his point about iLord not likely to be making his attack on Kraj as scum, because iLord would most likely know that Kraj isn't going to crumble under pressure. And I have to agree with him...I've been finding it common for scum to go after the weaker players, especially on the first day, since it's much easier to build a case on them. The times they usually go after stronger players are when there's already a case on them, so they they don't have to actually build a case on them...only support it.
The thing that gets me in all this though is that first initial post. I just think it feels 'off' compared to his later posts. It could just be that since it was his first post, he was just gonna lay a small case down and then follow it up later, but he doesn't really do that much until iLord starts attacking him. I'm torn about him, especially since I'd much rather him be town than scum. I'm just gonna sit on the fence for now with him.
I'll take that into account then. I'm guessing that games with Seppel are often...'interesting', at least.
Enh, I still have a hard time believing you, though. I just find that, if one person is scummy, and some else follows that scummy staetment, it would make more sense, to me, to go after the initial scummy one. Then, if that person turns out to actually be scum, then you can go after player B, for following him.
I would believe this more if you had actually thought, at that point, that iLord was town.
Ok, after reading it again, point taken.
But what's the point in saying it, really? Why were you so eager to find out which one of them were going to be lynched?
Ok. That's a reasonable point. I'm just glad to be done with all that long back-and-forth ranting the two of you were doing. It seemed to be going nowhere.
As I stated earlier, I agree with your point about iLord...I don't think he's likely to attack you like that if he's scum. It seems too much like it'd be an uphill battle compared to other targets he could have gone after at that point.
Hahaha, yep. Definitely entertaining.
I hate getting back into this. I never said that I freaked out about them voting me initially, I just wasn't sure if it was an honest vote or not (I figured it was trying to get reaction from me, but I wasn't sure), and I was quite upset about them trying to get things to be so serious when half the town hadn't even show up yet. I voted myself because it was something I knew they weren't expecting (and would probably get a reaction from them), and I wanted to see what they would do in response. [/QUOTE]
Oh, I know, that's why, like you said, I'm not actually calling him scum at this point. What I have right now are only theories.
[/quote]Scum more often play the part of the follower than that of the leader. They absolutely [i]love[/i] it when they can ride on a townie's faulty arguments: that townie shields them from attention and pressure, and will be an easy mislynch in the future.[/QUOTE]
That's true, but at that time, he wasn't sure whether iLord actually [i]was[/i] town or not. I guess I can see from your point, though, why he at least would have thought that Nom was [/i]more[/i] scummy.
Oops, must have missed it somehow. RVS is meant for silliness, and that is what I saw from Gamerz. Especially with the interaction with Zebi. The fact that case came out of the random stage at him was just nonsense.
Your tone here sounds like genuine annoyance, and not defensive "why are you bringing up that thing that I tried to push into the background." I was overlooking that you were both unsure of their seriousness and suspected they may be prodding for reactions... that makes sense and isn't the contradiction I thought it was. Also, ZDS was right that I wasn't paying enough attention to the rest of your posts. Tunnel vision aside, Gamerz's recent posts do make me feel better about him.
If you've played one game with someone, and they lurked as scum in that game, what makes you think they only lurk as scum, as opposed to all the time?
ZDS always asks lots of questions.
That's a terrible reason to think anyone is town.
I commented when I had the read on Nom_Anor. You act as though I was holding back information, but that isn't the case at all. And yes, I've changed my mind a lot this game. It happens.
I don't want to delve into a theory debate about the random voting stage, but at some point it spins out into the real game because somebody posts something serious about something seemingly random. That's just how it works, and it's not something to get angry about.
Do you have any thoughts on who is scum/town, or anything that has happened yet this game? You are being just as unhelpful by lurking in plain sight as if you were lurking by not posting at all.
Jobie, we could use a modprod on bman and WoD if you haven't already done so.
How about Cubus' game which we were both in (it is still ongoing and I'm still alive, so I'm not going to comment on my actual play during the game).
Also I'm not really lurking its just that I don't have anything further to add the discussion. I didn't really notice anything in the long back and forth between Kraj and iLord that clearly screamed to me that one or the other is scum.
In response to DD's question, the only thing that is annoying me right now is Nom and his "you lurk once as scum = you are scum because you are lurking now" comment.
@gamerz, I'm actually trying not to lurk as much however if I try and be someone who post a few times each day without any reason I end up with foot in mouth syndrome (see Basic#8).
Vote: Zebi. All I've seen you do is sit on fences in every post and pretty much provide none of your own in-depth personal insight on anything so far.
I don't like either of DragonDart or Bman's responses, because of Nom's above bolded part.
Darn I thought it'd take more than one response to arrive at that conclusion.
Right now we have little to go on.
Or you thought we'd discuss it and then notice the hypocrisy later?
I see very little sense being made here.
....Unvote
Vote: bMan
I'm trying to prove why his explanations don't make sense, which is basically explaining why you shouldn't listen to them.
As much as I'd like to disprove your prediction, I'll concede that becoming involved in a long text war will not be helpful. But cutting off the discussion so abruptly will prevent me from completing my analysis.
Looking over, there's only a few points that I especially feel warrant an explanation.
1. Why did you bring up the loud townie/scummy townie/quiet scum situation if you were going to mention that I didn't follow this pattern?
2. I believe that the "but" after your spew of logic indicates that your conclusion contradicts the reasoning given. Do you agree?
3. Why did you feel that they way I pressured Gamerz was scummy, with consideration to my recent responses?
That should be it.
That's hardly valid, considering Inheritance.
What about the discrepancy between his early vote and stated opinion of my case?
----------------------------------------
DD's Gamerz vote here is misplaced, but I can't find any scum motivation for doing so.
I don't suppose I can ask you to say it? Just once for old times sake?
You're not getting away without answering a question. Why did you vote me right after I made my case against Gamerz when you just told Kraj that you believe composing such a case is not scummy, but answering one is.
Pretty sure ZDS is always like this, but I don't really remember.
The bman comment stinks of wanting to find a easy target.
Kraj, you evil man. Misrepresenting my point and convincing people
I don't like the first sentence. It feels way too much apparently like backtracking. I'll look to see if theirs more textual evidence later, but I'm a little pressed for time right now.
It does not appear that you're reading.
I don't like Nom brining it up and attempting to use it a basis for suspicion because of the bolded part.
"Ooh, I see easy bandwagon on stupid player. Time to jump on it to alleviate suspicion on me!"
No.
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Pressed for time. More later - Nom's still scum.
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Ahh, that felt good.
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Ahh, that felt good.
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Ahh, that felt good.
Hypocritical statement is hypocritical. Coming in after 5 posts (at the time) and calling someone out for their posting quality is not very pro-town.
If you wanted to call someone out on their posts, why didn't you mention the others who haven't said much?
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Nom (3) - Kraj, ZDS, iLord
Bman (2) Nom_Amor, Zebi
Gamerz (1) - DD
Seppel (1) - Biglllllama
DD (1) - Seppel
Not Voting: Bman, Gamerz, WoD, Jskura
Prod on WoD on its way out.
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So comment on what you think of the discussion. Or what you think of the people involved. You ARE lurking right now.
What question? And how is that the only thing annoying you if you are voting Zebi in this same post?
Try harder.
Why did you make this vote, considering you knew you've been doing the same thing you're voting him for? Why should anyone vote him and not you? What type of discussion did you think would be spurred on by it?
See what iLord said about this above.
Zebi has actually done exactly what you've been accused of, and I don't like his OMGUS vote.
@Zebi:If you have "gut feelings," why aren't you mentioning any of them? If you're trying to "figure out" whether someone in the Kraj/iLord debate is scum, how's that working out for you? So far, you're all fluff.
@Nom_Anor: What do you think of Zebi?
Yeah, towns really love it when players intentionally do something scummy for the sake of reactions. Take a look at the first few pages of Janus to see how well that worked out for me.
Why aren't more people voting Nom? This is scummy scum scumchestertonfieldville.
I don't find bman particularly scummy, and I think the tells people are pointing out are rather weak.
When did you stop beating your wife?
I posed two potential scenarios: 1. Nom is scum who chose to barn a bad attack being made by loud, scummy-looking iLord; 2. loud, scummy-looking iLord is scum. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I disagree. And I don't think the arguments you made to support this point made any sense at all.
If I understand you correctly, you're asking why I felt your attack on Gamerz was scummy but not your attack on me. And that is a very good question.
Unfortunately my only answer is rather nebulous: both attacks were similarly agressive, but in my case it seemed like you geneuinely were probing the cracks in my statements whereas in Gamerz's case it seemed like you weren't even thinking about his responses; it felt more like you were applying pressure for the sake of applying pressure.
If I had a clue what your point actually was, I wouldn't misrepresent it. My explanation was the only thing I could come up with that made any sense to me.
******************
There should be more votes on Nom.
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So, everyone, we seem to have half a wagon and that's it.
The wagon I'm referring to is the one on me, of course, consisting of Kraj, iLord, ZDS, and possibly Seppel.
Now, the problem we have is there isn't another real wagon possibility, but mine is not picking up any speed--that is, my wagon is standstillish, and we don't have anything overcoming it in terms of popularity.
From my experience, a few things can happen here:
1. My wagon can pick up speed and I get to claim range, then either am lynched or the wagon dissolves after my claim.
2. My wagon gets no more support and dies out, either because we found someone else scummy or because everyone just decides I'm not worth lynching.
3. The game stalls, and I probably get lynched because nothing's happening and we get some kind of deadline.
No, understandably, I really want to avoid #3. Stalled out games are not fun, and it'll likely get my lynched cause there's nobody else to go on.
Now, obviously, from my point, #2 is the best. I don't get lynched and I don't have to claim, and we can go on to lynch someone who might be scum.
Still, #1 is far preferable to #3. At the very least, it forces people to take clear stances on me they can't weasel out of later, and I have a fair chance of living as well.
So I think we should either get this wagon on me started, or we should all back off and go back to scumhunting. If everyone could make a clear choice of either saying they think I'm scum and vote for me, or say they think I'm town, and suggest who they think would be a better target, then we can get out of this half-stalled state we're in and move on, one way or the other.
Right now the players I find really scummy are DragonDart and Nom Anor.
I find Kraj and ZDS to be especially townie, and I lol'd when a wagon started to develop on Kraj. As he says, the wagon was ridiculous. I poked at Gamerz at first, to see if he'd panic and melt down, but from his reactions I'm pretty sold on him as Town too.
Bman's late vote on Gamerz is hilariously bad.
I admit I'm all fluff. That's fine. It's my third game, and in all 3 games I have been really slow out of the gate getting reads on people.
Lots of town vibes from Kraj, iLord has kind of fallen off my radar. Don't really like Nom's latest post, any form of defeatism to me is a scummy tactic. Of course that's WIFOM, but that's how it seems to be for me.
Gamerz as I've said before is playing very townie, defending himself when appropriate. (See note on defeatism.)
ZeDork is 'meh' for me. Playing really aggressively trying to get wagons going early seems townish, but of course that could be WIFOM too.
The vote on bman was OMGUS to prove a point, as others pointed out. (Unvote). Hypocrisy needed to be pointed out and as someone in another game told me, my vote is my strongest voice.
Seppel is Seppel. Hard to get a read either way.
DD, also meh. Accusing people of lurking, being 'fluff', and interrogating people as to their votes, and voting Gamerz without any interrogation towards him.
Everyone else hasn't really posted enough at this point.
So, while I realize it's a bit early for this, my tentative list would be as follows:
Scum:
DragonDart
Nom
Leaning Scum:
ZeDork
bman (OMGUS. meh.)
Neutral:
WoD (no read.)
iLord
BigLlama (no read.)
jskura
Leaning Town:
Seppel
Town:
Kraj
Gamerz
First time I've ever done that. Yay.
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